---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  fermentation controller (Poris)
  Cani Sugar in Blegian brews ("Scott Nichols")
  Steam injection (Kevin Fogarty)
  AD: Free brewer's unit conversion software (Brian Dixon)
  Oxynator Question ("Ed Krach")
  Yeast sporulation ("Arnold J. Neitzke")
  Liquid Nails and Polystyrene ("MrWES")
  RE: Really big batches. ("S. Wesley")
  re: Wyeast 1968 (Sharon/Dan Ritter)
  Nip (Kyle Druey)
  skunkiness (Jeff Renner)
  Re:  Styrofoam working tip (Ken Schwartz)
  Skunking in a glass... (Some Guy)
  Technoweenius extremis (michael w bardallis)
  Re: Attitudes and The Man Who Knew Too Much (irajay)
  When is Homebrew not Homebrew? (Thomas Lowry)
  Logical fallacies (Harlan Bauer)
  Belgian Beers and Candi Sugar (Tom Wolf)
  Calculating percentage recipe, CO2 scrubing (Michael Rose)
  How bad is a really long protein rest? (Stephen Jorgensen)
  Yeast Ranching Questions (Kyle Druey)
  Racking arm ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Eisbock's ("Brad McMahon")
  candied vs table sugar? (kathy)
  bashing (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Charlie Papazian - The Full Monty? (Doug Kerfoot)
  Fruit Beers and Attitudes ("Eric R. Tepe")


BUZZ's Buzz-Off competition is June 27-28. Information is available at
www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff or via R. Mattie at
rpmattie at voicenet.com. 


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:08:16 EDT
From: Poris at aol.com
Subject: fermentation controller

   I want to control my fermentation temperature in my basement without
constant monitoring and switching of frozen jugs in the summer and (at this
time) without a dedicated refrigerator (ales not lagers).  Because I have
converted kegs capable of  batch sizes over 5 gallons, I did not want to use 5
or 6 gallon buckets so I purchased a HDPE, FDA approved, white Rubbermaid
Brute 10 gallon container (Cole-Palmer) as a fermentation vessel.  This way I
only need one temperature controlled fermentation system for batches up to 8
gallons or so. 
    My idea is to get a plastic garbage can (32 gallons is a common size),
place the 10 gallon fermentation vessel inside and fill up the garbage can
with water to a level close to the fermentation vessel liquid level.  This
will increase the thermal inertia of the system (good I think) and allow me to
leave my fermentation vessel undrilled.  My basement is pretty cool in the
summer (75F maximum) and not so cold in the winter (50F minimum).  Even with
the thermal inertia of the system, I am guessing that I will probably
experience temperature swings of at least 10F over the period of a week.  I
have been re-examining the specifications for thermoelectric coolers (TEC).
These are solid state devices that can act as heat pumps with the application
of a DC voltage.  One side can be made hotter or cooler than the other side by
applying a potential across the junction.  One side will be thermally coupled
to the water in the garbage can and the other side will be connected to a
large aluminum heat sink outside the garbage can.  An integrated circuit
temperature sensor (National Semiconductor LM34 or 35) can be used to monitor
and control the temperature of the system (it puts out 10mV per F or C).  It
will be thermally conductive epoxied to the end of a bolt through the garbage
can wall relatively close to the TEC.  A DC voltage (determined by the desired
temperature setpoint) from a 10 position switch or pot on the output of a
voltage regulator can be summed  with the output of this sensor and multiplied
and fed to the input of a unity gain power amplifier chip (National
Semiconductor LM12).  The input voltage to the power amp is from -150mV to
+150mV (a range of 30F).  The input voltage is 0.0 volts when the temperature
is at the setpoint, positive when the temperature exceeds the setpoint and
negative when the temperature is below the setpoint.  The voltage applied to
the TEC from the output of the LM12 will range from -12 volts to +12 volts.
The amount of heat added or removed from the side coupled to the garbage can
will be proportional to the temperature difference.  I think this system will
be able to control the fermentation to within +/-2F for the whole year.  The
system also requires a standard 10 amp, 15 volt bipolar power supply.
Probable total parts cost is around $140 (surplus electronics stores).
 Here are some questions:

 -I could not find a reference to this specific TEC application and do not want
to re-invent the wheel, has this been documented over the last few years
anywhere?  They sell TEC coolers that run off your car battery, but I don't
want to buy one (no fun), are the wrong shape and cannot heat.

 -Based on my limited experience with aquarium coolers, I am guessing that 30
to 50 watts should be adequate to shift the temperature of 15 gallons or so
within the limited range that I will experience in my basement in a reasonable
time, I don't think I will need to add or subtract more than about 10F.  Any
comments on this capacity, I can get units up to 80 watts.  I could also use
multiple units if necessary which may allow me to get down to lager
temperatures with adequate insulation.

 -I will use a 1/4-20 3" bolt for mounting the temperature sensor.  SS or
brass?  My guess is that the relatively low  thermal conductivity of SS will
still be adequate for this short distance from the liquid to the sensor, any
guesses?

 -Any guesses about how much heat is generated by primary fermentation that
will add to my heat pumping requirements during cooling?

 -I am hoping that liquid convection will be adequate for heat transfer within
the garbage can.  I guess I will mount it about 1 foot from the bottom of the
can to get convection with cooling or heating.  Any suggestions?

 -I guess I will insulate the garbage can  to maintain the setpoint
temperature and minimize power consumption as well.  Any simple ideas for
this?

 -Some TEC vendors have a minimum order of $100.  Anyone know who sells these
units individually?  If not, I may splurge and buy 4 or 5 and hope they work!

Thanks in advance,
Jaime (Santa Cruz Mountains, Northern California)



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 20:29:22 -0600
From: "Scott Nichols" <snichols at digitech.com>
Subject: Cani Sugar in Blegian brews

Mike Spinelli writes:

>If candi sugar ferments completely as does dextrose, sucrose, etc,
>then what's the purpose of it? 
>I mean if the candi sugar imparts a flavor unobtainable 
>with malt than I could see using it, but if it's just to bump up the 
gravity then why 
>not just use more malt?

Candi sugar is used in Belgian ales to increase the alcohol content 
without resulting in a "heavy" beer. 

If you simply used more malt the resulting beer would be more like a 
barley wine than a Belgian ale. This is because malt does not ferment 
completely and the residual complex sugars that are left after fermentation
 result in a fuller beer.

Sugar is also used because Belgian ales are hopped with aged hops 
resulting in a less bitter beer. If you used all malt the resulting beer 
would be too sweet.

Scott Nichols


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:32:55 -0500
From: Kevin Fogarty <fogarty at sky.net>
Subject: Steam injection

Bill Macher asks about ways to inject steam into the mash.

I've tried injection into the grain bed a few times, and it accomplished
the temperature rises well. One problem is that if I left the copper
loop in the grain bed during rests wort would fill in through the steam
holes and when I turned the steam back on there would be a ferocious
hammering in the tubing. I believe the steam injection loop must be
removed and allowed to drain during rests.

I will be very interested to see what people think about injecting steam
into the circulation line.
- --
#############################################
Kevin Fogarty Firefighter/Paramedic
Kansas City, Kansas Fire Department
IAFF Local 64      fogarty at sky.net




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Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:50:58 +0100
From: Brian Dixon <mutex at proaxis.com>
Subject: AD: Free brewer's unit conversion software


Just letting people know that there's a free brewer's unit conversion
utility at http://www.proaxis.com/~mutex.  Click on the link for the
products page and look for "Craft Brew Unit Converter", click Download Now
at the bottom of the page.

Have fun!
Brian

PS: Here's the description from the web site:

- --
Craft Brew Unit Converter
FREE. Craft Brew Unit Converter is a simple utility that includes the
following systems of units: 

Belgian 
British, UK and Imperial as appropriate 
United States, Avoirdupois and others as appropriate 
Metric and SI 

Types of measurements that can be converted include dry weight, liquid
volume or capacity, temperature, grain/wort/beer color systems, and liquid
density (degrees Plato and specific gravity). You'll find a full range of
measures from the tiniest to the very largest, including rare and unusual
units that can't be easily found elsewhere. 

In addition, Craft Brew Unit Converter includes an extensive built-in help
system, including sections on the different measurement systems of the
world and a huge data dictionary that includes much history, trivia, and
conversion information in itself! 




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 01:50:23 -0600
From: "Ed Krach" <Ed.Krach at usa.net>
Subject: Oxynator Question

Just a couple of questions Oh Home Brew Gurus from a first time poster
 (long time lurker).

1.  Anyone who has used the Oxynator from Liquid Bread care to comment on
 the results of a couple 15 second bursts of pure Oxygen compared sloshing
 the bucket around.  I'm currently aerating by slowly pouring 3 gallons of
 pre-chilled water into my primary (plastic) fermentor from a height of
 about 5 feet.  

2.  I saw this question previously, but not an answer.  Is the oxygen in
 those propane style canisters available in Home Depot and the like the
 same as the one's sold with the Oxynator.  These canisters cost $7 at Home
 Depot as opposed to $16.45 from Liquid Bread.

Thanks for all the great tips over the years!

Ed Krach
Beer Forsaken Provo, Utah

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 06:48:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Arnold J. Neitzke" <neitzkea at frc.com>
Subject: Yeast sporulation

George DePiro touched on this one but I found more info when I was reading
this book from our local library and ran across this. 

On page 287 of the "Encylopedia of Beer", it says under "Lager" (talking
about ale yeast), "If the temperature of the ferment drops much lower
(than 58F), the yeast goes into a state of hibernation, building a cyst
around itself in a process called sporulation"

Gee, I guess Al K. isn't the only one that can reply to old posts!

_________________________________________________________
Arnold J. Neitzke     Internet Mail: neitzkea at frc.com
Brighton, Mi          CEO of the NightSky brewing Company
- ---------------------------------------------------------




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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 07:27:31 -0400
From: "MrWES" <killshot at enteract.com>
Subject: Liquid Nails and Polystyrene

We have a product here in the US that's called "liquid nails". It's applied
like a silicon caulk with a caulking gun. I have built a polystyrene
fermentation chiller and used liquid nails -- the unit is very solid.

Bill


<snip>
Have seen a lot of chatter about building insulated fermenters, cold
boxes and the like of late.

I haven't followed it closely, so at the risk of repeating, I'll pass on
a "tip" that made life easier for me.

I am very fond of Styrofoam (polystyrene, cellplast, frigolit, etc.) as
an insulating material.  The biggest problem with working with it, is
joining it to stuff.

Regular glues of all sorts just melt it.  The special glue made for it
is messy, horribly expensive, and likely pretty toxic.

I learned this trick from a builder, and am forever grateful....

The stuff that you lay tile on (and here I don't know the English
word... it's not "grout", but the goop you make a furrowed pattern in to
actually "glue" the tile to the intended surface.... ok we'll call it
"tile goop") works great!

I've done the walls of my cellar in one of my fermentation rooms, was
pretty liberal with it at first, but it turns out you just need a
"patch" for each corner of the intended sheet (slap it there with a
putty knife), press it in place, and it stays there!

It fills uneven surfaces, works on wood as well (a la cellar door), is a
snap to work with and doesn't cost much.

On roofs, it's probably good to have some support until it dries, but on
walls, it is viscous enough to just slap the sheet up, and your done!

I did that room a year ago and it's still sitting solid as a rock
despite the (quite heavy, and sometimes unsteady) traffic.

Dr. Pivo (gawd, I like things that work.)




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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 08:59:58 -0700
From: "S. Wesley" <sWesley at maine.maine.edu>
Subject: RE: Really big batches.

Dear Scott,
	I have been helping a friend of mine who has limited financial 
resources start a brewery here in Maine.  We just bought him a plot of 
land and hope to start construction on his Brewery/House towards the 
end of the summer. The idea is to make it so that he gets both his 
residential and commercial space for the price of a normal mortgage 
payment. (This will not violate local zoning laws)
	The brewery will be constructed out of modules each of which will 
have a capacity of a bit over a barrel (55 gal). The idea is to make it 
so that we can expand capacity as needed without having to completely 
resize the system. Initially we will probably run with two modules, but 
we have materials to build three. Because of limitations on chilling 
capacity we will have to stagger the mashes by about an hour. 
	The modules will be standard three tier gravity fed setups.  Each 
of us has a 100 litre system at present so we will use the two pairs 
of 100 litre kettles from the old systems as HLT's for the new system and 
55 gal kettles.  The mash tun is still a subject of debate.  Paul wants 
to continue using large rectangular coolers with mainfolds (two for each 
module) I suspect this may not be kosher with health authorities as the 
coolers are not technically food grade, and I do not think they are 
robust enough to stand up to the heavy use they will see. Each HLT will 
have one 175 kBTU ring burner and the kettle will have two. The HLT's are 
positioned above the kettles in a frame built out of uni-strut.  The mash 
tuns will be positioned on tables to the side.  
	Normally we do step infusion mashes, but I am seriously 
considering building a RIMS setup in order to reduce the labor necessary 
to operate the systems.  One idea I was playing around with would be to 
buy a small gas hot water heater and a recirculating pump for hot water 
baseboard heat and build the RIMS using a counterflow heater.  Another 
idea would be to take my old immersion chiller and put it into a pot on a 
small gas burner and make the heating equivalent of a canister chiller. A 
third option would be to heat water to a specific temp in one HLT and 
gravity feed into the kettle in a counterflow arrangement. I plan to do 
some tests on these ideas over the summer. One other idea I would like to 
try is getting a really powerful pump and running the RIMS in reverse 
with a collection manifold on the top returning through the manifold at 
the bottom of the cooler.  This might allow for high flow rates and 
eliminate the need to worry about grain bed compaction. Next time I 
finish sparging I may try this out to see how it works on a bed of spent 
grain.
	For chilling I have been using a 50' long 1/2" copper tube inside 
a garden hose. I have done tests with it which indicate that this 
geometry will be able to chill one barrel batches fast enough to suit me 
 - less than ten min. (In my experience rapid chilling has a pronounced 
effect on the hop aroma of a beer so I am not prepared to go the JS 
route:-))  I am fortunate to have ground water that never goes above 50F 
and costs the price of pumping it out of the ground.  I actually plan to 
rebuild the chiller as copper in copper so we can recycle the cooling 
water back into the HLT's for the next brewing session.  This will 
preheat the water somewhat, reduce the load on the septic system and 
reduce the electric bill for running the well. 
	The fermentation setup is a three tier arrangement also. We will 
be using 20 Gal food grade plastic barrels. Some people may be horrified 
at the the idea of using plastic, but I bought my first set of ten 
plastic fermenters from a commercial brewery in Boston which makes good 
quality beer, and I have been using them successfully for a year now with 
no problems. The primary is on top, the secondary is below that and the 
tertiary is below that. The bottom of the tertiary is high enough to 
allow for racking into either a Hoff-Stevens Keg or a Firkin.  
	I've enjoyed spending the past year playing around with the 100 
litre system but in a sense I am really looking forward to passing the 
whole mess over to Paul so I can go back to doing lots of three gallon 
batches. Prior to this year I usually brewed about 125 gallons a year. 
brewing a different recipie almost every week. This year had to stop 
because I was about to reach our 200 gal legal limit after a few months. 
I decided to start recruiting guest brewers to keep brewing without 
breaking the law. (Granted the chances of getting caught are nil, but 
since we are planning to go commercial I figure it is better not to cross 
over the line) Several friends who have recieved multiple soda or pin 
kegs of beer over the last year were delighted to have an opportunity to 
try their hand at brewing. Some have come back more than once and most 
indicated a desire to do it again. One guy custom brewed a Hoff-Stevens 
keg of beer as a birthday present for a beer loving friend. Most of these 
people would probably never have tried brewing even a five gallon extract 
beer on thier own, so I was glad to have the opportunity to provide them 
with a new experience. I got a number of good suggestions from these 
folks, and having them around made me a lot more conscious of safety 
issues that I might otherwise have ignored. 
					Regards,
					Simon


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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 07:48:09 -0600
From: Sharon/Dan Ritter <ritter at bitterroot.net>
Subject: re: Wyeast 1968

>Jeff York wrote of Wyeast 1968:
>>Flavors are metallic and sour/lactic
>> - similar to a young plambic exposed to untreated steel.  Blech!  This is
>>really annoying because now I've got 10 gallons of the stuff. Any advise,
>>similar experiences, etc?

Richard Johnson replies:
>I too experienced a sour flavor in an ESB when using this yeast, but my
>fermentation temps spiked to 76 degrees during the primary and I assumed
>this was the reason. Now I have another that has been fermenting for almost
>3 weeks and is still bubbling about every 10 seconds. This time my temps
>have been a constant 68 degrees. It tasted fine when racked to the secondary
>but SG was still 1.024.

I use 1968 as my standard ale yeast and I can't remember a sour tasting
batch (fruity, yes!). I keep the primary fermentation temp. at 68-70 F. and
repitch the yeast from batch to batch. This ensures that I am pitching
LARGE quantities of yeast. I also aerate with pure O2. Primary fermentation
is usually over in three days with attenuation in the 70% range. Because
this strain is highly flocculant, some have advised rousing the yeast
several times during fermentation but I've never found it necessary. A
three week primary that is still going, and a SG of 1.024 (even considering
this ESB's starting gravity could be as high as 1.060), makes me suspect
that the yeast is not behaving as it should. I would suspect inadequate
aeration, yeast quantity at pitching too low, or fermentation temp. is too
cold.


Dan Ritter <ritter at bitterroot.net>
Ritter's MAMMOTH Brewery - Hamilton, Montana




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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 19:27:03 -0700
From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net>
Subject: Nip

jbm writes:

>I'm using a malt mill with adjustable rollers. The rollers are stainless 
>steel with longitudinal grooves...standard stuff. What are the
>recommended spacings of the rollers for various types of grains?

This is a good question, and one that has been discussed little on the
HBD.  It seems to me that the critical factors are the type of malt, the
size of the kernels, and the modification of the malt.  I think the
common one size fits all gap width, or nip, is 0.045" to 0.055".  Here
are some differences I have found:

Malt Type - 2 row and 6 row crush differently.  I don't know if it is
the higher husk content of the 6 row, but it seems to need a tighter
nip.  Munich and 2 row crush differently.  I am sure others can think
many more examples.

Kernel Size - wheat malt has a smaller kernel size than barley malt, and
neededs a tighter nip (as I believe 6 row does?).

Malt Modification - If you are not careful you can crush some brands of
Maris Otter malt so as to produce a stuck lauter, but crushing GW 2 row
at the same nip produces an excellent lauter with good extraction. I
haven't experimented enough with this one to know exactly how to handle
this factor, but it seems that a coarser crush can be used with highly
modified malt.

In general, start off with a wide nip and carefully tighten it with each
pass.  Start with 0.07" to 0.08" for the first pass, notice how the
grain "feels" as it passes through the rollers and is being crushed. 
Does it feel "hard" as it goes through, does it "explode", is it
"dropping" through without even being cracked, etc.  This will tell you
how tight to make the second pass.

What are the experiences of others?

Kyle
Bakersfield, CA


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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:13:12 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: skunkiness

Scott Abene <skotrat at wwa.com> asked:
>And on a side note... When exactly can a beer skunk? Directly after the boil
>is chilled or only after fermentation has taken place? <snip>
> My guess is only after fermentation has completed
>but I really have nothing to back that up...

Since the skunkiness is caused by a change in the molecule of isomerized
alpha acid, I can't think why it couldn't happen any time after the boil.

Someone (Scott again?) recently expressed doubt that beer could skunk in
the glass in the sun.  It certainly can.  Several years ago after a
softball game, the other team and we were discussing the finer points of
softball at a local beer garden and the pitcher of Molson's (or was it
LaBatt's?) skunked in bright sunshine on the table between the first pour
and the second!  The moral, we concluded, is to drink your beer fast!
(You'd never have known that this was a church league!).

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:18:14 -0600
From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com>
Subject: Re:  Styrofoam working tip

Dr. Pivo offers some good advice for working with Styrofoam.  He
suggests gluing with tile adhesive, great idea.  My experience with
building Chillers has been using "Liquid Nails", which I think would be
much cheaper and doesn't "dissolve" the Styrofoam like the other glues
he mentioned to avoid.  Also, cutting the material can be tricky, even
with a knife, if you're trying to get straight, square edges.  I use a
power saber saw and cut by eye (draw a straight line first with a
Sharpie).  This makes a square cut if you rest the saw on the panel and
cutting slowly keeps the line straight.  Don't use a circular saw, since
it's too heavy to control in the soft material (though you could cut
flat against a scrap panel of plywood to support it).

*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
kenbob at elp.rr.com
http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer


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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:27:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Skunking in a glass...




On Sat, 20 Jun 1998 Jeff Renner wrote:

> Since the skunkiness is caused by a change in the molecule of isomerized
> alpha acid, I can't think why it couldn't happen any time after the boil.
> 
> Someone (Scott again?) recently expressed doubt that beer could skunk in
> the glass in the sun.  It certainly can.  Several years ago after a
> softball game, the other team and we were discussing the finer points of
> softball at a local beer garden and the pitcher of Molson's (or was it
> LaBatt's?) skunked in bright sunshine on the table between the first pour
> and the second!  The moral, we concluded, is to drink your beer fast!
> (You'd never have known that this was a church league!).

Jeff is correct! Beer will skunk in the galss, as Rich Byrnes can attest
to during our great Orval Brew of, what? 1995? After the boil, too; 
though the particulates in the wort probably protect it from too much
damage. But wait! There's more! I think skin acids can prepare hop oils
for skunking. Roll your hands around in some hop pellets, then go to work
in the sun. In a little while, your hands will smell like you've wrestled
a pole-cat! 

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:10:43 -0400
From: dbgrowler at juno.com (michael w bardallis)
Subject: Technoweenius extremis

John writes:

"Talking about ad-nauseam, strange behavior, and the BJCP exam: I have
come
up with a novel way of studying the myriad styles defined by the BJCP
(69!). I produced .wav files of each style's OG, IBUs, Color, description
and commercial examples and then burned them onto a CD. Now I can listen
to
them in my car, at my desk, and anytime I can't spend actually studying.
(To maintain my sanity, I electronically altered my voice so it does not
sound like I am talking to myself)."

Wow. I've created a .wav file of the above, burned it onto a CD, and I
play it for my friends when they tell _me_ I'm taking this "beer thing"
too far....

Mike "Clearly, only moderately geeky" Bardallis
Allen Park, MI

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:46:23 +0000
From: irajay at ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Attitudes and The Man Who Knew Too Much

For the life of me, I can't imagine what I said that could have 
*pissed off* Sam Mize as much as he is.  I actually thought my 
comments were conciliatory.   Whatever the case, I think, as with 
Sam, that this should be my last comment on the matter as well.  I 
don't think it's good for him to keep getting worked up like this.

Ira


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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 10:04:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Thomas Lowry <lowry at me.pdx.edu>
Subject: When is Homebrew not Homebrew?

Maybe this has been covered here before and if it has, feel free to dump
on me all you want, BUT.....
I was talking with another homebrew friend of mine and we started to
wonder when does homebrewing stop being homebrewing and become a
something other than homebrewing?  We were speaking specifically of a
mutual acquaintance who, in our minds, has taken his homebrew 'hobby' to
another level with the purchase of thousands of dollars of professional
equipment (it was a great bargain for him though).

Some possible definitions might be:
1. If it is brewed at home, it is homebrew, if not...it isn't.
2. If I brew over a certain volume per/year, I am no longer a homebrewer
(I know some states set limits here, but aside from that).
3. If I invest 'X' amount of dollars (fill in the blank), I cease to be a
homebrewer.
4. If I invest 'X' amount of time (same here), I cease to be a homebrewer.
5. If I sell (legal or not) my beer, I am no longer a homebrewer.

So with questions like this, how do we define homebrew and homebrewing?
I am interested is hearing how we, as homebrewers define ourselves, not
the legal definition of homebrew.

Bubbling away,
Tom L.



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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:39:22 -0500
From: blacksab at midwest.net (Harlan Bauer)
Subject: Logical fallacies

Someone wrote:

>How many times have 
>you seen a post that begins:
>...
>*With the permission of the gods of home brew, I come to you on my knees 
>to humbly ask my ignorant question.....*

NEVER! Is this a quote? There seem to be quotation marks...

This whole discussion is becoming rather troubling to me. If we have a gripe
with the HBD, then we can discuss it rationally without resorting to all
kinds of name calling and deceptive assertions. If there is a point to be
made, great, give me quantitative data to support the position. The above
quote contains at least the following logical fallacies, not to mention bare
assertion and hyperbole:

1. Faulty generalization
2. Impressing by large numbers, aka, bandwagoning
3. Popular appeal, aka, ad populum
4. Forestalling disagreement, aka, poisoning the well
5. Creating misgivings
6. Misuse of humor and ridicule
7. Emotive language
8. Faulty generalization
9. Leading questions
10.Begging the question
11.Oversimplification

Let me end by stating two specific data points--1.) I greatly enjoy the very
posts that have been in question; 2.) People like Al Korzonas have patiently
fielded beginner questions in plain and simple language for many years on
the HBD.    

If anyone cares to respond to this post, please do so via private e-mail and
I will collate the results and post the quantitative data. 

Thank you,
Harlan Bauer

"It would be a very good thing if every trick could receive some short and
obviously appropriate name, so that when a man used this or that particular
trick, he could be reproved for it."

                                             --Schopenhauer 



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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 10:56:54 -0600
From: Tom Wolf <wolfhrt at ibm.net>
Subject: Belgian Beers and Candi Sugar

George De Piro writes: "The sugar ferments completely, producing alcohol
but contributing no body or malt flavor."  Others wonder is the suger
adds to the creamy head, but get the same answer.

Anyone who is going to attempt a strong belgian beer should keep in mind
that the addition of sugar will will affect the amount of malt sugars
left behind in the beer. 
Here is a "thought experiment". Brew two side by side batches, identical
except for the addition of copious sugar to one batch.  Imagine a
starting gravity of 1.060 with out the sugar and the use of an
attenuative yeast. Add sugar to increase the gravity of batch 2 to
1.080.  Now we can imagine that the 1.060 batch will ferment down to
around 1.015 and be somewhat dry in character if we have done right by
the yeast. Now in theory the batch with the sugar should end at a lower
apparent specific gravity if all that happened was that the added sugar
was completely converted to alcohol. The beer would be very dry and
alcoholic.

What actually hapens is that as the alcohol rises in the sugared batch
the abilities of the yeast are compromised.  They can no longer do the
same enzyme magic on all of the complex sugars so more complex malt
sugars and different fermntation products end up in the beer.  If the
such a batch ended at 1.020 most brewers would be happy.  In many cases
1.030 would be the outcome. It is a real challange to get a high alcohol
beer to end up as dry as a Trappist Tripel. The outcome will be sweeter
foamier and have a lot of taste that the unsugared bach lacks.
   
Now I know that things may be different in the real  world.  Add enough
healthy yeast of the right kind to the 1.080 batch and it will ferment
out dry.  But imagine what will happen to the 1.060 batch with the that
same yeast pitch!  

Tom in California - Ever trying to make a dry trippel.


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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:04:17 -0700
From: Michael Rose <mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Calculating percentage recipe, CO2 scrubing

In a percentage type recipe, such as;
	
	90% 2-row
	5% wheat
	5% cystral 

Do you calculate the grist by the weight of the malt or by the points of
sugar that each malt contributes?

	2nd question. I've read alot about CO2 scrubing out aromas during
primary fermentation. I'm thinking about toasting some 2-row, mashing
with a little 6-row and adding it to the secondary instead of the
primary. Would there be any benefit in preserving the toasted aroma or
would I be wasting my time? 

	TIA   Michael Rose  Riverside, CA   mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net


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Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 16:16:07 -0500
From: Stephen Jorgensen <sjorge2 at uic.edu>
Subject: How bad is a really long protein rest?

>     Can anyone lay down for me the chemical consequences of a
> much-too-long protein rest? I recently step-mashed 10 lbs of Maris Otter
> Pale, and due to not having my water ready to bring it up to
> saccharification temp (doh!) the stuff was at ~120F for about an hour.
> Five hours and three teaspoons of powdered amylase later ( at  150-155F ph
> 5.2) I finally achieved complete conversion. I was asleep on my feet by
> the time I pitched the yeast and spaced off taking an S.G., but it
> finished at 1.004(six gallon batch size).  I plan to throw in an
> infusion of about 1/4lb carapils to sweeten it up a bit, and I think it
> will probably end up a pretty decent brew but I can't help wondering
> what was going on in the mash.  Did the protein rest damage the grain's
> diastatic power in some way? I suppose with Maris Otter I didn't need to
> do one at all, but I have this clarity fetish...
>
> Thanks in advance for your info,
> Stephen Jorgensen
> sjorge2 at uic.edu





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Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 03:31:28 -0700
From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net>
Subject: Yeast Ranching Questions

I have some questions to the collective regarding yeast culturing.

1)  Usually some condensation forms on the inside of a culture tube
after it has been sterilized, filled with sterile media, cooled, capped,
then placed into the fridge to solidify (this is all before innoculating
with yeast).  Does this pose any problems?

2)  After innoculating the slant, most of my yeast form little white pin
dots.  These dots expand until they grow into each other, but the yeast
never form a consistent while layer.  Is my yeast ruined?

3)  I just recultured some 6 month old slants.  When I opened the
culture tube the yeast smelled terrible (hey Fouch, know anything about
bad yeasty type smells?).  I decided to use this to innoculate anyway. 
Is my yeast ruined?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Kyle Druey
Bakersfield, CA

glad the Bulls dynasty is over, and that Pippen will now be subject to
life without Michael...


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Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 07:28:56
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: Racking arm

>3)The biggest drawback with a racking arm is that you will have to invest in
>a TC valve ($135 - $150) and a few TC fittings. This TC clamp allow fairy
>good seal while the arm is rotated to lower the liquid inlet. 

What about a racking arm made using a compression fitting instead of the
pricey TC fittings?   Take a 1/2" NPT male x 3/8" tubing compression
fitting and bore it out so the 3/8" tubing (the racking arm- bent to L
shape) passes completely thru it.  Secure the fitting to the fermenter with
a 1/2" nut liberated from a female fitting and some washers and a gasket-
kinda like a bulk head fitting.  Loosen the compression fitting a bit to
rotate the racking arm.

It wouldn't be as easily sanitized as one made with TC fittings, but, it's
a hellva lot less expensive (or cheaper, depending on your point of view).


c.d. pritchard cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:24:13 +0930
From: "Brad McMahon" <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Eisbock's

>From: Philip J Wilcox at CMS on 06/18/98 09:38 AM

>Well, after polling my local collective I still haven't found anyone
>who has actually made an Eisbock themselves. So I will look to the
>great collective for advice.

>Suggestions? Advice? Comments? Has anyone else tried this process?

No, I haven't, but if you do, be very careful who you tell.
In the U.S. (and most places around the world) distillation
by fractional crystallization is illegal.

Specifically for you, it is defined in 26 U.S.C. 5002(a)(80)(A).

 It is unlawful to produce any distilled spirits at a place other 
than a qualified distilled sprits plant. To do so would subject the 
producer to the penalties of 26 U.S.C. 560l.

The penalties are a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment
for not more than five years, or both, for each offence.

I grabbed this info from Annie Proulx & Lew Nichols'
book "Cider" which  has a chapter in the back on the
legalities of production and selling. Making Eisbock
and making Applejack is using  the same process.

Talk to your local BATF office for more details, I guess.

Which poses the question: Why is it an official
AHA catagory if it is illegal to make?
Or am I missing something?

Still, (pun intended) I'd like to know what
your theoretical outcome is to that theoretical
batch that you mentioned. :-)

>Phil Wilcox
>Sec/$er/Editor/Webguy of the Prison City Brewers

Please don't end up in Prison, they don't serve beer,
especially eisbock!





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Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 10:04:52 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: candied vs table sugar?

Its Father's Day and as my beautiful daughters are grown with their own
families, my wife left me to do as I please.  I read three back issues
of the HBD, opened a Belgium Triple I'd brewed, made breakfast of a cold
cut souse sandwich (souse=a garlicly, gelatinist lunch meat from heaven
to a German sausage maker) and then did what us fathers do best and
mowed the lawn.  Started a rye pilsner, planted the minature cattail my
wife had given me for my water garden, watched a robin take a bath, fed
the goldfish and finished the rye pilsner.  Life is good even if the TV
still talks about Monica and Starr.  I'll post this and play a rubber of
computer bridge.

To those self appointed scolds of the HBD.....try any or all of the
above.  If you must post criticisms...try messages that start with "I am
bothered by comments that say ...........    Most of us don't want to
package our comments in wrappings that put off readers, and will (may)
change our intros.  

Now a beer question.....when making a B. triple.....does the use of a
candied sugar merely slow the fermentation as opposed to adding table
sugar, and is that the main reason for the candied strings?  I assume
the darkening from caramelized sugar would be an additional reason for
the doubles.  Are there other factors involved?

cheers, jim booth, lansing, mi  chief sanitarian of aching knees brewery



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Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 13:21:37 -0700
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: bashing

Although I have been enjoying the AHA bashing, seeing Paul's thinly
veiled Al bash upset me.  A lot of good comments have been made, but I'd
like to pipe up with an irony that struck me.  

If the real concern here is not to drive away newbies, one should note
that Al is the *only* person here who consitantly answers these newby
questions over and over and over.  (I for one don't know how he has the
patience.  Every single digest I want to respond to some post with
either "did you bother to read the last 3 digests because your question
was just answered" or "check the FAQ, dude".)  Even if you don't like
his style I suggest you scan a few months' digests and subtract his
posts and see how it looks.  How will newbies feel about the digest
then?  BTW, while you're at it, scan a few digests from 5 years back and
check out who was helping then too.
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jeremybb


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Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:54:26 -0400
From: Doug Kerfoot <dkerfoot at macatawa.org>
Subject: Charlie Papazian - The Full Monty?

I was sorting through some old junk the other day and came across a
rather remarkable set of photos.  They are from my ex-sister-in-law's
bachelorette party.  On her lap is a male dancer who appears to be none
other than our own Charlie Papazian.

Check 'em out at  http://www.macatawa.org/~dkerfoot/  and let me know
what you think...


Doug Kerfoot



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Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 23:11:19 -0400
From: "Eric R. Tepe" <erictepe at fuse.net>
Subject: Fruit Beers and Attitudes

First, I am proud to take some bandwith with my comments, being as I
dont make many and usually ask questions, but on the subject of fruit
beer and rasberries I have used the Oregon Fruit Puree with great
success.  I just used the cherry puree in an ale and was not impressed
at all.  The raspberry gives a lot of flavor and is commerically
sterile, also use pectinase with this as it produces a clear beer.  They
make a whole range of products that you can buy in bulk and split with
your homebrew club.  I believe thier web address is
http://www.oregonlink.com/fruitbeer.  Secondly, as a newer all grain
brewer I really look forward to AlK, Jethro, Sam Mize, George DePiro and
a host of others that usually post to this forum, to learn as much about
this craft/hobby as I can. Is it Too much information on the subject?
Well, I am not much into water chemistry or belgian beers, but I do
enjoy learning about hops, malt, and various other problems that others
have had so I might not make those same mistakes.  So, if you don't want
to read a post I really believe you have a page down key on your
computer keypad.

Eric


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