---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: EstroHops (Paul Ward)
  question of respiration (Domenick Venezia)
  RE: yeast ranching questions (Hutch)
  Welcome new posters 2749 (Samuel Mize)
  Nettles in beer (Hutch)
  Old Wyeast Viability ("Gregory A. Lorton")
  Respiration---again (Christopher W Kafer)
  BACKLOG - don't quote more than you have to! (Al Korzonas)
  Style Series books, teflon ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Videos/CDs ("Michael O. Hanson")
  Saint Feuillen (Jorge Blasig - IQ)
  Hops and Kraut (Jesse Krusemark)
  Attitudes ("Kevin R. Martin")
  re: Summer Yeasts ("Chris Carolan")
  Is this the HBD or what? (Charles Hudak)
  re: Estrohops (Jesse and Meegan Benbow)
  Heineken (Brew Rat)
  RE:Citrus Notes/Anchor Steam Clone/Eisbock in VA/Beer Bullets ("Marc Battreall")
  Clear bottles, skunky, Corona (Ari J{rm{l{)
  Labelling laws ("Brad McMahon")
  Flights of Homebrew ("Buchanan, Robert")
  Re: re: skunk smell ("Mark Nelson")
  Cherries, Secondary fermentation ("David Johnson")
  Beer Color, Equipment (BrwyFoam)
  Skunk-proof beer / Roller mill spacing (George_De_Piro)
  Burro Urine (Kyle Druey)
  Quit Bitchin' / RIMS...the final froniter (Mike Spinelli)
  re: skunk smell (Tom Alaerts)
  Kubessa process question (George_De_Piro)
  Stout history; corriander; hop pests; hops FAQ (Doug Moyer)
  heating element temp ("Ludwig's")


Have you entered a MCAB qualifier yet?


NOTE NEW HOMEBREW ADDRESS:  hbd.org 

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.) 

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. 
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
**ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!! 
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
  the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!

For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to brewery at hbd.org

Homebrew Digest Information on the Web: http://hbd.org

Requests for back issues will be ignored. Back issues are available via:

  Anonymous ftp from...
	ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests
	ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

  AFS users can find it under...
        /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:34:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Paul Ward <paulw at doc.state.vt.us>
Subject: Re: EstroHops

In HBD 2749 Alan Meeker offered:

> Greetings. This week's Science News contains an article on research into
> herbal-based remedies for menopause-related hot flashes. Specifically,
> they were looking at the ability of various naturally-derived substances
> to bind the receptor for the hormone estrogen, the decline of which is
> thought to underlie the symptoms associated with menopause. Here's an
> interesting excerpt: "Hops also showed estrogenlike binding, and so might
> mimic the hormone, a finding that fits with folklore about hops workers,
> she added. Men who worked in the hop fields were said to suffer from a
> lackluster libido, whereas female field hands were said to be sexy."

To which I reply (sorry about the BW):

	If you find your sex drive flagging,
	And you no longer feel like bragging,
	And you just can't stand the nagging,
	Then have another beer!

	If you're tired of all the ragging,
	About your parts a-sagging,
	And you know that tongues are wagging,
	You deserve another beer!

	So if you feel like gagging,
	Over all those needs now lagging,
	And your lower lip is dragging,
	Could it be the beer?

GAWD, I HOPE NOT!



Paul in Vermont
paulw at doc.state.vt.us

- -- 
According to government height/weight charts,
I'm seven and a half feet tall.


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:00:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: question of respiration


In HBD 2749 "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com> quotes
two different dictionary definitions of "respiration" then says:

>So by definition 1 the utilization of oxygen for the biosynthesis of
>sterols is respiration. By definition 2 the anaerobic fermentation of
>glucose is still respiration.
>
>Authorities should try to be more specific in their language to avoid
>making it even more difficult to come to the truth of the matter. To
>simply state "Yeast do not respire in wort" is in error.

I hesitated to respond to this obvious troll, but thought that it might
be taken seriously and thereby cause confusion.

Dictionary definitions, even medical dictionaries, are not technical
volumes and list common, simple definitions.  Respiration, as has been
discussed in the context of the HDB, refers specifically to "cellular
respiration", not gross inspiration or expiration, or cutaneous
respiration like some salamanders, or breathing through the eyeballs like
some Zen masters.

Quite specifically it refers to the aerobic oxidation of pyruvic acid into
carbon dioxide and acetyl-CoA thence through the Krebs cycle yielding
cellular energy in the form of ATP and more CO2.  The Krebs cycle is also
known as the tricarboxylic acid cycle (TCA) also known as the citric acid
cycle.  Since it is a cycle there is no endpoint, but the last step in the
cycle before starting again is formation of citric acid - hence one of the
names.  Cellular fermentation and cellular respiration both share the
process called glycolysis in which glucose is metabolized to pyruvic acid
without the use of molecular oxygen.  Fermentation processes the pyruvic
acid into CO2 and ethanol, and respiration processes the pyruvic acid into
CO2 and ATP. 

The point of the "yeast do not respire" post was that in a solution of
greater than ~0.4% (any wort) yeast utilize glucose through fermentation
and NOT respiration even in the presence of molecular oxygen (the Crabtree
effect).  They only use the oxygen for the biosynthesis of sterols to
stabilize their cell membrames.  Yes, they must absorb it to use it, but
absorbtion is NOT cellular respiration. 

As previously posted in the deep, dark past, I suspect that the
evolutionary reason for the Crabtree effect is that given a rich source of
food, that is, high concentrations of glucose, it is in the yeast's best
interest to metabolize it quickly yet inefficiently into alcohol to out
compete other organisms for the food supply.  In the presence of molecular
oxygen yeast will then metabolize the ethanol through respiration to yield
more cellular energy.  Essentially, it is a great strategy to convert a
rich source of food into what is a poison for your competitors, then later
and at your leisure use the poison as food.

This is why aerating late in the fermentation is a bad idea.  The
reprocessing of ethanol results in all sorts of stuff that shouldn't be in
your beer because it tastes horrid.

Domenick Venezia   demonick at zgi dot com



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:04:18 -0400
From: Hutch <kahlua at intrepid.net>
Subject: RE: yeast ranching questions

>Subject: Yeast Ranching Questions

>1)  Usually some condensation forms on the inside of a culture tube
>after it has been sterilized, filled with sterile media, cooled, capped,
>then placed into the fridge to solidify (this is all before innoculating
>with yeast).  Does this pose any problems?

As for your questions, here is a bit of information from several
sources, BT March/April 1997, and an ATCC workshop on yeast culturing.
You can draw your own conclusions.

To sterilize your work area use a 10% solution of clorox (in a spray 
bottle), and then a 70% alcohol solution to wipe everything down.

The procedures for preparing an agar slant should include: Boil the
agar/wort mixture until the agar has dissolved, then fill (1/3) the
vials. Pressure cook them (with the caps on loosely) for 20 min at 
15 psi to sterilize the vials and their contents. When the pressure
cooker has cooled but is still warm to the touch remove the the vials,
and carefully prop them at an angle until they solidify.
Then go ahead and inoculate your slants.  After letting the slants 
incubate for a few days at room temperature 23-25c
(avoid placing the cultures in direct sunlight), check the culture.  
If it looks ok tighten the cap and wrap in saran wrap, and 
then store in the refrigerator (4 degrees C) for up to 3-4 months.

>2)  After innoculating the slant, most of my yeast form little white pin
>dots.  These dots expand until they grow into each other, but the yeast
>never form a consistent white layer.  Is my yeast ruined?

Doesn't sound like it.  The yeast doesn't need to cover the entire
area in the slant.  What you should be checking for is any 
discoloration or a fuzzy look.  The culture should have a uniform
smooth creamy white appearance.  Anything else should be discarded.

>3)  I just recultured some 6 month old slants.  When I opened the
>culture tube the yeast smelled terrible (hey Fouch, know anything about
>bad yeasty type smells?).  I decided to use this to innoculate anyway. 
>Is my yeast ruined?

Anytime you get something that doesn't seem right, culture up some
and check for the things listed above.  That should give you your
answer.  

In a side note, for those of you wanting to store your cultures at
room temp. for up to 2 years.  Use the procedures for storing your 
cultures in sterile distilled water, BT March/April 1997.  Once
you have a good slant transfer a little yeast to a solution of
distilled water using the methods above.  Cap and shake the vial,
the yeast should settle out as a thin white film on the bottom,
and last for as long as 2-3 years.

Also, you can check the back issues of BT May/June 1995, for an
article on how to build a laminar flow hood for as little as $100

Good luck  Hutch <>


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:03:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at ns1.imagin.net>
Subject: Welcome new posters 2749

Welcome to the new (in '98 anyway) posters in HBD 2749: William E. Steimle,
Rob Vermeulen, Rod Schaffter, Nathaniel P. Lansing and David Rinker!

Sam Mize


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:29:08 -0400
From: Hutch <kahlua at intrepid.net>
Subject: Nettles in beer

I am looking for some beer recipes that include Nettles (Utrica
dioica, U.chamaedryoides, or U. urens).
Does anyone have any old recipe books that might include 
this ingredient?


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:50:31 -0700
From: "Gregory A. Lorton" <glorton at cts.com>
Subject: Old Wyeast Viability

A week or two ago, there was a thread about whether old Wyeast packs were
any good.  Here's another data point.

Brewing a lambic, I pitched an American ale yeast for primary, and am
getting ready to pitch Wyeast's Belgian Lambic Blend (#3278) into secondary
with a bunch of raspberries and other goodies.  The lambic blend was dated
July 16, 1997 when I bought it on June 18, last week... 11 months old.  I
brewed on Sunday, June 21, and figured that I had better smack the lambic
blend that evening so that it's ready in seven days when I rack into
secondary.  Well, as of this morning (Thursday, June 25), the pack is fully
puffed up and ready to go.  (If the primary would only go faster!!!)  Of
course, this is the lambic blend, so who knows which of the thousand
species of bugs in there are really active.  But then again it's a lambic.

This more or less confirms a rule of thumb that I've experienced:  divide
the age of the yeast in months by two or three to figure how many days in
advance to smack the pack, and then add a day for the starter.  These older
yeasts always seem to respond faster than Wyeast's recommendation of one
day for each month of age.

Greg Lorton
Brewing in Carlsbad, CA
(Hiding from Charles Hudak at the QUAFF homebrew club meetings.  See ya
Sunday, CH!)



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:58:26 -0500
From: Christopher W Kafer <ckafer at iastate.edu>
Subject: Respiration---again

First a suggestion, if you want to talk about biochemical definitions it
might be a good idea to invest in a biochemistry text and not refer to
Webster.  Respiration, when used correctly, does not mean what you have
quoted.  

Respiration is an ATP generating process in which an inorganic compound
(such as O2) serves as the ultimate electron acceptor.  The electron donor
can be either an organic or inorganic compound.   Fermentation is an ATP
generating process in which organic compounds act as both donors and
acceptors of electrons.  Fermentation can occur in the absence of O2.
(Stryer, Biochemistry 4th ed, 1995)

After several discussions with real yeast experts it appears that Al K. may
in fact be correct on this Crabtree effect! 8-)

Back to lurking.


>There has been a growing trend to say that yeast do not respire in 
>brewer's
>wort.Someone must have a unique definition of "respiration." I checked 2
>references for the exactly what is respiration and found the following:
>from  "New Gould Medical Dictionary" -"The interchange of gases of the
>living and the gases of the medium in which they live, through any 
>channel,
>as in cutaneous respiration"
>
>from "Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary"- "2. biol. a. the 
>sum
>total of the physical and chemical processes in an organism by which 
>oxygen
>and carbohydrates are assimilated into the system and the oxidation
>products, carbon dioxide and water are given off."
>
>So by definition 1 the utilization of oxygen for the biosynthesis of
>sterols is respiration. By definition 2 the anaerobic fermentation of
>glucose is still respiration. 
>
>  Authorities should try to be more specific in their language to avoid
>making it even more difficult to come to the truth of the matter. To 
>simply
>state "Yeast do not respire in wort" is in error.
>


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:38:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: BACKLOG - don't quote more than you have to!

See the subject...
Al.


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:14:57 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Style Series books, teflon

>Steve Jackson <stevejackson at rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
>In HBD #2745 (June 20, 1998), Al Korzonas wrote:
>
>[snip]
>I just got off the phone with a HB supply shop owner... no doubt
>you know about the fire sale Brewers Publications had on the Beer
>Style Series books.  I just learned from this shop owner that
>these incredible prices were not made available to homebrew shops
>and now customers are coming in saying: "$11.95!?  I just bought
>four of these for $3.95 each at a bookstore!"
>
>Not only does Brewers Publications' decision stink, it exhibits a
>complete lack (or worse, disregard) of business sense. ...
>This one step virtually guarantees that not only
>will Brewers Publications have had trouble selling previous style
>series books (at least I'm assuming they did, since they're unloading
>them), they will assuredly have trouble selling them in the future.

Actually, it makes good business sense.  BP is, I think, re-issuing
all the style series books in the new formats. (Which stink, IMO).
Therefore, they expect all shops to update their stock with the
new books and the old books in the new format.

And yes, my local shop owner is also very pissed about the deal.
The old formats look much classier

*****
caburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charley Burns) wrote:
>Got the 1/2 barrel kegs cut, nipples and couplers welded. Do I use teflon 
>tape when screwing the stainless ball valve to the stainless nipple or will 
>it melt when I fire up the kettle? If not teflon tape, is there something 
>else I should use in that joint?

The teflon tape should be fine.  At least mine is okay.



  - Bryan

Bryan Gros	gros at bigfoot.com
Oakland, CA
Visit the new Draught Board homebrew website:
http://www.valhallabrewing.com/~thor/dboard/index.htm



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:45:50 -0700
From: "Michael O. Hanson" <mhanson at winternet.com>
Subject: Videos/CDs

Does anyone on the Homebrew Digest know where I can get quality inexpensive
videos and CDs on homebrewing?

Thanks in advance, 

Mike Hanson





Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:02:47 -0300 (GMT-0300)
From: Jorge Blasig - IQ <gisalb at elmer.fing.edu.uy>
Subject: Saint Feuillen


Dear friends,
I tried Saint Feuillen Stout and would like to prepare someting similar.
Could any of you send me a recipe which resembles this nice stout
belgian beer.

Thanks,

Jorge Blasig



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:29:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jesse Krusemark <krusemark at yahoo.com>
Subject: Hops and Kraut




Hello All,

HOPS:
I am successfully growing my own hops in central Illinois.  I have
three plants, each is doing quite well.  One, however, and I'm not
sure of the variety, put on what seem to be full sized hops a few
weeks ago, while the others have only blooms.  The hops are papery and
very fresh smelling.  Are these ready for harvest?

KRAUT:
I know this isn't beer related, though kraut is often enjoyed with
beer, but this is fermentation related.  All of the kraut recipes I
can find observe no sanitary considerations.  They rely on airborne
yeasts.  Can anyone help me with a recipe that would kill wild yeasts,
possibly through blanching?  Any yeast recommendations?

Reply off the list if you like
krusemark at yahoo.com
Thanks




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 19:22:59 -0500
From: "Kevin R. Martin" <kmartin at creston.heartland.net>
Subject: Attitudes

Hello fellow brewers,

I have read many of the posts regarding this thread, and I believe that
some people are missing the point that was trying to be made, or at least
the one that I would like to see made.

I would like to start by saying that I read HBD regularly and I have
learned much.  I understand how much time that it must take for some of the
regular posters of great advise and interesting tidbits to actually type
and send these E-mails.  I am VERY glad that they do this.

I would also like to point out that this is a very helpful group.  I have
posted questions, and each time I have gotten many responses.  Most were
brewers that were willing to share their experience and ideas to help me
out of the situation that I had gotten myself into.  I am grateful for
every single response that I recieved which the sender intended to offer
advise and share experiences.  I hope to be able to help others too.

However, there are some responders with a serious attitude problem.  I
actually had one person accuse me of being, " a poor slob in search of a
cheap drunk" just because I brew with extracts.  If this is the best thing
that they have to say to me, I would just as soon have them not respond.  I
may decide to brew with all grain one day, and I am sure that if I do, I
will turn to the HBD for advice, but this type of insulting is immature and
we would be better off as a group without these types of responses.

Best of brewing to all,
Kevin Martin
kmartin at creston.heartland.net


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:33:28 -0700
From: "Chris Carolan" <spiralc at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Summer Yeasts

Danny Breidenbach asks,

>"What yeast do you people recommend for brewing ales in the summer.  I'm
looking at ambient temps fairly stable around 70 deg. F, and I'm looking
for a fairly clean finishing yeast at such a temp.  Suggestions?"

My former brewshop in Georgia strongly recommended Yeast Lab A07 "Canadian
Ale" for summertime brewing.  He swore it fermented clean up to 80 deg F.  I
since noticed that the only Wyeast strain that uses the word "Canadian" in
its description, British II #1335, also has the highest rated temp (to 75
deg F) of any non-Belgian Wyeast strain. I suspect the two may be the same
yeast.  The Yeast Lab A07 has been described in some places as the Molson
strain. Who knows for sure, though.  Either yeast would be (and will be) my
choice for summer brews.

Chris Carolan

chris at calendarresearch.com
http://www.calendarresearch.com  no beer stuff here, just my biz.






Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:19:10 -0700
From: Charles Hudak <cwhudak at home.com>
Subject: Is this the HBD or what?

Greetings,

God, I hate to have to do this, but I'm going to have to chime in.

I'm getting really sick of these public displays of stupidity lately. This
is the Homebrewer's Digest. Let me repeat, this is the Homebrewer's Digest.
This is not a forum for pining on and on about your right to be the
resident homebrew guru or providing your incredible insight on whose posts
are the most helpful or to post your thoughts and opinions on other peoples
thoughts and opinions ESPECIALLY when they are not beer or brewing related.
There are quite a few folks who spend a good deal of their time educating
the rest of us and for that we are grateful. Let it be known that,
regardless of the dryness of the subject matter at times, they are
providing an invaluable resource, especially since it is archived. We may
not feel that we need that information now but we may find, that as we
mature as brewers we turn to the archives for valuable knowledge.

That said....Guys, you know who you are......pat yourselves on the back and
be done with it. If you are posting because you are waiting for kudos to
come down from the heavens, forget it. Most of us will silently or only
occasionally voice out appreciation of you and those who don't WILL NEVER
GET IT!!  Don't waste time trying to sway their opinions. Focus    on
the    beer.

As far as wasting bandwidth goes, Sam, I love ya bud but you are violating
your own advice and admonitions.

Sam writes:
>How about adding, up at the top, a pointer to some web resources for basics?
>For instance:
>
> "Many basic brewing questions are answered at:
>    http://www.brewery.org/brewery/Library.html"
>
>This would help neophytes, might reduce newbie-question bandwidth, and
>would discourage nobody from posting.  Anyone dislike this idea?>If you
know people who are fearful of posting, I assume you do everything
>you can to encourage them.  Please let me know if there is some concrete
>action I can take to encourage them.
>
>Perhaps you could serve as an unofficial ombudsman -- or a helper, if
>that's too pompous -- to encourage them to post to the HBD.  We DO want
>new people to post.

He then goes on, in another post to write:

>> Is bandwidth a commodity or something?
>
>Yes.  HBD is limited to one 50K email per day.  This is an intentional
>bandwidth limitation, which works in tandem with the "cancel" function.
>The idea is that people will answer questions publicly, for the benefits
>I listed above.  However, if you see several replies already in the queue,
>you can cancel your reply and reduce redundant repetition.

Considering Sam's opposition to bandwidth wasting, I'm curious that he's
appointed *himself* the HBD ombudsman and has been posting "Welcome new
posters....." for the past couple of digests.

I find this a very *large* waste of bandwidth. Sure, it gives us that warm
fuzzy feeling, but Sam, if you feel so inclined, send these folks private
emails encouraging their further contributions to the digest. I think that
you'll agree that lately there has been much more beer-unrelated material
on the digest than there should be.

I'm not interested in getting into a headlock with anyone over this.
Rebuttals to this post either publicly or privately will be paged past or
discarded.

I think that we need to get back to the topic at hand: Beer, brewing and
other *related* subjects.

Hey, my beer is getting warm....finally.

C--
Charles Hudak
cwhudak at home.com
Living large on the left coast.......



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 21:12:50 -0700
From: Jesse and Meegan Benbow <benbow at jeffnet.org>
Subject: re: Estrohops

In HBD2749, Alan Meeker wrote:
>"Hops also showed estrogenlike binding, and so might
>mimic the hormone, a finding that fits with folklore about hops workers,
>she added. Men who worked in the hop fields were said to suffer from a
>lackluster libido, whereas female field hands were said to be sexy."
>
>Hmmmmmm OK guys, how many of you hop heads have experienced a loss of your
>sex drive? I suppose the logical solution is to include some ground up
>Viagra tablets when priming heavilly hopped beers.

And Paul Ward wrote:
>A word to the wise, gentlemen - if your S.O. ever is feeling amorous
>on a Sunday afternoon and invites you to the bedroom *NEVER* utter
>the phrase, "hold that mood honey, it's time to start sparging."
>
>Sigh.

Ummmmm, Paul?  Maybe you should go a little lighter on the centennial, 
columbus, and chinook hops in your search for the grapefruit IPA!

Jesse Benbow in Medford OR



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:53:08 -0400
From: Brew Rat <brewrat at beer.com>
Subject: Heineken

Hey collective,

In my 54 years of brewing I have tried without success 
to make the perfect Heinie clone...and finally I have 
discovered the secret. I racked into the secondary, 
a clear glass carboy in a closet with 1000 watts of 
flourescent lighting. I let it sit there for 18 months and 
now it resembles what I wanted. Any suggestions?

Ku8 SUX!!!


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:19:30 -0400
From: "Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: RE:Citrus Notes/Anchor Steam Clone/Eisbock in VA/Beer Bullets

Paul Ward was asking about replicating citrus notes in an IPA that he likes
and Jeff Renner replies:

>Let me suggest something radical - ask the brewer.  You might get
>rebuffed,but you just might get your answer.  I was pleasantly surprised
>when I got pretty much all I asked for about Oberon (formerly Solsun) wheat
>beer at Larry Bell's Kalamazoo Brewing Co.  Identify yourself as a
>homebrewer and ask intelligent questions.

Good advice to follow. I go out skiing every year in Vail Colorado and
always visit my new found Brewmaster friend, J.R., at The HubCap. (Funny, I
look forward to that more than the skiing sometimes!) After shooting the
breeze with him, mostly about the yeast that the brewery uses, not only did
he tell me what it was, he gave me a nice 50 ml vial full of fresh slurry.
Come to find out it was a strain that is not available to homebrewers (that
easily anyway). Wyeast 1187, a.k.a. Ringwood Ale. I have found that what
Jeff says is true at most brewpubs and micro's. Remember, most of these guys
and gals were more than likely homebrewers first and professionals second.
As a matter of fact, I betcha alot them wish they were merely "ordinary
homebrewers" again!!!

Tom asks about an Anchor Steam clone;

I am strictly an all grain brewer now Tom, but I did try an Anchor Steam
clone a few years back with extract. I used 8 lbs. of Alexander's Light
liquid and got pretty good results (6 US gallons). I have since then done
alot of research regarding both Anchor Steam and Anchor Liberty Ale. I use
US Pale Ale malt and a pound or so of 40L crystal for color and a hint of
sweetness. According to my findings Anchor Steam has Northern Brewer hops
exclusively and uses a yeast strain extremely similar to Wyeast #2112, if
not that exact strain. That point can be argued back and forth, but if you
use #2112, in my experience, you won't go wrong whether or not it is the
exact strain Anchor uses. Try fermenting the primary around 55-57F till the
SG drops to 30-40% of the OG and rack to a secondary for a few weeks at 45F
or cooler if you have the capability. I think it'll turn out pretty darn
close to what you are looking for in a California Common. Good Luck!

David Rinker makes a comment about Eisbock thread;

>Why do I ask?  Welt, in my home state (VA) distilled liquor cannot be
>sold in any other store than a state-licensed and run ABC store.  Since
>Eisbock is readily available in supermarkets and other stores, it seems
>that VA's ABC board doesn't regard Eisbock as a distilled product.


Sorry David but this one cracked me up. I have been in alot of supermarkets
and I'll be damned if I have ever seen an Eisbock in any of them! Tell me
your kidding?? In Virginia???? We just got a new high falootin' Winn Dixie
Marketplace and all it has is that new fangled Sam Shepherd's Iced Wicked
Dry Huckleberry Ale!! (Just kidding, I live on a small island and don't get
to the mainland much) The stores here in South Florida are just now getting
around to stocking a few good micro's. Hope we can get more diversified
someday.


I have a question of the collective. Since I do live on an island and don't
get to the big city much I am kinda outta touch with HDB jargon. I found a
file of HBD acronyms but didn't see "beer bullets" on it. Can someone
enlighten me as to what a "Beer bullet" is exactly? I have seen this term
used alot lately in this forum so I assume it is not a bad word.


Regards to all,

Marc

======================
Captain Marc Battreall
Backcountry Brewhouse
Islamorada, FL



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:24:03 +0300 (EEST)
From: Ari J{rm{l{ <jarmala at pcuf.fi>
Subject: Clear bottles, skunky, Corona

Tom Alaers asked how is it possible that Corona does not get skunky
while it stands long time in a clear bottle. I'm not sure if this is
the actual reason, but it may be possible, that they use reduced
isomerized hop extracts at the brewery. These new hop extracts are
known to be non-skunky even in bright sunlinght. When using these you
must not use _any_ other hop products, if you want to avoid the
possible skunkyness completely.

There are more info in new publications about hops and hop products.




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:50:16 +0930
From: "Brad McMahon" <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Labelling laws

Sam Mize wrote:

>Until recently, we were forbidden to put the strength on a beer
>bottle, also, to prevent competition based on the strength of the
>beer.  This was recently overturned, based in part (I think) on the
>argument that a person can't responsibly control his alcohol intake 
>if he doesn't know what it is.  Beer sold in the USA may now list 
>its alcohol percent, as long as it's a discreet informational line 
>and not an advertising claim about how blasted it'll make you.

I went through my collection of labels from my last U.S. stay some 
eight months ago, and none of the microbrewery labels had that
information on them. I found it mildly worrying  that people
don't know what they are getting strength wise. I think its
irresponsible for them NOT to put it on. As we all know too
well, most people don't know much about beer. I can envision 
where people who are used to (say) a six-pack of Coors Lite, knock 
back a six of Sam Adams Double Bock and then jump in the car, none
the wiser. OK, so people who drink Coors Lite probably won't
like dopplebocks, but you get the drift.

Most other countries require producers to list alcoholic content.
In Australia we have gone an extra step, where the amount of
standard drinks it contains is displayed on the bottle.
ie. on a bottle of Coopers Sparkling Ale :" 375ml 5.8%alc/vol,
approx. 1.7 standard drinks."

Much easier to work out your consumption.
I think U.S. producers should start doing this as a matter of civic
duty.


Brad McMahon
Adelaide, Australia
(and part time Sea Cliff, NY)








Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:14:53 -0400
From: "Buchanan, Robert" <RBuchanan at ChristianaCare.org>
Subject: Flights of Homebrew

Rob D. posts about the Security guys with a taste for Homebrew.
I too have taken many bottles of homebrew and commerical beers on board.
Granted security is always an issue in our troubled, terrorist- laden
world,but seems Rob's family either ran into an over-zealous group or guys
who KNEW what was in those bottles.
Hope they (the guards) enjoyed that beer !!
Steve in Indy responds with some good advice on packing it in your checked
luggage, if you've ever watched those luggage guys toss your suitcase on
board I'm suprised that my shving cream CAN hasn't burst !! Also one note to
pass on, be careful with some higher carbonated beers like Belgians or Weiss
beers, pressure drops can cause these beers to blow the top off
in your suitcase. I found this out when bringing some Paulaner Hefe back
form Germany.
Bob Buchanan
"Give a man a beer and he wastes an hour, teach a man to brew and he wastes
a lifetime"



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:49:06 -0400
From: "Mark Nelson" <menelson at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: re: skunk smell

Tom A. asks about skunking and why it doesn't happen in Corona.  I know that
some mass-produced commercial beers are made with a hop extract that is
stabilized to prevent becoming lightstruck.  This the case with several
American clear-glass beers, and may be the case with Corona as well.




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 07:48:13 -0500
From: "David Johnson" <dmjalj at inwave.com>
Subject: Cherries, Secondary fermentation

Brewers,
	I was out picking cherries last night from my Montmorency (sour) cherry 
tree. I have a bumper crop this year. I have enough to make beer (besides
enough to make pies and give away). I am looking for suggestions for a beer
 to use these in. Most of the recipes I have seen have suggested stouts. I
am not really a fan of the classic dry stout. Perhaps a foriegn style or
imperial cherry stout? I do like New Glarus' Belgian Red. But since I have
an idea of what the brewer does to make it, I feel I am unlikely to make
that  kind of effort.  I also want to ask, pits or pitted? I am leaning
towards pits. Is 6-7 pounds enough? I plan to pasteurize. A Melomel would
also be OK but I thought that it might be a little acidic.
	
	I have a porter in the tertiary that was transferred a week or so ago.
Gravity had gone from 1.058 to about 1.024. I had let it spend five days on
an ounce of steamed oak chips. It appeared to be clearing, so I swirled it
to resuspend the yeast and didn't check it until this AM. Vigorous
fermentation had started again. I had used 2 yeasts in this batch and knew
that one was supposed to be more attenuative than the other. Does this
explain this behavior? It smells OK. I have cleaned out the air lock (I
didn't expect this vigorous fermentation) and replaced it. I also consider
the possibility that this is due to contamination but it smells OK (good in
fact). Even if it is a wild yeast, this was to be a 18th century style
porter (yes I know oak may not be appropriate) so I was considering adding 
Brettanomyces anyway. 

	Not really concerned, just curious.

	Dave


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:25:53 EDT
From: BrwyFoam at aol.com
Subject: Beer Color, Equipment

SUBJECT:  Beer Color, Equipment

I disagree with Al de Lange's assertion that spectrophotometric
methods (i.e., absorbance at 430 nm) are intrinsically superior
to visual methods (e.g., the one that is presented in Laurie's and
my book) because the latter is less "objective".

I do agree that a case can be made along these lines for light colored
beers.   For example, our methods are hopelessly inadequate for distinguishing
the color of the two top selling "light beers". The best we could do is say
they both are very light and fall in the range 1.5 to 2.0 deg. Lov.
A spectrophotometer, on the other hand, would pick up this difference.
BTW one is at 1.6 and the other is at 1.8.

Where I have a problem with de Lange's assertion is in the color interval 
from full gold to deep brown, say from 6 to 18 deg. Lov. to cite a
specific numerical range. Here it is not at all difficult to come with
examples which have similar SRM values (absorbance*10), and yet are
discernibly different in color. The point I believe de Lange may be
possibly overlooking is that the human visual system absorbs
light waves at many different wave lenghts. It is true that those at or
near 430 nm are important for "amber" beers, but they are not
dominant as they are for lightly colored beers.  On the other hand,
the visual methodology is by no means perfect as far as color 
measurements in the  6 to 18 Lov. range are concerned, but to quote Allen
Greenspan (who was speaking about the measurement of inflation),
"I would rather be approximately correct than totally wrong".

Once one goes much beyond 18 deg. Lov., then even visual methods become
suspect. I feel this is an excellent research area for a combined
chemistry/mathematics approach. I see the SRM as being equivalent
to using only one term in a Fourier expansion. It appears that a 
more fruitful approach is to go about things mathematically with full
spectral approximations. The biggest application of this sort of
work is undoubtedly in the evaluation of the effect of color malts. As things
stand now this is highly problematic both on the commercial as well
as homebrew level. But all this is for some other day, and some other 
forum.
                   **********************************************************

I think it is a serious mistake to think one can improve the quality
of one's beers by throwing $ at equipment. As I have said before
on this forum, the single most important thing I have done in the last 10 
years is to force myself to do the following three simple things
on a regular basis.
  
  1. To do actual yeast cell counts.
  2. To get reasonably accurate estimates of cell viability.
  3. To do this same for bacterial levels in pitching yeast.

One of the things that I find most exciting about Louis Bonham's new series
for BT
is that it will open an on-going forum for these sort of issues.  Hopefully,
this will help
break down the phobia that all of this is beyond the scope of the average
budget 
conscious homebrewer.  
    
Cheers,

George Fix




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:29:31 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Skunk-proof beer / Roller mill spacing

     Hi all,
     
     Tom asks why some beers can be packaged in clear glass and not be 
     skunked.  Thanks to the magic of modern science there exists a product 
     called "tetrahydro-iso-extract."  It is isomerized hop extract that is 
     light-proof.  This extract will also improve foam stability.
     
     It is important to note that to make beer light-proof requires that no 
     "normal" hops be used anywhere in the production process.  Even the 
     yeast must be free of "normal" hop iso-alpha acids.
     
     This must be what Miller was referring to as the "heart of the hops."
     ---------------------------------
     John asks about appropriate gaps for roller mills.
     
     I believe the best way to determine the gap for your mill is to run 
     some grain through it, evaluate the crush, and adjust it.  Once the 
     crush is to your liking, measure the gap (if you feel the need).
     
     Different grains are different sizes, so to optimize the grind you may 
     want to adjust it for each type of grain.  This way, you'll get the 
     best crush for the grain you are milling at that moment, rather than 
     relying on somebody else's settings.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:45:01 -0700
From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net>
Subject: Burro Urine

Tom asks this of Corona:

>So I never understood how those crystal-clear bottles of Corona that
>are in a brightly lit store for more than a week don't develop this
>bad smell. Does anyone know the reason?

Yes, you can't smell it because of the overwhelmingly bad taste!  Here
in the southern San Joaquin Valley Corona is referred to as burro urine.

Kyle Druey
Bakersfield, CA


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Jun 98 09:32:54 est
From: paa3983 at dscp.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli)
Subject: Quit Bitchin' / RIMS...the final froniter

HBDers,
On bitching:
I try as best I can to focus on the good that people do as opposed 
to the bad.  Without question the HBD "gurus" have contributed 
more to homebrewing than any other resource I can think of.  And 
they don't ask for $33  membership dues or for you to make a purchase  at  their HB
store.  Do a search of the HBD archives with my
name in it.  You'll see a guy who in '94 was wet behind the ears 
and didn't know jack about brewing.  Skip forward about 1,200+ HBDs and I'm now
up to 30 gallons  at  a pop while  at  the same time making friends in almost every
corner of the world.    All in large part
t due to the HBD.

None of us are perfect.......focus on the good.
- -------------------------------------------------
RIMS....
In my quest to step-mash a 60 pound mash, I've learned thru the
HBD "gurus" the pros and cons of steam injection.  One thing I hadn't
thought about til now was doing the temp. increases via RIMS.  I've got
the pump, so I guess all I'd need is a heat source to raise the temps.

Could it be as simple as running the wort thru the pump and then thru 
a coil of copper tubing which is submerged in hot water that's heated with
propane?  Could it be this simple??  Seems alot easier than 
building a 1/2 barrel steam cooker.  If I used, say a 50' ft. roll of 1/2" coppe
r and placed it in a 1/2 barrel keg filled with water that's heated underneath,
would it raise the mash temps. in an acceptable time?  

Thanks to all of you and long live the HBD !!!

Mike Spinelli, Cherry Hill NJ



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:54:49 -0400
From: Dave Hinrichs <dhinrichs at quannon.com>

From: Tom Alaerts <TomA at BUT.BE>
Subject: re: skunk smell

I know that brown glass is a much better protection against this
phenomenon than green glass or clear glass. Here in Belgium Corona is
ridiculously expensive for what it is, so the bottles are not taken from
the shelves often.  So I never understood how those crystal-clear
bottles of Corona that are in a brightly lit store for more than a week
don't develop this bad smell. Does anyone know the reason?


Tom Alaerts


I don't know the method but talking to the head brewmaster at Minnesota
Brewing which makes Grain Belt in a clear bottle. It takes alot of care and
several tricks to toughen the beer to light. He would not reveil his
secrets. I suspect that a chemical is added as well.



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:01:46 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Kubessa process question

     Hi all,
     
     The Kubessa process is a mashing technique where the husks are 
     separated from the rest of the grist and not added to the mash until 
     just before vorlauf (recirculation).  The goal of this is to minimize 
     the amount of grain phenols that get into the wort.
     
     Kunze talks about this process a bit (a really small bit) in 
     _Technology Brewing and Malting_, and says that it is seldom used.
     
     Why is it seldom used?  Sounds like a good idea.  If you were using a 
     mash filter, you would not need the husks at all.  Is this done?
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:11:26 -0400
From: Doug Moyer <Douglas.Moyer at geics.ge.com>
Subject: Stout history; corriander; hop pests; hops FAQ

Dearest collective,
	I have several questions, but not much time to read the HBD anymore, so
a direct response would be preferred.

(1) At our next club meeting, I will be discussing the history of stout
as a style. I know that this was discussed a bit recently, and if I have
time, I will do a archive search. Short of buying more books (not in the
budget) can any of you suggest some good on-line references? Or, if you
feel like typing, could you send me info from your books?

(2) I have a nice cilantro plant growing in my herb garden, and I would
like to use the seeds for a wit. Any advice on how to process the seeds?
Should I let them dry on the plant, or pick them and dry them myself? If
the latter, how? Any other pointers?

(3) I've noticed that my hops (first year) are starting to show a
certain "laciness" to the leaves. I don't know what kind of bug is
eating them. Any suggestions on killing the bugs, or keeping them away?
If I use a pesticide, what considerations must I make? (I've never done
any type of gardening prior to this year, so I'm basically lost!)

(4) Are there any good FAQ's or other resources on the net for growing
hops?

TIA & CIAO
Doug Moyer

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity (under construction)
Pictures of my baby: http://www.rev.net/kmoyer


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:49:46 -0400
From: "Ludwig's" <dludwig at us.hsanet.net>
Subject: heating element temp

> Does anyone know (or have a good estimate of) the surface temperature of a
> RIMS electrical heating element, when it is in the condition of full on,
> say at the start of a temp. raise period?  I guess I am referring to the
> low-watt-density elements, that are run at reduced voltage and 1/4 power
> with great success in electrical rims systems.

Bill,
I think that's a tough one to answer because it depends on the heat
transfer rate from the element. The element surface temp is going to be
different depending on whether it's immersed in a stagnent vessel of
water, or in a tube with water flowing through it or if it's out in the
air and the temperature of the liquid itself. I would suspect that the
rims systems that experience carmelization have a higher element surface
temp than the others that don't and that would be due to higher watt
density or lower flowrate or maybe more entrained air in the mash
liquid. I'm not a rims user or use heating elements so no first hand
knowledge.  

Also, the more I think about the steam idea. Is there any significant
advantage to injecting say a lb of steam at 215 deg and a lb of water at
212 deg? If your injecting the steam through a nozzle in to the flow,
soon as it hits the flow, it will just be a dribble of hot water and
would take a lot of steam to heat effectively. 

Dave Ludwig
Flat Iron Brewery
SO Md


Return to table of contents

---