---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Classic American Pilsner update (Jeff Renner)
  bottle cappers (Mark Tumarkin)
  octoberfest (Michael Lausin)
  Cylindroconical opinions wanted.. (Jon Bovard)
  Mechanical agitation, posting idea (Michael Rose)
  Crystal - but not clear/Kubessa Scandrett/cappers ("Steve Alexander")
  Burning propane in closed room. (Fred Johnson)
  First Batch........ (Mark)
  No Sparge (Bob Wilcox)
  re: homemade coolers ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Water treatment (Dave Humes)
  propane in the basement brewery and no boil beer (AlannnnT)
  Re: Chimay Red ("Gregory A. Lorton")
  Re:Convert a sausage grinder (Bruce P. Garner)
  Mash Volume in Kegs (droot)
  Wind Screen / Heat Shroud / Hot Metal ("Hunts, Jeff")
  RE: : Keg lines too long? (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Keg lines too long? (michael w bardallis)
  Teflon burning (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Valley Mill Settings ("Raymond C. Steinhart")
  Trub (Vernon R Land)
  extract choice (Mark Tumarkin)
  Keg Conversion (me)
  Aluminum (Jeff Renner)
  High Hops! (Dan Morley)
  re: steam or water hotter? (Jon Macleod)
  Hop Combination ("Larry O'Mahoney")
  How do I use my Water Analysis ("Peter J. Calinski")
  cooling down ("Scott Church")
  Crystal malt discussion ("Arnold J. Neitzke")


Have you entered a MCAB qualifier yet?


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 19:35:45 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Classic American Pilsner update

In private email, Jim English <jimebob at mindspring.com> asked for
> some tips
>for a brew worthy of the impending holiday
>based on a Classic American Pilsner.  Unless I'm mistaken
>you have commented on this particular style
>and I would love to ask you a couple of
>questions.

What a great way to observe the holiday.  It's probably too  late for HBD
readers to brew this quintissential American beer on the quintissential
American holicay unless you have yeast ready, but how about next week?

 You could say I've commented on the style.  Beat the drum incessantly,
perhaps, starting with a post to HBD that led to my 1995 article in Brewing
Techniques, "Reviving the Classic American Pilsner - A Shamefully Neglected
Style" - see
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue3.5/renner.html

This article was a non-technical one intended to rally homebrewers to this
style, and it did.  It inspired several hardworking brewers to successfully
lobby the AHA to get the style recognized.

I was originally inspired by two previous articles:  "The Bushwick
Pilsners: A Look at Hoppier Days," by Ben Jankowski
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.1/jankowski.html and
"Explorations in Pre-Prohibition American Lagers" By George J. Fix
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.3/fix.html.  There
was also a big subsequent cover article in Zymurgy sometime in 1997 on
pre-pro lagers, which is not available online.

I've made a few changes to my recipe and technique since my article, but
the original version of "Your Father's Mustache" is still a fine beer.
Then I used flaked maize and hopped to a target of 25 IBU.  Flakes are
easier than grits or cornmeal, which I now use, but not as much fun, and
cooking the corn with malt adds to the flavor.   I also now use first wort
hopping and hop about 50% more.

>Would the style have been more Germanic or Bohemian viz.
>color, attenuation, FG, hops?

I think the style is more German in roots and similarity, but there
certainly were pre-prohibition brewers in the US from both areas.  The
styles may not have so well defined 100+ years ago.  I think there could
well have been American interpretations of many European lager substyles,
but nearly all would have used corn (or rice and/or sugar) as well as 6-row
malt and domestic (Cluster) hops.

The diacetyl that is typical of Pilsner Urquell (German brewers disparage
it as "Diacetylator") is absent in modern German and American lagers, but
was definitely at perceptible levels in US lagers in the past.  Fix reports
" Brewers' awareness and acceptance of both diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione
have changed dramatically over the past four to five decades. A 1952
report, for example, stated that the average diacetyl level of American
commercial beer was 0.33 mg/L, more than three times the flavor threshold
of 0.10 mg/L  "Diacetyl: Formation, Reduction, and Control" by George J.
Fix, http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue1.2/fix.html).  I
definitely don't like diacetyl in this style and strive (successfully, so
far) to avoid it.

>I'm thinking American 2-row, maybe a pound of carapils for a
>little "ass" (out of style, I know)

I'd recommend skipping the carapils first time.  I like the style to be
crisp, and have I trouble in the opposite direction - often it's a little
too sweet.  Probably my mash schedule.  But, hey, it's your beer!

> and corn.  I think you have said that grits work.  What kind?
>Instant? Regular? Yellow?  How do you recommend
>gelatinizing it?

I've used instant grits, and any should work, but most of the time I use
yellow corn meal.  A local bulk food store has coarser meal than the
grocery stuff (like Quaker) in a cardboard carton - it's very fine.  But
I've used it too.  It does need to be gelatinized, and that's where the fun
(I mean it, no ironic use of the word "fun" here) comes in.  A typical 5
gallon recipe might be 7 lbs. malt (I like 6 row for authenticity and super
enzymes, but use 2-row if that's what you have) and two pounds corn.  You
mash (this is a minimash called the cereal mash) corn:malt at 3:1 (maybe
2:1 if you have 2-row) with treated water (enough Ca++, low alkalinity, low
sulfate, I use CaCl2) to ~153F -with enough water to avoid scorching.  Hold
it for maybe 20 minutes (complete conversion isn't necessary), then boil it
until it's completely gelatinized.  Be sure you have enough water and stir
occasionally.  Old texts say boil 45 minutes for corn meal, 75 minutes for
grits, but no one does it that long commercially any more.  I go for 30-45
minutes.  What you're getting here beyond gelatinazation of the starches
that weren't converted in the cereal mash is melanoidin production for
flavor and some not undesireable darkening.  Then you add this to the main
mash which you have appropriately mashed in a bit earlier so it is ready to
be boosted to the next temperature just when the cereal mash is ready.

In other words, you could dough in the main mash at 140F as soon as the
cereal mash is boiling, then add the cereal mash to boost to 158 for 1/2
hour.  You'd need some additional heat such as a RIMS or boiling water.

>Can I do a single step infusion, or do I have to do the
>dreaded protein rest?   A high one(130+) or a low
>one(120+).  Saccharification around 151-153?

You could certainly do a straight infusion, especially if you use flaked
maize.  If you use a cereal mash, then you could either do two steps, or
cool it before adding it to the main mash for one temperature rest.  Or you
could do a protein rest, probably at the higher temperature.  Arguments
here suggest that there is no reason for protein rest.

I dough in at 40C (104F) and hold it while I get the cereal mash going,
then boost using my propane fired RIMS to 60C (140F)  during the time the
cereal mash is converting.  I figure that in 20 minutes or so it takes to
go from 40C to 60C, I've passed through all kinds of useful temperatures.
I have no problem with head retention or body.  Then I rests the main mash
at 60C (140F) while I boil the cereal mash, then add it and supplement with
heat to get the whole mash to 70C (158C) for 20-30 minutes.  Then I mash
out and lauter.

I also hop more than in my original article, to upper 30s IBU including the
FWH contribution.  FWH is an addition, also.  I use Saaz or Hallertauer for
this, but stick with Cluster for bitterness.

>Fermentation tips.  I have a 'fridge and I bottle.

First, pitch a lot of yeast.  The yeast from a 2 liter starter is not too
much.  Aerate well, and ferment around 50F until gas production nearly
ceases - 10-14 days.  Rack and lager 6 weeks, then bottle with corn sugar
as usual and age 2 weeks at cellar temp for carbonation.  You don't need
fresh yeast.

Good luck and have fun.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 20:18:30 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: bottle cappers

Shannon writes about broken bottles when capping with a two-hand double
lever type capper and asks:

>Has anyone else had bad experiences with these type of cappers?  I am
>thinking of getting a bench capper.  Is there less of a chance of
>breaking bottles with a bench capper since nothing wraps around the
>top of the bottle?

You don't mention what type of bottles you were using. If they were
screw cap bottles they are much more likely to break in any event. I
used the lever type capper when I first started but soon switched to a
bench capper. I didn't have many broken bottles but it is much easier
and faster to cap a batch with a bench capper - trying to keep the
bottle steady while using both hands on the capper left me wishing for a
third hand. More importantly, I think it is easier to get a good seal,
even and tight,  with the bench capper.

- ------
my 2 cents on the current Vampire thread (the Undead topic that refuses
to retire to it's grave long after it should have given up the ghost) -
I'm one of those newbies (although I'm almost beyond that status after 2
years and 20+ batches) that haven't been driven away or been put off by
the techno-brewer guru gods of the HBD. In fact, thanks to you all. The
HBD is, by far, the best brewing resource going. I am about to make the
plunge into all grain. So now I find myself going back to the archives
and looking up topics that I remember being discussed, but didn't pay
that much attention to as it wasn't directly useful at the time. On the
other hand, I almost never "page down" - reading computer & software
manuals taught me the value of skimming even stuff your not going to use
now, just so you know that the features exist so you can look them up
later when you need the info. I'm not ready for RIMS and I don't
understand much about  chemistry, but I pick up little pieces of the
puzzle and they may come in handy later. It's pretty cool when the
puzzle pieces start to fit together and make sense. And, in part, the
repetition of threads over time helps that eventual understanding.

As far as "attitude" - yeah, folks on the HBD sometimes let things get
blown a bit out of proportion - but hey who doesn't from time to time.
Do you all read other news groups on different topics? Some of them get
downright vicious. My wife follows a group for her profession that makes
you understand the origin of the term flame. I think most HBD posters
are generally pretty civil, and as far as "lighten up", one of the
things I like most is the humor people display. Maybe one problem is
that dry, sarcastic humor can be missed or misinterpreted - but, hey,
don't let that stop you (it certainly won't stop me). For example, if
Pat Babcock would quit wasting his time as janitor and post more,  the
humor level would be much higher.

Well, thanks again to all of you,

Mark Tumarkin







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Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 22:04:56 -0600
From: Michael Lausin <soscc at cmn.net>
Subject: octoberfest

has anyone been associated with a group that has put on an publicly
attended octoberfest type funtion in their town? our brew club, the moffat
county outlaws, is wanting to establish a yearly event around octoberfest
time to help draw in the tourists. lining up the microbreweries to come has
been no problem (usually never is where beer is concerned). we have some
buy in from the city and the downtown merchants association, as far as
"it's a good thing to do" and "we'll support you". what ever that means. we
more curious about the legal hassles that we might need to know about like
can we serve homebrew, liability insurance, etc.

to save myself from catching any grief from the bandwidth gods, please
reply via e-mail. if there's enough interest i'll post a summary of what i
have found out from the collective.

tia & cheers!




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Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 15:14:54 +1000
From: Jon Bovard <jonbovard at geocities.com>
Subject: Cylindroconical opinions wanted..

Greetings all.

Last Sunday I went to visit arguably one of Australias most
sophisticated home-breweries.
This bloke had spent the better part of thousands and thousands
of dollars on anall stainless steel and copper reticulation mash,
fermentation and serving
apparatus.

The one thing i instantly fell in love with was his cylindroconical
stainless fermenter.
(see it here)
http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/3451/jim3.jpg

My beers all suffer from a Truby taste associated with my inability
to aseptically drain excess trub and debris transferred from the cooled
kettleas mentioned in previous HBD.
My question is what are the advantages of such an apparatus?
Is it really worth it or is it like owning a BMW instead of a Ford?
ie.Status symbol.

Im keen to know if its worth it or not.

Cheers
Jon "feeling like a plebian" in Brisbane
Australia


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Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 23:34:17 -0700
From: Michael Rose <mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Mechanical agitation, posting idea

John Rhymes writes;
> Mechanical agitation and heat -- any energy input -- will greatly 
> accelerate oxidation and other adverse reactions in your beer.  If 
> you are able to keep your beer in a cool and consistent environment, 
> any flaws in the process are less likely to become evident.  If your 
> beer is subjected to agitation and heat, any flaws will all too 
> quickly become evident.

I understand the damage heat can do to beer, but I don't understand how
mechanical agitation can do damage. Anybody care to explain this?

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

	I have a thought concerning posts on the HBD. Seems to me that most
postings fall into 3 catagories: questions, answers and comments. I
don't know if this would work, but would it be possible for posters who
are giving honest *answers* to put some code in with their post so that
we can save time doing our searches? When doing a search we could put
XYZ+botulism. This would eliminate at least half of the search engine
responses. Just an idea.

  Michael Rose   Riverside, CA     mrose at ucr.campus.mci.net


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Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 05:47:56 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Crystal - but not clear/Kubessa Scandrett/cappers

Jeff Renner asks about crystal (and similar) malts and their fermentability.
Is low fermentability a momily ?

M&BS describes the general procedure for crystal mfgr and states that "A pale
crystal malt called 'cara-pils' is prepared that yields an extract having low
fermentability.".  No clear explanation is given.  Even tho the malt is
'stewed' for 2hrs at 65C-70C the modification may be incomplete due to lack of
water for enzymatic hydrolysis.  For darker crystal we can imagine that
caramelization, and a limited amount of melanoidins cause fermentable sugar
losses.  The higher kilning temps *may* also cause some sugar binding changes -
tho' I thought these were pretty stable.  One thing is certain - some of the
incredible flavors from crystal are due to thermal reactions between sugars and
amino acids that form cyclic chemicals that include carbon and nitrogen in the
rings.  Pyrazines - some similarly transformed sugars become furans, and
pryoles.  The phenols in highly kilned malt products are also transformed into
some that do not naturally occur in malt/barley. So could the kilning transform
some of the 1-4 sugar bonds (which the amylases can handle into 1-2 bonds, 1-6
bonds etc ?  I don't know.

I guess I'm saying that good sources support the idea that crystal malts give
extract of low fermentabilty.  It's probably no momily. I'm pretty sure I don't
know why.  My speculation is that the sugar bonds are disturbed thermally. - or
true caramel is formed.  The process described for making caramel (sugar and
ammonia - a nitrogen source, cooked for 3 hrs at 120C) don't sound so radically
different from the way crystal malts are kilned after stewing (121C till color
is achieved).
- --
AlK writes re GeorgeDP (is the abbrev OK with you George ?) and the Kubessa
process and is on target about the percentage of total phenol found in the husk
being only a small fraction of the total.  That isn't to say the the husk
phenols might not be the most troublesome tho'.  The types of phenols found in
the husk fraction are distinguishably different that those in the germ.  For
example ferulic acids, the precursor to the 4VG wheat beer taste is far more
concentrated in the husk fraction of barley - removing the husks till
end-of-mash should prevent their enzymatic release.  Also the gums embedded in
the husk fraction to which phenols are attached aren't solubilized in the mash
in the Kubessa process.  I'm afraid the only way to tell if it works is to try
it.   BTW Charlie Scandrett proposed the Kubessa process - tho' not by that
name on HBD well over a year ago.  I *believe* he claimed that leaving the
husks out altogether produced an insipid product - but maybe I'm misstating the
facts from faulty memory.
- --
BTW - tongue in cheek for Shannon Miller - the best bottle capper is the really
frustrating hard to use one you already have since it will cause you to give up
and lay out the $$ for a keg setup.  You'll never regret it.

Steve Alexander




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Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 06:56:39 -0400
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Burning propane in closed room.

I have always taken precautions to keep the garage door open when I'm
brewing with my propane cooker to avoid the buildup of poisonous gases.
However, last night I visited one of my local  discount megastores in
which there was a guy using a large floor polisher powered by a combustion
engine fueled by what appeared to be a 20-30 pound propane cylinder.
There were some fumes in the air but they were not obnoxious.  Was this
likely to be propane being burned and if so, how could someone get away
with marketing such a machine, apparently intended to be used indoors (how
many floor polishing does one do outside?) unless the combustion products
were safe?  So, what about my propane cooker?  Must I leave the garage
door open when I brew?
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina





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Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 08:28:24 -0400
From: Mark <mark at maine.rr.com>
Subject: First Batch........

Hello:

Yesterday I opened my first bottle of West Coast Pale Ale made with my QVC
special prices Mr. Beer, man was it cidery!  Followed the directions to a
"T", but instead of bottling for 1 week, I gave it about 12 days.  I'll let
it sit in the cellar for a couple of weeks more and see from there.

Second Batch: 

I started a batch on Munton's Premium Bitter using 1/2 can in my 2+ gallon
Mr. Beer.  To this I added 1 cup sugar.  I'm told that this may be cidery
as well, but may mellow out in time.

Third Batch:

Last night I started the other half of the Munton's Bitter using NO sugar.
I guess I'll find out in a few week which is better. 

Finding home brewing very interesting and enjoyable.  Being a former chef
(I'm on my second career in life) this fits right into what I like to do.
Recipes, formulas and experimentation are what I like to play with.  Maybe
I should be a scientist in my next career move!

Just as an FYI, I prefer using the easy cap bottles for obvious reasons.  I
bought my first two cases and was hurting for an other dozen so my local
beer supply shop keeper gave me a dozen from his private stock.  I'm
cleaning out the bottles from the garage today and will see if the
redemption center has any others..

Cheers!

	Mark 


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Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 05:45:25 -0700
From: Bob Wilcox <bobw at sirius.com>
Subject: No Sparge

Hi John

Looks like a good brew and no sparge has made a big differance in my
brews. I use that method with most of my beers now. The only thing I
would change in your recipe is the amounts of grains. For a 5gal batch
without sparging I use 12-13 pounds of base malt and up the specialty
grains a little. I think you need to add a third more grains. I add
water to the kettle to bring it up to 6.5 gals. Good luck and I think
you will like the results.

Bob Wilcox
Long Barn Brewing
Long Barn & Alameda Ca.


***********************************************************************

PS. Here is what I am brewing this weekend:
Some Kind of Beer
8 lbs of Gambrinus Pale Ale Malt
1/2 lb Caravienna
1/4 lb Dark Munich Malt
1/4 lb HB Chocolate Malt
Galena Hops for bittering
Liberty Hops for Flavoring
Homegrown Fuggles for Dry Hopping
About 35 IBUs, 1.040 OG
But! I am going to not sparge! Screw the lost fermentables, I am going
to save a half hour and just use the first runnings.  Brewing on the
foreskin of technology here.



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Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 07:44:18
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: homemade coolers

Steve Alexander posted:

>In the past I've entertained various ideas for fermentation/lagering designs
>and in the end I always find that once any reasonable allowance for
>construction effort and the cost of pumps, fans, insulation, material, temp
>controller is included a used fridge or freezer with controller looks pretty
>attractive - a la Fred Kingston's recent post.  Even new low-end chest
freezers
>look pretty good. Do any cold box, fridge extension builders care to
disagree ?

I've built 2 differently designed ice powered fermenting chambers and have
to agree with Steve- a chamber fridge or freezer is a heck of a lot easier
done and, if you put any value on your time, less expensive.  IMHO, the
biggest disadvantage of ice powered coolers is that replenishing the ice
can be a big problem (or nag factor <g>) if you have to rely on your better
1/2 to tend to the task while you're out of town.  




c.d. pritchard cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/



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Date: Fri, 03 Jul 98 09:41:37 -0400
From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Water treatment

Greetings,

I'm starting to take water treatment a little more seriously and so have
what are no doubt some rather basic questions.  My water is fairly soft,
so to get the desired profile for a "westernized" India Pale Ale, a simple
CaSO4 addition looks like it will get me pretty close.  I've looked
through all of the standard homebrewing books and found it rather simple
to come up with the desired amount.  It just seems to be a lot.  I'm
shooting for a Ca concentration of about 170 ppm and a SO4 concentration
of about 400 ppm.  It's a 10 gallon batch with 6.5 gallons of strike
water.  Doing the calculations I come up with 18 grams of CaSO4 to treat
the 6.5 gallons of strike water.  If you are simply trying to effect
reactions in the mash, then obviously you only need to treat the strike
water.  But, then it seems like if you are really trying to match the
brewing water of a given region, you have to treat the sparge water as
well.  So, that's another 28 grams in 10 gallons of sparge water.  Your
opinions will be appreciated.  BTW, I'm starting this batch in about 30
minutes, so if anyone on DC-beer can respond quickly, that would be
appreciated.

Cheers!

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>                  Dave Humes
- -----------------------------------------------------------



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Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:43:40 EDT
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: propane in the basement brewery and no boil beer

Randy writes,

"I know this subject has come up before, and there are a lot of people who
will argue "don't do it" ( and I respect that opinion), and I also know
there have been a number of people who have posted that they do it with no
problems." ['It' being propane cookers in the basement]

Randy, the possibility exists that the people who would argue that they have
done it and they now think it's not safe, have already killed themselves.

As the brilliant Dennis Miller says, "That's just my opinion--I could be
wrong"
- ------------------------------------
On the subject of no boil extract brewing. 
The recent discussion of no-boil prompted me to try a no-boil beer from a
Muntons kit. I steeped one pound of cracked crystal, briefly [2 mins] boiled 6
gallons of filtered water with an ounce of leaf hops. Added the two cans of
Muntons IPA, one pound of dextrose and a half pound of DME. Turned off the
heat, force chilled [sorry Jack] with my newly made, all stainless, Bride-of-
Imersion-Chiller. 
Fourteen days of fermentation and two weeks of conditioning later, I have the
world's least interesting beer. 
I am certain my non-brewer friends will like it. I have made decent beer from
extracts before, some even excellent {IMNSHO}, but this is neither.
Since this is just one experience, not a conclusive experiment, I would like
to know if anyone has had a better experience.

Best Brewing,
Alan Talman   

 



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Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:20:50 -0700
From: "Gregory A. Lorton" <glorton at cts.com>
Subject: Re: Chimay Red

Kyle Druey wrote in HBD #2757that he wants to make actual Chimay Red, not
just a clone.

I know a lot of homebrewers that dream of making Chimay or another Trappist
ale (Westmalle tripel would be my choice).  For me, though, it's the
business about abstinence and the vows of poverty that keep me from taking
the plunge.  I'm not Catholic, anyway!  8-)

Greg Lorton
Carlsbad, CA
(Sorry about the wasted bandwidth!)


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Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:55:56 -0500
From: bpgarner at mailbag.com (Bruce P. Garner)
Subject: Re:Convert a sausage grinder

Dave Russell writes:

>I came into possession of my grandfathers old sausage grinder and was hoping to
>use it as a grain mill.

It doesn't augur well for your being able to adapt a grinder as a grain
mill; at least on your present tack.

A sausage grinder sends pieces of meat toward a cutting plate rotating
against a fixed plate to duplicate the action of someone repeatedly and at
different angles chopping up and down with a cleaver. (In England ground
beef is called mince.) The best you can hope for is that most of the grain,
husk and all, would be minced into smaller pieces.

Milling grain for brewing involves crushing it so that the husk pieces stay
full length to create a filter bed and the insides are in smaller bits but
not floured to allow full wetting during the mash. This is similar to what
one would do using just enough action with a mortar and pestle, hammer or
rolling pin, were they to do it by hand.

You might be able to get milling plates for the grinder that allow it to
operate like a Corona Mill. But many who have a Corona as their first mill
move to roller mills because the Corona needs to be alined properly to
avoid an uneven crush and with hand grinding most batches take too long to
put through the mill.

Bruce Garner




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Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:55:57 -0400
From: droot at concentric.net
Subject: Mash Volume in Kegs

WayneM38 at aol.com asks how much space 5 gallon and
10 gallon mashes take up in a Sanke keg.  I mash mostly
10 gallon batches in a 1/4 (7.75?) gallon converted Sanke.
24 Lbs. of grain will fill it to the rim with 5.5 gallons of water.
Last Sunday, I used 30 Lbs. of grain and brewed 5 gallons of 
1.090 beer, and 10 gallons of 1.044 beer. I used the 1/2 keg,
(15.5) gallons and it was ~3/4 full.  I started with 7.5 gallons 
of water (the 1/2 seam) and added the grain.  I also added
2 gallons of boiling water to help go from 40c to 60c.

David Root Lockport, NY  droot at concentric.net





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Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:26:27 -0700 
From: "Hunts, Jeff" <jhunts at CIWMB.ca.gov>
Subject: Wind Screen / Heat Shroud / Hot Metal

Wise and (usually) Gentle Collective:

To get the most out of my propane tank and my one keg / one burner
set-up, I took the advice of an HDBer who suggested several months ago
using a galvanized trash can as a heat shroud.  I bought a spanking
clean and shiny 30 gallon galvanized can with lid from the Home Despot
for about $15.  Cutting the bottom out was easy.  Tin snips would've
probably worked if I had some, but I just used an old chisel and a
hammer and banged it out.  Cut like butter.  Flatten the sharp edges
with the hammer.

Anyhow, the can fits inverted over the keg brewpot perfectly, resting on
the tripod legs of my 170K btu burner to keep it off the ground allowing
good air flow, with the top rim of the keg extending a few inches above
the *base* of the inverted can.  (I believe the HBDer who suggested this
technique used a wire hanger to suspend the can over the keg.)  I use
the trash can lid (still nice and clean) as a protective cover on the
keg while boiling, with steam exhausted through the kegs handle holes.
And the wire loop handles on the trash can make it easy to slip on and
off even when hot.  I can keep a good boil going with minimal flame.  I
originally worried about the plastic coating on the ball valve handle
melting (as well as any exposed teflon tape torching), but the bottom
skirt of the keg seems to contain any direct flame.

My related question today:  Metal guru Jim Palmer in HBD#2757 warns
against letting certain species of SS overheat.  That bottom skirt on
converted keg boilers gets pretty darn hot, what without direct contact
with boiling wort keeping it in the low 200s F.  Also, when I'm through
with the boil, and before chilling, I use a hose w/ a pistol sprayer to
mist off the lower portion of the keg, resulting in much steaming and
sizzling on that hot bottom skirt.  There is some discoloration of the
skirt from this heating and cooling, but what are the consequence of
this procedure?  Catastrophic skirt failure?  Boiler rupture?  I'd hate
to have five or ten gallons of boiling wort explode all over my deck --
and feet!  Any insights welcomed.

Thankful for liberty, homebrew and the HBD in Sacramento,

Jeff Hunts
Donner Party Homebrewing
"Goes great with finger food"



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Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 16:24:35 -0500 
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: : Keg lines too long?

From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>

Nathan asks about beer foaming and line length.

>Help! 

Nathan, you left out the one thing that we wonder about most - how long?

More inportant than the length, would be the inner diameter of the
lines.  Ideally you would want 3/16 ID about 5 foot long.
This will allow you to keep the beer carbonated and use about 10 PSIG to
move the beer.  Also, you need to open your beer tap fully when
dispensing, if you partially open, you will get much foam.

Keep the line cool, I have had some foaming when the line gets very
warm.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 17:25:59 -0400
From: dbgrowler at juno.com (michael w bardallis)
Subject: Keg lines too long?

Nathan,

You didn't say how long your lines are, or what ID, or material, but I
doubt that's your problem. I'd say your regulator is set too low! You
see, beer at 40 deg. and 1 psi will equilibrate at about 1.4 volumes of
co2, which is kind of low. (most beer falls between 2.0-3.0.) You didn't
mention your method of carbonation, but if you either primed or force
carbonated the beer to a higher level than 1.4, the co2 in the beer will
take any opportunity it can to get out of solution. Opening the tap, plus
a pressure drop across any restriction, plus any turbulence: we're
talking foamarama! The correct pressure setting will be based on your
beer's desired carbonation level and keg temp, plus the pressure needed
to push beer out the tap at the desired rate. Charts showing dissolved
co2 for various psi/temp combinations have been published in The
Homebrewer's Companion and Beer and Brewing, vol. 10, as well as various
periodicals. As an example, if you want to maintain 2.5 volumes at 40 deg
F., you'll need to put about 12 psi on that baby, plus a little extra to
push the beer out, say 2 psi. (it don't take much) Depending on how full
your keg is, and how long it's been slowly degassing, it may take a
couple of days for things to re-equilibrate.

Mike Bardallis
Pouring perfect pints in Allen Park, MI

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Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 16:48:15 -0500 
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: Teflon burning

Al mentions teflon singed.

>Regarding teflon tape and washers, I have a few words of warning.
>Although teflon is rated to 400 or 500F, it can burn.  I have a
>teflon washer behind the ball valve (on the outside of the pot) on a
>small pot I use for making large starters and it is singed a little
>on the edge that faces the burners (mere 12,000 BTU kitchen burners).

>While this may not be a problem to you or I, if you have any pet
>birds (parrots, budgies, etc.), smoking teflon will *kill* them.
>I've read where empty teflon cookware left on a burner has killed
>parrots.

I wish I could supply references, but from memory only, a long time ago,
I have heard that burning Teflon will emate Phosgene gas, a deadly
poison.  So humans could become dead birds.

Teflon is safe as long as it is not burning. 

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 16:21:10 -0500
From: "Raymond C. Steinhart" <rnr at popmail.mcs.net>
Subject: Valley Mill Settings

Mike Satterwhite asks about Valley Mill Settings.

Mike, I believe these are reasonably accurate. I forced feeler gauges
into the roller gap for each position on the mill.  (The reason I forced
the feeler gauges is that when grain works its way through it will try
to spread the rollers.) The lines on the mill do not line up well with
the indicator on the roller so I redrew them with a marker and marked
numbers accordingly.  I also used a torque wrench and tried to get a
reasonable idea of torque requirements.  I found that Schreier 2 Row
pale at setting five required around 35 inch pounds of torque to turn
the rollers

Grain Mill Settings		
		
1		0.019
2		0.025	
3	 	0.035	
4		0.049	
5	 	0.065	35 in #'s torq
6		0.083	

- -- 
My All Electric RIM Brewing System
"http://www.mcs.net/~rnr"



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Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 18:27:23 -0400
From: vland1 at juno.com (Vernon R Land)
Subject: Trub

Jon from Austrailia asks how to keep the trub out of his ferment.  I used
to try and strain the hops out using a kitchen strainer but found it to
be a PITA.  Now I dump the whole works into the plastic pail and let it
churn.  Two days later it gets racked into the secondary and off the
trub, it's easier and keeps my brew time down, beer tastes great.  

Sanitation notes:   I once lost my rubber air lock grommet in my pail
trying to jam the air lock in, I went fishing in the wort with my arm
almost up to my shoulder.  I expected an infection but it never happened.
 Seeing this, I then experimented with bottling.  Since bottling is the
biggest PITA associated with this hobby, I skipped the chlorine soak and
simply rinsed with our excellent local  tap water, no infected bottles
after 200 tries.  Perhaps I'm just lucky or maybe we worry a little too
much about killing every last bug.  

Anyone had any experience with YeastLabs Dusseldorf Altbier yest out
there?

Vern

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Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 20:21:32 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: extract choice

JPullum writes:

>I have a achance to buy bulk malt extract syrup, either alexanders,or
muntons
>at essentially the same price. I have used both in the past and have
been
>pleased with the results. anyone have thoughts on choosing one over the
other?

I have only used Muntons extract once, so I can't really compare the
two. However, Alexander's has been my standard extract. Although I also
like NorthWestern (Briess?).
I had read that Alexander's gives the one of the lightest worts, and I
can confirm that it does.

This is important with with extract as it is harder to get a light beer
than with all-grain. It's always easy to get more color or flavor, when
desired,  from a partial-mash of specialty grains. Most other extracts
seem to yield a darker color - even when they are called light or extra
light. Alexander's also seems to ferment cleanly and completely. If they
are the same price, Alexander's would be my choice.

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, Fl



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Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 01:51:12 GMT
From: me at you.org
Subject: Keg Conversion

I have  the chance to get a couple of beer kegs with the black rubber
bottom.  Can this be removed to make boiling pots? If so, how and is
the keg still stable?  

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Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:06:00 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Aluminum

Marc.Arseneau at fluordaniel.com wrote

>Now, a question.  I use an aluminum pot for my boil.  I have heard
>     rumors and whispers that this is BAD.  Oh someone, please tell me why.

It ain't.

Jeff

Oh, I suppose you want the long answer.  ;-)

This is one of those threads that comes up every few months and there are
hotly held opinions.  Fortunately, I have a purely reasonable, unemotional
position on this.  And I'm right, too!

First objection is that aluminum, one of the most common elements in the
earth's crust, was in one study some yeasrs ago implicated in Alzheimer's
disease.  That association has has been disproved as a causitive factor, at
least as much as a negative can be proven, and the archives have
documentation.  Besides, the Al doesn't even get into the wort - a BT
article documented this.

Second is that commercial breweries don't use aluminum.  This is because it
reacts dangerously with caustic (NaOH) that they use for cleaning in place.
We don't use that stuff, so it's OK.

Advantages - Aluminum has 10x the heat conductivity of SS (according to a
HBD post several years ago), and it is more easily wetted, so you don't get
hot spots as easily.  It's light weight and less expensive than SS.  I paid
$220 for three 10 gallon, 5mm thick stock pots with lids.  These work great
in my bottom fired 1/4 bbl. RIMS.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 09:19:33 -0600
From: Dan Morley <morleyd at cadvision.com>
Subject: High Hops!

Hi all,

My hop plants are doing very well. The are planted on the south side of my
house and have already grown the 20 feet up the side of my house. I can
think of 3 options now:

1)Just let them grown and hang where they may.
2)Clip the tips of the shoots and force them to branch out
3)Try to train them horizontaly along new string. (I would guess that I
would have to climb up there every couple of days to wrap them around the
string, this being a PITA)

Any comments on theses ideas or new suggestions would be greatly
appreciated. Private e-mail is fine.

Thanks


Dan Morley
Calgary, AB, Canada



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Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 11:24:00 -0400
From: marli at bbs2.rmrc.net (Jon Macleod)
Subject: re: steam or water hotter?

I didn't see if there was an answer to this question, but here's
mine...As you point out in your question, 212F water and 212F steam are
the same temperature, therefore neither is "hotter", but....steam will
impart more energy to whatever you're heating up.  The steam will
condense on the the items releasing the heat of condensation.  This
energy will raise the temperature at the surface of the item above 212. 
Its the same idea in reverse as to why evaporation cools something.

Mike



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Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 11:10:40 -0600
From: "Larry O'Mahoney" <breck at communique.net>
Subject: Hop Combination

In order to try a thread of a different type, I thought I'd ask for 
peoples' various tried and true hop combinations. I've found 
certain hop combinations work better than others for various 
styles, and I'm sure other brewers have too.

For example, one combo I've found to be particularly good is Perle 
(bittering) and Ultra (aroma and dry hopping) in English pale ales 
(33 IBU) using Wyeast 1007. It provided an incredible hop nose like 
nothing else I've ever tried.

Another favorite is Chinook (bittering) with Cascade (aroma and dry 
hopping) in an IPA (45 IBU) with Wyeast 1056. In addition to my 
brew, I've tasted several brewpub offerings with these hops and 
they were pleasant brews as well.

Alright, in order to introduce some controversy (this is the HBD 
after all) you might also post what didn't work. I tried an all 
Galena hopped pale ale (40 IBU) (FWH, bittering, flavor) using 
Wyeast 1007 that I couldn't stand. I'll never use Galena again (my 
neighbors loved it, so it's not a total loss).

Larry
New Orleans


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Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:47:24 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: How do I use my Water Analysis

I just received an analysis form the local water authority.  Let me preface
this by saying I am not a chemist.  I don't believe the analysis (given
below) includes the concentration of carbonates.  Is there a way to
determine the carbonates concentration from this information?  If I have a
target profile that specifies carbonate concentration, can I translate that
into the information I have?

The analysis I was given is (from the Erie County [NY] Water Authority):
(All in mg/L)

UNREGULATED CHEMICALS
Alkalinity		80
Aluminum		0.2
Calcium		31
Magnesium		8.5
Hardness		116
Sodium		10.5
Total Dissolved
Solids		149
Phosphorus		<0.1
Silicon		<0.5
Total Organic
Carbon		1.7

OTHER PARAMETERS
pH			7.9
Turbidity		0.06
Coliform Bacteria	99.9%<1/100mL

SECONDARY CHEMICALS
Fluoride		1.01
Iron			0.1
Chloride		19
Manganese		<.03
Sulfate		24
Zinc			<0.02
Color			<5.0

Primary Chemicals
POC's-59 total	<0.0005
Total 		0.03
Trihalomethanes
26 Pesticides	<MCL
/Herbicides

PRIMARY CHEMICALS/INORGANIC
Arsenic		<0.005
Barium		<0.1
Cadmium		<0.005
Chromium		<0.01
Copper		<0.01
Lead			<0.003
Mercury		<0.0002
Selenium		<0.005
Silver		<0.01
Ammonia Nitrogen	<0.05
Nitrate Nitrogen	0.46


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Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 13:47:33 -0700
From: "Scott Church" <schurch at gte.net>
Subject: cooling down

I am "very" limited on space in my small apartment and I am considering
turning my closet (which is already used for ferm and conditioning) into a
"cooling" (or cool-"er") unit.  I was wondering if anyone has any good
ideas on what could be used for the actual "cooling" unit? ......Parts off
a old frig or ac.....anything like that?

Any advise will be most appreciated.

Signed.....A brewer that needs to cool things down!!!!!

	VIAC



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Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 14:06:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Arnold J. Neitzke" <neitzkea at frc.com>
Subject: Crystal malt discussion

In a response to Jeff's discussion of crystal malt, I have a single data
point.

I ground 2.5 lbs of 60L crystal and "mashed" it at 158F for 20 minutes and
did a iodine test, it was black as coal!  I let it continue to stew just
to see what, if anything, would happen.  After 40 minutes the iodine test
was still "black as coal", the same results occured even after 1 hour.

>From all the information I have read and been told about crystal, is that
it was all sugar and did not need to be mashed!  This doesn't seam to be
the case.

I will try to get the spec's on theis malt, but I would encourge other to
try the same thing with their crystal malts, to see if this is consistant.

You probably will not have to use as much malt as I did, since I was going
under the assumption that the iodine test would be negative and I was
going to try to make beer based on crystal only.  If it did show negative,
I was also interested in finding out just how far down the wort would have
fermented?

_________________________________________________________
Arnold J. Neitzke     Internet Mail: neitzkea at frc.com
Brighton, Mi          CEO of the NightSky brewing Company
- ---------------------------------------------------------



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---