---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  St. Strange ("Rob Moline")
  Grain Mills (mark fletcher)
  killer yeast&sanitation tests/Lime/IM/Worminator ("Steve Alexander")
  PVPP and Phenols ("Steve Alexander")
  Will a double boiler work for decoction? (Mike Spinelli)
  Re: Irish Moss / Grist:Recipe (David Sherfey)
  speaking of hops combinations (Peter.Perez)
  Fruit (JGORMAN)
  Plate and Frame Heatexchangers... (Joe Rolfe)
  A beginner seeks advice (IAN FORBES)
  My Beliefs... (EFOUCH)
  Rubbing alcohol (JGORMAN)
  styles; grist percentage (Samuel Mize)
  RE: Water Question (Robert Arguello)
  Dave Line, Dave Miller, oops (Nathan Kanous)
  Oxidation / Deoxygenating water / Hop pellets (George_De_Piro)
  one CO2, two fridges (Peter.Perez)
  Refrigerator temp controllers/ SS aerating stone <-- source of ("Victor Farren")
  Re: Dryhopping Continental Pilseners (ZIMURGIST)
  Brew Evaluation (Tim Burkhart)
  Irish Moss (Al Korzonas)
  Sherry-like aromas/flavours (Al Korzonas)
  *Miller's* Continental Pilsner (Al Korzonas)
  dryhopped Bohemian (Al Korzonas)
  RE: PPVP;Oxidation;Dry Hop;Wild Yeast;Efficiency;Dilution;Grist% ("LordPeter")
  Re: CO2 Tanks (Jeff Renner)


Have you entered a MCAB qualifier yet?


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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 00:36:26 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at ames.net>
Subject: St. Strange

Strange Brewer ....IT IS TIME FOR A READING FROM THE BOOK OF ST. STRANGE:For
insomuch as man is made from mortal flesh and doomed to die, he is but a dog
who labors through the working day, and having finished his day of work is
entitled to sit easy in his chair of repose and ease his troubled mind and
aching body in the beer God has given him for to lighten his weary spirit.
He bringeth children into the world and they are his joy, but also his
worry; yea he fearith for their happiness, and he struggles to bring them up
in in trying times so they may know joy in their turn. Give him a beer for
them. He livith with woman, his helpmate, who he does not understand, and
who sometimes driveth him crazy. Yet she is the flesh of his flesh, and
partner of his sorrows and joys. Give them both a beer so they may be joyful
and enjoy one more time the pleasure in each other's company that is without
sin, and innocent as the clear water that makith the beer that comforts
them. Yea, give them beer at all times. At weddings so they may rejoice in
the new partnership of love that God has created; and at the same time,
assuage their loss as their child makes a new life with their mate. And at
the funeral for a loved one, so the pain of loss is lessened with the
gladness that their beloved sittith with God. And let there be beer at the
triumph of victories great and small, for in this short life it is good that
we celebrate the small victories and great. Beer; thou art food and drink,
and comfort and distraction. You make me foolish like a child and wise as a
sage. I thank the kindly God who made thee for me, and I praise thee when I
boil and I sparge. For thee are worthy of praise and respect. Thank the
kindly god who made beer! Amen.


 Forwarded by Jethro Gump

"The More I Know About Brewers, The More I Want To Be One!"




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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 02:27:15 -0700
From: mark fletcher <fletcher at efn.org>
Subject: Grain Mills

There's been a recent thread about grain mill gaps- this has prompted
me to discuss my mill.
    I was able to acquire a used pizza dough roller for free ( this did
not even require a homebrew bribe, I just had to haul the heavy bastard
away). It consists of two infinitely adjustable stainless steel rollers
which are about 4" in diameter and about 30 " long. I motorized the
thing with an old motor that my grandpa had lying around ( he was a rock
hound,  now he's dead- loved that man.The motor previously powered a
tumbler- now my hobbies take precedence- don't tell my grandma) and then
I built a  stand and a hopper out of odd bits of lumber that were lying
around.
    My first attempt to crush grain was a  grand and utterly abysmal
failure (even though Deschutes Mirror Pond Pale Ale was involved)- it
seemed the rollers, which were very smooth -refused entry to the plump
grains that were attempting to find a new life as beer somewhere beneath
those near- sighted, horizontal, steel obelisks.
    In a flurry I tried to enlighten the alloy heathens with  several
series of divots- divots that were insisted by a carbon steel chisel and
a hammer and a shower of diacetyl sweat and an occasional nip at a
bottle of  BIGFOOT.
    This measure proved somewhat effective and I was able to allow
several malted grains to see the light of "nature of reactants".
    But it still wasn't fast enough (and Uncle Tupelo played on in the
background and I took a nip at a glass of La Trappe Tripel) so I
composed an entire symphony on the unfortunate cylinders and now I am
once again God of my sphere and  my grain crushes at a rate that would
make most homebrewers blush.
    You want specifiics you say (tried New Glarus Raspberry Tart for the
first time-incredible; but  not as good as their cherry beer- which may
be the best American beer in America):
    How 'bout 10 lbs. of grain in 75 seconds.
    How 'bout .035" gap with nicely intact barley husks.
    How 'bout wheat  like water.
    How 'bout almost no dust ( so no one warn me about nature of
reactants)
    How 'bout not sticking your hand in it (imagine the sideways smiley
face here and imagine a nice glass of  Thomas Hardy to admire your
crushed hand by).

    So everyone head outdoors to your nearest pizza parlor and steal a
dough roller (3 AM is a good time-12 extremely cold cans of Keystone
Light are suggested to accompany).

    This is my first post and it won't be my last. Newbie though I be.

    Mark from Springfield, Or. (graduated from Thurston High school-you
know Kip Kinkel. I had his father as a Spanish teacher and he was a
great person- no bull. Kip is a genetic tweak.)



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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 05:28:41 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: killer yeast&sanitation tests/Lime/IM/Worminator

mark.mallett at bbc.co.uk asks ...
>b) A short lag time reduces the chance of infection.
>[...] seems to lead to  yeast having anti-microbial properties, is this so. I
>presume it is the CO2 given  off, that keeps bugs outside the fermenting
>vessel. Any other ideas?

CO2 and Ethanol in the beer helps prevent bacterial growth as does the fact
that yeast use the simplest sugars up first.  The quick reduction of O2 in
solution, the CO2 layer above the beer prevent aerobes pretty effectively.  The
rocky krausen/head in the fermenter helps prevent airborne infections from
taking off too.  But primarily it's the pH drop that leave the competitors in
the dust.  Note too that most bacteria have a higher requirement for sterols
and UFAs than yeast - and nearly all require either O2 or wort sterols+UFAs to
grow (there are a few exceptions which can make sterols under anaerobic
conditions).  A low trub wort with the O2 depleted isn't a real friendly place
for bacterial growth.  Interestingly there are some 'killer yeast' varieties
that emit some substance that prevents the growth of other yeasts.  I believe
it's an  enzyme. This occurs in some wild yeasts and in at least some
commercial sake' yeasts.  I've seen that there are articles on 'killer yeast'
in brewing journals, but never bothered to check out whether this phenomenon
occurs in any brewing yeasts too.

Only after the sugars and several critical amino acids are depleted and the
alcohol level is fairly high does beer become nearly uninfectable by bacteria,
yeasts and molds.  For this reason alone a high pitching rate and so a
relatively quick fermentation helps prevent problems - the beer is just
vulnerable for less time.

OTOH Sam Mize writes ...
>Lax sanitation is a dance with probability.  Every skipped step creates a
>risk of infection.  How big that risk is depends on your environment, your
>other procedures, your materials, and so on.  If your total risk of
>infection is 5% per batch, you have an even chance of making 13 batches
 ...
Unfortunately few of us brew under lab conditions, so the probability of
infection in homebrew and microbrews is virtually 100%.  They questions then
are how extensive is the infection and how bad are the by-products (as Sam did
note).

I'd strongly suggest the infection test G.Fix writes about in 'An Analysis of
Brewing Techniques' pg 92 - BTW a great book IMO.  The only equipment required
is a sealable jar (canning jar, baby food jar), your nose, tongue and a
calendar. As you are filling your fermentor, before pitching, divert a little
wort to a sanitized jar; seal and store in a warm place (0.5L & 86F are
suggested).  Check it a couple times a day until you see signs of infection
(cloudiness, surface growth, bulging lid).  The time to infection evaluation is
(my descriptions)::
   <24 hours    - serious trouble - toss your beer and review sanitation
procedures.
  24-48 hours  -  less serious but unacceptable sanitation, expect some off
flavors
  48-72 hours  - Beer will not be affected, but better sanitation is called
for.
  > 72 hours    - the desired situation.

The nice thing about this simple test  is that it's then easy to smell and
taste the very same infections that are likely to appear in your beer.  If you
have a microscope it's a great opportunity to ID the organisms present.  Using
this method I found that my basement brewery tends to get wild yeasts that
produce a pentadione aroma (honey-sweet) but otherwise aren't serious
off-flavor producers.  I also found that a longer iodophor soak of my CFchiller
increased the 'time to infection' very significantly.  Aside from infections in
repitched yeast, this seems like a very safe, sane effective means of testing
your sanitation procedures and tasting the enemy.  I do this on every batch
now.

Steve Jackson asks about the the use of slaked lime to precipitate bicarbonate.
I asked this a couple years back and AJ gave the details.  Slaked lime and
hydrated, aside from the weight/mole differences should work the same.  Food
grade hydrated lime is available for pickling use - often at the places that
sell canning jars. Bottom line is that the amount of hydrated lime required is
highly variable depending on several water parameters and the phase of the
moon.  I get good precipitation by adding between 0.18 and .21 grams per gallon
to my 88ppm carbonate water - tho the direct calculation, as I recall suggests
0.35 gram. It doesn't really save time, since you'll need to add the lime the
day before and allow for precipitation.  The weighing obviously requires a
rather good scale.  Initial pH on my treated water is high (like 8.1), but the
buffering is virtually eliminated. Determining the amount of lime will require
a bit of experimentation.  My advise is that phosphoric (or perhaps other) acid
additions are a simpler & quicker solution.

The Irish Moss question - After using IM religiously for a few years I
experimented not using it. I found that *usually* IM makes no difference in the
final clarity of my beers.   My impression too is that IM may cause some few
beers to clear sooner than they would otherwise, but I have doubts that it
prevents permanent haze. I've pretty much stopped using it. IMs effectiveness
is very sensitive to the wort pH and probably other conditions too.  IM
additions like the 4tsp/11gallons quoted is about twice the max I would
consider using.  Does anyone have a night vs day anecdotal experience that says
IM is highly effective in preventing haze ?  I'd like to hear about it.

Somehow Charley's story about the bugs in his vorlauf bucket remind me of the
Spoonerism about 'tasting the worm/wasting the term'. Are worms an adjunct ?
Probably not enough carbohydrates to qualify - but plenty of protein and
glycogen. I guess I'll pass by the question of this late protein addition's
affect on haze.

Steve Alexander







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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 06:15:37 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: PVPP and Phenols

Randi Ricchi asks if PVPP will pull positive flavor phenols out of beer.

The short answer is yes - it can - tho' is has a greater tendency to attach to
oxidized and polymerized phenols rather than simple phenols. I think that you
can safely use reasonable amounts of PVPP to reduce tannins without reducing
the small positive flavor phenols much.  Overuse of PVPP and other protein
substitutes will strip flavor tho'. I don't know the specifics of PVPP and 4VG
interactions, but I would guess that it's not a big issue.

>You may wonder why I would want to clear yeast from a hefe-weizen.
>I want to see if it will increase flavor stability.  My weizens are much
>better in the first month or two of their life, than they are when they are
>older. They don't really go off; they still taste like weizens, they just
>lose some of the fruitiness, and become drier.

PVPP won't solve this problem.  4 vinyl-guauicol (4-VG) decays substantially
with time and tempurature.  The half-life, as I recall, is only a couple months
at cellar temperatures.  Weizens lose their 4VG taste fairly quickly over time.
The solution is to brew smaller batches more frequently, or to store part of a
batch at yet cooler temperatures.  You may actually want to brew a weizen that
is initially a bit too 4VG-ish - just so the level will be right by the time
the beer is hmmm-well cleared.  If your beer is too clovey-tasting just give it
time.

Steve Alexander




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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 98 07:50:28 est
From: paa3983 at dscp.dla.mil (Mike Spinelli)
Subject: Will a double boiler work for decoction?

HBDers,
If I placed my decoctions in say, a 5 gallon SS pot and then placed
the pot inside a sanke keg filled with boiling water, would the decoction
boil ?

I would think this would eliminate scorching problems and the need to
stir.  Kinda like a double boiler is used when melting chocolate.

Thanks
Mike Spinelli - Cherry Hill NJ



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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 08:25:47 -0400
From: David Sherfey <sherf at warwick.net>
Subject: Re: Irish Moss / Grist:Recipe

Chuck quotes Miller and AK on Irish moss

According to George Fix, AOBT, page 122, 1 tsp in five gallons (1/24
g/L) of refined Irish moss flakes is on the low end of the recommended
use scale, producing 350-400 Formazin turbidity units.  Commercial use
levels are two (1/12, 200-250) to three (1/8, 150-200) times higher. 
Irish moss is not recommended for protein deficient worts, ie. malt
syrups, etc.  

I have used 1 tbsp/5 gallons in several recent brews with no carryover
into the fermenter and no noticible fermentation problems. 

*****
Jeff Writes:
Therefore,
it would be more accurate to specify the grain bill in terms of
percentages of extract from each grain, and let the brewer figure out
how much of each grain to use based on extract potentials and system
efficiency. <snip>

Yes, if everyone was using the same identical method of recipe
communication, this would be a good thing.  However, with the different
levels of brewing experience, knowledge, and brewing equipment/process
that exists in the homebrewing community, this would be a difficult
thing to standardize on to the extent that real repeatable and
reproduceable accuracy would result.  All it would take is one
hydrometer to be "out of calibration" to throw things off in someones
calculation of their extract efficiency.  What if they were using old
malt and didn't know it?  What if they wrongly estimated the amount of
wort/beer remaining in the glop in the kettle/fermenter?  Even if there
were a standardized method of communication, I would have a hard time
trusting the accuracy of the information except from a handful of known
brewers.

Even if we could somehow standardize the grist thing, we then come to
hops!  Many tiny little material variables here with significant flavor
impact.  Since most of us don't have equipment to measure real IBUs, we
estimate, based on logic we have developed for ourselves based on
comparison, etc.  Some of us estimate the storage losses, and others
don't.  How could we possibly communicate repeatable and reproducable
hop recipe information?

Perhaps I have gone a bit further than the original topic....I think
most of us just realize that someone elses recipe is just a data point
reference to use to launch our own recipe from.  Yes, you can get a
winner by copying verbatim, but it isn't guaranteed.

Cheers!

David Sherfey
Warwick, NY


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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:47:10 -0400
From: Peter.Perez at smed.com
Subject: speaking of hops combinations

My hop garden this year is producing the following:  Nugget, Bullion,
Liberty, Fuggles and Saaz.  Anyone and everyone, please share with me any
combinations of these five strains that might work well together.  If you
know of some combination, please share the hop schedule with me.

Thanks,

Pete




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Date: 9 Jul 1998 08:49:12 -0400
From: JGORMAN at steelcase.com
Subject: Fruit


I have a question about fruit and fermenting.  Last week I made up a batch of
wheat beer and let it ferment in the primary for 1 week.  After one week I
siphoned it on to 3 lbs of raspberries and there was no fermentation.  I
pasturized the raspberries at 160 F for 15 minutes.  Should there be some
fermetation in my secondary?

rIvEr DoG bReWeRy


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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:40:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Subject: Plate and Frame Heatexchangers...

when the microbrewers confr was in boston a few years ago
i remember seeing a small homebrew sized phe from either
alpha laval or apv. if memory serves me it was rather
inexpensive. like around $100-$200.  big drawback - did not
come apart. which is ok if you can put an inline filter
before it. i dont think it had sanitary fittings tho.

Al K mentioned Pub Brewing Sys, with all the breweries going
under these days you might be able to get a real nice one
for about $500 

when buying a used one - buyer beware,  take it apart
if it does so, keeping track of the plate order, and 
the compressed width or all the plates. the best ones
i have found for maint reasons are the type that have 
gaskets that are not glued to the plate but are "clipped"
type. by taking it apart you might have to spring for
a new gasket set. 

also find out where it came from, some applications
are very demanding.  pressure and heat can cause microscopic
cracks and pitting. A look with a mag glass might reveal
some grand canyon sized openings. 


good luck and great brewing
Joe Rolfe


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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 09:49:55 -0400
From: IAN FORBES <IFORBES at BCBSCT.COM>
Subject: A beginner seeks advice

I am very interested in becoming a home brewer.  In the hope of starting
off on the right foot, I was wondering if I could get some advice
regarding the purchasing of a starter kit and the associated required
equipment.  I have taken a look at quite a few homebrew supply houses
on the web, but it is hard to tell if the advice they are giving is good
advice or if it is advice that is only meant to sell the products they are
carrying.  Any and all advice is much appreciated.  One other question -
I do have the opportunity to purchase a "True Brew Maestro Series kit"
(includint the folowing equipmemt; 1) The True Brew Handbook 2)
Primary Fermenting Bucket & Lid, 6.5 gal. 3) Bottling Bucket with Bottling
Spigot-6.5 gal 4) Rack & Siphon Set including: a) True Brew Spring
Bottle Filler b) 4 feet of Flex Tubing c) 24 inch Curved Cane & Racking
Tip d) Tubing Clamp e) Tube Holder 5) Hydrometer 6) Double Lever
Capper 7) Bottle Brush 8) 3 piece Airlock 9) C-Brite Sanitizing Cleanser
10) Fermometer) for around $10.00 - $15.00.  Would this be a wise
choice?

Thanks again!
Ian
iforbes at bcbsct.com



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Date: 9 Jul 1998 10:17:09 -0400
From: EFOUCH at steelcase.com
Subject: My Beliefs...


HBD-
I believe that I had a fairly good first year hop harvest so far.  About 1oz
Saaz (I think it didn't like the Mg defficiency I exposed it to), and about
10oz Northern Brewer.  I also believe I will get about 2#'s Cascade, when
their ready.

I believe I heard previously on the HBD that people who brewed with home grown
hops experienced grassy flavors and aromas in their finished beer.  I noticed
when drying the hops in my Ronco Food Dehydrator (I beleive I have no
affiliations) the first aromas were very grassy.  In the morning (after 9
hours of drying), the hops were dry, and the aroma was of hops, not grass.
Could these grassy experiences be attributed to improperly dried hops?
Anything else to look out for to avoid grassy flavors/aromas?

I believe I will try to bribe a friend of mine who works at an analytical lab
to do some acid analysis on my hops to determine % acid.  What's the going
rate (in homebrew)?

I believe next year I will dose my hops with MgSO4 earlier in the year
hopefully for a better yeild and healthier plants.

I believe Kyle Druey posted 34 times in 1997, and 137 times in 1998.  What
gives?


I believe Alan G. Monaghan asked:
>As a question, I have just gotten into my 1st kegging unit. I am
>starting with 30psi for a day or two and then kicking it down to 10psi
>for the pours. My only problem is the CO2 doesn't stay in the beer for
>long periods of time. By the 10 to 15 minute mark, I have nothing
>bubbling up from the bottom of the glass. What can I do to try to
>correct this?



Alan- DRINK FASTER!

Eric Fouch
Head Hop Harvester
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood, MI

PS- Looking for a good Cock Hop recipe.  I got some monster cock hops from my
NB.  Maybe five big cock hops, and an old rooster?


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Date: 9 Jul 1998 10:47:13 -0400
From: JGORMAN at steelcase.com
Subject: Rubbing alcohol


Has anyone ever used rubbing alcohol to sterilize their brewing equipment?


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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:15:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at mail.imagin.net>
Subject: styles; grist percentage

> From: James_E_Pearce at nag.national.com.au
> Subject: ...hops and styles
> 
> On another note, AlK responded to someone's (I forget who) query on hop
> combinations with a reference to hops and styles.  Although your attempt at
> dry hopping with Saaz was not like a Bohemian pilsener, was it any good?
> 
> After all that's what I want to know.  Not being a judge, or even being
> familiar with American competition styles, all I care about is if the
> outcome is good (and repeatable).

I agree with your main point -- Al has said much the same thing: if you
don't care about styles, don't worry about it.

However, a little more description than "good" would be useful.  For
example, I dry-hopped a batch with a citrusy hop -- Cascade, I think -- and
neither my wife nor I could stand it.  It was like grapfruit beer.  Now, it
was a well-enough made beer, and my friend who drank up the batch would say
it was "good."  But I won't be making it again.

That's another thing standard styles are good for, by the way: helping us
categorize beers so we can find ones we'll like and avoid ones we won't.
That's why I'm averse to brewpubs (et al) playing fast and loose with style
names.  It's easy enough to not use a standard designation as part of a
beer's name, if it's way outside that style.

(That was "et alia," Al would never misname a beer.)

 - - - - - - - - - -
> From: Jeff Schroeder <jms at rahul.net>
> Subject: Grist% ...

> Al Korzonas writes in response to a question about grist %:
 ...
> >Unless otherwise specified, recipes specify the percentages of the >grist
> >by the weight of the malt.
 ...
> it would be more accurate to specify the grain bill in terms of
> percentages of extract from each grain, and let the brewer figure out
> how much of each grain to use based on extract potentials and system
> efficiency.
> 
> Anyway, that's what I would have assumed.

Whoa momma, he's more techno-pedantic than Al!  :-) *  Most homebrewers
won't want to mess with figuring separate extraction rates to determine
their grain bill, even if they can do so accurately.  I think that recipes
are given in percents so you can scale them easily.

*smiley added for the humor impaired

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam: see http://www.cauce.org/ \\\ Smert Spamonam


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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:01:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Subject: RE: Water Question

ON Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:10:42 -0400
WALT CROWDER at gsnetworks.gensig.com wrote:
Subject: Water question

    This is my first post after lurking for a couple of years.  I recently moved
to a new home that has a well.  My previous house had public water and my beer
was always fine.  I haven't brewed yet :(   I'm still getting my brewery
together.  My water goes through a purifier and softener.  I will be getting a
basic water test from the people contracted to take care of the softener.  

Softened water is generally not the best for brewing. Typical softening
systems replace "hardness" ions with sodium. Luckily, properly installed
softening systems do not provide softened water to outside water taps. You
might consider having water from an outside hose bib tested. Also, what kind
of "purifier" is in line with the softener? If the water is being filtered
before entering the water softener you might find that to be the best place
to obtain your brewing water. In either case, an analysis for bacteria and
mineral content would be a good idea.


********************************************************************     	
Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
CORNY KEGS FOR SALE!  $12.00 each
http://www.calweb.com/~robertac/keg.htm
ProMash Brewers' Software - http://www/calweb.com/~robertac/promash
********************************************************************



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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 11:00:17 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Dave Line, Dave Miller, oops

My apologies to Dave Miller.  I incorrectly cited Dave Line as the author
of Continental Pilsner.  And I had the book in my hand at the time.
Must've been frazzled by all those pellets for dry hopping!
nathan


Nathan L. Kanous II, Pharm.D., BCPS
Clinical Assistant Professor
School of Pharmacy
University of Wisconsin - Madison
Office Phone (608) 263-1779
Pager (608) 265-7000 #2246 (digital)


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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:20:14 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Oxidation / Deoxygenating water / Hop pellets

     Hi all,
     
     Dave has a sherry-like character in his beer.  It seems to be forming 
     pretty quickly.  He wonders if the cause is hot side aeration (HSA) or 
     cold side aeration (CSA) of the finished beer.
     
     Since the beer is becoming damaged so quickly, I would guess that you 
     are aerating the finished beer excessively.  While HSA is bad, CSA is 
     much worse.  It can reduce the shelf-life of your beer to a couple of 
     weeks (a friend experienced damage to an Altbier in less than 2 weeks 
     by getting too much air pickup when racking).
     
     Commercial brewers go to great pains to keep air out of the finished 
     beer, and we should, too (within reason).  Some likely places to look:
     
     1.  The connection between a solid tube and a soft tube (i.e., where   
     your tubing meets a bottle filler or racking cane).
     2.  Splashing of the beer into a carboy or bottle. 3.  Stirring in the 
     priming solution.
     4.  Excessive headspace in the bottle.
     5.  Suck-back through the airlock when cooling a carboy.
     
     The list goes on and on.  Some of the techniques I use to help 
     minimize air exposure include using a keg as a bottling tank (purge it 
     with CO2, add the primings and beer through the liquid-in fitting, 
     etc.), minimizing beer transfers (you don't always need a "secondary 
     fermenter"), using kegs for lagering rather than carboys (no air can 
     get in), etc.
     
     A little paranoia goes a long way in minimizing air pick-up! 
     -------------------------------
     Gregg asks about diluting his accidental ice beer back to its proper 
     gravity.  He is understandably concerned about using water to do this 
     because of the potential for oxidation.
     
     There are several ways to deoxygenate water.  A popular method at 
     large breweries is to bubble hydrogen through the water in the 
     presence of a palladium catalyst (in the form of small balls).  The 
     hydrogen reacts with the oxygen in the water to form more water.  How 
     clever!
     
     You probably won't try that at home though, so just file that info 
     under "stupid things to say at a party."  For home use I recommend 
     boiling some water and running it through a counter-flow chiller into 
     the fermenter.  Boiling will drive off all of the oxygen (and other 
     gasses), and quickly chilling it in the enclosed environment of the CF 
     chiller will prevent it from reabsorbing any air. 
     --------------------------------
     Nathan writes in to comment about Al K.'s dry hopping of a Pilsner, 
     and questions the use of pellets in this application.
     
     Why would you not use pellets?  Other than the hops I have grown 
     myself, I have never seen (or smelled) whole hops in good condition at 
     a homebrew shop (yes, even the ones that are vacuum packed in mylar 
     bags).  Hop pellets are convenient to store, *stay fresh better than 
     whole hops*, and have the fortunate habit of sinking to the bottom of 
     whirlpools and carboys.
     
     Some folks may argue that whole hops are less processed and more 
     natural, etc., but I prefer to choose my ingredients because of 
     freshness and quality rather than philosophical ideals.  If you can 
     get fresh, whole hops, feel free (and lucky!) to use them.  Don't 
     choose your ingredients for the wrong reasons, though.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:33:18 -0400
From: Peter.Perez at smed.com
Subject: one CO2, two fridges

I was wondering if anyone had a setup with one CO2 cylinder, and two
refrigerators.  If so, how did you set it up?  Where did you get the
fittings, etc?  How do you know if it is safe to drill thru the side walls
of your fridge?  Answers to these types of question would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks,

Pete




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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 13:24:37 -0400
From: "Victor Farren" <vfarren at smtp.cdie.org>
Subject: Refrigerator temp controllers/ SS aerating stone <-- source of

I have been thinking for a while about getting an extra refrigerator and 
now that I have an opportunity to get one at a good price I have a few 
questions:

I know that Johnson Controls makes a variety of temperature controllers.  
I have checked some online catalogs and came across two different types.  
The first claimed a 2 degree differential, and the other claimed a 3.5 
degree differential.  The price difference is almost negligible ($5) but 
the brewstore w/ the 3.5 differential claimed it would save a lot of wear 
and tear on the compressor.  I like the idea of saving my compressor and I 
think that 3.5 vs 2 degrees isn't a whole lot (seeing that the temp of 
the beer probably wouldn't fluctuate much at all anyway b/c liquids are  
slower to absorb/dissipate thermal energy than air).  Does anyone have any 
thoughts on this?  Would the compressor really work that much extra (claim 
was that it would have to work twice as hard to maintain 2 degree diff. as 
opposed to the 3.5 degree diff.)?

Also, both refrigerator controllers are the type where the temperature 
sensor bends around the door of the fridge.  What other types of 
controllers are there?  Are they worth the extra money or are the 'door' models 
just as effective?

SS aerating stone:  I a lucky enough to have 5lb tank of O2.  I want to 
use it to aerate my wort using a 2 micron SS aerating stone.  I was 
planning on sanitizing it by boiling it in water.  Is this enough?  My 
concern is that it can become a source of infection if it is not properly 
cleaned and sterilized between batches.

Thanks in advance, private e-mails are ok

Victor J. Farren
Research & Reference Services
PPC/CDIE/DI/RRS
Tel: (202) 661-5842
Fax: (202) 661-5891
E-mail: vfarren at rrs.cdie.org 


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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:33:19 EDT
From: ZIMURGIST at aol.com
Subject: Re: Dryhopping Continental Pilseners

Greetings All,
Some one recently posted that Dave line advocated dry-hopping w/saaz for a
pilsener. Al K. responded previous to that and said it was a no-no (out of
style).
I pulled out my trusty dusty Continental Pilsener book by Dave Miller. In it
he refers to dry-hopping with saaz specifically in all his recipes. I have
dry-hopped with saaz in both leaf and pellet form(but not at the same time). I
liked the results but the beer seemed a little"grassy" tasting. I then tried a
hop tea made by boiling 1 cup H2O and then steeping the hops in that for
several minutes (<5). The hops were contained in a nylon hop bag. The hops and
tea were then put in the keg.
This seemed to produce a fuller rounder hop aroma profile (IMO) better than
dry-hopping or hop tea alone. I think the brief heating of the hops keeps the
grassy tones down while accentuating the hop aroma. I've also tried this
technique with my pale ales and have enjoyed the results (YMMV).

It worked well for me!

David Schmidthuber
Zimurgist at aol.com


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Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 13:33:27 -0500
From: Tim Burkhart <tburkhart at dridesign.com>
Subject: Brew Evaluation

Awhile back on the HBD, Robert Parker requested if anyone might participate,
or simply share their opinion, in a flavor profile survey of a limited
number of commercially available beers. I mailed him privately asking him to
fwd on any info. Robert responded saying that he had not gotten any
responses from his post. So with Robert's permission, I am going to reword
his request and fish for a response.

I have read various passages from homebrew texts on how to make a complete
sensory evaluation of my brew.  I have also tried to follow along with my
brew in hand and written down what I thought the texts said I should look
for...aroma, head, lace, color, clarity, fruity, estery, grainy, nutty,
grassy, catty, etc... However, lacking any experience in beer evaluation, my
perception of aroma, color, and individual flavors are simply my opinion.

What I am looking for is an example of a complete tasting profile of a
commercial brew. 

I would like to purchase this brew and follow along with the profile.  If
this beer were Guinness Pub Draught, for example, I would have a tangible
starting point for a real evaluation of this particular stout; ie, dense
creamy tan head, black and opaque color, roasted malt, etc... That's as far
as my evaluation skills go.  

I want to astound my wife and friends with bigger, nerdier words and in
depth perception without talking out of my...well you get the idea. :^) Can
I acheive this without participation in a spiked brew test or by enrolling
in Siebel? Opinions, published examples, websites appreciated.

Tim Burkhart
Kansas City



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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:58:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Irish Moss

Chuck asks me to clarify (sorry) my position on Irish Moss.

I've found (as per George Fix's recommendation) the proper amount of
Irish Moss in an *allgrain* batch is approximately 1 teaspoon per
5 gallons.  If you've got a very high-gravity wort (i.e. proportionately
more protein) you may want to use proportionately more Irish Moss.

My own experiments have shown that for *extract* batches, the proper
amount of Irish Moss is 1/4 teaspoon per 5-gallon batch.  I theorise
that this is true because much of the protein has been removed during
the production of the extract.

Furthermore, I've found that as little as two times the recommended amount
of Irish Moss can be *worse* than none at all!  Yes... I read this first
in Beer and Brewing (forget the volume) the transcripts of the AHA
National Conference.  It was in a talk by Terry Foster who explained
in detail why too much of a fining can be worse than none at all.  It
was called "Clear Beer, Please" if memory serves correctly.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:18:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Sherry-like aromas/flavours

Dave asks what can cause sherry-like aromas/flavours.  In my experience,
this is most likely due to Hot-Side Aeration.  You should review your
procedures (stirring the mash too eagerly?) and equipment (a kettle
spigot sucking in air?) and see if you have indeed eliminated all
possibile sources of HSA.  I'm sure that the chemists will correct me
if I'm wrong, but molecular oxygen need not be present for oxidation
to occur (this I know for sure)... I believe that iron in your water
can cause oxidation problems (this is where I need the chemists to
confirm or refute).

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:26:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: *Miller's* Continental Pilsner

Nathan confuses Dave Line and Dave Miller, I believe.  In Dave Miller's
Continental Pilsner, he does indeed dryhop every beer.  I am confident
that it is incorrect (and I've got references to prove it) that Bohemian
Pilsners are not dryhopped, but I'm also currently doing some research
into Miller's claim that Warsteiner dryhops their (German) Pilsner.  Miller
is the *only* source I can find where the claim is made that commercial
German *lager* brewers are dryhopping (some Duesseldorfer Altbier brewers do
dryhop their Sticke).  I'll post a complete report on my findings when
I get a few answers back from across the big pond.

Al.


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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:39:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: dryhopped Bohemian

James asks was my dryhopped Bohemian Pils any good.

Yes, it was a tasty, drinkable beer, but nobody would mistake it for
a Pilsner (Bohemian or otherwise).  It was slightly grassy, quite
estery (hop oils have many esters) and very un-Pils-like.  I suppose
that I could have entered it as a Pale Ale, but you could tell the
hops were Saaz (spicy/peppery) and there again we have a stylistic
error.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 14:52:00 -0700
From: "LordPeter" <BARLEYWINE at prodigy.net>
Subject: RE: PPVP;Oxidation;Dry Hop;Wild Yeast;Efficiency;Dilution;Grist%

Happy BrewDay!!


I will try to answer several of #2763 posts at once.

1a) Randi Ricchi talks of polyclar and his methods of usage. Randi uses a
combination of bentonite (silica gel) and PPVP. While this is indeed a very
effective combination, as the bentonite removes the proteinaceous materials
and the PVPP removes the tannoids, I would like to ask Randi if the beer
proofed with the combination suffered any loss of mouthfeel, head retention,
etc. due to loss of proteins.

               (From Siebel: untreated beer:    7.5 EBC haze
                           treated with silica gel:    2.5 EBC haze
           treated with silica gel and PVPP:    1.5 EBC  haze)


The PITA of bentonite urges one to try the simplicity of PVPP alone.
Bentonite needs to be rehydrated through a process that requires 24 or
more hours preparation. Compare this to 10 minutes with PVPP.
Furthermore, PVPP will completely settle within one to two days (Polyclar-10
requires 48 hours, Polyclar-88 requires 8 hours,) while bentonite
(if properly applied) may take one or two weeks. Bentonite will cause the
loss of .5 gallons or so.
My opinion is that PPVP is probably the BEST chill proofer, all things
considered.
Use Polyclar at a rate of 2.4 grams (two level tsp.) per 5 gallons. Use
one cup clean water to make a slurry. Two days later, at the bottom of your
brilliantly clear fermenter there will be a tight layer that will stay put.

1b) Indeed, fining your beer, in addition to removing the tannoids, "will
also remove a fraction of the smaller phenolics that ... might be desirable
for
balanced flavor." (BT Dec. 1997, pg 75, Steve Alexander) The 4-Vinyl
Guaiacol and its precursor, ferulic acid, are said to be monophenols. While
their attraction to adsorbents is not as great as tannoids, there is a
danger here.

2)Dave Williams has problems with sherry like oxidation:

    Tannins are responsible for the formation of these oxidation reactions.
Use PVPP.
Also, be sure you evacuate with co2 before filling your bottles.

3) Dry Hopping: Nathan Kanous read a book by Dave Miller, not Dave Line.
    IMO, dry hopping in a delicate style like Bo Pils should be done very
carefully. There is no to very very little hop aroma in PU. I like to use
late kettle additions for aroma here. Saaz, Tett, or my fave, Strisselspalt.

4) Hey David Humes: RE: Poor Hefe Head, wild yeast not likely culprit.
    I had a 12 gallon batch of Hefe, which was fermented with wyeast 3068.
Half was bottled, and half was cold conditioned for three months. The latter
half was then bottled with a fresh dose of lager yeast. The normal batch
after another three months (6 months bottle time) had a very anemic head and
no body. The lager yeasted bottles and the same time (3 months bottle time)
were rich and exhibited great head. Another brewer told a similar tale of
3068. Perhaps it has some peculiar protein reducing properties? Does anyone
from Wyeast read this digest?

5) Jonathan Edwards is concerned about efficiency;
    Hey Jon, how are you calculating your efficiency? You need to know the
CG data for every grain in your bill before you can hope to be accurate.

6) Gregg Soh needs to dilute his "Eis Ale".
    Adjust water pH. Preboil, and then pour it into a co2 filled keg. Seal
and carbonate to proper volume. Do a closed pressurized keg to keg transfer.

7) Jeff Scroeder is right, (Sorry AlK.)The percentage of EXTRACT from each
grains contribution is important. If anyone is interested in the RIGHT way
to calculate a grain bill, e-mail me privately.
And Jeff, just for fun, in the recipe you mentioned:
>                        90% Two row,
>                           5% wheat
>                            5% Crystal (lets use crystal 20)
to get a Original Extract of 12, in 10 gallons, using all Briess grains, how
would YOU calculate it. BTW, the Siebel Brew Computer gives this figure to
achieve 12 plato:
12.6 kg extract / hl

Brewing a Trippel tonight ;']

Cheers.
Peter Gilbreth
barleywine at prodigy.net
www.barleywine.com





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Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:29:30 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: CO2 Tanks

"Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net> wrote

>I put a CO2 tank and regulator in the refrigerator along with the
>Corny kegs and was wondering something. I know that the tank's pressure
>reading changes with temperature same as with scuba tanks and the like but
>the volume does not. So, do I adjust the output pressure at ambient
>temperature and leave it alone or re-adjust it after placing it in the
>refrigerator and allowing ample time for the temperature to adjust?

You can answer this yourself by doing a thought experiment (that's how
Einstein figured out relativity; we're not as smart as Einstein, but this
isn't theoretical physics, either).

The pressure gauge is reading the pressure in a static system after it has
come to equilibrium, meaning the pressure is the same at all points of the
system.    (If the pressure weren't the same at all points, then gas would
flow from higher to lower pressure until it became the same).  Irrespective
of where you put the tank regulator and gauge, the beer with its dissolved
CO2 and the headspace over it are going to be in the fridge.  So the
pressure in the equilibrated system will be the same in either case, and
the pressure will read the same.  Of course, this assumes you have a
temperature compensated pressure gauge that reads accurately over the range
of temperatures.

So the answer is, use the same pressure setting as you would if the tank
were outside the fridge based on easily available tables showing vol. CO2
for temp and presuure.  And, contrary to what some have posted some years
ago, you won't use up the gas any sooner with the tank in the fridge.

Jeff

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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