---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Fetch the truck (David Kerr)
  Bad tasting starters (George_De_Piro)
  Pumpkin flavor contributions (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  375 mL Lambic/Champagne Bottles (Wayne_Kozun)
  3068 woes -- huh? ("Jay Spies")
  REPORT: Colorado Brewers Rendezvous (BrewsTraveler)
  Caution advised when using denatured alcohol (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Hop Aroma from Pellets vs Whole (Charley Burns)
  Pre-Chiller & ice (kenmiller)
  Sherry-like flavors/oxidation (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Re: "Jethro Gump Report" (FBI/BATF/ATF)
  Any good chemistry of brewing books? (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Re: Carboy lime deposits (Richard Sewards)
  percentage by weight (Al Korzonas)
  Rigid insulation (fridge)
  Re: Short Lag Times (Alan Edwards)
  5 gallons before or after break material settles / stuck mash (Peter.Perez)
  Dryhopping lagers (Al Korzonas)
  force carb in a keg, then bottle? (Peter.Perez)
  Re: Europe boondoggle ("Bryan L. Gros")
  david monday's $20 soda kegs (Jonathan Edwards)
  chiller water temp (Michael Lausin)
  AHA/Infections/IM/Cornies (Kyle Druey)
  Re: Mold in the basements (Jeffrey_Glenn_York/UTK)
  Wy 3068 / Broken Carboys and Aerating / True Pint Measures (Marc.Arseneau)
  Deoxygenation (AJ)
  Re: History of the Stout.. (John Murphy)
  Malts and conversion times ("Chuck Bernard")


Have you entered a MCAB qualifier yet?


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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:47:29 -0400
From: David Kerr <dkerr at semc.org>
Subject: Fetch the truck

The estimable Jack Schmidling asks:
> Who or what is Jethro Gump and why does someone name Rob Moline
> post it?

Theories regarding the Gump phenomenon abound, but I lean more to the
Jethro side of the equation, that Gump is Moline's pool, er, cee-ment
pond maintenance guy, can cipher IBU calculations (due to his education
clear on up through the 4th grade), and has benefitted from Grannie's
Ozark culinary tradition by creating a modern day cock ale variant,
possum ale (not yet sanctioned as a beer style).  His pursuits in the
fields of brain surgery and big screen acting leave him no time to post
to HBD, hence the Moline tag.
Dave Kerr Needham, MA  Thousands of miles from the hills of Beverly


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:47:16 -0700
From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com
Subject: Bad tasting starters

     Hi all,
     
     There has been some talk about pitching the entire volume of a yeast 
     starter.  Some people don't want to do this because of the potential 
     that the starter will taste bad and ruin the wort.  Others may not 
     want to pitch the entire starter because it is made from a wort very 
     much different from the main batch.
     
     Allen writes in saying that he recently tasted his starter for the 
     first time and found it to be pleasant, so he didn't understand all 
     the hullabaloo.
     
     Starters only taste bad when they are made with constant aeration or 
     agitation.  If you treat the starter like a "normal" ferment (aerate 
     only at the start, no constant mixing, normal temperatures, etc.) the 
     starter will taste like young beer (as Allen discovered).  If you use 
     techniques to maximize the yeast growth, the starter will have some 
     funny flavors (high fusel alcohols, aldehydes from oxidized alcohol, 
     etc.).
     
     Should you dump the contents of a "maxi-growth" starter into your 
     precious wort?  I don't know; never tried it.  I usually allow it to 
     ferment out, dump off the somewhat clear liquid, and feed it wort that 
     more closely matches my main batch a day or two before brew day.  This 
     way, the yeast is working in an environment more similar to the main 
     batch, and I need not be concerned about off flavors being added to 
     the beer.
     
     I am always surprised to hear (um, read) about people that don't taste 
     their starters.  That is damn courageous!  How do you know that you 
     aren't pitching your wort with an accidental Brettanomyces culture or 
     somesuch?  I almost always taste the wort just prior to pitching (and 
     always taste it during the propagation process).
     
     The first (and only) time I didn't do this was this past Sunday night 
     (um, Monday morning).  Due to a series of small disasters (including 
     the second brewing related flood of my dining room), I was quite tired 
     and just pitched the yeasts without a thought.  This was foolish, 
     because I was using different yeasts for different reasons, and 
     pitched the wrong ones into the different fermenters.  Had I tasted 
     the damn things first, this would never have happened.  I guess I 
     could have avoided this by simply reading the labels properly, too.  
     Oops.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George De Piro  (Nyack, NY)


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:09:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Pumpkin flavor contributions

Just chiming in on the recent discussion re whether or not pumpkin
contributes any discernable character to the finished beer. I'd have to
say that I've been able to detect pumpkin flavors in some pumpkin
beers (both my own as well as others) although they are certainly
*subtle*   I don't think this is too surprising considering how mild
pumpkin is - it's hard for its flavor to shine through, especially when it
has to compete with the "pumpkin pie" type spices typically included in
these beers. If you want the pumpkin character I think you have to use a
LOT of pumpkin meat in the mash and tone the spices way down. 

Happy Brewing!

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"Graduate school is the snooze button on the alarm clock of life."
	
	-Jim Squire


 -Alan Meeker
Johns Hopkins Hospital
Dept. of Urology

(410) 614-4974
__________________________________________________________________





Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:19:36 -0400
From: Wayne_Kozun at otpp.com
Subject: 375 mL Lambic/Champagne Bottles

Has anyone tried using the 375 mL bottles that lambic come in for bottling
their beer (I believe these are actually just 375 mL champagne bottles)?
The mouth is a little larger, so regular crowns won't fit.  Where do you
get the larger crowns that fit these bottles (not to mention 750 mL
champagne bottles)?  Can they be bought at any mail order places?  And do
you need a special capper to cap these bottles?

And what if I want to cork these bottles instead of capping.  Do you need a
special corker to cork champagne bottles?  I have a corker for corking wine
bottles, but I don't think this could be used for champagne bottles as the
larger end would not fit through the corker.

When it comes time to bottle my p-Lambics how should I bottle it?  Should I
use these champagne type bottles or regular bottles?  If I use champagne
type bottles should I use champagne corks, crowns or crowns and wine corks
(as a few lambics are bottled)?




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:21:42 +0000
From: "Jay Spies" <spiesjl at mda.state.md.us>
Subject: 3068 woes -- huh?

All -

George DePiro said in #2767 that "after 3 months of contact with 
3068, every Weizen that I have made suffers from autolysis damage, 
regardless of storage temperature."

Just another datapoint, but I recently pulled a 3068 Weizen out from 
my cellar that was stored in a 2-liter growler flip-top bottle.  This 
particular bottle was well into its 14th month of storage (cellar 
temps hover in the low to mid 60's).  Expecting it to be thin and 
headless, I was surprised to see that it had a thick, almost creamy 
head, and the clove and banana phenols/esters were intact (although 
the banana had faded somewhat.)  What gives here?  Has Wyeast changed 
the composition of its 3068 over time?  There was a mini-thread about 
the 1 strain/2 strain 3068 possibility, but all that I can say is 
that the Weizen that I brewed was remarkably stable and 
autolysis-free.  BTW, it was primed, not force CO2'd; I don't know if 
this is a factor with others who have experienced problems . . .

Drinking great year-old Weizen . . .

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:42:55 -0600 (MDT)
From: BrewsTraveler at adamsco-inc.com
Subject: REPORT: Colorado Brewers Rendezvous



                       Colorado Brewers Rendezvous

 
   The Colorado Brewers Rendezvous was held on Independence Day, July
   4th, along the banks of the Arkansas river in Salida Colorado.  The
   weather has overcast and even sprinkled for a short time but the
   atmosphere was very casual, the location was fantastic, and the beers
   outstanding!

   As typical for Broomfield's Keg Ran Out Club, we were in high 
   attendance for the event.  With most of the members choosing to camp 
   out above the Arkansas river valley, my wife and I decided to rough it 
   in our 3-room suite.

   With the event held in the small mountain town of Salida (with a 
   fantastic view of the Mt. Otero, Princeton, and Harvard) the crowd was
   casual with virtually no lines waiting for a beer. Breweries may choose 
   to bring as many styles as they wish, and talking shop with the brewers 
   (who operate their own booths) makes the day very enjoyable.  This 
   festival is a must-attend event in my book!

   I chatted with Brewers Guild Director John Carlson about Il Vincino's
   Hop O'rama.  Bottle openers was the topic with AHA Administrator Brian 
   Rezac (a re-occurring discussion of ours) and I said hi to an old Aler,
   Dan Rabin.

   There were two beers that I vote as my favorite beer: Il Vincino's Hop 
   O'rama, a beer brewed especially for the event; and Dillion Dam's Pale 
   Ale (a dam fine beer).  Unfortunately finding Il Vincino's sud may be 
   difficult if not possible but definitely look for Dam's Pale Ale.


   John "The Brews Traveler" Adams
   http://www.adamsco-inc.com/BrewsTraveler

   -----


   Hefeweizen (2.5/4)
   Thunder Ridge

   A slightly sour beer and not quite enough banana/clove character.  No 
   big flaws but not quite to the Hefe-Weizen style.


   Hop O'rama (3.5/4 -- Best of Show)
   Il Vincino

   Big time hops, and I mean big time!  A serious IPA for the serious 
   hop head.  This beer brewed especially for the festival.  Not a simple 
   hopped IPA but truly Hop O'rama!


   Way Pale Ale (3.5/4)
   Cheyenne Mountain Brewing

   Sweet and dry.  Finishes dry in a unique way that is difficult to
   describe.  Dry hopped with a pleasant malt sweetness.  Improves the 
   more you drink it.


   Misty Flips Red Ale (3/4)
   Blick's Brewing Co.

   Fruity and malty sweet with a dry finish.  Nice red and amber hue that 
   is both refreshing to look at and drink.  With its dry hop character 
   it should make a good before-dinner, appetizer beer.


   Pale Ale (3.5/4 -- Best of Show)
   Dillion Dam Brewing Company

   Nice hoppy aroma and flavor.  Nice malt characters and very well 
   balanced.  Finishes dry but leaves a lingering sweetness.  Should make 
   an excellent backyard Bar-B-Que refresher.


   Pelican Smoked Porter (2.5/4)
   Redfish New Orleans Brewhouse

   A slightly peated taste.  Some diacytl is present (probably from the 
   smoked malt).  Malty and not unlike a Dunkel but finishes dry a bit
   drier.


- ---
Brews Traveler(tm)
Copyright 1998 by John Adams


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:49:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Caution advised when using denatured alcohol

John Biggins recently wrote in about the use of "denatured" alcohol for
sterilization purposes. I believe a word of caution is in order here.
Denatured ethanol has had one or more nasty chemicals (amyl alcohol,
camphor, methanol, acetone, etc...) added to it in order to make it
unpalatable. While it is certainly much cheaper than buying pure ethanol
(so-called "grain alcohol") from a liquor store and it will function
perfectly well as a disinfectant it would probably be wise to limit the
amount of denatured alcohol that gets carried over into the final product.
Keep in mind that it takes a dose just 2 grams of methanol to cause
irreversible damage to the retina of the eye! 

An interesting fact if you haven't already heard it - a 70% solution of
ethanol is a more effective sanitizing agent that 100% pure alcohol. So
dilute up and save money too!

Happy fermenting!  

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"Graduate school is the snooze button on the alarm clock of life."
	
	-Jim Squire


 -Alan Meeker
Johns Hopkins Hospital
Dept. of Urology

(410) 614-4974
__________________________________________________________________





Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 98 08:12 PDT
From: caburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charley Burns)
Subject: Hop Aroma from Pellets vs Whole

I was leafing through one of Dave Miller's books last night and came across 
one of his Pilsner recipes. His brewer notes specifically said that if 
you're using whole hop cones, add the aroma hops 5 minutes from the end of 
the boil, while if you're using pellets for aroma hops, add them at knock out.

Supports the theory that was being discussed here a few days ago (forgot by 
whom) that the crushing makes the aromatic compounds more easily extracted. 
I didn't realize that I needed to make this adjustment since switching to 
exclusively using whole hops.

(Randy - I'm selling the Centennial for $1 per half pound and they're a very 
easy sell)

Charley in N. Cal.



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:17:54 -0400
From: kenmiller <kenmiller at geocities.com>
Subject: Pre-Chiller & ice

I too have been using a pre-chiller for my wort chiller.  Not
necessarily because of water temperature, but as someone else pointed
out, the Home-boy Depot minimum length is 50 feet.  I've gotten the
impression that several people are buying ice to use in the pre-chiller
and thought I'd pass along something my family has been doing for
years.  Anytime we need ice which won't be consumed in any way
(pre-chiller, cooler for beer, etc.) we would fill up empty milk cartons
with water and pop them into the freezer.  Use a hammer to get the ice
out.  All the ice you need for almost free.  (Here's the chance for
someone to calculate the cost to freeze 1/2 gallon of H20.)

Just another way to keep the cost of our brews down...

Ken



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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:20:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Sherry-like flavors/oxidation

Dave Williams writes concerning his suspicion that his beer is becoming
oxidized. While it's true that oxygen is a prime suspect in beer oxidation
it should be kept in mind that oxidation/reduction reactions are in fact
exchanges of electrons and while oxygen is a good (and fairly ubiquitous 
in brewing systems) electron acceptor, it is by no means the only one. 
Other compounds, and many metals especially, are very good at shuttling
electrons around. If you've really done a good job of eliminating oxygen
as your prime suspect you might want to broaden your scope...

I'm experiencing similar problems with the 4 cases of Big Quaf IPA that I
brewed before the summer temps hit here in Baltimore. Unfortunately, I'm
AC-challanged so can't brew in the summer heat and in anticipation of this
I made a big batch of my favorite brew to carry me through the summer.
I've been storing them under the house (crawlspace not a basement) which
is a good 10 deg. F cooler than the outside temp. This apparently doesn't
cut it as when it's 90 out it's still in the 80's where the beer is. I've
definitely noticed an increase of "sherry-like" flavors coming up. Guess
the only solution is to drink them at a faster rate!

 
Cheers!



- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"Graduate school is the snooze button on the alarm clock of life."
	
	-Jim Squire


 -Alan Meeker
Johns Hopkins Hospital
Dept. of Urology

(410) 614-4974
__________________________________________________________________





Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:28:16 -0500
From: FBI/BATF/ATF <skotrat at wwa.com>
Subject: Re: "Jethro Gump Report"


>From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
>Subject: Re: "Jethro Gump Report"

>Who or what is Jethro Gump and why does someone name Rob Moline
>post it?

>js


Do Not Worry Good Citizens... We are hot on his trail..

 -Janet Reno



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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:35:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Any good chemistry of brewing books?

Hi. I was wondering if there are any decent books out there on brewing
chemistry and/ or brewing science? I just received a  copy of George
Fix's 1989 book and am truly dismayed by the poor quality of the
information contained in it. It's hard to believe this book was proofread
at all given the multitude of errors throughout the text. If it was
proofed it apparently wasn't by anyone with even a high school level
course in chemistry! Have such deficiencies been corrected in his latest
book Principles of Brewing Science? Are there other books anyone can
recommend...?

Thanks, Alan


- ------------------------------------------------------------------

 -Alan Meeker
Johns Hopkins Hospital
Dept. of Urology

(410) 614-4974
__________________________________________________________________





Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:42:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Richard Sewards <rsewards at nettestca.gn.com>
Subject: Re: Carboy lime deposits


On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, "Kevin R. Martin" <kmartin at creston.heartland.net> wrote:

> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:06:54 -0500
> From: "Kevin R. Martin" <kmartin at creston.heartland.net>
> Subject: Carboy lime deposits
> 
[snip]
> 
> I recently left water in one of my carboys for several weeks.  When I
> emptied it, I found that there were little lime deposits all over the
> inside, especially toward the bottom.  I thought for a while about what to
> do.  I remembered, from my days as an Engineer for Bunn-O-Matic coffee
> brewers, that they used to clean lime deposits from tanks & etc using white
> vinegar.  I shared an office with an Engineer that had worked for
> Bunn-O-Matic for 30+ years.  He told me that he put a pot full of white
> vinegar through his coffee brewer about every 6-months to get rid of lime
> deposits.  Afterwards, he would flush the coffee pot with 15-20 pots of
> water.
> 
> I heated about a quart of white vinegar in a saucepan until it was hot to
> touch, and dumped it into my carboy.  I then sloshed it around for a while
> and waited.  In about 5 minutes, the lime deposites were gone.  
> 
> I just thought that I would pass this along for anyone who didn't have the
> opportunity to work with someone who could advise them of white vinegar's
> ability to remove lime deposits.

I've had similar problems with something I've been told is "beer stone". 
I now clean my carboys with hot CLR (as seen on TV !), which, like
vinegar, is acidic, before I sanitize them. 

What is this "beer stone" stuff ?

Thanks,

- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Sewards                 richard.sewards at nettestca.gn.com
GN Nettest (Datacom Division)   (905) 479-8090, fax:(905) 475-6524
55 Renfrew Drive,               
Markham, ON, CANADA, L3R 8H3    =* 121245




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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:28:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: percentage by weight

Michael writes:
>> >>Unless otherwise specified, recipes specify the percentages of the >grist
>> >>by the weight of the malt.
> 
>        I orginally posted this question and shortly after posting found the
>answer in Ray Danials book DGB---It's by the extract, not the weight.

I'm afraid I have to continue to disagree.  I believe that Ray is wrong
here if he means that this is the standard way of expressing a grist in a
recipe.  A question for the collective: When you say you made a beer with
"50% wheat," do you mean you got 50% of the extract from wheat or do you
mean that you used 5 pounds of barley malt and 5 pounds of wheat malt?
When you write "...I used 10% Aromatic in my Altbier -- the rest being
Munich" did you figure out points and then do the division or did you
just use 3 pounds of Aromatic and 27 pounds of Munich?

I *always* have meant percentage by weight and I'm willing to bet that
no poster to the HBD or author of a brewing book (except for perhaps Ray
and Lewis) has meant percentage by extract when talking about grists.

The one case where I feel that percentage by extract may be more common
is when you are talking about adding refined sugar (candi sucre in
Tripels and Dubbels, for example).  Here's where I think you have to
read carefully to see whether the author meant extract or weight.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:00:35 -0400
From: fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu
Subject: Rigid insulation

Greetings folks,

 I've been made aware of a statement I made recently that 
may be misleading.
  
 In HBD #2766 I replied to a question by Randy Miner 
about his Tappan side-by-side fridge. Among other things, 
he asked about adding insulation to help minimize 
operating costs. In my reply, I suggested adding rigid 
insulation to the *outside* of the cabinet. This is a valid 
suggestion for his particular fridge.

 However, since many *freezers* have their condenser 
coil attached to the inside of the outer cabinet wall, adding 
insulation to the outside would quickly cause the freezer to 
overheat. I know of no domestic refrigerator/freezers that 
are made this way.

 Before adding insulation to the outside of *any* fridge or 
freezer, be sure not to block any air passages or grilles, 
and make sure the condenser coil is not located inside the 
outer cabinet wall.

Sorry for any confusion.
- ---------------------------------------------
Hope this helps!

Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu


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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:11:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Short Lag Times

Marc Battreall uses a *simpler* method of aerating and wonders why it
appears to work better than an airstone:
| 
| At pitching time I would normally aerate the wort for at least a half
| hour, but this time I did not because I broke my last aerating stone.
| So instead I poured the starter into the carboy and splashed the 80F
| wort into it pouring it through a sanitized nylon screen.  Got a pretty
| good amount of foam of course and had to stop pouring a few times to
| let it settle.  Well, after that was done, I left it sit and came back
| 2 hours later and the foam was gone but guess what was there, a nice
| 1-2 inch bubbling, rising ever so slowly head of krausen.  (Yes, krausen,
| I know the difference between it and foam).  I never have experienced
| such a short lag time since I started brewing, even in my early days
| with rehydrated dry yeast!  Especially considering that I did not aerate
| the wort or starter.  Hmmmm.....
 
But, you *did* aerate the wort!  I'd say that you did an entirely
sufficient job of aerating.
 
I've contended on several occasions that using an aerating stone is
a big waste of time and money.  If you want to reduce your lag times,
you would do better to concentrate on pitching enough yeast (making
a starter), and worry a little less about geting the wort supersaturated
with pure O2.
 
I let the wort dribble into the carboy (from the CF chiller) and then
simply shake the carboy to make it foam up.  I then, usually, pitch an
800ml 3-day-old starter.  I have *never* had a problem with lag times
with these simple methods.

But, this is just my opinion / experience!  YMMV
 
 -Alan



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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:20:55 -0400
From: Peter.Perez at smed.com
Subject: 5 gallons before or after break material settles / stuck mash

My typical procedure for extract or partial mash brews is to chill in the
kettle, rack into a carboy, top off to 5 gallons, let sit for a few
muinutes until all break material settles, then rack off break into another
carboy(to be used as the primary), pitch yeast and seal.  My question is
after the break settles(it never all settles out int he kettle for me) and
I rack off of it into another carboy for primary fermentation, I probably
no longer have 5 gallons.  I would think that the break probably amounts to
1/2 to 1 gallon.  Does this make sense?  Should I be topping off a second
time after racking off the break?  Any criticisms of my process would be
well appreciated.

One more question - any hints/tips to avoid a stuck mash?  I have started
all-grain brewing not too long ago and I find the toughest thing to do is
get the flow from the hot liquor tank and the flow from the mash/lauter tun
in sync during sparging.  I have had a problem with getting the mash stuck,
even when there appears to be plenty of water on top of the grain bed.

Thanks for all your help.  Personal e-mail and/or reply posts welcome!

Pete




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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 14:32:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Dryhopping lagers

As promised, I did some research on the question of dryhopping in
German and Bohemian Pilsners (and other lagers) and I'm reporting
back.

Since the primary issue here was Bohemian Pilsners, I first checked
the articles on Pilsner Urquell in Brewing Techniques and Zymurgy.
"Pilsner Urquell: The Brewery" by Darryl Richman (Zymurgy Volume 14,
Number 2, Summer 1991) describes their processes in great detail
yet there is no mention of adding hops to the fermenters.  In "The History
of Brewing Methods of Pilsner Urquell" (Brewing Techniques Volume 5,
Issue 3, May-Aug 1997), Peter Ensminger explicitly states that Pilsner
Urquell is not dryhopped.

Several HBD posters (including me) have noted that dryhopped lagers simply
do not taste or smell like their commercial equivalents.

Papazian does not dryhop any of his lagers in TCJoHB.  

Noonan mentions dryhopping in both books, but specifically says that
it is generally inappropriate for lagers.

In Malting and Brewing Science, dryhopping is only mentioned in the
same paragraph with British brewing practices and cask-conditioning.
While this book is primarily about British brewing, they do go into
some details about US and continental beers and practices.  There was
no mention of dryhopping in continental lagers.

DeClerck says about dryhopping: "This practice is frequent in Great
Britain for draught beers."

I send email to Hubert Hanghofer asking whether he or his son (who
is currently at Weihenstephan) has ever heard of dryhopping of
continental lagers.  I haven't gotten a confirmation from his son,
but Hubert agrees with me that continental lagers do not appear to be
dryhopped by any of the brewers and believes that Warsteiner (a beer
that Dave Miller claims is dryhopped) is not dryhopped.  Hubert also
quoted a section from the "EBC Manual of Good Practice" in which it
is stated that whole hop oils do not produce a "satisfactory flavour"
The book specifically mentions "raw hop, tobacco and grassy" notes.

It is also interesting to note that Hubert mentioned that Narziss
(who wrote "Abriss der Bierbrauerei" -- what Hubert calls "our bible")
describes dryhopping during lagering of Altbiers.  My understanding
is that the everyday Altbiers in Duesseldorf are not dryhopped these
days... only the special batches made for their loyal customers
(called "Sticke") are dryhopped by some of the brewers.

I called Ralph Olson at HopUnion and asked him about it.  He said he
has never heard of dryhopping continental lagers, but would check with
his contacts in Germany.  He called me back and said that even his
agent in Germany has never heard of a German or Bohemian brewer dryhopping
a lager.

Dave Miller dryhops all of his lagers.  His claim that Warsteiner is
dryhopped is what really caused me to email Hubert... the Warsteiner
we get here is pretty beat up by the time we get it and when I'm in
Germany, I tend to drink only the beers that I can't get here (a mistake
I should correct on my next visit).  I had theorised that perhaps there
is a strong hop aroma in fresh Warsteiner, but that it fades in transit.
Hubert seems to indicate this is probably not the case.

I don't have Dave Line's book, but it has been posted in HBD that he
does indeed recommend dryhopping lagers, although at a much lower
rate than recommended by Miller.  We should also remember that Line
was British and his methods were no doubt influenced by British
commercial brewers.

Finally, in "Designing Great Beers," Ray Daniels (in the chapter summary page)
says that Continental Pilsners may or may not be dryhopped. However, it is
important to remember that Daniels'recipe recommendations are statistically
derived from the 1993 and 1994 AHA National Homebrew Competition second
round recipes and therefore are at the mercy of errors made by the entrants.
I suspect that Miller's (errant) recommendation to dryhop lagers could
very well be the reason that judges in the 1st round of the `93 and `94
nationals chose to pass 8 dryhopped Pilsners into the second round.

In summary, I believe it is safe to assume that dryhopping should be
reserved for American and English ales ("Sticke" and the Trappist ale
"Orval" being two notable exceptions from Germany and Belgium, respectively).

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:45:07 -0400
From: Peter.Perez at smed.com
Subject: force carb in a keg, then bottle?

Is it possible to force carbonate in a keg, then bottle a six pack or so
from that keg?  I usually keg all my brews, but I'd like to be able to
trade some with other brewers in my area.  If this is possible (I think
I've heard before that it is), what precautions are necessary and how do I
do it?

Thanks,

Pete




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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:07:08 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: Europe boondoggle

>Subject: Europe boondoggle
>
>One thing I really hope will catch on here in the States, is every
>glass over there has a line to mark the volume you are buying, whether
>it was 25dl, 33dl, 50dl, or 1l.  I did see people return beers that
>weren't filled to above this line.  Here in America, people are paying
>a premium for "pints" that are actually only 13 oz. (steal a pint
>glass from your local pub and try it for yourself).  I don't know how
>we can get this practice started, but I wouldn't be adverse to even
>seeing a law enacted.  I would also like to see the smaller 25dl

Thanks for the notes.
One guy in my brewing club is pushing for this idea.  We really
need a CAMRA-type of grassroots pull.  This guy has called the 
state dept of weights and measures to stop by a pub and see if a
pint is a pint.  Needless to say, the pubs weren't very happy with
the fines they got!  
Unfortunately, they missed the point and simply changed their
menus from $3.50/pt to $3.50/large and they are happy.

The sad part is, as you mentioned, that bars can now buy straight
sided mixing glasses that hold 13 oz instead of 16 oz.  
I don't know why brewpubs can't suck it up and buy decent barware
rather than these cocktail mixing glasses.  Sure, they're nearly
indestructable, but their beer deserves a better package.


  - Bryan

Bryan Gros	gros at bigfoot.com
Oakland, CA
Visit the new Draught Board homebrew website:
http://www.valhallabrewing.com/~thor/dboard/index.htm



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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:46:38 -0400
From: Jonathan Edwards <jdedward at us.ibm.com>
Subject: david monday's $20 soda kegs

David Monday <dmonday at thegrid.net: writes:
>Dear Digest Readers,
>I just got a line on some used soda kegs (5 gal, 7-Up types)  at  $20
>each.  If anyone else is interested, e-mail me.

>Dave in N. Cal.

used? refurbished? this is a pretty steep price if not refurbished. sabco sells
used soda kegs not cleaned or refurbished for $12.  that's where i get
mine....cheap prices, good product and pretty good service.

jonathan


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Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:37:48 -0600
From: Michael Lausin <soscc at cmn.net>
Subject: chiller water temp

Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:02:42 -0500
From: David Cato <dcato at peter.bmc.com>
Subject: Re: hot weather wort chilling

In HBD 2764, Randy Miner asks:

> Last question: Any suggestions on chilling when the tap water is 82F ?
> Maybe a chiller in an ice bath then into the wort?

in hbd 2766, david cato wrote:
> Like you, my tap water in the summer is over 80F, which makes it hard to
> sufficiently chill the wort.  

> I use an immersion chiller and augmented it with a pre chiller in an ice
> bath for several batches.  It helped to drop the wort temp to around 75F,
> which is a definite improvement over what the tap water alone could do.
> To improve the chilling, I switched to running ice water thru the chiller.
> The first time I tried this, I attempted to use a sump pump I had but the
> restriction of the 3/8 inch chiller tubing was too great and the pump
> wouldn't run for more than a few minutes before it overheated.  A lower
> flow pump would certainly work better, but I've decided to stick with the
> gravity feed setup for now.

i have a 17 gal wash tub that i put my 5 gal brew kettle into along with
some water (not too much or the kettle floats), and 20# of ice that i
freeze in zip lock bags a few days before. like someone else who posted,
the pre-chiller is copper tubing (that i had wrapped around a paint can to
keep the kinks out) about 20 feet long and the immersion chiller is 30 feet
of copper hooked together with a few feet of food grade tubing. i stick a
big chunk of ice inside the pre-chiller coil and sit it in the water. i use
a swamp cooler pump (immersible, about $20) to pump the water from the tub
thru the pre-chiller and then into the immersion chiller and then back into
the tub. i make sure that the outlet hose causes some water circulation
around the pre-chiller so it can do a better job of exchanging heat. i can
cool 5 gals of wort to 65 degrees in about 15 minutes or so. this not only
cools the wort quickly, but i save on water too.

as always ymmv...

michael lausin



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Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:04:49 -0700
From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net>
Subject: AHA/Infections/IM/Cornies

Alan comments on the AHA:
>I don't see what the uproar is about.  If you don't like what they
>are doing, then don't support them!

Ditto.  I seem to have forgotten all about the AHA and Zymurgy ever
since I discovered the HBD and BT a few years ago.  Perhaps Deb Jolda of
BT would like to take on an additional enterprise and start a new
homebrewing organization than would enfold within it the BJCP and MCAB. 
What the heck, she already has the magazine, how much more work would
this be? :)
********************************

Steve A (good to see you posting regularly again) brings up some good
issues regarding sanitation.  How does one measure the level of
infection in beer just after kegging or bottling?
********************************

Dewayne comments on IM:
>I contend that the proper way to gauge the effectiveness of IM is
>by the amount of hot break left in your kettle.

Don't also forget that some proteins may have been removed by the
maltster (protein modification) and during the mash (proteolysis).  The
effects of these two would not show up in the post boil trub.  Did we
ever agree on the proper amount of IM to add to 5 gal, when to add it,
and if it should be hydrolized before adding?
*******************************

General Questions for the Collective:

Who ferments with SS cornies, how do you use it (open/closed, etc.), do
you use the dip tube to psyphon, how do you clean it?
***************************************

Regarding slants:  how do you flame the plastic cap without flaming your
fingers and burning the plastic.... techniques please.

Also thanks to all who gave me advice on how to fix my "Y" key on my
keyboard.  Popped the sucker off, cleaned it, and it now works like new.

I think it is about time for another *microbrewery review* from the
MI-demolition-man Eric Fouch (were you a former valedictorian at Gross
Point HS?).


Kyle
just felt a quake here Bakersfield, CA


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Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:17:12 -0400
From: Jeffrey_Glenn_York/UTK at ln.utk.edu
Subject: Re: Mold in the basements


Dwayne asks about mold control. I to have suffered from this difficulty
fermenting in the South in a wet basement in the summer. I've found that
spraying the fermenters, stoppers, and airlocks daily with a fairly stiff
bleach/water solution keeps growth to a minimum. I don't worry about it
with bottled beer; just wash 'em off before contests- appearances do count
after all. With wine and mead, spraying the bleach on the corks seems to
help. I've noticed that the fungi seems to grow on corks that are seeping a
tiny bit. I suppose storing them upright would help, but then you've got
dry corks and oxidation. So far I haven't had any beer or wine be ruined by
the fungus amongus.

Jeff York
Tennessee Valley Homebrewers
Knoxville, TN




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Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 06:39:10 -0400
From: Marc.Arseneau at fluordaniel.com
Subject: Wy 3068 / Broken Carboys and Aerating / True Pint Measures

     Wy 3068
     
     I recently (last October) brewed a triple-decoction Hefeweizen, using 
     the 3068 yeast strain.  The beer fermented at 13 deg C, and the result 
     was spectacular!  Possibly the best beer I ever made.  Friends raved  
     that it was the best beer they had ever tasted.
     
     By Spring time this year, the flavour of the beer had begun to 
     degrade.  And in May, I entered the beer in the NNEHBC in Maine.  It 
     still took third place in its category, but all three scoresheets 
     reported what they thought was an infection.
     
     Either I have experienced my first infected beer in 40 batches, or 
     this is a part of the "3068 phenomenon".
     
     Lesson:  3068 is great for making a good Hefe, but don't expect it to 
     keep very long.
     
     -------------------------------------------------------
     
     Broken Carboys and Aerating
     
     I cringe at hearing the story of the broken carboy.  A carboy once 
     slipped out of my hands onto a concrete floor.  The damn thing 
     actually BOUNCED!  But no breakage, no spillage, no trips to the 
     hospital.
     
     As a safe alternative to shaking the carboy, here's my aeration 
     method.  I have a small (8-10") length of 3/8" SS Tubing.  At one end, 
     I drilled 4 small holes.  
     
     After chilling with an immersion chiller, I siphon the wort out of the 
     pot with a copper scrubbing pad the end of the racking cane to keep 
     the hot break and hops out, and I put the tubing with the holes into 
     the other end of the hose.  Put the holes closest to the siphon hose 
     end.
     
     As the wort flows past the holes, air gets sucked in, providing a 
     constant stream of little air bubbles to aerate the wort as it passes 
     on by.
     
     Result - fully aerated wort
     ------------------------------------------------
     
     True Pint Measures
     
     I like the idea of taking measuring cups (covertly) to pubs and 
     measuring the quantity of draft served.  The method of publicizing the 
     results would have to vary from place to place:  In Calgary, our CAMRA 
     group published a "Good Pub Guide" for the city.  Such a guide could 
     easily incorporate a table of "advertised" vs "poured" quantities of 
     beer.
     
     It is true that CAMRA in the UK has been fighting lately to have 
     standardized pints served in pubs.  But over there, I think the size 
     of the glasses is regulated, and now the point of contention is the 
     foam content.  
     
     A joke I once heard tells of a Scotsman who asked for a pint in the 
     local pub, and after receiving his beer, asked the barmaid "If ye were 
     ta scrape off that foam, do ya think you could put a nip of scotch in 
     there?"  The barmaid responded that yes, she probably could, and the 
     Scotsman pushed the glass back to her and said "Good!  Then fill it 
     with Beer!"


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Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:52:46 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Deoxygenation

Dirk Server suggests that a "pointy head" try deoxygenating with CO2 and
take DO measurements. I did this with nitrogen when doing experiments on
aeration (have to start with deoxygentated water if you're going to
check how fast it takes up oxygen). Yes, of course it works, but, with
nitrogen, at least, it took multiple pressurization, shaking and
depressurization cycles to get down to "deoxygenated" levels. Sparging
with nitrogen in a carboy while swirling also works and should work with
CO2 as well. My notes indicate that it took about 5 minutes of sparging
with N2 to get the O2 down to 7-8% saturation.

My point is that these gas transfers take a little time to approach
completion. As I've posted here before many times the rate of flow (out
of water and into the sparging gas in this case) depends on the partial
pressure difference between the liquid and the gas and the surface area
of the bubbles. At first O2 flows from the water to the sparge gas much
faster than it does when the O2 is largely removed from the water. The
partial pressure of O2 in the water approaches 0 assymptotically.

Another issue with CO2 is that while oxygen is leaving the water, CO2 is
entering it, i.e. some carbonic acid is being formed which lowers the pH
etc. This may or may not be a problem depending on the application (the
CO2 could be removed by sparging with nitrogen). Nitrogen is less
soluble than CO2 and is pretty much inert so I prefer it for deaeration
though I'm only concerned with small quantities for experiments.
Obviously, any other inert gas (argon) would serve as well.

Finally, its not a point; more like a ridge really .



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Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:49:03 -0500
From: John Murphy <jbm at ll.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: History of the Stout..

Badger writes:
>Does anyone know if the Stout, as an entity would have
>appeared before the End of the 17th century?  ie:  when
>did a stout start being called a stout,...
>
>...any good book suggestions?


Classic Stout and Porter by Roger Protz
Trafalgar Square; ISBN: 1853752207


John Murphy
jbm at ll.mit.edu




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Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:20:30 -0500
From: "Chuck Bernard" <bernardch at mindspring.com>
Subject: Malts and conversion times

While browsing some of the maltsters web sites (Schreier, DWC & Weissheimer)
I found "generic" malt specs that listed "conversion times" for various
malts.  Many of these times were in the 15 - 25 minute range, with a few
malts listed as having a 5 minute conversion time.  The web sites for
reference are:

Schreier:  http://schreiermalt.com/maltanal_s.html
DWC:  http://schreiermalt.com/maltanal_d.html
Weissheimer:  http://www.weissheimer.de/enspez.htm   (note .htm, not .html)

Granted these specs are "generic" but does this mean that the mash is fully
converted within the time ranges listed.  Anyone have a clue?

Given that many of us mash for 60, 70 or even 90 minutes, what is the
benefit of mashing for these durations.  Why shouldn't I just check for
conversion using an iodine test somewhere within the "conversion window" and
mash out/begin sparging if the test(s) shows negative for starch.  If I get
full conversion after 25 minutes (like the specs state) what is happening
during those last 35 minutes of the mash?  What does it do to my beer?  Is
my mash ruined (IMMR)?

Chuck
BernardCh at mindspring.com
Music City Brewers, Nashville TN - Music CityUSA





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