---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Irish Moss (Dwayne Robert McKeel)
  RE:Temp Controllers ("Marc Battreall")
  RE: Grain Mill post/Newbie Questions ("Marc Battreall")
  "Baby Leave" (Some Guy)
  Rusty Gauges (Hutch)
  language, grainlist (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  more crystal/'spearments/others ("Steve Alexander")
  Slaked Lime (AJ)
  Sanitizing with Alcohols (James Tomlinson)
  Bleach, Iodine, or other? ("Jim Hinze")
  Fridge operating cost (fridge)
  re: using spoiled beer (Lou Heavner)
  Recipie percentages and specialty malts (David Rinker)
  Coffee and Oatmeal in a stout... (Badger Roullett)
  History of the Stout.. (Badger Roullett)
  Red Ale; lactic beer; namelessness (Samuel Mize)
  More fridge, sanitation ("Graham, Bill")
  Re: New AHA Nameless...yadda yadda (Alan Edwards)
  What to do; where to go in Portland, Ore (John Biggins)
  How much crystal in your PA ? ("Steve Alexander")
  Re:Re: "Jethro Gump Report" (The Holders)
  a simple way to deoxygenate water (Dirk Server)
  How to dilute homebrew.... ("Gregg Soh")
  Starters (AJ)
  RE: Hop Combinations ("Marc Battreall")
  Hop "burr" stage (John Murphy)
  ponkins (dbgrowler)
  Gump; true measure; small servings (Samuel Mize)


Have you entered a MCAB qualifier yet?


NOTE NEW HOMEBREW ADDRESS:  hbd.org 

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.) 

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. 
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
**ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!! 
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
  the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!

For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to brewery at hbd.org

Homebrew Digest Information on the Web: http://hbd.org

Requests for back issues will be ignored. Back issues are available via:

  Anonymous ftp from...
	ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests
	ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

  AFS users can find it under...
        /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 17:59:24 -0400
From: Dwayne Robert McKeel <drmckeel at twave.net>
Subject: Irish Moss

Greetings fellow beer nuts,
	In HBD2765 Steve Alexander comments on the effectiveness of irish moss
(IM). I contend that the proper way to gauge the effectiveness of IM is
by the amount of hot break left in your kettle. Not that I disagree with
Steve's decision to stop using IM, it is a personal decision based on
his on brewing techniques, results and desires. No one is qualified to
pass judgement on that but Steve. However, for myself, I find that using
IM helps to leave enough proteinaceous matter in the kettle to make the
effort and cost worth while. Obviously, how effective the IM is will
depend on several factors including; grist bill, hop charge, boil
lenght, vigor of boil, mashing technique, whirl pooling, method and rate
of cooling and other factors. As for clarity of the finished product, I
find that removing the fermenting wort off from the cold break is just
as important as the amount of hot break left in the kettle. Without
knowing Steve personally, from his results I would expect that he is
quite diligent about this. I also find that this method produces a
cleaner tasting beer. I suspect it also may help remove potential
nutrient for spoiling organisms. Any comments on this last point? It is
beyond the scope of my education and experiences. Overall I would say
that any method that safely and easily removes these high molecular
weight proteins from the wort/beer is worth the effort.
	On another note, does anyone have any experience on minimizing mold
contaminations? I too have a basement brewery and am concerned with mold
and other non-yeast fungi. We talk so much about bacteria that little
discussion is made of these other wort spoilers. I am quite familiar
with bacteria and how to deal with them, but I am unsure of fungi, other
than the usual sanitation techniques.

	Wassail
	Dwayne (I never met a beer I didn't want to brew) McKeel
	Musty Olde Cellar Homebrewery

PS: please note I said "brew", not drink. While I may find it
challenging to brew some beers, I don't necessarily like drinking them!


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:30:05 -0400
From: "Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: RE:Temp Controllers

Victor asks about after market temperature controllers in HDB2765:

Victor,

I also wanted to have an extra refrigerator for lagering and fermenting
mostly because I live in South Florida where the temps are, well, you know.
I picked up an old (quote old) refrig free from a friend. It has the old
style freezer compartment up top with the drip tray below it and the main
compartment all encompassed behind one door. I can fit 2 carboys or 4 Corny
kegs or a combination. Anyway, after trying to use the factory thermostat to
control the temp using Setting 1-2-3-4-5 and so forth I finally decided to
get an after market thermostat. I waffled back and forth one which one to
get, inquired to this forum like you are doing and I finally decided on one
and haven't regretted it for a second. I splurged for what I consider to be
a top of the line model with +/- 2 degree compensation (4 degree total
differential). I don't think that my compressor runs much more now than it
did before provided that I don't constantly open the door, which was hard to
do at first (remember the old adage, does the light turn off when you close
the door?). But then again because this refrig was free, I probably don't
share the same concern for it as I would for a unit that I paid for. The
thermostat I bought is called a Ferm Temp and I got it from Brewer's
Resource.(not affiliated). It's a bit pricey at $110 but as far as I am
concerned it was worth it (so far). I have had it about 18 months and not a
complaint. It is a solid state unit and has a 6 foot cord which looks to be
the same as a modular phone cord where it plugs into the unit and a small
temp probe on the other end about the size of the end of your pinky finger.
It fits through the door seal just about anywhere without compromising the
seal that much at all. No drilling or special adapters are needed and I had
mine up and running in about 10 minutes. In fact, I am lagering a Bohemian
Pilsner in there as of this writing that is stabilized at 52 degrees
according to the cheap $2 Fermometer glued on the side of the carboy which
coincides with exactly what the Ferm Temp says it is. Oh well, I am happy
anyway. If you have one of their catalogs you can read up about it on page
27 if you haven't done so already, if not I am sure its on their web page.
There are alot of other units out there for ALOT less money that would do
the job fine I am sure,
but I thought you might enjoy the testimony.

Good Luck and happy ferments to you!

Marc
=======================
Captain Marc Battreall
Backcountry Brewhouse
Islamorada, Florida
batman at terranova.net
captainbrew at hotmail.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 22:52:47 -0400
From: "Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: RE: Grain Mill post/Newbie Questions

Hello to all, and Mark and Ian,

Sorry I didn't attach this quick post to my last one but it slipped my mind.
I just wanted to comment on the post that Mark Fletcher made in HBD2765
about the grain mill he fashioned out of a pizza dough roller. (I believe he
said it was his first post).

I gotta tell ya, and I think most of you will agree. Is this guy a story
writer or what?? If not maybe an English professor?  Well, if he's not
either one of those I would encourage him to become a beer journalist or
something along those lines!!  That was one of the most well written posts I
have seen in a while. I hope that it was a true story, but if not, what the
heck, I enjoyed it anyway!! This guy can really spin a yarn and I look
forward to seeing his next one. Now that's what I call a "digest"!!!

PS. Mark, stand by for Sam's Forthcoming Welcome Message!!


Ian asks about a homebrewing equipment kit in the same digest;

Ian, if that was not a misprint and you are going to buy all that stuff for
$10-$15, then I say go for it. Even if the homebrewing hobby doesn't hook
you, you're only out a few dollars. If it does bite you, (and I'm betting it
does!) then no matter how far you advance or how complex your equipment
array becomes, you will most likely always have that original equipment and
find a use for it, brewing or otherwise. I still have most of the stuff I
got with my first "kit" from years ago and use it everytime I brew. My first
"primary fermentor" is scratched beyond safe use, but it stills does a fine
job of transporting 4 dozen shrimp from the bait store to the live well in
my boat!! Know what I mean Vern??

Good Luck and welcome to the club!

PS. Ian, you too can standby for Sam's Forthcoming Welcome Message!!

Cheers

Marc
=======================
Captain Marc Battreall
Backcountry Brewhouse
Islamorada, Florida
batman at terranova.net
captainbrew at hotmail.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:31:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: "Baby Leave"

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Due to the arrival of my fourth (announcement *should* be in this Digest -
long queue!), I am taking two weeks as vacation (Starting Monday, 7/13)
from work and the Digest in order to help this little stranger and my
family acclimate to each other - as well as catch up on a couple of years'
worth of undone projects (maybe even brew up some beer...). In the
meantime, please do not start a "Did you see that SPAM? Rotten
janitors..." thread should something unpalatable slip by. If anyone does
start such a thread, I ask that the reasonable subscribers please cajole
them in private e-mail. 

Thanks! (And don't be too shocked should I still manage to peek in from 
time to time: I have the most understanding wife in the entire cosmos. 
Believe me. It's true.)

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:37:06 -0400
From: Hutch <kahlua at intrepid.net>
Subject: Rusty Gauges

A few HBD back someone asked about putting a CO2 bottle and regulator in the
fridge and asked if this would hurt anything?  

One thing that I learned that you might want to watch for is condensation
forming on the regulator.  You can end up with condensation in the gauge, or
If your regulator has metal gauges or exposed metal parts these can
rust/corrode.   This may or may not affect the operation/accuracy depending on
how bad it gets.



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:30:04 +0200
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: language, grainlist

Brewers,

I'm looking for the right translation of beer in Portuguese, Finish,
Swedish and Danish.

Can anybody extend the following list ?
Barley, wheat, oats, rye, maize, sorghum, rice, millet, buckwheat,
spelt, quinoa, wild rice, 
Is there a website for this kind of information?
TIA, Greetings from Holland, Hans Aikema

Greetings from Holland, Hans Aikema


Greetings from Holland, Hans Aikema




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 07:21:44 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: more crystal/'spearments/others

John Wilkinson notes that some (certainly I) missed Mort' O'Sullivan's great
post. re crystal. Thanks John - and esp Mort -  but I feel that Morts post
raises as many questions as it answers.

In capsule form it says:
   malt is 25% amylose and 75% amylopectin (this checks out)
   stewing of crystal malt favors amylopectin-lysis [- hmm why ? all enzymes
are just
         as short of water. - Isn't BA smaller to start with ?]]
   only a small % of the sugars undergo Maillard reactions and become
        unfermentable by this mechanism
   during kilning, the relatively unchanged amylose molecule recrystallize [or
perhaps
        crystallize is better -  since it's the first fime - No Mort?] and by
an inexplicable
        mechanism become unfermentable - that is - insucceptable to amylase
enzymes.
  regardless of malt type - high temp kilnoing => lower fermentability.

First - I'm not refuting Mort's asserts - it makes good sense - but just what
the *&*frab^%# is going on.  Why ? do 'crystallized' amylopecins becone
unfermentable.  Won't they gelatinize/solubilize in the mash ??!!!?? And why is
amylopectin-lysis preferrred in the stewing.  Is this true in a thick mash too
? Inquiring minds want to know. OK the pectins are all frobby shaped, but come
on - the w:g ratio is nearly:1:1 and at that ratio, a mash is fairly viable.
No ?
- --
Experiments -
- --
   Some few may remember that I malted my own (6-row, cattle feed, 10kg) barley
a few months ago, created some crystal (in a crockpot)  with ~10% of it, and
using flaked maize and NewUlm yeast made a CAP with it.

How is it ?  Poor to mediocre.  The flavor profile is very nice - except that
there is a background harshness that borders on bitterness and a sort of
'horsey-ness' to the flavor profile.  The color is great, the clarity is very
good, the head is magnificent, the general flavor profile is great except for
the stern phenolic background flavor that intrudes.  Someone a few weeks ago
suggested that it's "too bad" that we can't get decent malting barley seed.  I
must agree - but still I think that this s a worthy experiment.  I've learned a
great deal about the process of malting.  The mash converted in ~ 15 minutes!!
yeah - some enzymes.   And during the drying, kilning and crystal making
processes I was brought much closer to the maltsters art.  Is it waste of time
? Difficult ?  No way - it is the very stuff of learning/discovery/life. .  I
enjoyed each new discovery (and mistake).   I'd strongly advise anyone with
curiosity, a couple 5G pails, $6/50lb feed barley,  and a drying screen to
replicate the experiment.   The time and effort required, tho' spead over
several weeks, were less than a typical brewdays work. Like HBD - wouldn't have
missed it for the world.
BTW1 - it make s nice 'cream-ale' when mixed with a mild - the phenolics fade
fast with dilution
BTW2 - PVPP at an early stage may reduce this malts phenolic problems -I'll try
is next time.
BTW3 - fresh crystal is an amazing product.  There is no doubt that I will be
making some beers with (2-row) homemade crystal in the neer future.  The flavor
of my homemade crystal is a real 'Wow' factror.
- --
Gardening on the HBD - - what !!!

OK - well I had some leftover barley(6-row), wheat & oats this spring, so I
decided to plant a sq.ft. of each in my garden.  The barley is a little better
than knee high, the oats - almost waist high, and the wheat in between.  The
barley does prominently display it's 6-row namesake.  The whisker's from the
tips of the barley kernels are almost 6 inches (150mm) long and form a well
aligned stalk end.  The wheat looks remarkably similar - except that the plants
are a notch taller and the whiskers are very short.  The oats are quite
different - the plant is much taller, the kernels aren't all bunched in a
cluster, but instead hang down from wire-thin side-stalks spaced 1-2 cm apart
around the plant head.  The oat kernels hanging there are somewhat reminiscent
of lily-of-the-valley, only 20 inches(.6M) taller and still green - turning
white at the tip..  The barley and wheat are already starting to turn dry and
straw-like.   Interesting fact - the barley & wheat seem to form fairly stiff
kernel structures inside their husks (and outer covering shell for wheat)
early.  The oats, even at this late stage, have soft kernels that exude a milky
starchy tasting liquid when crushed.

OK - who wants to tackle barley biochemistry in the same way we've approached
yeast biochemistry ?  Lemme throw this out for a start.  I did a calculation
based on the solar constant, the yield of corn(maize) per acre in the US, and
the typical oil, carbo, protein content of corn.  It turns out that 0.53% of
all the sunlight energy that falls on (the upper atmosphere above) a cornfield
it turned into utilizeable energy in the corn kernel.  Since only 80% or so of
the energy reaches the earths surface, and photosynthesis (T3) is only about
35% efficient in theory, and also corn-leaves don't have 100% coverage of the
field throughout the growing season.  It would appear that perhaps 5-10% of the
accessible energy is turned into seed,   How does barley compare ?  Dunno - but
I'd like to find out.  Anyone have yield numbers for barley ?
- --
Welcome back to David Burley - who's three week hiatus was far too long, and
congrat's on the son's graduation.
- --
"Thomas Kramer"'s  BREW DAY FROM HELL
>[...].  After a few more seconds
>I looked down at my feet and my toes were a bloody mess. I told my wife to
>drop me off at the emergency room, and go borrow a wet vac, at start
>cleaning up the mess.  An hour latter I had one toe with stitched up and
>tree other with bandages.

Was that your typing toe ?  Sorry. Carboys are inherently dangerous.  Get a
handle ASAP.  Use a box to hold the carboy - cardboard, plasic anything (wet
ones are slippery) and repeat the mantra - 'I will use two hands to move a
non-empty-carboy.  Also - thank probabilty you didn't have a 30cm*1cm hunk of
glass severe an artery.  Shoes (not sandals) and jeans are a plus too.
- --
My friend Jeff Renner writes ...
>You can answer this yourself by doing a thought experiment (that's how
>Einstein figured out relativity; we're not as smart as Einstein, but this
>isn't theoretical physics, either).

Hmmm - the other side of the coin is that we ARE as smart as Einstein if only
he had to deal with beer and brewing .  ;^)

Steve Alexander




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:30:25 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Slaked Lime

James Tomlinson  asked about sources of slaked lime. While the hardware
store stuff will probably do just fine I feel a little more comfortable
using "pickling lime" from the canning department of the super market.



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:42:46 -0400
From: James Tomlinson <red_beards at compuserve.com>
Subject: Sanitizing with Alcohols

JGORMAN at steelcase.com asked about using Isopropyl alcohol for sanitizing
equipment.

Fix's latest book has contact times for various sanitizers including
Isopropyl Alcohol. The problem with the alcohols is their contact time
is much longer than bleach or Iodophors. His recomendation was using it
to keep stuff sanitary and using ethyl alcohol in a spray bottle for
spot sanitiation.

I've used alcohol to clean the the ourside of carboys which were
fermented in my basement (A Truely horrible place for unprotected beer,
but a wonderful place to ferment, presently a nice even 68 F).

- --
James Tomlinson

Give a man a beer, and he wastes an hour.
But teach a man how to brew, and he wastes a lifetime!
Muddy Waters Brewery






Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:05:44 -0400
From: "Jim Hinze" <jhinze at vbs-net.com>
Subject: Bleach, Iodine, or other?

Hi Everyone. I've been lurking for a while and this is my first post, please
be gentle <G>.

I've been brewing on and off for about 3 years and have always used bleach
for sanitation and never really had a problem or infection (knock on wood),
but a recent trip to my homebrew supply store and some recent articles have
got me wondering...

Is bleach really the best alternative, should I be using iodine or some
other substance? Does it make a big difference?

I tried to do a search back to 1997 and didn't find much...If this has been
discussed already, accept my apologizes.

Thanks in advance...
Jim Hinze



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:28:16 -0400
From: fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu
Subject: Fridge operating cost

Greetings folks,

 In HBD 2766, "Alldey" Paul gives some further data about 
his fridge that seems to run too much, and asks for help to 
determine the monthly operating cost.

 The 2-3 minutes on and 2-3 minutes off he reports is 
close to a 50% duty cycle, which is about normal for a 
newer, fully loaded fridge.

 This info differs from the first post where the fridge ran 
for 20 minutes plus and the temperature didn't drop under 
similar operating conditions. What changed?

 To calculate a rough estimate of the operating cost we 
will 
need the amp draw of the complete fridge, the 
approximate run time per month, and the local electrical 
rate per KWH.

 An example would be a fridge that draws 3.5 amps, runs 
a 50% duty cycle, and an electrical rate of .09/KWH.

 First, let's calculate the load in KW:
	 3.5 amps x 120 volts=420 watts = .42 KW

 Then calculate the run time:
	 720 hours x .50 = 360 hours

 Then calculate the total KWH:
	 360 hours x .42 = 151.2 KWH

 Last, multiply by the rate:
	 151.2 x .09 = $13.61

 A note about the veg oil... If your temperature controller 
has an adjustable differential, you can set it for 5 degrees 
or so, and do away with the oil. The oil or water is just a 
messier means to accomplish the same thing.   
Hope this helps!

Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridge at Imbecile.kzoo.edu


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:37:53 -0500
From: lheavner at tcmail.frco.com (Lou Heavner)
Subject: re: using spoiled beer

     Paul in Cheyenne asks what to do with 4.5 gal of infected beer.  You 
     might try boiling some shrimp in it and see if it is any good?  I'd 
     hate to ruin the shrimp, too, though.  You could boil up some brats or 
     hot dogs, maybe a more traditional solution.  How about beer batter 
     onion rings?  You ought to ask Scott Murman, the unofficial HBD beer 
     chef for ideas.  Of course they say with wine, if you wouldn't drink 
     it as is, you shouldn't cook with it either.  Good luck!
     
     Cheers!
     
     Lou Heavner - Austin, TX  100 DegF in the shade...


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:04:37 -0500
From: David Rinker <drinker at mci2000.com>
Subject: Recipie percentages and specialty malts

All the talk about crystal malts and exactly "what" they contribute to a
brew, combined with the discussion on exactly how to best adapt any
particular recipe for a given brewing system, leads me to ask  the
following question:

How does one handle the scaling up or down of  specialty malts?

First of all, I like many others here adapt specific recipes to my own
needs by simply adjusting the grain bill up or down by weight.  I find
that easier than going by extract amounts (as per Daniels), especially
since most all malts fall into the 33-36 pts/lb/gal range anyway, and
both methods will then lead to very similar results.  (Obviously,
additions like syrups, sugar or honey don't get scaled in the same
manner under either of these methods).  However, both approaches to
grain-scaling still seem to present a problem with respect to those
specialty malts whose primary contributions to a mash are not ones
principally of extract, but rather of color and flavor.

Now, for most recipes shuffling within the 75%-85% m.e. range is really
not a problem since the total amount of specialty grains varies little,
but when I wanted to start experimenting with a technique like "no
sparge" mashing (where efficiency can drop to around 50%) I  ran into a
problem.  Specifically, the specialty malts (roasted and caramelized
malts) appear to contribute an amount of flavor and color
*disproportionate* to their extract contribution--i.e. you can't scale
them in a linear fashion.  For example the first no sparge brew I
attempted was scaled up from a mild recipe which used 4oz of Chocolate
malt at "normal" (73%) efficiency.  However when I converted it to a no
sparge recipe at  60% (should have been lower) the amount of chocolate
malt was pushing half-a-pound.  I didn't think twice about this at the
time I was brewing, but the beer came out with what I thought to be too
much chocolate character and was much too dark.  Since this problem
would also seem to become a factor when increasing the volume of a given
recipe, others out there must have developed some tricks to deal with
it.

To  help shed some light, I checked some of the AHA Style books to see
by what factors each author multiplied his 5gal batches to get them up
to 1 bbl batches.  Darryl Richman seems to observe a near linear
relationship with all malts, multiplying them by a factor of 6.2.  Terry
Foster OTOH routinely multiplies his pale malts by 5.4 and his specialty
malts by 6.4 in both of his books. Noonan multiplies his pale malt
quantities by 6.2 and his specialty malt quantities by 6.4.  Miller
generally says in the 6-6.4 range for all malts and Rajotte uses  5.5
for his base malts and 6.4 for his specialty malts.

Rather than clarifying things for me, this information makes it seem
like I should add a disproportionately *greater* amount of specialty
malts as either my efficiency drops or as my volume increases...

Can anyone help me out here?  How much does extract efficiency reflect
"flavor/color-extraction" efficiency?  What rules of thumb do you use
when doubling a recipe?

Thanks

David Rinker



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:59:16 -0700
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: Coffee and Oatmeal in a stout...

i am working on formulating a recipie for a Coffee and Oatmeal stout..

Coffee for taste, and Oatmeal for body, and smoothness..

any suggestions for 

 -> Hops?  bittering and aroma?
 -> Grains? (i am thinking Choc malt, and Black Patent 1/2 lb ea per 5
gallon) and maybe some Dark Crystal..
 ->How, When, and What Type of coffee to add..  Beans, Ground, espresso
grind, espresso?  when boil, fermentor, etc..
 ->Oatmeal, how do i work with this? never done it.
 -> Other Adjucts that have worked for people..  (brown sugar?  Spices? -
maybe some cinnamon to go with the breakfast theme? ;)

would be be really appreciated.

I have been brewing for 3 years, been on and off the HBD, and use Extract
with Speciality grains mostly.  I work in 10 gallon batches, keg to Cornies
with Force carbonation.


*********************************************
Brander Roullett aka Badger

Brewing Page: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html
Badgers Brewing Bookstore: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/brewbook.html

In the SCA: 
Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven, Innkeeper of the Cat and Cup Inn



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 11:01:52 -0700
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: History of the Stout..

Does anyone know if the Stout, as an entity would have appeared before the
End of the 17th century?  ie:  when did a stout start being called a stout,
and when did roasting malt for darker colors and tastes appear in history?
Sort of an odd question  to some of you mainstream Homebrewers, but i am
Medievial recreationist, and a homebrewer..  doing some research into the
history of the stout.  

any good book suggestions?

*********************************************
Brander Roullett aka Badger

Brewing Page: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html
Badgers Brewing Bookstore: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/brewbook.html

In the SCA: 
Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven, Innkeeper of the Cat and Cup Inn



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 14:27:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at mail.imagin.net>
Subject: Red Ale; lactic beer; namelessness

John "The Brews Traveler" Adams writes, in a beer review:
> A very nice and pleasant Red (we all know there is no such style) Ale.

Not to bang on John, this is a general comment.

I've never understood the strong objection some people have to the term
"Red Ale."  I brewed one last Halloween.  I mean, it was red, and it was an
ale.  I certainly wouldn't make it a competition category, since it's just
a color variation on Pale Ale.  The flavor is unaffected.  But isn't color
something we're supposed to observe and appreciate?  Wouldn't you notice a
pale amber stout?

If we want to insist that breweries use style designations correctly -- and
I do -- then we must let them use other terms for brand differentation and
marketing, especially for products that are somewhat out of style.  "Red
Ale" seems like "Milk Stout" or "Fizzy Bland Lager" (OK, they don't use
that last one, but some of them should).

 - - - - - - - - - -
> From: AllDey at aol.com
> Subject: More fridge, sanitation

> As I sit here, the fridge is running about 2-3 minutes
> off and 2-3 minutes on.
> ...I also fairly recently switched to veg. oil in the cup
> in which the ext. temp controller probe resides. Seems like a red herring, but
> Sam Mize in personal communication suggests this may have an influence.

I was trying -- poorly, I guess -- to ask if your problem was extra-long
cycle times.  At 2-3 minutes I'd say my guess was totally off base.

I'd stick with oil or water -- don't put herring into the glass.  And don't
call it "red" herring, it's just herring with a little red color in it.

> p.s. what to do with 4.5 gal. of lactic infected cal. common? I'm not about to
> make 100 g of Guiness Stout or traditional porter to mix.  Ain't never dumped,
> won't start now. Suggestions? 

You could pasteurize it (to stabilize the souring) and cook with it.  You
might develop some recipes that are so good you'll lactic-infect another
batch.  (Well, it COULD happen!)

It might also be interesting to make malt vinegar with some of it.  How-to
has been posted, I don't recall if it was HBD or rec.crafts.brewing.  (Even
if it's really bad, at least you won't be dumping BEER -- just vinegar. :-)

 - - - - - - - - - -
Several people assured Pat that Paul Gatza, shockingly, does have a name.

>Who the hell is Paul Gatza? How is it that the
>AHA always manages to find these faceless, nameless people

(Kind of an oxymoronic question, wasn't it, Pat?  :-)

I'd suggest generally that folks who dislike the AHA aim their negative
comments carefully at the AHA, and not at an individual who hasn't had time
to prove himself to be a villain, a hero or a random guy like us.

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam: see http://www.cauce.org/ \\\ Smert Spamonam


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:33:17 -0600
From: "Graham, Bill" <bgraham at geographix.com>
Subject: More fridge, sanitation

>From: AllDey at aol.com

>I asked about my fridge running constantly

>Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy Responded
>> Keep in mind when shopping for a used fridge that one more than
>>10 years old will probably cost enough more in energy cost to pay
>>monthly payments on a new fridge.

	FWIW, I picked up an ancient fridge about this time last year,
and so far have used it to store (a keg and cases of) beer, and other
"normal" food items. Just plain ol' normal refrigerator use. I have
checked my past electricity bills, and, on average, I'm paying a
whopping $1.50 extra per month. I don't know how low new payments would
be on a new fridge, but I can't imagine them being much less than $1.50.
Of course, this thing is sitting in the garage where the highest temp it
sees is 75. IOW, YMMV.
	OTOH, it might be a good way to convince the SO to get you some
new equipment ;)

Bill 
	Within smelling distance of the largest brewery in the world -
YUM!


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:10:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com>
Subject: Re: New AHA Nameless...yadda yadda


I don't see what the uproar is about.  If you don't like what they
are doing, then don't support them!

I stopped buying their rag...I mean "paying my dues to the non-profit
organization" when the crap-to-info ratio got too high (history of the
bottle opener?!?).  In my opinion, every issue of Brewing Techniques is
better than the best Zymurgy (no affiliation).

Charlies books?  Yeah, right.  (I bought TCJOHB because it came with my
first kit.  I read it once--exactly once.)

Now, I don't care.  I don't need them.  Let them atrophy.

 -Alan in Fremont, CA


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:00:51 -0400
From: John Biggins <jbbiggin at mail.med.cornell.edu>
Subject: What to do; where to go in Portland, Ore

Okay --  I'm heading for Portland, Ore next week for the first time.
Aside from the Oregon Brewer's Assoc, is there a good web-site to index
all the breweries & brewpubs?

Thanx in advance

 -John Biggins
Cornell University Grad School of Medical Sciences
Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:06:12 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: How much crystal in your PA ?

Charles Rich asks about %age of malts and adjuncts in brewing.  This reminds me
of an interesting issue.  M&BS states that 'crystal and colored malts' comprise
about 1% of great brittain's malt production !!!  Seems like too little crystal
in the grist to me. Why ?

Sam Mize responds to Kyle ...
>> From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net>
>> Subject: Yeast Starter
>> We are admonished to make large starters, up to 1 gallon at times, then
>> pitch this into the wort.  Maybe your starter's are different, but my
>> starters taste like [bleep]
>I generally let a starter settle and pour off the liquid.  This may cause
>me to pitch at less-than-optimum glyco-whatsit levels but it seems to be a
>good compromise: lots of yeast, very little yucky starter fluid.

This is a general conundrum.  You want fat, recently aerated yeast in your
starter, but you don't want to add a lot of simple extract starter - which may
be a oxidized if you aerate the starter during growth.  If you wait for the
yeast to settle out - then your yeast may be too 'skinny'.  Centrifugation,
filtration and cold shock might be useful separation techniques - but it sounds
like a lot of effort.  Anyone have a better starter method ?

Steve Alexander





Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:21:52 -0700
From: The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com>
Subject: Re:Re: "Jethro Gump Report"

Who or what is  Jack Schmidling and why does someone name  Jack
Schmidling
post it?

You Get 'em Jethro!

Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA
"too hot for plaid right now thanks"


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:05:16 +0000
From: Dirk Server <mminsw at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: a simple way to deoxygenate water

George De Piro mentions 2 ways to deoxgenate water. Here's another
way...

Put water in soda keg. Pressurise with CO2 from your gas bottle at a
good pressure and shake to dissolve. Once saturated, release all
pressure. Hey presto! Once the CO2 bubbles out you have water with much
less oxygen than you started with. This may need repeating to reduce
oxygen to acceptable levels. Why doesn't one of the pointy heads try it
out with their dissolved oxygen meter and report back with results?

Dirk.

PS. For you doubters - it DOES work. It relies on the dissolved oxygen
from the water going into the CO2 bubbles due to a lack of oxygen in the
CO2 bubble. Simple gas stripping. It is not used commercially solely due
to the comparative high cost of CO2. It would also work with beer if it
didn't foam everywhere!








Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 05:07:35 PDT
From: "Gregg Soh" <greggos at hotmail.com>
Subject: How to dilute homebrew....

Many thanks to Calvin Perilloux, Sam Mize, Greg Lorton, Gary, George 
Litchfield, Robert Buchanan, Bayard Wenzel and Al Korzonas for the 
advice regarding diluting my "Eis Ale". For those who may have at one 
time experienced this problem or who may have yet to experience it, the 
advice was (it was unanimous) to boil some water and let it cool with as 
little headspace as possible, someone suggested using a CF chiller also. 
No one has had any problems with this arrangement except Robert who had 
detected a cardboard taste after 3 weeks at 45F. Well, as for me, so far 
so good, it has worked acceptably for now. Thanks.

Gregg Soh

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:43:54 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Starters

Allen Senear (welcome!) commented that a starter culture he tasted
wasn't too wretched. In order to insure that future starters do gag you,
oxygentate the starter as frequently as practical after "pitching" the
yeast. This keeps the yeast in growth phase, maximizes their
multiplications and insures that they have strong cell membranes so that
they will be able to reproduce better daughters in the wort when they,
in turn, are pitched. I believe it to be the metabolites of yeast growth
phase, as opposed to fermentation phase, that makes a well made starter
taste so bad thus, IMO, if it don't taste bad, it ain't right.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Michael Rose commented on a multiplicity of posts re CO2 leaving beer.
I've missed those but the "answer" may be the very simple fact that gas
leaves a solution until the partial pressure of the gas in the solution
is the same as that of the gas (air) over it. The partial pressure of
CO2 in the air is .03 - .05% (and yet this has a profound effect upon
ground water chemistry, forces the pH of distilled water to the mid 5's
etc.) which means that CO2 will escape soda, or beer, or well water or
whatever until the partial pressure in the liquid is the same. In water
this amounts to a CO2 content of 0.7 mg/L - not much at all. Thus nearly
all the gas forced into beer will eventually escape though it may take
some time.



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:54:08 -0400
From: "Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: RE: Hop Combinations

Peter wants to know about hop combinations with his home grown hops. He
writes:

My hop garden this year is producing the following:  Nugget, Bullion,
Liberty, Fuggles and Saaz.  Anyone and everyone, please share with me any
combinations of these five strains that might work well together.  If you
know of some combination, please share the hop schedule with me.

Peter,
In my opinion (please remember this is MY opinion) none of the hops that you
have go together well, except maybe the Fuggles and Bullion in an Irish
Stout. Please keep in mind that I brew mostly according to beer style
guidelines, but more so closer to traditional regional style guidelines.
Examples being Saaz hops in a Czech Pilsner, East Kent Goldings in a English
Ale, etc. That doesn't mean that you have to, but that's the way that I do
it because I try to emulate beers as close as I can and I am a hopeless
traditionalist. I personally feel that your hops are all from a wide variety
of what would be considered traditional for any one particular style of
beer. Don't take this wrong. The good news is that because of your available
variety, you have hops for quite a wide array of styles. Here are some ideas
for you:
Use the Nugget in American Pale Ales or Brown Ales for bittering or flavor.
Use the Bullion in an Irish Stout for bittering and the Fuggles for
flavoring and finishing. They are reportedly what Guinness uses (the Bullion
anyway, can't confirm the Fuggles).
Use the Liberty in just about any Lager, American, German etc. The were bred
as a fine substitute for Hallertau Mittlefruh and are great for flavoring.
Use the Fuggles in just about English style for bittering, flavor or aroma
(dry hopping).
Use the Saaz in any Pilsner whether its American, Czech, or German.
Or heck, use ANY of them in ANY BEER for ANYTHING!
The bottom line is that you are the Brewer and you can be as creative as you
want. The are no hard fast rules as far as hop usage is concerned. I have
personally bittered, flavored, and dry hopped with just about any hop you
can name and I was pleased with the results most of the time. And if I
wasn't, I made note of it and didn't do it anymore. I go on binges like
overhopping Pale Ales, dry hopping with traditional bittering hops, not dry
hopping, making single hop variety beers (this was a fun one) and all kinds
of experiments.
My only other advice to you is always use the freshest hops, which you can
obviously do, and take good notes so you can repeat your results should they
be favorable.

Good Luck and Happy Hopping!

Marc
========================
Captain Marc D.Battreall
Islamorada, Florida
batman at terranova.net
captainbrew at hotmail.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:27:04 -0500
From: John Murphy <jbm at ll.mit.edu>
Subject: Hop "burr" stage

I've noticed that the flowers on my Chinook hop plant have been in the
"burr" stage (when they start and have that spiny appearance) for over
a month now. This is the same plant that gave a decent yield last year
and has reached over twenty feet already. I don't recall the flowers
taking this long to develop. My Centennial flowers are growing like
crazy, with lots of ripe flowers and still growing new flowers which
have leapfrogged the Chinooks in terms of development. Even the
Goldings that I planted this year are starting flowers which are
getting bigger than the Chinooks. They're all planted next to each
other and get the same amount of water. The Chinook might get a little
more shade at the end of the day where it's trained horizontally at
the end but I can't imagine this would make a difference. Any other
hop growers seen flowers take this long to develop?

Cheers


John Murphy
jbm at ll.mit.edu




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:25:17 -0400
From: dbgrowler at juno.com
Subject: ponkins

Hey Scott,

I'm still glowing green over here after reading about your overseas
beerhunting expedition. I wrote the post about the pumpkin extract, and
it was indeed about pumpkins, not "pie filling". I use a cooker-type
adjunct mash: skinned, cubed, pumpkin boiled till nearly liquid, added to
the main mash to boost it to saccharification temp. I go easy on the
spices, because it's easy to overwhelm the pumpkin character. I guess I
downplayed the flavor contributions a bit too much, thinking of (and
factoring in) the trouble one must go to to get it. Actually, it's quite
nice, and worth doing once a year (short memory helps, too.) Over the six
batches I've made, I'd say 10 pt./lb./gal. is absolutely the most
optimistic yield prediction. I've used the same grist and mash format,
with anywhere from 2#-5# cubed pumpkin, and the effect differing  amounts
of pumpkin have on the OG ain't enough for a 'type B' brewer like myself
to worry about.

Mike Bardallis
residing in Allen Park, MI, excepting 21-26 July, when I'll be in
PORTLAND! WooHoo!

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:30:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at mail.imagin.net>
Subject: Gump; true measure; small servings

Jack Schmidling asks:

> Who or what is Jethro Gump and why does someone name Rob Moline
> post it?

Jethro Gump was a famous Illinois highwayman who used to rob Moline.

No?

 - - - - - - - - - -
Scott Murman comments:

> One thing I really hope will catch on here in the States, is every
> glass over there has a line to mark the volume you are buying, ...
> Here in America, people are paying
> a premium for "pints" that are actually only 13 oz. (steal a pint
> glass from your local pub and try it for yourself).  I don't know how
> we can get this practice started, but I wouldn't be adverse to even
> seeing a law enacted.

This might be a good project for homebrew clubs -- not stealing glasses,
that is, but taking a measuring vessel into places where the menu/servers
are calling them "pints" and finding out what their pour volume actually
is.  (Discreetly enough to not get bounced or otherwise violently handled.)

You could publish your findings in your newsletter.  Don't recommend
against places or call them names, you don't need a lawsuit.  It seems by
common sense that a statement like "server called the serving size pint,
measured size was 12 oz" should be safe enough, but check with an actual
lawyer in your area first.

My point, as near as I can tell, is that a CAMRA-type grass-roots campaign
is the most likely to succeed, and it seems like a good idea to me.  This
could be sold to the better places as a PR benefit: give such places a
"true measure" seal they can display and a free mention in your newsletter,
as long as they (1) state the measure they sell and (2) sell that measure.

If anyone's interested in doing this, email me and let's see if we can get
something started.

> I would also like to see the smaller 25dl
> (about 8 oz.) size catch on here.  It's nice to have a small beer with
> lunch, or in the afternoon, or whenever really, without getting too
> hammered.  I doubt it would be popular with the macho, American
> power-drinking crowd though.

I agree, it would be nice.  However, it would have a hard time in
neo-prohibitionist America.  We seem to be largely polarized into people
who won't touch Demon Rum, and people who drink to get drunk.
Responsible, social drinking is much less common, so people who drink at
all usually want a big serving.

Best,
Sam Mize
- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam: see http://www.cauce.org/ \\\ Smert Spamonam


Return to table of contents

---