---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  siphoning tricks (Bob Devine)
  Omega Temperature Controllers ("Chuck Bernard")
  Unibroue products (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Refermentation; Queen of Beer (Samuel Mize)
  Re: Wyeast 3068 ("Paul A. Hausman")
  Re: 5 gallons before or after break material settles (Peter.Perez)
  RE:Percentage will be laid to.... ("Timothy Green")
  Lager (Robert J Skala)
  So fill that 'meister! ("Rosenzweig,Steve")
  hemp beer (Jon Macleod)
  Cold break removal (dfikar)
  chlorine attacking stainless(not) (philgro)
  Dunkelweizen ("Eric Schoville")
  IPA revisited ("Eric Schoville")
  Yeast Storage ("J. Kish")
  Counter Pressure Filling ("Sandy Macmillan")
  Country Condensate & "Frog Snot" (Steve)
  How long to aerate with pure O2? ("Robert C. Sprecher, M.D.")
  Yeast growth vs. fermentation (Fred Johnson)
  White Labs Belgian Wit (Doug Moyer)
  re: fridge -- to stuff or not to stuff (NAZELROD)
  Re: First Wort Hopping (Jeff Renner)
  Better temp control in a Gott (Andrew Ager)
  Too high temps for Wheats ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Calculating recipe grist by % (Joe Rolfe)
  re:Colorado Visit (Todd Crane)
  1/2 BBL Efficiecies with big batches ("Philip J Wilcox")
  tubing ("arne seeger")
  5 gallin All Grain -> 10 gallon batch. (Badger Roullett)
  Extract brewing questions (Bill Goodman)
  Neophyte instructions; enzymes; bats n weeds; conspiracy theory (Samuel Mize)
  Moving full carboys / Tubing / Electric stove problem (Bill Goodman)
  recipe formulations (Dave Sapsis)
  High ferm temps/Saison (JGORMAN)


Have you entered a MCAB qualifier yet?


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Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:23:11 -0600
From: Bob Devine <bdevine at 10fold.com>
Subject: siphoning tricks

> I had trouble with the siphon hose (1st attempt) [...]

Al Korzonas suggests:
> Firstly, the reason that the siphon kept stopping is because the CO2
> that would come out of solution would make a big bubble in the hose,
> right?  The solution is to increase the difference in height between
> the source and destination... this will keep the flow fast and when
> the bubble forms (and it will) it will get pushed down into the
> destination container.

Good advice.  If that is not sufficient, there are a few easy
way to eliminate the bubble that forms in a siphon tube.

First, try a quick pinch of the tube at a point above the
bubble.  If the bubble extends to the very top, you can
pinch right on the bubble.  Hold the pinch only a split second
and then release quickly. This serves to temporarily increase
the suction due to the liquid in motion.  You might have to
do the pinch several times if the bubble is large.

Second, if the pinch trick doesn't work, you can try to trap
the bubble by getting some liquid behind it.  Try to move the
tube so that the bubble moves along the tube.  Usually, this
means raising the tube that was below the bubble to force the
bubble to move to that section.  When the bubble has moved
enough to get a several inch section of fluid behind it,
drop the hose and the bubble should be forced along.

I find that I often get a bubble formed when my racking cane
joins the tube.  Often the CO2 comes out of solution at this
point because of turbulence and/or shear of the joint.

Bob Devine


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Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:46:49 -0500
From: "Chuck Bernard" <bernardch at mindspring.com>
Subject: Omega Temperature Controllers

I was just handed two Omega series CN9000A (model CN9111A) temperature
controllers that we used to use on some process chillers that bought the
farm.  Knowing just enough about electricity (don't touch it) and relay
logic control to make it "appear" I know what I'm doing, are these anything
that can be used in developing/controlling the temperature setpoints on a
RIMS system.

We couldn't find the paperwork that came with the controllers, but looking
at the contoller it appears that they have 1 NO and 1 NC contact rated at
5A, 250VAC, and a second set of 1 NO and 1 NC contact rated at 3A, 250VAC.
I'm guessing I can have a high and low set point which would trigger the
appropriate contacts.  I'm guessing that the outputs would have to energize
a realy to control a heating element (yes?/no?)

Has anyone used these (or something strikingly similar) in a RIMs system and
would care to share their design?  I know one of the ETs would build me the
system (observing all safety considerations) for some HB if I gave them a
schematic to work from.

Chuck
Bernardch at mindspring.com
Music City Brewers, Nashville TN - Music CityUSA



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Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:24:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Unibroue products

Shane Cook recently wrote about some Unibroue beers:


>"I recently had the oportunity to sample a great
>variety of craft brews at the Vancouver
>Brewmasters Festival.  Two brews that really
>caught my tounge were Maudite and La Fin du
>monde.  Both are brewed by Unibroue in Quebec....

>... 3) Anyone else tried these beers and what did you
>think?

I've tried a few of their beers - La Maudite, La Fin Du Monde, Blance de
Chambly, and La Gaillarde. I like them all with La Fin being my favorite
so far. Our local spirit shop has been running a great promotion on these
beers - $4.99 for a gift pack which has 2 x 750mL bottles (corked), a nice
glass (different shape for each different beer) and coasters. Not a bad
deal! The bottles will be great for refilling with mead...

Cheers!

 -Alan 


Alan Meeker
Baltimore, MD



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Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:40:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at mail.imagin.net>
Subject: Refermentation; Queen of Beer

Greetings,

A while back, Shane Cook asked:
> 1) According to the Unibroue web page their beers
> are refermented in the bottle, what does that mean?

Looking over the web site, it looks like they carbonate by bottle
conditioning, rather than filtering and force-carbonating, and that this
is the "refermentation" they are talking about.

 - - - - - - - - - -
Charley Burns posted an announcement for the "Queen of Beer" competition.
Is this related to the "Queen of Quaff" column in Southwest Brewer?  The
name is similar, but not the same.

Since both coordinators have email addresses, why did they have to get
a MAN to do their HBD posting?  :-)  I'll assume he was just passing on
some info he'd received.

Perhaps this competition will raise the visibility of women in brewing,
and that's good.  There's a stereotype of this being a "man's" hobby -- at
the moment, that's demographically true, but there's no inherent reason
for it.

On the other hand, I'd hate to see a lot of "women-only" contests, or
"women's" sections in regular brewing contests.  This would suggest (to
some) that women can't do as well, and need their own category to win at
all -- like in female weightlifting or women's track and field, where the
genetic differences actually DO make a difference.

Is there any kind of organization working on getting women brewing, and
raising their visibility?  Do you women on the list think that would be a
good idea?

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam: see http://www.cauce.org/ \\\ Smert Spamonam


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Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:28:54 -0400
From: "Paul A. Hausman" <paul at lion.com>
Subject: Re: Wyeast 3068


> Is this strain known for explosive starts?

Every time I've used it.

> I've noticed the posts about shelf life of Weizens brewed with 3068

But the good news seems to be overlooked here,  They are usually quite 
drinkable by 3-4 weeks from brew-day and very good by week 6.  And I 
find them to be great summer brews since they tollerate relatively
high fermentation temps and are oh-so-good when you come in from the
lawnmower...

***************************
>Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:55:01 -0400
>From: "Paul E. Lyon" <lyon at osb1.wff.nasa.gov>
>Subject: Wyeast 3068
>
>    I've noticed the posts about shelf life of Weizens brewed with 3068, and
>I appreciate the warning.  I just brewed a Weizen (og 1.046) and pitched
>into my 6.5 gal glass primary.  My starter was at high kaurazen when I
>pitched, so my lag time was only a couple of hours.  The day after pitching,
>the yeast head in the primary had reached the top of the fermenter, and
>pushed its way through the airlock.  I have since attached a blow off hose,
>but man, I have never seen such active fermentation.  Is this strain known
>for explosive starts?
>
>Thanks,
> P.E.L.
- ----
Paul A. Hausman                <paul at lion.com>
Lion Technology Inc., Lafayette, NJ, 07848 USA


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Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:12:05 -0400
From: Peter.Perez at smed.com
Subject: Re: 5 gallons before or after break material settles

I originally asked:

>My typical procedure for extract or partial mash brews is to chill in the
kettle, rack into a carboy, top off to 5 gallons, let sit for a few minutes
until all break material >settles, then rack off break into another carboy
(to be used as the primary), pitch yeast and seal.  My question is after
the break settles (it never all settles out in the >kettle for me) and I
rack off of it into another carboy for primary fermentation, I probably no
longer have 5 gallons.  I would think that the break probably amounts to
>1/2 to 1 gallon.  Does this make sense?  Should I be topping off a second
time after racking off the break?  Any criticisms of my process would be
well >appreciated.

I have received plenty of responses and a lot of great info.  I would like
to thank all the people who took the time to help and at least seemed truly
concerned about my brews.  I wish I could name all of you but it would take
to much time to go thru all my mails and filter out all your names - but
thanks anyway!

Basically I heard that it is okay to top off (with boiled and chilled water
preferably) if it does not compromise the original gravity that I am
shooting for.  Others have said that is not a big deal to just leave the
cold break material in the primary.  Some said they try to start with
enough wort to end up with 5 gallons of beer at the correct gravity at
kegging/bottling time.  I personally don't know if I am qualified to make
such calculations or manipulations to the recipes I usually use.

The only question I am left with is:  What do all of you do?  Do you let
the cold break settle out and rack off of it before pitching?  If so do you
top off in the primary or do you just accept the fact that you may have
lost some volume by doing this?  Or do you just leave the break material in
the primary?  Okay, so its more than one question....   I am just wondering
what is the general consensus or general practice.  Or should I assume that
everyone has their own way of doing things?  Please let me know.

Thanks,

Pete




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Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 16:32:38 -0400
From: "Timothy Green" <TimGreen at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE:Percentage will be laid to....

Peter Gilbreth wrote a great deal about what is surely a fine way to
interpret the percentages in recipes. I my opinion as a fairly new brewer,
doing the extract percentages is just too much hassle for what you get.

For someone who enjoys figuring every last bit out before brewing I say
great, knock yourself out. But for someone like me, 0.005 of gravity is not
significant across a 5 to 10 gallon batch. I will continue to read the
percentages as percentages of grist rather than extract.

I am not that concerned with entering my beers in any contest or brewing to
any style, I just want to brew beers that taste good.

Tim Green

Mead is great...
Beer is good...
(But beer is much faster)



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Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:50:17 -0500
From: rkkskala at juno.com (Robert J Skala)
Subject: Lager

I have just finished bottling my first lager, a pilsner.
My question in this, do I have to store the bottles at 
room temp. before putting them in the 'fridge,
or should I just put them in now.  

TIA
Rob Skala
Park Forest,Il

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


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Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:06:45 PDT
From: "Rosenzweig,Steve" <Steve_Rosenzweig at wb.xerox.com>
Subject: So fill that 'meister!

If I'm reading things correctly on the full vs empty fridge thread, I 
 should endeavor to keep my beer meister full at all times (as if that 
 isn't my goal now!).  I bought this unit a few years back second hand 
 and replaced the thermostat about two years ago.  It holds 4 cornies 
 perfectly and maintains a good 45 deg F without an excessive degree of 
 cycling on and off as far as I can tell.

Sadly, I am now down to three kegs available to tap, and the space for 
 the fourth sits empty.  I suppose the best thing to do for the 
 efficiency of the 'meister is to fill another corny up with cold 
 water, maybe even drop some ice in it, seal it up, and put it in the 
 fourth position.  That way the thermal mass of the fourth corny, being 
 better than that of the air that would otherwise occupy that space, 
 will cause the 'meister to cycle less often, hopefully saving life in 
 my compressor.

As I empty my kegs I should follow a similar routine . . . until I run 
 out completely and accidently tap a water keg . . . hmmm when did I 
 make this Coors Lite clone?

Does my water corny theory make sense, or am I crazy from the heat?

Of course once I start brewing again come fall, the first task will be 
 to start kegging like mad!

Stephen
On brewing hiatus in Ontario NY



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Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:52:46 -0400
From: marli at bbs2.rmrc.net (Jon Macleod)
Subject: hemp beer

Before I start, I would like to agree on the recent post regarding the
marketing of hemp beers.  If they want to be taken serious, cute/sly
references to dope are not the right way to go about it.  (I'm not
referring to any particular company, just the previous posts comments) 
Much like the rest of the hemp issue; there are several good arguments
to be made for its industrial production, however, these are virtually
never presented by economists.   A Grateful Dead show is not the right
place to set agricultural policy.   (no flames please)

With that in mind....I do think the Hempen Ale out of Maryland is a good
product.  I think it has a distinctive and pleasant taste.  I haven't
seen others, but am a fan of this one.  I have also brewed my own beer
using about 1.5 lbs of toasted hemp seeds.  It was awesome!   This was
added to a recipe I've brewed numerous times, so I can tell you it did
contribute a different "nutty, spicy" flavor.

Back to the top; this is a marketing issue, and with all such questions,
time will tell.

Mike



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Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:24:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: dfikar at flash.net
Subject: Cold break removal


>Steve Alexander writes:

>Removing cold break is widely held to produce beers with cleaner
>flavor.  I certainly agree with this. 

Is this really true?  I don't make any special effort to remove the cold break
other than using a SS pot scrubber in the bottom of by brew kettle to filter
the hops and some break while pumping the wort to my fermenter.  In the 
competitions I've entered I usually score better with the kind of beers you'd
think would be most affected by off flavors - i.e. pilsners, alts, etc.

I know that a fair amount of cold break gets into the primary.  What gives?
Why don't the judges score my darker ales better than the lighter beers 
mentioned above if cold break is interfering with the cleanness of my
beers?

Dean Fikar




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Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:40:25 +0000
From: philgro at swcp.com
Subject: chlorine attacking stainless(not)

I've been lurking awhile,but was finally moved to post.
I've been a professional winemaker for 10 years,and a homebrewer for 
longer (though more sporadicly).
   I've noticed lots of posts by people who are afraid to use 
chlorine on stainless steel,and many of the homebrew suppliers seem 
to perpetuate this.My local supplier even said he would never use 
chlorine in minikegs (which as most of you know,aren't even naked 
metal!).One post yesterday said someone was afraid to soak a corny 
in chloraminated tap water!(Sorry-don't mean to ridicule you)
  I'm here to tell you:quit worrying about it!!I might be concerned 
about that sintered airstone in pure Chlorox, but your brew kettle or 
corny?! I soak fittings overnight all the time at work,in a pretty 
strong solution of swimming pool chlorine.I've soaked beer kegs 
dozens of time for several days.Are they pitted?Full of holes?
Hell no!Even when the granulated Ca-hypochlorite doesn't quite 
dissolve and little chunks just sit there on the bottom.
   Though it may be a fact that chlorine CAN attack stainless,in real 
life,it ain't worth worrying about,especially if were just talking 
about an oz or 2 of bleach.
   Just make sure you rinse it off well before your wort or  beer 
goes in/on it!!



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Date: 20 Jul 98 20:57:17 -0700
From: "Eric Schoville" <ESCHOVIL at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Dunkelweizen

All,

	Does anyone comment on the difference between various
Dunkelweizens?  To me there seems to be quite a difference
between amber dunkelweizens like the one made by Paulaner 
and dark dunkelweizens like the ones made by Erdinger and
Oberdorfer.  They defininely have a different grain bill,
and it seems to me like they use different yeast strains as
well.  Is there any authoritative work on this?  I have Warner's
style series book on Weizens, but I am looking for additional
input.
	For my last dunkelweizen I used a 50% pils/
50% malted wheat recipe using Wyeast 3068.  It was similar
to a Paulaner dunkelweizen, but I really prefer the Erdinger/
Oberdorfer type.  Does anyone have a recipe for this?  What 
yeast strain is appropriate?  A neutral yeast?

TIA,

Eric Schoville in way too hot and dry Dallas, TX
about 25 miles west of Dave Draper and Paul Kensler
about 8 or 9 miles NE of John Wilkinson


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Date: 20 Jul 98 21:03:07 -0700
From: "Eric Schoville" <ESCHOVIL at us.oracle.com>
Subject: IPA revisited

All,

	Can someone point me to a prototypical example of an
IPA?  It seems to me that the few British IPAs that I have 
had here in the US are very mild compared to the style
guidelines.  Is the classic style much different than what
is available today?  Do the superhopped ales that some of
us hopheads produce merit a new style?  
	If anyone has any suggestions, I am going to be in
London the night of August 15th.  If there is a pub that I
can visit to ease my doubts, let me know.

Eric Schoville in Dallas, TX
Close to Dave Draper
Closer to Paul Kensler
Closest to John Wilkinson


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Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 22:39:25 -0700
From: "J. Kish" <jjkish at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Yeast Storage

To Mark Wilson,
       Don't store your yeast in slants on agar---They will have a
limited lifetime and are difficult to work with.
  Get a hold of the article, "A Simple, Practical Method for Long-
Term Storage of Yeast", by Michael D. Graham, Brewing Techniques 5,
March/April (1997), pp 58-62.
  He stores the yeast in sterile distilled water in 6mL vials on
the bookshelf---No need for refrigeration at all, and they last
for many years.
  The method is so good, I wrote another article using the same
technique to store gourmet mushroom cultures.
     Joseph Kish      jjkish at worldnet.att.net


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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:38:38 +0300
From: "Sandy Macmillan" <scotsman at ncc.moc.kw>
Subject: Counter Pressure Filling

I have been following this thread. I bought in the local hardware store a
joinery clamp that uses one-inch pipe to hold the two clamps together. I
then adapted this to use one clamp to screw the bolt into the filler bung. I
made my own counter pressure filler as they are not available in the country
I work in!! This allows both hands free to operate the valves. I also use
quarter turn ball valves for gas and liquid, but use a needle valve for the
vent connection. This gives easier control. I have had some success in
introducing a small about 25 ml of beer in very quickly. This hits the
bottom of the bottle and sprays up the sides. This technique seems to me to
reduce the later foaming as the glass surface is wetted.
If anyone wants a picture of the filler email me directly at
scotsman at ncc.moc.kw

Sandy Macmillan



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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 06:02:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steve <JOHNSONS at uansv5.Vanderbilt.Edu>
Subject: Country Condensate & "Frog Snot"

In HBD# 2773, Sam Mize and "Fridge Guy" advise against using the water from
the dehumidifier in my brewing water.  Well, seeing that I boil all of my
tap water ahead of time to get rid of our unusually high amounts of chlorine,
I can just add the "frog snot" to it directly if I need to soften my mash
water.  How about a "Frog Snot Pils" or "Pre-Prohibition Frog Snot"...sounds
mighty tasty...!

Steve Johnson,
brewing in Nashville as soon as I finish this danged dissertation


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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:24:54 -0400
From: "Robert C. Sprecher, M.D." <rcs8 at en.com>
Subject: How long to aerate with pure O2?

I've got a SS stone and adapter for the propane style O2 tanks.
THe tank says there's enough O2 for a 10-20 min burn.
That didn't strike me as very much O2 given the tanks $9 cost.

How long should I oxygenate 5 gallons of cooled wort with this?
Seconds, minutes?

Thanks.
Rob



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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:28:04 -0400
From: Fred Johnson <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Yeast growth vs. fermentation

Peter Gilbreth writes regarding yeast growth:

> The fermentation stage will only begin when the yeast reach an approximate
> concentration of 50,000,000 cells per ml.
>
I think this concept comes from C. Papazian who says the yeast stop
growing when they reach a certain concentration and then begin to
ferment.  I've never understood this nor have I heard anyone else make
this claim or offered an explanation for it.  Is this true, and if so, how
do yeast know their concentration.

This also seems to imply that the sugar concentration of the wort is not
important in determining the degree of cell growth.

 Peter also writes:

>  The rate of fermentation will depend on the rate and extent of yeast
> growth.
>
Does Peter really mean that the RATE fermentation,  which he says begins
AFTER the yeast have grown, is dependent upon the RATE of growth?  How do
the yeast remember at what rate they grew?  Does Peter also mean that the
NUMBER of cell divisions determines the RATE of fermentation?  Or does
Peter really mean that the rate of fermentation is dependent upon the
amount of yeast present?
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina





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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:55:45 -0400
From: Doug Moyer <Douglas.Moyer at geics.ge.com>
Subject: White Labs Belgian Wit 

Dearest friends,
	Has anyone used this yeast? On July 5th, I brewed a wit (by weight,
approx. 50% lager malt, 45% torrified wheat, 5% rolled oats). I used the
"pitchable" White Labs Belgian wit yeast, no starter. Temps were/are too
high--above 75 the first 36 hours, probably low 70's since then. It has
been bubbling about once per ten seconds for the past 10 days or so, and
still has a thick (2") krausen. I don't like to take a hydrometer
reading unless I am transfering, so I don't know what the gravity is. 
	If you've used this yeast, how did it behave? Any ideas when this crazy
stuff will be finished? Have you used at such high temps? IMBR?
	On a completely different note, when changing the subject partway
through their post, some people will write (for example) "ObBrewing".
What the heck does the "Ob" mean? I thought I had most of these darn
acronyms down pat. Oh well....

More beer faster!
Doug Moyer
Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity/
Pictures of my baby: http://www.rev.net/~kmoyer/


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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:19:57 -0400
From: NAZELROD at tst.tracor.com (NAZELROD)
Subject: re: fridge -- to stuff or not to stuff

In HBD 2770  "Jay Spies" <spiesjl at mda.state.md.us> asks if it is more 
efficient to run a fridge nearly empty or nearly full.  To answer this 
question we need to decide on a measure of efficiency.  A few reasonable 
measures are: $ per month, $ per (month * pound), and $ per (month * sq ft) 
where pound and sq ft are measures of how much stuff is in the fridge.  For 
a more useful answer to this question, look at the answer from Forrest the 
FridgeGuy.

Gary "I came out of lurking for this?" Nazelrod 
Silver Spring MD


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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:47:04 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: First Wort Hopping

Brad Johnson <bjohnson at berkshire.net> writes about his California Steam beer:
>the beer tasted OK
>on kegging - a little rough but that's what lagering is for
<snip>
>	N Brewer 3.85 oz  at  6.9 AAU 60 min, FWH
>	N Brewer 2 oz 10 min.
<snip>
>and the hop flavor is overwhelming, even cloying. It also has a
>pronounced bitterness, perhaps consistent with increased utilization
>with FWH.
>I am interested in other's experiences with FWH - I have read of its use
>primarily with noble type hops, but have seen others refer to using all
>sorts of hop varieties. IMBR? Will extensive lagering tame the wild and
>wooly flavors I find?

You have several hop related questions, it seems to me - roughness and high
hop flavor.  The first may be overhopping:

Using Dr. Bob Technical"s Hop Go-Round (Rager's efficiency assumptions, I
think),  your first addition, assuming 23% efficiency for whole hops, = 40
IBU, if 30% for pellets, = 52  IBU.   The second addition = 8 or 10 IBU
assuming 9% or 11% efficiency for whole or pellets.

So bitterness is 48-62 IBU, ignoring the likely additional extraction from
the time prior to boil.  This is pretty high, especially if you used
pellets.  This may be the roughness you describe, and lagering will only
somewhat reduce this, in my experience.  The additional bitterness from FWH
has been described as smooth and clean, as opposed to rough, but this is
with regard to smaller amounts of hops, and with noble hops.

FWH is normally done not with the bittering hops but with half of the
flavor hops, so you might have used 1 oz. FWH and the remaining 1 oz. for
10 minutes.  FWH research was done in Germany which probably accounts for
the use of noble hops in the literature.  I've used Golding and Columbus
with good results, and Cluster with an unpleasant black currant flavor
resulting.  N. Brewer should work, but the amount you used is, I think,
excessive, and your results suggest this is the case.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:21:50 -0500
From: Andrew Ager <andrew-ager at nwu.edu>
Subject: Better temp control in a Gott

Greetings oh HBD, the Great and Powerful....hey!  who are all those guys
running around back there drinkin' beer!?!

Oh, uh, anyway -- so I've been doing a few step-infusions in my Gott
lately, and am wondering about a few things.

AS an example, I'll use Sunday's Kolsch session.

I started out with a rest at 95 that I overshot, so it was more like 110.
No big deal there.  I infused about 2.25 qts. of boiling water and managed
to hit 131F pretty much on the nose.  Now the problem came when I raised it
to 149F for conversion -- I stirred quite a bit (another 2.25 qts. boiling
water), but it was still all over the place -- some spots were still 130,
others were spot-on at 149.  I finally gave up and just sealed teh thing
up, and hoped that the temps. would equalize themselves.  Not.

After 45 min., spots were still 130, and others were 149.  I went ahead and
sparged, and the extraction wasn't quite where I wnated it, but still good
(missed by 3 points, not really that bad), so I assume conversion actually
occurred.

However, I'd like to get even temps in the mash-tun.  Could it be I'm just
not stirring enough?

Oh, grain bill:

4 lbs. Belgian pilsner
1 lb. wheat

for 3.5 gallons

Thanks (wow -- 2 posts in '98, I've already hot my yearly quota and it's
only July!),


Andy Ager
Hair of the Cat Brewery,  Chicago, IL
Beer Reviewer at The Virtual Beer Garden, http://www.virtualbeer.com
Home Pages:  http://pubweb.nwu.edu/~ada775




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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:26:16 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox"<pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Too high temps for Wheats





From: Philip J Wilcox at CMS on 07/21/98 10:26 AM

Dave,

80F is beyond the max for most ales and is the Max for some wheat strains.
Your desire to change it should depend on what flavor profile you are
looking for: If you like Clove and hate bananas in your beer, and you dont
mind it smelling like perfume (Very Phenolic) just let it go. Some german
wheat beers are like this. I prefer to have a little of both and lower
phenols. If you agree, Its time for the wet t-shirt and a fan. I use a lid
off a plastic storage box. Put the t-shirt on the carboy. Place the carboy
on the lid and pour cold water around the neck of the carboy to wet the
entire t-shirt and partially filling the lid. A spash of bleach will keep
the nasties down for a while. Put a fan or air conditioner blowing on the
carboy. The shirt will wick the water in the lid and the heat used to
evaporate the water in the shirt will be traded with the heat from the
beer, thus cooling the beer slightly 5 degrees max. is my experience

If you have the plastic tub that goes withthe lid you could fill it with
cold water and your carboy and add ice. If you can scrounge 4 1/2 gal milk
jugs you can rotate 2 of them every 8 hours. Its alot of work, but the end
justifies the means.

Getting wheat beer temps right, is one of the biggest challenges in
homebrewing. Temp control is critical to getting it "right!" OTOH, mistakes
in this area are always drinkable!!!! I tapped my latest wheat last night,
using an american wheat recipe, and Wienenstephen W3806. When I kegged it 3
weeks ago It was violently phenolic, Last night it went very well in and
with the brats, and the phenolics were under control.

The most incredible example of balance I've ever had is in DeGroens's
Wiezen. Its a micro distributed out east and brewed at the Baltimore
Brewing Company. Best wheat beer I've ever had. period.

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewery
Sec/Treas/Editor/WebGuy 4 the Prison City Brewers
hbd.org/prisioner




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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:40:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
Subject: Calculating recipe grist by %

i have to side with Jim Busch with the simple method..

( Hi Jim, how da brewery doin' - still dont see much of yur 
	stuff up here )

keep your life simple - no two brewers/breweries are the
same - and to can a phrase "your mileage will vary" really fits
well in the homebrewery and commercial brewery.

both the methods %/wt or %/extract will get you into the ball park,
if your process and raw materials are reasonable predictable
(here is the part that matters) then you will get the product
you are looking for. that is the "rocket science part".

once your in the ball park (color, bitterness, OG/FG, yeast)
smaller adjustments can be made.  this is the art part.
you gotta balance both. for the noncommercial brewers
you must keep it fun and interesting.

pick your method, make your calculations, brew, and enjoy - repeat....

good luck and great brewing
joe rolfe 





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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:04:23 -0700
From: Todd Crane <crane at goodnet.com>
Subject: re:Colorado Visit

When you are in Colorado if you can take a side trip to Ft Collins, I
recomend a trip to the New Belgium Brewery, 500 Linden, Ft. Collins.
They make all belgium style ales, the most popular being Fat Tire Amber
Ale, but they also make Sunshine Wheat, Belgiun wit, Abbey, a double,
And Tripple.  Fat Tire is the best selling micro brewed beer, in every
market it is sold in.  It would be worth the trip.

Good luck
TAC



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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:10:24 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox"<pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: 1/2 BBL Efficiecies with big batches





From: Philip J Wilcox at CMS on 07/21/98 11:10 AM

Randy,

So long as you keep you mash "Floating" you shouldnt sick it. Dough in
carefully maybe with more water in the keg when starting to add grain. I
used 36 lbs in my barlywine. I lost 1% in efficiency. 81 down to 80%. I was
impressed. Others have argued that the in bigger batches you efficiency
should go up not down. since you are then achieveing the optimal 18" grain
bed depth. My keg has a 16 guage SS false bottom from Heartland 11" and 1/2
inch plumbing throughout my system. I Have not suck anything yet. This
spring I posted a poll on this subject so here are the results:

James Lee (Jim) Ellingson's system:
36 lbs is comfortable.  Can do step infusions and decoctions.
46 lbs is the absolute limit... single step infusion,
   dough-in half the grain then add the rest, since stirring will be next
   to impossible.
Direct heating of the mash has always resulted in
scorching of the flour under the false bottom.
Consequently I've stopped doing it.
2. Typical is 90+%, 30-34 pts/lb/gal.  Note that you won't
get the same efficiency w/ a barley wine, unless you're
willing to boil off a very considerable extra volume.
5. False bottom type.
Standard Sabco.  Punched SS w/ a center hinge.

Paul alldey at aol.com's system:
1. My biggest whole batch was 32 lbs with plenty of room left .  I
guestimate I could mash 50 lbs.
2. What are your efficiencies? My efficiency is nearly always right at 85%,
infusion mashing.  With the big batch, I only got 80%.
5. False bottom type:  Stainless screen.

Jason Mulholland's System:
1. What are your max capacities? Theory and actual attempted
I have mashed 25 lbs. before for a batch of barleywine/small beer.  I think
I could do something in the low thirties -- maybe 33.  There's something
exciting about the big mashes (I invariably call my wife out to look as
doughing in, 'Look at it! Just look at it!)
2. What are your efficiencies?
80% -- kept using 75% (default setting for SUDS Brewers Database, but
overshooting).  Adjusting to 80% hits my OG right on the nose.  My
calculations agreed with your Doppelbock OG (10 gals, 27 lbs., 1.076,
though 80%, not 81% -- assumes 1.035 per lb/gal using 2-row lager malt)
5. False bottom type.
Pico systems copper false bottom on their SS grid platform -- 3 gallons
under the screen.  Yes, 3 gallons!

Both Dave West and Mike O'Brian of PICO Systems agree that (at least the
AABG club PICO (read as old system)) has a max of 45 lbs of grain. 42 lbs
has considerable less mess.

Phil Wilcox.




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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:16:21 -0600
From: "arne seeger" <seeger at pdrpip.com>
Subject: tubing

In response to the question about tubing.
I don't know how good the tubing is at home depot,
but you can find food grade tubing at places that sell 
fish tank supplies.  
Seeger
seeger at pdrpip.com



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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:12:05 -0700
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: 5 gallin All Grain -> 10 gallon batch.

Hiya Brewing Collective...

Badger here, with another of his random side shot questions.

I am getting a 5 gallon Gott type mash tun from a freind, and i normally do
10 gallon extract + specialty grains batches in my 15 gallon converted keg
kettle.  

My question is ...  Can i mash enough grain in the Gott cooler to do an ALL
grain batch and still get 10 gallons, but not get Bud Lite strength results?
am i going to have to suplement with extract in teh boil to get teh proper
strength?   Any suggestions for brewing in  Gott to a 10 gallon batch? Ok,
so that was 3 questions..  sorry.

any help you guys can give would be great!   thanks for the daily reminders
of how cool brewing is, and the extension of knowledge that comes from
reading this list.

*********************************************
Brander Roullett aka Badger

Brewing Page: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html
Badgers Brewing Bookstore: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/brewbook.html

In the SCA: 
Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven, Innkeeper of the Cat and Cup Inn



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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:39:45 +0000
From: Bill Goodman <goodman at APWK01G1.nws.noaa.gov>
Subject: Extract brewing questions

I have some questions about making extract-based brews:

1.  Earlier this year, I recall reading some HBD posts
    recommending limiting the use of Irish Moss in protein-
    deficient worts (including those made from malt syrups) to
    1/4 teaspoon or less.  What makes malt syrups protein
    deficient?  Would a 4 lb. can of Alexander's Pale
    Malt Extract, which provides 128 ppm FAN (free amino
    nitrogen?) at 10% solution, be considered protein deficient?
    What are some typical FAN levels for all-grain brews?

2.  What kind of water should I use for extract brews, tap water
    or distilled?  Since malt extract contains minerals of its
    own, wouldn't it be better to use distilled?

- -- 
Bill Goodman
Olney, MD


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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:31:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at mail.imagin.net>
Subject: Neophyte instructions; enzymes; bats n weeds; conspiracy theory

NFGS writes: "I am contemplating my first batch of home made beer. ...
Now I need ... some simple first time instructions."

To keep it visible to new readers:

  http://www.brewery.org

The technical library section will keep you happily busy for some time.

 - - - - - - - - - -
Fred Johnson asks: "the enzymes in barley malt ...  Are these enzymes
active at normal ambient temperatures in the plants?

Yep, just lots slower.  A barley plant takes days to use up its starch.  We
heat it up and force it to finish in an hour or so.

> And/or did God give these plants these enzymes so that man could enjoy
> beer (and brewing)?

I understand that Ben Franklin said "Beer is proof that God loves us and
wants us to be happy."

 - - - - - - - - - -
Jack Schmidling tells us:
> I made a number of documentaries, the most popular being
> "BACKYARD SAFARI" which ended up front page in the National Inquirer
> as the "Wacky Weed Man".

I'm guessing this is unrelated to the hemp beer thread...

Best,
Sam Mize

PS: Help!!!  A NEFARIOUS FEIND under the COVER STORY of BREWING has
exposed huge BATCHES of WORT to polytartanic PLAID to create GIANT MUTANT
FLUID WARRIORS to sneak through drain pipes and ATTACK the AHA in their
mountain FASTNESS.  I tried to warn CHARLIE: the pipes!!!  THE PIPES!!1!!!
but was intercepted I think as he NEVER EVEN READ MY EMAIL.  Help me warn
the AHA before this UNSEELY CALEDONIAN RAT can take over the HBD WEB SITE
and cut OFF our line of communicatio;p- -*$_^

NO CARRIER


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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:07:30 +0000
From: Bill Goodman <goodman at APWK01G1.nws.noaa.gov>
Subject: Moving full carboys / Tubing / Electric stove problem

A few more questions for the HBD:

1.  Can anyone recommend some safety pointers regarding moving
    full 5-gallon carboys?  Has anyone here built gadgets to
    make moving them easier and safer?  I've been very concerned
    about brewing safety after reading a number of postings
    either here or to rec.crafts.brewing about hospital
    emergency room visits due to cuts from broken carboys (not
    to mention burns from wort chiller effluent!).  I had been
    lugging full carboys around with one of those orange carboy
    handles, and am probably quite lucky that the necks didn't
    snap right off...makes me wonder if I should replace the
    carboys I have...

2.  Is the 3/8" ID clear vinyl tubing available at Home Depot
    considered to be "food grade"?

3.  I do my brewing on an electric stove.  I had been using a
    wire trivet underneath the brewpot to prevent wort
    scorching, but get slow, weak boils due to less direct
    contact with the heating element.  What can I use to get
    better contact with the element, yet avoid scorching?

Thanks...

- -- 
Bill Goodman
Olney, MD


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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:23:21 -0700
From: Dave Sapsis <DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov>
Subject: recipe formulations

Feeling argumentative today (me: "I DO NOT!") I just gotta chime in
here.
Sometime last week, Peter opined:

>5 pounds of M&F pale will give a very different amount of extract than
5 lbs of
>Briess 2 row.                                                     

to defend the need to specify recipe proportions in extract.  I gotta
believe that the percentage yield difference between these two malts is
on the order of 1 or 2%, and that precision of our setups (volume
measurements, errors due to adsorbed water, losses to freeboard,
differences in crush, differences in lautering regime, variability in
malt lots, etc.etc, put that notion to rest.

What I beleive I am getting at is that recipes should specify by weight
proportions of specific grain types, and anybody trying to emulate them
needs to figure that brewing procedures will have a significant
influence.  Even if you assume specific extraction efficencies for a
particular recipe breakdown, there is no gurantee they are either
correct or duplicatable.  Other than for base malts (where a brewer
*may* have rigorously tested for extraction efficiencies) people are
bound to be using  (relying) on some published figure for all other
extract sources.  Hence: if were gonna use some average extraction
figure for source X, then whats the difference.?  

All recipes are is a basic design, which each brewer needs to
reformulate given the specifics of their procedures.  That said, you
cannot compare apples with coconuts.  Do not substitute 2 pounds of
sugar for two pounds of munich malt and expect the same thing.  However,
I fail to see the need for expressing recipes in anything other than
mass proportions where the goods type is clearly identified. 

OK, now someone make my day and tell me I'm wrong.

Cheers,
- --dave, nomex in closet


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Date: 21 Jul 1998 16:50:24 -0400
From: JGORMAN at steelcase.com
Subject: High ferm temps/Saison


For your high fermentation temperatures, try placing the fermenter in a tub of
cold water and place a T-shirt over the fermenter.  Pre-soak the T- shirt and
let it drape in to the water.  The water will
wick up the side.  This will lower the temp a couple of degrees. To lower
it more add ice to the tub water.

What is Saison.  I had one at a local micro-brewery, but could not find any
reference to it anywhere in books or on the internet. Recipes?
It was an interesting brew sweet and light in color with a thickflavor.


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---