---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: grist %, one more time ("Jim Busch")
  Lactose Contribution to O.G. ("BG Krause")
  3333, 1/2 bbl tun, Timo ("LordPeter")
  Re: Counter pressure filling / Benjamin filler (David Sherfey)
  Kit recipes; 15 gal batches; yeast starters ("Steven Jones")
  How to fix under-carbonation? (Keith Busby)
  RE: First Wort Hopping (AllDey)
  Nice to meet you (Nathan Kanous)
  Old Firestone keg parts? (John Elsworth)
  Brew Storage Questions.. (MLogan8534)
  Malt enzyme temp/pH optima (Allen Senear)
  Hop ice cream (Garrett Pelton)
  IPA's ("Brad McMahon")
  Re: Queen of Beer (HBD #2774) ("Joel Plutchak")
  Pure O2 (MAB)
  RE: So fill that 'meister! (LaBorde, Ronald)
  re: Moving full carboys (nie1kwh)
  chlorine attacking stainless (Spencer W Thomas)
  re: carboy safety ("Lou Heavner")
  Re: 5 gallin All Grain -> 10 gallon batch. ("Tidmarsh Major")
  Lagering (Rick Theiner)
  Chlorine and stainless (Rick Theiner)


Have you entered a MCAB qualifier yet?


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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:49:41 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: Re: grist %, one more time

LordPeter writes:

> First, I don't know what J Busch means by:
> >Percentages of grist per malt variety in recipes are always specified
> in terms of percent of total weight, not extract. 
> 
> My post in 2771 outlines the way I was taught to formulate recipes by
> Christopher Bird, who is a faculty member of Siebel Institute. This was
> information given to me during my two week Intensive Brewing Course there.

Chill Lord,  you learned very well how to formulate extract 
percentages and predict OG per each % grain unit.  Good.  Thats not 
what the basic question was, we all talk about grist percentages as 
percent of total weight, thats all.  This is very simple.

> you have a recipe that calls for 80% 2 row, 10% crystal, 5% carapils, and 5%
> wheat malt, you have to have a starting point. Say you want this to be a 5

Excatly, bingo!  This is all you need, what percentages was the 
author/brewer using?  From that info you take your own efficiency and 
experience and tweak the recipe.  She might have liked 10% caramel 60 
and you may prefer 10% caramel 40, your actual extract difference 
will be very slight even if you drop to only 9% of caramel 60 (or 
40).  The whole idea is to get you in ballpark, not to the exact same 
extract per malt type on the very first replication of the recipe 
(which will vary as much by system design and use).

> gallon recipe, with a SG of 1.048. Ok, how many total pounds of grain do you
> need? If you use 30 pt/lb/gal ((and you will be expecting this extract value
> to be the same for all 4 grains (which will NOT be the case)), a SG of 1.048

Of course its not the same between base malts and specialties!  But 
we should get roughly the same results from each using 5% of grist 
weight of the same caramel 60.  Its that simple.

When I do pilots and finalize on a recipe, I dont tell the guys to 
step up my figures per grains from 1BBl to 25 BBl, I tell em the 
grist weight percentages I used (we do use the same malt brands 
between pilots and micro batches as suppliers will vary of course).  
Then the micro does their own calculation to determine the 
corresponding grist for their efficiency.  In the end they will 
usually use a tad less than 25 times my 1 BBl numbers but we will 
both end up with the same beer as described by percent weight per 
malt type. 

Prost!

Jim Busch



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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:05:25 -0400
From: "BG Krause" <bkrause at gwis.com>
Subject: Lactose Contribution to O.G.

Question:
Since lactose is unfermentable, what would the contribution of 1.5 lbs. of
lactose be to the O.G. in a five gallon batch of Sweet Stout?  The recipe I
have says to add it during the last 15 minutes of the 90 minute boil.

- ----  Brian Krause  -----
brian_krause at goodyear.com
bkrause at gwis.com
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are TWO rules for success in life:
Rule 1: Don't tell people everything you know.




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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:34:27 -0700
From: "LordPeter" <BARLEYWINE at prodigy.net>
Subject: 3333, 1/2 bbl tun, Timo

David Campbell writes:

>I just brewed a wheat ale on Saturday using Wyeast 3333 (German Wheat).
{SNIP}
>temperature of the liquid topped out at 80 degrees.  Incidentally,
>when I first added the yeast, it was 74 degrees and has been slowly rising
since.


At temperatures of 80F you can probably expect a high level of fusel
alcohols. These can be mild, but more generally they create a nail polish
remover aroma. Acetone, that bubble blowing plastic gunk we used to get when
we were kids, plastic: these are descriptors of fusels.

Wyeast gives a range of 63 to 75 F for 3333.

 Any fermentation will produce heat. The trick is to gauge how to
attemperate so that you adjust for the heat kick. Usually you will see a
heat kick of about 3 F. It is known to be as high as 10 F.

If your room thermostat is set at 72, you can expect 75 to 80 to be possible
for the fermentation temperature. A good method for you to control
(somewhat) the fermentation temperature is to use evaporation as your ally.
Simply place the fermenter into a shallow pan of cold water. Now cover it
with a bathtowel which is soaked in water first, and allowed to hang into
the pan. As evaporation occurs the temerature should be brought down 5 to 10
F. A fan will accelerate the process. The pan of water will "wick up" the
towel, keeping it moist. Everyday you will need to add water to your pan.

Worked for me. (With a glass carboy: don't know about the bucket)


Randy Pressley is concerned about his half bbl convert and its ability to
hold a mash for a 15 gallon batch:
Randy, I also use a half bbl convert, and although I have never tried to
push 15 gallon out, I usually have a kettle full volume of 14.5 gallons. I
have mashed dopplebocks and trippels out of this vessel, and my BME
continues to be about 83%. I believe you can do what you are wanting. One
thing you may consider trying is mashing for more extract, then diluting
into your fermenter. With this small volume of dilution, I don't think you
would even notice a difference, other than hop utilization changing slightly
(for the worse.)  13.5 gallons of 1.060 wort diluted with 1.5 gallons clean
oxygenated water yields 15 gallons of 1.054 wort.

I say go for it!


Back again to the percentage problem:

Timo,

You insisted:

>The problem seems to be that some people confuse the commonly used terms
>"grain bill" and "malt bill" with something that might be termed
>"extract bill".

The grain bill or malt bill is the means to achieve your wort, or as you
coined: extract bill.

>What is not clear in Daniels' book is the way he handles the subject in
>Chapter 5: "Calculating the Malt Bill". Firstly, on page 28 he
>writes:"...in an authentic Bavarian weizen, wheat makes up about
>two-thirds, or 67 percent, of the total malt bill; a pale or Pilsener
>malt makes up the remaining one-third." Then he goes on calculating the
>malt bill *by extract* and concludes on page 30: 7.39 pounds of wheat
>malt and 3.88 pounds of pale malt. The problem is the contradiction to
>the earlier 67% and 33% figures: 7.39 lbs and 3.88 lbs are 65.6 % and
>34.4 % of the malt bill respectively. Also, this method contradicts with
>the way recipes are presented on pages 123-350, which is the majority of
>the book.

This is because Mr. Daniels wants the poor homebrewer to feel at ease with
his or her new hobby. He understands that many people will be put off by AR
BS like we are wasting all of this bandwidth with.
It is illustrative, then, that Mr. Daniels agrees with my assertion that the
percentage of extract is more important than the mass of seeds, malted or
otherwise, that is required to achieve the desired wort.


>Peter Gilbreth described his method of calculating the grain bill by
>extract:

>>"...(unfortunately, Briess will not give the Coarse grind, so we must
>>extrapolate from FG and FG:CG Diff)((78-(78*0.018)) = 76.6"


>You should calculate 78-1.8 = 76.2. If a malt's FG yield is 80.0% and CG
>yield is 79.0%, its FG:CG diff is 80%-79% = 1.0 %.

The FG:CG difference is expressed in percentage. 1.8% difference obviously
means that there is 1.8% difference. (Talk about redundant!?!?) 1.8% of 100
is 1.8 (100*.018 = 1.8.) 1.8% of 78 is 1.404 (78 * .018 = 1.404.) So 1.404
from 78 is 76.596. ~~~~~~~~~76.6

>>"This means with 100% Brewing Materials Efficiency (BME), we can expect
>>76.6% of 6 row and 88% of flaked corn by weight to convert into wort
>>solids."

>No it doesn't. What you forgot was the moisture. I don't know the
>moisture content of the malt, so I'll assume 4%. If you take 100 grams
>of malt, 4 grams of it is water. The dry basis/fine grind percentage of
>78% you quoted is a percentage of the remaining 96 grams. So, to get the
>coarse grind/as is extract yield from the coarse grind/dry basis yield:

>0.762 * 96 = 73.2

You have a good point here. Thank you. So if we ignore your mistake about
the CG:FG difference, and employ your one good point about moisture content:

{Voluntary Snip of What Is Probably Boring the Hell Out of Everybody. }

This looks to me like 9.4 lbs 6 row and 2.1 lbs flaked corn. Where before I
was at 9 and 2, which I admit is not accurate.

>This is why I posted -- though the method is redundent,(sic) your
>intellectual process is not.

I'm not sure how to take this one. Should my intellectual process be
redundant? I'll have to think that one over, and over, and
over.........however, I am damn well through with the calculations. I may
never touch my calculator again.
FWH:  (.15)(14g)/.35 = X; oh shit, i'm hooked ;']

Anyway,  when you get a different malt supplier, and the CG is 65, except
you didn't feel that you needed the additional PITA of math, don't come
crying to HBD because your Dopplebock is a Bock.


But really folks, there are so many factors influencing extraction rates:
characteristics of the brewing materials, water corrections, pH control,
mechanical losses, type of equipment, intensity of mashing and sparging:
brewery yields are at best approximate. What really matters is what comes
out of the bottle, keg, or party pig, eh? Pick your method, pay attention
and take notes. After some trial and error you should be getting out of your
system exactly what you want.


Cheers.
Peter Gilbreth
barleywine at prodigy.net
www.barleywine.com



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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:13:08 -0400
From: David Sherfey <sherf at warwick.net>
Subject: Re: Counter pressure filling / Benjamin filler

Robert writes;

>When filling subsequent bottles, you will see the beer drop back towards
the keg in the beer-in line when you open valve B in step 1. This is in
part due to the weight of the beer in the line. This is why I have the
keg
LOWER than the filler. This allows you to judge the speed of the beer
during filling.

What is in the empty space of the line?  I would think that this is air,
which would partially defeat the purpose of counter-pressure filling,
purging air out of the bottle.  Wouldn't it be better to avoid this by
having the keg higher than the filler?
*******

I'm still using my Benjamin Machine Products filler which uses quick
release valves for the gas and purge lines instead of the rotary valves.
Much easier to use IMO.  Are these still in production?  Does anyone
sell a similar three valve CP filler?  I would like to have source to
send people who see mine and want one like it.

Cheers!
David Sherfey
Warwick, NY


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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:35:14 -0400
From: "Steven Jones" <stjones1 at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Kit recipes; 15 gal batches; yeast starters

Greetings all;

I've been mostly lurking for a almost a year and have
learned much from the collective. I anxiously await
its arrival every morning, copy it to diskette, and read it
during lunchtime at work. Thanks to all of you for freely
sharing your wisdom, knowledge, and humor. And I'd
like to second Rick Wood's comment on how refreshing
it has been to read the HBD the last few weeks without
the B & M.

Commenting on Dave Costanza's request for feedback
on his kit recipe:
When I brewed extract kits with steeping grains, I used
the following procedure: Heat 2 qts water to 170F in a 1
gallon (or so) pot. Add the grain bag and steep for 25
minutes. During the steep, I heated 6-8 qts water in
my 5 gal boiling pot to 170F. Then I removed the grain
bag, squeeze out a little, and place it in my boiling pot
for 5 minutes to rinse out the remaining wort (a simulated
sparge). I would then add the wort from the smaller pot
to the larger, add my extracts and enough water to top it
off and begin the boil.

I always had good results getting added body & flavor
from the steeped grains, and it didn't really take any
more time - just an extra pot.


Responding to Randy Pressley on 15 gallon batches:

My first all grain batch was 5 gallons - it was the last 5
gallon batch I made for the same reasons as you. I use
1/2 bbl sanke kegs for mashing and boiling, and now
make 8 or 12 gallon batches. I only have 5 gallon carboys
for fermenting, and 4 gallons per carboy leaves enough
head space to prevent blowoff. Also, I've found that the
maximum amount of wort I can safely start the boil with
is about 14 1/2 gallons, which boils down to 12 1/2 gallons
nicely with about 1/2 gallon of spooge left in the kettle. My
homemade false bottom for the mash tun is a 10" disk of
heavy sheet SS with a 3/8" hole in the center, and about
750 3/32" holes drilled in concentric circles about 3/8" apart
both directions. I run a 3/8" copper tube horizontally from the
ball valve to the center of the tun, bent 90 degrees down thru
the 3/8" hole to just above the kettle bottom. I typically get
about 83% efficiency, and have never (knock on wood) had
a problem with stuck sparges, even though I have brewed
with as much as 40% wheat malt in a couple of batches. I
also typically sparge quickly, usually in about 20 - 30
minutes. The largest mash I've done was 32 lbs for a 12
gallon batch of oatmeal stout, and there was enough room
left to do well over 40 lbs, maybe even 50.


I have started pressure canning 1.040 wort made from DME
in quart jars to use for my yeast starters. It is handy to have
a sterile quantity of wort readilyh available, and it only takes
about an hour to can 6 qts of wort. I'd like to hear any
comments on this and my procedure for making a starter.

Making my starter:

A week before brewday I open a quart jar of wort (covered
with sanitized cheesecloth to attempt to filter the air sucked
into the jar) and pour about 4 oz into a sanitized 1 liter
ehrlenmeyer flask. I innoculate the 4 oz of wort from a slant
and shake the #$ at % out of it and seal with a sanitized
airlock. Several times a day for the next 2 days I shake it.
Then for the next 3 days, I add 4 oz wort each day and
shake again, several times a day. Two days before brewday
I place it in the fridge to settle out the yeast. The night before
brewday, I remove it from the fridge, pour off the wort, add
the remaining 12 oz of wort and shake vigorously. It is
typically at high krausen when I'm ready to pitch, and I
typically have 3-4 hour lag times. Of course, I flame the
wort jar and flask each time, and store the sealed wort jar
in the fridge. Takes 10 minutes to start, and 5 minutes
each day thereafter.

I get a tremendous amount of hot break in the canned wort.
I usually just mix it back in to provide yeast nutrient. Is this
good or bad? 

I was wondering if there would be any benefits of doing a
small mash to provide wort for making starters and then
canning it? Would this be a better wort than the DME wort?
If so, should I use just pale malt, or any specialty malts, or
even add hops? What about doing the same thing to provide
priming sugars for natural conditioning?

I welcome any comments, positive or negative? As always,
public or private responses are fine.

BTW: Sam, I'm offended. You never did welcome me when
I first posted a few months back. ^)


Steve Jones
State of Franklin Homebrewers
http://home.att.net/~stjones1


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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:49:39 -0500
From: Keith Busby <kbusby at ou.edu>
Subject: How to fix under-carbonation?

The consensus seems to be that I underprimed, although one response did
suggest that the Iodophor might be the culprit. Another person has
suggested I might rescue the beer by eye-dropping a drop of neutral (say,
Nottingham) yeast in each bottle. Would this work? It's a lot of trouble,
but it's so hot around these parts at the moment that brewing is out of the
question. Jim Layton has suggested mixing with American lager at drinking
to fizz it up.

Keith Busby


Keith Busby
George Lynn Cross Research Professor
University of Oklahoma
Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies
780 Van Vleet Oval, Room 202
Norman, OK 73019
Tel.: (405) 325-5088
Fax: (405) 325-0103


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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:51:20 EDT
From: AllDey at aol.com
Subject: RE: First Wort Hopping

Brad Johnson Queries:

>.  I would kick the FW hops and late additions up a tad next time.

Collective:  Is it stylistically appropriate to dry hop a cal common?

Paul
Cheyenne, WY 
Keeping Kool with Kolsch 


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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:47:52 -0400
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Nice to meet you

Mark Tumarkin speaks of how nice it is to meet HBD folk at different
"events".  I'll be at the Great Taste of the Midwest (best beer festival
there is) in Madison, WI on August 8th.  I'll be with the good-looking
blonde (my wife, not the beer...she insists that I go...and take her).  I
look forward to meeting any of you while I'm there.  Since it will be
difficult to know who I am, I'll be wearing my white Hop Union hat.  No
affiliation, just a gift for acting as a steward at the Big and Huge.  Oh
yeah, I'll be with the good looking blonde.  See ya there!
nathan in Madison, WI


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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:03:26 +0000
From: John Elsworth <jdelsworth at snet.net>
Subject: Old Firestone keg parts?

I have an old Firestone soda keg (with the racetrack lid) and need
some parts to keep it functioning.  William's Brewing and South Bay
Homebrew Supply have been helpful, but I cannot locate new white nylon
inserts to fit underneath the poppets inside the gas and beer connectors
on the keg.  William's had some but they didn't match the original -
they were too tall, mine are about 5/16 inch tall.  So, if anyone knows
where I could buy these inserts, or the whole stems, I would very much
appreciate it.  Thanks.
John Elsworth


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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:31:19 EDT
From: MLogan8534 at aol.com
Subject: Brew Storage Questions..

Dear Collective:

I am a newbie (3 batches so far) and pose a question..

I brewed an extract+ specialty grains nut brown ale and will be bottling this
weekend...

Can the bottled brew warm above the 75 deg I have my AC set at?
I will be out of town for a week and would prefer to turn the AC off if my
brew won't be ruined. Here in Bakersfield, CA it is not unusual to hit 100+,
but my appt shouldn't get over 90.

Here's a brief background to what has been done so far... bew was in the
primary for 4 days, then racked to secondary for 2.5 weeks...all the while
kept at ~75 deg F. I made a yeast starter using dry yeast, after pitching
activity was high 9 hrs after yeast was pitched, then slowed considerably
after 3 days. After racking activity picked up for a few days then tapered off
for the last ~11 days. 

Also, is there a time where temps can be increased above ~75 during
fermentation using an ale yeast? Or should I abstain from brewing when it is
hot and I don't want to use the AC? Are there any ale yeasts that work well at
high temp??

Thanks in advance!

Mike Logan
Bakersfield, CA


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Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:59:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Allen Senear <senear at yahoo.com>
Subject: Malt enzyme temp/pH optima


	Fred Johnson asks in HBD #2773 how it is that the enzymes in barley
that brewers use during mashing have optima for temp (and pH) that are
far different than those found in germinating barley.
	The short answer is that the activity of an enzyme is selected to be
optimal for the growth of an organism under whatever conditions it
normally grows, not for whatever bizzarre conditions inventive and
perverse beings like ourselves might subject them to.  There is,
however, nothing in either evolutionary theory or the real world that
says that things won't work better under other, unnatural conditions. 
The maximal activities that humans manage tweak out of natural enzymes
under artificial conditions, whether those of the mash tun, the
clothes washing machine or the PCR themal cycler, need have no direct
relationship to what were the optimal activities of the natural enzyme
for the growth and well-being of its organism.
	Typically enzymes approximately double their activity for every 10
degrees C in increased temperature (until they reach a critical
temperature at which they are inctivated by processees such as
disassociating into inactive components or unfolding).  Thus, for
example, the amylases are far more active at the 60-70 degree C
temperatures in our Gott coolers  or converted Sankey kegs than in the
10-20 degree C temperature that a germinating barley seedling might be
be exposed too.  But that  all makes sense.  The seedling needs only a
slow conversion of starch to sugar (and storage proteins to amino
acids, etc) over a period of many days as it slowly grows and
develops.  We, however, being creatures who are both impatient and
rightly paranoid about bacteria or other nasties infecting our wort
before we pitch our well-aerated starter culture of yeast, want the
whole job done as quickly as possible.
	Similar principles hold for pH.  The pH at which an enzyme normally
functions is not necessarily that at which it has its maximal
activity; it is simply one of the conditions to which the enzyme has
been adapted to give a level of activity that is optimal (but not
necessarily maximal) for the organism.  Anyone who has done any
biochemistry or molecular biology has had experience with a set of
enzymes that all function together in the same intra-cellular
compartment, but vary markedly in their optimal conditions for pH,
temperature, salt concentration, divalent cation requirements, ect. 
Different enzymes involved in mashing also have different pH maxima;
the "optimal" pH for mashing is a balance of many different factors.
	As for your final question  (And/or did God give these plants these
enzymes so that man could enjoy beer (and brewing)?), perhaps you
should invite her over for a homebrew and ask her, then report back to
HBD.

***

	On a personal note, my first all-grain brew is now fermenting (batch
# 12 overall).  Thank you all for the enormous amount of advice you
have (indirectly) given me through HBD.  Not only did the mash seem to
go pretty well (a few minor bugs to work out, but I learn something
new every time down the river), but I actually felt like I understood
not only what I was doing, but why I was doing it.

Allen Senear
Big Water Brewing 
Brewing in Seattle and Rafting in the Northwest 






_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:03:21 -0400
From: Garrett Pelton <Garrett_Pelton at alectro.soar.cs.cmu.edu>
Subject: Hop ice cream

Slightly off the subject of brewing, but maybe not
recycling brewing by-products.

My wife and I were eating dinner with a friend last night, and 
she mentioned that one of the local brewpubs had a recipe for
HOP ice cream. This was the best ice cream she ever ate.

Does anyone have such a recipe? Does it use new or slightly used
hops?

Thanks Gary



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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 23:20:36 +0930
From: "Brad McMahon" <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: IPA's

Eric wrote:

>It seems to me that the few British IPAs that I have 
>had here in the US are very mild compared to the style
>guidelines.  Is the classic style much different than what
>is available today? 

Yes it is.
Most IPA's I've encountered in Britain and going by
brewery copy recipes as well, are nothing more than
late hopped pale ales. The starting gravities tend
to be around the 1.040 mark and are not particularly
bitter but have a wonderfully strong flavour & aroma.
Great beers, but not _really_ IPA's.

> If anyone has any suggestions, I am going to be in
> London the night of August 15th.  If there is a pub that I
> can visit to ease my doubts, let me know.

Depends where you are in London!
I really loved the JW Wetherspoon chain of pubs.
They are well appointed, no music, good food and more
importantly cheap real ales!
If you want a list of them I have a flyer somewhere
with them listed, just let me know where you are staying.
Else you could try the Firkin chain of pubs denoted by
the "& Firkin" in the pub name. Not as cheap but the beers
are brewed on premises from memory. You may not
get IPA's but I'm sure you will have fun looking for them.
Just try & find  a pub with lots of real ales and go mad!

Have a firkin good time,

Brad


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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:55:05 -0500
From: "Joel Plutchak" <joel at bolt.atmos.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Queen of Beer (HBD #2774)

Sam Mize says:
>Charley Burns posted an announcement for the "Queen of Beer" competition.
 ...
>Perhaps this competition will raise the visibility of women in brewing,
>and that's good.  There's a stereotype of this being a "man's" hobby -- at
>the moment, that's demographically true, but there's no inherent reason
>for it.
>
>On the other hand, I'd hate to see a lot of "women-only" contests, or
>"women's" sections in regular brewing contests.  This would suggest (to
>some) that women can't do as well, and need their own category to win at
>all -- like in female weightlifting or women's track and field, where the
>genetic differences actually DO make a difference.

   I just discussed this with my wife (who I brewed with in the
early days, and occasionally still joins me for a brew session).
Basically, we're both leery of the idea for the reason you cite.
I can understand the genetically-linked differentiations, or
even the socially-linked events such as a women-only backpacking
or rafting trip.  But a beer competition consists of blind
judging.  Period.  The beer judge has absolutely no idea whether
the brewer is male or female, black, white, or purple, dresses
in drag, is handicapped, etc.  A homebrew competition provides
a very level playing field.
   (I *can* understand a competition aimed at new brewers who
may feel overwhelmed by the experience, but men have to be novice
brewers at some point, too.)
- --
Joel "Some of my best friends are female" P. ;-)


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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:07:30 -0400
From: MAB <mabrooks at erols.com>
Subject: Pure O2

>"Robert C. Sprecher, M.D." wrote
>Subject: How long to aerate with pure O2?

Dr. Sprecher asks how long he should oxygenate his cooled wort before 
pitching yeast. There is more dissolved O2 in cooled wort then 
homebrewers might think.  From some preliminary O2 tests (with an Orion 
Dissolved Oxygen Probe #970899), my brewing partner and I have found 
that cooled wort (ie. 65-70 deg. F) has ~7-8 mg/l dissolved O2 using our 
aeration procedure which is really quite simple...-->  We position the 
end of our counterflow wort chiller tubing at the top of our 15.5 gal 
covered primary fermenter so there is a free fall to the bottom of the 
fermenter, we also occasionally stir the wort vigorously with a large 
(sterilized) spoon during the filling process and after we pitch the 
yeast.

Since the maximum solubility (at sea level) of O2 in water at 70 deg. is 
~9.0 mg/l & ~9.5 mg/l at 65 deg. (anything above this is supersaturated 
with O2 and O2 will tend to move out of solution until equilibrium is 
established) there is really no reason to try to achieve a higher value 
than those above.  The use of O2 for homebrewing is not really necessary 
if a proper oxygenation procedure is followed, it is probably not 
harmful if done properly but I would not spend the extra money on the 
setup, rather I would recommend establishing an effective oxygenation 
procedure as we have done.  It is also imperative to use a healthy dose 
of good yeast when pitching.  We are fortunate in that we have two 
fairly large local brewery's that generously donate yeast and all we 
have to do is call before we show up (three different strains to choose 
from and no smack pack cost or yeast starters to contend with).  We 
pitch ~3/4 to 1 cup (~5-8 oz.) of thick fresh yeast slurry per 10-11 
gal. batch. This really makes the difference for a fast starting, 
vigorous fermentation.

To summarize:  Oxygenating wort with pure O2 is probably best left to 
the large scale brewers who need the extra O2 due to transfer piping and 
sealed containers that dont allow the just chilled wort to become fully 
saturated with O2 before they pitch 100-150 pounds of yeast to get a 
fermentation going. These brewers also transfer their yeast from 
fermenter to fermenter (via pumps and tubing) and hence dont have the 
means to establish a yeast "re-oxygenation" procedure (ie. we always 
pour some cooled wort into the yeast jar and shake vigorously every 5-10 
minutes (while the wort is transfering to the primary). Large brewers 
need to worry about keeping their yeast healthy for multiple pitchings 
and Pure O2 is one of the methods used for this.

If you still think you must use pure O2 the I would use just a 
couple/few minutes of measured (l/min) O2 into the cooled wort with a 
air stone.  A must have item for using Pure O2 is a gas flow meter so 
you can determine the best flow rate per unit time as you try to 
establish a proper oxygenation procedure for your particular setup (ie. 
4 liters O2 per minute for 3 minutes gave this result vs. 6 liters O2 
per minute for 3 mintues gave that result).

Matt Brooks
Northern VA.


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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:19:41 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: So fill that 'meister!

From: "Rosenzweig,Steve" <Steve_Rosenzweig at wb.xerox.com>

> I suppose the best thing to do for the 
> efficiency of the 'meister is to fill another corny up with cold 
> water, maybe even drop some ice in it, seal it up, and put it in the 
> fourth position.  That way the thermal mass of the fourth corny, being

> better than that of the air that would otherwise occupy that space, 
> will cause the 'meister to cycle less often, hopefully saving life in 
> my compressor.

It makes sense for an entirely different reason.  I observed a
professional/homebrewer at work and he had planed ahead and had several
corny's full of water at 32f.  When it came time to chill the wort, he
poured this water onto the ice bucket and had much more efficient ice
usage.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 10:28:45 -0500
From: nie1kwh at ismd.ups.com
Subject: re: Moving full carboys


     Bill Goodman wrote:
     
     >A few more questions for the HBD:
     
     >1.  Can anyone recommend some safety pointers regarding moving
     >    full 5-gallon carboys?  Has anyone here built gadgets to
     >    make moving them easier and safer?  I've been very concerned
     >    about brewing safety after reading a number of postings
     >    either here or to rec.crafts.brewing about hospital
     >    emergency room visits due to cuts from broken carboys (not
     >    to mention burns from wort chiller effluent!).  I had been
     >    lugging full carboys around with one of those orange carboy
     >    handles, and am probably quite lucky that the necks didn't
     >    snap right off...makes me wonder if I should replace the
     >    carboys I have...
     <snip>
     
     Very good question.  Several people have built boxes with casters 
     for rolling carboys around.  Some people also use milk crates.  
     Either of these methods will help.  I feel the biggest risk area 
     is carrying a full carboy down a flight of stairs (e.g. 
     fermenting in a basement for favorable temp, etc.).  People have 
     been using carboy handles for years, and they will be quick to 
     tell you they have never damaged a carboy.  I'm sure this is 
     true, but I cringe when I think about the stress points it puts 
     on the neck area.  There are strap and/or bag carriers advertised 
     in the back of brewing magazines, and I think this is the best 
     way to go.  You could probably make something similar for a lot 
     less money.  I just try to avoid stairs and any unnecessary 
     lifting as much as possible.  Also, be *very* careful when 
     lifting full carboys when your hand are wet.  Bleach and other 
     cleaners make your hands very slippery.
     
     Poorly designed chillers are another problem.  I've seen many 
     cheaply made chillers with vinyl tubing just slipped over the end 
     of the copper coil.  Again, people may tell you that it always 
     works great for them.  Maybe so, but using a better connector is 
     cheap, and good insurance.  By the way, the worst burn I ever had 
     was putting freshly carmelized sugar into the boil.  Of course it 
     erupted all over my hands!
     
     Next point -- I've been using the same bottles, batch after 
     batch, for well over ten years.  Some day, the cumulative stress 
     on these bottles will catch up to me, and one will break when I 
     try to cap it.  How many of us hold the bottle with our bare hand 
     when we use a bench capper?
     
     Safety soapbox dismounted....for now!
     
     Kirk Harralson
     Bel Air, Maryland




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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:37:19 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: chlorine attacking stainless

"philgro" writes

    philgro> I've soaked beer kegs dozens of time for several days.Are
    philgro> they pitted?Full of holes?
    philgro> Hell no!

As a counter example, I present this extract from a 1994 posting.  The
author's name has been removed to prevent further embarrassment.

    anon> I stupidly left about 1/2 cup of bleach mixed with about 1
    anon> gallon water stand in my Cornelius keg for a month or so
    anon> (under CO2 pressure no less).  The corrosive environment
    anon> with -lots- of contact time DID perforate the stainless
    anon> steel so now I can shoot a very fine stream out of my keg
    anon> about 15 feet! Not cool.

Unfortunately, negative anecdotal "evidence" is often worthless.  

	She: What's that funny hat for?
	He: It's my elephant repellent!
	She: Are you sure it works?
	He: It must, I've never been attacked by an elephant while I'm
	    wearing it!

=Spencer


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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998  9:48 -0600
From: "Lou Heavner" <lheavner at tcmail.frco.com>
Subject: re: carboy safety

     Greetings:
     
     From: Bill Goodman <goodman at APWK01G1.nws.noaa.gov>
     
     1.  Can anyone recommend some safety pointers regarding moving
         full 5-gallon carboys?  Has anyone here built gadgets to
         make moving them easier and safer?  I've been very concerned
         about brewing safety after reading a number of postings
         either here or to rec.crafts.brewing about hospital
         emergency room visits due to cuts from broken carboys (not
         to mention burns from wort chiller effluent!).  I had been
         lugging full carboys around with one of those orange carboy
         handles, and am probably quite lucky that the necks didn't
         snap right off...makes me wonder if I should replace the
         carboys I have...
     
     
     
     This is based more on common sense (I hope) than scientific fact.  
     When I bought my carboy it came in a cardboard box.  It only comes out 
     of the box for cleaning.  I'm a devoted plastic pail kinda guy, and 
     only use glass carboys as a secondary/lagering vessel when I lager.  I 
     believe they make carboy carriers or slings.  I use a nylon mesh bag 
     with reinforced handles to carry a carboy when I have to move it while 
     it is full.  Just remember to put the carboy in the box in the bag 
     before you fill it up.  Makes life easier.  I also use the carboy 
     handle on the neck, but it scares me to rely on it alone. especially 
     when the carboy is filled.  If you must be able to view the carboy and 
     the goods within, I suppose you could cut some flaps in the cardboard.
     
     I only started lagering fairly recently.  If I had started sooner, I 
     would have availed myself of the foam in place eqipment we used to use 
     at work until it became environmentally objectionable.  That would 
     have really helped slow the rate of temperature drop in the carboy 
     when going from fermentation to lagering as well as better protecting 
     the glass inside.
     
     Recently somebody mentioned that they dropped a carboy but it didn't 
     break, just bounced.  I'd consider that carboy suspect!  If I were 
     going to use it, I'd wrap it in tape to control shattering if and when 
     it does finally crack due to some future thermal or physical shock.
     
     Just like when dealing with dealing with 120 or 240 VAC, you probably 
     can't be too careful when working with glass carboys.  Besides, the 
     net bag cost less at Target than a carboy handle, the box came with 
     the carboy at no charge, and tape is cheap.
     
     Cheers!
     
     Lou Heavner - Austin, TX  where the high today is only forecast to be 
     98 DegF but it is already 82 DegF at 9:30am.
     
     
     


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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:15:15 +0000
From: "Tidmarsh Major" <tidmarsh at pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: 5 gallin All Grain -> 10 gallon batch.

Lord Frederic Badger asks if he can brew 10 gal full-mash batches 
using a 5 gal mashtun.  Sadly, no.  I've seen a rule of thumb 
somewhere that one's mashtun should be the same volume as one's 
boiler, which seems a pretty good estimate, though a mashtun the size 
of one's batches will work for beers up to about 1.070.

For this example, a 5-gal cooler will hold at max about 12 lbs of 
grain. at 28 pts/lb/gal, that's 1.067 for 5 gal and 1.033 or so for 
10 gal.  You'll need to either fortify with extract or look for a 
10-gal cooler to get 10 gallon batches not of "Bud Lite strength."
Or, to allow the most flexibility, get another converted keg for a 
mashtun to have room for a barleywine, should you desire.

Cheers,

Tidmarsh Major, Birmingham, Alabama
tidmarsh at mindspring.com
"Bot we must drynk as we brew,
   And that is bot reson."
    -The Wakefield Master, Second Shepherds' Play


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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:35:37 -0400
From: Rick Theiner <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Lagering

Rob Scala Asks:
>
>I have just finished bottling my first lager, a pilsner.
>My question in this, do I have to store the bottles at 
>room temp. before putting them in the 'fridge,
>or should I just put them in now.  

After bottling, put them back in your lagering fridge at 42 or so and
hold them for a couple of weeks.  Then slowly decrease the temp over the
next few days down to 32.  I've found that when doing this with kegs, I
get a really clean product after about 4 weeks, and they just keep
getting better from there.


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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:46:06 -0400
From: Rick Theiner <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Chlorine and stainless

>Though it may be a fact that chlorine CAN attack stainless,in real 
>life,it ain't worth worrying about,especially if were just talking 
>about an oz or 2 of bleach.

I'll go the other route-- because it is a fact that chlorine may attack
stainless (how severely, if it all, depends on the grade of stainless
and the strength of your chlorine solution, of course), I simply don't
use it.  There are plenty of products out there which provide better
overall results than chlorine bleach for a number of reasons (safer,
less likely to damage your clothing, environmentally sound, etc.).

But if you (meaning anyone) prefers to use chlorine bleach, that is
certainly your choice.  But one thing:

>My local supplier even said he would never use 
>chlorine in minikegs (which as most of you know,aren't even naked 
>metal!).

Don't do this!  The lining is a polymer which is susceptible to attack
by the chlorine.  The lining will be eaten first, then the metal itself
will be attacked over time by the acids in the beer.  A member of our
local club started off brewing great light beers that just started
getting worse and worse.  It wasn't until it tasted like we were tasting
tinfoil that someone realized what Curtis was doing-- sanitizing his
mini-kegs with chlorine.

BTW-- I better put this in-- My company manufactures an alternative to
chlorine bleach, but I am not intending to endorse it here (just in case
someone takes the wrong impression from this post).


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