---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Pyrex Carboys ("Kris Jacobs")
  The Saisons Keep Rolling Along (Samuel Mize)
  HBD 2774 Post ("Buchanan, Robert")
  RE: Saison ("Tomusiak, Mark")
  Grammar Police (James Tomlinson)
  Female Brewers ("Buchanan, Robert")
  Queen of Beer/Chlorine and Stainless Steel ("Gregory A. Lorton")
  Any advantage/problem with Live Hops? ("Steven J. Owens")
  re: How long to aerate with pure O2? (John_E_Schnupp)
  Going To Ohio (bob_poirier)
  Thoughts 1 (Jim Liddil)
  Thoughts 2 (Jim Liddil)
  more on CPBF ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Off the subject (JGORMAN)
  Re: Hop ice cream (ale)
  Re: Grist %, one more time (Tuula Pietila & Timo Jukka)
  Breweries!  12th Annual Great Taste of the Midwest<sm> (fwd) (Robert Paolino)
  fermenting in SS cornies (Steven Gibbs)
  Monthly Beers (HomBrwer)
  re:re:FWH (AllDey)
  Need IPA recipe ("Mark Pratt")
  re: yeast starters (NAZELROD)


Sunday Digest courtesy of a 3-day queue...


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:18:29 +0000
From: "Kris Jacobs" <jtsnake at net-link.net>
Subject: Pyrex Carboys

Does anyone know of a good source for these, the "holy grail" of 
carboy-dom?  A local friend of mine has a couple, and it's AMAZING to 
see hot wort go straight from the boiling kettle into a glass vessel 
sitting in a tub full of ice water.

Think of the the implications this would have on sanitation -- 
boiling wort goes into a clean vessel that it sanitizes upon 
entrance, vessel can be air locked up and cooled at liesure without 
worry of infection, no coils of copper and/or garden hose to worry 
about, etc...

First time I saw it I thought, "I gotta get me a couple of THOSE!"


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:36:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Samuel Mize <smize at mail.imagin.net>
Subject: The Saisons Keep Rolling Along

More on Saison:

One HBD message said that Saison is a wheat style, but nobody else
seems to agree with that.  A more authoritative reference says it's
all malt.

Here are extracts from the references I've found.

HBvI (1) says it's light colored ale, effervescent, tart, lots of fruit
and clove aroma from the yeast.  Often hoppy, dryhopped with English or
German style hops, sometimes spiced.  Sweetish (not Swedish) with a dry
finish.  OG 1.045 - 1.080, ABV 4.3 - 7.8, bitterness 20 - 45 IBUs.

TNCJOHB (2) says it has "a unique Belgian fruitiness and pungent sourness,
accented with aroma hops."  "Distinctively bitter but not assertive."  OG
1.052 - 1.080, alcohol 5.5 - 7.5, bitterness 25 - 40 IBUs.

A BJCP exam study guide (3) says they are lighter (relatively) beers "from
the French part of Belgium (Wallonia) and are made for summer/harvest
drinking.  Saisons have been around for at least 200 years."  Ale (top
fermented), all malt including crystal, some spices.  "Lots of aging in
tanks at room temperature, in the bottle, and some are cold-conditioned.
Interesting, complex yeast cultures are used."

References:

(1) Homebrewing vol I, Al Korzonas (no affiliyada, but occasional emails).
>From http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ or better homebrew suppliers.

(2) The New Complete Joy of Home Brewing, Charlie Papazian (no affiliyada,
not even an AHA member (me, not Charlie)).  From bookstores, the AHA,
better homebrew suppliers, crummy ones, remaindered book dealers (1/2 off).

(3) Beer Judge Certification Exam Study Guide, Gregory J. Walz (no
affiliyada, I don't even know this guy).  Out on the web somewhere, I
think it's at the brewery web site http://www.brewery.org.

(4) I didn't do it.  Nobody saw me do it.  You can't prove I did it.

Best,
Sam Mize

- -- 
Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada
Fight Spam: see http://www.cauce.org/ \\\ Smert Spamonam


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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:05:41 -0400
From: "Buchanan, Robert" <RBuchanan at ChristianaCare.org>
Subject: HBD 2774 Post

Bill Goodman asks in 2774 
1. Can anyone recommend some safety pointers regarding moving
    full 5-gallon carboys?  Has anyone here built gadgets to
    make moving them easier and safer? 

	I use the "milk carton" support method.  My 5 & 7 gallon carboys fit
quite nicely in an 	empty milk jug crate from the local convenience
store. Built in handles for two handed 	support.
2. Is the 3/8" ID clear vinyl tubing available at Home Depot
    considered to be "food grade"?

	If it don't say it it ain't.

3. I do my brewing on an electric stove.  I had been using a
    wire trivet underneath the brewpot to prevent wort
    scorching, but get slow, weak boils due to less direct
    contact with the heating element.  What can I use to get
    better contact with the element, yet avoid scorching?

	When I use my stove-top element the pot goes directly on the
element.  I also don't 	use the "HI" setting.  If you are extract brewing
turn down the element to "MED" or so, 	add the extract, mix well, and bring
the element back up to your desired setting.  	Stirring frequently also
helps prevent scorching. This is a tricky balance but I've found 	that
the "HI" setting is just a bit too much and have scorched some beers this
way. I 	can attain a fairly decent rolling boil with the top of the "Med-HI"
setting without scorch.

	Hope this helps. 
Bob Buchanan
"Women and cats will do as they please and men
>     and dogs should relax and get used to the idea"
> 


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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:26:07 -0700
From: "Tomusiak, Mark" <tomusiak at amgen.com>
Subject: RE: Saison

J Gorman asks about Saisons.  Saisons are a relatively obscure variety
of bottle-conditioned Belgian ale typically from the region of Wallonia,
often referred to as being "farmhouse ales".  There are a couple of
commercial examples available in the US, with Saison Dupont being the
most common and Saison Pipaix and Saison Silly being occasionally
available.  The Saison style appears to be a very loose one -  there is
a considerable difference between all the beers I just mentioned, and it
is hard to develop a narrow definition of the style.  My preference
falls towards Dupont's beers, which are pale, strong beers with a
substantial hop presence (unusual for Belgian beers), a dry finish (I
measured the terminal gravity of a Dupont beer at 1.007), and a lot of
fresh, lively character from the yeast (drinking note:  excellent for
summer consumption!). 

Some Saisons are spiced (like Pipaix), and when I have encountered
microbrewed versions of this style in the US they are typically
medium-bodied, orange-amber ales which have been spiced with coriander
and anise seed (amongst other things).  I have been trying to brew
Dupont-like beers for years with varying degrees of success.  As usual
with brewing Belgian styles, yeast selection is critical - I would
suggest the Saison strain available from Brewer's Resource (which is an
unpredictable and vigorous top fermentor, just when you think it's done
it tries to crawl out of the carboy again...), or culturing the yeast
from a bottle of Saison Dupont.  Hope this helps, Mark Tomusiak.


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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:50:34 -0400
From: James Tomlinson <red_beards at compuserve.com>
Subject: Grammar Police

IN HBD2770, "Buchanan, Robert" <RBuchanan at ChristianaCare.org> of the
Grammar police hammered me for not proof reading my post, close enough.

In the immortal words of Steve Martin: "Well, E X C U Z Z Z Z E ..... M
E E E E !"

- --
James Tomlinson

Give a man a beer, and he wastes an hour.
But teach a man how to brew, and he wastes a lifetime!
Muddy Waters Brewery






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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:20:34 -0400
From: "Buchanan, Robert" <RBuchanan at ChristianaCare.org>
Subject: Female Brewers

Historically brewers were female.  It was only when beer became a
profitable, transportable item did the male "take" over the brewerery. Ceres
was the ancient Roman goddess of the harvest and her symbols were a sheaf of
barley and fruits of the harvest.  When our civilization was still in the
hunter-gatherer stage who do you think stayed close to the village and did
the brewing while the "men-folk" were out hunting ? I agree with Joel's post
in 2775 about splitting off "women-only" events. Brewing is an art form that
knows no gender specifics. My wife is my able-bodied assistant during my
brewsessions and I value her opinions and ideas for improving my beer. Now I
have to get his and hers matching brewpots.

Bob Buchanan
"There are TWO rules for success in Life:
Rule 1: Don't tell people everything you know."



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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:27:55 -0700
From: "Gregory A. Lorton" <glorton at cts.com>
Subject: Queen of Beer/Chlorine and Stainless Steel

Feelin' the need to vent...

About the Queen of Beer competition...

Have the PC (politically correct) police and equal opportunity lawyers
arrived at HBD?  Following the announcement of the Queen of Beer
competition, I get the feeling that there are people out there wringing
their hands about whether it's fair to have a women-only competition or
whether it's just an easy way to let some women win some brewing awards.

Come on!  If someone wants to organize a women-only beer competition,
that's great!  If someone wants to organize a competition for men who brew
in plaid boxer shorts, that's OK, too!  There are plenty of AHA-sanctioned
competitions that are open only to residents of certain states (e.g., Ohio
State Fair or the Buffalo County Fair in Nebraska).  That's not because the
residents of those states are naturally inferior brewers and that's the
only way that they'll get ribbons.  Hey, homebrewing is a hobby, and these
competitions are a fun and varied way of supporting the hobby.

Look at it the QOB this way.  Homebrewing is still a male-dominated hobby. 
The Queen of Beer provides a great incentive for women to experience the
hobby.  Like Joel Plutchak and his wife, I do most of the brewing, and my
wife Liz usually helps out (overseeing boiling, taking the blame for
boilovers, helping with pitching, etc.).  Last year we read the
announcement for the 4th QOB, and Liz took it as an opportunity to jump
into homebrewing with both feet. We talked about the brewing process
beforehand, but she did the whole thing herself, beginning with recipe
selection all the way through bottling (according to the rules!).  She even
got a ribbon out of it.  (It was a damn good tripel!)  Another member of
our homebrew club (Kari Niebell) also brewed her first batch of beer just
to enter the contest.  Kari's beer went on to win the BOS for our club's
Oktoberfest picnic.  Liz is looking forward to this year's contest, and
she's got the ingredients for her Belgian Strong Dark Ale and will be
brewing shortly.  Our club is looking for an even greater participation
this year.

Nora Seeley is to be congratulated for her efforts to open up homebrewing
to women.  A number of last year's QOB award winners are NHC second-round
participants this year.  Look at the QOB as an effort to expand the hobby. 
Let your wife (or significant other) borrow the equipment for the weekend!

* * * * * * *

About chlorine and stainless steel...

- ---Chlorine and bleach are absolutely safe with your stainless steel pots
and corny kegs.---

For sale - Corny kegs $100 each, call...
(JUST KIDDING!)

Chlorine and chlorine compounds are notorious for their corrosion of mild
and stainless steel.  Along with other references, Perry's Chemical
Engineers Handbook (6th edition, page 23-40) specifically warns that
chloride ions rapidly attack and destroy the oxide layer on austenitic
stainless steels, and once the oxide layer is out of the way, cause pitting
and crevice corrosion.  This can then lead to stress-corrosion cracking. 
Hypochlorite ions produce the same effect.  (Household bleach is a mixture
of sodium chloride and sodium hypochlorite in water.)

Admittedly, a low concentration of bleach in water in a keg for a short
period of time will do little or no damage, but the longer it sits (and the
higher the concentration) the more damage is likely.  Corrosion rates can
exceed 0.05 inches per year for chlorides in stainless under certain
conditions.  Look at it as Russian roulette for your keg.  This is bad news
(unless your in the business of selling new corny kegs and stainless steel
pots).  Also, you have to make sure you rinse well, not just to get rid of
the bleach (which will lead to a bunch of interesting chlorophenolic
flavors), but to also get rid of the iron that's dissolved (which has it's
own interesting set of flavors that can destroy an otherwise good beer).

Kind of hoping a professional metallurgist (John Palmer?) can provide some
more info on this.

Greg Lorton
Carlsbad, CA
Quality Ale and Fermentation Fraternity (San Diego)


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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:15:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff at netcom.com>
Subject: Any advantage/problem with Live Hops?

Folks,

     Yesterday a friend told me he had acquired for me a couple hops
plants and the recent harvest of hops.  I have no idea whether this is
a good or a bad thing, compared to using the hops pellets from the
homebrew supply store.

Steven J. Owens
puff at netcom.com
puff at rt1.net


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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:57:02 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: How long to aerate with pure O2?

>We position the
>end of our counterflow wort chiller tubing at the top of our 15.5 gal
>covered primary fermenter so there is a free fall to the bottom of the
>fermenter, we also occasionally stir the wort vigorously with a large
>(sterilized) spoon during the filling process and after we pitch the
>yeast.

My method is slight different.  I keep my carboys filled with an
iodaphor solution.  On brew day I empty the carboy using CO2.  I
elevate the carboy (on a chair) and use a carboy cap.  One hole
is the liquid out with a racking cane and the other is the CO2 in.
I use a very low CO2 flow, just enough to keep the siphon going.

I now have the iodaphor I need for brewing, the carboy is empty and
purged with CO2.  I put a solid stopped in the carboy after it's empty.

This means there is no O2 or air in the carboy.  Plus I use an
immersion chiller.  I empty the pot with a valve at the bottom, to
which I have a 2 foot length of 3/8" copper tubing.  At the end of the
tubing (in the carboy).  I raped an old lighter and removed the small
gas jet from it.  I drilled a small hole in the copper to accept the
gas jet and soldered it in place (non-lead, sliver solder).  I use
a small aquarium pump (with HEPA disk filter) and some 1/8" OD poly
tubing to attach the pump to the gas jet.  Works great for me.
I felt it was better to go this route as it would ease my mind about
possible contamination issues.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:06:51 -0600
From: bob_poirier at adc.com
Subject: Going To Ohio

        Greetings!!
     
        I'm taking advice from Mark Tumarkin, as posted in HBD #2771, about 
     trying to get together with other HBD'ers!!
     
        I'll be driving the whole family to Eaton, Ohio, later this summer, 
     and I'd love to be able to meet & greet any and all fellow subscribers 
     once I get there!!
        Eaton, OH, is VERY close to the Indiana border, about 10 miles east 
     of Richmond, IN, about 75 miles east of Indianapolis, IN, and, about 
     60 miles west of Dayton, OH.
        If I'm within (reasonable) driving distance to any of you, please 
     respond via private e-mail, and maybe we can get together and swap 
     some home brew & stories!!
     
        See Ya!
     
        Brew On & Prosit!!
     
        Bob P., East Haven, CT
        Home of Bubba's Bodaceous Basement Brewery
        bob_poirier at adc.com ( at work) OR bpoirierjr at worldnet.att.net ( at home)



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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:24:55 +0000
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu>
Subject: Thoughts 1

Al wrote: 
>George also writes: 
> The Kubessa process is a mashing technique where the husks are 
> separated from the rest of the grist and not added to the mash until 
> just before vorlauf (recirculation). The goal of this is to minimize 
> the amount of grain phenols that get into the wort. 
> 
> Kunze talks about this process a bit (a really small bit) in 
> _Technology Brewing and Malting_, and says that it is seldom used. 
> 
> Why is it seldom used? Sounds like a good idea. If you were using a 
> mash filter, you would not need the husks at all. Is this done? 
> 
>Does Kunze specifically say this is to minimize phenols? If not, where did 
>you read that? In Malting and Brewing Science (Hough, et al), there is 
>a table that shows polyphenol levels are very similar for wort made 
>from regular and dehusked barley. I believe Steve Alexander posted 
>a few months ago how most of the polyphenols are elsewhere in the barley 
>corn, not in the husk. That table in MBS does, however, show that 
>silicate levels are much lower in wort made from dehusked barley.
In a big brewery with a six roller mill you can seperate the various malt 
fractions. Do they do this? Not at Miller, AB, Coors or Molsons. Coors is 
the 
only one of this group using mash filters, which are great in concept but 
apparently less than ideal in real world use. These guys are running a 
minimum 
of 8 brews/day, 7 days a week. For them the mashtun and lauter tun setup is 
what they use. Seperating the grist is not being done. Miller for example is 
using the latest Huppman lautertuns. These things are computer controlled 
multirack affairs. The extract is constantly monitored for extract as well as 
pH. Also the big guys are running at 95% efficiency. Using these 
methodologies they control polyphenols very well. Kunze has a pretty good 
description of these mashtuns. Also the big guys run the mash agitator during 
the entire mash schedule. And during lautering the mash racks are run 
constantly. The mash tuns have racks that can be lower into the mash slowly 
overtime via feedback from the computer that is monitoring the extract etc. 
> 
>As a quick footnote, the kilning schedules for ALL the different malts 
> in Kunze's _Technology Brewing and Malting_ utilize a rest at 122F 
> (50C) while the malt is still fairly moist. This further supports my 
> preaching that protein rests are unnecessary in modern malts. Not 
> only is the acrospire allowed to grow to almost the length of the 
> kernel, but they then rest the green malt right in the middle of the 
> proteolytic temperature range. It is indeed well modified (yes, even 
> the pils malts).
George read Kunze more carefully. Note that it is suggested that the 
acrospire 
be only 1/2- 3/4. Also remember that in Europe the energy cost are much 
higher. So it was suggested to me by more than one instructor that german 
malts really are somewhat undermodifed as compared to the US versions. Paul 
went on about how the German Brewing schools still teach malters to 
undermodify 
to some extent. it's a matter of economics. Now before someone starts in 
with 
malt analysis numbers let me ask that you provide a complete malt analysis
for 
a specific lot. I asked for this info on Wyermann malt and got an abreviated 
analysis which does not give one all the numbers one needs to make a true 
evaluation of the malt. And no I don't want a "typical" analysis since these 
numbers represent what the maltster wants his malt to be.



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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:25:30 +0000
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu>
Subject: Thoughts 2

>Here is the company analysis for Alexander's Pale Malt: 
> 
>Extract: 80.0 
>pH, 10% Sol. 5.24 
>iodine reaction Neg 
>Color (SRM), 10% Sol. 2.2 
>Iron, ppm, 10% Sol. 0.10 
>Nitrogen, %, 10% Sol. 0.065 
>Acidity, % Lactic Acid 0.94 
>Reducing Sugar, % Anhydrous 
>Maltose, 10% Sol. 4.60 
>FAN, ppm, 10% Sol. 128
Whats wrong here? The FAN is only 128 it should be 150 or more like 175. You 
are asking for problems with low FAN wrt to proper fermentation.

Steve Alexander wrote: 
>The Irish Moss question - After using IM religiously for a few years I 
>experimented not using it. I found that *usually* IM makes no difference 
in the 
>final clarity of my beers. My impression too is that IM may cause some few 
>beers to clear sooner than they would otherwise, but I have doubts that it 
>prevents permanent haze. I've pretty much stopped using it.
The general view at Siebels is that IM is a bandaid. If you have a good 
kettle 
boil then IM really is not necessary. More extra junk in the process. FWIW 
Siebels is two companies, one that does the instructing and one that sells 
products like IM and yeast nutrient (expensive CO2 nucleation site producer)

WRT to oxidation I asked about what things make the bggest impact on 
getting a good final product. First off make sure you get brilliant wort 
out of the mash tun. Excessive lipids can lead to all kinds of problems. 
Next make sure you get a vigorous boil. One of the instructors at Siebels 
went on about this at great lengths when I asked about Irish Moss. He 
viewed it as a band aid approach for poor brewhouse techniques. In his 
experince of brewing millions of barrels of beer he saw no need what so 
ever. After making sure you have these two things covered. Then you can 
worry about HSA. And if you bottle HSA goes way to the bottom of the list 
becasue you need a really good low oxygen bottler more than you need to 
worry about HSA. An important thing to remember is that beer should only 
foam once and that is in the glass.
Goerge Depiro wrote: 
>Some folks may argue that whole hops are less processed and more 
> natural, etc., but I prefer to choose my ingredients because of 
> freshness and quality rather than philosophical ideals. If you can 
> get fresh, whole hops, feel free (and lucky!) to use them. Don't 
> choose your ingredients for the wrong reasons, though.
I asked Klaus Zastrow about FWH and pellets etc. I'm shooting from memory but 
he said that FWH works because the oxidized aromatic compounds from hosp are 
what remain in the beer. Adding hops early in the boil promotes this 
oxidation. The pelletizing process also oxidizes the compounds and thus 
pellets can provide more aromatics than do whole hops. but the bottom line is 
does the beer you make by what ever process taste good to you?
>From: "Chuck Bernard" <bernardch at mindspring.com> 
>Subject: Malts and conversion times 
> 
>While browsing some of the maltsters web sites (Schreier, DWC & Weissheimer) 
>I found "generic" malt specs that listed "conversion times" for various 
>malts. Many of these times were in the 15 - 25 minute range, with a few 
>malts listed as having a 5 minute conversion time. The web sites for 
>reference are: 
> 
>Schreier: http://schreiermalt.com/maltanal_s.html 
>DWC: http://schreiermalt.com/maltanal_d.html 
>Weissheimer: http://www.weissheimer.de/enspez.htm (note .htm, not .html) 
> 
>Granted these specs are "generic" but does this mean that the mash is fully 
>converted within the time ranges listed. Anyone have a clue?
generic is right. These are typical numbers, meaning what the maltster wants 
his malt to look like not what it is. Meaningless.

Steve alexander wrote: 
>>[...] As for clarity of the finished product, I 
>>find that removing the fermenting wort off from the cold break is just 
>>as important as the amount of hot break left in the kettle. 
>>[...] I also find that this method produces a 
>>cleaner tasting beer. I suspect it also may help remove potential 
>>nutrient for spoiling organisms. Any comments on this last point? 
> 
>Removing cold break is widely held to produce beers with cleaner 
>flavor. I certainly agree with this. I don't believe that using IM or 
>cold break removal can seriously be considered as an infection 
>preventative. Removing excess fatty acids in the break, beyond the 
>amount that your yeast can consume is a good thing in that it removes
Guess what the majority of the big brewers do not remove coldbreak. I asked 
the people at Siebels from Miller, Molson and Amstel and they do not remove 
it. 
Niether does Coors. If these light lagers can get away with leaving the cold 
break I really don't think it matters to us either. But do what you want. You 
are better off removing the fatty acids on the front end. This means 
getting a 
brilliant wort run off from the lautertun. 
Other notes of interest. the folks at Siebel use the Clinitest in the pilot 
brewery. I aksed about measruing pH of mash and wort. The ASBC method for 
wort is at 20 C. There is not an ASBC method for mash. The instructors at 
Siebels said measure the mash and wort pH at room temp and this shoulbe be
the 
pH you use. There were numerous people who work in the analytical labs at 
Miller. They all said they measure the pH at room temp and these values 
are in 
the range as given in the text fro enzyme optimal conditions. 
I agree that we shoudl be using extract % rather than wieght percent. I also 
think we should be using Plato rather than the english SG scale also and 
metric 
measures. Life would be so much easier 
Jim 



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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:33:18 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: more on CPBF

David Sherfey <sherf at warwick.net> writes
>Subject: Re: Counter pressure filling / Benjamin filler
>
>Robert writes;
>>When filling subsequent bottles, you will see the beer drop back 
>towards the keg in the beer-in line when you open valve B in step 1. 
>This is in part due to the weight of the beer in the line. This is why 
>I have the keg LOWER than the filler. This allows you to judge the 
>speed of the beer during filling.
>
>What is in the empty space of the line?  I would think that this is air,
>which would partially defeat the purpose of counter-pressure filling,
>purging air out of the bottle.  Wouldn't it be better to avoid this by
>having the keg higher than the filler?

The empty space should be CO2.  You purge the bottle of air before
you open the beer line.  The pressures in the bottle and keg equalize
by sucking CO2 out of the bottle and into the line.

Incidentally, Robert acurately described my method with the
Braukunst CPBF.  I've been real happy with the filler, and the
results.  I keep the keg on the floor and bottle on the countertop,
which keeps the bottle at a higher elevation than the keg.  I
hadn't heard that I should do otherwise.  I only wish the
Braukunst filler had a third ball valve as a pressure release
valve rather than the needle valve.  And as Chuck Bernard said,
I don't see why people claim to need 3 hands to operate these
things.  I've only got two hands, and it works fine for me.

************
Paul in Cheyenne writes:
>Collective:  Is it stylistically appropriate to dry hop a cal common?

Anchor doesn't dry hop their Steam beer.
Style guidelines say you should have some Northern Brewer hop
aroma, so as long as you don't overdo it, either late kettle hops
or dry hops should be okay.

*************
Sam Mize says:
>Charley Burns posted an announcement for the "Queen of Beer" competition.
 ...
>Perhaps this competition will raise the visibility of women in brewing,
>and that's good.  There's a stereotype of this being a "man's" hobby -- at
>the moment, that's demographically true, but there's no inherent reason
>for it.

My wife is a great cook and had been interested in brewing for a while.
She helped me out and we talked about various aspects of brewing.  When
the first Queen of Beer was announced, she wanted to enter.  She quickly
learned that talking about brewing and brewing were two different things.
This competition really motivated her to learn what happens in the mash,
design a recipe, read a book, and basically go start to finish.  Her first
batch took a blue ribbon at the 1st Queen of Beer.  Now we both take
turns choosing what to brew and being "head brewer".

Last year we both judged at the competition, and the quality of all the
beers was outstanding, no matter who the brewers were.  She'll be
entering again this year...

I don't see this starting a trend of having a "women's" section in any
other competitions, but I know it has helped several women go from
being "wives of brewers" to "brewers" themselves.

  - Bryan

Bryan Gros	gros at bigfoot.com
Oakland, CA
Visit the new Draught Board homebrew website:
http://www.valhallabrewing.com/~thor/dboard/index.htm



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Date: 23 Jul 1998 17:10:16 -0400
From: JGORMAN at steelcase.com
Subject: Off the subject


This is not beer related, but some fermentation is involved.  Does anyone know
of any sites on the internet that have info on making home made soda?


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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:12:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: ale at cisco.com
Subject: Re: Hop ice cream

Garrett Pelton wrote:
| My wife and I were eating dinner with a friend last night, and 
| she mentioned that one of the local brewpubs had a recipe for
| HOP ice cream. This was the best ice cream she ever ate.
|  
| Does anyone have such a recipe? Does it use new or slightly used
| hops?
 
Please post it if you do.  Sounds like it would be yummy with some
malt extract syrup on top!
 
 -Alan


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Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:40:14 -0700
From: Tuula Pietila & Timo Jukka <tupietil at cc.helsinki.fi>
Subject: Re: Grist %, one more time

Hello again everybody, 

Peter Gilbreth wrote:

"This is because Mr. Daniels wants the poor homebrewer to feel at ease
with his or her new hobby. He understands that many people will be put
off by AR BS like we are wasting all of this bandwidth with. It is
illustrative, then, that Mr. Daniels agrees with my assertion that the
percentage of extract is more important than the mass of seeds, malted
or otherwise, that is required to achieve the desired wort."

I tried to make the point that Daniels is inconsistent and confusing
regarding this issue. I don't understand how anybody feels at ease with
confusing info. Once again, the inconsistency is that Daniels gives
recipes as percentage of grist by weight but calculates the malt bill by
extract. I don't see Daniels as agreeing with you -- or with me for that
matter. Oh yeah, last time I forgot to say that excepting a couple of
things, the book is very good. By the way, this AR BS is my hobby and I
do it because I enjoy it. Also, the points I made in my previous post
are not only relevant to this thread, but are basics in yield
calculations and interpreting malt analysis sheets and as such deserve
to be clarified. 

"The FG:CG difference is expressed in percentage. 1.8% difference
obviously means that there is 1.8% difference. (Talk about
redundant!?!?) 1.8% of 100 is 1.8 (100*.018 = 1.8.) 1.8% of 78 is 1.404
(78 * .018 = 1.404.) So 1.404 from 78 is 76.596. ~~~~~~~~~76.6"

All three percentages refer to dry basis, not to each other. The three
percentages I refer to are:

Yield/fine grind as percentage of dry basis, for example 78.0%
Yield/coarse grind as percentage of dry basis, for example 76.2%
Difference in yield as percentage of dry basis, which is what you get if
you calculate 78.0% - 76.2% = 1.8%

If 100 grams of malt has 4% moisture, then the dry basis is 96 grams. So
why would one want to know how much 1.8% of 96 is? No reason. FGCG DIFF
was not meant to be used in yield calculations. Instead, it is used to
reflect the modification of the malt and as such serves its purpose. And
because it is this simple, some maltsters leave out one of the two yield
figures. And because it is so simple, they could leave out either one:

78.0% - 1.8% = 76.2% + 1.8%

You didn't believe me the first time, so why should you believe me now?
Check out the following for confirmation:
http://www.beertown.org/BP/nblbintro.htm
http://www.cwb.ca/markets/gfwc/cwmb.htm
http://www.cgc.ca/Pubs/Quality/Barley/barleym-e.htm#maltingdata

"This looks to me like 9.4 lbs 6 row and 2.1 lbs flaked corn. Where
before I was at 9 and 2, which I admit is not accurate."

Actually, this is not exactly correct. The BME figure of 83% you
mentioned is probably calculated using empirical data from your brewery.
This figure is a bit skew, because it reflects the aforementioned errors
regarding moisture content and FG/CG diff. After the corrections you'll
have to determine your BME again.

>This is why I posted -- though the method is redundent,(sic) your
>intellectual process is not.

"I'm not sure how to take this one. Should my intellectual process be
redundant? I'll have to think that one over, and over, and
over........."

Sorry, maybe not the "Unambiguous Statement of the Year" winner... What
I meant was: I don't think the method you described has any significant
advantages to simpler methods. But if you choose to design and use
involved methods of calculation to achieve better results, you can do
so. I understand and encourage this type of intellectual endeavor, not
because you get a new, complex and inferior calculating method but
because in the process you gain a better understanding of the factors in
the brewing process. 

"Anyway,  when you get a different malt supplier, and the CG is 65,
except you didn't feel that you needed the additional PITA of math,
don't come crying to HBD because your Dopplebock is a Bock."

Using the percentage by weight calculation, the OG of the wort will not
be off the target when changing to a malt with a different yield. It's
the ratios of malts that might differ slightly from the intended i.e. my
Dopplebock (sic) might be a little too dark. Just like it might be if I
calculated the malt bill by extract from a recipe that was written out
in percentages by weight of grist -- only this time the deviation is
probably greater. Why? Because yield differences between malt types
(i.e. two-row vs caramel) are greater than within malt types (i.e.
Briess two-row vs Schreier two-row). So when I come crying to the HBD
it's because I got screwed by a maltster who sold me two-row with a
yield of 65%... Not very likely.

Timo Jukka in Helsinki, Finland


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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:16:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robert Paolino <rpaolino at execpc.com>
Subject: Breweries!  12th Annual Great Taste of the Midwest<sm> (fwd)

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:58:24 -0500

Here's the list of the breweries to be attending the 12th Annual Great
Taste of the Midwest<sm>, 8 August 1998, 1-6pm, Olin-Turville Park,
Madison, Wisconsin.  (The list is subject to change if a brewery cancels
and we admit a brewery off the waiting list.)

We're selling more tickets than last year, so tickets are still available
for those who didn't plan ahead.  Tickets will not, however, be sold at
the gate.  Send your SASE and check (payable to MHTG) for $18/ticket to:

Great Taste!
Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild
Post Office Box 1365
Madison, Wisconsin  53701-1365

Please pass the information, as appropriate, to other beer enthusiasts or
your friends who need to be educated about real beer!

The event will also feature a Wisconsin Brewers Guild Sesquicentennial
Pre-Prohibition Beer project, special features sponsored by Milwaukee's
Cream City Suds and by Great Lakes Brewing News...along with the usual
beer sampling, exhibits, strolling musicians, et cetera.  Proceeds from
North America's second(?) longest-running craft beer festival benefit
Community Radio WORT 89.9 FM Madison.

And now, here's that list:

American Beer Works / Angelic Brewing Company / Appleton Brewing Company /
Arcadia Brewing Company / Atwater Block Brewery / August Schell Brewing
Company / BOB's House of Brews! / BT McClintic Beer Company / Back Road
Brewery / Backwater Brewing Company / Barrelhouse Brewing Company / Bibiana
Brewing / Bloomington Brewing Company / Blue Cat Brew Pub / Boston Beer
Company / Boulevard Brewing Company / Brewery Creek / Brewmaster's Pub /
Capital Brewing Company / Circle V Brewing Company / Copper Dragon Brewing
Company / Crooked River Brewing Company / Crooked Waters Brewery and Pub /
Cross Plains Brewery Inc / Diamondback Brewing Comapny / District Warehouse
Brewing Company / Dubuque Brewing and Bottling / EndeHouse Brewery and
Restaurant / European Zebra Beers / Fitger's Brewhouse Brewery and Grill /
Flatlander's / Flossmoor Station Brewing Company / Founders Hill Brewing
Company / Fox River Brewing Company / Glen Ellyn Brewing Company / Golden
Prairie Brewing Company / Goose Island Beer and Brewing Companies / Gray
Brewing Company / Great Dane Pub and Brewing Company / Great Lakes Brewing
Company / Great Waters Brewing Company / Green Bay Brewing Company / Harbor
City Brewing Company / Hopcats / J.K. Silver / J.T.Whitney's Brewpub and
Eatery / Jacob Leinenkugel Brewing Company / James Page Brewing / John
Harvard's Brew House / Joseph Huber Brewing Company / Kalamazoo Brewing
Company / Lafayette Brewing Company / Lake Superior Brewing Company /
Lakefront Brewery Inc / Mad Anthony Brewing Company / Main Street Brewery /
Maumee Bay Brewing Company / Mickey Finn's Brewery / Millstream Brewing
Company / Milwaukee Ale House / Minneapolis Town Hall Brewing Company / New
Glarus Brewing Company / Northwoods Brewing Corporation, LLC / Oaken Barrel
Brewing Company / Oconomowoc Brewing Company / Ohio Brewing Company / Olde
Peninsula Brew Pub / Pavichevich Brewing Company / Pioneer Brewing Company /
Port Washington Brewing Company / Rail House Brewing / Randy's Fun Hunters
Brewery / Red Brick Brewing/ Little Red Inn / Remington Watson Smith Brewing
Company Inc / Rock Bottom Brewery-Indianapolis / Rock Bottom Brewery-Milwaukee
/ Rock Bottom Brewery-Minneapolis / Roffey Brewing Company / Saint Louis
Brewery Inc / Slab City Brewing Company / South Shore Brewery / Sprecher
Brewing Company / Stevens Point Brewery / Stone City Brewing Ltd. / Sturgeon
Bay Brewing Company / Summit Brewing Company / Three Floyd's Brewing Company
LLC / Titletown Brewing Company / Traverse Brewing Company Ltd / Two Brothers
Brewing Company / Water Street Brewery / Weeghman Park Restaurant and Brewery
/ Western Reserve Brewing Company / Wild Onion Brewing Company / Wisconsin
Brewing Company

All that talk about breweries is making me hopping thirsty!  I think
I'll...

Now go have a beer,
Bob Paolino                                  rpaolino at earth.execpc.com
Madison
I can taste my beer.  Can you?  Bland Beer is the Worst Sort of Tyranny!
Don't drink bland industrial swill; it only encourages them to make more.
Great Taste of the Midwest tickets now on sale!



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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:26:44 -0700
From: Steven Gibbs <gibbs at lightspeed.net>
Subject: fermenting in SS cornies

Kyle:
congrats on your super clean beer....er...pretty clean beer. Sorry,
couldn't resist. I have been fermenting in SS kegs for the last 3 years.
I chill my hopped wort with an immersion chiller and run it straight
into the super clean designated fermentation SS keg with approx. 1 inch
of the pickup tube taken off. Before every use, I take both sides of the
pin lock (or ball lock) tops and boil them for twenty minutes. I take
the pickup tube out and use my 22-cal. rifle cleaning rod with a
cleaning patch wetted with iodofer solution until I can see nothing but
a glisening surface. I soak the component parts in iodofer until ready
to use.
    I found out a great way to clean the SS keg itself, and especially
the dreaded ring of gack! Once I rinse them after use, I fill them with
water and add 1/2 cup Soda Ash. Let them set for at least a day (or
mabye a month) and the stuff just falls off the inside SS keg. This also
helps to avoid the other dreaded problem in cleaning the kegs, the red
chaffed forearm blotch.
    When I ferment in the kegs I use a blow off method by attaching
clear tubing to the CO2 /Gas side connector and putting the other end in
a container filled with water and clorine bleach. I can attest to the
durability of the fermenting kegs and I have even dropped them without
slicing my feet open or having my wife clean up the mess. I have placed
them in the pool, water bath or fermentation/lager chest. They simply
work great.
Happy brewing
Steve Gibbs



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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:07:37 EDT
From: HomBrwer at aol.com
Subject: Monthly Beers

At the start of the new year our homebrew club is going to start a club comp.
for the club brewer of the year.  We are going to score beer once a month and
at the end of the year name our brewer of the year.
My question for the group is:  What beer styles are appropriate for each month
( January - December)?  Some months are sort of easy:  October - Octoberfest,
December - Strong Ales.  But what about the other months.  Any advice would be
helpful.  E-mail's ok.

Jim
HomBrwer at aol.com


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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:35:56 EDT
From: AllDey at aol.com
Subject: re:re:FWH

My post in 2775 concerning Brad Johnson's first wort hopping question was
strangely clipped to a couple non-sensical lines.  Worse, the line < I would
kick the FW hops and late additions up a tad next time > makes it appear I
think more hops are needed in his recipe...not true, I was referring to my
recipe which was posted (but deleted somehow) above those words.

Brad Johnson wrote about his California Steam beer:
>the beer tasted OK>on kegging - a little rough but that's what lagering is
for
<snip>>	N Brewer 3.85 oz  at  6.9 AAU 60 min, FWH>	N Brewer 2 oz 10 min.<snip>
and the hop flavor is overwhelming, even cloying. It also has a
>pronounced bitterness, perhaps consistent with increased utilization>with
FWH.
>I am interested in other's experiences with FWH -<snip>

In 2774, Jeff Renner responded appropriately "You have several hop related
questions, it seems to me - roughness and high hop flavor.  The first may be
overhopping: <snip>So bitterness is 48-62 IBU, ignoring the likely additional
extraction from the time prior to boil.  This is pretty high, especially if
you used pellets.  <snip>

My contribution is a comparison to a Cal. Common in which I used FWH, scored
quite well (36), but didn't have quite enough hop flavor or aroma.  Here's the
abridged info: All hops are N.Brewer.  pre-boil wort volume 13.0 gal.  post-
boil volume=11.0 gal.
1 oz Leaf, AA%=9.4, FWH 90min
0.9 oz Pellet, AA%=6.2, FWH 90min
1 oz Leaf, AA%=9.4, 60 min
1 oz Leaf, AA%=9.4, 20 min
2 oz Leaf, AA%-=9.4, 2 min
s.g. =1.054, ending 1.016

The judges wanted more hop flavor and aroma (and I agree).  Bitterness was in
appropriate balance with malt.  So, I would try more FWH hops in my recipe -
like maybe another ounce for flavor and perhaps dry hop an ounce for aroma.
Noble Shwoble....

Paul
Cheyenne, WY 


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Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:45:46 -0400
From: "Mark Pratt" <mstepp at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Need IPA recipe

Hey all, I'm new here and have been receiving daily updates.  My buddy has
been brewing for a couple of years and is a member of a local club (in VA) 
His questiion, since I have the computer.  Does anybody have a recipe for
single infusion for an IPA???   



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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:34:45 -0400
From: NAZELROD at tst.tracor.com (NAZELROD)
Subject: re: yeast starters

In HBD2775 "Steven Jones" <stjones1 at worldnet.att.net>
explains his method of making starters from slants and quart jars of 
pressure canned 1.040 wort. And then asks for comments.

>A week before brewday I open a quart jar of wort (covered
>with sanitized cheesecloth to attempt to filter the air sucked
>into the jar) and pour about 4 oz into a sanitized 1 liter
>ehrlenmeyer flask. I innoculate the 4 oz of wort from a slant
>and shake the #$ at % out of it and seal with a sanitized
>airlock. 
Starting with 4 oz. seems like too much for a glob from a slant; 5 ml (.17 
oz) is a more normal amount to use at this point. 

>Several times a day for the next 2 days I shake it.
>Then for the next 3 days, I add 4 oz wort each day and
>shake again, several times a day. 
Instead of adding 4 oz each time, you could step up by 10x.

<other good stuff snipped>

My concern with your method is that while you are nicely growing your 
starter the remainder of the 1 qt wort is sitting in the fridge, no longer 
sterile, without any yeast.  Whatever contaminants manage to find their way 
into the wort have a chance to grow.  You could also can some half pint 
jars, and start with those.  Apparently Steven does not have problems from 
this, but it seems like a high risk area.

Comments on my comments are also welcome.

Gary Nazelrod
Silver Spring, MD



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