HOMEBREW Digest #2778 Sun 26 July 1998

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Uneven Temperature profile in the mashtun (SBireley)
  Re:Scaling up: The next step? (Joseph A. Clayton)
  Soot, Propane Burners ("Schultz, Steven W.")
  Phloating Phalse Bottom (Fred Kingston)
  Brew Pubs for Kevin ("Philip Kokoczka")
  Re: high FG/scaling up/Victory in Frederick ("Jim Busch")
  HBD # 2776, Response to Steve Owens ("Fred M. Scheer")
  Kevin's Phloating Phalse Bottom ("Philip Kokoczka")
  Freezer modification question ("Victor Farren")
  Hemp Beer/ Frederick Brewing Co. (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Slurry from breweries (Danny Breidenbach)
  scaling up; starters; survival of breweries; sweaty iron; CO2 and chilling (Samuel Mize)
  Bleach and stainless ("Kaczorowski, Scott")
  Re: Wort Under Layer Of CO2 -> Dry Ice?? ("Tkach, Christopher")
  dry hopping help ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  Homegrown hop problems... (Stephen Rockey)
  Queen of Beer (philgro)
  Disimpugning Andrew's Thermometer (Samuel Mize)
  Brew chem. books (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Scaling Up/Hoppy beers/Banquet Beer (Headduck)
  High saccharification temps for decoction mashes (Andrew Ager)
  Brewing Partner - CAP (keith  christiann)
  Passing the Peace Pipe ("LordPeter")
  mini keg extra curricular ideas (AlannnnT)
  Queen of beer (Some Guy)
  chlorine pitting of stainless steel (Laurel Maney)
  BU calculation for Rob in Toronto (Laurel Maney)
  Jethro Has Lot's To Say...But Laurel Maney Sez More ("Rob Moline")
  Homebrew Soda ("J. Kish")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 07:54:08 EST From: SBireley at renex.com Subject: Uneven Temperature profile in the mashtun We mash in a sankey keg ,not a gott cooler, but experienced the same uneven temperature profile in our early mashes. We had temperature differences as high as 20 deg F, 8" apart in the tun. Lots and lots of stirring helped, but once we started to recirculate the wort with a pump, our temperature profile stayed within 1 to 2 deg f. throughout the mash. We recirculate during temperature boosts and during the rest, just enough to establish an even temperature profile. We measure using a thermocouple probe, but any long stem bi-metal thermometer is adequate to check the temperature profile from top to bottom and side to side. Adding the the pump to the system improved process repeatability, the quality of our beer, and left more time for sampling previous batches. Steve Bireley Northern Virginia Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:17:20 -0400 (EDT) From: ak753 at detroit.freenet.org (Joseph A. Clayton) Subject: Re:Scaling up: The next step? Steve wrote: >Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:04:43 -0700 (PDT) >From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff at netcom.com> >Subject: Scaling up: The next step? > For scaling up, I'm curious about two things. First, what are >the easy steps for scaling up for home brewing. Second, what are the >very-low-end options for scaling up for, say, a microbrewpub? Check out the Michigan Brewers Guild web page: (http://www.michiganbeerguide.com/current.htm) for an interesting article on a micro (in the true sense of the word!) and future meadery that is operating in our area. Their name is Dragonmead and they are basically a microbrewery using 1/2bbl homebrewing equipment. It seems their plan is to use their small size to maximize the number of styles available to their customers. I have not been up there yet, but a guy I work with says they make very good beer. They have only been open a couple of months so time will tell how their operation goes. It is an interesting concept for homebrewers wanting to make the next step. Cheers, Joe C. - -- Joe Clayton Farmington Hills, MI USA ak753 at detroit.freenet.org or yyzclayton at aol.com (Preferred) claytonj at cc.tacom.army.mil (If you must) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:22:07 -0400 From: "Schultz, Steven W." <swschult at CBDCOM-EMH1.APGEA.ARMY.MIL> Subject: Soot, Propane Burners I used the side burner on my gas grill recently and totally sooted up the bottom of my wife's sauce pan. I don't want this to happen to me (my kettle, actually) when I start using a propane burner for boiling wort. Therefore, I would appreciate recommendations for propane burners that don't soot up the kettle. And-- are there any "secrets" which contribute to soot-free boiling? Thanks in advance. Steve Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:31:30 -0400 From: Fred Kingston <Fred at KingstonCo.com> Subject: Phloating Phalse Bottom From: Kevin TenBrink <tenbrink at jps.net> Subject: commercial examples of high IBU? Kevin asks...... 1) I am using a 10 gallon rubbermaid with Phalse bottom and sparge arm. I cut a piece of racking tube lengthwise and wrapped around the circumference of the phalse bottom and held it down with my brew paddle while doughing in to try and avoid getting grain under the bottom and prevent the dreaded stuck sparge, well this was unsuccessful...does anyone have a way to keep the bottom from phloating up in the water before I add the malt? I had the same problem. I fill 3 Grolsh bottles w/hot water and place them cap-to-end around the bottom of the Gott cooler on top of the phloating phalse bottom... then I add the mash water, then dough in... works for me.... :) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:25:23 PDT From: "Philip Kokoczka" <philip63 at hotmail.com> Subject: Brew Pubs for Kevin >>Kevin TenBrink wrote: >>If you know of any brewpubs between Salt Lake City and MI and >>not too far off I-80 with beers meeting this criteria, I am driving >>from SLC to MI Aug 23 and would be able to stop in. Kevin, try going to www.pubcrawler.com for a listing of brewpubs. Just supply the city you will be near and pubcrawler gives you the nearest brewpubs. If you are comming up I-80 and want a GREAT brewpub, swing up to Jackson MI and visit the Jackson Brewery. It's located on I-94 just a couple of miles East of US-127. If you like hoppy beer try the Puddleford Ale. The food is also super-not what you would expect in a typical brewpub-really gourmet. Phil Kokoczka Jackson, MI ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:35:53 +0000 From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com> Subject: Re: high FG/scaling up/Victory in Frederick > My situation is this: A high gravity Oktoberfest 1.075 OG being fermented at > 52F with Wyeast 2206. Within the first 9 hours I had a nice krausen and > fireworks display fermentation inside my Son-of-fermentation-chiller. After > 14 days the gravity had fallen to 1.031. I'm hoping for 1.019-1.021. After 4 > more days (18 total) its down to 1.028. Its still bubbling, but very slowly. You dont mention the mash temps but I assume you had a rest in the beta amylase region. If so then I would look at yeast cell pitching counts/viability and O2. BTW, thats one mighty big Ofest! (you could wait another week and see if you drop the last 2P to 5P FG.) > > Is there any danger from such a loooonnnngggg primary? Not if your sanitation procedures are good. Problem is more of final gravity. Did you do a forced fast ferment? This is crucial to determine the real degree of fermentability and hence to decide if the problem is wort composition or yeast related. > Subject: Scaling up: The next step? > For scaling up, I'm curious about two things. First, what are > the easy steps for scaling up for home brewing. IMO, the easiest method for home systems is the converted sankey keg with a Superb or wok burner. For fermenting you can use another keg or a SS stock pot or several carboys or a food grade trash bucket or a custom unitank. > Second, what are the > very-low-end options for scaling up for, say, a microbrewpub? IMO, forget it. Its hard enough to make this business viable with capitalization on the order of 2 million dollars much less 5K. That said you could cobble together lots of home made SS or 55 gal oil drums, work you butt off forever, have beer of questionable stability and never make a dime. Ask Joe Rolfe about this, and he had (still has?) some nice 2 and 4 BBL unis. > After discussions with people who seem to know what they're > doing, it sounds like doing a full mash, while technically > interesting, doesn't really give you much more than better fine Hogwash and it costs too much to be commercially viable (extracts). > Subject: commercial examples of high IBU? High is relative but Rogue lists IBUs on some of their beers. Tom Bergman makes some very good points about micros and their strategic focus which I agree with entirely. It never ceases to amaze me how folks get into the business and think that if only they had a huge brewery they could sell tons of beer. It doesnt work that way in todays crowded market where consumers have hundreds of choices. The brands need to be built before the huge brewhouse goes in. <still waiting for Victory out here-comeon guys, ship at least to <Frederick!). Your wish is our command. Call Ye Old Spirit Shop on W 7th St in Frederick. They have been stocking Prima Pils, HopDevil and the seasonals (St Boisterous Hellerbock is probably all gone now, but bottled decocted Munich monster Festbier is coming in late Aug). Also visit us at the MABF in DC on Aug 29 and 30. Prost! Jim Busch HopDevil IPA - Menacingly Delicious! "One of the best IPAs in the country" - D. Brockington, Seattle, WA. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:38:41 -0600 From: "Fred M. Scheer" <maltster at marsweb.com> Subject: HBD # 2776, Response to Steve Owens SCALLING UP, wauuuuuuuuuuu, GREAT, Steven: I do recommend to contact the people at PICO Brewing System in MI. Mike O'Brian and Steve West are experts in SCALLING UP. I had their 5 gallon Brewhouse as Pilot Brewery. It was a great Research tool, AND I let the local Homebrewclub using it. We even purchased the first system from them. THIS IS NOT A PAID ADVERTISMENT, ONLY A RECOMMENDATION (LOLOLOLO). Fred M. Scheer Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:39:22 PDT From: "Philip Kokoczka" <philip63 at hotmail.com> Subject: Kevin's Phloating Phalse Bottom >>Kevin TenBrink wrote: >>Having recently started all-grain after 2 years and 50 batches of >>extract/specialty grain has left me with a few questions, any and >>all help would be appreciated! >>1) I am using a 10 gallon rubbermaid with Phalse bottom and sparge >>arm. I cut a piece of racking tube lengthwise and wrapped around the >>circumference of the phalse bottom and held it down with my brew >>paddle while doughing in to try and avoid getting grain under the >>bottom and prevent the dreaded stuck sparge, well this was >>unsuccessful...does anyone have a way to keep the bottom from >>phloating up in the water before I add the malt? Kevin, I use the same set-up as you do. I use a piece of copper tubing to connect the Phalse Bottom to the spigot opening on the Rubbermaid cooler. The copper tube is stiff enough to keep the Phalse Bottom anchored to the bottom of the cooler. You are probable using flexible tubing to do the connection. My cooler has brass tube fittings on the spigot opening to accept the copper tube. Any good hardware store should be able to fix you up with the proper sizes to fit the spigot opening on your cooler and the copper tubing. (The copper tubing is connected to the Phalse Bottom fitting by a very short length of flexible vinyl tubing-just enough to allow the assembly to flex enough to slip into the copper compression fitting on the cooler). Good luck! Phil Kokoczka Jackson, MI ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:04:24 -0400 From: "Victor Farren" <vfarren at smtp.cdie.org> Subject: Freezer modification question I have the opportunity to acquire a freezer for $50 form my neighbor. The catch is that upon inspection, I realize that one cannot remove the shelves because the freezer coils are attached to the underside of them. They are not copper coils so I assume they are aluminum, or some other silver colored metal that is fairly malleable (at least I assume they are malleable b/c they are bent in loops). The coils are attached to the shelves via clips so I think I can safely unclip the coils from the shelves and remove them (shelves). I was thinking of bending the coils back towards the back of the freezer, as close to the wall as possible, therefor allowing me to put carboys and corny kegs in it. Has anyone done this/familiar with these types of freezers? Anyone got any ideas on how malleable these coils are? I don't want to start bending them and have them snap on me. Should I forget the freezer and look for another kind ($50 is hard to beat I think). Thanks Victor Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:16:36 -0400 (EDT) From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu> Subject: Hemp Beer/ Frederick Brewing Co. Tom Bergman wrote in part, "I have also tasted Hempen Ale (Frederick Brewing Company, Blue Ridge, Wild Goose, Brimstone and Deep Creek Brewing Co labels (maybe more, I'm not sure). Although I personally did not care for it (I thought it tasted 'soapy' not nutty), it is probably the best beer they make in terms of craftmanship and cleanliness." Just wanted to throw in my two cents worth concerning Frederick's products. Our local liquor store just ran a special on all of Frederick Brewing's products ($3.99/six!) so I was able to try all they have to offer. While I also didn't find the Hemp beers to my liking I did like some of the other beers very much notably their Stone Beer, the Wild Goose IPA and the Porter which I found to be very tasty indeed! (went back for a whole case later). The ESB Red ale was not bad and the "Sunrage Sour Mashed" beer which I approached with trepidation was surprisingly good - light and refreshiing, the perfect "lawnmower beer." While the Golden ale was nothing to write home about I didn't detect any overt evidence of staling or infections in any of these beers. Also, they make a seasonal "Hopfest" every year which I had the pleasure of trying at one of Baltimore's brewfests last Fall and it was EXCELLENT. The best beer at that show IMHO and I believe it in fact came in first or second place here as well as in a Barleywine rating last winter. P.S. - there are plenty of Victory beers here in Baltimore Tom so next time you're in town stock up! My local pub has HopDevil on tap ;) -Alan Meeker Poroprietor, Meeker Femtobrewery Baltimore, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:34:48 -0400 From: Danny Breidenbach <DBreidenbach at nctm.org> Subject: Slurry from breweries OK folks, I keep hearing about lucky dogs who live near breweries and manage to get nice large batches of slurry to pitch into their homebrew. So what's the technique for getting to the point where you can do this. I know that if I walked into the brew-pub near me and asked how I might manage to sneak a pint or two of slurry, the people would look at me like I was nuts. What, do you slowly ingratiate yourself with the brewmaster? Are most (all) brewmasters so generous with their yeast, or is asking such a thing a great, huge favor? I'm asking all this because I wouldn't want to come off looking like a butthead by asking, yet I do live near a brewery and wonder if I'm missing out on a really good thing. Thanks for any random thoughts. - --Danny Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:18:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Samuel Mize <smize at mail.imagin.net> Subject: scaling up; starters; survival of breweries; sweaty iron; CO2 and chilling Greetings to all, and especially to: > From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff at netcom.com> > Subject: Scaling up: The next step? > it sounds like doing a full mash, while technically > interesting, doesn't really give you much more than better fine > control over the malt and a relatively small savings. Is this true? If you're using bulk malt extract, yes. If you're using cans of extract or kits, the savings can be considerable. The question is whether you want to brew good beer, or Great Beer. Either answer is fine, but you should know which one is your goal. I personally brew good beer and have fun. I'll probably never win a medal, but I also won't get shot at -- wait, wrong kind of medal. Remember the 80/20 rule: 80% of the result comes from 20% of the input. This is true for a lot of things, and brewing is one of them. Mashing is part of the 80% of the effort that gives the last 20% of the quality. > For the home, somebody suggested getting a 5-gallon pot and doing > double-batches ... our current pot is about at the limits of what our > kitchen gas stove can do. A larger pot can often straddle two burners. Also, many people spend $50 to get an outdoor cooker. If you do, I'd look for one with a ring burner - -- the single-flame "jet engines" put out more heat, but throw a lot of it past the pot. > For brewpubs ... Is there any way to edge into this level of brewing > for less than $5K? I suspect the licensing and legal paperwork will consume most of $5K. (I assume you're in the USA.) As far as equipment costs, I doubt that there's anyone selling a turn-key system in that price range, but you can probably put together a home-built system within your means. Your output will be limited, and you'll be doing a lot of manual labor, but it might work out as a good attraction for an established bar (that is not depending on your output for most of its beer). The only thing I can tell you for sure is to do ALL the research and make sure you'll be able to get licensed and operating, BEFORE you drop the money on the equipment! There are more hoops to jump through than most people realize. - - - - - - - - - - > From: Jorge Blasig - IQ <gisalb at fing.edu.uy> > Subject: Starter > My method for preparing a starter is quite simple and I wonder whether I > follow the right procedure or not. I wonder whether my beer could be > improved if I follow a different procedure. Good news: you're already doing too much work. You make a starter to increase the amount of yeast. We do this with liquid yeast, because the package contains only a small amount of yeast. Dry yeast packages contain a LOT more yeast. Just rehydrate and pitch. Letting the yeast eat sugar for a couple of hours won't do much. It takes a day or so to increase the size of the yeast colony. On the other hand, it probably isn't harming them either. One other reason to make a starter is so you can smell and taste it, and see if the yeast was infected. This would also take a day or so to show up. I never bother doing this with dry yeast. Here's the Preferred Method for rehydrating yeast, based on info from the Lallemand web site: 1 Boil about a cup of water and let it cool to 104F (which is 40C, I think). 35-45C should be OK. 2 Sprinkle the yeast on top of the water, but don't stir. Dried yeast are very fragile, and stirring will shatter a bunch of them. 3 After five minutes, most of the yeast are more flexible. Stir. 4 After ten more minutes, pitch into your wort. You're right to start with plain water. The osmotic pressure of sugar water would kill a lot of yeast as they rehydrate. I prefer not to let the yeast sit without food for more than 15 minutes, but half an hour is not too bad. > I pitch at 23C. (Rassin' frassin' darn metric conversions...) Looks OK. You will get fewer esters (which give fruity, flowery flavors) if you ferment a little cooler, about, uh, 18-20C. (65-70F) I think in F and convert to C. If they don't match use the F value. - - - - - - - - - - > From: NEWTRADBC at aol.com > My bigger gripe is that some micros seem to believe the only hope of > survival are gimmick beers, and few ... are focusing on quality ... > This approach to wide distribution/poor quality control plays right > into the hands of budmilloors and will only ensure that history (wiping > out of small breweries) will repeat itself. ... > [I] just want MORE quality microbrew on the shelf. Unfortunately, one step toward that goal is killing off the micros founded to make a quick buck by trend-followers. Don't support a micro just because it's a micro; support it if it's really trying to provide a good, high-quality product (whether that product is gimmicky or not). - - - - - - - - - - > From: caburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns) > Subject: Hot and sweaty, that's how I like it Great story! I'd suggest you put water-filled pots on the rack and shake it a little, just to make sure all the welds are strong. If one breaks, I'd rather have 5 gallons of cool water dumped on me than 5 gallons of boiling, expensive wort. You've probably thought about that, but your experience with the acetylene tank makes me bold to mention it. :-) - - - - - - - - - - > From: bob_poirier at adc.com > Subject: Wort Under Layer Of CO2 >...while using an immersion wort chiller ... > What if I dumped some CO2 on top of the wort before I > started cooling it??? Would that minimize the chances HSA, or, would > the CO2 be dispersed for some reason that I cannot fathom?? I'd expect it to disperse out into the air pretty quickly. It'll hang together about as well as steam or smoke. If you want to guard against HSA, you might float a pie pan on top of the wort, to cut off air access. Also, you don't need to thrash around with the chiller -- a very gentle movement will break up the thermal layers. One person does this by turning the water off and on every few minutes, and the water hammer shakes the chiller enough to do the job. Best, Sam Mize - -- Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada Fight Spam: see http://www.cauce.org/ \\\ Smert Spamonam Return to table of contents
Date: 24 Jul 1998 09:35:46 U From: "Kaczorowski, Scott" <kaczorowski#m#_scott at apt.mdc.com> Subject: Bleach and stainless Matt Brooks said: > So the moral of the story: Chlorine Bleach works great on stainless > at low concentrations at reasonable soaking times. Remember it > does'nt take much to kill those little bugs...10-20 mg/L for 30 > minutes or more should be fine, for shorter contact times, say 5 > minutes try ~60 mg/L. <snip details of proper concentration> Like the fellow Spencer quoted, I have a stainless steel mixing bowl that won't hold liquid because I used to use it for sanitizing small items in a bleach solution. Admittedly, concentration was probably high, and contact time was never more than an hour. I believe the area of activity is at the site on the vessel where the surface of the bleach solution and the air meet (Will purging with CO2 help this?), that is, at the meniscus. If you can fill a Corny or whatever so completely that no air pockets remain, it should be fine. I still use bleach for many things (eg, carboys), but mostly for its role as a cheap cleaner rather than a sanitizer. For stainless such as Cornys and my 1/2 bbls, bleach isn't allowed, and I either use PBW or Barkeeper's Friend and some elbow grease. Bleach is just not worth the risk for me. Scott Kaczorowski Long Beach, CA kacz at deltanet.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:39:35 -0400 From: "Tkach, Christopher" <tkach at cabletron.com> Subject: Re: Wort Under Layer Of CO2 -> Dry Ice?? How 'bout adding some dry ice? Has anyone ever done this...I suppose you would have to watch out for the hot wort splashing due to the violent nature of the dry ice melting, but you wouldn't be diluting your wort, and you'll probably be minimizing HSA. That is if you can get "clean" dry ice at a reasonable price... - Chris "its been a long day and its only noon" Tkach Dover, NH Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:46:59 -0400 From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at avery.med.virginia.edu> Subject: dry hopping help I just had this idea and wanted to run it by the group. Some of us have trouble getting those leaf hops to stay sbmerged even with weights. What I do is tie the top of the hop bag with some dental floss and put the bag into the keg I use for a secondary. Then I tie the other end of the string to something on the top of the keg. The hops are usually bobbing about at the surface when I put the lid on. But.... what if now I turn the keg upside down! where are all those hops now? Underneath all that beer. What do you think? Rick Pauly Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:57:11 -0400 (EDT) From: srockey at egyptian.net (Stephen Rockey) Subject: Homegrown hop problems... Hello fellow Hop growers, I live in Southern Illinois. I am growing some Cascade, Northern Brewer, and Fuggles hops. This is the 2nd year for all the plants.(2 of each) The NB and the Cascade are doing very well. I harvested about 6 ounces, dried, off both plants last year...then there's the Fuggles. It (2 plants) came up last year well, and produced VERY little. OK, this was the first year, I can take that. Now the 2nd year, the Fuggles came up like gangbusters. It grew up just great, but has still no produced any amount of hops to be useful. Both the Cascade and the Northern Brewer are doing great and are covered with hops. The Fuggles still looks good, although some of the leaves are turning a bit yellow. Do the Fuggles take longer to produce? The Fuggles and the Northern Brewer are within 6 feet of each other. The soil and the amount of sunshine/water/fertilizer/soil type are the same. Thanks, Steve Rockey srockey at egyptian.net PS-Please reply to "srockey at egyptian.net" not the afn.org address, Thanks. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:33:26 +0000 From: philgro at swcp.com Subject: Queen of Beer Since women are often said to have more acute senses of smell and taste than men,and are often more practiced in the culinary arts,I think the whole thing is a plot to get women out of the guys' competitions! Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:18:47 -0500 (CDT) From: Samuel Mize <smize at mail.imagin.net> Subject: Disimpugning Andrew's Thermometer Andrew Ager wrote about getting variable temperature readings. I suggested it might be a thermometer problem. However, I recently re-read a post in HBD 2611 reporting the same thing from Al K, and a his posts are of course irrefragable. Apparently I was wrong, mark your calendar. What he said, in extract form, was: while the bimetal was reading 155F, the Omega read anywhere from 145F to 165F, depending on where you poked it. No amount of stirring ... made any difference. ... My beer came out great before ... and it still comes out great ... Enzymes are all statistics and half-lives. ... I merely control the inputs as best I can and as long as the outputs come out predictable (and tasty), I'm happy. Best, Sam Mize - -- Samuel Mize -- smize at imagin.net (home email) -- Team Ada Fight Spam: see http://www.cauce.org/ \\\ Smert Spamonam Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:36:10 -0400 (EDT) From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu> Subject: Brew chem. books In response to my criticism of George Fix's book, Principles of Brewing Science Steve Alexander wrote in part... " I have a relatively short list of errata noted - the ones relevent to chemistry are pp 143 - there is something wrong with the DMS production rate equation and pp 13-19 there is something rather confusing, *maybe* wrong about some of the water ion discussion. Also I think that the level of detail in the chemistry discussions in PoBS may not impress a professional chemist, but considering it is written for a different audience I don't believe that it is bad at all. As for the "multitude of errors" - I guess I'd like to see just what you are talking about. Are these really conceptual errors - or is it the sort of imprecision that is probably necessary in a presentation to a general audience. Would you care to cite a few examples ?" >>>> Some specifics? ----> Sodium and potassium hydroxide are not *weak* bases. Amino acids are not proteins B-vitamins are not minerals Chemical equations should always balance. The number and types of elements on one side must appear in some form on the other side. Charges need to balance as well. There are many unbalanced equations in the book. I doubt Dr. Fix, being a mathematician, would appreciate it very much were I to write a book on mathematics full of unbalanced equations, even if it was targeted at a lay audience. Carbon should always be forming 4 bonds in organic structures. Some steps in metabolic pathways outlined include the relevant enzymes and important cofactors required while others do not. Maybe you will consider such errors minor and that I am being too picky but it really did put me off while I was reading the book. There are other mistakes that I do consider nitpicking so I won't discuss these although, I do believe they too were for the modst part avoidable. True, a book written towards a more general audience must inevitably be watered down in many respects but I submit that when trying to present technical material to a lay audience one should be doubly careful that what is presented is as accurate as possible. Such a book is likely to be used as a main source of information for the reader and if there are fundamental errors in it I believe that you are doing that reader a disservice. Of course, the occcasional typos will get through but the more basic errors really should have been caught by proper proofreading. -Alan Meeker Johns Hopkins School of Medicine Baltimore, MD Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:12:38 EDT From: Headduck at aol.com Subject: Scaling Up/Hoppy beers/Banquet Beer Steven J. Owens writes: << After discussions with people who seem to know what they're doing, it sounds like doing a full mash, while technically interesting, doesn't really give you much more than better fine control over the malt and a relatively small savings. Is this true? Sometimes I get the feeling there's an unspoken rule that you're not "real brewer" unless you do full mash brewing.>> This is not necessarily true (the part about relatively small savings). The savings can be substantial. I am brewing 10 gallon all grain batches for essentially what I had been making 5 gallon extract batches for. While great beers can be made with extract, once you try all grain I doubt that you will go back (for a variety of reasons). As far as your next step, I would get a cooler, larger kettle and a propane cooker, start making 10-15 gallon batches of all-grain. Brewing Techniques magazine had an excellent article last year about cooler mashing. That's how I got started with all-grain brewing and I am very satisfied with the results. Kevin TenBrick writes: I like hops!! I typically use 6-8 ozs in each 5 gallon batch, the IBU calculators usually give me numbers in the 90-120 range. Are there any commercially available beers with REALLY high IBUs that I could try to see if I am getting these kind of numbers in reality instead of just theory? If you know of any brewpubs between Salt Lake City and MI and not too far off I-80 with beers meeting this criteria, I am driving from SLC to MI Aug 23 and would be able to stop in. In Nederland Colorado (quite a bit south of your route, I'm afraid), there is a small brewery (Wolf's Toungue) that makes a Mr. Hoppy IPA, this is the hoppiest beer I have ever had commercially. I am sure it is well over 100 IBUs. The brewery is interesting, as well. It is the original equipment from the New Belgian Brewery with a 4 barrel Lauter Tun with a copper pipe manifold like you would use in a cooler set up. The brewer is very friendly and the unofficial tour takes about 5 minutes. Tom Bergman wonders: <<Coor's Original ("Banquet Beer" on the label, what the **** does that mean?)>> We also toured Colorado's largest brewery while out there recently and the tour guide stated that when Adolf Coors started making beer, he felt that it was good enough for banquets...like a fine wine. It was an awesome tour, but I was not thrilled with the tasting afterward. The Full Moon Belgian White was alright but the other beers tasted like, well, Coors. Much preferred the beers at the Wolf's Tongue in Nederland. enough for now, Joe Yoder Lawrence, KS Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:48:34 -0500 From: Andrew Ager <andrew-ager at nwu.edu> Subject: High saccharification temps for decoction mashes O HBD, I've been reading up on decoction mashing lately in preparation for an upcoming weizen, which will also be my first decoction. I'm wondering why everything I've read so far calls for incredibly high sacch. temperatures, like 158-162F. Warner also mentions a "maltose rest" at 149 that I've never heard of. Now, I know what mashing at these temperatures would mean for a "normal" mash, so what is it about decoction that needs these seemingly high temperatures? Consensus on my mash temperature differential is... STIR! repeat... Thanks, Andy Ager Hair of the Cat Brewery, Chicago, IL Beer Reviewer at The Virtual Beer Garden, http://www.virtualbeer.com Home Pages: http://pubweb.nwu.edu/~ada775 Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:21:13 -0700 (PDT) From: keith christiann <kchris1 at lausd.k12.ca.us> Subject: Brewing Partner - CAP Hello all, I know this is not a personal add connection, but... I have not been brewing for a while for a variety of reasons. One reason is that I moved and my brewing buddies are too far away... But the main reason why is because I am visually impaired and I have not met/converted new friends into brewers (yet). As an all grain brewer, I need to be able to read a thermometer to hit my rests. In frustration, I figured out a way to solve my immediate dilemma--I will brew an extract batch of PA and use dry yeast.. I would like to hook up with a brewer that lives near Chatsworth CA interested in a brew buddy. I have a full on 3-tear system that needs some use... *** Classic American Pilsner I would like to brew a batch of CAP in honor of my child that will be here soon. I have never made a CAP and I'm looking for a bit of guidance. Please feel free to comment on grain, hopping, and yeast. For a 10 gallon batch, I am considering the following recipe/procedure: 15 lb. American 6 Row (will I need to adjust the gap on my Malt Mill?) 4 lb. Flaked Maize 15-min rest at 122 (should I skip this one) 15-min rest at 140 45-min rest at 158 10-min 168 Mashout Yeast: I have Wyeast 2112 available on slant but feel it may not be appropriate. I do like its clean taste. Or should I buy Wyeast 2007 and add it to my yeast bank? Hop to 30 IBU FWH Saaz or Styrian Goldings Bitter with Cluster Flavor with Styrian Goldings Saaz or EKG ?? knock out TIA Keith Christian Chatsworth CA kchris1 at lausd.k12.ca.us Home of the empty keg brewery ;-) 818 882-5681 Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:49:03 -0700 From: "LordPeter" <BARLEYWINE at prodigy.net> Subject: Passing the Peace Pipe Dear Everybody, I know when I am wrong. It's too bad it's only after I am wrong that I know. This whole percentage thing kinda went crazy. After looking back to the beginning I see that I misunderstood the whole point of this threads origin. I'll bet most recipes intend percent by weight, not extract. I stand by my opinion that there is a better way to develop your own recipes. But when publishing for the masses, percent by weight makes more sense due to its simplicity and ease of implementation. I became frustrated when several of you were pointing out to me that a small part of my calculations were incorrect. I thought I understood the meaning of CG:FG Diff, but enough of you assured me that I did not, (and Timo pointed to examples) that I do realize my error. Indeed, Spencer, I was making it more difficult. And, Jim, I only meant that I didn't understand why you said to go with the pros and ignore the homebrewer texts, when the pros I have spoken to and the homebrewer texts I have read are contradictory to your assertion. Nevertheless, the issue is not a hugely important one, and I didn't mean to raise my cuffs. So everybody pop one, snap one, and kick back. I'll continue to brew superlative suds with complete satisfaction that my methods work for me. Cheers. Peter Gilbreth barleywine at prodigy.net www.barleywine.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:01:38 EDT From: AlannnnT at aol.com Subject: mini keg extra curricular ideas Bret Morrow is looking for other stuff to do with his mini-kegs for variety. You can do alot with minikegs, risking less than a whole batch and no bottling time. The key here is that you get enough experimental beer to share, if it comes out well, and not too much to dump, should disaster strike. Easy trick- Make a wheat beer, add a different fruit extract to each mini-keg. Or prime with different fruit juices. {Pineapple juice should not be overlooked} All your non-brewing friends will think you are a brewing genius. Fancy trick- Make a dark Belgian ale, or a saison style, fully ferment, condition normally in the mini-keg. Attach the hand pump.. Draw off a pint. Leave the mini-keg with the headspace in the fridge for a month or so. The beer will slightly sour or "age". The resulting complex sour/tart beer can be astoundingly good. I have made my favorite homebrew this way. A dark dubbell with some candi sugar sweetness, aged until soured, tastes so good you will not believe your not on a farm in Europe. If you cannot leave a spare pump on your keg for a month, remove the tap and bung after you've drawn off a pint, then reprime with an ounce or so of sugar and re-bung. Re-tap in a month. If not sour enough, wait a little longer. Is that a new word, re-bung? Best Brewing, Alan Talman Seen on a bathroom wall- If pro is the opposite of con, what is the opposite of progress? Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:19:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com> Subject: Queen of beer Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... While we're on the subject of femme brewers, just let me reiterate the following regarding Kit Anderson: "She doesn't brew. No, er, what I mean is of COURSE she doesn't brew. No, no, no! That's not it! (Must be those aluminum pots again!) By God,SHE'S A HE!!!! (HOMEBREW Digest #1731 Mon 15 May 1995)" Let's just be careful out there... See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at oeonline.com Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..." Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:40:52 -0700 From: Laurel Maney <maney at execpc.com> Subject: chlorine pitting of stainless steel In my experience, pitting will occur where there is exposure to air, oxygen being the critical factor. Here's an example: at a large brewery where I worked, we installed a new beer supply line to packaging, but didn't use it for several months. It had been cleaned and left packed with a 20 ppm solution of chlorine, made up from soduim hypochlorite. Over the length of the run, tiny amounts of seepage at various valves must have introduced air. When we eventually tried to repack the line with beer, pinhole leaks showed up all along the length of the pipe, and it had to be replaced. I'd guess that the examples of pitting others have mentioned occurred at the air interface with the chlorine solution. Draining and air drying (or in this case, repacking with process water) would be the safest way to leave the equipment. It's pretty hard to completely exclude air from any system. Exposure for enough time to sanitize (~10 minutes) shouldn't hurt food grade stainless. I always try to keep in mind the following : you can't sanitize what isn't already clean and what's clean and sanitized is pretty unattractive for bugs to grow on. So prolonged soaking probably isn't necessary. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:45:34 -0700 From: Laurel Maney <maney at execpc.com> Subject: BU calculation for Rob in Toronto For whole hops the best utilization you can expect is about 5-8%, even when boiled for 60+ minutes - at least that I've ever heard of. Just as a rough estimate, a 30% utilization would be some four times too high: your real BUs would be about a quarter of the amount you calculated, which makes a lot more sense (about 20 BU). Just for the record, hop pellets yield much better (because the lupulin has been exposed prior to pelletizing and the pellet breaks apart more easily in the boil), at something like 8 - 20% utilization. 'Your milage may vary' because each brewing system produces unique results. (And this pinpoints the problem of calculating expected BUs - you just about have to get a few actual BU analyses to figure out what your average utilization is for different conditions. It's a chicken and egg sort of thing.....) Of course to really calculate expected BU, you have to know the % alpha acids in the hops - which you probably already have in the spreadsheet. Then you would use the following formula, based on the definition of 1 BU = 1 mg iso-alpha acids/liter wort or beer: (??? mg hops/??? L) X (??? mg alpha/100 mg hops) X (??? iso/100 mg alpha) = actual hops/total L % alpha acids in hops %utilization expected mg iso/L beer expected BU The volume should be your cooled wort volume, since subsequent processing losses won't change the concentration, only the final volume. You would have to calculate the contribution for each hop variety separately, if they have different alpha contents and boil times. The other interesting thing to consider is the loss of iso-alpha acids post kettle - in the fermenter foam, on the yeast, in any other foam generating episode, in filtration. So the % utilization you choose for the formula above will reflect not only kettle boil, but your overall experience with the particular recipe being used. In practice it's not usually worth trying to quantify the post kettle effect, but it might help explain results that come in markedly lower than you expected. BTW, I gotta say I love the metric system for brewing calculations! The Woodstock Brewer Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 00:11:12 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at ames.net> Subject: Jethro Has Lot's To Say...But Laurel Maney Sez More Jethro Has Lot's To Say...But Laurel Maney Sez More..... Gentlemen and Gentlewomen.... There is much to say in upcoming JG Reports.......including a report on the recent MBAA District Tech Session in Madison , Wisconsin.....but you folk's are already fortunate to be hearing from the Technical Organizer of that event, Laurel Maney.........she has forgotten more than most of us combined have yet learned..... Please welcome her warmly..... we are honored to have her here...... Jethro Gump "The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About Beer!" Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:07:32 -0700 From: "J. Kish" <jjkish at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Homebrew Soda To G.Gorman, My wife loves soda. I fill a Cornelious Keg with nice, filtered water, pressurize it to 18 psi, and in a few days it's the best club soda you ever tasted. Your brewing supply dealer can get you soda syrups; Cola, Root Beer, etc. Syrup in the glass, add club soda & ice, and your wife will be happy, too! Joe Kish jjkish at worldnet.att.net Return to table of contents
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