---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  amino acids and alcohols/light and yeast/#1338 and CO2/Altbiers! (Al Korzonas)
  re: Rauschbier (Lou.Heavner)
  mead clarification ("Richard Allison")
  Trace Minerals in Beer (AJ)
  1900's lagers ("Bret Morrow")
  Re: Single decoction (Scott Murman)
  protein rests (Scott Murman)
  Flaked Rice ("Chris Storey")
  Response to hbd # 2821, from 9/10/98 ("Fred M. Scheer")
  Re: trub in the starter (Jim Wallace)
  TSP Usage ("Marc Battreall")
  Re: Nitrogen Dispensing ("Paul E. Lyon")
  Re: Lagering in caves (Jeff Renner)
  more on drying hops ("Paul E. Lyon")
  PolyClar (Domenick Venezia)
  Yeast from MB (717) 787-4973" <BENDER.RODNEY at a1.pader.gov>
  Toasted Pale Malt in Extract Batches (Danny Breidenbach)
  Re: Adjunct question ("Curt Abert")
  Maine (JGORMAN)
  freezer repair threads (Joseph A. Clayton)
  re: Beer in Plastic Cups (John_E_Schnupp)
  Cincy Breweries (Dan Listermann)
  Autoresponder (Al Korzonas)
  Alt (Al Korzonas)
  Hop hater content (Ian Smith)
  Alt yeast (Al Korzonas)
  lagering in caves (Rick Jarvis)


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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:09:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: amino acids and alcohols/light and yeast/#1338 and CO2/Altbiers!

Steve writes:
>Where to get valine, leucine, isoleucine.  I'm not seriously suggesting
>this (yet) but the idea is that at higher concentrations these can reduce
>levels of n-propanol, isobutyl alc., 2-methyl-1-butanol and isoamyl alc.
>perhaps despite underpitching.  It may also reduce levels of
>phenyl-alcohols such as tyrosol, tho' this is not covered in the paper
>above.  You can get these at health food stores as well as chem supply
>houses - not cheaply tho'.
 
I have not read the articles yet, but I gather that they indicate that
increasing levels of amino acids DECREASES the production of some
higher alcohols.  I'd like to point out that both deficiencies and
*excesses* of amino acids can result in INCREASED higher alcohol production
[McFarlane, W.D. and M.B.Millingen, "The Aromatic Amino Acids in Alcoholic
Fermentations," ASBC Proceedings, 1964, pp.41-48] and [Engan, S., Chapter
3 in Pollock, J.R.A.ed., Brewing Science, Vol. 2 (Academic Press, London,1981),
93-157.].
 
Also, the fact that both too little and too much have an effect, my gut
feeling (often right) is that what is "just right" is highly strain
dependent.  My advice on this is: "know your yeast's nutritional needs and
don't presume that what works for one yeast will work for all strains."
 
***
Mike writes:
>Does light affect yeast
>growth, and should brewing be done in the dark, or is it OK to have a
>glass fermentation vessel standing in sunlight?  I havent seen anything on
>this in the texts I have read.
> 
>Thanks for all the great information
 
I don't know how great it is, but it is free information ;^).

I don't put hops in my starters, so I keep them in the light.  Light,
as far as I know, doesn't affect yeast, but it does affect isohumulone
in the beer, which leads to what we call "skunky" beer.  I don't know
if you have skunks in South Africa, but if you compare a bottle of
Heineken that has been in the dark all its life to one that has been
left in bright sunlight for two hours, you'll know what skunks smell like!

Because of this, you should keep your hopped wort (i.e. your beer) in
the dark during fermentation.

***
Matt writes:
>This reminded me of a question I've been meaning to ask. Do different strains
>yeasts produce more CO2, given the same conditions, than others? The reason I
>ask this is whenever I use Wyeast #1338 European Ale (one of my favorites),
>there is always a lot more CO2 in suspension in the beer (whilst still in the
>fermentors) than any other.

My gut feeling is that it may be related to the fact that #1338 is very
flocculent.  Because it flocculates out so readily and because CO2 evolution
does require some nucleation sites, it could very well be that your beer
is getting supersaturated with CO2 (i.e. the solubility of CO2 in the beer
is exceeded).  This is just speculation!

***
Matt also writes:
>I would like to hear more comments on the Alt hopping issue because the
>suggestions made in the recent Zymurgy article (re:very late additions) seem to
>contradict everything I've heard about Altbier hopping. AlK?

Very astute.  This leads me to...

Badger writes:
 
>Jealous Monkey Alt  - All Grain
>(5 gallon)
> 
>4 lbs Marris Otter Pale Ale Malt
>3 lbs Munich Malt
>1 lb German Light Crystal
>1/4 lb Chocolate Malt
>1 lb Brown Sugar
>1 lb Honey
> 
>1/2 oz. Northern Brewer Leaf Hops AAU 7.0        at  60 min
>1 oz Hallertau Hersbrucker Plug Hops AAU 2.6     at  60 min
>1/2 oz Hallertau Hersbrucker Plug Hops AAU 2.6           at  30 min
>1/2 oz Hallertau Hersbrucker Plug Hops AAU 2.6           at  2 min
> 
>Yeast: 2 packs Nottingham Dry, rehydrated.
 
(snip)
 
>questions:
>how close to style am i?

I'd say about 30%.  I suggest losing the *English* *Pale* malt and
replacing it with German Munich malt (yes... all Munich!).  I'd also
replace the Crystal malt with Munich malt too!  The 1/4# of chocolate
malt is acceptable.  I'd replace the Brown Suger and Honey with
 ... yes... two more pounds of Munich malt!  So, now we have 9# of Munich
malt and 1/4# chocolate malt.  NOW we're getting somewhere!

Now, you can safely triple your Northern brewer bittering hops.  Hop
flavour and aroma are not to style in a regular (non-Sticke) Duesseldorfer
Altbier, so lose the 30 min and 2 min additions.  Ideally, if you can
find Spalt hops, use 3 ounces of those at T-90 minutes.

>i think i used too much choc malt.

If you think so, but it is within what some brewers in Duesseldorf do.

>why did i get so little wort at end of boil?
>maybe i boiled a little too rigourous?

Either you boiled too long, too hard, with the lid off too much or
you didn't have enough runnings to begin with.

>should i have added water to the boil before i started?

It's better to add more runnings if your pH is not too high (check it
at the end of the sparge).

>how do i know when to stop draining from mash?

When you have enough wort in the kettle or when your pH gets too high.
Whichever comes first.  If you don't get enough wort and the pH is too
high, then acidify your sparge water next time (or, I suppose you could
acidify your mash now, but you would have to stir and then re-establish
your grain bed with recirculation before you continue to run off into the
kettle...)

>how can i get to 158 deg adding water? i only got 152..

Use more water or hotter water.  I don't recommend more than 2 quarts
per pound strike (initial) water.

>how can i tell if i did the right rest procedure of the which type of malt?

You can safely use a single-step infusion on all malts.  Your only risk
is getting a lot of break, but that's just an inconvenience and you get
it only with two or three malts out there.

***
On a related note, Andy writes:
>For my Holiday/Winter beer this year, I've pretty much settled on a Sticke
>(hihger-grav. Alt).  Nitpicky style question here -- are aroma hops
>"allowed"?   Or do the brewers play around more with these puppies?

Excellent choice!  Yes, aroma hops (dryhops, would you believe!!!) are
added by some of the brewers in Duesseldorf to their versions of Sticke
(which, incidentally, is sometimes higher gravity, sometimes not...
it's a special beer made *differently* from their regular Alt as a
reward to their regular customers).

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:47:13 -0500
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: re: Rauschbier

     From: "Riedel, Dave" <RiedelD at PAC.DFO-MPO.GC.CA> asks:

     >>>>>
     I had a quick look in the archives, but didn't find a lot
     of detail on Rauchbier formulation.  I understand that
     it should be generally in the Vienna style but assertively
     smokey from beechwood smoked malt.

     Can anyone suggest some grist percentages?  For
     example, using the Weyerman Rauchmalt.. do you
     simply use this for the base malt?
     <<<<<

     StPat's had a pretty good all-grain kit.  I believe they have modified
     it to boost the amount of Rauschmalt since I made it.  My first
     all-grainer was using their kit and doing some (too many) ;)
     decoctions, but the results were pretty good and even snagged a
     ribbon.  Their website gives the ingredients in their recipe.  The kit
     I used had 5# pilsner, 5# vienna, and 1.5# rauschmalt.  My
     brother-in-law liked mine and he did not like the rauschbier he had in
     Bamberg when he visited their because it was all too overpowering with
     smokiness.  So I suspect mine was probably "under-smoked" but the
     scoresheets did not indicate one way or the other.  It was actually
     pretty good and I was surprised at how many of my budmilloors swilling
     friends liked it!  The "bacony" aftertaste made it a great breakfast
     beer.  ;)

     Cheers!

     Lou - Austin, TX and enjoying the Ricky Williams Heisman watch


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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:14:34 -0700
From: "Richard Allison" <geobrewer at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: mead clarification

A general question to anyone with mead expereience.  I have a dry mead in
secondary which has been aging for four months.  I was planning on using
bentonite to clarify the mead since I had seen this suggested on hbd in the
past.  However I could not find that post of course.  If anyone has
suggestions on bentonite I'd appreciate it before I just going dumping it
in my batch.  
Also once I rack the now yeast-free mead to tertiary I had plans to sweeten
it a little with honey.  Any success stories in that deparment?
Thanks in advance.
Rick


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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 00:04:14 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Trace Minerals in Beer

Steve Alexander's curiosity with regard to trace minerals in beer piqued
mine so I spent the evening looking at the only beer I've got left in
the fridge (there's more in the fermenter). This is an old Pils (over a
year old) and, while it was made with DWC malt, please note that it is
not the same malt which I reported on a few days ago.

My analysis methods are all colorimetric: bicinchoninate for copper,
zincon for zinc and PAN for manganese. The color of beer throws the
bicinchoninate test for a loop. Therefore, I digested the beer sample
before analyzing it. As digestion intrinsically implies dilution I
evaporated 150 mL of beer down to about 17 mL then made back up to 25 mL
in the course of quantitative transfer. Five mL of the concentrate was
digested. This contains 5/25 of the metals in the original 150 mL of
sample and so is equivalent to digesting 30 mL of the beer. Digestion of
volumes larger than 5 ml of sugar-containing things like beer (and
honey) is nearly impossible with my gear.

The results:

Copper: 0.77 mg/L
Zinc:     0.29 mg/L
Mn:        0.55 mg/L

These values are similar to values for these metals given in M&BS. Note
that digestion breaks all organometallic bonds so that these values
represent _all_ of each of the metals in the beer, not just ions. I had
previously reported a beer zinc level about an order of magnitude less
than this. That measurement was on an undigested sample. This does not
necessarily mean that 90% of the zinc is bound because these were
different beers though made from the same recipe using the same
procedure.

Assuming that the average malt contains zinc at about the 85 mg/kg I
reported earlier that gives about 39 mg/lb. I use about 31 pounds of
malt to make 18 gal of wort for a wort concentration of  17.6 mg/L. A
beer reading of 0.3 mg/L implies that 98% of the zinc is lost somehow
during the brewing process. This is consistent with Steve's impression
that most of the zinc is removed. About 18% of the copper and 45% of the
manganese would survive based on the numbers I posted for the Pale Ale
malt concentrations of these elements about a week ago.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 21:37:04 PDT
From: "Bret Morrow" <bretmorrow at hotmail.com>
Subject: 1900's lagers

Greetings,

I have followed the history of lagers with some amusement.  Several 
posts have included sweeping comments like what follows:

"Naturally people would perfer the cleaner tasting lagers to the
ales back then, which no doubt quickly went sour and were
flavored with all kinds of root and herbs."

I highly doubt that all 1900's ales were infected, sour messes flavoured 
with bizarre herbs (like hops?)--generally English ales were consumed 
very young.  I would also like to remind lager brewers that a great deal 
of brewers and drinkers would rather an ale than a lager.  Personally, I 
blame the rise of lagers with both world wars, as well as the rise of 
communism and the decline of men wearing hats.  This may be because I 
have an natural, extremely sensitive, distaste for DMS--i.e. PU makes me 
say P.U.

In short, lagers have become the beer of the masses for a variety of 
reasons, however, to imply that ale, but not lager, brewers of the last 
century were all producing a product which was sour is misleading.

Ales go braugh,

Bret Morrow,
part of the minority writing from a humorous point of view

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:38:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: Single decoction

> I spend 10 or 15 minutes or so raising the decoction to a boil (I
> like to be gentle when heating decoctions)
>
> Scott Kaczorowski

Gentle with decoctions?!!  Yes, and be sure you don't stir too hard.
Hate to tussle those little husks.

SM


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Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:58:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: protein rests


George De Piro and I have been back and forth on this a number of
times, but it seems to have come up again.  One day I hope to have
George over to see if he can pick out which brews have used a protein
rest.  My money is on "no".  It is possible to make great beer using a
protein rest, even though "all modern malts are well modified".  I'm
sitting in front of a nice 7-month-old Chimay clone that used a 30
min.  protein rest, and has the typical Belgian head.  I don't
recommend that you make every beer using a protein rest, but I
wouldn't recommend that you avoid them altogether either.  To be fair,
I have a totally screwed up Bock that has lousy head retention, likely
due to about 1 hour in the 130-140F temp. range.  Experiment for
yourself, and be happy.   

SM (on second thought, George should have me over to drink *his* beer)





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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 03:00:52 -0400
From: "Chris Storey" <cstorey at nexicom.net>
Subject: Flaked Rice

I have been using rice syrup in my summer brews for a couple of years now.
I would like to use something else more user friendly. How about flaked
rice? Would I get the same results, or is it something different?
TIA
Chris Storey


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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 03:24:57 -0600
From: "Fred M. Scheer" <maltster at marsweb.com>
Subject: Response to hbd # 2821, from 9/10/98

Response to posting : Beer in Plastic Cups (Fred Johnson)

The question of drinking beer from plastic cups I gave up a long
time ago. After seeing customers adding salt; tomato juice; ice
cups into a good beer;   adding ice into a expensive wine=====
drinking temperatures for beverages in the 35* F range;
smooking; and so on;   a  Brewers work is turned upside down.
As I was informed, some states require that beer in beergardens
has to be served in plastic cups, because of insurance problems.
But, inside a establishment, I don't think it will be necessary
to destroy a brewers good day work by puring the nectar into
plastic ======> I will do as I done in the past = I ask for a
glass and educate the bartender; if he is not giving me a glass,
I will leave.

Fred M. Scheer
MALT MONTANA
maltster at marsweb.com
maltmt at marsweb.com


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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 16:53:11 -0400
From: Jim Wallace <jwallace at crocker.com>
Subject: Re: trub in the starter

>From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
> What about trub in the starter?  I usually obtain my
>starters from wort I can't get out of the kettle cleanly.  I either wait
>for the stuff to settle more or refilter this stuff, adjust to 1.040,
>add a pinch of yeast nutrient and autoclave.  Even though one round of
>hot and cold break removal has occured, the autoclaving produces a
>prodigious amount of precipitate.  This stuff settles fast, so unless
>you remove it before use you will be carrying it along with your yeast. 
>Should it be removed or is the volume small enough that the lipids it
>contains and their benefit to the yeast outweigh their potential flavor
>problems (yum, oxidized lipids being added to my beer....)?
 ......... my experience using extra wort and autoclaving results in a very
heavy trub deposit that settles well in 16oz juice bottles... I just pour
the wort off the top and get very clean wort for fermentations... I only
lose an oz of the freesh wort this way and this is a convenient quantity
___________________________________________
    JIM WALLACE ... jwallace at crocker.com
      http://www.crocker.com/~jwallace  
___________________________________________


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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:15:23 -0400
From: "Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: TSP Usage

Hello All,

I am trying to get away from using bleach in my brewing processes. Although
it works well for cleaning and sanitizing used in the proper proportions, I
think it has been the reason for some off flavors recently and want to try
an alternative cleaning agent.
I got a bunch of powdered, non-chlorinated TSP and was wondering what the
proper mixing rate was. I have searched through every brewing book and text
I have and have found nothing. I have been using it as a cleaning agent only
(not for sanitizing) at a rate of a couple of tablespoons in 5 gallons of
water and rinsing thoroughly with hot water with good results. The stuff is
cheap enough although the only place I have seen it is in mail order brewing
supply stores. Is there any other common place (i.e. K-Mart, hardware
stores, pool supply store) to get this stuff?

Could someone help me out with this?


Thanks in advance,

Marc

=======================
Captain Marc Battreall
Backcountry Brewhouse
Islamorada, Florida
batman at terranova.net
captainbrew at hotmail.com



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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:41:57 -0400
From: "Paul E. Lyon" <lyon at osb1.wff.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Nitrogen Dispensing

Brent,

    I just got back from my local welding supply company that now
distributes the mixed N2/CO2 gas.  They told me that you need a high
pressure regulator for this gas, since it is stored in liquid form in the
tank and has a pressure of ~2200 lbs/in^2.  My CO2 regulator only goes up to
2000, but I don't know if it can handle any higher than that, but you may
need a special regulator, which would cost around $75.  At my welding supply
company, the tanks have to be purchased, which costs an additional $100.
Secondly, you don't need the mix gas to get a creamy head on your stouts.  I
use just CO2 and a Murphy's Stout tap with a stout nozzle and get a nice
thick creamy head on all my stouts.  I even see the cascade of bubbles up
the side of the glass right after I pour, just like when I pour a can of
Guinness.

    I would try just using regular CO2 and a stout tap first, if you aren't
satisfied with the results, maybe then you can justify the added expense of
the mixed gas setup.


    Hope this helps.

 P.E.L.
- -----------------------------------
 - Paul E. Lyon EG&G Services Inc. -
 - Ocean Color Research            -
 - lyon at osb.wff.nasa.gov           -
- -----------------------------------





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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:49:21 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Lagering in caves

Eddie Kent <ebk1 at earthlink.net> writes:

>I can't think of the name of the brewery
>in Cincinnatti started by German immigrants that lagered in the
>limestone caves that the bluffs along the river provided- I think this
>brewery now produces beer amost exclusively for Sam Adams (but with
>modern refrigeration)-somebody help me out if they know the whole story.

That's the Hudepohl brewery, founded by Christian Mohrlein, and recently
bought by Sam Adams/Boston Brewing - owned by Jim Koch, who is a native
Cincinnatian (as am I).  It was the last brewery of many in Cincinnati and
just across the river in Kentucky.  When I was a kid in the fifties there
were perhaps five or six.  It has had excess capacity for decades as the
national brands swamped the local and regional ones.  I understand they
were trying to survive with contract beers, including Sam Adams, when Koch
bought them out.  I'm not sure which is the contract brew, now, Sam Adams
or Hudepohl.

There is a great history of brewing in Cincinnati, more of a sociological
and business history than a technical one, written by a history prof at the
College of Mt. St. Joseph on the Ohio.  Don't remember the name, but it's
great reading, especially if you know the city and/or love beer history.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:18:22 -0400
From: "Paul E. Lyon" <lyon at osb1.wff.nasa.gov>
Subject: more on drying hops



    Is there any reason, besides dry-weight vs. wet weight, and aged hops
vs. fresh hops flavor, why we couldn't just freeze fresh hops right off the
vine?  Since we don't know the bittering content of homegrown hops, wouldn't
a volume measure, say pint canning jars, or quart canning jars be just as
good as 1.5-2oz dry for hop addition estimates?  I have already dried all my
hops from this year, but next year, I plan to test a few containers of
fresh/frozen hops.  Has anyone else tried this?


Thanks,

 P.E.L.
- -----------------------------------
 - Paul E. Lyon EG&G Services Inc. -
 - Ocean Color Research            -
 - lyon at osb.wff.nasa.gov           -
- -----------------------------------





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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:00:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Domenick Venezia <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: PolyClar


Thanks George for pointing out that PolyClar works better if the beer is
cold.  It makes sense, but I hadn't thought of it. 

In #2821 "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com> said:

>A caveat about PVPP:  it is not meant to be consumed, and the FDA has 
>not approved it for use as an additive.  While some may not mind 
>clogging their intestines with plastic it is contrary to some of my 
>reasons for homebrewing.  Commercial breweries filter out the PVPP.  
>They actually wash it in caustic soda and reuse it; PVPP is expensive 
>stuff.

Now, don't anyone panic.  It is quite true that PVP it is not meant to be
consumed, but either is sand, and small quantities will certainly not hurt
you.  Talk about toxicity, for heaven's sake, people eat mayonaise!  In
your guts PVP is inert, and passes through unchanged.  The few percent of
a few tablespoons that may remain suspended in 5 gallons of beer most
certainly and assuredly will not "clog your guts".

And, as George points out commercial breweries reclaim the PVP for 
economic NOT health reasons.  

Domenick Venezia   demonick at zgi dot com



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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:10:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Rodney Bender (717) 787-4973" <BENDER.RODNEY at a1.pader.gov>
Subject: Yeast from MB

I am fortunate enough to get yeast from a micro here in Harrisburg.
I usually get about 8-10 oz. of slurry off the bottom of their fermentor.
Is this sufficient to pitch in a 5 gallon batch?  Should I do a starter
with this yeast, or should I just get a larger quantity of yeast from
them to pitch directly.  What are others doing? Any feedback is 
appreciated.

Rod Bender
The Brewmasters
Elizabethtown, PA



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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:42:16 -0400
From: Danny Breidenbach <DBreidenbach at nctm.org>
Subject: Toasted Pale Malt in Extract Batches

Al K's admonitions notwithstanding, I found that using toasted (in my oven) pale
malt in all extract batched produced yummy, pretty beer.  If you've got the
hankering to try it, do so.  I highly recommend it!
- --Danny
 


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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:48:40 -0500
From: "Curt Abert" <abert at flanders.isgs.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Adjunct question

Hi Y'all,

In HBD #2821, John Biggins wants to be humored about beans
as an adjunct.  I assume that you would be able to use beans to add
some fermentables; however, I would hope that would be all that the
beans add to the homebrew.  I've noticed that homebrew can result
in alot of gas, I would hope that beans would not contribute to that
as well.

What would you call a bean-laced brew?  Maybe the one from one of
Papazian's books "Cheeks to the Wind Mild"?  Rootin'-Tootin' Ale?
Ass-Blow Ale?

Curt Abert
Champaign, Illinois

someone had to say it.....


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Date: 10 Sep 1998 12:56:02 -0400
From: JGORMAN at steelcase.com
Subject: Maine


I am going to be in Bangor Maine in a couple of weeks.  I found two brewpubs
in the area.  Sea Dog Brewing and Bear Brewpub.  Does anyone know if one
stands out more than the other?  Or are there others in the area that I don't
know about?


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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:49:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: ak753 at detroit.freenet.org (Joseph A. Clayton)
Subject: freezer repair threads




In 2820, "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Writes:
>Apologies for all the bandwidth I've used recently, but I hope it's more
>interesting than on-line freezer repair threads,

In my opinion, no apologies are necessary and no it is not MORE interesting.

I an not a scientist and I don't play one on TV.  I've read yours and 
others in-depth scientific posts with interest but admittedly they 
usually blow right over my head.  I think the knowledge of the concepts 
are important in making better beer even though I don't really understand 
all the processes.

There are numerous mechanical aspects of brewing that are important in 
improving beer as well.  One of which is temperature control.  Some folks 
have big bucks tied up in fridges, freezers, temp controls, etc. and 
can't afford to junk what they have and replace it when something goes 
wrong.  I am a Handyman / Mr. Fixit type and find the current thread on 
repairing freezers both interesting and just as (ok maybe more in my case 
;-) ) relevant as the chemical process involved in forming phenolic 
compounds, etc.  I'd hate to see someone like our resident Fridge Guy, 
Forrest Duddles, feel like he needs to answer the occasional fridge / 
freezer question off line and therefore miss all of the details.

Forrest & Steve, Keep up the good work.

Cheers,

Joe C.



- --
Joe Clayton
Farmington Hills, MI  USA
ak753 at detroit.freenet.org or yyzclayton at aol.com (Preferred)
claytonj at cc.tacom.army.mil  (If you must)


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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:10:21 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: Beer in Plastic Cups

>I merely asked for a glass, and the
>bartender was happy to provide it.

Sometimes all you have to do is ask

>Probably most beer drinkers--including those patronizing a craft beer
>establishment--aren't as discriminating as we beer brewers.

I don't know your situation, but in my area there are bars/taverns that
have outside areas such as a patio or horse shoe pits.  These places
typically serve their beer is plastic (no glass outside).  Ask for
glass and they'll give it to you but you can't take it outside. FWIW.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200
 - --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina





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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:37:18 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Cincy Breweries

Eddie Kent asks about brewing in Cincy:

< Also, I can't think of the name of the brewery in Cincinnatti started 
by
German immigrants that lagered in the limestone caves that the bluffs 
along
the river provided- I think this brewery now produces beer amost
exclusively for Sam Adams (but with modern refrigeration)-somebody help 
me
out if they know the whole story.>

I don't know that Cincy has any great claim to have been in on the ground

floor of lager brewing.  I am sure that they were in it early though.

There aren't any limestone caves near Cincy, but many of the old 
breweries
dug tunnels into the hills that surround downtown.  My great-grandfather
Louis Listermann was a salesman for one called Felsenbrau - "Aged in the
hills!"

Hudepohl Brewing Co. was founded in the 1870s.  I am unaware of any of
their locations having access to tunnels, but it is possible that the 
Over
the Rhine site did.

Schoenling was founded in the 1950s.  These two breweries mearged in the
1980's to form Hudepohl - Schoenling, which did contract brewing for 
Boston
Brewing. They were recently bought out by Boston Brewing.  H-S is now a
contract / microbrewery.  Boston supplies the bulk of the H-S line, but 
H-S
also has a microbrewery for tax purposes.

Dan Listermann   ( dan at  listermann.com ) 


Check out our web site listermann.com  Don't forget - two "n"s.


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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:50:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Autoresponder

Dave writes:
(snip)
 ...Clinitest...
(snip)

Please see: http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/articles/clinitest.html

Al.

Al "open-minded skeptic" Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:33:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Alt

Mark writes:
>al k wrote, regarding recent alt fiction in zymurgy:
> 
>>I urge everyone to be wary of the recipes and guidelines presented in this
>>article and the book "Altbier" from whence this article was extracted.
> 
>it sounds to me like bt needs to send a correspondent to the fatherland to
>do one of their "styles" articles, to set the record straight.  (maybe
>they've already done this?)  volunteers?

They have already done this... alas, more fiction.  It was about three
years ago.  The author confused Duesseldorfer Altbiers with other Alts
in Germany and continued Charlie P's "most Alts are 25 to 40 IBUs" baloney.

I knew we were in trouble when the author misspelled "Zum Uerige" as 
"Zum Eurige"... *three or four times*!

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:50:12 -0600
From: Ian Smith <isrs at cmed.com>
Subject: Hop hater content

I have found the moisture content of my home grown hops to be between 70 to 
80%. Actually I average about 76%. I have heard that commercially they 
leave about 8%. My question: is it 8% of the ORIGINAL weight or 8% of the 
dried weight? I actually dried my hops so that there was no appreciable 
change in weight over a 2 hours period in my dehydrator. I then added back 
the 8% (of the original weight) and its a LOT of water - maybe way too much 
and the hops were very wet. What is wrong with removing all of the moisture 
anyway?

Ian Smith



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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:32:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Alt yeast

Mark writes:
>My question is about Al's suggestion to use
>> Wyeast #1338 European Ale  (NOT the over-attenuative and poorly-flocculating
>> Wyeast #1007 German Ale the author suggests)
> 
>I was rereading the Alt section of Ray Daniels' beer design book.  There is
>data from a long series analyzing 500 beers in the big German brewing journal.
>The typical apparent attenuation for the commercial Alts (including Zum Uerige)
>was about 80%.
> 
>Looking at the Wyeast web page, 1338 comes in at 67-71%AA which is the same
>as the 1968 London ESB listing!  Wyeast 1007 German Ale is listed at 73-77%AA
>which sounds closer to the commercial attenuation.  Ray recommended avoiding
>the low attenuation "European" yeast like Horst in Zymurgy.  Hmmmm?
> 
>Would Wyeast 2565 Kolsch be a good Alt choice?  This yeast description came
>closest to the various style descriptions I have seen for Alt.  I gather the
>"ancestry" is somewhat reasonable.  Unfortunately the flocculation is listed as

Some of the Altbiers I had in Duesseldorf (Fred, bring a hydrometer with
you!), were perhaps well-attenuated.  My favourite, Zum Uerige, was not,
to my taste buds, very attenuated.  I've spoken with Dave Logsdon on the
sources of his Wyeasts and while he won't give me specifics, he assures
me that #1338 (European) is from the town of Duesseldorf and both #1007
(German Ale) and #2565 (Koelsch) are from the town of Koeln.

You could use an attenuative yeast for an Alt, but my recommendation is to
use #1338 which gives a much maltier and less-fruity profile than either the
#1007 or the #2565 (thanks must go out to Steve Hamburg and Tony Babinec
for brewing a 15-gallon split batch with these three yeasts and bringing 
the three kegs of beer to a Chicago Beer Society meeting for us all to
taste!).  A drier Alt is not *wrong*, but the additional maltiness does
help to balance the intense bitterness better.

As for why the Piendl data (that's where Ray and James Spence (with whom
I argued about Altbier for years Re: the AHA guidelines)) seems to indicate
80% attenuation in Zum Uerige, I can only speculate.  I have three theories:

1. the tests were done near Munich, Zum Uerige is not pasteurised and is
CP-filled into 1/2-liter bale-top bottles (which are closed by hand...
really!... not very sanitary), and maybe some fermentation took place
in transit from Duesseldorf to Munich,

2. maybe the batch was not representative... the Piendl data also indicated
that Zum Uerige has 48 IBUs... when I asked the brewmaster at ZU about this,
he laughed and said "that was an odd batch... the bitterness is typically
above 50," or

3. maybe I'm wrong and Zum Uerige really has 80% Apparent Attenuation.

My guess is that it's some combination of 1 and 2, but I'm not yet
ruling out #3.

You may wonder why I'm so passionate about Altbier...  I'll tell you that
I wondered that about Roger Deschner when he used to rant and rave about
homebrewed Altbiers and the AHA guidelines being "completely wrong."
But then I visited Duesseldorf and tasted the beer and realised why
Roger was so passionaate about Altbier.  Of the homebrewers that I know
that have visited there, it's rare that it doesn't become one of their
favourite styles.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:47:10 -0400
From: Rick Jarvis <rjarvis at nauticom.net>
Subject: lagering in caves

Regarding lagering in caves, there are so many caves in St. Louis
that beer
was not taxed until it was transported on public streets. This led
to the
development of Pubs owned by breweries at the mouth of the caves.

If your in St. Louis there are 3 things you should do:
        Go up in the arch
        See the A-B tour, you also get the freshest A-B products you
ever
            had, 2 for free along with some neat history
        Go to Grants Farm, the home of the Busch's for a free animal

            parkland 2 more free beers

While, I am no Bud drinker, A-B has produced a Marzen back in the
late 80's
that was superb.

Regarding Cincinnati: While I lived there in the 80's I ran across a

doctoral these in the library on Brewing in Cincinnati before
Prohibition.
Yes the caves and the large number of GErmanic immigrants led
Cincinnati
(and Northern KY) to have more breweries than any city in the
country.

- --
Rick Jarvis
Wexford, PA
- ---------------------------------------------------
Alas, I have no signature.




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