---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  hbd# 2822, Sept 11, 1998 ("Fred M. Scheer")
  Rauchbier ("Braam Greyling")
  Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor, not a reviewer! ("Michel J. Brown")
  Nitrogen Dispensing... (Rich Byrnes)
  Spaten UR-MARZEN is my target.. (WayneM38)
  Secondary Ferment (Keith Busby)
  Pump and associated equipment (Steve Potter)
  re: kitty litter ("Spies, James")
  Altbier attenuation ("Jim Busch")
  Re: Flaked Rice (skotrat)
  Re: Rauchbier ("Jim Busch")
  Re: Green hops ("Michel J. Brown")
  RE: TSP Usage (Gary H Nazelrod)
  RE: TSP usage ("Mercer, David")
  Low color lagers ("David R. Burley")
  Sparkling Mead, Cleaning Cobras,Pfft, ("David R. Burley")
  Clinitest and Commercial Beers ("David R. Burley")
  vigorous boiling (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
  TSP and sanitation (Some Guy)
  Re: Alt yeast (Scott Murman)
  Rauchbier grist percentages ("=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ari_J=E4rm=E4l=E4?=")
  rauchbier ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Your Homebrew Digest (David Ashwell)
  Dry Hops (Paul Niebergall)
  re: Beer in Plastic Cups (Jonathan Edwards)
  Spaten UR-MARZEN is my target.. (WayneM38)
  yeast (" Scott Perfect")


Let a good beer be the exclamation point at the end of your day as
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 23:19:49 -0600
From: "Fred M. Scheer" <maltster at marsweb.com>
Subject: hbd# 2822, Sept 11, 1998

AL  WROTE:
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 18:32:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Alt yeast
Some of the Altbiers I had in Duesseldorf (Fred, bring a hydrometer with
you!), were perhaps well-attenuated. 


Fred's response:

Looking at the posting, ..............I will do so, Al.

Fred


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:26:38 +200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azona.com>
Subject: Rauchbier

Hi,
  
   From: "Riedel, Dave" <RiedelD at PAC.DFO-MPO.GC.CA> asks:

     >>>>>
     I had a quick look in the archives, but didn't find a lot
     of detail on Rauchbier formulation.  I understand that
     it should be generally in the Vienna style but assertively
     smokey from beechwood smoked malt.

     Can anyone suggest some grist percentages?  For
     example, using the Weyerman Rauchmalt.. do you
     simply use this for the base malt?
     <<<<<

Quick answer:
I have got a bag of Weyermanns Smoked malt which I use occasionally 
for Rauchbeers and smoked ales.
DONT use too much. The beer will taste terrible.
I never use more than around 8% and let me tell you , you have to 
leave the beer for quite some time to smooth out when you use this 
amount.

To start with I would use around 3%. 
Take your favourite Vienna or Octoberfest recipe and substitute some 
of the pale lager malt with the smoked malt.


Hope this helps.

Regards


Braam Greyling      
Snr. Design Engineer
Azona(Pty)Ltd     
tel +27 12 6641910  fax +27 12 6641393


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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 03:16:30 -0700
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor, not a reviewer!

Nonetheless, I'll shall endeavor to elucidate the sensorineural 
conclusions of several brews I have tried most recently. First was Devil 
Anse. They make a splendid porter which reminds me of London near Hyde 
Park, but I digress. It's a well balanced brown porter of the London 
Style, with great malt and hop aroma, balanced with a nice malty/bitter 
flavor that finishes with a fullness that leads to a smoky aftertaste. 
The other beer of theirs I tried was the Tasmanian Pale Ale, which, sad 
to say, is a disappointment, especially after having tasted their most 
excellent porter. It claims to use Tasmanian hops, but it tasted more 
like what a Tasmanian devil smells like. The malt was subdued, with thin 
body, and pleasant hop bitterness which led to a kind of drying feeling 
on my tongue, but not quite what you would call astringent. 

The next beer on my list was the superb Cowboy lager from Texas Brewing 
Co., which appears to be in the CAP style. Can you say DMS? It nearly 
blew my socks off, but the pungently bitter hopping more than 
complemented the sweet creamed corn taste. Medium bodied with a nice 
long finish that ends with a lingering sweetness on the tongue. Jeff R, 
you gotta try it, you'll like it!

Another beer which was my chagrin to try was the Damm Fine Beer by Herr 
Damm Brewing in Tampa Fla. Another CAP, minus the DMS, but with added 
Corona for that pole cat smell and flavor X*P 'nuff said?

Nor'Wester just released their recent Oktoberfest beer (one of the 
"promise" series brews), and as far as amber lagers go, it's ok, I 
guess, but I wouldn't call it a fest beer by any means. Color and head 
are right, but the malt is too subdued and the hops too pronounced for a 
fest style beer IMHO. I like the beer as it stands, but if consumed in a 
blind tasting panel, I'd hesitate to call it a fest beer -- more like a 
Muenchner, or Dortmunder Dunkle than a true Oktoberfest. I'll stick with 
Paulaner, or my personal favorite Wurzburger.

                Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C. {Portland, OR}
      2222 miles due west of Jeff Renner
                         homemade at spiritone.com
              http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
    "In the field of observation, chance favors only the prepared mind"
          L. Pasteur 


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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:51:30 -0400
From: Rich Byrnes <rbyrnes2 at ford.com>
Subject: Nitrogen Dispensing...

Brent Oberlin asks about stout faucets and Nitrogen dispensing...


I have a 4 tap fridge (my baby!) with 1 stout faucet on it.  I purchased
my faucet from Banner (part # 50301 for $69) phone 8000-621-4625.  This
is a nice chrome/black plastic faucet I selected because it has a
VARIABLE restrictor plate, kind of ideal for homebrewers who have more
variables than guiness.  I have a 2nd CO2 tank with a 70/30% N2/C02
blend dedicated for this tap.  I carbonate and dispense at 38 lns
preessure and get a BEAUTIFUL creamy head and the trademark "dancing
bubbles of Guiness"

Rich Byrnes
Founder/President
Fermental Order of Renaissance Draughtsmen
Dearborn, MI





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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:11:42 EDT
From: WayneM38 at aol.com
Subject: Spaten UR-MARZEN is my target..

To all:

For better or worse, I usually measure my homebrew against commercial
examples. During the last few weeks one of my favorite test sites (AKA Ray's
Liquor Store) offered Spaten Oktoberfest.

The Spaten version has the sweetness/malt balance that I want in my version.
For those who have not had a fresh bottle, certainly seek it out this time of
year.
I have the Fix book on Oktoberfest and there are a few variations of the
style.
Does any one have any direct info or at least best guess on just what
specialty malts that are used?  Just purchased a bag of German pils malt and
having difficult time finding the German crystal used in style guide.  Will
travel a bit today on a supply quest to a shop that offers dark German
crystal.

I have a bottom heated/ HERMS heated RIMS system and did read the Brewing
Techniques (Vol 6, No 1) article regarding RIMS/Decoction tests. Hope to do
some batch testing on my system since I can try infusion using HERMS, use the
bottom heated mash tun or a decoction using the same system.

The sweetness/roundness of the dry finish is what I am looking for.

Any help will be appreciate.  

Wayne
Big Fun Brewing
Milwaukee, WI


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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:01:33 -0500
From: Keith Busby <kbusby at ou.edu>
Subject: Secondary Ferment

I am about to add champagne yeast to secondary to finish off a Barley Wine.
Should I aerate or just swirl to get the new yeast suspended?

Keith Busby


Keith Busby
George Lynn Cross Research Professor
Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies
University of Oklahoma
780 Van Vleet Oval, Room 202
Norman, OK 73019
Tel: (405) 325-5088. Fax: (405) 325-0103


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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:34:53 -0500
From: Steve Potter <spotter at meriter.com>
Subject: Pump and associated equipment

Dear collective,
I am putting a March 809 PL-HS to work in my system. Initially I will only
be moving sparge water, but I later hope to move both hot and cold wort.
 Several questions come to mind: 
1.  What is the best material for hose?  I can get Silicone, Neoprene, or
Teflon.  Is any one of these better than the other?
2. I am thinking of using quick disconnects (QDs) to make it easier to
remove the hoses.  My thought is that it would make cleaning easier and
allow for a little greater flexibility in how I set up the system.   Is this
wise?  Do QDs interfear with cleaning?  Would they likely seal well
enough to prevent HSA?  What other options are available? 

Steve Potter
Madison, WI


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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:49:19 -0400
From: "Spies, James" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: re: kitty litter

Richard posted in #2822 about a non-clearing mead . . .

Leave bentonite for the cat litter (it's the main ingredient in
"clumping" cat litter).  Although effective, it has the general
consistency of sewage sludge once added to your mead, and makes racking
a nightmare (especially if your secondary is in a carboy).  Be patient,
time WILL clear your mead.  I had a cyser in the secondary for over six
months before it showed *any* signs of clearing.  It will clear though.
Cold tempertures will help.  Just forget about it for awhile.  My cyser
was so milky that you couldn't shine a flashlight through it, but now
it's crystal clear.  I added nothing but time.

As for sweetening, I presume you used a champagne-type yeast.  If this
is the case, use about a teaspoon of potassium sorbate to prevent
refermentation *once fermentation has stopped*.  Make sure that this has
happened.  PS will prevent *refermentation*, but will not *stop* an
active fermentation.  The cloudiness of your mead leads me to believe
that fermentation may be *trickling* along, albeit very slowly.  Once it
has ceased, add your honey 1/4 to 1/2 # at a time until you get the
desired level of sweetness.  However, be forewarned that if you use PS
and want a sparkling mead, you will have to artificially carbonate (and
CP bottle).  If you don't have that capacity, you will either have to
settle for a still mead or forget the PS and add honey until
fermentation seems about ready to peter out and then add some priming
sugar and bottle, but this is *tricky* to figure out (yeasties are
fickle creatures).  I would suggest avoiding this if possible because of
the risk of grenades as well as the fact that with a champagne yeast,
you may end up with ~18%-20% alcohol before the yeast gives up the
ghost.  (This may or may not be a bad thing.     ;-)

Hope this helps --

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:02:19 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: Altbier attenuation 

Al has posted several items recently regarding Dusseldorfer Alts and 
in general I agree with almost all of Als advice.  Use lots of Munich 
malts, hop after forming a hot break with Spalt, Hallertauer and/or 
Tettnangs and boil em 60-75 mins.  Avoid late hopping.  Dornbusch's 
book does include some strange recipes to me (the one on Zum Uerige 
in particular seemed quite odd but then the author spent a day 
brewing with them so one would think he got the grist ratios close 
but I really dont know).  One recipe that did look authentic was the 
one provided by the brewmaster of Schumacher where he calls for all 
Munich malts but of slightly lighter color than typical.  I would use 
this but add some German dark malt too.  The odd ball part of 
this recipe was another suggestion for late hopping which I have to 
wonder might just be an attempt at deception by the brewmaster.

Now, Al and I have had discussions in the past regarding the 
attenuation (ADA) of Alts and I have to again disagree with him and 
side with the data presented by Piendl (a noted brewing authority 
too) and say that I am not at all surprised that Alts come in at 
77-80% ADA.  Lets look at the numbers.  Alts are no more than 12P 
stammwuerzen (OG) and I recall the Piendl data reporting 11.8P which 
seems right on.  Lets assume we start with 12P and ferment down to 
2P, this would give one 83% ADA and over 5% ABV, too high in alcohol 
for the style and too high as labelled on the beers in the Altstadt.  
(ABV levels are typically 4.5-4.8% for the Altstadt hausbraueries).  
If we start at 11.8P stammwuerzen and end at 2.5P then we achieve 
78.8% ADA and roughly 4.8% ABV, which is very close to specs.  Given 
a stammwuerzen of 11.5-11.8P and an ABV of 4.5-4.8 then we must have 
ADA in the range of 75-78%, fairly high.   I have brewed alts of this 
type and achieved over 80% ADA by incorporating a beta amylase rest.  
I would still aim in practice for closer to 78% ADA.  As for a 
bottled alt continuing to attenuate before sampling I would reject 
this due to the filtration employed after the beer is at terminal 
gravity.  Filtration of alts can be important, especially if one is 
using a true Dusseldorfer alt strain that demonstrates poor 
flocculation.

As for malty finish, mouthfeel and ADA I will once again point out 
that one of the maltiest beers produced are the Munchner Maerzens 
that achieve relatively high ABVs from a stammwuerzen of 13- 14P.  
Maerzens are also highly attenuated yet very malty.  Another good 
example is found in Weissbiers, with 80-86% ADA.

One of my most common suggestions to newer brewers is to not be 
afraid of a well attenuated beer, in fact a beer that does not 
attenuate well will often be perceived as 'worty' in flavor.  (This 
is also a pet peeve of mine in the brewpub industry where too many 
amber ales are just not well balanced and too worty).  To achieve 
this one must of course be cognizant of yeast strains, pitch the 
proper cell counts and use lots of oxygen.  Aside from that one must 
also carefully consider both the recipe formulation as well as the 
mash programs to hit the intended targets.  In general if a beer ends 
at 4P or higher there was some defect in the brewhouse procedures.  
(of course exceptions abound from Scotch Ales to BarleyWines to 
Imperials etc).

Prost!

Jim Busch



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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:06:14 -0500
From: skotrat at mediaone.net
Subject: Re: Flaked Rice

Chris Wrote:

:I have been using rice syrup in my summer brews for a couple of years now.
:I would like to use something else more user friendly. How about flaked
:rice? Would I get the same results, or is it something different?

I have been experimenting with flaked rice for quite a while and I must say
that it is pretty cool stuff. I have noticed some differences between it and
the rice syrup available to homebrewers.

1. Flaked rice seems to produce a cleaner beer
2. Flaked rice seems to produce a clearer beer
3. I can control my extraction much better with flaked rice

I can also say that flaked rice in  a proportion of more than 12% to the
rest of the grain bill starts to react like Elmers (sp?) Glue and can become
problematic. If I had me druthers I would stick to Flaked Maize for all my
Pre-Prohibition Pilseners. 

Unfortunately I like the color (or lack of color) that the Flaked Rice gives
the brew. Although from my readings Rice should give no flavor... I do
believe that some flavor is given to the beer by the rice. 

C'ya!

 -Scott "Plaid is a beautiful thing!" Abene
################################################################
#                     ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT                        #
#                Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>            #
# http://www.wwa.com/~skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)  #
#                                                              #
#                                                              #
# "The More I know About Cathy Ewing, The More The AHA SUCKS"  #
################################################################



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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:11:50 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: Re: Rauchbier

To the person inquiring about Rauchbier and Weyermann malts:

I would suggest using between 50 and 95% Rauchmalz, but then I like 
the authentic in your face versions like Brauerei Heller-Trum of 
Bamberg.  Be sure to lager well and use a Maerzen recipe with a 
moment of silence for the hops.

I recently judged best of show at the local fair.  We awarded the 
overall first ribbon to a Rauchbier made from home smoked malts.  I 
asked the brewer how he made it and he said he took wet pils malt and 
smoked it over a hickory fire.  The results were outstanding.

Prost!

Jim Busch


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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:35:37 -0700
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: Re: Green hops

Coincidentally, I just got back from Yakima the other day, and had the 
tour of Bert Grant's brewery. He took us out into the hop fields where 
we saw fresh hop vines growing, and being harvested. He harvests fresh 
hops for his seasonal single hop brew that he brews every year at hop 
harvest time. This year is Galena hop time, and he pulled a truckload of 
fresh Galena hops to be sent to the brewery. When I asked him how much 
fresh vs. dried hops were used, he flatly stated "...around 18~20 times 
as much fresh hops are required than dry..."
I guess that would either indicate the variability of hops from season 
to season, or just the drying rates. Also, the hop farmer said they 
spread out the hops 2~3 *feet* deep in a hot room (140'F!) for 24 hours 
before they are baled in 200# bales, and sent to breweries around the 
world (Yakima has 30% of the world market, and 75% of the domestic 
market for hops). The smell was INTOXICATING!!!

                Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C. {Portland, OR}
      2222 miles due west of Jeff Renner
                         homemade at spiritone.com
              http://www.spiritone.com/~homemade/index.html
    "In the field of observation, chance favors only the prepared mind"
          L. Pasteur


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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:09:55 -0400
From: Gary_H_Nazelrod at tst.tracor.com (Gary H Nazelrod)
Subject: RE: TSP Usage

In HBD 2822 "Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net> asks:
>Is there any other common place (i.e. K-Mart, hardware
>stores, pool supply store) to get this stuff?

I buy TSP in the paint department of Home Depot.  I have seen it in other 
hardware and paint stores too.  

Gary Nazelrod
Silver Spring MD


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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:27:40 -0700
From: "Mercer, David" <dmercer at path.org>
Subject: RE: TSP usage

Mark asks about TSP usage and a cheap source -

I used to use bleach for most things, too. Then I bought a 5# tub of
TSP-90 at a local K-Mart type store months ago for about $5. I found it
in the paint supply section. It is not TSP, but TSP substitute with the
same active ingredient as 5 Star cleaner (sodium metabisulfate, or a
name like that). I use about a quarter cup, added to hot water to fill,
to clean a heavily encrusted 6.8 gallon glass carboy, or a 5 gallon
corny. A half hour soak is enough to totally dissolve thick kreuzen
crust in a fermenter. When I first bought the stuff, I ran a gallon of
hot water with 2 tbs of powder through my CF chiller (followed by a
couple of gallons of boiling water to rinse). Man was I embarrassed and
disgusted by the chunks of crap that came out. I thought I was pretty
good about keeping things clean, but using that TSP/90 told me I had a
ways to go. Now I use it on everything - even plastic airlocks. But only
as a cleaner, not a sanitizer. And I rinse whatever I've cleaned really
thoroughly. That 5# tub is almost empty, but it has been the cheapest,
easiest cleaning agent I've found. Much cheaper than the single serving
packets of 5 Star I've seen in HB shops (I know it is available in bulk,
too, but I've never seen it. I presume the bulk price is closer to what
I paid for the TSP/90.)

Of course, next week I'll probably read that prolonged exposure causes
testicular cancer or something equally gruesome. But at least my brewing
equipment will be clean.

Dave M. in Seattle.





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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:21:30 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Low color lagers

Brewsters:

All this discussion of the development of BLOND lagers' origins
confuses a few of things in my opinion.

1) It is true that lagers ( i.e. cold stored beers) had been known
for many ,many years in Germany and Austria, since March brewed
beers ( Marzen) were carted to ice caves for summer storage and
thus became consumed at  Octoberfest - the harvest festival and the
 beginning of the new year of brewing as farmers became brewers
again for the winter months. These beers were not necessarily
( and unlikely) brewed with Lager yeasts as we now know them.

Some of these yeast adapted ( or were included accidentally)  to
these low temperatures and the beers dried out and many of the
by-products of higher temperature fermentation were consumed
by the yeast, making a cleaner tasting beer. These beers were still
not blond colored and were mostly like Dunkle Munich beers and the
like.

2) It is true that refrigeration made it possible to ferment beer at
cold temperatures in Peoria and Atlanta any time of year and thus
yeasts able to ferment at these low temperatures ( which
produce fewer by-products) were desirable. As were the yeasts
which could consume the aldehyde by-products of fermenation.

3) It is also true that the Industrial revolution with its coal and steam

heated ovens <with temperature control> made the production of high
enzyme and simultaneously low in color malt which could be brewed
as a low color beer. Thus the low color and flavor of the malt
accentuated the low flavor of true lager yeast fermented and stored cold.


The point is - as often the case in new developments - a number
of independent developments are necessary to make progress.
The genius is in combining these developments under one roof.


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:21:33 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Sparkling Mead, Cleaning Cobras,Pfft,

Brewsters:

Mike Butterfield says:

>I have a question about priming mead. 

>.....  Will there still be active 

>yeasts around to carbonate within the bottle? 


I suggest you hedge your bets and pitch an active Sacc. Bayanus
( used in Champagne)  when you prime.

> Is mead normally fizzy like 

>champagne or flat like wine.

Most commercial mead is not carbonated.

>My first melomel is fermenting nicely and 

>will be ready for bottling in a week or two.

If you really are at 12- 15% alcohol as you say, I would recommend
clarifying this fermentation with Bentonite ( to remove protein haze)
in the fridge for a week ( to induce cold stability) after the 
fermentation
is complete ( Clinitest < 1/4%), racking and then pitching
a fermenting starter of S. Bayanus along with your priming sugar. 


Richard Allison says:

>  If anyone has
>suggestions on bentonite I'd appreciate it before I just going dumping 
it
>in my batch.  


To use Bentonite take about a heaping tablespoon and boil it for
5 minutes in about a pint of water with stirring. Cover and allow to
swell overnight. Mix it with some mead and introduce it into the
main batch of mead the next day with agitation. Allow to settle a
week or so and then rack.
- -------
Gary Nazelrod in responding to a question on off flavors resulting
from allowing beer to stand in Cobra beer delivery spigots says:

"The tap needs to be COMPLETELY disassembled to be cleaned."

I used to do that, but now I use a Carbonator from Liquid bread
attached to liter plastic soda pop bottles filled respectively with
dilute bleach solution and the other with fresh clean water.  I snap
the Cobra onto the Carbonator which is on the bleach/water bottle,
open the spigot on the Cobra and squeeze the bottle until all the
beer is pushed out and the bleach solution comes out the spigot.I
 then blow the line out by squeezing the bottle with the bottom down,
so air gets pushed into the Cobra tube and spigot and clears it of
the majority of the bleach solution. I then rinse a liter of water 
through
and blow it out.

Much easier and faster (less than a minute) than disassembling
and less chance of losing parts down the drain - especially after a
few beers. Never had a problem with off tastes.
- ----------------
AlK suggests Steve mark out a paragraph in Miiler's book which
suggests that it only takes a couple of days to get carbonation in the
bottle after priming.  The way most homebrewers brew and allow
the yeast to settle out of beer in the secondary before priming and
bottling, I agree it can take several weeks to carbonate a beer.

If you pitch an actively fermenting priming starter as I have suggested,
and keep it off the concrete floor as AlK suggests, this time is reduced
considerably and best of all it gives reliable carbonation.

Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:21:28 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Clinitest and Commercial Beers

Brewsters:

Cheers to Steve Alexander for exploring the results of Clinitest
on commercial beers. Unfortunately, these results may or may
not be meaningful as a means of evaluating Clinitest or my
observation that, in my experience of several decades, a reading
of <1/4% glucose indicates the fermentation is finished.

Commercial beers may not always be fermented to dryness,
since commercial breweries use filtration and centrifugation to
clarify their beers. This will remove the yeast toward the end of
the fermentation and the beer may not be totally finished dry.

Steve's results are very interesting, but they do not indicate a fault
in Clinitest, rather, perhaps in Steve's interpretation of his results
based on his implied ( but unstated) assumption that all
commercial beers are fermented dry. I know of no publication that
asserts this.  In fact, if you read DeClerk you will find that it is
common for beers to not be fermented out fully because of
premature yeast flocculation. This would be more comon for
higher gravity beers, since they ferment longer ( more yeast
settling) and in the case of ales, which use highly flocculant yeast.

An interesting experiment would be to carry out two identical
fermentations with flocculant yeast ( say 1338), one in which
the fermentation was stirred periodically and the other in which
it was not. Follow the fermentation towards the end with Clinitest.
My experience ( and DeClerk's) tells me that if you use highly
flocculant ale yeast and a gravity in the range of 1.065, you will
see a big difference and the stirred batch will finish at <1/4%
( my prediction, not DeClerk's) and the unstirred one may not -
depending on batch size, temperature, etc. 


In my own work, I have found that to get from a Clinitest reading of
about 1/2% to one of < 1/4% will require nearly a day under my
normal fermentation conditions.  Not that my conditions are anywhere
similar to a commercial brewery. But if such a situation exists, then
it is easy to see that cutting a day off the occupancy of the 
fermentation
vessel by filtration or centrifugation of each batch of beer before it is

finished could be a substantial benefit to brewers' profitability.

I issued a similar caution some weeks ago when Clinitest was
used to measure the primed, carbonated home brewed beer. It is
quite likely that unless an active yeast culture is introduced into the
beer at priming, that some priming sugar will remain. If glucose
( corn sugar) was used as the primer then it is lilkely that the bottled
beer will have a higher sugar Clinitest reading than the finished beer!
This, of course, is a very useful piece of information that should 
inspire
you to re-examine your bottling techniques.

I have always recommended Clinitest as a method of indicating that the
fermentation was finished when the glucose level was <1/4%.
(SteveA try it on your own batches - even the high gravity beers
but before bottling) I see nothing in Steve's work that would prompt
me to change that recommendation. However, I also encourage the
exploration of the use of Clinitest in finding out what is happening to
glucose in other phases of brewing.

Just remember that it is extemely unlikely that Clinitest with its
history of nearly a century in Chemistry is wrong. It is most likely,
when we get an "unusual" result, that our explanation and
understanding has to change or at least be re-examined.


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:43:39 -0400
From: "Bayer, Mark A (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
Subject: vigorous boiling

collective homebrew conscience:

al k wrote recently:

>Either you boiled too long, too hard, with the lid off too much or you
didn't have enough
>runnings to begin with.

this was in response to why the post-boil quantity of wort was too low.
al's answer is strictly correct, but i have a further question based on the
following premise:  fixing the amount of wort quantity at the end of the
boil is easy enough to do with more runnings from the sparge bed (assuming
gravity/ph stay high/low enough), or with treated brewing water (ph
adjusted).

given this, are there any detriments to boiling as vigorously as you can?
i've always thought the harder the better.  somewhere i remember reading
that you can boil too *long* and mess up the hot break (truth?fiction?), but
given a 90 minute boil, is it possible to boil too hard and have negative
flavor consequences?

brew (and boil?) hard,

mark bayer




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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 13:21:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: TSP and sanitation

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Marc Battreall asks about TSP.

I use the "degreasing" mix as noted on the package on my brewing 
equipment. I'd have to brave the basement at the moment to read the 
directions, and the basement, in the midst of being painted, is in a foul 
mood. As I recall, it is a couple of tablespoons per 5 as you note. I'm 
unsure from your post whether or not you believe it to be a sanitizer as 
well. Just in case: it is not. Also, be sure to rinse the stuff 
THOROUGHLY off of your equipment.

TSP is traditionally a preparatory wash for painting. You *should* be able
to find it in the paint section of any major department or hardware/home
improvement store. Usually in a powder blue-and-white box. Be sure it is
Tri-Sodium Phosphate, though. There is an imposter carrying the letters
TSP which is _not_ TSP (tri-sodium phosphate). Good hint as to whether or
not you've encountered an imposter is whether or not phosphates have been
banned in your particular area... 

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:49:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: Alt yeast


> I've spoken with Dave Logsdon on the
> sources of his Wyeasts and while he won't give me specifics, he assures
> me that #1338 (European) is from the town of Duesseldorf and both #1007
> (German Ale) and #2565 (Koelsch) are from the town of Koeln.

You can get the authentic Zum Uerige yeast from a bottle of Widmer
Hefeweizen.  It is also the White Labs American Hefeweizen strain,
WLP320.  See my web page http://www.best.com/~smurman/zymurgy for more
yeast secrets revealed.  This is a great, strong yeast, and yes, it
makes a great Alt.  From memory, my last Alt with this yeast went from
1.050-1.011, and I was actually shooting for it to end a couple of
points lower.  Jeremy Bergsman, did you ever get around to trying this
strain?

SM


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Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 00:36:14 +0300
From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ari_J=E4rm=E4l=E4?=" <jarmala at pcuf.fi>
Subject: Rauchbier grist percentages

"Riedel, Dave" asked about Rauchbier:

>Can anyone suggest some grist percentages?  For
>example, using the Weyerman Rauchmalt.. do you
>simply use this for the base malt?  

The instruction says: "Use up to 100%". But I'd like to suggest some 
trials with different percentages, because YTMV. I have never brewed 
with (this) Rauchmalz, so I can't share any formulations.

Rgs,  Ari Jarmala (the a's are umlauted)



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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:01:58 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: rauchbier

>From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
>     From: "Riedel, Dave" <RiedelD at PAC.DFO-MPO.GC.CA> asks:
>
>     >>>>>
>     I had a quick look in the archives, but didn't find a lot
>     of detail on Rauchbier formulation.  I understand that
>     it should be generally in the Vienna style but assertively
>     smokey from beechwood smoked malt.
>     Can anyone suggest some grist percentages?  For
>     example, using the Weyerman Rauchmalt.. do you
>     simply use this for the base malt?
>     <<<<<
>     StPat's had a pretty good all-grain kit.  I believe they have modified
>     it to boost the amount of Rauschmalt since I made it. ...The kit
>     I used had 5# pilsner, 5# vienna, and 1.5# rauschmalt.  My
>
I thought that a Rauchbier was a smoked dunkels. If so, then
it sounds like this recipe will be too pale.  Am I wrong?

Also, how does the "intensity" of smoke flavor in this Rauchmalt
compare to the "intensity" of the peat smoked malt (forgot
the maltster)? I find almost all beers I've tried with the peated
malt to be very overpowering--is it the peat smoke flavor that
I don't like or is the peated malt more intense?

thanks.
>     Cheers!
>
>     Lou - Austin, TX and enjoying the Ricky Williams Heisman watch
Yea, it would be nice if Ricky can do it--as long as he gets shut down
by A&M in Austin!

  - Bryan

Bryan Gros	gros at bigfoot.com
Oakland, CA
Visit the new Draught Board homebrew website:
http://www.valhallabrewing.com/~thor/dboard/index.htm



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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 06:03:32 +1000
From: David Ashwell <aqua at netinfo.com.au>
Subject: Your Homebrew Digest

Dear Sir

I am an avid home brewer from Australia. In Australia we have only one
variety of ho, "Pride of Ringwood" from which to brew our beer. We are
looking for rhyzomes fron several varieties such as Saaz, Teternang,
Hersbrucker, Willimette, cascade etc.

Are you able to tell me where I can source them from, and how do I get a
letter into the HOMEBREW Digest?


Yours sincerely




David Ashwell





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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 14:11:42 -0500
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: Dry Hops

George De Piro writes:

>There is no guess work needed.  Accurately weigh out ~50g of fresh 
>hops.  Dry them.  Weigh them again.  The difference in weight is the 
> moisture content.  You can apply that factor to the rest of the 
> harvest.

Actually the value George describes above is simply the weight of the
water, not the moisture content.  Using the weight of the water as a
factor to apply the rest of the harvest will not do much for you.  To get
any meaningful use, the moisture content has to be expressed as a
percent. In other words, you have to divide the weight of the water by
some other weight (either the dry weight or wet weight of the hops). 
Here is were it gets a little confusing, does one express the percent
moisture on a dry weight or wet weight basis?

Peter J. Calinski writes:

>I recently picked 1 oz. of fresh hops.  After drying they weighted 0.25
>oz For this one case, I can say that the dried version is 25% of the
>weight of the fresh version.  Of course, I am sure the % of moisture in
>fresh hops can vary widely so YMMV.

This would equate to a moisture content of 75 percent (by wet weight of
hops).  

0.75 oz = weight of water
1.00 oz. = wet wight of hops

0.75/1.00 = 0.75 or 75 percent

When talking about wet (undried) hops it is better to express the
moisture content as a percent by wet weight because the wet weight of
the hops is so much greater than the dry weight of the hops.  This is
obviously what Fred Scheer is talking about when he reported a
moisture content of about ~80% water for fresh hops.  And Ian Smith
reports:

>I have found the moisture content of my home grown hops to be
>between 70 to  80%. Actually I average about 76%. 

Otherwise, assuming the hops were completely dried, we would end up
with a moisture content of 300 percent by dry weight (0.75/0.25 * 100). 
Which is kind of hard to work with if you are looking for a factor to
multiply you hop weight by to get an estimate how much hops versus
water you have.

Christophe Frey writes:

>The second batch I picked I weighed in at 4.25 lbs (68 ozs.) when I got
home. Utilizing Pat's >recommended method of drying, I spread them out
over several window screens (scrounged at>a remodeling site) in my
garage. Three days later when I checked on them, the
>bright green little monsters were completely dried and weighed in at just
under
>12 ozs. 

Again this works out to a percent by wet weight of about 82 percent
(((68-12)/68)*100).  Or a whopping 467 percent by dry weight (assumes
complete drying).

However, Ian Smith writes:

>I have heard that commercially they leave about 8%. My question: is it
8% of the ORIGINAL >weight or 8% of the dried weight? I actually dried
my hops so that there was no appreciable 
>change in weight over a 2 hours period in my dehydrator. I then added
back 
>the 8% (of the original weight) and its a LOT of water - maybe way too
much 
>and the hops were very wet. What is wrong with removing all of the
moisture 
>anyway?

The 8 percent in this case is a reported as dry-weight basis.  For
example, you if you had a 108 gram sample of hops and *completely*
dried it, the dry hops would weight 100 grams and the evaporated water
would weight 8 grams: (108-100)/100 * 100 = 8 percent.  To calculate
the percent moisture of a sample of dried hops you need three things: A
large sample, an accurate scale, and a method for completely (or nearly
so) drying the sample.  A dehydrator will not do this.  You need to dry in
an oven for a long time (overnight) and at a high temperature to drive all
of the water off.

So which is the best way to report moisture content?  It depends on
which end of the hop economy you are on.  If you grow hops or buy
huge quantities of un-dried hops for drying and distribution, you are more
interested in the moisture content based on wet weight.  If you are
buying or selling hops after they have been dried, you are more
interested in the moisture content reported as a dry weight.  

Brew on,

Paul Niebergall


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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:21:38 -0400
From: Jonathan Edwards <jdedward at us.ibm.com>
Subject: re: Beer in Plastic Cups

From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: Beer in Plastic Cups

>I don't know your situation, but in my area there are bars/taverns >that have
outside areas such as a patio or horse shoe pits.  These >places typically
serve their beer is plastic (no glass outside).  Ask >for glass and they'll
give it to you but you can't take it outside. >FWIW.

unless Greenshield's has changed since i was last down there (about a month
ago) they let you take glass onto their patio.

so you are in apex? do you find raleigh, nc and the surrounding area to be
totally lacking in good brewpubs/breweries? greenshield's beer to me is average
to mediocre. Carolina Brewery in Holly Springs is okay. their keg beer is
pretty good but they don't have much variety. their bottled beer isn't worth
buying imho. i understand chapel hill has a good brewpub but haven't been there.

we do have some good pubs though. T.S. Elliot's has a good variety of tap
beers. everything from hand pulled Rogue porter to saranac bavarian black to
your typical guinness to your pilsner urquell. there is also another place
right near there called Poor Man's Tavern i think. they have a pretty good
selection of beer also. i think i had a Wild Irish Rogue oatmeal stout there
but i could be wrong since I was a bit hazy.

jonathan


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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 17:06:08 EDT
From: WayneM38 at aol.com
Subject: Spaten UR-MARZEN is my target..

To all:

For better or worse, I usually measure my homebrew against commercial
examples. During the last few weeks one of my favorite test sites (AKA Ray's
Liquor Store) offered Spaten Oktoberfest.

The Spaten version has the sweetness/malt balance that I want in my version.
For those who have not had a fresh bottle, certainly seek it out this time of
year.
I have the Fix book on Oktoberfest and there are a few variations of the
style.
Does any one have any direct info or at least best guess on just what
specialty malts that are used?  Just purchased a bag of German pils malt and
having difficult time finding the German crystal used in style guide.  Will
travel a bit today on a supply quest to a shop that offers dark German
crystal.

I have a bottom heated/ HERMS heated RIMS system and did read the Brewing
Techniques (Vol 6, No 1) article regarding RIMS/Decoction tests. Hope to do
some batch testing on my system since I can try infusion using HERMS, use the
bottom heated mash tun or a decoction using the same system.

The sweetness/roundness of the dry finish is what I am looking for.

Any help will be appreciate.  

Wayne
Big Fun Brewing
Milwaukee, WI


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Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 14:13:11 -0700
From: " Scott Perfect" <perfect at marzen.llnl.gov>
Subject: yeast

George comments about the new, large Wyeast packs:

     It is my opinion that these packs are a rip off.  The amount of yeast
     in them is, at best, 3 times the amount in the 50 mL Wyeast package.
     This is not even close to being pitchable into a 5 gallon batch.  John
     V's Palexperimenters experienced very long lag times (on the order of
     36 hours) by pitching these packs without making starters.

(me) 3.5, I think... but I've been stewing about this for a while.

     Wyeast gets a dollar extra (which is almost pure profit) and you still
     need to make a starter in the exact same manner as if you had the 50
     mL pack.  You decide which you will buy.

(me) Actually, my preferred shop decided for me.  It switched to the large
packs
     exclusively.   And it's two bucks more to us.
- ----------------------------------------------
Speaking of George...
A while back there was a discussion about priming yeast and autolysis
of bavarian wheat strains.  Last night, for no particular reason, I was
leafing through Warner's book on wheat beer and happened onto the section that
discusses bottle conditioning.  Interestingly, Warner points out that attention
is paid to the _quantity_ of yeast present during conditioning - too much is
said to produce a "yeasty-bitter" flavor.  Various brewers prefer different
combinations of lager vs. ale yeast and speise vs. kraeusen.  Reasons cited for
favoring lager yeast are: lower tendency to autolyse and greater flocculation
than the primary yeast.  The issue of autolysis has been questioned in this
forum; unfortunately Warner's comments do not have a reference, so I suppose
we must still allow the possibility that he has simply repeated a "momily."
Concern about flocculation in a beer that is deliberately agitated so as
to mix the yeast into the beer seems odd but Warner seems to indicate that
more flocculant strains provide a more attractive appearance in the glass.
Interesting section, as the decisions are also influenced by the beer tax laws.

Scott Perfect
Livermore, CA


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---