---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Jeff Renner's Address (Scott Murman)
  lye pain (Jack Schmidling)
  re: Vanilla Beans in Beer (Scott Murman)
  Other grains, or a new beer to take to the movies? (GuyG4)
  RE: Clinitest ("Timothy Green")
  RE: packing bottles for competition (Robert Paolino)
  CPBF help... (Some Guy)
  Enzymes - temps more ("Steve Alexander")
  Charles Rich's Hop Ranch Trip ("Kris Jacobs")
  Re: More on Uerige and malts (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Jeff Renner's Address (Jeff Renner)
  Alt post fermentation cold conditioning ("Matthew J. Harper")
  Alt fermentation/lagering, saurmalz ("Jim Busch")
  Clarification ("A. J. deLange")
  Addendum:  3rd Annual Music City Brew-Off (Stephen Johnson)
  Guiness "Tang" ("silent bob")
  Second Use of First Wort Hops (EFOUCH)
  Alt Hopping and Lagering ("Roger Deschner  ")
  Re: Fusels vs amino acid levels (Al Korzonas)
  RE: Easy Keg? (LaBorde, Ronald)
  High Altitude Brewing Record ("Brian Rezac")
  Gott mash tun ("McConnell, Guy")
  Shipping cartons/cleaning carboys/cooler mashtuns ("Charles T. Major")
  Clinitest ("David R. Burley")
  Clinitest... again... ugh! (Al Korzonas)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:15:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: Jeff Renner's Address


>  Where does Jeff Renner live? 

The center of the HBD universe.  I'm not sure how this relates to the
collective navel though.

SM



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Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:24:07 -0700
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: lye pain

bers at epix.net

"lye is a poison.....

One would be hard pressed to name a disinfectant that is not poisonous.

"the doc in the er unit said that the lye in the whitewash was a poison 
that was absorbed through the eye the with great speed.....

I think you need to find a new doctor. Lye will disolve a cornea and 
turn it into soap with great speed but as far being absorbed, that is
nonsense.  Furthermore...... 

Several years ago we decided it would be fun to do a traditional
whitewash on our small barn, aka Brewhaus and spent a lot of time 
researching the subject and nowhere did we find any reference to lye as 
an ingredient.  It is simply lime that is baked in a kiln (forget the
process name) and water.

js

- -- 

Visit our WEB pages:     http://user.mc.net/arf

ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday



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Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:32:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: re: Vanilla Beans in Beer


It's late, I'm tired, but I've got homebrew, so I'll try to coherently
relate my experience with vanilla.  I've had a stout recipe for some
time that uses vanilla.  Cheap vanilla extract in the 2nd'ary, keg, or
bottling bucket is probably the best way to go IMO.  1 small bottle (4
fl. oz.?)  per 5 gal. batch is about the right dosage to start with.
Extract is basically just vanilla beans soaked in alcohol, so they've
already done the work for you, and you don't have to worry about
sanitation.  You can get your own beans, and process them many
different ways to Sunday, but there are a couple of downsides which
make the extract a better alternative.  First, vanilla beans are
really damn expensive.  Second, they contain a lot of oil, which will
hurt head retention, &c if you just plop them into your 2nd'ary.  You
can add them to the boil, but vanilla is very delicate, and by the
time you're done fermenting most of the flavor and aroma will be gone.
The amount of beans you'd need to get flavor and aroma to survive the
ferment makes it too expensive (see point 1).

Of course, you're free to ignore this advice.  I know I would.

SM (somewhere navel of the HBD Buddha contemplating the center)



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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 01:53:50 EDT
From: GuyG4 at aol.com
Subject: Other grains, or a new beer to take to the movies?

The last issue of "Brew your own'" contains a recipe, Birdseed Blonde Ale, I
think, with a unique grain bill to say the least...millet, quinoa, ???  One
grain it calls for is 1/2 lb. hot-air popped popcorn!  

Ok, I've done the rice, corn, rye, oats, malted my own grain, dropped hot
rocks into wort (I used Cretaceous/Tertiary Quartz Monzonite by the way)
roasted, toasted, honeyed and spiced.  I've made a fruit beer, I've drunk a
pumpkin beer and lied about liking it.  I've made CAPs and weizens and a whole
bunch of rye. I have not used Clinitest, and won't...I just let the beer
ferment for more time.  This time, somebody has got to tell me
first.....popcorn?  Jeff, anybody, is this legitimate, and can anyone please
answer two questions: Is popped popcorn gelatinized, and ready to add its
wonderful flavor to my beer?  What wonderful flavors might those be?

If Oroville would've known about this, maybe he would have removed that darn
bow tie.  Do you think Crackerjacks might eliminate the need for 80L crystal?

Guy Gregory
Lightning Creek Home Brewery
Spokane, WA


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 02:13:58 -0400
From: "Timothy Green" <TimGreen at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: Clinitest

Scott Murman writes:

While I'm as tired of hearing/reading about Clinitest as anyone, it is
exactly the kind of topic that the HBD exists to discuss (IMO obviously)

I think that the person that Scott was responding to was making a point not
about weather we should or should not discuss the relative merits of a
testing method, but that the discussion had become a more-or-less continuous
rant basically between 2 people about the relative merits of a testing
method.

If you have something NEW to say, please, by all means inform us, but if
your just going to continue the ranting, whats the point?

I personally have gotten so tired of it, that when I see the word clinitest,
I imediately page-down weather there is anything else of value in the post
or not.

Tim Green

Mead is great...
Beer is good...
(But beer is much faster)




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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 06:32:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robert Paolino <rpaolino at execpc.com>
Subject: RE: packing bottles for competition

Here's how I pack for competitions.  After bottles are prepared with
rubber-banded bottle labels and blacked out caps, each bottle gets wrapped
in a sheet of newspaper and put in a six-pack carrier.  The six-pack
carrier(s) gets put in a plastic grocery bag(s).

Don't use packing "peanuts"--it's a mess for the person who has to unpack
the box.  Instead, start putting your styrofoam meat and bakery trays from
the grocery store in the dishwasher with your dishes.  The ones with some
depth and about six-pack side size are the best.

Set the six pack in the box with a styro tray on the bottom such that the
six pack fits in it.  Surround the sides of the six pack with the styro
trays' _bottoms_ against the six pack and the open side facing the side of
the box.  Top it off with a tray over the bottle cap end (flat of the tray
to touch the flaps of the box).  Another tip is to put your paperwork,
unless otherwise directed, in a plastic bag taped to the inside of the top
styro tray, and use a marker on the other side of the tray to say that's
where the paperwork is.)

Use broken-to-fit styro trays to fill any excessive spaces.

This method is great because the materials are free, lightweight, protect
well, and are easily handled at the destination.

Now go have a beer,
Bob Paolino                                  rpaolino at earth.execpc.com
Madison
I can taste my beer.  Can you?  Bland Beer is the Worst Sort of Tyranny!
Don't drink bland industrial swill; it only encourages them to make more. 
  *** Wisconsin Brewers Guild Festival is 19 September in Mukwonago ***




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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:29:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: CPBF help...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take em to your lager...

Steve spake thusly regarding his CPBF adventures:

"..increased to 20 psi and got virtually no foam at all..."

And what was the temperature of the beer? The key to counter-pressure
bottle filling is very much like the key to a properly functioning draft
system, except that the CPBFS acts more like a closed system and the limit
to the high pressure side is the strength of the system components 
(including your hand strength when holding the rig down...) and your 
patience. 

Generally, you want to set the CPBF rig to the same pressure that 
maintains the desired level of carbonation in the beer at the temperature 
(of the bulk beer) you're bottling at. Just like with a draft system. The 
main difference is that a higher pressure doesn't seem to hurt you as it 
does in a draft system.

Generally, I'll carbonate a beer destined for CPBFing slightly higher than
I would if just serving draft, and then chill the beer as cold as I can
get it. I set the pressure on the CPBF to slightly more than that required
to carbonate to the desired volumes of CO2 at that temperature (because
only the keg is at that temp - unless you're bottling in the cold of
winter or in a freezer, the rest of the rig will likely be warmer as you
move toward the bottle) then have at it! I have also found that chilling
the bottle helps, but is not an absolute necessity. 

Here's the process I use with my Foxx filler:

1)  Carbonate the beer.
2)  Chill the beer (and bottles, if 
    you wish) to as low a temperature 
    as you can manage, yet still liquid :-)
3)  Hook up the CPBF rig and set the 
    pressure to that required to
    maintain my desired level of 
    CO2 plus two to five pounds.
4)  Get out the faithful Coleman
    48 qt cooler.
5)  Set bottle in cooler and put the 
    end of your vent hose in a 
    collection container.
6)  Insert filler into bottle so 
    that stopper just seals (don't
    jam it in there...) and check
    fill tube height. Set height to
    between 1/8 and 1/4 inch of bottle
    bottom.
7)  Open vent valve.
8)  Turn on CO2 valve. Let bottle purge.
    (A second or two.)
9)  Close vent valve, let bottle build
    pressure to that of the rig.
10) Close CO2 valve; open beer valve.
11) "Crack" vent so that beer "gently"
    fills bottle. A little foam is ok.
    You can open the vent a bit more
    and fill faster after the beer is 
    over the filler outlet and about 1/4 
    of the way up the bottle. This limits
    turbulence and helps reduce foaming.
12) Close vent when beer reaches outlet.
13) ***VERY IMPORTANT*** CLOSE BEER
    VALVE (reason becomes obvious :-)
14) Remove filler from bottle. (See?)
15) You can let it foam up to the top 
    of the neck if you like (some will 
    anyway, so you might as well like 
    it :-). This helps displace any air 
    that came in to displace the volume 
    of the stopper when you removed it. 
16) Cap your bottle.

I usually put my bottles in a cold water bath after bottling, then on a 
counter covered with towels. No magic here: there's usually quite a bit 
of beer in the cooler bottom, and this keeps the bottles clean. 
Otherwise, the carboard of the carrier would get all moldy...

I use the cooler as my "reservoir" to contain any industrial accidents
while filling, and I have attached a three or four foot section of beer
hose to the vent. This hose server two purposes: It kicks the back
pressure of the vent up a bit, allowing for a smoother, gentler fill by
further limiting "wide open throttle" on the vent, and it carries any
offal from the filling process into a vessel where it can be easily
discarded - either in you or the sink. 

My favorite time of the Michigan year in which to CPBF bottle is the cold
months of winter. I can bottle in the garage and never worry about the
temperature of the beer, bottles or rig. Just have to go in the house
every once in a while to thaw the hands out... 

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."





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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:45:13 -0400
From: "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Enzymes - temps more

Pete asks ...
>do you think the evolutionary pressure was for the development of enzymes to
>work at this temperature? These enzymes would be fairly well inactive at
>temperatures the barley would experience in the field (if not, could we mash
>at 25 degrees C?)

David Burley hit home when he stated that the temperature for mashing is a
balance between the fastest time possible and the amount of enzyme denaturation
that occurs.  For this reason the so called 'temperature optima' for the
various mash enzymes only have meaning with respect to a predefined mash rest
period.  In other words if beta-amylase has a temperature optima of 65C for a 1
hour mash, then it might also have a 60C optima for a 90 minute mash.  When you
choose a mash temp of say 65C - you are selecting a temp at which the enzymes
will significantly denature throughout the mash period.

For survival of the grain it is only necessary that the enzymes remain stable
at environmental conditions.   Consider also that a grain seed may need to
survive several hot summers with temps approaching 50C for many hours before
germination conditions arise.  Fortunately the enzymes in the seed are in
relatively dry and so more stable.

Can you mash at 25C.  Yes - it just takes a very long time and the normal grain
bacteria will ferment your 'beer' in the mashtun.

>Are these enzymes present in wild barley?

Wild Barley typically does contain an excess of enzymes.  Note however that not
all barleys or grains have similarly high enzyme levels as malting varieties.
Most wheat and barley do have a huge excess of amylolytic enzymes, tho' malting
varieties may have several times more than some other varieties.  In fact these
grains contain several hundred times the amount of amylotytic enzymes necessary
for normal growth.  Malting barley, and probably others  actually contains
several different versions of beta-amylase and alpha-amylase and under the
'right' conditions the barley seed can even produce inhibitors for some of
these 'isozymes'.  Why ?  I suspect that the inhibitor was developed in order
to prevent a fungal or bacterial parasite from digesting the goods.  The seed
then needed another variant enzyme (isozyme) to allow growth to continue.
Many, probably most other seeds cannot be expected to yield as much enzyme
content as barley and wheat.  Rye will marginally malt.  I'm not sure but
suspect that oats will not.

>I understood [...] only specially
>adapted thermophilic organisms had enzymes that could cope.

This is true for bacteria but you must realize that human and bacterial and
grain alpha-amylase are three very  different proteins - they only share a
common method of activity - not a common chemistry or physical properties.  In
fact even similar species, such as wheat and barley amylase are quite distinct
with slightly different temp and pH optima. Typically plant amylases are very
much larger (like 120K Daltons vs 30-50K Daltons) than bacteria and animal
amylases.  Also they are often more stable and less active.

Just as a side note - a few years ago I noticed a barley shoot in my compost
heap.  At the time the only unmalted grain I used was some black patent!  So
after being malted, kilned and mashed - treated most barb'rously - this defiant
little bugger still sprouted.  It's a real testament to the goodness of the
design this  could even possibly happen.

Steve A







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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:07:20 -0400
From: "Kris Jacobs" <jtsnake at net-link.net>
Subject: Charles Rich's Hop Ranch Trip

You probably remember the excellent trip report posted last week by 
Charles Rich about his visit to the Morrier Hop Ranch in Yakima, 
Washington.  His friend Jon Betterley took many pictures, and I 
have hosted them along with Charles' nicely put together HTML page.
You can view the pics and the original post to the HBD at

http://www.net-link.net/~jtsnake/beer/morrier-hop-farm.html


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:16:31 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: More on Uerige and malts

"Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com> wrote:

>As for the dunkelwiezen thread and dark wheat malts, Ive been using
>caraWheat malts for some time in Weizenbocks and there are several
>grades of darkness available.  From the discussion here I gather it
>is more of a wheat malt made like Munich malts as opposed to a
>caraWheat?

As the one who brought up the subject of dark wheat malt, I 'll respond to
say that I don't know if it is kilned damp like Munich or just kilned
"higher" than a pale wheat malt.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:52:05 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Jeff Renner's Address

Thomas S Barnett <barnets at mail.auburn.edu> wrote:

>This question needs to be asked for those of us who have only
>recently begun reading HBD:  Where does Jeff Renner live?

I suspect that others may take the opportunity for humorous responses, as I
considered doing.  I'll leave that for them.  Here's the real skinny.  I
suppose what you really want to know is why do people care where I live, or
more precisely, where they live in relation to me (2222 miles west, 3 hours
south, 7000 km east, 12,000 miles SW, etc).  I mean, all you have to do to
know where I live is to look at the sig. line on my frequent posts (see the
above post on dark wheat malts).

So pull up a chair and get me a beer, sonny, and I'll tell you how it all
began.  For some years, I have been posting a request about every six
months that folks append their location to their posts.  This sometimes
helps us answer their question (like about local water, brewing supplies,
what's this weird taste in my beer, etc.), tips us off to other brewers in
the area, and, perhaps nicest, helps foster a sense of community.
Otherwise, it's just electrons and zeros and ones.

A week or so after one such request, maybe two years ago, my good friend
and fellow AABG member Dan McConnell answered a question about yeast (he's
the Yeast Culture Kit Co.) and signed it with "about 4 miles south-east of
Jeff Renner."  Then Spencer Thomas, also good friend and AABG member,
signed a post "about 6 miles SE of Jeff Renner and 2 miles SE of Dan."
Well, HBDers being what they are, pretty soon everybody got on the band
wagon.  We heard from Tasmania, Austria, and points in between.  I began be
referred to as "the center of the brewing universe."  It's pretty well died
down by now.

So maybe it's time for another friendly reminder from your social chairman
 - Let us know where you are.  Coordinates from the center of the brewing
universe are optional.

Jeff
 -=-=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner c/o nerenner at umich.edu
Typing this about 40 feet south of my brewery/garage midway between Ann
Arbor and Dexter, Michigan




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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:08:15 -0400
From: "Matthew J. Harper" <matth at progress.com>
Subject: Alt post fermentation cold conditioning

I've finally caught up on teh Alt thread, what great info!

Simple question for the collective:

Suppose one *doesn't* do the cold 4-8 week (or 41 day...)
conditioning after fermentation.  Just how 'off' style
will the resulting beer be?  Complete purists aside, would
it be so far a field as to make it not worthwhile?

If someone has actually done this I'd sure like to hear from you!

Thanks much!

 -Matth

Matthew J. Harper      | Principle Software Engineer | {disclaimer.i}
Progress Software Corp.|         Photographer        |    DoD #1149
matth at progress.com     |          Zymurgist          |  Ahhhhh, Bock!
     Sometimes you're the windshield - Sometimes you're the bug     



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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:13:44 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: Alt fermentation/lagering, saurmalz

Regarding the fermentation/lagering steps for Alts I submit the 
following suggestions:

Ferment your 11.5-11.8P Alt at 56-61F for 3 days (it should be near 
terminal at this point if you did the proper cell counts and O2).  
Spund the tank when gravity is within 1P-0.5P of terminal (do a fast 
forced ferment to determine your FG).

Reduce your temps by 2-4F per day, dropping your yeast from the uni 
every few days.  If you dont have a uni, wait till you hit 40F and 
rack to secondary.  (or leave it in the primary but you may have more 
of a load on the filter depending on strain)

Rest at 40F-44F for a few days to a week and then drop to 31-35F to 
drop out proteins and final yeasts.  Maintain head pressure at 10-14 
psi to ensure at least 2 vols of CO2.   Purge final yeast/proteins 
off the uni too.  After 2 weeks at 31-35F you can package by 
filtering through a 3 or 5 micron cart, or leave it unfiltered if the 
yeast is a good flocculator.  Total fermentation time is 3 days, 
total conditioning time is 2-3 weeks.  Total consumption time is 
hours to minutes per cask!

Regarding Dans use of Saurmalz in his Guinness clone, I have to 
wonder what the pH of the mash was with 3% saurmalz and I gather 10% 
Roasted Barley....  Also, acidulation of the mash is very different 
indeed from the methods Guinness uses of blending sour beer with 
regular stout.  The concept is very interesting but I wonder about 
the implications of water chemistry and overall pH of the resultant 
wort.  I would also be sure to measure the pH of the final beer from 
the spigot.  Dan, let us know how this technique works for you as it 
would certainly be a very easy way if it works in practice.

Prost!

Jim Busch




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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:38:25 -0500
From: "A. J. deLange" <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Clarification

Andy Anderson sent me private e-mail in which he asked about yesterdays
lye post

>Did you
> forget to put the word "not" before the words "be used with
> aluminum ware."?  Or, are you trying to say that lye should
> always be used with aluminum?  I don't think so, but then again,
> I'm more of a grammarian than a chemist :-)

He mentioned that we must be very careful with words these days. My
reply to him:

That would depend on the meaning of the word not. If not means not then
the statment as given is not correct but if not does not mean not then
the
stament is not incorrect and is a completely true statment in terms of
the
definition of not as I may, or may not,  choose to define it. I did not,
not ever,
forget to use that word, not. The correct reading is "shouldn't".





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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:27:10 -0500
From: Stephen Johnson <Stephen.Johnson at vanderbilt.edu>
Subject: Addendum:  3rd Annual Music City Brew-Off

Just a quick addendum to the post that went out yesterday regarding the 3rd
Annual Music City Brew-Off in Nashville, Oct. 24th.  Due to the fact that 
some of our club members and judges will be attending the Real Ale Festival 
in Chicago Oct. 16-17, we have decided to extend our entry deadline to Monday,
Oct. 19th instead of October 12th as originally posted or as it appears in
some homebrewing publications.  Sorry for any inconvenience this may have 
caused any, and thanks for the bandwidth.  And, despite what some may have
heard, Al Korzonas will NOT be giving a lecture about Clinitest
applications in 
homebrewing while he is with us!

Steve Johnson, President
Music City Brewers
Nashville, TN
a fair piece from Jeff Renner



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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 07:36:27 PDT
From: "silent bob" <holdenmcneil at hotmail.com>
Subject: Guiness "Tang"

Hell folks, I'm new to HBD, but hope to become a regular contributer. My 
guiness clone has (with all due humility) won some high praise for is 
proximity to the real thing.  The recipe is simple: 80% marris otter, 
10% roast, 10% flaked barley.  The trick is to take about a quart of the 
first runnings, boil them briefly seperately to break out excessive 
protien, and after cooling, put them in a jar with a small handful of 
raw malt.  By the end of your primary, your little lactic culture will 
be quite putrid, but never fear, strain it, boil it, and add it to the 
secondary.  I got the idea when I read that Guiness uses soured double 
strength wort for this purpose.  If you use this idea be sure to 
secondary long enough for the residual sugar in the soured part to be 
fermented or you may get bottle bombs.  No worries if you keg except 
clarity, but who can see through it any way.

Enjoy,

Adam C. Cesnales

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: 22 Sep 1998 12:40:49 -0400
From: EFOUCH at steelcase.com
Subject: Second Use of First Wort Hops


HBD-
Yesterday I played hooky from work and did some parti-gyle brewing.  And- in
answer to Corky Courtright's question about cooler capacities, I used to fit a
max of 13# of grain (at 1 qt/pound water) in my 5 gallon SS pot.  Last night I
fit 25# of grain and 7 gallons of water in my 10 gallon Gott.  It was quite
full!

Anyway, I made a barleywine from the first five gallons of runnings (1.100),
then in the extra space provided by the compaction of the grain bed, I added
1# of chocolate malt and 1# of cara-pils dextrine malt.  I collected 7 gallons
of spargent which boiled down to 5 gallons at 1.075.

I started brewing at 8 am, finished cleaning up at 4:30 pm!  Lot's more fun
than going to work!

A question for the forum:  I FWH with 2oz(by vol)of homegrown fresh picked NB
and 2oz (by vol) homegrown fresh picked Cascades.  At the beginning of the
boil, I added another 2oz of each homegrown hops.

After the boil, I strained out the hops from the barleywine, and added them to
the second runnings stout.  What I am curious about, is will there be any FWH
effects in the second brew?  I threw all the "spent" hops in at the beginning
of boil, but half of them had been exposed to the low temps of the first
runnings.  Will I get more extraction of the "fixed" hop oils and resins from
the first FWH in the second use of the hops?

Any thoughts?

With respect to the "C" word, I like what ALK has done with the "C" word web
page.  Perhaps DB could set up a reference web page to purvey his point of
view?  Maybe ALK would so gracious as to allow DB some space on the same page
for his points, so people could peruse at their leisure, and save the rest of
us from wearing out our Page Down keys.

My opinion?  Since you asked, I don't see the need for the added expense of
another test.  If I brew a beer to 1.070 OG, and it sits at 1.030 two weeks
later, unless I had 2# crystal in the bill or some other limiting factor, I
know it's stuck.

Lets see....Clinitest at $30, or 50# of floor malted Beeston Maris
Otter.....Clinitest at $30 or a case of Sierra Nevada Bigfoot.....Clinitest at
$30 or tickets to Johnny Lang....

Eric Fouch
Slick Willy's White House of Ill Repute
Kentwood MI


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:46:54 CDT
From: "Roger Deschner " <U52983 at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject: Alt Hopping and Lagering

At Zum Uerige they use Spalt and Perle, in a quantity calculated to
achieve 50 IBU, depending on the AA of that particular harvest. Hops are
boiled for 60 and 80 minutes, and you *DO* get some flavor and aroma out
of them, partly because, to get 50 IBU, you're boiling a huge quantity of
green stuff for quite a while.

The key for lagering as practised in Dusseldorf, is to make the
temperature drop from primary to secondary as gradual as possible - 1C or
2F per day. This is to keep the yeast working. At ZU, they admitted they
achieve this with a "wimpy cooling system" - their words. This is much
more easily achieved with commercial size batches, which change
temperature much more slowly, than with our 5 gallon batches, which can
be heated or cooled much more quickly. (unfortunately, in this case)

But, this is all less important to Altbier production than the malt bill
and the mashing procedure. Though I disagree with Horst Dornbusch about
hopping levels in Altbier, I agree with him completely here. Neither of
us favor sweet altbier. Some of the yeasts used (Wyeast 1007, for
instance) are highly attenuative, and you're making it very hoppy. So, it
is very easy to make hop tea here, unless you have good residual
unfermentables.

I have followed the notes in this thread about attenuation levels with a
good deal of interest; there seem to be two camps here: 1) use a low-
attenuating yeast (e.g. Wyeast 1338) to leave residual maltiness. 2) Use
mashing procedures to prevent a high-attenuating yeast (e.g. Wyeast 1007)
from achieving complete fermentation. The problem with method 1 is that
it leaves too much sweetness; I much prefer method 2.

Decoction (still practised by the Schumacher brewery in Dusseldorf,
alone) is perfect here. I know all the arguments why it is unnecessary,
and I even agree with most of them. But, the best Altbier -I- ever made
was with a decoction mash. Coincidence? OTOH, my favorite two Dusseldorf
Alts, Zum Uerige and Im Fuschen, are both made with multi-step infusion
mashes, instead of decoction. I don't decoct often, because it's such a
ferocious additional pain to clean up after; it lengthens the brew day by
several hours.

Anyway, one of the aromas you get in a great altbier, is not just hop
aroma, but also malt aroma. It is this combination of high residuals from
the malt, high hopping, and a highly attenuative yeast, along with the
cold conditioning, that makes Altbier special enough to devote this much
bandwidth to - flavorful but not sweet, aromatic, beautifully-colored,
and clean, ALL AT ONCE.

Roger Deschner      University of Illinois at Chicago     rogerd at uic.edu
Aliases:             USUICZ3P at IBMMAIL            u52983 at uicvm.uic.edu
===================== Political comment of the day: ====================
================== "He that is without sin among you, ==================
================ let him cast the first stone" John 8:7 ================


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:13:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Re: Fusels vs amino acid levels

Steve writes:
>Al Korzonas writes ...
>
>>Steve writes:
>>>AlK points out correctly that fusel alcohol production by yeast drops at both
>>>very low and very high amino acid levels.
>>Nay, nay... I said it *INCREASES* at both very low and very high amino
>>acid levels!  Must have been a typo.
>
>In that case I have to respectfully disagree.
>
>T.Ayrapaa (put an umlaut over all the vowels) published some graphs and a
>tentative explanation in Proc. EBC Conv., Brussels, 1963.  Reproduced in part
>in 'The Yeasts', vol 3, Academic Press.  Isobutanol for example starts at about
>20ppm when the FAN level is extremely low (~20ppm).  It increases to ~70ppm at
>a FAN level of ~250ppm, then declines to ~20ppm at FAN levels of 500ppm and
>above.  Similarly for Phenyl-ethanol and amyl alcohols, tho the peak levels of
>the alcohol varied from FAN of ~100ppm to 250ppm.  These results were extended
>to studies of the impact of the individual amino acids levels and fusels by
>Ayrapaa in JIB 71, 1965, pp341 - which I have not read myself - tho' I've read
>of the results.

I didn't make this up and certainly don't have the equipment to verify it
myself.  Please see these two references:

McFarlane, W.D. and M.B. Millingen, "The Aromatic Amino Acids in Alcoholic
Fermentations," American Society of Brewing Chemists Proceedings, 1964,
pp.41-48.

and

Engan, S., Chapter 3 in Polock, J.R.A. ed., Brewing Science, Vol. 2 (Academic
Press, London, 1981), 93-157.


Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:16:57 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Easy Keg?

From: Bowden Wise <wiseb at acm.org>

>I was wondering what the easiest way to keg is?  I don't want
>to get into a elaborate keg set up.  I am planning on going to
>an football game in few weeks and wanted to bring some homebrew.
>Brining a keg might be easier than a case of bottles.

Good question - around this area (New Orleans), you can be nearly arrested,
thrown out on your ear, and else..for even trying to bring in your own food
or drink.  The greedy event producers, who already are fat and happy for
selling you an entrance ticket, do not allow such freedom.

Any lawyers around here?  What really can you do?  If you have a ticket, or
such, can you be forced to not enter with food or drink?

I had the occasion to enter the bookstore at University Of New Orleans, and
upon approaching the entrance, some troll demanded that I leave my briefcase
there in order to be allowed to enter.  A state university of all things,
paid for with my tax money moreover.  I guess they get away with pushing
kids and youngsters around like that.  Imagine Sears, or Wall Mart demanding
that customers leave their handbags at the entrance just in case they may
want to steal something!  Oh well, now you know how the state visualizes
it's citizens.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:35:01 -0600
From: "Brian Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
Subject: High Altitude Brewing Record

Fellow Homebrewers,

Last year on August 30, 1997, eight members of The Tribe, a homebrew
club in Longmont, Colorado, set the Western Hemisphere High Altitude
Brewing Record during what they called Operation: HYPOXIA.  They
climbed to the peak of Mt. Elbert (14,433 feet) and brewed 2 1/2
gallons of a barley wine.  I am proud to say that I was one of the
eight Operation: HYPOXIA Commandos.

Today, September 22, 1998, however, that record is most likely to be
broken.

Fellow HBDer, Scott Kaczorowski of Long Beach, California is leading a
group of homebrewers up to the peak of Mt. Whitney, with a highest
point of 14,494 feet (61 feet higher than Mt. Elbert).  They started
their 3-day trek on Monday, September 21st and are planning to be
doing the actual brewing today.  The team will do their descent on
Wednesday, September 23rd.

In the spirit of sportsmanship, (although it may be premature) I would
like to congratulate Scott and the Mt. Whitney team on their success.
I encourage all of you to send your congratulatory messages to Scott
at kacz at deltanet.com

It would be excellent for him to come down off Mt. Whitney and find
his email full of messages from homebrewers everywhere.

Slainte!

Brian Rezac
Membership Development Director
American Homebrewers Association
736 Pearl Street, Boulder, CO  80302
303 447-0816, ext. 121
brian at aob.org        http://beertown.org



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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:18:44 -0600
From: "McConnell, Guy" <GuyM at Exabyte.COM>
Subject: Gott mash tun

On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:22:02 -0700, Corky Courtright sez...

> I'm about to take the plunge and go to all grain. I plan on using a
Gott
> type cooler as a mash tun.  I'm trying to decide if I should buy a 5
gallon
> or 10 gallon cooler to make my mash tun out of.  

Corky, do yourself a favor and buy the 10 gallon now.  You will
inevitably need
it.  You can always mash smaller batches in the large cooler while the
converse
is not necessarily true.

> What type of false bottom or screen do you recommend?

I am sure you will see many different recommendations on this but I have
always
had exceptional service from Jack's Easymasher in my tuns and kettles.

Guy McConnell  /// guym at exabyte.com
"And the beer I had for breakfast wasn't bad, so I had one for
dessert..."



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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:23:19 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Charles T. Major" <Charles.T.Major at samford.edu>
Subject: Shipping cartons/cleaning carboys/cooler mashtuns


Badger asks about how to ship beer without buying expensive 
beer cartons, and notesthat he has plenty of bubble wrap.

Bubble wrap is certainly key to success, and your best bet 
for padding.  Sturdy cartons with dividers are available 
for free from liquor stores (at least the ones everywhere 
I've ever lived).  Cases of 6 fifths of liquor tend to be 
just the right size for beer bottles wrapped in bubble 
wrap.  Also note that boxes used for more expensive liquor 
tend to be sturdier.

Last weekend I stumbled across a great carboy cleaner: 
automatic dishwashing detergent.  I noticed that the 
package recommended a pre-soak of 1 Tbs/Quart (1.25 cups/5 
gal, 1.5/ 6 gal)of hot water.  The grungy kraeusen ring 
inside my primary dissolved in 30 mins without agitation or 
brushing.

Corky Courtright asks for cooler mashtun recommendations.  
I have a 5 gal cooler, which will mash up to 12 lbs of 
grain, which is enough for 5 gallon batches of beers up to 
about 1.070.

I use Jack Schmidling's EasyMasher, which is forgiving of 
short vorlaufs and relatively rapid sparges, and highly 
recommend it.

Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Alabama
tidmarsh at mindspring.com




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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:25:40 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Clinitest

Brewsters:
- ------------------------------
If this has already been submitted, please excuse me. I have a new
mail program and I discovered several messages, including this
one, which do not appear to have been mailed and somehow I
cannot find HBD# 2829,which may have had this in it.
Can you say "Clumsy and Frustrated"?
- ------------------------------
Marshall George, and others have called for silence on the use of
Clinitest, based on the "refutation" of Clinitest results and its
usefulness in Homebrewing.  Of course, if you will carefully read
all the so-called refutation ( including yours) you will note no facts
are ever presented.

Fact is this method is very useful under situations for which
classical techniques are useless. Try it - give me some real
facts instead of name-calling and I will listen.  


If you do not wish to read more on Clinitest - page down.
It's your choice.
- ---------------------------------------------
Bob Mc Cowan says about determining the end of a fermentation:

>Doesn't the yeast make a difference as well?  If I start two different
>batches with the same wort, and use a strongly attenuating yeast in one
>batch and a weakly attenuating yeast in the other, won't I end up with
>different amount of residual sugar in the finished beers?  If that is 
the
>case, I should get different Clinitest analysis for the two beers, even
>though both are finished.

Good question and to the point.  Yeasts because of their
different flocculation properties do not always finish all the
sugar in a beer if they are not properly roused and held at the
proper temperature. Clinitest will tell you if the yeast you are
using needs rousing or a higher fermentation temperature.

DeClerk puts forth the opinion that all yeasts would finish
all the sugar in the beer if treated properly and prevented from
flocculating early.

Similarly, in Malting and Brewing Science p7, 2nd ed.

" ... Clearly, the traditional separation of top yeasts is assisted if
the cells float very readily to the top assisted by the rising
bubbles of carbon dioxide. If however, this separation occurs
too early in the fermentation process, the rate of conversion of
carbohydrates to ethanol ( termed attenuation) is impaired.
Similarly, attenuation is hindered by bottom yeasts settling too
early in the fermentation."

You may now reasonably ask why companies like Wyeast
publish typical attenuation figures.  Frankly in light of the above
data and position of these experts, I cannot give a reasonable
answer, except to say that they measure the attentuation by
hydrometer on a standard wort in a standard vessel and at a
standard temperature and get these results. Perhaps their results
are what one could perhaps expect in an unstirred vessel in
which the yeast were not roused. 


Point is with conventional use of the hydrometer you would never
know this ( and maybe that is why this concept of different
attenutations by different yeasts developed). Clinitest
determines the approach to the end of the fermentation based
on what really counts - the remaining fermentable sugar content by
determining the reducible sugar.

A properly fermented beer does not have any residual
fermentable sugar and all beers should have the same reading
at the end. The exception being  when reducible sugar content
is taken as the analysis method ( e.g. Clinitest).  I have found
that top fermenting yeast normally have a final reading of <1/4%
glucose (not that there is any glucose there. Glucose is what the
test is calibrated for) and when I lager with a true lager yeast I
get 0% glucose.

How do I explain this? I don't have any proof, but top fermenting
yeast are unable to utilize mannose ( according to a private
communication with AlK) and lager yeast are able to utilize it.
It could be that mannose ( a reducible sugar) content explains
this "reducible dextrin" that has caused so much concern about
what the endpoint reading for Clinitest should be for a properly
finished beer.  If mannose were to exist at less than 0.1% in the
wort, then all beers ( independent of their OG) would have a
reading of less than 0.25% glucose by Clinitest when properly
finished. This is consistent with my experience.
- -------------------------------------
Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:34:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Clinitest... again... ugh!

Dave writes:
>This experiment will go a ways towards proving if high
>alcohol beers have higher than <1/4% Clinitest finishes,
>as you contend, or not. I normally operate at OG  = 1.065 - 1.070
>(would you call this a strong ale?) - but have gone to higher
>OGs on numerous occasions and made the same observation
>that a properly finished beer ( i.e. rousing, dropping, correct
>yeast for the higher gravities, etc.)  finishes at <1/4% glucose
>Lagered beers, with true lager yeast, finish at 0% glucose,
>in many cases, despite the fact that in some cases they were
>mashed at 158F and were highly dextrinous beers.

Firstly, if you are going to continue to argue in favour of your
beloved Clinitest, please use the proper terminology... while
the Clinitest may say it reads "glucose," what it really reads
are any carbohydrates with reducing ends (which includes glucose,
but also many other carbohydrates, all the way up to dextrins).

This subject (besides being exceedingly boring since we haven't
made much progress in several years) is probably pretty confusing
to many readers and it is important to clarify that "<1/4% glucose"
or "0% glucose" actually is a measure of these carbohydrates, not
actual glucose per se.

Secondly, if you have a beer that was mashed at 158F and finished
(even with lager yeasts (which only eat one or two more sugars than
ale yeasts, by the way)) with a reading of 0% with Clinitest, I
am quite certain that either your thermometer is mis-calibrated or
your beer was infected with either bacteria or a superattenuative yeast
such as Saccharomyces diastaticus (which can even eat starch, not just
dextrins, by the way!).

Finally, I would be remiss in my self-appointed duties as Protector-
of-Those-Who-Are-Not-Familiar-With-Steve-Alexander's-Clinitest-Utility-Post,
if I did not suggest that a counterpoint to Dave's Clinitest claims
can be found at http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/arcticles/clinitest.html.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/

P.S. I do plan to purchase Clinitest, run tests on a whole spectrum of
my beers and report back, but it won't be for months, so don't hold your
collective breath.


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---