---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Burtonisation/astringency (Al Korzonas)
  Clinitest... (Al Korzonas)
  Re: Easy Keg? (John Wilkinson)
  Clinitet. Clinitest! Clinitestclinitestclinitest! (Some Guy)
  Glucose monitor ("David R. Burley")
  1998 AHA National Awards ("John A. Slusher")
  McEwan's Scotch Ale (Jbstrunk)
  Extract Syrup question (The Greenman)
  Oat Malt ("Mort O'Sullivan")
  KROC World Brewers Forum (BrewsTraveler)
  popcorn (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  lye ("Dave Olson")
  mashing popcorn ("Mort O'Sullivan")
  Profanity (EFOUCH)
  Re: Enzymes - temps more (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Other grains, or a new beer to take to the movies? (Jeff Renner)
  Large Volume Commercial Beers - What's in 'em? (Matt Comstock)
  re: Alt fermentation/Gump no more? (David Kerr)
  Clone Brews ("Chuck Mryglot")
  More on Alts ("Jim Busch")
  Wiezen yeast ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Re: yeasties ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Finally! ("David R. Burley")
  adjuncts and astringency (Al Korzonas)
  Re: High Altitude Brewing Record ("Roger Deschner  ")
  Alt conditioning (Al Korzonas)
  Recommendations in St. Cloud? (Mike Beatty)
  Hop museums (Bob Devine)
  Shipping beer (Al Korzonas)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:27:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Burtonisation/astringency

Dave writes:
>The Burton concentrations are from Noonan's New Brewin Lager Beer.  The
>one I'd be worried about is the SO4.  According to Noonan again, "It gives
>beer a dry, fuller flavor, although the taste can be objectionably sharp. 
>With Sodium and Magnesium it is catharatic.  Above 500 ppm, it is strongly
>bitter, and levels are best kept at less than 150 ppm unless the beer is
>very highly hopped.  With intensely bitter beers, sulfate at 150 to 350
>ppm gives a cleaner, more piquant bitterness."

I have to disagree with Noonan here.  Sulphate is not bitter and you can
prove it to yourself.  No amount of calcium sulphate (gypsum) or magnesium
sulphate (Epsom Salts) added to water will cause the water to taste bitter.
Try it!  I have.  What Noonan is omiting, and the point that is *most*
important about sulphate, is that it increases the *perception* of bitterness
from hops.  In other words, 40 IBUs and 10ppm of sulphate will be less bitter
than 30 IBUs and 350ppm of sulphate.
 
>I recently brewed a pale ale where I tried to "Burtonize" the water.  I
>have fairly soft water, but not as soft as yours.  After working out the
>numbers, I added 15g CaSO4 to 6.5 gal mash water and 28g CaSO4 to 12 gal
>sparge water.  The beer was crap.  A very hash bitterness/astingency was
>noted.  I'm going to dump it as soon as my next batch is ready.  I'd back
>way off on the sulfate and not necessarily shoot for the local brewing
>water of your favorite brew city.  

I suggest you blame something other than your gypsum additions.  I've added
far more CaSO4 to water and brewed perfectly excellent Bitters.  Also, if
your beer was indeed astringent (most people use "astringent" interchangably
with "bitter"... they are not the same... chew the peels from a dozen grapes
- -- the sensation on the sides and underside of your tongue is astringency
from the tannins in the grape skins), your problem could have been mash or
boil pH or excessive sparging or too high a sparge temperature, but it could
*not* have been caused by excessive sulphate.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:40:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Clinitest...

Dave writes:
>You indignantly act like you know something in
>number 3 which you cannot. You have NEVER tried Clinitest and everything
>you say about it comes from your imagination.  If you have the proof for
>your comments in Number 3 let's see it.

My previous polite response was to another post from Dave, prior to this
inflamatory one.  I need not stab myself in the eye with a letter opener
to know that it will be painful, nor do I need experimental proof to have
the right to discourage anyone on HBD from attempting this activity.

Empirical proof of the utility of Clinitest is pending, however you may
read the academic proof for yourself here:

   http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/articles/clinitest.html.

I would like to point out that I have been extremely polite in this whole
discussion and have refrained from personal attacks.  As bored as I am
with this discussion, I will *try* to continue to be civil.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 98 16:35:15 CDT
From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: Re: Easy Keg?

Bowden Wise wrote:


>I was wondering what the easiest way to keg is?  I don't want
>to get into a elaborate keg set up.  I am planning on going to
>an football game in few weeks and wanted to bring some homebrew.
>Brining a keg might be easier than a case of bottles.
>
>So what's the simplest way to get into kegging?


The basic kegging outfit is usually a five gallon Cornelius keg, a five pound
CO2 bottle, a gas line from the CO2 bottle to a quick disconnect that attaches
to the gas in fitting on the keg, and a beer line with a quick disconnect to
attach to the liquid out fitting on the keg and a picnic, or cobra, tap on the
other end of the line.  For transportability you might want to buy a 2.5 or
3 gallon Cornelius type keg.  You will need some way to keep the keg cold.
There are insulated wraps advertised in Brewing Techniques and, I think,
Zymurgy, or you could just carry the lot in an ice chest of appropriate size.
This is all fairly bulky.  One approach I have not tried but have seen
advertised is a fitting for the gas in connector of the keg that holds a CO2
cartridge.  I don't know how many pints this would dispense but would free you
from the weight and bulk of the CO2 tank.  There are also 2.5 pound CO2 tanks
commonly used for home kegging systems.

What I usually do is fill several bottles with a crude CP filler I put together
and just carry the bottles in a cooler.  Once when going to a NASCAR race
where glass containers were not allowed I filled pint plastic water bottles
with beer.  That worked well and was light and compact.

The crude CP filler I made consists of a #2 drilled stopper (#3 if using the
plastic water bottles) with a length of racking cane through the hole.  One end
of the racking cane fits into the bottle with the stopper sealing and the other
end of the racking cane fits into the spigot of the picnic tap.  Chill the
bottles first and start filling.  The flow will stop when the pressure in the
bottle reaches the delivery pressure.  The stopper can be released slowly to
let beer flow in.  When full, stop the beer flow and cap.  I use swing top
Grolsch bottles or screw on plastic bottles.  There will be more O2 in the
bottle while filling than with a proper CP filler but for short term storage
it doesn't seem to matter.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:01:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Clinitet. Clinitest! Clinitestclinitestclinitest!


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your riot gear...

Can't we....   ....all....  ....justgitalong?

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:28:18 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Glucose monitor

Brewsters:

Bret Morrow says:

>Marshall (and Dave), Clinitest is an out of date product.  The American
>Diabetes Association suggest that patients with diabetes who need to
>monitor glucose should use a self-monitoring BLOOD glucose monitor.  I
>don't know about using a blood glucose monitor on beer--any word on that

>Dave?

As far as I know, a glucose monitor would not work because at
the end of the fermentation there is no glucose left and in fact,
it probably disappears early in the fermentation. These monitors
have very specific membranes which limit the detection to glucose
alone.

As you note, Clinitest is out of date, without a doubt, for measuring
urine sugar, since there are very specific enzyme tests now
available ( e.g. CliniSTIX),  but Clinitest is nearly perfect in that it
measures all reducible sugars in beer. These are all fermentable.
It does not measure sucrose, but this doesn't cause a problem
as long as you limit the use of Clinitest to determining the end
of the fermentation.

My experience is that beer ferments to a Clinitest reading
of  <1/4% glucose (as the test reads) in reality it is reading
"% reducible sugar"as though it were glucose. When you get
this reading then your beer will have finished its fermentation. 


AlK's concern that this non-zero reading at the end of the
fermentation for ale yeasts represents a problem is
unfounded as I have indicated, since even high OG beers
finish at this same point. Likely it represents a sugar which
ale yeasts can't consume, but lager yeasts can, since I
often get 0% glucose after lagering. In any event it is
such a small amount as to be insignificant at <1/4%,
whatever it is.


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK 


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:46:05 -0400
From: "John A. Slusher" <jslusher at flash.net>
Subject: 1998 AHA National Awards

To all AHA members, especially those who participated in the 1998
Nationals.  After placing several telephone calls earlier this month to the
AHA director and other members of the AHA staff concerning the AHA
Nationals award distribution, I finally received my awards on 9-22-98.  The
problem was that after all of the waiting, I received THE WRONG AWARD!  I
was very disappointed after anxiously waiting for several months for its
arrival (2nd Place Herb and Spice Mead) and that the award I received was
for CIDER.  I placed a call to Brian Rezac, the director of the AHA, and
told him that the award that I received was incorrect.  Well almost as if
it was expected, I was told that I was number eight on the list so far that
had called concerning this.  I was then given to the Nationals organizer
Paul Gatza.  He asked me for my name and address.  This was so everyone who
has received an incorrect award will be contacted.  The recipients of the
incorrect awards will be told the address of were to ship the award.  The
AHA would then reimburse the incorrect recipient of the shipping charges.

Well as far as I concerned with this issuewhat the hell is AHA doing? Was
the guy shipping the award smoking something other than a cigarette when he
shipped the awards?  I cannot believe this!I have absolutely no guarantee
that I will receive my aware.  I am totally dependent on the honesty of my
fellow homebrewers to pass it on.  As far as the awards are concerned, they
certainly do not speak for the caliber of this competition.  The awards are
"chincy" to put it quite simply!the commemorative mug looks like 
something
I could buy out of the "Beer Enthusiast" catalog.  The medal itself falls
below that of what I have seen from other local homebrew competitions.  For
a competition of this level, especially for placing in the Nationals, we
are rewarded with a damn mug and a T-shirt.  I am sure if the AHA can
afford the exuberant salaries of consulting authors, that they could have
certainly distributed prizes worth the efforts of the homebrewers in this
competition.  Is this the future of the AHA?

After careful consideration, I have decided not to renew my membership with
the AHA no longer participate in the AHA National Competition.

John A. Slusher
204 Emerson Avenue
Glen Burnie, Maryland  21061
jslusher at flash.net
Chesapeake Real Ale Brewers Society
www.flash.net/~jslusher/crabs


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Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:51:05 EDT
From: Jbstrunk at aol.com
Subject: McEwan's Scotch Ale

Does anyone know of a recipe for this beer??  A earlier post said it was
sweetened with lactose - anyone know how much?

Other sites say this beer has 9.5% alcohol - what must the O.G. be??

Jbstrunk


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 01:58:53 -0600
From: The Greenman <greenman at sdc.org>
Subject: Extract Syrup question

Greetings:

I'm pretty new to the digest as well as to homebrewing.  I've brewed my
first two
batches since July.  My first was kit beer that due to some over-zealous
behavior on my
part, ranged in the 10% area on alcohol.  After what seemed like years
(to me since I'm
new to the art) the taste mellowed and I shared a bottle with a
"beer-hater."  He tried it
and aptly named it "Attitude Adjuster Ale" or "Triple A"  He has since
purchased the makings
of homebrewing and has begun his first batch.

My second batch was a bock in the traditional style.  It is lower in
alcohol and
liquid velvet in the glass.  I was proud enough to serve it to my German
friends.

My future father-in-law is the guy that got me hooked on brewing and
bought my
supplies and Papazian's books for my 21'st bday.  He and the brew-shop
are 140+
miles away.  There are other brew shops in the 80-100 mile range but I'm
unfamiliar
with them and its a little uneconomical to go supply shopping without a
recipe in
hand.  So its hard to get advice that's unavailable in the books.

I want to make a Brown Ale (extract brewing) and was trying to figure
out if its
better to use a malt base of 6.5 pounds (more or less of course) in
amber syrup or to mix
3.3 lbs of dark and 3.3 lbs of light.  And if it will work to use a high
fermenting
syrup (such as Munton and Fison) in adjuct with a low fermenting syrup
(such as John Bull)

Any suggestions?  Any good ideas?  Anything I may not have thought of? 
I crave the
knowledge
and the resulting beer.
- -- 
 .-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-.
 T. Daniel "Greenman" Griffin  
 "Knowledge is the herald of Sorrow" 
 "Now that beer is an Attitude Adjuster...I like it!"
 Student/Spod/ANGSTer/Brother/SysAdmin  
'-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-'


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:56:53 +0100
From: "Mort O'Sullivan" <tarwater at brew-master.com>
Subject: Oat Malt

Steve Alexander writes:

>Many, probably most other seeds cannot be expected to yield as
>much enzyme content as barley and wheat.  Rye will marginally malt.
>I'm not sure but suspect that oats will not.

Just looking at a raw oat grain, you would not expect it to malt very well
(its long and narrow shape makes even shrivelled 6-row barley look plump).
Oats have been malted sporadically throughout history, but were usually
only used as a small percentage of a brewer's grist. The use of malted oats
outside the baked goods/breakfast cereal industries is very rare today; one
notable exception is Maclay's of Alloa, who produce a nice Oat Malt Stout
(22% malted oats).
You are right in expecting lower enzyme levels in oats--alpha- and
beta-amylase levels only reach about 70-75% of those in malted barley.
Another problem with oats are the high beta-glucan levels. Because of lower
enzyme levels, long malting times and high malting losses are required to
avoid highly viscous worts. As a natural balance to this effect, husk
content of oats is very high (~30%, compared to about 10% in barley), and
this creates a more porous grain-bed, thus aiding run-off.
Not as much is known about enzyme production in oats as in barley and
wheat, but it is known that during malting, the oat scutellum separates
from its surrounding tissues and grows into the endosperm along the dorsal
side of the grain, releasing enzymes as it goes (this is certainly
different than way enzymes are released in barley malt).
Interestingly, rye does malt rather well, with enzyme levels close to and
sometimes  surpassing those in barley. Because it is a naked grain, it must
be treated carefully like wheat.

Cheers,
Mort O'Sullivan
Edinburgh, Scotland . . . but soon to be NYC



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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 06:59:49 -0600 (MDT)
From: BrewsTraveler at adamsco-inc.com
Subject: KROC World Brewers Forum



   The Keg Ran Out Club presents:

     _________________________________________________________________

                            "Real Old Beers"
     _________________________________________________________________

   at the "Fourth Annual KROC World Brewers Forum(tm)"


   Colorado's Keg Ran Out Club (KROC), presents an educational forum
   with:

       Ray Daniels
          President of the Craft Beer Institute and author of "Designing
	  Great Beers" and "101 Ideas for Homebrew Fun".
   
       Brad Kraus
          1997 GABF Kolsch Bronze Medal winner and Brewmaster at Wolf
	  Canyon Brewing Company.


   This landmark event entering its fourth year has brought together
   the brewing community for an evening of education, discussion,
   fellowship, and fun!  
   
   Previous Forum(sm) participants have had the opportunity to
   participate in discussions concerning Barley Wines, Wit beers,
   English Ales and Continental Pilseners from world-renown brewers
   and authors.

   This is a an excellent opportunity to meet local, national, and
   international brewers, sample fine beers, and win door prizes.


   The "KROC World Brewers Forum(tm)" is FREE but attendance is limited
   so RSVP ASAP!

   ______________________________________________________________________

   When:  7pm Thursday, October 1, 1998
   Where: Adam's Mark Hotel
          1550 Court Pl, Denver Colorado, 303-893-3333
   Cost:  FREE!
   RSVP:  303-460-1776 (Homebrew Hut) or BrewsTraveler at adamsco-inc.com
   Web:   http://www.henge.com/~mmather/kroc/wbf98.html
   ______________________________________________________________________


   The KROC World Brewers Forum(tm) is brought to you by:
      The Keg Ran Out Club (KROC)
      The American Homebrewers Association
      The Birko Corporation
      The Homebrew Hut



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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:02:46 +0200
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: popcorn

Hi,

Guy Gregory asked about using popcorn in beer.
Albeit IMO Americans are more familiar with popcorn than Europeans, I
was told that popped popcorn is indeed gelatinized, but it contains to
much fat (approx. 8-12 % oil) what will decrease the foam of the beer
(maize contains approx. 3-5 % oil).<snip>what wonderful flavors might
those be? <snip> I think the same as for Anheuser, Coors etc.

Greetings from Holland, Hans Aikema




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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:22:57 -0500
From: "Dave Olson" <Dolson at metrosales.com>
Subject: lye

Anyone from the upper-midwest (Minnesota specificly) knows that Lye is used
in food preperation all the time.  The first basic step in preparing
Lutefisk is to soak the fish in a tub of lye.  The fish must then be soaked
and rinsed with water to remove all the lye.  This gives Lutefisk its Jelly
like texture.  Yum!!  Well, back to beer..........

dave



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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:16:59 +0100
From: "Mort O'Sullivan" <tarwater at brew-master.com>
Subject: mashing popcorn

Guy Gregory writes:

>This time, somebody has got to tell me first.....popcorn?  Jeff, anybody,
is this
>legitimate, and can anyone please answer two questions: Is popped popcorn
>gelatinized, and ready to add its wonderful flavor to my beer?  What
wonderful
>flavors might those be?

"Popping" a grain is really just torrefication, and torrefied grains have
seen reputable use as brewer's adjuncts for years, so it's not at all
unusual. For example, Mordue Workie Ticket, winner of last year's GBBF soon
to be enjoyed at very select outlets in the USA, contains a healthy
percentage of torrefied wheat.
With torrefication, slightly wet grain (12-14% moisture) is moved in a
stream of hot (260C) air. As the internal water vapor pressure rises, the
grain swells and may burst open. This pre-cooking of the raw grain
naturally denatures any enzymes that may be present, but the extreme
heating also partly degrades beta-glucans and other semi-hellulosic
materials so torrified grains are not as viscous as raw grains. The popping
also disrupts the endosperm cell structure and some of the starches are
gelatinized. It is obviously still necessary to mash torrefied grains with
malt to convert its starches into fermentable sugars.
Torrefied barley and wheat are the most popular torrefied cereals used in
brewing. Torrefied corn is usually avoided because the whole grain is used
and the maize embryo has a high oil content (grits, which are purely
endosperm particles, are much preferred). Also, as the starches aren't
completely gelatinized during torrefication, cooking popcorn at >100C
before mashing is necessary to affect complete gelatinization. A small
percentage of popcorn added to the mash would probably not ruin your beer
but may adversely affect head retention and flavour stability. As for the
use of Crackerjacks, you would get some colour and flavour from the
caramel, but unless you sifted out the peanuts you would definitely have
elevated oil levels in your beer:-)
As for the flavour of torrefied grains, many brewers claim that too high a
level of torrefied grain results in beer with a bland flavour. However just
the right amount (usually less than 25%) is a cheap way to boost extract
without compromising too much on flavour.

Cheers,
Mort O'Sullivan
moving closer to Jeff Renner



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Date: 23 Sep 1998 09:25:29 -0400
From: EFOUCH at steelcase.com
Subject: Profanity


Adam said:

From: "silent bob" <holdenmcneil at hotmail.com>
Subject: Guiness "Tang"

Hell folks, I'm new to HBD,


Well, Damn, Adam, nice to finally hear from you!

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick Damn YoctoBrewery
Kentwood, MI


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:28:10 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Enzymes - temps more

"Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Many, probably most other seeds cannot be expected to yield as much enzyme
>content as barley and wheat.  Rye will marginally malt.  I'm not sure but
>suspect that oats will not.

>From context, I suspect that what Steve meant to write was that these
grains would or would not convert themselves, not that they would "malt."
They certainly will sprout.  This June I malted some oats.  They sprouted
very irregularly - some overgrew while others showed not sign of chitting
at all.  On average, I undermodified them because hot weather was
returning.  After drying and kilning, they smell very "malty."

I will be brewing an unhopped strong "Domesday Ale" using this oat malt
this Monday after a midieval recipe.  While the recipe is ambiguous, it
would seem that at least half of the original grain bill was oats, with
wheat and barley for the balance.  I will probably use 1/3 each by weight.
I'll report back.

>Just as a side note - a few years ago I noticed a barley shoot in my compost
>heap.  At the time the only unmalted grain I used was some black patent!  So
>after being malted, kilned and mashed - treated most barb'rously - this
>defiant
>little bugger still sprouted.  It's a real testament to the goodness of the
>design this  could even possibly happen.

C'mon, Steve.  That *had* to have been from some other source. (And I think
that black patent is malted).

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:23:17 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Other grains, or a new beer to take to the movies?

Guy Gregory <GuyG4 at aol.com> wrote:

>Jeff, anybody, is this legitimate, and can anyone please
>answer two questions: Is popped popcorn gelatinized, and ready to add its
>wonderful flavor to my beer?  What wonderful flavors might those be?

Your guess is as good as mine.  I'd say that it sounds gimmicky.  I have
brewed CAPs using some "instantized" yellow grits from Briess that tasted
"roasty"  when cooked and eaten.  Like roasted ear corn.  That flavor
carried slightly into the beer.  It wsa very subtle - I think you had to
know to look for it.  It was exotic, and I didn't like it in my beer.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:38:41 -0400
From: Matt Comstock <MComstock at shepherdcolor.com>
Subject: Large Volume Commercial Beers - What's in 'em?

Hey folks,

I've been brewing for about two months.  Until the recent batch, I've stuck
to a one-gallon scale, in part for lack of bottles.  I can't find
returnables anywhere, and I'll be damned if I'm going to buy a case of
empties for $12 from the local homebrew supply shop.  For the last couple
months I've been sampling a wide variety of good beers (and some not so
good) and saving the bottles.  I can tell you exactly how many bottles of
beer I've consumed in the last months. Anyway, I've had quite a break from
the run-of-the-mill-swill.  Well, I'm close to my bottle quota, so last
night I bought a 12-pack of Icehouse - my *old* regular.  The lack of
flavor, ANY flavor, in comparison to any of the 'microbrews' I've been
drinking lately, really surprised me.  Boy, did I get spoiled.

So I asked myself, self, how do they make this stuff taste so bland?
Really.  What ingredients go into these type of beers, like Bud, Miller,
Icehouse, etc.  Any hops?  Any MALT?  Is it all corn sugar?  I remember
reading about brewing at high gravity and than diluting....  

Curious and disappointed in Cincinnati (lessee, that's about 250 miles south
of Jeff Renner).

Matt


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:44:37 -0400
From: David Kerr <dkerr at semc.org>
Subject: re: Alt fermentation/Gump no more?

Jim Busch suggests:

> Ferment your 11.5-11.8P Alt at 56-61F for 3 days (it should be near 
> terminal at this point if you did the proper cell counts and O2).  
> Spund the tank when gravity is within 1P-0.5P of terminal (do a fast 
> forced ferment to determine your FG).

OK, how do I "spund" my tank?
*******
Jethro, where are you?  Has Darth Papazian delivered you to the dark
side?

Dave Kerr  Needham, MA 5 gal Alt, 5 gal Sticke  at  46F and falling
767 miles E of the CAP capital of the world
10 miles SW of the 1998 World Champion Red Sox


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:08:29 -0400
From: "Chuck Mryglot" <cmryglot at Progress.com>
Subject: Clone Brews

I received an ad in the mail yesterday for a book titled "Clone Brews" by
Tess and Mark Szamatuski.  Has anyone reviewed this book?   The title and
concept sound interesting, but I'm wondering how proven any of the recipies
might be.

chuckm



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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:11:06 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: More on Alts

Roger Deschner added some very good points regarding Alts:

<are boiled for 60 and 80 minutes, and you *DO* get some flavor and
<aroma out of them, partly because, to get 50 IBU, you're boiling a

This is quite true and something that all Alt judges need be aware 
of, especially if they have not been to the Altstadt.

<Neither of us favor sweet altbier. Some of the yeasts used (Wyeast
<1007, for instance) are highly attenuative, and you're making it 
<very hoppy. So, it is very easy to make hop tea here, unless you 
<have good residual unfermentables.

Certainly not sweet as exhibited by a Scotch Ale for instance.  The 
residual unfermenatables comment can be misunderstood though.

<I have followed the notes in this thread about attenuation levels 
<with a good deal of interest; there seem to be two camps here: 1) 
<use a low- attenuating yeast (e.g. Wyeast 1338) to leave residual 
<maltiness.

Maltiness is the key word here.  As for low attenuating, we are back 
to a definition of what is understood by low, medium and high ADA.  
But hey, words dont matter anymore anyway unless we all debate what 
'is' is?!

<Decoction (still practised by the Schumacher brewery in Dusseldorf,
<alone) is perfect here.

One comment I will make on decoctions is that one can make a beer 
that is  highly attenuated (76-80+% ADA) or one that is not with 
either decoction or step infusion mashing.  Decocted Maerzens are 
well attenuated too.

<. I don't decoct
<often, because it's such a ferocious additional pain to clean up

You lost me there?  Why?  Do you burn the decoction on the pot?

<after; it lengthens the brew day by several hours.

This is most true.  (well, at least an extra 40-60 mins for a single 
decoction).

<Anyway, one of the aromas you get in a great altbier, is not just 
<hop aroma, but also malt aroma

Exactly.

<. It is this combination of high 
<residuals from the malt, high hopping, and a highly attenuative 

OK now Im lost again, high residuals?

Zum Uerige: 50 BUs, 11.8P, 3P, 75% ADA, 4.5% ABV.  Medium to 
medium/high ADA.  High maltiness, low residual sweetness.  Fantastic 
"balance".

Prost!

Jim Busch


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:04:45 -0700
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Wiezen yeast

I recently made a Hefeweizen. In order to maximize clove 
phenolics and minimize banana esters, I did a rest at 100F and 
fermented at 64-65 F using White Labs Hefeweizen yeast. The 
beer is nice and light, slightly sweet (OG: 1.046, FG: 1.009), 
but has hardly any clove. A fair amount of banana is evident in 
the aroma and the flavor.

Anyone have experience with White Labs Hefeweizen yeast? 
did I ferment too warm? Too cool? The web page says the 
optimal fermentation temp is 68-72, but what they mean by
"optimal" is not defined.
http://www.whitelab.com/jump_page_for_yeast_strains.html

It also says attenuation is 72-76%.

Suggestions for next time?

  - Bryan

Bryan Gros	gros at bigfoot.com
Oakland, CA
Visit the new Draught Board homebrew website:
http://www.valhallabrewing.com/~thor/dboard/index.htm



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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:08:33 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Re: yeasties




From: Philip J Wilcox at CMS on 09/23/98 12:08 PM

Paul Haaf and I have been conversing on ~will kegging get rid of yeast
faster?~ I thought Id take it on-line...

My respose is why bother? Priming inherently will add more yeast to your
beer. Yeast while fermenting will also reproduce. Not at the huge rate
during the lag phase, but they are still going at it. The only time I have
EVER primed a keg was for a heff wiezen. Priming takes time and more fuss.
Force carbonating is less fuss, and makes cleaner beer faster.  What is to
debate about it?

Bubble size, to answer my own question. Many folks have claimed that force
carbonation gives bigger bubbles. For an english ale with that tight creamy
head this is not a good thing. Phooey, IMHO. Time is the only thing you
need. Priming takes 3 weeks, and slowly saturates the beer from the inside
out. Force carbonation takes hours to chill and minutes to saturate the
beer from the surface area exposed. (Shake-shake-shake) Which do you think
reachs equilibrium faster?

If you pick an imaginary point of being finished. Say exactly when each
beer reachs 2.2 ATM pressure. The primed keg will take 2-3 weeks and is at
equilibrium when it reaches it. The Forced keg will reach it 4 minutes
after you start shaking it with the gas on. But equilibrium wont be reached
for several more hours or days. Robert A. claims he gets the perfect head
each and every time he uses his method. I think this is exagerating a
little bit. I'll bet he hasnt made too many english milds or doesnt care
particularly about head density/bubble size.

Bubble size is mostly related to the gas used, the pressure and
temperature, and the dexrins in the beer. (+a dozen other little things)
The big huge Imperial stout I tossed into the fridge 2 weeks ago took 3 min
of shaking and it was done. A beautiful stout small bubbled tight head was
the result. Lots of thick chewy dextrins in that beer. If it were to have
been an Enlish Mild that is supposed to be "thin" tasting but still have a
head, - a lack of dextrins - I am quite sure the "tightness" would have
been missing, but the head would have looked like Killians. Medium sized
bubbles, consistent size, and disappating quickly. Nice, but better with
time.

The bottom line is that force carbonating will decrease the amount of yeast
in your beer, clear it more quickly and give you the perfect head in a few
hours where as priming will do the same thing in 3 weeks. And CO2 is
cheaper than suger, and can't infect your beer.

If you are trying to clear your beer faster. Kegging will help since you
are not adding more yeast to settle out, and you are adding pressure which
helps floc them out. Poly-clar, issinglass and gelatin can speed up the
process too but who want to add plastic, fishguts and cowcartalidge to
thier beer? Filtering is the other choice. But i'll leave that is for those
with more time, money and spilled beer than patience on their hands.

Phil Wilcox




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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:19:41 -0400
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Finally!

Brewsters:

Hooray!

AlK has finally promised publically to examine Clinitest as I have
asked him to do for many, many months (years?).  Now maybe
we can get this resolved.

Please remember Al, that my suggested use of Clinitest has nothing
to do with already bottled beers and the like.  Just measure the
% glucose ( or as we have both pointed out the % reducibles using
glucose as the standard) on your batches of beer as they finish
their fermentation.  If you are using a flocculent yeast or high
gravity OG, then you should follow good brewing practice and
keep it at a high enough temperature and rack the beer,
yeast and all, during fermentation to get the low % glucose
reading consistent with a fully fermented beer. 


Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ
Dave_Burley at Compuserve.com   

 


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:20:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: adjuncts and astringency

Michel writes (quoting me):
>>Why would astringency have anything to do with the amount of >adjunct 
>used?
> 
>Well, Al, *some* non-malt grains have a certain amount of dryness to 
>them that is perceived as astringency. Like Rye, or Oats. Good things 
>when used in the right proportions, but when overdone, can cause REAL 
>excessive dryness akin to astringency.

Hmmm... that's different from my experience.  I've never made a beer with
a lot of oats, but I've tasted a few and didn't get any more astringency
than similar beers with little or no oats.  I've personally made a rye
beer with 42% rye malt (which should lend no less astringency than raw
rye) and the beer was extremely thick and had an oily mouthfeel.  It was
luciously smooth and had no astringency.  Honest!  It had an OG of 1.070
and was highly hopped.  It did taste strongly of rye bread.  I called it
"RyePA."

>>Actually, oxidation can increase astringency because oxidized 
>>polyphenols have a different (more astringent) taste than unoxidised.  
>>
>I do believe that you mean *reduced* ;^)

When I read this initially, I was puzzled by the smiley and thought you
were disagreeing with me.  As it turns out, Michel means to point out
that I could have written "reduced" in place of "unoxidised."  In chemical
terms, "oxidised" and "reduced" are opposites.  The fact remains that
oxidised polyphenols (tannins) are more flavour-negative and astringent
*and* they are a significant contributor to permanent haze [Malting and
Brewing Science].

>>I do believe you are mistaken to blame astringency on adjuncts.
>>
>Perhaps, perhaps not -- I made a perfectly good Oatmeal stout last 
>spring, and it had a 2.5#/gal grain bill, with 2# of the grist coming 
>from Quaker Oats. After aging a few weeks, it started to develop some 
>dryness I've not noticed in lesser amounts. Too, a friend made some 
>"Roggenbier" last year that was basically a Bavarian Pils with a *POUND* 
>of Rye added. It was so dry that it made my eyes water! My tongue felt 
>like it had been grabbed by someone with a towel. Both beers were good 
>when first conditioned, but within two weeks, developed an unpleasant 
>dryness. Batches made later with lesser quantities of Oats/Rye were 
>excellent, and remained so for the end of the last glass 8*)

As I said before, a pound of rye or rye malt should not cause unpleasant
changes in flavour.  I think that perhaps other factors could be causing
the problem.  My RyePA had 5# of rye malt and 7# of Pale Ale malt for
5 gallons (that's right: 29+ points/lb/gal).  I don't recommend this much
rye unless you are very patient... it took me 3 hours to take 7 gallons
of runnings!

One other thing to consider is that rye *appears* (I'm not 100% sure) to be
high in ferulic acid (the precursor or 4-vinyl guaiacol, the compound that
gives Weizens their "clovey" character).  I used a very neutral yeast (I
believe it was Wyeast #1056 American Ale) and I got some 4-vinyl guaiacol!
Note that 4VG is a phenolic compound and if it were oxidised, it could
lend some very irritating astringent character.

I discussed this whole issue off-line with the original poster and we
came to terms that it was a matter of semantics and that it probably
wasn't the adjuncts that added the astringency.  The question of ferulic
acid and oxidised 4VG could explain the astringency, but then wouldn't you
specifically say "rye" and not the general term for non-enzymatic starch
sources: "adjuncts?"

I believe that we are in agreement once we get through all the semantics,
for which I perhaps am too much of a stickler...

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:33:12 CDT
From: "Roger Deschner " <U52983 at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject: Re: High Altitude Brewing Record

Congratulations and salutations to all who strive to brew at incredibly
high altitudes; it had occured to me to try it on the peak of Mt. Evans,
since it has a regular paved road, thereby avoiding having to carry all
that stuff up icy cliffs on my back.

My questions is, what modifications have you had to make to the brewing
process at these altitudes? Water boils at a temperature far below
212F/100C way up there. Do you get lower hop extraction rates? Any other
effects that might be interesting? Can you even mash - or does the mash
begin to boil when you try to mash out?

Roger Deschner      University of Illinois at Chicago     rogerd at uic.edu
Aliases:             USUICZ3P at IBMMAIL            u52983 at uicvm.uic.edu
=================== Wherever you go, there you are! ====================


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:01:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Alt conditioning

Gordon asks (about my Altbier recipe):
>how long and at what temperature do you cold condition?

I conditioned the beer for about three weeks at ambient winter cellar
temperature (in my cellar, that was about 63-65F).  I put some of
the bottles in the refrigerator at 40F and let those go a few months.
After six months, I compared the warm- and cold-conditioned.  The
*cold*-conditioned beer was a touch *fruitier*.  That was about the
only noticeable difference.  In my recipe I noted that lagering seemed
to make very little difference, remember?

Oh, by the way, I did forget to mention that this was for 5 gallons.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:11:52 +0000
From: Mike Beatty <mbeatty at ols.net>
Subject: Recommendations in St. Cloud?

Hello all-

Get to spend an evening in St. Cloud, MN next week and I am checking to
see if there are any microbreweries/brew pubs. Anybody know of anything
(good, preferably)?

Thanks!
- -- 
Mike Beatty
Intelligent Business Solutions
________________________________________________
Adopt a Collie! Check out: <http://www.collie.net/~pcc>
________________________________________________
Do you believe in Macintosh? <http://www.evangelist.macaddict.com/>


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:59:10 -0600
From: Bob Devine <bdevine at 10fold.com>
Subject: Hop museums

I wrote that the Hop Museum in Toppenish, WA (east side of
Washington state near the hop fields) is the only hop
museum.  Al Korzonas asked in a private message if that
was true. Al was write, there is at least one more museum
devoted to hops.  It is located in Poperinge, Belgium, near
the large hop growing regions in its western part.

General Poperinge info:
http://www.westhoek.be/poperinge/home/HomePage/klike.htm

National Hop Museum in Belgium:
http://www.westhoek.be/poperinge/home/HomePage/Toerisme/Engels/Hopmus.html

Does anyone know if the UK hop museum is still going? Al thought
there was one in Kent but I had heard a rumor it was closed or
scaled back to be open only sporadically.

thanks,
Bob Devine


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:10:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Shipping beer

Badger asks what's the best way to ship beer to a competition.  Bob
Paolino (Badgerific Bob, in some circles... what symmetry!) responds
with the suggestion of putting wrapped bottles into a sixpack carrier
which is then insulated from the walls of a larger box.

I'd like to add a few additional points.  My experience with broken
bottles at competitions is that the bottles are most often broken
due to contact *BETWEEN* bottles rather then contact between a bottle
and the world outside the box.  In other words, make sure that you
insulate the bottles well between one another.

When shipping three or fewer bottles, I've found that using alternating
holes in a sixpack carrier works well.  I stuff wads of crumpled newspaper
into the empty carrier holes.  When shipping even more beer, I'll usually
use 12 of the 24 holes in a case of beer and then put that beer box into
another cardboard box that is, ideally, only a few inches larger in each
dimension.  I then put crumpled newspaper (or reused large chunks of styrofoam 
from appliances) into the space between the two boxes.

Note also, that using the US Postal Service for alcohol is illegal and
competition organisers sometimes have to do some fast talking with postal
workers regarding leaking bottles (I know someone who has!).  UPS and
FedEx ship alcohol all over the country (there are even special UPS-logo
stickers that say "contains alcohol -- requires adult signature.")  However,
counter people don't always know all the rules and the rule that they
usually remember is "We reserve the right to refuse to ship any parcel."
Don't get into an argument (you'll lose)... just learn from the experience,
go to another UPS office and try again.  UPS satellite sites (like Mailboxes
Etc.) are often much less concerned about the contents than a UPS office.

So, the safest thing to do is to not tell them that the contents are beer.
"Non-perishable food" is a friendly compromise.  I even go so far as to
abbreviate the name of the receiving business, in some cases, to avoid
questions: "The Beer and Wine Makers" becomes "The B & W Makers" and
"Homebrew Heaven" becomes "HB Heaven."

I've found that FedEx is more expensive, but tends to treat the packages
a little more gently than UPS.  I believe that for next day (if you are
a procrastinator as I am) may even be less expensive with FedEx to some
destinations.


Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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---