HOMEBREW Digest #2832 Thu 24 September 1998

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Burtonisation/astringency (Al Korzonas)
  Clinitest... (Al Korzonas)
  Re: Easy Keg? (John Wilkinson)
  Clinitet. Clinitest! Clinitestclinitestclinitest! (Some Guy)
  Glucose monitor ("David R. Burley")
  1998 AHA National Awards ("John A. Slusher")
  McEwan's Scotch Ale (Jbstrunk)
  Extract Syrup question (The Greenman)
  Oat Malt ("Mort O'Sullivan")
  KROC World Brewers Forum (BrewsTraveler)
  popcorn (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  lye ("Dave Olson")
  mashing popcorn ("Mort O'Sullivan")
  Profanity (EFOUCH)
  Re: Enzymes - temps more (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Other grains, or a new beer to take to the movies? (Jeff Renner)
  Large Volume Commercial Beers - What's in 'em? (Matt Comstock)
  re: Alt fermentation/Gump no more? (David Kerr)
  Clone Brews ("Chuck Mryglot")
  More on Alts ("Jim Busch")
  Wiezen yeast ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Re: yeasties ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Finally! ("David R. Burley")
  adjuncts and astringency (Al Korzonas)
  Re: High Altitude Brewing Record ("Roger Deschner  ")
  Alt conditioning (Al Korzonas)
  Recommendations in St. Cloud? (Mike Beatty)
  Hop museums (Bob Devine)
  Shipping beer (Al Korzonas)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:27:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: Burtonisation/astringency Dave writes: >The Burton concentrations are from Noonan's New Brewin Lager Beer. The >one I'd be worried about is the SO4. According to Noonan again, "It gives >beer a dry, fuller flavor, although the taste can be objectionably sharp. >With Sodium and Magnesium it is catharatic. Above 500 ppm, it is strongly >bitter, and levels are best kept at less than 150 ppm unless the beer is >very highly hopped. With intensely bitter beers, sulfate at 150 to 350 >ppm gives a cleaner, more piquant bitterness." I have to disagree with Noonan here. Sulphate is not bitter and you can prove it to yourself. No amount of calcium sulphate (gypsum) or magnesium sulphate (Epsom Salts) added to water will cause the water to taste bitter. Try it! I have. What Noonan is omiting, and the point that is *most* important about sulphate, is that it increases the *perception* of bitterness from hops. In other words, 40 IBUs and 10ppm of sulphate will be less bitter than 30 IBUs and 350ppm of sulphate. >I recently brewed a pale ale where I tried to "Burtonize" the water. I >have fairly soft water, but not as soft as yours. After working out the >numbers, I added 15g CaSO4 to 6.5 gal mash water and 28g CaSO4 to 12 gal >sparge water. The beer was crap. A very hash bitterness/astingency was >noted. I'm going to dump it as soon as my next batch is ready. I'd back >way off on the sulfate and not necessarily shoot for the local brewing >water of your favorite brew city. I suggest you blame something other than your gypsum additions. I've added far more CaSO4 to water and brewed perfectly excellent Bitters. Also, if your beer was indeed astringent (most people use "astringent" interchangably with "bitter"... they are not the same... chew the peels from a dozen grapes - -- the sensation on the sides and underside of your tongue is astringency from the tannins in the grape skins), your problem could have been mash or boil pH or excessive sparging or too high a sparge temperature, but it could *not* have been caused by excessive sulphate. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:40:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: Clinitest... Dave writes: >You indignantly act like you know something in >number 3 which you cannot. You have NEVER tried Clinitest and everything >you say about it comes from your imagination. If you have the proof for >your comments in Number 3 let's see it. My previous polite response was to another post from Dave, prior to this inflamatory one. I need not stab myself in the eye with a letter opener to know that it will be painful, nor do I need experimental proof to have the right to discourage anyone on HBD from attempting this activity. Empirical proof of the utility of Clinitest is pending, however you may read the academic proof for yourself here: http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/articles/clinitest.html. I would like to point out that I have been extremely polite in this whole discussion and have refrained from personal attacks. As bored as I am with this discussion, I will *try* to continue to be civil. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 98 16:35:15 CDT From: jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com (John Wilkinson) Subject: Re: Easy Keg? Bowden Wise wrote: >I was wondering what the easiest way to keg is? I don't want >to get into a elaborate keg set up. I am planning on going to >an football game in few weeks and wanted to bring some homebrew. >Brining a keg might be easier than a case of bottles. > >So what's the simplest way to get into kegging? The basic kegging outfit is usually a five gallon Cornelius keg, a five pound CO2 bottle, a gas line from the CO2 bottle to a quick disconnect that attaches to the gas in fitting on the keg, and a beer line with a quick disconnect to attach to the liquid out fitting on the keg and a picnic, or cobra, tap on the other end of the line. For transportability you might want to buy a 2.5 or 3 gallon Cornelius type keg. You will need some way to keep the keg cold. There are insulated wraps advertised in Brewing Techniques and, I think, Zymurgy, or you could just carry the lot in an ice chest of appropriate size. This is all fairly bulky. One approach I have not tried but have seen advertised is a fitting for the gas in connector of the keg that holds a CO2 cartridge. I don't know how many pints this would dispense but would free you from the weight and bulk of the CO2 tank. There are also 2.5 pound CO2 tanks commonly used for home kegging systems. What I usually do is fill several bottles with a crude CP filler I put together and just carry the bottles in a cooler. Once when going to a NASCAR race where glass containers were not allowed I filled pint plastic water bottles with beer. That worked well and was light and compact. The crude CP filler I made consists of a #2 drilled stopper (#3 if using the plastic water bottles) with a length of racking cane through the hole. One end of the racking cane fits into the bottle with the stopper sealing and the other end of the racking cane fits into the spigot of the picnic tap. Chill the bottles first and start filling. The flow will stop when the pressure in the bottle reaches the delivery pressure. The stopper can be released slowly to let beer flow in. When full, stop the beer flow and cap. I use swing top Grolsch bottles or screw on plastic bottles. There will be more O2 in the bottle while filling than with a proper CP filler but for short term storage it doesn't seem to matter. John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - jwilkins at wss.dsccc.com Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:01:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Some Guy <pbabcock at oeonline.com> Subject: Clinitet. Clinitest! Clinitestclinitestclinitest! Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your riot gear... Can't we.... ....all.... ....justgitalong? See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at oeonline.com Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..." Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:28:18 -0400 From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Glucose monitor Brewsters: Bret Morrow says: >Marshall (and Dave), Clinitest is an out of date product. The American >Diabetes Association suggest that patients with diabetes who need to >monitor glucose should use a self-monitoring BLOOD glucose monitor. I >don't know about using a blood glucose monitor on beer--any word on that >Dave? As far as I know, a glucose monitor would not work because at the end of the fermentation there is no glucose left and in fact, it probably disappears early in the fermentation. These monitors have very specific membranes which limit the detection to glucose alone. As you note, Clinitest is out of date, without a doubt, for measuring urine sugar, since there are very specific enzyme tests now available ( e.g. CliniSTIX), but Clinitest is nearly perfect in that it measures all reducible sugars in beer. These are all fermentable. It does not measure sucrose, but this doesn't cause a problem as long as you limit the use of Clinitest to determining the end of the fermentation. My experience is that beer ferments to a Clinitest reading of <1/4% glucose (as the test reads) in reality it is reading "% reducible sugar"as though it were glucose. When you get this reading then your beer will have finished its fermentation. AlK's concern that this non-zero reading at the end of the fermentation for ale yeasts represents a problem is unfounded as I have indicated, since even high OG beers finish at this same point. Likely it represents a sugar which ale yeasts can't consume, but lager yeasts can, since I often get 0% glucose after lagering. In any event it is such a small amount as to be insignificant at <1/4%, whatever it is. Keep on brewin' Dave Burley Kinnelon, NJ 07405 103164.3202 at compuserve.com Dave_Burley at compuserve.com Voice e-mail OK Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 20:46:05 -0400 From: "John A. Slusher" <jslusher at flash.net> Subject: 1998 AHA National Awards To all AHA members, especially those who participated in the 1998 Nationals. After placing several telephone calls earlier this month to the AHA director and other members of the AHA staff concerning the AHA Nationals award distribution, I finally received my awards on 9-22-98. The problem was that after all of the waiting, I received THE WRONG AWARD! I was very disappointed after anxiously waiting for several months for its arrival (2nd Place Herb and Spice Mead) and that the award I received was for CIDER. I placed a call to Brian Rezac, the director of the AHA, and told him that the award that I received was incorrect. Well almost as if it was expected, I was told that I was number eight on the list so far that had called concerning this. I was then given to the Nationals organizer Paul Gatza. He asked me for my name and address. This was so everyone who has received an incorrect award will be contacted. The recipients of the incorrect awards will be told the address of were to ship the award. The AHA would then reimburse the incorrect recipient of the shipping charges. Well as far as I concerned with this issuewhat the hell is AHA doing? Was the guy shipping the award smoking something other than a cigarette when he shipped the awards? I cannot believe this!I have absolutely no guarantee that I will receive my aware. I am totally dependent on the honesty of my fellow homebrewers to pass it on. As far as the awards are concerned, they certainly do not speak for the caliber of this competition. The awards are "chincy" to put it quite simply!the commemorative mug looks like something I could buy out of the "Beer Enthusiast" catalog. The medal itself falls below that of what I have seen from other local homebrew competitions. For a competition of this level, especially for placing in the Nationals, we are rewarded with a damn mug and a T-shirt. I am sure if the AHA can afford the exuberant salaries of consulting authors, that they could have certainly distributed prizes worth the efforts of the homebrewers in this competition. Is this the future of the AHA? After careful consideration, I have decided not to renew my membership with the AHA no longer participate in the AHA National Competition. John A. Slusher 204 Emerson Avenue Glen Burnie, Maryland 21061 jslusher at flash.net Chesapeake Real Ale Brewers Society www.flash.net/~jslusher/crabs Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:51:05 EDT From: Jbstrunk at aol.com Subject: McEwan's Scotch Ale Does anyone know of a recipe for this beer?? A earlier post said it was sweetened with lactose - anyone know how much? Other sites say this beer has 9.5% alcohol - what must the O.G. be?? Jbstrunk Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 01:58:53 -0600 From: The Greenman <greenman at sdc.org> Subject: Extract Syrup question Greetings: I'm pretty new to the digest as well as to homebrewing. I've brewed my first two batches since July. My first was kit beer that due to some over-zealous behavior on my part, ranged in the 10% area on alcohol. After what seemed like years (to me since I'm new to the art) the taste mellowed and I shared a bottle with a "beer-hater." He tried it and aptly named it "Attitude Adjuster Ale" or "Triple A" He has since purchased the makings of homebrewing and has begun his first batch. My second batch was a bock in the traditional style. It is lower in alcohol and liquid velvet in the glass. I was proud enough to serve it to my German friends. My future father-in-law is the guy that got me hooked on brewing and bought my supplies and Papazian's books for my 21'st bday. He and the brew-shop are 140+ miles away. There are other brew shops in the 80-100 mile range but I'm unfamiliar with them and its a little uneconomical to go supply shopping without a recipe in hand. So its hard to get advice that's unavailable in the books. I want to make a Brown Ale (extract brewing) and was trying to figure out if its better to use a malt base of 6.5 pounds (more or less of course) in amber syrup or to mix 3.3 lbs of dark and 3.3 lbs of light. And if it will work to use a high fermenting syrup (such as Munton and Fison) in adjuct with a low fermenting syrup (such as John Bull) Any suggestions? Any good ideas? Anything I may not have thought of? I crave the knowledge and the resulting beer. - -- .-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-. T. Daniel "Greenman" Griffin "Knowledge is the herald of Sorrow" "Now that beer is an Attitude Adjuster...I like it!" Student/Spod/ANGSTer/Brother/SysAdmin '-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-' Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:56:53 +0100 From: "Mort O'Sullivan" <tarwater at brew-master.com> Subject: Oat Malt Steve Alexander writes: >Many, probably most other seeds cannot be expected to yield as >much enzyme content as barley and wheat. Rye will marginally malt. >I'm not sure but suspect that oats will not. Just looking at a raw oat grain, you would not expect it to malt very well (its long and narrow shape makes even shrivelled 6-row barley look plump). Oats have been malted sporadically throughout history, but were usually only used as a small percentage of a brewer's grist. The use of malted oats outside the baked goods/breakfast cereal industries is very rare today; one notable exception is Maclay's of Alloa, who produce a nice Oat Malt Stout (22% malted oats). You are right in expecting lower enzyme levels in oats--alpha- and beta-amylase levels only reach about 70-75% of those in malted barley. Another problem with oats are the high beta-glucan levels. Because of lower enzyme levels, long malting times and high malting losses are required to avoid highly viscous worts. As a natural balance to this effect, husk content of oats is very high (~30%, compared to about 10% in barley), and this creates a more porous grain-bed, thus aiding run-off. Not as much is known about enzyme production in oats as in barley and wheat, but it is known that during malting, the oat scutellum separates from its surrounding tissues and grows into the endosperm along the dorsal side of the grain, releasing enzymes as it goes (this is certainly different than way enzymes are released in barley malt). Interestingly, rye does malt rather well, with enzyme levels close to and sometimes surpassing those in barley. Because it is a naked grain, it must be treated carefully like wheat. Cheers, Mort O'Sullivan Edinburgh, Scotland . . . but soon to be NYC Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 06:59:49 -0600 (MDT) From: BrewsTraveler at adamsco-inc.com Subject: KROC World Brewers Forum The Keg Ran Out Club presents: _________________________________________________________________ "Real Old Beers" _________________________________________________________________ at the "Fourth Annual KROC World Brewers Forum(tm)" Colorado's Keg Ran Out Club (KROC), presents an educational forum with: Ray Daniels President of the Craft Beer Institute and author of "Designing Great Beers" and "101 Ideas for Homebrew Fun". Brad Kraus 1997 GABF Kolsch Bronze Medal winner and Brewmaster at Wolf Canyon Brewing Company. This landmark event entering its fourth year has brought together the brewing community for an evening of education, discussion, fellowship, and fun! Previous Forum(sm) participants have had the opportunity to participate in discussions concerning Barley Wines, Wit beers, English Ales and Continental Pilseners from world-renown brewers and authors. This is a an excellent opportunity to meet local, national, and international brewers, sample fine beers, and win door prizes. The "KROC World Brewers Forum(tm)" is FREE but attendance is limited so RSVP ASAP! ______________________________________________________________________ When: 7pm Thursday, October 1, 1998 Where: Adam's Mark Hotel 1550 Court Pl, Denver Colorado, 303-893-3333 Cost: FREE! RSVP: 303-460-1776 (Homebrew Hut) or BrewsTraveler at adamsco-inc.com Web: http://www.henge.com/~mmather/kroc/wbf98.html ______________________________________________________________________ The KROC World Brewers Forum(tm) is brought to you by: The Keg Ran Out Club (KROC) The American Homebrewers Association The Birko Corporation The Homebrew Hut Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:02:46 +0200 From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com> Subject: popcorn Hi, Guy Gregory asked about using popcorn in beer. Albeit IMO Americans are more familiar with popcorn than Europeans, I was told that popped popcorn is indeed gelatinized, but it contains to much fat (approx. 8-12 % oil) what will decrease the foam of the beer (maize contains approx. 3-5 % oil).<snip>what wonderful flavors might those be? <snip> I think the same as for Anheuser, Coors etc. Greetings from Holland, Hans Aikema Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:22:57 -0500 From: "Dave Olson" <Dolson at metrosales.com> Subject: lye Anyone from the upper-midwest (Minnesota specificly) knows that Lye is used in food preperation all the time. The first basic step in preparing Lutefisk is to soak the fish in a tub of lye. The fish must then be soaked and rinsed with water to remove all the lye. This gives Lutefisk its Jelly like texture. Yum!! Well, back to beer.......... dave Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:16:59 +0100 From: "Mort O'Sullivan" <tarwater at brew-master.com> Subject: mashing popcorn Guy Gregory writes: >This time, somebody has got to tell me first.....popcorn? Jeff, anybody, is this >legitimate, and can anyone please answer two questions: Is popped popcorn >gelatinized, and ready to add its wonderful flavor to my beer? What wonderful >flavors might those be? "Popping" a grain is really just torrefication, and torrefied grains have seen reputable use as brewer's adjuncts for years, so it's not at all unusual. For example, Mordue Workie Ticket, winner of last year's GBBF soon to be enjoyed at very select outlets in the USA, contains a healthy percentage of torrefied wheat. With torrefication, slightly wet grain (12-14% moisture) is moved in a stream of hot (260C) air. As the internal water vapor pressure rises, the grain swells and may burst open. This pre-cooking of the raw grain naturally denatures any enzymes that may be present, but the extreme heating also partly degrades beta-glucans and other semi-hellulosic materials so torrified grains are not as viscous as raw grains. The popping also disrupts the endosperm cell structure and some of the starches are gelatinized. It is obviously still necessary to mash torrefied grains with malt to convert its starches into fermentable sugars. Torrefied barley and wheat are the most popular torrefied cereals used in brewing. Torrefied corn is usually avoided because the whole grain is used and the maize embryo has a high oil content (grits, which are purely endosperm particles, are much preferred). Also, as the starches aren't completely gelatinized during torrefication, cooking popcorn at >100C before mashing is necessary to affect complete gelatinization. A small percentage of popcorn added to the mash would probably not ruin your beer but may adversely affect head retention and flavour stability. As for the use of Crackerjacks, you would get some colour and flavour from the caramel, but unless you sifted out the peanuts you would definitely have elevated oil levels in your beer:-) As for the flavour of torrefied grains, many brewers claim that too high a level of torrefied grain results in beer with a bland flavour. However just the right amount (usually less than 25%) is a cheap way to boost extract without compromising too much on flavour. Cheers, Mort O'Sullivan moving closer to Jeff Renner Return to table of contents
Date: 23 Sep 1998 09:25:29 -0400 From: EFOUCH at steelcase.com Subject: Profanity Adam said: From: "silent bob" <holdenmcneil at hotmail.com> Subject: Guiness "Tang" Hell folks, I'm new to HBD, Well, Damn, Adam, nice to finally hear from you! Eric Fouch Bent Dick Damn YoctoBrewery Kentwood, MI Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:28:10 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Enzymes - temps more "Steve Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> wrote: >Many, probably most other seeds cannot be expected to yield as much enzyme >content as barley and wheat. Rye will marginally malt. I'm not sure but >suspect that oats will not. >From context, I suspect that what Steve meant to write was that these grains would or would not convert themselves, not that they would "malt." They certainly will sprout. This June I malted some oats. They sprouted very irregularly - some overgrew while others showed not sign of chitting at all. On average, I undermodified them because hot weather was returning. After drying and kilning, they smell very "malty." I will be brewing an unhopped strong "Domesday Ale" using this oat malt this Monday after a midieval recipe. While the recipe is ambiguous, it would seem that at least half of the original grain bill was oats, with wheat and barley for the balance. I will probably use 1/3 each by weight. I'll report back. >Just as a side note - a few years ago I noticed a barley shoot in my compost >heap. At the time the only unmalted grain I used was some black patent! So >after being malted, kilned and mashed - treated most barb'rously - this >defiant >little bugger still sprouted. It's a real testament to the goodness of the >design this could even possibly happen. C'mon, Steve. That *had* to have been from some other source. (And I think that black patent is malted). Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:23:17 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Other grains, or a new beer to take to the movies? Guy Gregory <GuyG4 at aol.com> wrote: >Jeff, anybody, is this legitimate, and can anyone please >answer two questions: Is popped popcorn gelatinized, and ready to add its >wonderful flavor to my beer? What wonderful flavors might those be? Your guess is as good as mine. I'd say that it sounds gimmicky. I have brewed CAPs using some "instantized" yellow grits from Briess that tasted "roasty" when cooked and eaten. Like roasted ear corn. That flavor carried slightly into the beer. It wsa very subtle - I think you had to know to look for it. It was exotic, and I didn't like it in my beer. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:38:41 -0400 From: Matt Comstock <MComstock at shepherdcolor.com> Subject: Large Volume Commercial Beers - What's in 'em? Hey folks, I've been brewing for about two months. Until the recent batch, I've stuck to a one-gallon scale, in part for lack of bottles. I can't find returnables anywhere, and I'll be damned if I'm going to buy a case of empties for $12 from the local homebrew supply shop. For the last couple months I've been sampling a wide variety of good beers (and some not so good) and saving the bottles. I can tell you exactly how many bottles of beer I've consumed in the last months. Anyway, I've had quite a break from the run-of-the-mill-swill. Well, I'm close to my bottle quota, so last night I bought a 12-pack of Icehouse - my *old* regular. The lack of flavor, ANY flavor, in comparison to any of the 'microbrews' I've been drinking lately, really surprised me. Boy, did I get spoiled. So I asked myself, self, how do they make this stuff taste so bland? Really. What ingredients go into these type of beers, like Bud, Miller, Icehouse, etc. Any hops? Any MALT? Is it all corn sugar? I remember reading about brewing at high gravity and than diluting.... Curious and disappointed in Cincinnati (lessee, that's about 250 miles south of Jeff Renner). Matt Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:44:37 -0400 From: David Kerr <dkerr at semc.org> Subject: re: Alt fermentation/Gump no more? Jim Busch suggests: > Ferment your 11.5-11.8P Alt at 56-61F for 3 days (it should be near > terminal at this point if you did the proper cell counts and O2). > Spund the tank when gravity is within 1P-0.5P of terminal (do a fast > forced ferment to determine your FG). OK, how do I "spund" my tank? ******* Jethro, where are you? Has Darth Papazian delivered you to the dark side? Dave Kerr Needham, MA 5 gal Alt, 5 gal Sticke at 46F and falling 767 miles E of the CAP capital of the world 10 miles SW of the 1998 World Champion Red Sox Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 10:08:29 -0400 From: "Chuck Mryglot" <cmryglot at Progress.com> Subject: Clone Brews I received an ad in the mail yesterday for a book titled "Clone Brews" by Tess and Mark Szamatuski. Has anyone reviewed this book? The title and concept sound interesting, but I'm wondering how proven any of the recipies might be. chuckm Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:11:06 +0000 From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com> Subject: More on Alts Roger Deschner added some very good points regarding Alts: <are boiled for 60 and 80 minutes, and you *DO* get some flavor and <aroma out of them, partly because, to get 50 IBU, you're boiling a This is quite true and something that all Alt judges need be aware of, especially if they have not been to the Altstadt. <Neither of us favor sweet altbier. Some of the yeasts used (Wyeast <1007, for instance) are highly attenuative, and you're making it <very hoppy. So, it is very easy to make hop tea here, unless you <have good residual unfermentables. Certainly not sweet as exhibited by a Scotch Ale for instance. The residual unfermenatables comment can be misunderstood though. <I have followed the notes in this thread about attenuation levels <with a good deal of interest; there seem to be two camps here: 1) <use a low- attenuating yeast (e.g. Wyeast 1338) to leave residual <maltiness. Maltiness is the key word here. As for low attenuating, we are back to a definition of what is understood by low, medium and high ADA. But hey, words dont matter anymore anyway unless we all debate what 'is' is?! <Decoction (still practised by the Schumacher brewery in Dusseldorf, <alone) is perfect here. One comment I will make on decoctions is that one can make a beer that is highly attenuated (76-80+% ADA) or one that is not with either decoction or step infusion mashing. Decocted Maerzens are well attenuated too. <. I don't decoct <often, because it's such a ferocious additional pain to clean up You lost me there? Why? Do you burn the decoction on the pot? <after; it lengthens the brew day by several hours. This is most true. (well, at least an extra 40-60 mins for a single decoction). <Anyway, one of the aromas you get in a great altbier, is not just <hop aroma, but also malt aroma Exactly. <. It is this combination of high <residuals from the malt, high hopping, and a highly attenuative OK now Im lost again, high residuals? Zum Uerige: 50 BUs, 11.8P, 3P, 75% ADA, 4.5% ABV. Medium to medium/high ADA. High maltiness, low residual sweetness. Fantastic "balance". Prost! Jim Busch Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:04:45 -0700 From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com> Subject: Wiezen yeast I recently made a Hefeweizen. In order to maximize clove phenolics and minimize banana esters, I did a rest at 100F and fermented at 64-65 F using White Labs Hefeweizen yeast. The beer is nice and light, slightly sweet (OG: 1.046, FG: 1.009), but has hardly any clove. A fair amount of banana is evident in the aroma and the flavor. Anyone have experience with White Labs Hefeweizen yeast? did I ferment too warm? Too cool? The web page says the optimal fermentation temp is 68-72, but what they mean by "optimal" is not defined. http://www.whitelab.com/jump_page_for_yeast_strains.html It also says attenuation is 72-76%. Suggestions for next time? - Bryan Bryan Gros gros at bigfoot.com Oakland, CA Visit the new Draught Board homebrew website: http://www.valhallabrewing.com/~thor/dboard/index.htm Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:08:33 -0400 From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com> Subject: Re: yeasties From: Philip J Wilcox at CMS on 09/23/98 12:08 PM Paul Haaf and I have been conversing on ~will kegging get rid of yeast faster?~ I thought Id take it on-line... My respose is why bother? Priming inherently will add more yeast to your beer. Yeast while fermenting will also reproduce. Not at the huge rate during the lag phase, but they are still going at it. The only time I have EVER primed a keg was for a heff wiezen. Priming takes time and more fuss. Force carbonating is less fuss, and makes cleaner beer faster. What is to debate about it? Bubble size, to answer my own question. Many folks have claimed that force carbonation gives bigger bubbles. For an english ale with that tight creamy head this is not a good thing. Phooey, IMHO. Time is the only thing you need. Priming takes 3 weeks, and slowly saturates the beer from the inside out. Force carbonation takes hours to chill and minutes to saturate the beer from the surface area exposed. (Shake-shake-shake) Which do you think reachs equilibrium faster? If you pick an imaginary point of being finished. Say exactly when each beer reachs 2.2 ATM pressure. The primed keg will take 2-3 weeks and is at equilibrium when it reaches it. The Forced keg will reach it 4 minutes after you start shaking it with the gas on. But equilibrium wont be reached for several more hours or days. Robert A. claims he gets the perfect head each and every time he uses his method. I think this is exagerating a little bit. I'll bet he hasnt made too many english milds or doesnt care particularly about head density/bubble size. Bubble size is mostly related to the gas used, the pressure and temperature, and the dexrins in the beer. (+a dozen other little things) The big huge Imperial stout I tossed into the fridge 2 weeks ago took 3 min of shaking and it was done. A beautiful stout small bubbled tight head was the result. Lots of thick chewy dextrins in that beer. If it were to have been an Enlish Mild that is supposed to be "thin" tasting but still have a head, - a lack of dextrins - I am quite sure the "tightness" would have been missing, but the head would have looked like Killians. Medium sized bubbles, consistent size, and disappating quickly. Nice, but better with time. The bottom line is that force carbonating will decrease the amount of yeast in your beer, clear it more quickly and give you the perfect head in a few hours where as priming will do the same thing in 3 weeks. And CO2 is cheaper than suger, and can't infect your beer. If you are trying to clear your beer faster. Kegging will help since you are not adding more yeast to settle out, and you are adding pressure which helps floc them out. Poly-clar, issinglass and gelatin can speed up the process too but who want to add plastic, fishguts and cowcartalidge to thier beer? Filtering is the other choice. But i'll leave that is for those with more time, money and spilled beer than patience on their hands. Phil Wilcox Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:19:41 -0400 From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Finally! Brewsters: Hooray! AlK has finally promised publically to examine Clinitest as I have asked him to do for many, many months (years?). Now maybe we can get this resolved. Please remember Al, that my suggested use of Clinitest has nothing to do with already bottled beers and the like. Just measure the % glucose ( or as we have both pointed out the % reducibles using glucose as the standard) on your batches of beer as they finish their fermentation. If you are using a flocculent yeast or high gravity OG, then you should follow good brewing practice and keep it at a high enough temperature and rack the beer, yeast and all, during fermentation to get the low % glucose reading consistent with a fully fermented beer. Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Kinnelon, NJ Dave_Burley at Compuserve.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:20:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: adjuncts and astringency Michel writes (quoting me): >>Why would astringency have anything to do with the amount of >adjunct >used? > >Well, Al, *some* non-malt grains have a certain amount of dryness to >them that is perceived as astringency. Like Rye, or Oats. Good things >when used in the right proportions, but when overdone, can cause REAL >excessive dryness akin to astringency. Hmmm... that's different from my experience. I've never made a beer with a lot of oats, but I've tasted a few and didn't get any more astringency than similar beers with little or no oats. I've personally made a rye beer with 42% rye malt (which should lend no less astringency than raw rye) and the beer was extremely thick and had an oily mouthfeel. It was luciously smooth and had no astringency. Honest! It had an OG of 1.070 and was highly hopped. It did taste strongly of rye bread. I called it "RyePA." >>Actually, oxidation can increase astringency because oxidized >>polyphenols have a different (more astringent) taste than unoxidised. >> >I do believe that you mean *reduced* ;^) When I read this initially, I was puzzled by the smiley and thought you were disagreeing with me. As it turns out, Michel means to point out that I could have written "reduced" in place of "unoxidised." In chemical terms, "oxidised" and "reduced" are opposites. The fact remains that oxidised polyphenols (tannins) are more flavour-negative and astringent *and* they are a significant contributor to permanent haze [Malting and Brewing Science]. >>I do believe you are mistaken to blame astringency on adjuncts. >> >Perhaps, perhaps not -- I made a perfectly good Oatmeal stout last >spring, and it had a 2.5#/gal grain bill, with 2# of the grist coming >from Quaker Oats. After aging a few weeks, it started to develop some >dryness I've not noticed in lesser amounts. Too, a friend made some >"Roggenbier" last year that was basically a Bavarian Pils with a *POUND* >of Rye added. It was so dry that it made my eyes water! My tongue felt >like it had been grabbed by someone with a towel. Both beers were good >when first conditioned, but within two weeks, developed an unpleasant >dryness. Batches made later with lesser quantities of Oats/Rye were >excellent, and remained so for the end of the last glass 8*) As I said before, a pound of rye or rye malt should not cause unpleasant changes in flavour. I think that perhaps other factors could be causing the problem. My RyePA had 5# of rye malt and 7# of Pale Ale malt for 5 gallons (that's right: 29+ points/lb/gal). I don't recommend this much rye unless you are very patient... it took me 3 hours to take 7 gallons of runnings! One other thing to consider is that rye *appears* (I'm not 100% sure) to be high in ferulic acid (the precursor or 4-vinyl guaiacol, the compound that gives Weizens their "clovey" character). I used a very neutral yeast (I believe it was Wyeast #1056 American Ale) and I got some 4-vinyl guaiacol! Note that 4VG is a phenolic compound and if it were oxidised, it could lend some very irritating astringent character. I discussed this whole issue off-line with the original poster and we came to terms that it was a matter of semantics and that it probably wasn't the adjuncts that added the astringency. The question of ferulic acid and oxidised 4VG could explain the astringency, but then wouldn't you specifically say "rye" and not the general term for non-enzymatic starch sources: "adjuncts?" I believe that we are in agreement once we get through all the semantics, for which I perhaps am too much of a stickler... Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:33:12 CDT From: "Roger Deschner " <U52983 at UICVM.UIC.EDU> Subject: Re: High Altitude Brewing Record Congratulations and salutations to all who strive to brew at incredibly high altitudes; it had occured to me to try it on the peak of Mt. Evans, since it has a regular paved road, thereby avoiding having to carry all that stuff up icy cliffs on my back. My questions is, what modifications have you had to make to the brewing process at these altitudes? Water boils at a temperature far below 212F/100C way up there. Do you get lower hop extraction rates? Any other effects that might be interesting? Can you even mash - or does the mash begin to boil when you try to mash out? Roger Deschner University of Illinois at Chicago rogerd at uic.edu Aliases: USUICZ3P at IBMMAIL u52983 at uicvm.uic.edu =================== Wherever you go, there you are! ==================== Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:01:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: Alt conditioning Gordon asks (about my Altbier recipe): >how long and at what temperature do you cold condition? I conditioned the beer for about three weeks at ambient winter cellar temperature (in my cellar, that was about 63-65F). I put some of the bottles in the refrigerator at 40F and let those go a few months. After six months, I compared the warm- and cold-conditioned. The *cold*-conditioned beer was a touch *fruitier*. That was about the only noticeable difference. In my recipe I noted that lagering seemed to make very little difference, remember? Oh, by the way, I did forget to mention that this was for 5 gallons. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:11:52 +0000 From: Mike Beatty <mbeatty at ols.net> Subject: Recommendations in St. Cloud? Hello all- Get to spend an evening in St. Cloud, MN next week and I am checking to see if there are any microbreweries/brew pubs. Anybody know of anything (good, preferably)? Thanks! - -- Mike Beatty Intelligent Business Solutions ________________________________________________ Adopt a Collie! Check out: <http://www.collie.net/~pcc> ________________________________________________ Do you believe in Macintosh? <http://www.evangelist.macaddict.com/> Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:59:10 -0600 From: Bob Devine <bdevine at 10fold.com> Subject: Hop museums I wrote that the Hop Museum in Toppenish, WA (east side of Washington state near the hop fields) is the only hop museum. Al Korzonas asked in a private message if that was true. Al was write, there is at least one more museum devoted to hops. It is located in Poperinge, Belgium, near the large hop growing regions in its western part. General Poperinge info: http://www.westhoek.be/poperinge/home/HomePage/klike.htm National Hop Museum in Belgium: http://www.westhoek.be/poperinge/home/HomePage/Toerisme/Engels/Hopmus.html Does anyone know if the UK hop museum is still going? Al thought there was one in Kent but I had heard a rumor it was closed or scaled back to be open only sporadically. thanks, Bob Devine Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 13:10:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> Subject: Shipping beer Badger asks what's the best way to ship beer to a competition. Bob Paolino (Badgerific Bob, in some circles... what symmetry!) responds with the suggestion of putting wrapped bottles into a sixpack carrier which is then insulated from the walls of a larger box. I'd like to add a few additional points. My experience with broken bottles at competitions is that the bottles are most often broken due to contact *BETWEEN* bottles rather then contact between a bottle and the world outside the box. In other words, make sure that you insulate the bottles well between one another. When shipping three or fewer bottles, I've found that using alternating holes in a sixpack carrier works well. I stuff wads of crumpled newspaper into the empty carrier holes. When shipping even more beer, I'll usually use 12 of the 24 holes in a case of beer and then put that beer box into another cardboard box that is, ideally, only a few inches larger in each dimension. I then put crumpled newspaper (or reused large chunks of styrofoam from appliances) into the space between the two boxes. Note also, that using the US Postal Service for alcohol is illegal and competition organisers sometimes have to do some fast talking with postal workers regarding leaking bottles (I know someone who has!). UPS and FedEx ship alcohol all over the country (there are even special UPS-logo stickers that say "contains alcohol -- requires adult signature.") However, counter people don't always know all the rules and the rule that they usually remember is "We reserve the right to refuse to ship any parcel." Don't get into an argument (you'll lose)... just learn from the experience, go to another UPS office and try again. UPS satellite sites (like Mailboxes Etc.) are often much less concerned about the contents than a UPS office. So, the safest thing to do is to not tell them that the contents are beer. "Non-perishable food" is a friendly compromise. I even go so far as to abbreviate the name of the receiving business, in some cases, to avoid questions: "The Beer and Wine Makers" becomes "The B & W Makers" and "Homebrew Heaven" becomes "HB Heaven." I've found that FedEx is more expensive, but tends to treat the packages a little more gently than UPS. I believe that for next day (if you are a procrastinator as I am) may even be less expensive with FedEx to some destinations. Al. Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL korz at xnet.com http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ Return to table of contents
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