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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Consistency in priming/carbonation ("Fred L. Johnson")
  Lead Poisoning (PAUL W HAAF JR)
  3 burners, 1 regulator ("Steve")
  Re: Easy Keg (John_E_Schnupp)
  Re HERMS Thoughts (RobertJ)
  leached lead (kathy)
  Re: Reverse HERMS?/SHMS/New Web Site ("Ludwig's")
  Collar design for an upright freezer (MLogan8534)
  specialty malts ("silent bob")
  Re: copper stains (Tim Anderson)


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Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 07:57:41 -0400
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Consistency in priming/carbonation

We have all read in numerous texts of the 3/4 cup of dextrose rule for
priming 5 gal. of many (most) beers to achieve the appropriate level of
carbonation.  In fact, some texts and homebrewers strongly warn against
using very much more for fear of creating gushers or bottle bombs.  I
submit for discussion to the collective that this is yet another momily
(just consider how much dextrose one would prime a Bavarian Weizen with),
but I raise a more important question based upon some information that
doesn't seem to appear in the textbooks:

According to a successful, knowledgeable, and careful commercial brewer in
the area (with plenty of homebrewing experience), the CO2 in the finished
beer is only partially derived from the priming sugar.  In fact, in his
commercial operation, there is about 1.2 volumes of CO2 in the "finished"
beer and a typical homebrew will probably have about 0.8-1.2 volumes of
CO2 in it.  (As you know, this is only about half of the final desire
carbonation level.)  If left in the secondary for varying amounts of time
after the fermentation is complete, then the amount of CO2 in the finished
beer will likewise vary, decreasing with time.  Accordingly,  the amount
of priming sugar required to carbonate the beer to the desired level will
conceivably vary widely, depending upon the time spent in the secondary
after fermentation is complete.  (Compare this with the recommendation of
C. Papazian and other authors to put the secondary away in a comfortable
place for extended periods of time, forgetting about bottling until you
have the time and the urge strikes you, with no regard for the principal
of constant decreasing CO2 of levels in the beer.)

Someone may suggest that racking to the priming container essentially gets
rid of most of the beer's CO2 before it is bottled, bringing all beers to
the same starting point.  Perhaps this is true and would explain why
commercial practices may be different that that of homebrewers.  All I
know is that I have bottled with precisely weighed dextrose into precisely
known volumes and get dissapointingly high variability in my carbonation
levels.  For example, I primed a Weizenbock (that sat in the secondary for
5 weeks) with 38 g dextrose/gallon (about 1.5 times that of my American
pale ales) and it has been judged to be "undecarbonated", especially for
the style.

So, is the CO2 content of the beer at bottling time a variable or not?
And if so, does one have to decarbonate the beer before bottling and use
considerably  more than 3/4 cup dextrose per 5 gallons ?  How would this
be applied to kegging?

Comments?
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA





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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 08:39:16 -0400
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com (PAUL W HAAF JR)
Subject: Lead Poisoning

Wasn't Italian wine and lead goblets part of the downfall of Rome?  Since
the wine wasn't up to par with what the Romans were used to, they would
'sweeten' it by drinking it from lead goblets.  This habit, added to
their other 'quirks', shortened their reign and lifespan.
This is the kind of stuff that fills my brain, instead of really useful
info.
Cheers, 
Paul Haaf      haafbrau1atjunodotcom

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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 09:15:58 -0400
From: "Steve" <stjones1 at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: 3 burners, 1 regulator

Howdy, brewsters:

Chris writes in HBD 2840:

<snip>
Is it possible to have 3 burners run off the same
propane source?
<snip>

I built the 3 burners on my 3 tier system modeling
them after the King Kooker jet style burners. I
use 1 propane bottle with a regulator for a gas
grill. I feed the propane into a manifold made
from 1/4" ip and 3 needle valves using 1/4" flared
copper tubing to each burner. I rarely have all 3
burners going at once, but often have 2 going.
I've had no problems at all.

Hoppy Brewing

Steve
State of Franklin Homebrewers
~650 miles south of Jeff in Johnson City,
Tennessee
http://home.att.net/~stjones1



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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 06:48:33 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: Re: Easy Keg

>In the recent discussions of an easy way to get into kegging, the use of
>plastic soft drink bottles with Carbonator type caps has been suggested.
>This is fine as far as being a handy way to carry beer but is little
cheaper

This worked great for me when I went to a July 4 party on my motorcycle.  I
was also on a 2 week spin around the NE and didn't really have the room to
cart a keg with me the whole trip.  The $.99 it cost for the 3L soda bottle
was worth it.  The only thing I had to keep with me was the tap cap.

>and probably not as easy as using Cornelius type kegs.  The cheapest part
of
>a kegging setup is the kegs.  The real expense is in the CO2 tank and
>regulator.  If one is going to have CO2 they might as well spend another

For real portability, I used one of those bicycle tire inflatiors, the kind
that uses CO2 bulbs.  You may need to make an adapter depending upon your
situation so being handy with tools and soldering is a plus.  Another less
painless way to used these inflation devices is to put a valve stem right
in the center on the keg lid.  I've done it to all my kegs.  There are a
lot of pluses for this.  Some are:  adding CO2 to keg without having to
connect the quick connects, able to check the actual pressure in the keg
without having to account for line/check valve pressure losses, use a
CO2 inflator for portable use.

>$15US or so for a five gallon Cornelius type keg.  The soft drink bottles

Why not try a 3 gallon size.  They are the same diameter as 5 gallons
just a little shorter.  They are a little more portable.  I use these
because they don't take up so much space in my fridge.  I can keep the
top shelf in place for storage of bottles.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 10:28:09 -0400
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Re HERMS Thoughts

In HBD 2840 Brad Plummer wrote:

I have also discussed this offline with Ron Babcock and he has gotten 
me thinking of using a counter-flow WC instead of the HE coil as the 
immersion chiller.  This would definitely save clean up time.  I have 
plenty of copper; just need to put it to good use.

- -----
When we first started with the PBS HERMS idea, we used a counterflow wort
chiller for heating the mash. The only difficulties we saw were: 1. We
needed an additional pump to move the heating water while circulating wort.
2. Controlling heating was a bit more involved than with PBS HERMS
(control; heating water temp due to additional heat loss when pumping,
heating water flow, wort flow) 3. As mash came up to temperature it was
diffcult to keep recirculating temp at or below 158F.

In short the use of a cf chiller from our experience will work. It's just
not as simple and fool proof as PBS HERMS. You, as a brewer, have to
determine what will work best in meeting your priorities of; simplicity,
speed and cost and your desire to tinker.

Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://www.pbsbeer.com


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Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 09:53:41 -0500
From: kathy <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: leached lead

Thanks Nathan for the interesting anctedote about the pub owner. 

It reminded me that when drawing drinking or brewing water, those with
lead pipe supply lines from the street to the basement (many houses
built in the 1920's and earlier) or those with lead solder systems
(copper pipe thru the mid 1990's) should let the overnight water in
their pipes run until it changes from house temperature to ground
temperature.....which is usually colder.  The water standing in those
pipes may have leached some lead from the pipes and/or solder.

When we flush the toilet first thing in the AM, this usually does the
purge the pipes bit.  Let the coffee water run till it feels cold.  

cheers,  jim booth




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Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 22:42:42 -0400
From: "Ludwig's" <dludwig at us.hsanet.net>
Subject: Re: Reverse HERMS?/SHMS/New Web Site

David Houseman writes:
> So I'd been thinking about reversing the process
> and just putting the immersion chiller into the Gott mash/lauter tun and
> pumping the hot/boiling water through it to heat the mash.  This would
> seem to perhaps be gentler on the wort and more controllable.  What do
> the HERMS-knowledgeable folks think of this approach? 
 
I have to agree with you Dave. I just finished building a system as you
describe. I do think you need a mixer along with the coil to improve the
efficiency. I've just published a web site describing some of the
brewing equipment at the Flat Iron Brewery, including the SHMS. If you
go there, keep in mind it's a work in progress. The address is
http://www.us.hsanet.net/user/dludwig/index.html.

Cheers,

Dave Ludwig
Flat Iron Brewery
SO MD


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Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:25:46 EDT
From: MLogan8534 at aol.com
Subject: Collar design for an upright freezer

Dearest Collective:

I have recently had the good fortune to acquire a mid-sized upright freezer
for free. 
It has the coils fixed to the shelves, making the shelves fixed. Since I need
a place where I can ferment my 5 gal carboys I am looking into expanding the
cooled space.. 

Here is what I am thinking..
I want to remove the door, build a collar out several feet, and re-attach the
door to the collar. I haven't settled on the exact dimensions but I want room
for at least 2 carboys. 

I have read the archives concerning the matter, and it seems this has
been done sucessfully on the chest-type freezers. Has anyone this sort of
thing to an upright? 

Here are my thoughts so far..
Since I live in a hot climate (in the summer at least), I want to insulate the
collar. I have considered using plywood and 2x6 studs with regular fiberglass
insulation and, a vapor barrier of course.

Although it is a bit more expensive, I have also considered using 2 inch thick
ridgid foam insulation that has a foil backing on both sides. Maybe one layer
of this could be used as a vabor barrier/insulator in combination with a
thinner fiberglass insulation designed for a 2x4 wall, all set in my 2x6
frame. 

Is there an easier way?

Also, I will be hooking up a temperature controller, any recommended models
here?

Thanks

Mike Logan
Bakersfield, CA


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Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 18:26:43 PDT
From: "silent bob" <holdenmcneil at hotmail.com>
Subject: specialty malts

Hello to HBD,

Many folks have E-mailed me privately to comment on the need for a 
protein rest with specialty malts.  I made the comment that specialty 
malts were frequently made from lower quality grain.  The concensus, 
which I do concede is correct is that continental maltsters do not use 
lower quality grain for their "specialties", but do use higher protien 
malts.  However, these malts are overmodified (even by continental 
maltsters) precluding the need for a protien rest.  Also, although it is 
true that six row was commonly used by american maltsters for their 
specialty malts, this is no longer the rule, and even when it is, it is 
also over modified, again precluding the need for a protien rest.  
Thanks to the respondants for the clarification, and apologies to anyone 
to whom I didn't help to understand the topic.

Adam

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Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 18:57:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tim Anderson <timator at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: copper stains

Dang!  Left the subject off my earlier message.  This shoulda been it.

tim






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