---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  My First Decoction (Jim Bentson)
  Recent HBD Noise Level (Jim Bentson)
  Brewer's Gold hops ("Jay Krause")
  re Fruit Flies; First Wort Hopping; The C... Debates (Allen W Senear)
  Exterminator Recipe (Charles Burns)
  Stopper borers/Source for keg parts ("H. Dowda")
  Put up or.... (Steve Potter)
  Re: oxidised starters/budget "Carbonators"/HSA and other musings (Jim Graham)
  Re:source for CO2 cylinders (Gary H Nazelrod)
  DC Water (James D Thompson)
  No Subject (Lou.Heavner)
  What beverage goes with Spam? (PAUL W HAAF JR)
  PET storage (PAUL W HAAF JR)
  RE: Pewter ("Timothy Green")
  RE: RIMS turbulence & trapped air (LaBorde, Ronald)
  RE: Subject: 240V GFI (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Re:Re>New Brewer Questions (Gary H Nazelrod)
  Review of "Clone Brews" Book (Jim Bentson)
  Censorhip/Pumpkin Beer (Eric.Fouch)
  lactic vs phosphoric/propane cookers (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
  Drilling stoppers (Badger Roullett)
  KEGS (Badger Roullett)


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Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 14:56:28 -0400
From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at longisland.com>
Subject: My First Decoction

Hi All

A few weeks ago I did my first decoction ( a single) and was amazed at how
easy it was. I attribute my success to two things.
 
First, the incredible amount of information I learned from this forum and
from the archives. This allowed me to plan out what I needed to do well
ahead of time.

 The second is that I have brewed enough all-grain's that I have gotten to
the point where I can completely predict my required water usage prior to
brewing. There is something almost magical in watching the sparge tank run
dry within one quart of my target collection volume. This ability to manage
your water allows you to set your mash and sparge water up the night before
and have it ready the next day. No additional water is needed

Some of the things I did that helped are listed below. They probably are
most applicable to the 5-6 gallon batch size I brew:

1) For properly crushed malt ( based on my brewpub apprenticeship), I found
that approximately 1 quart of water per pound is almost completely absorbed
and leaves a very thick mash. 1.1 quarts per pound was what I used and was
much more stirrable in the decoction pot. I therefore set my mash water
volume to this level , premeasured it the night before and added the
necessary gypsum.The remaining water was acidified to a pH of 5.8 for
sparging. On brew day I took a small amount of the sparge water ( 4 qts )
and set it to boil  in the kitchen so that I had both hot and cold sparge
water handy for temp. changes and/or thinning as needed. One interesting
point is that the gypsum treated mash water was cloudy and some of the
gypsum precipitated out two hours after it was added BUT the next day the
water was clear and all the gypsum dissolved!!  Overnight pre-treatment of
your water might be useful to do for any mash schedule to allow for
complete dissolution of the gypsum

2) I mash in my boil kettle and have a separate stainless steel lauter-tun.
After many all-grain brews I would still use this set up even if I had a
Gott cooler ( ie use the kettle as a mash-tun and the cooler as a
lauter-tun) just based on the ability to control mash temperature increases
better through heat addition without thinning the mash. I use a small (35K)
multi-ring ( three gas valves) burner so scorching is no problem.For the
decoction I pulled about 70% of the grain with a strainer and then added
sufficient liquid to just fill the voids as per Steve Alexanders discussions.
It worked out real well. 

3) Have a sufficient number of large pots on hand. As I have moved up in my
brewing life I have acquired a 12 qt, 20 qt and a good 38 qt pot. If I were
starting my equipment I would get a 16qt and 20 qt cheap pot to complement
my brew kettle.I used the 12 qt for the decoction pot and the 20 qt for the
mash-tun. The big kettle was used to get all my sparge water heated while
the mash proceeded. The decoction could be done on a kitchen stove this way
with better control of the heat. I used my propane burner for the decoction.

4) Plan,plan and plan. Decoction is not hard but requires the brewer to
keep tighter control on his timing since you actually have two different
parts of the mash on different schedules that need to come together at the
same time, while still needing to heat water etc. The main thing is to
think out on paper exactly how much time each step should take and exactly
what pots are in use at any stage. I made a time-line list that I was able
to hit right on the head. 

 5) The decoction added 1 hour to the time of an equivalent single infusion
and probably only 20 min to the two-step infusion I usually use.The beer (
a wheat beer) tastes really good. I can see an improvement in flavor. Just
watching the change in the decoction mash as you boil it is worth the
trouble. The mash goes from the normal mash appearance to an almost liquid
appearance as the boil progresses. 

6)  When mixing the decoction back in to the main mash, do it slowly and
stir well, checking the temperature frequently. This is the only part that
I almost screwed up as I expected to undershoot my required mixed temp. and
dumped the whole decoction into the mash-tun, stirred and hit 80 degC!!
A quick dose of cool sparge water mixed in got me back to my intended
target and the fermentation went to expected completion so no harm seems to
have been done.

All in all it was easy, a lot of fun and worth the effort though definitely
not for the inexperienced in my opinion.

Jim Bentson
Centerport NY



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Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 13:09:07 -0400
From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at longisland.com>
Subject: Recent HBD Noise Level

Hi All;
A quick comment on the rising noise level from the two "C'' debates. My
views are as follows;

1) The Clinitest issue is finally undergoing a long overdue
outside,controlled experiment that will benefit all. Al and Dave both seem
satisfied. No one is to blame for the delay in this test but ourselves.
Most of us sat back and watched the debate build without getting involved
in actually performing the necessary tests on our own brews. Any testing by
one of the principals in the debate would have probably been viewed
suspiciously by the other. Compare our lack of involvement to how many
people are actually brewing Alts as a result of the debate about the grain
bill of that beer.

2) My reading of last weeks posts tell me that Steve Alexander and many
other readers have a legitimate concern about the possibility of the
filtering of message content. At the same time I read the steering
committees responses and I do not feel that they are trying to do anything
sinister here. I think that both sides have now stated their cases and each
side should therefore be aware of the concerns of the other faction. As
such,  I suggest we should be able to drop the issue of censorship until
such time as any real proof of an attempt at censorship arises.

3) My last point is that it probably required all the acrimony about
Clinitest to actually get the necessary people involved simply because as
Louis pointed out, this type of testing work is really time consuming. It
is well known that a crisis is often needed to move  personal relationships
out of a "stuck" pattern of behavior. Let us consider all that has passed
to be our own "crisis" and move on to new brewing ideas and recipes.

Jim Bentson
Centerport NY



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Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 19:10:14 -0500
From: "Jay Krause" <krause at galis.com>
Subject: Brewer's Gold hops

Hi all,

A simple question I hope.  I am having trouble finding Brewer's Gold hops in
any form.  What would be a good substitute for this variety?  Also has
anyone purchased anything from "Southern Stainless"?  They have a 10 gallon
brew kettle for only $120.

TIA

Jay Krause
Keeper of Jay's Beer Label of the Week
http://members.tripod.com/~beerlable
This week's label is "Eichbaum"







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Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 20:46:56 -0700
From: Allen W Senear <senear at seanet.com>
Subject: re Fruit Flies; First Wort Hopping; The C... Debates

FRUIT FLIES:	Mark A Bayer asked whether fruit flies in his starter would
lead to a gross infection.  Mike Maceyka replied
	 "Inocclulated it with bacteria: absolutely.  Contaminated it, i.e.
will this ruin my beer: yes, in all probability."
	I did this experiment inadvertently back at the end of August (just
about the time I was applying for a position in a lab studying
Drosophila developmental genetics). I had built up a starter in several
steps, allowed it to go dormant for about three days, then poured off
most of the old beer and added new wort before starting my brew day. I
discovered the flies in my starter many hours later as I was about to
pitch my yeast (Wyeast 1968, London ESB) into my first all-grain version
of my Boulder Drop Bitter.  At this point (it was late enough in the
evening that I couldn't run out to any of the local HB shop for some dry
yeast) I didn't really have any other option than to pitch the starter
(minus the two flies) and hope for the best.  A quick taste of the
starter didn't turn up anything too disastrous.  Yesterday I opened the
first bottle and I was very happy with the product (thanks to Marc
Battreal, Regan Pallandi and Barry Ward for their responses a few months
ago to an HBD inquiry of mine that helped in formulating the recipe.)
	Was the starter contaminated?  I am sure it was, to some extent.
	Did it matter in this case?  Probably not appreciably, unless my beer
was infected some unidentified bacteria or wild yeast that added a
special something extra so that I will never be able to repeat this
success.  Perhaps I was OK because I had already built up enough yeast 
in the starter that the infecting microbes couldn't compete efficiently,
or perhaps they got in late enough that high ethanol levels inhibited
their growth.
	Would I intentionally infect my beer with fruit flies?  No, and I wish
the flies would realize it is no longer summer in Seattle and depart
from my kitchen / brewery.  Maybe this incident will teach me to have a
couple of packets of dry yeast on hand for the next time I have a
starter problem (but that was several weeks ago and I haven't done
anything yet.)
	I believe that this experience once again reiterates one of the basic
rules of brewing:  Although there are many things, especially lapses in
sanition, that can ruin your beer, few of them will do so every time;
until you have irrefutable experimental evidence (ie tasting) that your
beer is definitely bad, don't despair or dump, it may well be fine, or
at least good enough for the uninvited house guests who have printed up
stationary with your address and phone number on it.  I recently had one
of my early batches finally transform itself after five months in the
bottle from something I could drink but with little enthusiasm into a
pretty good beer (unfortunately I drank over half the batch while it was
still only in the tolerable stage.)
	By the way since Marc Bayer's tag said "Boeing", I wonder if he is also
a Seattlite; did we perhaps share the same fruit flies?

FIRST WORT HOPPING:	Awhile back there was a fair amount of discussion of
First Wort Hopping (FWH), but several issues seemed unresolved at that
point.  One question that seemed to be left hanging was what kind of
bittering levels (IBU) one would get from FWH.  Have any of you who have
been experimenting with FWH gotten a better handle on this recently, so
that we would know how to plug FWH into the various
methods/algorithm/programs for calculating IBU.  Should these hops be
considered to been added to boil for some particular time (90', 60' 30',
10')?, or at some fraction (1.5 x, 0.5 x, etc) of their alpha acid
content.
	Now that I am doing all-grain brewing I am going to try FWH for an IPA
I'm brewing at the end of the week.  I'm not so concerned about this
case, since I know I will have lots of IBU, plus or minus a little.  But
for other beers/styles we need to hit a fairly tight target of IBU, so I
would like to know for future efforts.

THE C... DEBATES:	I abhor censorship - I once stuck my neck out (a
little) by appearing on local TV denouncing the fatwah against Salman
Rushdie (I hope all the fundamentalist Moslems who read HBD will forgive
me).  But I see the arrangement Louis Bonham made with Al K and Dave
Burley as an entirely different beast than censorship.  Their Clinitest
debate had narrowed down to a question about a single fact that is
easily amenable to experimental investigation.  (I had been working on
formulating the appropriate experiments in my head, but unfortunately
don't currently have available to me the necessary facilities to do the
experiments properly.)  As a scientist I see these types of debates
occur all of the time.  After a limited run of debate the response of
the community is generally along the lines of "enough already, shut up,
and do the damned experiment, then you can talk more."
	I will continue to enjoy Al and Dave's comments on other subjects, look
forward to seeing the results of Louis's experiment (and those of
others?), and wouldn't be surprised to see the debate continue, in a
slightly different form, after we are all a little wiser.
	Free discussion is generally great, but in some circumstances (and I
think this is one) only experimental data can real push our knowledge
forward.

Allen Senear
Big Water Brewing
Seattle


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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 98 05:07 PDT
From: caburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charles Burns)
Subject: Exterminator Recipe

Per a number of requests, here's the Exterminator IPA and Mild recipe
(parti-gyle):

18.5 lbs Halcyon Pale Ale
3 lb Hugh Baird Pale Crystal
1 lb Caramalt (45L)
 .75 lb Malted Wheat

 .5 oz Chinook (whole) 12.5%AA First Wort Hopped
1.0 oz Columbus (whole) 15%AA 60 min
1.0 oz Centennial (whole) 11%AA 15 min
 .5 oz Chinook (whole) 12.5%AA Knockout - 10 minute hot steep

6.5 gallons hard water at 168F = 154F mash for 60 min

Sparge with 11 gallons total liqor. Draw 7.5 gallons preboil for IPA - start
the kettle.
Mash 1 lb (additional) pale ale with 1 lb chocolate at 148F during IPA
sparge. Mix chocolate/pale into mashtun. Continue sparge into the second
kettle for the mild.

Mild hopping .75 oz whole EKG 60 min, .25 oz EKG 10 min (whole hops).

Next time take only 6.0 gallons for ipa and dilute to preboil volume.

Or just use less malt.

IPA fermented with 12 oz slurry of Wyeast 1056  at  63F for 2 weeks. Dry hopped
with 1 oz Cascade for 10 days (next time do full 2 weeks dry hop, or put
cascade into keg).



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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 08:35:41 -0400
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at scsn.net>
Subject: Stopper borers/Source for keg parts

The stopper borers made of tubing are exactly what we have used in the lab
for years.  For a home made one, from copper tube, it may be helpful to use
the stiffer grades of copper stick, if you can find it in your needed size.
 The soft tubing stuff we use for chillers etc may bend in use (YRMV).  
Also, the handle problem can be solves with a copper 'T' and some more
tubing to make a 'T' shaped implement with a good hand hold.  You can use
one of these (no handle) drills with an old fashioned manual drill which
can be mounted for heavy or frequent use.

I am having trouble finding parts for my keg collection.  Specifically the
tank connectors and parts (poppets, springs) for the tank side of the
system.  Also, does any one have a source for the pressure relief valves on
the keg tops?

Thanks.

Harold Dowda


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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 08:02:30 -0500
From: Steve Potter <spotter at meriter.com>
Subject: Put up or....

Dear Collective,

I find very interesting that the names of the vast majority of those who
feel the need to spring to the defense of either an uncensored HBD or
the decision of the committee do not appear on the donor's page. 
Perhaps it is time to consider starting to  help pay the freight for the
resource we all hold so dear.    

For those of you who are interested, checks should be made out to
Pat Babcock and sent to: 
HBD Server Fund
PO Box 1966
Rolla, MO
             65407

I know another contribution is on my list of things to do.

Steve Potter
Madison, WI    


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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 08:29:11 -0500
From: Jim Graham <jim at n5ial.gnt.com>
Subject: Re: oxidised starters/budget "Carbonators"/HSA and other musings

In HBD #2846, From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com> writes:

> Jim writes:
> > [my description of making cheap, homebrew carbonator-style caps]

> A question for you: have you stored beer in these for more than a week
> or two?  Does the rubber of the valve stem (which is probably butyl,
> certainly not food grade and rather icky-smelling) impart any aroma
> or flavour to the beer?  What if you store it on its side (so the beer
> actually touches the rubber)?  Can this extract any unpleasant or
> perhaps even dangerous compounds from the rubber?  Chemists?

I have stored beer for long terms in 2L PET bottles (trying to compare
various specialty grains and their contribution to, in this case, a pale
ale) back when I could only work with one batch at a time).  However, as
I recall, I stored the beer with the normal PET bottle cap.  Then again,
I did store it pressurized, and the only way I'd be able to do that is
to leave the tire-valve carbonator cap on, so.....

Anyways, as to the flavor after a month or so of storage, on its side,
pressurized with CO2 (set at 30 PSI), with the homebrew carb. cap.....
It tasted just like it did out of the keg.  No hint of any problems from
the rubber, no hint of oxidation (but this changes once you open the
bottle, obviously---drink it fast, or toss it!).

Oh, one other thing.  Every now and then, I like to make up some
carbonated water (I like to take that to work) in a 2L PET bottle.  One
time, I made some up and forgot about it for a couple of weeks.  It still
tasted fine.

I normally use these for short-term (less than 24 hours...usually less
than 12 hours) storage, btw, but have definitely gone at least < 1 week
with no problems.

Oh well, time to eat breakfast and get this holiday brew day rolling
(brewing ESB, and if my old, tired 1056 gets going, also brewing my
red ale...if not, perhaps a Bavarian lager...that yeast is very happy).

Later,
   --jim

- -- 
73 DE N5IAL (/4)                                      Ft. Walton Beach, FL
graham at tybj2.eglin.af.mil  ||  jim at n5ial.gnt.net             MiSTie #49997

          ===  Do not look into waveguide with remaining eye  ===



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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:59:09 -0400
From: Gary_H_Nazelrod at tst.tracor.com (Gary H Nazelrod)
Subject: Re:source for CO2 cylinders

In HBD 8547 Scott Murman <smurman at best.com> asks:
>I'm probably going to buy myself a keg setup for X-mas, and I was
>wondering if there was a good source for CO2 cylinders and gauges.
>I'm wondering about both $$ and safety issues (certification, etc.).  I
>can't imagine that there isn't a commercial outfit that specializes in
>gas that could provide a new setup with all the safety checks for a
>reasonable price.  Anyone been down this road?

I did not shop around for best price, but I easily found a reliable 
company. In the Washington DC area there is Roberts Oxygen (no 
affiliation).  I have seen their trucks on the streets for years.  They are 
a big supplier of gas products.  They are listed in the yellow pages under 
"Carbonic Gas" and also under "Oxygen".  When I went into the store and 
said I wanted a CO2 tank; the guy there immediately asked if I wanted it 
for homebrew.  They sold me a full 5 lb. tank and a dual gage.  I think the 
price was ~ $150. (~3 years ago)  When My tank is empty, I give them $18 
and my tank and they give me a full tank.  I never have to worry about 
getting my tank recertified.  The only use I see for the high pressure gage 
is to let you know when you are out of liquid and only have gas left 
(almost empty).  Sometime after I bought my tank and gage I looked at the 
price at a HB shop, the prices were similar.

Gary Nazelrod
Silver Spring MD


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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:17:34 -0400
From: brjamesop at juno.com (James D Thompson)
Subject: DC Water


I just resubscribed to HBD after a few year's absence.  Some things are
the same and make me feel at home (arf, controversies about commercialism
and the nature of HBD) and some things different (even more technical
than before, it seems - many of the entries I haven't the foggiest what
the issue is!).  Anyway, glad to see HBD is alive and well.

 My brewing buddy and I are living in Washington, DC for a few months,
but before heading back out to California we'd like to get a couple more
beers brewed.  We're experienced, but not especially sophisticated
brewers, using malt syrup extract base with some specialty grains, you
know...  A simple question for DC homebrewers:  water quality?  Does the
water here need treatment, or is it pretty hard already?  If Yes, needs
treatment, what works best for the unsophisticate?  You may reply in
private if you like.  Thanks!

Br. James Thompson, O.P.
Dominican House of Studies
Washington, DC
brjamesop at juno.com

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:23:27 -0500
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: No Subject

     From: "Penn, John" <PennJE1 at SPACEMSG.JHUAPL.edu>
     {snip}
     4)  Wet shirt cooling..   Cooling with a wet T-shirt can shave 5-10F
     off
     the fermentation temperature and you can add a fan blowing on the
     shirt
     to increase cooling.  Do you have a wet bulb/dry bulb thermometer to
     determine what the temperature difference is in your area?  The
     cooling
     effect depends on humidity.  If you live in a low humidity area this
     may
     not work for you.  You gave the impression that it did not work at all
     but what were your circumstances and how much of an effect were you
     expecting vs. what you got?
     {snip}

     OOPS!  I'm sure you meant that this will not work well in high
     humidity.  The effect is heat removal by evaporation.  The driving
     force is humidity or moisture concentration in the air.  Less moisture
     in the ambient air means more water can evaporate from the T-shirt,
     towel, or whatever.  At 100% relative humidity or the dew point
     temperature, no moisture will evaporate and no cooling will occur. So
     don't try this in a shower.  ;)   The fan helps by dispersing the air
     around the fermenter where local moisture concentration might
     otherwise build up.

     Cheers!

     Lou - Austin, TX     Look at Ricky geaux!!!



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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:28:50 -0400
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com (PAUL W HAAF JR)
Subject: What beverage goes with Spam?

Has anyone else recently been getting hit with more spam than usual?  I'm
not on the web, and most of my mail is from HBD, MLD, and CLD, plus a few
family and friends.
Most of this unpalatable meat is from YAHOO origins.  Any suggestions?
Paul Haaf      haafbrau1atjunodotcom

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:15:37 -0400
From: haafbrau1 at juno.com (PAUL W HAAF JR)
Subject: PET storage

Well, I think I set a record for PET beer storage.  I have two bottles
left of a summer honey wheat ale I brewed in June.  The first is a 2L
bottle.  I cracked it last week, and the beer tasted the same as in July.
 I used glass and PET.  Currently, the half filled bottle has a
Carbonator on it.  I'll taste test for scientific purposes real soon.  I
also made a spiced ale back in Jan or Feb that I opened recently.  It was
just as over spiced as the first bottle.  I also did not notice any other
flavor degradations in either beer. Hope this info helps.  On another
note, early this summer I brewed a honey wheat ale that I flavored with
orange extract.  At first, the orange was overpowering.  This past
weekend, one of the few remaining bottles was opened and consumed at a
party.  This  was a 22 oz glass bottle.  Very little drinking was done at
this party (my 2 yr old's b-day), and the pizza had not yet arrived, so
taste buds were not being sacrificed in large numbers.  The beer was
tasted by four people and was well received, but the orange was almost
impercectable.  The moral of this story is that time can heal many but
not all heavy handed batches.  Just my two cents plain with a beer
chaser.

Hoppy Trails 
Paul Haaf      haafbrau1atjunodotcom


___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:32:53 -0400
From: "Timothy Green" <TimGreen at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: Pewter

Currently, the only new pewter that is allowed to be sold in the US is what
is called lead-free pewter. What the actual composition of the alloy is I
don't know  It looks somewhat like traditional pewter except that the metal
is a slightly lighter color.

Tim Green

Mead is great...
Beer is good...
(But beer is much faster)



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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:52:55 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: RIMS turbulence & trapped air

From: AKGOURMET at aol.com

>Does
>the entire loop need to be completely purged of air?  Will it purge by
itself?

It is a good idea to purge all air from the loop.   When I start to brew, I
run heated liquor into the mash tun, then turn on the pump and purge all air
out of the loop.   The loop remains free of air if there is no leak anywhere
in the system.  The grains are stirred in at this time, and when I begin the
circulation, the loop is already purged of air.

>If there is a small amount of air and turbulence around the T-fittings or
the
>ball valves, what effect will that have on the wort?  Seems like necking
down
>would be ok, but what about going from 3/8" into 1/2" pipe?  I guess it
would
>depend on flow rate and the amount of backpressure.  What has been the
>experience of other RIMS users?

With just liquor, the initial pumping and circulation will move so rapidly
that any air will be flushed out.  If all the air is gone, it doesn't seem
to be a problem with necking down, but do be careful to allow enough passage
for any stray grains that may go whizzing by.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:00:46 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Subject: 240V GFI

From: "Doug Otto" <dotto at calweb.com>

>What concerns me is the lack of a ground leg on your standard 240V
>outlet here in the US.  Because of the liquids involved and the amount of
>metal hardware, I'd like to run GFI on the circuit but have never seen such
>an animal for 240V.  I know that for all intents the neutral leg is the
same
>as ground, but is that good enough and are there GFI breakers available for
>240V?

I always thought the "neutral" was the ground on a 240V outlet.  If you
eliminate the "neutral", the 240V still works.  We need an electrician to
clarify this.

I am using plastic containers for my HLT and my kettle, so I haven't worried
about grounding, however, when I switch to metal kegs, I will be very
concerned about grounding.  The only thing standing between you and the 240V
is the insulation inside the heating element, and it is under stress of the
very hot heating wire at the core.  I would be certain to ground the keg as
well as the metal cart.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:16:18 -0400
From: Gary_H_Nazelrod at tst.tracor.com (Gary H Nazelrod)
Subject: Re:Re>New Brewer Questions

In HBD 2846 "Penn, John" <PennJE1 at SPACEMSG.JHUAPL.edu> does a good job of 
answering a Matt's new brewer questions.  However I noticed 1 error.  Does 
that mean we only got $0.0171 instead of the intended $0.02? :-)

>4)  Wet shirt cooling..   Cooling with a wet T-shirt can shave 5-10F off
>the fermentation temperature and you can add a fan blowing on the shirt
>to increase cooling.  Do you have a wet bulb/dry bulb thermometer to
>determine what the temperature difference is in your area?  The cooling
>effect depends on humidity.  If you live in a low humidity area this may
>not work for you.  You gave the impression that it did not work at all
>but what were your circumstances and how much of an effect were you
>expecting vs. what you got?

This method works better in low humidity than it does in high humidity.  In 
low humidity there is greater evaporation.  The evaporation is what is 
removing the heat.  The fan helps because it removes humid air near the wet 
T-shirt and replaces it with less humid air from the surrounding area.  
This new lower humidity air near the T-shirt can now increase the 
evaporation rate back to what it was before the evaporation increased the 
local humidity.

Gary Nazelrod
Silver Spring MD

PS John's answer was mostly right, so I guess we got more like $0.0189


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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:42:11 -0400
From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at longisland.com>
Subject: Review of "Clone Brews" Book

Someone requested a review of " Clone Brews" by Tess & Mark Szamatulski-
published by Storey Books Vermont - 1998 (ISBN 1-58017-077-3). $14.95 in
paperback

I purchased this book last week and have read most of the material in it. I
have NOT used any of the recipes as of yet but plan to try some shortly.
Here are my first impressions:

"Clone Brews" was written by Tess & Mark Szamatulski, the owners of the
"Maltose Express" homebrew supply shop in Monroe Connecticut. It is
primarily a source for recipes which claim to replicate commercial beers.
The book contains 150 recipes laid out in a very eye-pleasing format. One
unique feature of the book is that each recipe has   three different
versions; a) Extract + special grains recipe, b) "Mini-Mash recipe and c)
"All-Grain" recipe, all on the same page. The recipes are given in full for
the extract version with alterations to the extract recipe for the other
two mash methods  given in an "Alternate Methods" sidebar. One very rare
and nice touch, for each beer there is a suggested serving temperature and
style of serving glass listed as part of the recipe.

These recipes represent beer from all over the world. They include  beers
from Africa (9), Asia (10),  Australia and New Zealand (6), the Caribbean
(4), Central America (4), Europe (86), the Middle East (4), North America &
Mexico (25) and South America (2). All in all, 50 different countries or
islands are represented and the book is worth its price just for the
information given on so many beers. The recipes are presented in order of
their region and country of origin. For those interested in a particular
style  there is a very strange "Beer Style" cross-reference in the back. As
an example of what I mean by strange, Red Hook ESB and Harpoon IPA and are
listed  under the "Style" headed "American Ale" but Anchor Steam is dubbed
"Esoteric". Thus the "Style" in the author's list has more to do with the
country of origin than the actual style. This in spite of the fact that the
AHA style guidelines are given as an appendix in the book.

The book starts with some very short sections of suggestions concerning the
process of making the beers and methods for calculations of color,
bitterness, grain bills , yeasts and hop selection etc. The section on
water treatment is poor. The authors state that they include water
treatment notes in the recipes "where needed", however the only treatment I
found in glancing through the recipes is to use Burton salts in some
English Ales. The authors  comments  in the second paragraph in this
section  encourage the brewer to use their water "as is" if it tastes good.
Following this logic,a novice brewer with hard water might attempt to brew
a Pilsner Urquell with no water treatment. This needs some form of
correction in later editions. Following these introductory sections, the
assumptions used in formulating the recipes are nicely grouped on a single
page just before the recipes start.

The recipes themselves are the core of this book. Each recipe is for 5
gallons and takes up exactly one page. A recipe starts with a header box
giving taste impressions of the target beer. This is followed by the target
 original and final gravities, the bitterness in IBU's, the color (as a SRM
number) and the percent alcohol by volume for the beer for the homebrewed
version (not the commercial version). The recipes themselves follow, laid
out in two colors, one for the process steps and one for the ingredients.
Rather than grouping the ingredients all in one place, the authors chose to
intersperse the procedural steps and the  ingredients. Depending on your
own personal preference you may like or dislike the fact that the
ingredients appear in order of usage rather than being grouped separately
as grain, hops etc. 

As for ingredients, each recipe suggests a very particular brand of extract
or type of grain to be used. A 70% mash efficiency is assumed in the
all-grain grain bill. Unfortunately there are no water profiles or
suggested treatment schedules  for most of the beers given in this book.
The hop schedule is presented for pellet hops in HBU's with the assumed
alpha acid percentage  given for the quoted weights. Some suggested hops,
such as Northdown may be difficult to find. A hop substitution table is
included as an appendix for those instances.  There are two suggested
yeasts for each beer with a first and second choice given. Only Wyeast
yeasts are recommended.There is no yeast equivalence chart or
recommendations for  yeasts from other suppliers. 

I found the actual instructions for brewing these beers clearly written and
generally well presented. These recipes do not claim to be duplicates of
those of the parent brewery but are a set of ingredients and procedures
meant to match the taste and color of the targeted beer. As stated
previously, the instructions are written out for the extract version with
suggested alterations for partial-mash and all-grain in a side-bar box.
Each suggested yeast is given a suggested fermentation temperature range. I
was surprised that the lager recipes often do not have any lagering
temperature schedule or instructions [One unusual note: In many of the
recipes using Wyeast 2308 Munich lager yeast, the authors recommend
fermenting at a low temperature in the beginning of fermentation and then
raising the temperature ( sometimes above Wyeast's suggested range) for the
remainder of fermentation.]. Bottling is the only packaging option
discussed in the book. Each beer is given priming instructions for bottling
 . The priming ingredients are spelled out as to both brand and color when
dry extract powder is called for. No suggestions are given concerning
bottle conditioning temperatures or duration.
 
 I  have some fairly strong reservations about the all-grain recipes. Only
two temperature programs are used in the entire book, either a 150 deg F
(65.5 deg C) single infusion (the dominant program) or a two step infusion
with the first step using a 122 deg F (50 deg C) protein rest for 30
minutes, followed by a 150 deg F rest.  Most of the recipes which call for
the protein rest are for light lagers with rice and/or corn, there are
other recipes with no such adjuncts that still use this rest which is
currently under a lot of discussion. 

Since the authors are dealing with 150 different beers here, I get a
distinct feeling that these all-grain recipes might have been formulated as
an after-thought. To my thinking, the uniformity of the final
saccharification rest temperature at 150 deg F for 150 different beers is
somewhat unexpected. The boiling hops in the all-grain recipes uniformly
get a 90 minute boil which is also somewhat "non-standard" practice.


With the exception of the concerns raised, on an overall basis I think that
this book would be a very useful addition to a brewers library of recipes.
I feel it would be most useful to the extract brewer interested in
reproducing a commercial beer. It would be somewhat useful to an
experienced all-grain brewer (who would know to alter the mashing schedules
given and to do proper water treatment). The book is inexpensive and gives
a brewer a potential introduction into many  interesting and varied beers
from around the world. I would buy it again if my present copy got lost.

Jim Bentson 
Centerport NY



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Date: 12 Oct 1998 13:56:05 -0400
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Censorhip/Pumpkin Beer


HBD-
And especially Scott Murman-
"-SM-

P.S. I have a list of topics and posters that I feel are a not
sufficiently contributing to the S/N ratio.  Who do I send it to for
consideration? "

I'm sorry, and please take me off your list!

About Censorship- "Lighten up, Francis!"

About Pumpkin beer-
I made my third annual Punkinhead Ale Saturday:

I took a 2 gallon pumpkin, inverted it, and cut out the bottom (in my
experience, the bottom is not as structurally sound as the top).  I cleaned
out the guts and seeds, installed a bottom (top) drain and a metal screen.  I
filled it up with near boiling water, put the bottom back on (I had the
pumpkin sitting upside down in a 5 gallon bucket for stability) and let it
steep for about an hour.  I did this to 1)heat up the pumpkin mash tun, and
2)cook the starches in the wall of the pumpkin.  In the mean time, I cleaned
two pie pumpkins and cut them into 1" thick rings, and baked them at 350 F for
one hour.
I drained the pumpkin water into a boil pot, heated the water back up to mash
temp, and put it back into the pumpkin.  To this I added the cooked pumpkin
(15 oz -along with the rind on the rings- what the hell?) and the grain: 6#
pale ale malt, 1# dark crystal.  I mashed at 140 for 30 minutes, decocted to
150 for 45 minutes.  The sparge started to get a little sticky towards the
end, but I got 6 gallons that I boiled down to 5 gallons at 1.045.  I bittered
with ~1oz of green hops off the vine- ~.25oz NB, .75oz Cascade.  At 15 minutes
I added 4 tsp cinnamon, 2 tsp clove, 2 tsp ginger, 2 tsp nutmeg, and threw 1
Tbs vanilla extract in the fermenter.

I upped the spices from the previous batch, and added about twice the amount
of crystal, and extra pumpkin.  So far, the pumpkin smell coming out of the
fermenter is far more intense than previous batches.  I added more crystal for
more sweetness, which should bring out the pumpkin flavor.

I now offer this as the precursor to the annual pumpkin beer threads to the
HBD as a replacement bandwidth filler for the cavernous, gaping "dead air"
left from the unscrupulous McCarthyistic censorship of the "Clinitest Death
Match".  Don't make me get my banned assault rifle that they tell me I can't
hunt deer with, and come down there!*

Topics:
Will more pumpkin give more "pumpkin flavor?"
Will more residual sweetness enhance the pumpkin flavor?
Am I the only one who makes beer INSIDE pumpkins?
Might I have extracted undesirables by including the pumpkin rind?
Should I have used "Second Use FWH's" (TM)?

Eric (Tryin' to sneak one by SM) Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood, MI

*This was a joke.  I do not own a banned assault rifle- but only 'cause I
can't afford one.


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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 13:57:05 -0400
From: "Bayer, Mark A (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
Subject: lactic vs phosphoric/propane cookers

collective homebrew conscience:

al k wrote:

>>Lactic acid is preferable to phosphoric <snip> 

and scott responded:

> This is the first time I've heard this. In fact, I'm sure I've read to the
contrary, although I can't recall >where at the moment.<snip>

(pause for dredging of pickled neurons.....)

i believe i read in brewing techniques, possibly in a 'troubleshooter'
column, where dave miller stated he had moved away from lactic and started
using phosphoric because lactic acid is "unstable" at high temperatures.
does anybody have any ideas on what dave is talking about, and what the
effect is during mashing or wort boiling?

now for some cooker questions (i searched the archives briefly for this, but
no dice): i've got a 170kbtu king kooker and just used it saturday for the
first time, with a 15 gallon ss pot.  what is the best setting for the
adjustable air intake upstream of the burner ring?  i realize this controls
the mixture of propane-to-air, but what is the most efficient way to set it
so i don't waste propane?  my natural inclination is to open it all the way
up and run as lean as i can.   i noticed saturday that i could set it just
about anywhere from fully open to nearly closed, for a given gas flow
setting, and my boil vigor didn't vary much (maybe i didn't conduct the
experiment patiently enough).  also, how many 5 gallon batches should i
expect to get from one of the common size refillable tanks of propane?  i
only use it for boiling, not mashing or heating sparge water.

thanks for all the advice on drilling rubber stoppers.  if i can just figure
out a way to incorporate clinitest into the procedure....

brew hard,

mark bayer








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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:00:36 -0700
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: Drilling stoppers

From: bob_poirier at adc.com
Subject: Re:  Drilled Stoppers

>     The only problem I had was when I wasn't paying attention and bored a 
     crooked hole that came out on the side of the stopper, near the bottom 
     - you've got to keep in mind that the stopper is going to get deformed 
     (squished) while you're boring through it!  Actually, Pete Calinski 
     makes a good point about possibly "freezing" the stopper before you 
     try to drill/bore through it.

if your drilling holes, why not drill a hole large enough to hold your
stopper, and shove hte stopper in it, and then shove the sharpend tubing
through it.  just a thought.  this would hold the stopper steady, and reduce
the risk of you smashing your fingers, cutting your fingers, or getting off
center.

*********************************************
Brander Roullett aka Badger
(2300 miles West of Jeff, Seattle, WA)
Brewing Page: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html
Badgers Brewing Bookstore: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/brewbook.html

In the SCA: 
Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven, Innkeeper of the Cat and Cup Inn



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Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:12:08 -0700
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: KEGS

Date: 	Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:26:20 -0400 
From: Alan Monaghan <AlanM at gardnerweb.com>
Subject: Kegs

I was looking for a site/resource for the kegs and tools needed to
maintain the kegs that the big boys use (the one with the large ball in
the center). I would like to be able to put our beer into these for
others who don't have the soda pop kegging system most home brewers seem
to use.


Try RCB, they usually have them used.  (right now they have them for 2 1/2
gallon ones at 25$, and 15.5 gallon ones at 62.50$.)  (no association) 

Also Rapids sells them (i think?) new.   Good luck!

Websites..

RCB:  http://www.rcbequip.com	
Rapids: http://www.4rapids1.com

*********************************************
Brander Roullett aka Badger
(2300 miles West of Jeff, Seattle, WA)
Brewing Page: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html
Badgers Brewing Bookstore: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/brewbook.html

In the SCA: 
Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven, Innkeeper of the Cat and Cup Inn



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---