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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Homebrew Digest #286 (October 25, 1989)  Champagne Yeast? (Wayne Allen)
  Coffee Stout, Specific Gravity (Tom Hotchkiss)
  Blowoff Turns to Blowout (willa)
  Single vs. double fermentation (bellcore.bellcore.com!hera!afd)
  Much appreciated (Mike Kahn)
  Tragedy and Bitter/pale Ale (Patrick Stirling [Sun Consulting Services Mtn View])
  What's a pale al (florianb)
  Re: Glue for label (mmcintos)
  Oxidation, Gelatin, et al. (Dave Sheehy)
  The ``Golden Beer'' State: Part 3: Central California (David L. Kensiski )
  shook beer (JEEPSRUS)
  test of route (Robert Hilchey)
  its the water (Richard Hager)
  test of our link (Robert Hilchey)
  Syrups versus Dry Extracts (Mike Fertsch)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 10:04:37 CDT
From: wa%cadillac.cad.mcc.com at mcc.com (Wayne Allen)
Subject: Homebrew Digest #286 (October 25, 1989)  Champagne Yeast?


watson at ames.arc.nasa.gov (John Watson) writes:

>2) For yesterdays barley wine I used champagne yeast.
>   How will this effect the final flavor of the beer?

I don't know about using champagne yeast exclusively, but I have made
barley wine (similar to John's recipe) using ale yeast in the primary
fermentation, and then pitching champagne yeast after some clearing.
This DEFINITELY works!
 _
 W	| Wayne Allen, wa at mcc.com
	| I really really really really really really really like girls!!!!
	| Oh yeah I really really really really really really really
	| like girls!!!  I like'm tall!! I like'm small!! I like'm
	| AAAAAAALLLLLLLL!!!!!!  - Hank Williams, Jr.


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 9:07:08 MDT
From: Tom Hotchkiss <trh at hpestrh>
Subject: Coffee Stout, Specific Gravity


A. Coffee Stout

To the person who made the stout with the coffee in it, I intend to fire
up a batch of "Colorado Crankcase Stout" this weekend and I was wondering
two things:

    1) How much coffee did you use and am I correct that you added it to
       the ferment, not the boil?  (I can't seem to find the digest
       where this was explained.)

    2) Have you tasted the stout yet and would you alter the amount of
       coffee that you used?

B. Miscellaneous responses to John S. Watson:

    1) Your carboy tragedy-  Use a two stage ferment.  Put the wort in
       a sanitized 7 gallon plastic bucket for the first day or two (until
       the head falls).  Then siphon it into the carboy.  This prevents
       your disaster and gets the beer off the trub and dead yeast.
       If you're real worried about the hop oils and stuff not blowing
       off, you can use a sanitized strainer to skim the head off. 

    2) Low specific gravity.  I think the expected SG values are at 60
       degrees, but that shouldn't make much difference.  The only other
       thing I can think of is that you're not getting a good sample,
       i.e. if you add water to the wort to bring the volume up to 5
       gallons, are you sure that it is mixed thouroughly before you
       take your sample?  Perhaps the sample is taken from a thinner part
       of the wort.  I can't possibly imagine that 12 lbs extract and
       2 lbs honey in 5 gallons only yielded 1.056!

Tom Hotchkiss
trh at hpfcla


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 08:27:52 PDT
From: willa at hpvclwa
Subject: Blowoff Turns to Blowout

John:

What diameter discharge tube do you use?  I've seen lots of folks use a small
(~0.25 inch) tube plugged into a stopper with a hole in it.  I use a large
plastic tube.  Its outside tube diameter matches the inside diameter of the 
carboy opening.  So, my blowout tube has an inside diameter of about 1 inch.
I doubt even a barley wine could clog up such a large tube.

. . .Will

...!hplabs!hpvcfs1!willa or
willa at hpvcfs1.hp.com

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Date: 25 Oct 1989   8:35 EDT
From: rutgers!bellcore.bellcore.com!hera!afd at hplabs.HP.COM
Subject: Single vs. double fermentation

I see a note now and then on secondary fermenters.  I've brewed three 
batches now using a single fermentation process and quite honestly, 
they've all turned out alright. 

What advantages are gained by secondary fermentation?

-A Dietz
Bellcore, Morristown
bellcore!hera!afd

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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 08:48:36 PDT
From: Mike Kahn <mike at stat.washington.edu>
Subject: Much appreciated

Thanks to Al and Martin for their simple answers to three of my simple q         
questions. I'm still a bit confused as to the difference between pale
and bitter, but not as confused as before. The remaining confusion
comes when I think that at my favorite pub, the pales are kegged and seem
to have a "hoppier" taste than any of the bitters, which could, of
course, simply be the way a couple of the local microbrewers make their
ales. I will try to look at descriptions from the  Homebrew Competitions.
Thanks again.

I still haven't seen any comments about the use of spices when making
a seasonal ale. Any help?

MK

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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 09:03:39 PDT
From: pms at Sun.COM (Patrick Stirling [Sun Consulting Services Mtn View])
Subject: Tragedy and Bitter/pale Ale

I always use a plastic bin for ther primary fermentation. I don't want to
run the risk of the blowoff tube clogging. I just use a loose fitting lid
and stand the bin in a towel. The worst I've had is foam pouring out over
the sides! I think that's a lot safer than using a carboy. Then after a 
couple of day when the initial activity dies down I rack into a carboy,
leaving a couple of inches of gunk behind. By bottling (another couple
of weeks) there usually an inch of so of sediment in the carboy. Rack
back to the bin, prime and bottle, and wait (impatiently!). This way
I get very little sediment in the bottle, with careful decanting I leave
only about a teaspoonful of beer behind.

About this Bitter - Pale Ale controversy. I disagree that they're the
same! Using that argument, all beers are the same, it's just the
ingredients that are different! You can get both Bitter and Pale Ales
in kegs, bottles and cans in Britain (speaking as a pompous native).
Pale Ale is pale, Bitter is dark(er). Pale Ale is also higher in
alcohol than bitter, and has more hops. Think of the difference between
Sierra Nevada Pale Ale (a favourite of mine!) or Anchor Liberty Ale,
and Fuller's London Pride or John Courage.  Of course, neither of these
export versions are remotely like what you can get on tap in Britain!
If you ever visit Britain, I'd strongly recommend a visit to a
reputable tavern and a pint (or even several) of their finest -
Wadworth's 6X is my personal favourite, although John Courage
Director's, Fuller's London Pride (the real thing), and many others are
almost equally excellent! Hand drawn from a wooden (unpressurized) keg
with a vacuum pump of course!

Well I've probably bored you enough by now
patrick

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Date: 25 Oct 89 08:43:33 PDT (Wed)
From: florianb at tekred.cna.tek.com
Subject: What's a pale al

This regards the recent discussion of pale ales vs. bitters.

Somewhere in the dark recesses of my memory, I recall reading (or hearing
or dreaming) that pale ale originated in a region of Ireland called "Pale,"
and didn't necessarily refer to ales which were lighter in body or flavor
or color.  Now, I can't recall where I came up with this tidbit.

Has anyone else any information on this?  Did I dream it up after drinking
too much pale ale?  Maybe my fourth grade teacher said it, right after she
told me that the reason it's colder in winter is because the earth is 
farther away from the sun.  Which is true if you live in the southern 
hemisphere...

[Florian Bell, thinking about the ingredients for Holiday Ale as I 
try to work]


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Date: 25 Oct 89  9:06 -0700
From: mmcintos at sirius.UVic.ca
Subject: Re: Glue for label

In HOMEBREW Digest #286, 10/25/89:
>From: felix at Warbucks.AI.SRI.COM (Francois Felix INGRAND)
>
>What kind of glue do you use to put label on your bottles?

        We use those cylindrical glue sticks.  They make the labels
        stay on reliably and also seem to be water soluble, making
        cleaning the bottles easier.  They are easy to use, too.

Mark J. McIntosh <mmcintos at sirius.uvic.ca>
_______________________________________________________________________________
University of Victoria, Faculty of Engineering
Box 1700, Victoria, BC, CANADA    \ "...the mystery of life isn't a problem to
V8W 2Y2            (604) 721-7211  \    solve but a reality to experience." 
UUCP: ...!{uw-beaver,ubc-vision}!uvicctr!sirius!mmcintos  \ from Dune

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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 10:56:15 PDT
From: Dave Sheehy <dbs at hprnd>
Subject: Oxidation, Gelatin, et al.
Full-Name: Dave Sheehy



Oxidation
=========

>>From: Martin A. Lodahl <pbmoss!mal at hplabs.HP.COM>
>>Subject: Trub Management
>>
>>		eight-year-old asked, "why don't you just use
>>		your lauter tun?"  My jaw dropped.  Since the
>>		wort is already cool, oxidation is not a problem.
>
>The reason that oxidation is not a problem is not because the
>wort is cool, rather because before yeast goes into its fermentation
>stage of life, it goes through a respiration stage during which it
>NEEDS oxygen.  Boiling drives off oxygen (and all other dissolved 
>gasses, for that matter) so that you need to aerate your wort before
>pitching your yeast.  After fermentation begins, you then need to
>be careful to not introduce oxygen.
>
>Al.

Whoa! Wait a minute here. According to Miller oxidation is a problem with
hot wort. Yes, you want to oxygenate the wort before it's pitched but only
after it's been cooled so that oxidation is not a problem. In fact, that's
one of the reason's for using a wort chiller (as well as getting a good cold
break). If the wort is allowed to cool slowly then it will subject to more
oxidation according to Miller. 

I suspect that's an unstated reason for doing partial boils when extract
brewing. Adding cool water to the boiling wort to bring it up to volume
also lowers the temperature of the wort enough to limit oxidation. I
unwittingly experimented with this when I did a full boil of an extract
recipe that I've made many times before. I don't have a wort chiller but I
did place the fermenter in a bath of cool water. Still, it took several hours
to cool down. The resulting beer was ok but the flavor just wasn't as good
as it has been in the past. According to Miller, it should have turned out 
better.  The only difference between the two batches is that the partial boil 
was added to cool water in the fermenter. Has anybody else had this kind of
experience? If you've had any experiences with oxidation how much did they
affect the flavor of the beer? My experience is that it's a second order
effect. The flavor is definitely affected but not in a major way (i.e. the
beer was undrinkable).

While we're on the subject of oxidation, I'd like to discuss Miller's 
contention that the typical 1 - 2" headspace in a bottle of beer has enough
oxygen present to cause significant oxidation. Miller recommends using a 1/8"
headspace to prevent this. I'm not sure I believe him or not. I remember
some discussion a few months ago about headspace. Has anybody experimented
with a smaller headspace and if so did you notice any differences one way
or the other? 


Gelatin and extended fermentation
=================================

>I have a question posed by a fellow homebrewer who doesn't have
>access.  He had a batch that brewed in the cellar for some time (I
>can't remember how long) when he thought fermentation had slowed enough
>he brought it upstairs and put some jelatin (sp?, to clear it up) in
>it.  After he did that it continued bubling for the next few weeks and
>he's wondering if the yeast could be acting on the jelatin or if it
>might be dangerous to drink the beer now.  Any info?

You know, I've had this happen to me just about every single time I've 
brewed. I've waited until there has been no activity in the primary whatsoever
but sure enough, when I rack to the secondary and add gelatin I start getting
fresh activity a few days later. I don't think the gelatin has anything to
do with this rather the mere act of agitating the wort rekindles the yeast
into activity. I've gotten into the habit of turning my fermentor around in
a circle to stir up the settled yeast and this seems to produce fresh activity
but I still get additional activity in the secondary. The beer has always 
turned out so I don't worry about it anymore, I just deal with it.


Wort Foaming During Bottling
============================

The last batch of beer I bottled foamed (or fizzed if you will) while I was
bottling it. It did this so much that I had trouble maintaining the sipon
in my transfer tubing. If I stopped for any amount of time a big bubble 
would form in the tubing and I'd have to purge it. Anybody have any theories
why this happened. I swear it had fermented out, it fermented normally in the
primary for about a week and sat in the secondary for another week, week and
a half. In the secondary, it showed little activity. Boy, but when I bottled
it it foamed like mad. After several weeks of bottle conditioning it tastes 
fine. It forms a large head but it's very coarse and doesn't last long. Any
clues as to what's happening.

Wort Chilling
=============

I just tried chilling a batch by immersing a 1 gallon milk jug filled with 
water and frozen solid into the boiler. Boy, what a difference. It really
enhanced the effect of the finishing hops. By cooling down the wort immediately
the aroma and flavor of the finishing hops were retained more than before. An
immersion chiller is going on my wish list.

Dave Sheehy
dbs at hprnd.hp.com


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 14:02:19 PDT
From: david%cygnus. at Sun.COM (David L. Kensiski )
Subject: The ``Golden Beer'' State: Part 3: Central California

			The ``Golden Beer'' State
		 A Guide To California's Beer Hot Spots

Central California
    Atascadero
	S	Stagecoach Liquors
		5145 El Camino Real
    Boulder Creek
	P	White Cockade
		18025 Highway 9
    Cayucos
	P,R	The Way Station
		78 North Ocean
    Ceres
	H	Barley & Wine Home Fermentation Supply
		1907 Central Avenue
    Fresno
	B	Butterfield
		777 East Olive, 93728
		(209) 264-5521
	P	Good Bodys
		2915 North Maroa Avenue
    Hollister
	B	San Andreas
		737 San Benito, 95023
		(408) 637-7074
    Los Gatos
	S	Pacific Wine & Spirits
		410 North Santa Cruz
    Los Osos
	H	U-BRU
		1940 10th Street, Suite A
    Mammoth Lakes
	B	Mammoth Lakes
		170 Mountain Blvd, 93546
		(619) 934-8134
    Modesto
	M	Stanislaus
		(209) 523-2262
		brewpub opening late '89
    Monterey
	B	Monterey
		638 Wave Street, 93940
		(408) 375-3634
    Morgan Hill
	H	Let's Brew
		16965 Monterey Road
    Paso Robles
	M	Paso Robles
		(805) 239-4221
    Salinas
	P	Time Out
		328 South Main Street
    San Luis Obispo
	B	SLO Brewing
		1119 Garden Street, 93401
		(805) 544-3292
	M	Central Coast Brewing Company
		(805) 541-59883
	M	Obispo Brewing Company
		(805) 543-0487
		opening late '89
	P,R	Spikes
		570 Hiquera Street
	P,R	Rose & Crown
		1000 Hiquera
	S,R	Sandy's Liquor
		Hiquera/Nipomo Street
	S,H	Win St. Wines
		1027 March Street
    Santa Cruz
	B	Santa Cruz
		516 Front Street, 95060
		(408) 429-8838
	B	Seabright
		519 Seabright, 95062
		(408) 462-2739

Legend
	M	Microbrewery or Brewery
	B	Brewpub or Brewstaurant
	C	Contract Brewery
	P	Pub
	R	Restaurant or Deli
	S	Retail Sotre
	H	Homebrew Shop

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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 09:51 PDT
From: JEEPSRUS <ROBERTN%FM1 at sc.intel.com>
Subject: shook beer




With the recent earthquake in San Fransisco and Santa Cruz, I was
wondering if anyone knows what affect this would have on homebrew?

I live in Sacramento, and we got shook just a little bit, but the bay
area got hit pretty hard!

What happens to the fermentation when it is violently shaken? Does it
just take longer for it to settle, or will kicking up the various deposits
from the bottom of the fermenter affect the beer?

When the bottles are shaken, are there any affects? Pressure buildup may
burst the bottles, but does anything else happen? 


Thanx in advance, and happy brewing :-)

RobertN.
robertn%fm1 at sc.intel.com


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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 16:35:47 -0700
From: hilchy at sdsu.edu (Robert Hilchey)
Subject: test of route

this is a test

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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 17:10:27 -0700
From: rhager at sdsu.edu (Richard Hager)
Subject: its the water


    I believe the article in the San Diego edition of the L.A. Times quoting
the brewmaster at the Old Columbia has been misinterpreted by Dave Smith.
The brewmaster said that water with mineral content makes the best beer (I 
don't recall the exact wording).  I believe he was refering to hard vs soft.  
He was also quoted as saying that they must process the water.  Again I don't 
recall whether he actually used the word filter or not so I'm simply 
indicating that he said process.  The article seemed to be very superficial 
no doubt written by a reporter with marginal knowledge on beer.  It strikes me 
that the content of the brewmaster's quote might have been "processed" by the 
reporter.

    I have never been very successful brewing with San Diego water.  It is very
difficult controlling the ph during the mash.  The single biggest improvement
in my beer came when I started hauling water to town from my house in the 
mountains a couple of years ago.  Problems are compounded because the quality
and mineral content of the San Diego water are not even constant through the
year.  It can get marginally good when the amount coming from the Colorado
river is sufficiently low.  Unlike Los Angeles which gets much of its water
from the Owens valley east of the Sierra we rely on everybody else's rejects.
There are places where it is worse e.g. Santa Barbara.

    As long as I'm writing this I guess I'll get my two cents in about the
Old Columbia.  It is the only brewpub here in San Diego and has been open
since last February.  It has a resonable atmosphere but unfortunately caters
to a yuppie clientele.  There are numerous pre-pro photo blowups on the wall
of old San Diego scenes including the crew at the old San Diego Brewery which
went under when prohibition came and a marvelous shot of the old City Brewery
building from the 1880's which was located at 5th and B.  Unfortunately, the
beer quality has been compromised.  There are too many waitresses and too
little malt and hops.  The beer was excellant for a few weeks shortly after
opening but has never been better than C+/B- after that.  It seems to me that
much of Southern California's craft beer tends to a sort of bland middle of
the road and much of it is priced too high.  Hopefully when San Diego's 
second brewpub is opened (within a few months) we can boast of a truly first
rate brewpub.  It is the Old Mission which is to be housed in the same
building as the original Old Mission Brewery which was in existense from
1912-1916.  The building is being restored to its original form.  This
required approval from the San Diego voters last November as the original
cupola had been removed and a coastal height limitation prevented it from
being added back.

Richard Hager
Dept of Mathematical Sciences
San Diego State University
 

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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 16:24:12 -0700
From: hilchy at sdsu.edu (Robert Hilchey)
Subject: test of our link

Just a test

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Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 11:43 EDT
From: Mike Fertsch <gatech!adc1.mec.ray.com!FERTSCH>
Subject: Syrups versus Dry Extracts

Mike Kahn <mike at stat.washington.edu> has Some (hopefully) simple questions:

> What is malt extract? For example, is light, unhopped malt extract simply
> concentrated light, dry malt? If not, what is different? If so, is there
> some approximate conversion? (Say, 3.3# of extract is approx. ???# of dry
> malt.) 

Dry malt extract is malt syrup without the water.  Pound for pound dry malt
extract has more 'stuff' than the syrup.  Extract numbers I've read are 36
specific gravity points per pound per gallon for syrups, and 42 points for
dry extracts.  If a recipe calls for 1 pound of syrup, you can substitute
0.85 pounds (0.85 = 36/42).  Dry extract is easier to measure and handle,
so dry is my perference for situations which call for non-integer cans of
syrup. 

Mike Fertsch

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #287, 10/26/89
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