---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Time to Brew ("John & Joy Vaughn")
  Re: Mash in space? (Scott Murman)
  Re: new Wyeast ready-to-pitch packs (Dan Cole)
  cherries in my stout(hopefully) ("Swintosky, Michael D.")
  Re: pronounciation of wort (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Gott thermometer (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Clear Wort? ("Houseman, David L")
  Re: Fermenting too long? (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Cold Fermenting (LaBorde, Ronald)
  St Georgan Braurei (Andrew Stavrolakis)
  how do you say wort? (Lou.Heavner)
  Re: Belgian Ale Styles (Rob Kienle)
  Wheat and Munich Malts (Thomas S Barnett)
  re: pronunciation of 'wort' (Tidmarsh Major)
  Roasty Schwarzbier ("Tomusiak, Mark")
  Re: I now pronounce thee... (ulfin)
  Dark Alt (Jon Macleod)
  Re: I now pronounce thee... ("Ludwig's")
  Damp-Rid usage (Doug Moyer)
  Yeast washing when repitching (Adam Holmes)


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Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 21:24:37 -0800
From: "John & Joy Vaughn" <jvaughn at redshift.com>
Subject: Re: Time to Brew

Ed Steinkamp wonders, in HBD #2859 (can you tell I'm behind in my
reading?), what problems he might have in mashing for eight or nine hours.

Last February (in the face of El Nino) our club, Yeast of Eden Homebrewers
in Salinas, California, did an experiment.  We brewed two 10 gallon batches
of oatmeal stout at Carmel Brewing Company using homebrewing equipment,
picnic cooler, propane burners, converted kegs, etc.  The first batch was
mashed at 154F for about 18 hours.  I don't know the final temperature.
The second was 80 minutes at 154F.  Identical recipes were used.  Original
gravity for each was 13P, approximately 1.050 for the Plato impaired ;>).
They were each fermented in Sankey kegs and served from the same kegs five
weeks later.  The 18 hour mash tasted a little smoother, however, they were
both excellent.  This seems to indicate that as long as the mash doesn't
sour, everything is OK. OR maybe we did not reach souring temperatures.

Just one data point.

John Vaughn
Castroville, California
Many miles from Jeff Renner and agreeing that everyone should let us know
where you are when you post to the HBD.



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Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 23:24:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: Mash in space?


Ludwig wrote:

> Scott, you and I have conversed on this several times and I think
> that we probably are not really in disagreement but you keep trying
> to pin this all on gravity and seem to be in denial that there can
> be a pressure gradient in the mash in any direction except down.

I have to wonder where the external energy source is.  Do you
typically attach your lauter tun to a rope and swing it around your
head?  Do you tow it behind your boat?  When you open the valve of
your lauter tun, what is making the wort flow?  

> So take a horizontal slice through the mash tun at some arbitrary
> point and measure the static pressure (Ps) of the fluid and you'll
> find that the Ps is highest at the outer area of the mash and lowest
> in the center above the central collection point. So if you
> instantaneously remove the tubes, the liquid will flow towards the
> center of the mash because there is a static pressure gradient from
> the outer areas to the center.

The pictures from John's experiment clearly show uniform downward flow
everywhere except near the bottom surface of the lauter tun.

There is a very simple experiment you can do to confirm this.  Fill a
bottling bucket with water.  Let it settle (takes quite a while).
Sprinkle pepper over the surface.  Open the drain valve.  Watch what
happens to the pepper.  The pepper will not move, except for those
close to the walls, as a boundary layer forms next to wall from the
downward flow.  

 -SM-


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Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 06:02:15 -0500
From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: Re: new Wyeast ready-to-pitch packs

>Hi all.  I'm curious about peoples' experiences with the new Wyeast
>super-packs, which are supposedly ready to pitch (after an initial
>12-hour incubation period) without using a starter.

Chuck, as you suspected, these packs are not pitchable. At most they save
you one step in starter building. I normally pour a Wyeast pack into a 10
oz starter (beer bottle with air space) and then into a 700ML starter (wine
bottle with air space). With these new XL packs, I'll skip the first step,
but I definately think you need to continue building starters.

Good luck,
Dan Cole
Roanoke, VA



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Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:19:05 -0500 
From: "Swintosky, Michael D." <Swintosk at timken.com>
Subject: cherries in my stout(hopefully)

I put bing cherries (and cocoa) in a concoction I call "Holiday Stout".
As there are hops in the wort to be strained out, I heat the cherries
separately and add them directly to the primary with the wort.
Syphoning at bottling time can be a problem of course.  You can either
throw the last bit of stout away (wince!) or filter the last bit for
consumption as is or for use in cooking (this stuff makes a great
marinade for roasts!).  The raw stout has a strong winey character to
it.  This mellows over 3 to 6 months in the bottle.  The cherry and
cocoa flavors are quite subtle.  No one has identified them right off
but most are able to notice them among the other flavors after being
told.  The taste resembles a cream sherry.  Alcohol is about 5.5%.  I
think I use 2 pounds of cherries and 1/2 cup cocoa per 5 gal batch.
I've used the cherries fresh as well as frozen.  I don't bother pitting
them, but I do mash them slightly during the simmer.

Mike


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Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:46:50 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: pronounciation of wort

Stephen Cavan <cavanst at duke.usask.ca> wrote:

>As a new brewer I immediately started pronouncing words such as "wort" as
>Papazian suggested. But pronouncing "wort" as "wert" drew some stares
>from people in the English Deptarment at the Univeristy. Of course they
>dont' know brewing terms, do they?  After being challenged about the
>Papazian pronounciation, I checked the OED (Oxford English Dictionary) and
>what did I find?  The pronounciation is wort with a long "o" sound.

I just checked the online OED at the University of Michigan site (available
only to UofM accounts) and found that wort is pronounced with the same "o"
sound (unfortunately, not an ASCII symbol so it won't cut and paste) as
"word," and not the same as "wore."  It sounds to me like we're doing it
right pronouncing it as "wert."

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:20:01 -0600 
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Gott thermometer

	>>>

	I jusr read your response, I am a little behind.  From this
description, I
	cannot figure out what you are using the second 1/2 inch NPT female
	to 1/4 inch NPT female brass fitting for?  It seems like you used
one to go
	thru the wall of the gott.  the male nipple on the inside to hold
the
	fitting in place (in the same manner most spigots are attached to
	buckets?), then just screwed the thermo male fitting in the 1/2"
female
	fitting on the outside of the Gott.  Is there not a probe that needs
to be
	attached on the inside of the gott?  Did I get this right?  Whats
the
	second fitting for?

	Thanks,
	Pete
	<<<

Oh, I used the fittings back to back, one on the inside of the Gott, one on
the outside.
So now I have a 1/2 NPT female thread on the outside which I attach my
thermometer into.
The 1/2 NPT end of the fitting on the inside was at first just left open
with the stem going through the center. Then I had a sudden realization that
I could easily make a probe guard.  I put a copper 1/2 male  to copper pipe
solder type fitting screwed into the inside 1/2 female fitting, then the
other end of the copper fitting accepts a 3 inch piece of rigid copper pipe,
the fitting is a solder fitting to 1/2 male, but I do not solder, lt. just
fits snugly.  I drilled four holes through this piece of pipe, and I have
now made a great probe protector.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:11:12 -0500 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Clear Wort?

Keith asks just "What is a "clear run off"?  I have clear tubing from my
mash/lauter tun to the kettle; same tubing used to siphon from primary
to secondary.  By the time I've recirculated (with a pump for 15-20
minutes) the wort transfered to the kettle is as clear and bright as the
beer being transfered from primary to secondary fermentation.  Not
cloudy at all.  In fact the bits and pieces of grain are usually gone
fairly quickly but it takes a while for the wort to reach this very
clear stage.  Perhaps in your normal runoff you've noticed how clear the
wort is after about 20-30 minutes of sparging/runoff?  Target that going
into the kettle initially.

Dave Houseman


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Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:28:38 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Fermenting too long?

"Jim McZLusky" <crash at pgh.net> wrote:

>I brewed a doppelbock back on 10/18...pitched a Wyeast American Lager at
>around 55-60 Deg. with an OG of 1.060....it has been fermenting in the
>fridge at around 40 degrees ever since. I checked last night and I'm STILL
>getting some bubbling in the airlock every 10 seconds or so. The only thing
>I did that I AM concerned about is I transferred to secondary after the
>first week because I had such a huge amount of hop pellet residue in it and
>was worried it might produce some off-taste being in the fermenter so long.
>Anyways,is this length of time for fementing normal or should I be
>concerned?TIA

I have several thoughts.  First, 40F is awfully cold for a primary lager
fermentation.  45-48F is about as cold as I'd like to go.  Our friend Fred
Scheer fermented at 57F, I believe, at Frankenmuth and Bavarian, where his
pilsner took a bronze last year in the GABF, albeit with a different yeast
(34/70?).  I prefer the colder temps myself.

Second, I have had three lagers (not mine) fermented with the A/B strain
(is that the "American Lager"?) that had high diacetyl levels, and would
suggest that you taste yours and if there is diacetyl, let your last bit of
fermentation go at ~60F, although the thermal mass might preclude getting
that warm.  If there is no diacetyl, it still wouldn't hurt to let it warm
to maybe 48-50F until the bubbles nearly stop, then lower to 32 to lager.

Third, racking *might* have left some yeast behind, but probably the viable
yeast was in suspension, and so it wouldn't be a problem.

Fourth, 1.060 OG is too low for a doppelbock (minimum German OG 18P, or
~1072) - it isn't even a bock (minimum 16P, or ~1064).  But it might still
be a fine beer.

Fifth, RDWHAHB.  It'll probably turn out fine.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:51:40 -0600 
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Cold Fermenting

>>>
From: "Kelly C. Heflin" <kheflin at lucent.com>

I'm doing my first "real Lager" this week. Put it in the fridge right after
pitching a very active cold yeast starter. I've got it in the fridge at
between 45 & 50 degrees. I bought a fridge controller. The fridge is rarely
on due to the outside air temp. I'm worried it could easily get too cold in
there. It was down to 43 early this morning inside the fridge. I've heard of
using a light bulb to warm up the inside...
Any tips on this..
<<<

I have had good results in the cold season by using a heating pad controlled
by  the thermostat.  The light bulb would give off unwanted light, and the
glass could easily break.  It dosen't get very cold in this area, maybe down
to 20F or so, but the pad supplies enough heat to keep my chest freezer warm
enough.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 12:12:56 -0500
From: Andrew Stavrolakis <andrew_stavrolakis at harvard.edu>
Subject: St Georgan Braurei


Has anyone ever successfully cultured yeast from St Georgan (sp?) Keller
Bier?  It's an unfiltered German pilsener which I have become very fond of.
I've seen no mention of it in the archives.

Thanks all,

Andrew.

andrew_stavrolakis at harvard.edu



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Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:33:01 -0600
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: how do you say wort?

     Steve asked about pronouncing wort.  I sure don't want any warts in my
     beer, so I try to clearly differentiate wort from wart.  In fact, I
     pronounce wort like "word" only with a "t" sound on the end instead of
     the "d" sound.  The "long o" sound would be more like sword, wouldn't
     it?  But then I grew up in the south, so all y'all damn yankees
     probably wouldn't understand me anyway!  ;)

     Cheers!

     Lou - Austin, TX  {Look at Ricky go!}


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Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 15:03:04 -0600
From: Rob Kienle <rkienle at interaccess.com>
Subject: Re: Belgian Ale Styles

Thoughts and ruminations regarding this thread as it stands...

Mark T. seems to favor a grouping of ales/pale ales together and
separate from strong ales and specials. This would seem to fit into my
virgo need to create order as presenting sort of a "tiered" approach to
Belgian ales (excluding dubbels, tripels and wits), whereby "ales/pale
ales" (of the everyday variety) exist on tier 1, strong ales (being
similar but stronger [duh]) comprise tier 2, and ales that are not
otherwise classifiable are on tier 3 (as "specials"). Any or all of
them, I would deduce at this point, may use candy sugar. The grain bills
for each would also seem to feature pils and vienna or munich malts most
predominantly. Would it be accurate to assume that significant amounts
of colored malts (such as Special B in particular) would be restricted
to the category of "specials?" And how about spices such as coriander
and sweet orange peel? Might they be found in all three styles or mainly
just the specials? Opinions?

I also wonder about the use of flaked barley (mentioned in Brad's recipe
as "gerstevlokkan"); it would seem to me that flaked barley might be
common to expect in many Belgian ales since it imparts such a creamy
head (wheat adds a *lighter* feeling head in my estimation) and many
Belgian beers like De Koninck and Orval are famous for having almost
stoutlike heads despite their light colorations.

I had a thought or two about fermentation procedures as well; quite a
few Belgian brewers are cited as using very warm fermentation
temperatures, yet I've also read in several places that (particularly
with strong ales or anything over 1.060 let's say) one should keep
fermentation temps down to around 60 to avoid unwanted fussel and/or
headache production. What's the deal here?

And while I'm on the subject of yeasts, does anyone have any guidance as
to the selection over Wyeast's 1214, "Belgian ale," vs. 1762, "Abbey ale
2?" 1388, "Strong ale," seems differentiated enough but I'm not sure
about the other two.

Finally, after having re-read Brad R's listing of a De Koninck recipe
for which no quantity was available, it seemed to me that the quantity
in question might be relatively immaterial if we just use the
percentages. His De Konink recipe therefore comprises 78% pilsner, 16.5%
caramel (tho what variety we don't know, probably pretty light), 5%
flaked barley, and .5% black patent (no doubt for clarity more than
anything else given the flaked barley). With the potential addition of
some vienna this looks like a worthwhile endeavor to me, though might it
also merit some of that ol' candy sugar (oh yeah, *sucrose*) too?

- --
Prosit!
Rob Kienle
Chicago, IL
rkienle at interaccess.com      ***"Life is not a dress rehearsal."***




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Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:20:49 -0600 (CST)
From: Thomas S Barnett <barnets at mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: Wheat and Munich Malts


Hello all,	

	I get the feeling that most people are lagering this time of year,
but i'm still experimenting with wheat beers.  When i brew a wheat beer i
will generally use about 65% wheat malt and 35% 2-row malt, employing a
step-mash procedure.  I've been considering replacing the 2-row with
light Munich Malt.  In part i'm simply curious as to the difference in
flavor the Munich will provide, but am also motivated by Warner's Wheat
beer book, in which he gives a recipe calling for a similar mix of malts.
Anyone have any experience here?  Should i be concerned about proper
enzyme strength for conversion? Should i use a decoction mash? Comments
and/or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks. Tom Barnett.



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Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 16:26:29 -0600
From: Tidmarsh Major <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: re: pronunciation of 'wort'

The Oxford English Dictionary is without a doubt a
fantastic linguistic reference, but one thing to remember
about the pronunciations it gives is that the OED describes the
Received Pronunciation dialect (London/southern English)
and a nineteenth-century variant at that.  It's
pronunciations are by no means _the_ correct ones, merely
those that were prevalent in Oxford and London during the late
nineteenth century. The OED is a "Dictionary on Historical Principles,"
meaning that it is an excellent term for the history of a word, but not
always for current usage (the first edition came out in the 1880's, and
the second in the 1930's).  That said, my copy of the first edition
gives the Papazian-like pronunciation.  The vowel sound it indicates is
the same one in 'hurl' and 'curl.'
 
Note that the American Heritage
Dictionary (a better guide to modern American
usage) gives the Papazian-like pronunciation first (rhymes
with 'hurt') and a pronunciation that rhymes with 'fort'
second.  I'm not so familiar with Canadian dialect and usage, so I can't
comment on what's now current in the usask.ca region, but I suspect it's
in line with AHD and the 1st edition of the OED.
 
Also note that while the Old English form of the word was
generally spelled 'wyrt,' 'y' did not have it's modern
phonetic value and was pronounced like a modern German
u-umlaut, closer to the Papazian pronunciation and the 1st ed. OED
one than to the long-o pronunciation.
 
Fighting linguistics with linguistics,
Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Alabama


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Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 15:25:04 -0800 
From: "Tomusiak, Mark" <tomusiak at amgen.com>
Subject: Roasty Schwarzbier

Greetings all...I have been contemplating brewing a Schwarzbier, inspired by
a few wonderful glasses of draft Kostritzer Schwarzbier that I had a few
months ago.  My investigation into brewing this style has turned up numerous
references to the use of "roasted malts" without much further detail, and in
my mind the term "roasted malt" could apply to a wide variety of malts.
When attempting to recreate a regional specialty (especially European), I
tend to operate under the guideline that my malt bill should utilize only
those malts typically available in that region.  As far as I can tell, the
only heavily roasted malt that is produced in Germany is Carafa, produced by
Weyermann.  Thus, a combination of pilsner, dark munich and carafa malts
would seem to be the way to go - any thoughts or experience with this style?
Thanks and brew on, 

Mark Tomusiak
Boulder, Colorado


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Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:59:52 -0500
From: ulfin at mail.portup.com
Subject: Re: I now pronounce thee...

pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com> writes:
>
>Someone asked for some pronunciations...
>
 . . .
>Vorlauf - vorloff

It's "FOR-lowf"

Dan Butler-Ehle




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Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 21:14:41 -0500
From: marli at bbs2.rmrc.net (Jon Macleod)
Subject: Dark Alt

About 10 years ago, I spent sometime in Germany near Kaiserslautern
(hour or so west of Frankfurt).  Lucky TDY.  There was an dark alt
available there, that I just loved.  I believe the brand was Kuscher
(sp?).  Is anyone else familiar with it?  I would love to make something
like it (all grain).  Heck, I'd even be happy to find a bottle or two
again.  Any ideas?

Mike



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Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 22:00:18 -0500
From: "Ludwig's" <dludwig at us.hsanet.net>
Subject: Re: I now pronounce thee...

> Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your linguist...
> 
> Someone asked for some pronunciations...
> 
> Trub - trube 
> Wort - wert, woart or wart but usually wert
> Vorlauf - vorloff
> Sparge - sparj
> Spargate - spar-get
> Diacetyl - die-ass-it-il, die-ass-eat-il, die-uh-set-ul usually the first,
>            rarely the last
> Decoction - dee-cok-shun
> 
> Hmmmm. Can't think of anything else at the moment.

How bout lager. I used to pronounce it lager (like pager, but with a
hard 'g')). How 'bout the tun in mash tun. I call it a tun (like bun).
Is that right?
Thanks for the Trub pronunciation. I have called it trub (like tub, bub
or grub), and
also wort (like fort or tort). I am also in the die-uh-set-ul camp, but
could be just local SO MD dialect. Don't you just love the english
language? I don't think the french have this problem, do they? 
You really start thinking about this stuff when teaching a 6 year old to
spell. ;\

Dave Ludwig
Flat Iron Brewery
SO MD


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Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 22:55:14 -0500
From: Doug Moyer <shyzaboy at geocities.com>
Subject: Damp-Rid usage

Dearest collective,
    For my dripping, soggy, 16 cu. ft. chest freezer turned beer fridge,
I recently purchased some desiccant (Damp-Rid) on the advice of some
recent posts to the digest. I placed it in place, and the results have
been disheartening. The top layer forms a very hard crust, and no liquid
accumulates in the cup as the directions infer. I try to break up the
crust, but I think I would need to take a hammer to it to do it justice.

    For others that have used this product, were the results positive?
Have you had an experience similar to mine? Have you found a better
product? Please reply to the list, as I have not seen anything of
substance on this thread in the two years I've been watching. (Other
than recommendation to use desiccant.)

Cheers,
Doug Moyer
Salem, VA, USA

Star City Brewers Guild:    http://hbd.org/starcity
Pictures of my baby & beer:    http://www.rev.net/~kmoyer



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Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:38:48 -0700 (MST)
From: Adam Holmes <aaholmes at lamar.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: Yeast washing when repitching

	The few times I have repitched yeast from a previous batch I
have not done a distilled water wash or acid wash of the yeast.  I brew
batches in two successive weeks.  The second week's wort gets tranferred
directly onto the yeast cake of the previous batch (right after I transfer
that batch to a secondary).  I don't wash the yeast or the carboy.  So
far, no obvious taste problems but my questions are:

1. Does yeast need to be washed free of trub and hops if it is being
repitched immediately?  Whenever I read about yeast washing it seems that
the wash is only used to improve the yeast's ability to store in the
fridge for the next month.

2.  BY not washing the carboy, am I begging for an infection?

I like the simplicity of my method but wonder about your experiences.  

Also: when I dry hop my brews I simply sprinkle whole leaf hops onto the
beer in the secondary fermenter.  I just tried putting the hops into a hop
bag with some marbles for weight.  I had a hell of a time cramming this
bag into the carboy's opening and then the marbles weren't heavy enough to
submerge the buoyant hops.  Also a pain to get the bag back out.  Do
people use larger hop bags or what?  I'm back to sprinkling whole hops
directly onto the beer sans bag.

Private mail just fine.
Thanks in advance,
Adam Holmes
Fort Collins, Co



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---