---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  FLASH: Michael Jackson on Public Radio Friday (Rod Schaffter)
  RIMS Questions --- summary ("RANDY ERICKSON")
  Re: "kurds" in my beer! ("Larry Maxwell")
  re: 240V service, I need a neutral ("Dana H. Edgell")
  March Pump AC-2CP-MD ("Dana H. Edgell")
  Pumpkin Specific gravity ("Colin DuBois")
  amber ale (Vachom)
  Advice (Ian Forbes)
  disappointment (Paul Mahoney)
  bock patience? (Paul Mahoney)
  Floating air stones (Ken Houtz)
  RE:  Heat Exchange Systems ("C and K")
  Naming beers (Joseph.M.Labeck at brew, "Jr.")
  A quiet milestone (Ted McIrvine)
  Bottle conditioning as diacetyl rest (Dan Cole)
  Old Style & Youthful Memories ("Brian Wurst")
  Air as a nutrient source? (Bob.Sutton)
  Beets for color (The Brew Company)
  RE: Reusing yeast cake (Matthew Comstock)
  Hops in Guiness (Julio Canseco)
  Brew on Premise ("David R. Burley")
  aging hops for lambics ("Kensler, Paul")
  RE: A quiet milestone (ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO)
  Lag times (John Varady)
  CSA reduction, bottle air (Andrew J Milder)
  plambic hops ("Mike Allred")
  Water Chemistry ("Benjamin H. Hall Jr.")
  Electrical wiring 102 (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Re: Corked lambic storage (Ross Reid)
  Ploating Phalse Bottoms ("Jeff Beinhaur")
  re: 240V service, I need a neutral (Rod Schaffter)
  A quiet milestone - 20th aniversary (Results)
  Mild ("Bryan L. Gros")
  yeast health/does early krausening lead to CAP? (David Whitman)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

Michael Jackson is going to discuss Beer on the NPR program
"Public Interest", airing today 12/4 at 1:00 PM EST.  There 
may be more details at the NPR web site, http://www.npr.org.

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 20:06:14 -0500
From: Rod Schaffter <schaffte at delanet.com>
Subject: FLASH: Michael Jackson on Public Radio Friday

On Friday Michael Jackson is goung to discuss Beer on the NPR program
"Public Interest", airing at 1:00 PM EST.  Here is the description:

"We have all heard of wine snobs, but less talked about are beer snobs.
Today Kojo talks with author Michael Jackson about his book "Ultimate
Beer" discussing the historical origins of beer, brewing methods and
characteristics of all beer types."

If you can't catch it, the shows are archived weekly.  The address is

http://www.wamu.org/pi/ 

A list of NPR stations who carry this show is available
at http://www.wamu.org/piaff.html.

Cheers,
Rod Schaffter
Hockessin, DE


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Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:26:34 -0800
From: "RANDY ERICKSON" <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: RIMS Questions --- summary

A while back I asked for advice on RIMS false bottom designs,
with particular emphasis on those suitable for a GOTT that do not
require a lot of different parts.

<John_E_Schnupp at amat.com> uses a piece of 1/8" screen,
with ss bolts for legs, and slits a length of poly tubing to fit
around the outside.  This makes a tight seal around the edges
of the inside of the GOTT.

Fred Wills <MaltHound at aol.com> uses a slotted pipe manifold in
a rectangular cooler with no problems.  He also turned me on
to the 3-MDX Little Giant pump (Grainger p/n 2P579A) for only
$72.

"Roger Marshall" <roger at caribsurf.com> cut the handle off of a
5" dia. kitchen strainer and inverted it on the floor of  the cooler.
He carefully cut a hole in the side for the copper drain tubing,
the force of which keeps the strainer from moving around.

Lee Menegoni <Lee.Menegoni at digital.com> suggests a coil of
1/2" OD copper tubing with 1/16" drilled holes.  He also
suggests draining by gravity to a lauter grant (plastic bucket),
then circulating the wort by pump. 

C.D. Pritchard uses a spiral coil of ss braided 1/2" OD hose
for his false bottom.  Plenty of open area, and damn-near
impossible for grain to pass through.

FWIW, no-one responded that they use an EasyMasher with
RIMS.  I was kind of hoping someone would.

**************************************************************************

Also recently, my friend Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
posted about using a NPT x 3/8" compression fitting with a
length of 3/8" polycarbonate tubing for a *sight* glass.  When
I asked him about a source for this tubing, he directed me to
a plastic supply house, which doesn't really work in my area.  I did
think of a solution though --- racking cane!

It turns out that the standard 3/8" clear racking cane fits nicely
in a 3/8" compression fitting.  I replaced the brass sleeve with
a poly one, but I noticed that a corny keg dip tube o-ring also
appears to fit.

Cheers and thanks,
Randy in Modesto

"Ever notice that those most intent on sharing their religion with
you have no interest in you sharing yours with them?"


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Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 11:04:18 -0800
From: "Larry Maxwell" <Larry at bmhm.com>
Subject: Re: "kurds" in my beer!

Ah, first we had beer glasses engraved with "hbd.org" attached
to our kettles, and now we have Near-Eastern people in our beer!

Larry Maxwell
San Diego


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Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:23:24 -0800
From: "Dana H. Edgell" <edgell at far-tech.com>
Subject: re: 240V service, I need a neutral

Thanks for all the helpfull responses on the HBD and by email,

As I was afraid of, but hoped some-one would convince me otherwise, it is
unsafe to use the ground as a neutral.

As for other items raised,

1) Rod Prather wrote...
>In spite of this you already have 2  120 VAC lines in your home.
>Black to bare and white to bare.  The bare wire is your neutral not your
>ground.  Ground is "GROUND" as in DIRT and is attached to the breaker box

The bare wire is definately a ground. I found it tied to a box casing.
(This info was missing from the original post)

2) Jason henning wrote...
>Then your 10 to 15 amps too high for the GFIs. A 15A GFI can be hooked
>up to a 15 or 20A circuit, not a 30A. GFIs don't provide overcurrent
>protection. A GFI won't trip because 20A+ is running through it.

I was planning on using two GFCI's one with each hot wire. The load each
would see would have been only a single water heater element (~13 amps) as
there are at the end of the line.

3) Seth Goodman wrote...
>A 120V/30A circuit would be good for nothing more than a large coffee
>pot; even 240V/30A sounds a little small. No doubt the water heater is
>using the *full rated capacity* of this circuit - you cannot legally
>or safely tap into it for your HLT. Sorry.

Yes, the water heater is kinda small and works poorly.

I was planning on turning the hot water heater off while brewing (either
manually or by a built in relay to prevent my forgetting) so I wouldn't
overload the circuit.


One suggestion (sorry I don't have the name at work) was to use one hot
line from the 240V water heater supply and the neutral from the wall plug
(connected trough a GFCI of course). This would put double the current on
that neutral (up to 30 amp). As the neutral doesn't go through the breaker
(only the hot does) this wouldn't trip the 15 amp breaker.

*IF* the gauge of the return wire is sufficient to handle 30 amps (12
gauge? I will look it up and check the wire) does this sound safe?

As mentioned above, when brewing I will turn off the hot water heater and
the other regular 120V line has only the master bedroom (a clock only) on
it.

Thanks for all the safety help. A little paranoia is better than
overconfidence when dealing with electricity and water.

Dana

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Dana Edgell                         edgell at cari.net
2939 Cowley Way #G         http://www.quantum-net.com/edge_ale
San Diego, CA 92117         (619) 276-7644




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Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:40:13 -0800
From: "Dana H. Edgell" <edgell at cari.net>
Subject: March Pump AC-2CP-MD


I have found a bunch of magnetic drive pumps at a surplus store. they are
March AC-2CP-MD pumps. From the March website (www.marchpump.com) I have
found the following specs.

13ft head,flow at 1ft=4.75 gal/min; flow  at 6ft=3.25 gal/min

I have two questions for anyone with knowledge of these pumps or pumps in
general...

1) What is the temperature rating of this pump?

2) Is this pump powefull enough to pump wort through a 25ft coil of 3/8"
o.d. copper tubing. I am concerned that the resistriction due to the coil
may exceed the head. Can any fluid engineers out there tell me how to
calculate the restriction of a coil?

Thanks for any help you can give.

Dana


- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Dana Edgell                         edgell at cari.net
2939 Cowley Way #G         http://www.quantum-net.com/edge_ale
San Diego, CA 92117         (619) 276-7644




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Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:46:12 -0500
From: "Colin DuBois" <cdubois at ptd.net>
Subject: Pumpkin Specific gravity

Brewing on the Saturday after Turkey day puts me a little late on the
pumpkin ale this year.  I have had no luck in finding a standard to use in
determining the amount of fermentables pumpkin adds to the brew.  I have
probably made it harder to calculate by adding the juice to the boil and not
the pumpkin itself.  I steamed 18lbs of pumpkin and then ran it through a
squeezo extracting 2 gallons of juice.  I then added the juice to the boil
of an all-grain batch.  Any s.g. numbers on pumpkin or it's juice would be
greatly appreciated.

Colin DuBois
Perception Is Reality



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Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:46:02 -0600 
From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us>
Subject: amber ale

	Scott asks in #2890 just what amber ale is.  Amber ale is, for one,
an AHA recognized American style.  American wheat, several American style
lagers and amber ale tend to be the whipping boys of style super-purists
(they tend to lay off American pale ale).  These styles are characterized,
these critics would argue, by their lack of character and history--it's
often a hot debate.  In the marketplace, amber ale is usually a
micro-brewery's flagship product engineered to be a cross-over beer, that
is, palatable to a first time drinker whose beer experience has been more
along the lines of Bud, Heineken and whose notion of styles is light and
dark.  No snobbery intended here:  Light and Dark were basically the style
categories for the AHA 20 years ago, and any craft brewer will tell you that
part of his job is to educate his customers about style differences so he
can sell them more of his product.  Amber ale is a gateway beer--not too
hoppy, not too malty.  Get the customer hooked on your flagship amber, and
soon enough he'll try a hoppy pale ale, another couple of months and he'll
be jonesin' for a roasty stout, and when he goes to the supermarket, he'll
buy six of all three.  I'm living proof of the success of this marketing
strategy.  I like my local craft brewer's amber--Abita Amber.  I don't tend
to buy it that often for myself; I'll buy Abita's seasonal (a malty
Christmas ale right now) instead.  But if I'm throwing a party, Abita Amber
is what's in the cooler.  The light lager drinkers seem happy to try
something new and the "beer conscious" are happy to have something while not
awe-inspiring, at least tasty.

Happy brewing,

Mike
New Orleans, LA


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Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:00:29 -0500
From: Ian_Forbes at AICI.COM (Ian Forbes)
Subject: Advice

A little birdy told me that I will be recieving some brewing
equipment for my birthday (this Saturday) and Christmas.  I
told this little birdy some of the things I wanted, among them
a Gott cooler.  Turns out that stores only stock the stupid
things during the summer months.  (Go figure)  Does anyone know
where  Gott can be found this time of year?
While I am on the subject, I also wonder if a 5 gallon or 10
gallon cooler is better.  I plan on doing 5 gallon batches.

As always, I thank you for your help.

Ian Forbes
Hamden, CT


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Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 20:44:23 -0500
From: Paul Mahoney <pmmaho at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: disappointment

I am greatly disappointed in all of you.  You have failed, collectively and
 individually!
      In the Nov. 28, 1998 edition of "The Economist" it is reported that 
the Czechs just cannot get enough beer.  Retail sales per person for 1997 
in the Czech Republic topped 179.5 litres (almost 1/2 litre per day).  
Ireland was in second place with 136 litres. In the USA it was about 65,
 back in 10th place.  Australia was around 60 (Ha, take that Crocodile Dundee!)
      Let's do better next year folks.  I know this report is on retail sales,
 and we brew our own, but it is indicative of overall consumption.
  Let's go team!
 
 Paul Mahoney
 Roanoke, Va.




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Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 20:47:51 -0500
From: Paul Mahoney <pmmaho at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: bock patience?

Bock Patience?
 
    I tried to brew a partial mash bock on November 11, 1998.  Our
homebrewers club (StarCity Homebrewers Guild) is brewing bocks for our
February 4, 1999 monthly meeting.
   I fermented it for 19 days at 48-50 F, then racked it to a
secondary glass carboy for lagering.  I have read conflicting
opinions about 1)how long to keep it in the secondary, 2) whether or
not a diacetyl rest is necessary, 3) and when to bottle.
 
     Here is my recipe:
8+ lbs. M&F super light LME
 2 lbs. Munich
 2 oz. Chocolate
 Mt. Hood pellets (finishing)
 Tettnanger pellets (bittering)
 WhiteLabs pitchable yeast WLP 820 (or was it 830?) German Lager Yeast
  1 tbsp canning salt
 
 My OG was 1.055 (I know, I should have OG of 1.064+, but I thought that a 
long boil would thicken or increase the gravity).  4.5 gallons of wort.  
After 19 days my gravity is 1.014.
 
    So, is a diacetyl rest necessary or beneficial for this brew?
When should I bottle?  How much longer should I keep this in the
secondary?  Will it be ready for our homebrew club taste-testing on
Feb. 4, 1999?   Thanks.
 
Paul Mahoney
Roanoke, Virginia



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Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 21:38:45 -0500
From: Ken Houtz <kenhoutz at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Floating air stones

- -- [ From: Ken Houtz * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] --

Kirk,

I bought one of those systems but for air instead of O2 and had the same
problem with it floating.  I just took a 5/16 - 18 SS nut, drilled the minor
diameter out to 9/32 and slipped it over the barb portion.  That took it to
just a bit heavier than neutral buoyancy and it has worked fine ever since. 
Your washers will do the same thing.

You are probably wondering the same thing I did which is why do they sell
something which needs to be modified in order to work - or am I doing
something wrong.  I wondered about it awhile, drilled out the nut, and DID
it.  It works.  The question remains.  And I don't know the answer but my
curiosity diminishes daily.

Ken Houtz

]Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 11:03:49 -0500
]From: "Kirk Harralson" <kwh at ismd.ups.com>
]Subject: Floating air stones / shops
]
]I recently bought one of the oxygentation systems that ]use the small
]O2 tanks.  I used it as directed; and, as I was timing ]how long I
]had the valve open, I noticed the SS air stone practically ]floating
]on top of the wort.  I tried to encourage it to sink to the ]bottom,
]but with no luck.  I doubt I got much oxygen into the ]wort.  So,
]what is the best way around this?  I've thought about ]buying some SS
]washers to put over the tube near the bottom to weight ]it down, but
]I'm not crazy about that idea.  Anybody else encounter ]this?

]Kirk Harralson
]Bel Air, Maryland



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Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:52:29 -0800
From: "C and K" <Cuckold at cornerpub.com>
Subject: RE:  Heat Exchange Systems

I am 90% complete with my two-tier system with HERMS type setup (awaiting a
pump, which will have to be after x-mas, according to spousal unit).

With no previous all-grain knowledge, I am forging ahead with my system,
gleaned from all of you good fellows on the HBD, and on the net.  Don't
know if it will help anyone, but since I gained so much from others,
decided to post my own page, so others can avoid my mistakes along the way.
 No pictures yet, sorry.  Hopefully soon!

Chris
http://members.theglobe.com/Cuckold/brewery.html

Seldom correct...but never without doubt


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Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 23:52:56 +0800
From: Joseph.M.Labeck at brew, "Jr." <joe-sysop at cyberbury.net>
Subject: Naming beers

Hi, folks;
	Greetings from the only guy in the brewing universe 
with NO all-grain ambitions, with a couple of random thoughts...
	First, I thought you'd like a funny story, to wit:

I was sitting at my confuser, reading my beloved HBD. Barb, 
who has now been putting up with me for 15 years (Bless her), 
was in the kitchen catching up on some dishes. I saw a post 
about brewing one of those "winter warmer" type spiced ales. 
I thought that might be a nice one to try. If it came out 
nice enough, I could use it as a gift for friends.

So I say to my honey, "Hun, I think I'm gonna make a 
Christmas Beer this year."

With the water running in the sink, she can't hear me. She 
says, "What?"

I repeat it, louder. She comes around the corner with a look 
of disbelief, and asks, "You're making a WHAT?"

"A Christmas Beer?"

She breaks down laughing, and says that it sounded like I had 
said I was gonna make "A Crystal Sphere". So, my spiced 
holiday ale will be (tada!) 
Barb's Crystal Sphere.

Sometimes I think the only reason I brew is so I can name 
these beers. :)

	Second, I recall a short time ago there was a flurry of 
well-deserved praise for Pat and Karl, and their efforts on the behalf of 
the HBD (aitch bee DEE). I became a subscriber just before the end of the 
AOB era, and the death throes were not pretty.
	What with Christmas coming up and all, Howzabout we all send them a 
beer...just one...not even necessarily our best. I'm sure we'd all like to 
have them over for a couple, and thank them in person. This might be the way 
to do it.

	Lastly, a quick aside to Badger. Long ago, (1983) I was Lord 
Theodore Digenes Ducas of the Barony of Dragonship Haven, in the East 
Kingdom. I --uh-- thought you should know that.

Joe (My best guess puts me about 550 mi. ESE of Jeff Renner)
 -Joseph M. Labeck, Jr.
Joe's Beer - Featuring Cuppa Joe Stout,
Nut "n" Tuit Brown Ale, Nothing Special 
Bitters, Uncle Bill's Porter, Born To Be
Mild Ale and introducing Barb's Crystal Sphere



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Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 13:40:56 -0800
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: A quiet milestone

Congratulations, Charlie.  You made brewing a fun, worry-less, and
enjoyable experience (with no need for rocket science) for many brewers
including me.  I thank you for your contributions to this milestone.

But on December 5th, I'm raising a glass of home-brewed mead to toast. 
I had great beers before I discovered homebrewing, but mead-making was
for me the most exciting part of the homebrewing/good beer revolution.

Ted McIrvine

> Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 16:03:36 -0700
> From: Charlie Papazian <charlie at aob.org>
> Subject: A quiet milestone
> 
> This Saturday, December 5 is the 20th birthday of the American
> Homebrewers Association and the first issue of Zymurgy.
> 
> I think I'll have a beer - not just any beer but a homebrew and
> personally toast the thousands of homebrewers, clubs, beer enthusiasts
> and especially staff and staff volunteers who throughout the years have
> put us where we are.  ... And have turned the world onto craft made
> beer.
> - --
> Charlie Papazian
> President
> Association of Brewers            (303) 447-0816 x 111        (voice)
> 736 Pearl Street                  (303) 447-2825              (fax)
> PO Box 1679                       charlie at aob.org             (e-mail)
> Boulder, CO  80306-1679           72210.2754 at compuserve.com   (e-mail)
> U.S.A.                            http://beertown.org         (web)
>


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Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 06:01:59 -0500
From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: Bottle conditioning as diacetyl rest

OK, I've got my first true lager fermenting slowly in my 'fridge and a
thought occurred to me... Why do I have to do a diacetyl now, if I'm going
to eventually bottle condition at room temperature for a couple of weeks?

I can think of at least one posibility (more yeast in fermenter diacetyl
rest would take less time with the greater yeast), but couldn't 2 weeks
with a reduced yeast count equal 2 days with a greater count?

This may be a stupid idea, but it may also explain why some people claim
that they don't use a D-rest and can't taste any diacetyl in their finished
beer, and why other people swear by the D-rest. Maybe those that don't do a
D-rest are bottle conditioning, while those that do a D-rest are kegging
and artificially carbonating? This may go hand in hand with the level of
advancement of homebrewers; those with kegs are more advanced and more
well-read so they will include (and need?) a D-rest, while those that are
still bottling are less-read (than the 1st group) and don't include (or
need?) a D-rest.

Thoughts along this line may be more fruitful that questioning each others'
palates (gosh, I hope I spelled that right).


Just thinking,
Dan Cole
Roanoke, VA
Star City Brewers' Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity/



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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 07:35:13 -0600
From: "Brian Wurst" <brian at mail.netwave.net>
Subject: Old Style & Youthful Memories

Donald Beistle <dbeistle at arches.uga.edu> posted in HBD #2891:
- --quote----
All the talk lately about references to krauesening in beer ads from the
greater Great Lakes region has me reminiscing about my own dissolute
youth. I have to add my voice to fray, affirming that it indeed was
the House of Heileman that touted the benefits of krauesening for its Old
Style brand. Anybody else remember when Old Style was "Pure brewed, double
brewed in the late '70s and early '80s?

By the way, has anyone else noticed a correlation between early exposure
to krauesening-related beer advertising and an interest in the Classic
American Pilsner movement? I know I've got the bug and everyone else
associated with recreating this style seems to hail from Wisconsin or
Michigan.Is there some Proustian compulsion to recapture the Old Styles
and Hubers and Hammeses and Lithias from out of our childhoods driving us
to brew with corn and domestic hops?
- ---endquote---------

Being a native-born Cheesehead raised on C.O.M.B. (Cheese, OldStyle, Milk and
Brats) I can agree with Donald that Heileman has been selling its Old Style as
krausened for decades (at least 3 that I can remember).

Relative to Donald's second statement, perhaps we are so interested in CAPs
because the beers of our (relative) childhood have changed over the years.
Heileman's Special Export in the late 70's was a different critter from the
swill it is today.  Same goes for Pabst's Andecker, which in the mid-70's was a
superb beer...about 1980 they changed its packaging and recipe...a fine beer
lost forever.   The trend of megabrews being reformulated into Barley Coke (tm)
led me to homebrew in the first place.

As for using domestic hops, the experiences of my youth with Schlitz (which uses
Cluster hops) have tainted my use of the hop in homebrewing...one taste of a
Cluster-hopped beer brings it all back (in reverse-peristalsis mode!).

Happy Trails!
Brian Wurst   brian at mail.netwave.net     Lombard, Illinois
"Nature has formed you, desire has trained you, fortune has preserved you for
this insanity." -Cicero




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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:33:37 -0500
From: Bob.Sutton at fluordaniel.com
Subject: Air as a nutrient source?

Ron

Your speaker is misinformed. Soluble gaseous nitrogen (from air) provides no
nutrient value. Unlike soybeans, brewing yeast is unable to "fix" free nitrogen
from solution. Instead, nitrogen is taken up in organic form.

From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald) stated:

>Recently our club had a guest speaker, Henryck Orlick, Brewmaster; Abita
>Brewing C0, who gave us some tips on yeast in brewing.  He suggested that
>air was better than pure O2 because air contains nitrogen, and it was his
>advice that the nitrogen is used by the yeast to some degree as nutrient,
>thus air is better, in his opinion, than pure 02.


Bob
Fruit Fly Brewhaus
Yesterdays' Technology Today


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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:50:45 -0500 (EST)
From: The Brew Company <sales at brewcompany.com>
Subject: Beets for color


Darrell writes about beets in his high gravity ale:
(stuff deleted)
The color was wonderful...to the point that I want to call this one
"Purple Haze"....but after the boil the color seems to have melded into
the wort.  Does anyone know whether I could/ should extract more liquid
from several beets by boiling, and add this to the secondary?  I am of
course worried that there may be starches or off flavors that could be
departed along with the color...  Any ideas?  Or perhaps there is a safer
way to impart purple to a 5 gallon batch?
- ---------

I haven't used beets for beer, yet, but do have a batch of beet wine
fermenting.  I agree with the color, it's an awesome hot pink - florescent
purple mix.  It's in the very early fermenting stage but I couldn't resist
and had a taste over thanksgiving break.  It has a nice beet flavor and a
subtle beet bitterness as well.  I think with age, it should be quite
awesome or at least interesting.  The bitterness could be from the fact
that I used some older, bigger beets out of the garden.  Beets are best
when they are smaller/fresher.  Also, I left most of the skins on, this
may have added bitterness as well. 

So, from my limited experience, I would say to boil some beets (as if
serving for dinner).  The boiling will bring out the sweetness (convert
the starches) and color.  You could then add just the cooled solution to
the secondary, or both, the liquid and the beet mash.  In wine making,
keeping the fruit/veggie in the fermenter for about a week or so adds
color.  This is what I did with the wine.  Originally, the must (wort in
the wine world) looked blood red and now has the pink/purple cool looking
color.   If/when, doing a beet beer, I would make it light as possible
by using oly pale grains (superlight malt extract, for those non-mashers).

 -Skill

 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 The Brew Company of Carlisle                                 717-241-2734
 152 South Hanover Street                               (fax) 717-241-2735
 Carlisle, PA 17013          www.brewcompany.com     sales at brewcompany.com
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 05:48:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Reusing yeast cake

Holey moley Batman

So I reused the Wyeast 1056 yeast cake of my 1.078 stout to make a
1.050 pale ale.  I siphoned off the stout into the bottling bucket
leaving behind about a liter of liquid over the yeast cake.  I dumped
in 2-3 gallons of boiled/cooled water and then siphoned in, through a
strainer, the aerated pale ale wort.  There wasn't a lot of gunge on
the sides of the plastic fermenter but I soaked a couple of paper
towels in EtOH and quickly wiped the sides and lid to ease the
worries.  I stirred the wort with a sanitized spoon, took a gravity
reading and shut it up tight. I went on to bottle the stout.  1 h
later, the airlock, which had been kinda sucking back as the wort
cooled from 78F, was looking as if it was showing positive pressure. 
Nah, I thought, and ignored it.  2 h later is was bubbling at 1
bubble/8 seconds!  That's a start 10 h faster than last batch!  This
morning, 5 h after pitching, the airlock is hanging on for dear life
as the bubbles are erupting about 6 bubbles/1 second.  Oh man am I
getting dizzy?  Air! I need air!  The basement is filling up with CO2.
 The fermentation is going a little warm at 74F, so maybe this is a
partial source of the activity, but dang!  I won't be surprised if the
lid blows off.  In summary, pitching on the yeast cake of the previous
batch makes a great starter, thus (hopefully) avoiding all the
headaches of a slow start.  I'm not worried about 'pulling off onto
the shoulder of "style"'(I like that phrase) with my stout/pale ale
1-2 punch, but others might consider this a faux pas.  But, this makes
for a *long* brewday (or night, in my case)- brewing and bottling in
the same session.  This was one brewday (night) I waited till the end
to 'relax-don't worry-have a homebrew.' We'll see how it turns out.
Laters,
Matt

Brew till the
end
 
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:03:40 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
From: Julio Canseco <jcanseco at arches.uga.edu>
Subject: Hops in Guiness

Greetings,

Does anyone know which hops are used in Guiness? I am planning to brew 
an all grain stout and would like it to be similar to Guiness. I 
checked the recipes in the CM3 and found hardly two recipes using the 
same hops.

Thanks in advance.

		julio in Athens, Ga.




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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 10:01:56 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Brew on Premise

Brewsters:

Garofalo objects to the use of "Brew on Premise" versus "Brew on 
Premises"
to describe what a brewpub does. Actually their use of the former is
accurate.
In my opinion most brewpubs brew on the premise that thay are making
better beer than you can buy from a package store, which is not true in
my experience at many of them, unfortunately.  



Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK  


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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:32:59 -0700 
From: "Kensler, Paul" <paul.kensler at wilcom.com>
Subject: aging hops for lambics

Matthew,
Yes, if you have time, just sticking your hops in a paper bag will
oxidize them nicely.  I have made a couple of lambics, and both times I
"aged" the hops in my oven at a low temperature (<200F) for 90-120
minutes.  Baking them seems to have the same effect - essentially, you
want to drive off all the aromatic and flavor compounds.

Have fun,

Paul Kensler
Plano, TX


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Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 10:04:13 -0600
From: ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO <skotrat at wwa.com>
Subject: RE: A quiet milestone

The Ego-ridden-swollen-headed-weazle Charlie "You Should All Kiss my ass for
what I have done for you all... (God I am Great)" Papazian writes:


This Saturday, December 5 is the 20th birthday of the American
Homebrewers Association and the first issue of Zymurgy.  

Skotrat says:

Wow Charlie, it is amazing how far down hill it has gone since then... I
can't wait to try the soda pop I made and the cool bottle openers from your
fantastic special issues. 

But anyway I am so glad you reminded us the December 5th is the date. I am
sure that all the real homebrewers out there had no idea about this great
milestone you mention.

The Ego-ridden-swollen-headed-weazle Charlie "You Should All Kiss my ass for
what I have done for you all... (God I am Great)" Papazian writes:

I think I'll have a beer - not just any beer but a homebrew and
personally toast the thousands of homebrewers, clubs, beer enthusiasts
and especially staff and staff volunteers who throughout the years have
put us where we are.  ... And have turned the world onto craft made
beer.

Skotrat says:

I would like to raise a glass to all the homebrewers that have nothing to do
with you or your so called member driven farce of a magazine subscription. I
would like to raise a toast to all the fallout you have created. I would
like to raise a toast to all the "Volunteers" that you have not paid and
screwed for so long. I would like to raise a toast to you for being so
concerned but never really doing anything for any of us but tell us about
how much you have done and how thankful you are for all of us... 

I would love to thank Cathy Ewing and raise the whole damn bottle of brew
for her caring and great attitude towards all the little people like myself.

I would like to raise a toast to Mr. Spence for getting out of the AOB/AHA
whilst he still had his wits about him.

I would like to raise a Toast to Jim Liddil and Louis Bonham for raising
hell and giving you guys hell.

I would like to raise a toast to all the employees whom you have hired and
paid so little whilst you write off your huge expenses and pull in the big
bucks.

I would like to raise a toast to PAT BABCOCK AND KARL LUTZEN for saving the
HBD from the likes of a circus of pie throwing fools like the AOB/AHA.

I would like to raise a toast for all the super acurate information that is
so up to date on your AOB/AHA website... 

I raise 2 toasts for the ever so excellent way you screw up the AHA National
competition every year.

Charlie, You have nothing to do with Homebrewing or HomeBrewers. You are a
shell of what you started. As far as I am concerned had Dave Line not died
so early you would be no where.

Please stop bothering the true Homebrewing community with the poop you are
peddling. I for one am totally sick of it. 

Your Pal...

 -Scott "keep those flames coming" Abene

ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT
Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>
http://skotrat.dynip.com/skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)

"The More I know About Cathy Ewing, The More The AHA SUCKS"



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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 11:12:50 -0500 (EST)
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Lag times

With the talk about oxygen causing lag times, I did some data grouping based
on the PAE data collected. Here is a chart of aeration method, average lag
time and the count of brewers in the sample.

Method             Lag   Count
================== ===== =====
Air Pump           30.50     4
Oxygen             36.36    11
Shake Carboy       23.00     6
Spray/Venturi      29.60     9

Although it may be hard on your back, the yeast seem to love being rocked
into fermentation! So shake those carboys...

John

- --
John Varady             The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
rust1d at usa.net          http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady
Glenside, PA            Boneyard Brewing ----------- UnReal Ale



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Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 10:12:51 -0600
From: Andrew J Milder <amilder at flash.net>
Subject: CSA reduction, bottle air

Hello collective,
I just read the excellent article by George Fix on beer stability
in the latest "Brewing Techniques" and I want to try to reduce
the headspace air. Prof. Fix says that (paraphrasing here) homebrew
fillers can give very low levels of headspace air if one caps on
the foam. I've heard people here refer to "capping on foam" as well.
My problem is that I don't have any foam to cap on, in fact, I go
out of my way not to produce foam when bottling, since I thought
that would aerate the beer. Is Prof. Fix making the assumption
(unstated, I think) that one is using a counter-pressure bottle
filler? I don't have a CO2 setup and don't plan on getting one in
the near future, is there any way for me to cap on foam without
aerating the beer? Can I "cap on beer" (i.e. no headspace?)
I leave about 3/4 - 1 inch of headspace - probably >2 ml, way more
than recommended. With this much air and storage at room temperature
in order to carbonate, I get the feeling from this article that my
beer is always oxidized by the time it's ready to drink! 

Sorry for what may sound like stupid newbie questions, but this 
article has me a little confused.

Thanks,
Andy Milder
Austin, TX



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Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 09:36:00 -0800
From: "Mike Allred" <mike.allred at malnove.com>
Subject: plambic hops


FWIW

On this note, I have about 1/2 LB of real old hops (stored in paper bags   
for plambics for 2 years), I will never use them all.  If anyone would   
like to cut down of the time involved, I could spare a few ounces.  Come   
get them (Utah), or pay postage.

>>From: marnold at ez-net.com (Matthew Arnold)
>>so, I thought it would be best if I start aging some hops now. I
>>know that the hops are added more for preservative reasons than   
bittering,
>>flavor, or aroma. I've got some extremely low alpha Hersbrucker pellets   
(1.3%)
>>that I thought would be ideal for this situation. I was going to just   
put them
>>in a paper bag and let them sit.



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Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 10:49:22 -0600
From: "Benjamin H. Hall Jr." <bhall at edge.net>
Subject: Water Chemistry

I have launched a self education effort on water chemistry w.r.t.
brewing. I have found some very helpful things on-line by Ken Schwartz
and A. J. deLange and have placed some of this information in a
spreadsheet. I am currently looking for the effect of boiling on the
water chemistry. I found an explanation by Dave Miller that states that
boiling will remove all but 30 to 40 ppm of the carbonate-bicarbonate
and that will result in the loss of 3 ppm of calcium for each 5ppm loss
of the carbonate-bicarbonate.

I would like to know if this is consistent with the view of the more
knowledgeable members of the group. What is the effect of boiling on pH?
I have searched the HBD archives with limited sucess. Its amazing how
often the words water and chemistry show up. Imagine that.
Is there reading material I can get my hands on to further my education.

Thanks,

Ben Hall
Metropolitan Lynchburg/Moore Co. TN


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Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 10:31:22 -0800
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Electrical wiring 102

I wrote that 120 and 240V are "the max voltages in the 60 Hz AC cycle."

I have been corrected twice so far in private email that in fact these are
the RMS voltages of the cycle (which goes both positive and negative), not
the peak voltages.  Thanks to those who have, and to those whom, I'm sure,
will further correct me.

Fortunately this does not affect the understanding of what wire is what that
I was trying to get across in my post.
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at stanford.edu
http://www.stanford.edu/~jeremybb


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Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 18:55:28 GMT
From: mrreid at golden.net (Ross Reid)
Subject: Re: Corked lambic storage

In HBD 2890 "Rob Jones" <robjones at pathcom.com> asked:

>While in a lambic frame of mind, what's the general opinion on 
>storage of commercial, corked lambics? On their side or upright?

A few months back, one of our local LCBO outlets had quite a
display of lambics and I picked up 8 bottles (Kreik and Framboise
for my wife and daughter-in-law). These were all finished with
the champagne style corks. Stored them in a wine rack in the
basement, on their side as I do with all my corked wines. 
This past Monday night my wife said she fancied a Framboise, went
to the basement and brought one upstairs. It had obviously been
leaking and she said a total of 6 out of the eight were leaking.
Luckily, when I opened it, I held the cork while undoing the wire
cage. The cork was under extreme pressure which had obviously
been forcing a small quantity of beer past the cork while it was
on its side.
On the other hand, if they had been stored upright, would all the
carbonation have gradually leaked out leaving 6 out of the 8
somewhat flat?
Sorry, I know I didn't answer your question, just posed another
one :-(.
Cheers,
Ross Reid,
In Branchton, Ontario.
Roughly 90 km West of TO and, 340 km East of Jeff Renner.

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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:07:36 -0500
From: "Jeff Beinhaur" <beinhaur at email.msn.com>
Subject: Ploating Phalse Bottoms

And yet another solution....
Use a buffer pad (as in the buffer you use on floors) that is slighty larger
then the Phalse Bottom. Slide this down over the false bottom and bingo.
You've got something to hold it down, to avoid stuck sparges and little
recirculation of wort is needed to clarify. The drawback is cleaning it and
after a number of uses it may need replaced.

Jeff Beinhaur, Camp Hill, PA
Home of the Yellow Breeches Brewery





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Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:59:39 -0500
From: Rod Schaffter <schaffte at delanet.com>
Subject: re: 240V service, I need a neutral

John observed:
> Dana's problem is:
> 
> >I have recently moved into a condo and both my wife and I are
> > very glad to have all of my brewing stuff moved into a garage.
> > Unfortunately, the housing association feels that my brewing, 
> >using a propane burner, in my garage doorway (as far out as 
> >parking lot traffic will allow) is a safety hazard. I disagree 
> >as I am very careful but I can see their point.
> 
> I disagree too.  How many of them have grills on their decks or 
>in their garages that they wheel out?  A grill is just as much a 
>hazard as your burner.  Maybe more, have you ever seen a really 
>good grease fire?  Back in college we had grease fires where the
>flames would be up and thru the exhaust hood.

I agree, as we once rented a condo with a spot of distorted siding
about grill high, but if you can't beat them, join them!  You 
could try finding an old kettle grill, and mounting the kettle 
around your gas cooker, cutting openings as necessary to keep the
hose safe.  Mount it on a wheeled platform with your tank, and you
have the hottest Weber in town! Think how fast you could grill 
burgers, too! 

Seriously, if your cooker is UL approved, there should be no 
safety issues beyond those of a propane grill.  

Cheers!
Rod Schaffter
Hockessin (pronounced HOE-kes-in), DE


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Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 14:15:28 -0600
From: Results <results at win.bright.net>
Subject: A quiet milestone - 20th aniversary

I think we have to agree with Charlie on this point at least... Happy
Birthday to ya... Don't get to feeling to old now...

cheers,

Randy Lee
Viking Brewing Company
Dallas, WI
http://www.vikingbrewing.com


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Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:26:39 -0800
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Mild

 "Ratkiewich, Peter" <PRATKIEWICH at ci.westport.ct.us> wrote:
>
>On my first attempt at using a Munton's kit I apparently made a pretty
>stupid error.  I added too much water to the extract and ended up with
>too much volume for the batch size.  ...Due to my additional  
>gallon of water the OG ended up at 1034, thus making what will be 
>the first Old Conkerwoods light Black Ale....

Don't call it a light beer. The politically correct term in "Mild"

Actually, a mild ale is an english beer with a low gravity, relatively
dark color, and good malt taste. So just tell your buddies you were
trying to make a mild ale...

Bryan Gros    gros at bigfoot.com
Oakland, CA

Organizer, 1999 National Bay Area Brew Off
http://www.dnai.com/~thor/dboard/babo99.htm



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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 16:02:56 -0500
From: David Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com>
Subject: yeast health/does early krausening lead to CAP?

I have started a large experiment comparing storage of yeast in water,
KH2PO4 buffer solution and NaCl solution.  Results will dribble in over the
next 6 months, but one early observation is worth reporting.

One of the yeasts in the experiment is a culture of Wyeast 1968 that I've
been maintaining in sterile DI water for over 4 years now.  (repeat for 4
years: store 6 months in water, culture onto wort agar, transfer into fresh
water)

As one measure of the health of this culture at the beginning of this
latest experiment, I grew it out on RDMA plates, which detect the presence
of respiratory deficient ("petite") mutants.  I counted a total of 721
colonies on 3 RDMA plates, of which only 4 were RD mutant, 0.6% of the
total.  Long term maintenance of the culture under DI water at room
temperature hasn't seemed to cause a RD problem. 

****
Donald Beistle wonders about a correlation between early exposure to
krausening-related beer advertising and an interest in the Classic American
Pilsner movement.  I grew up in Detroit drinking Stroh's...and my first
attempt at a CAP has been fermenting for 2 weeks now.  Draw your own
conclusions.

FWIW, I only vaguely remember Stroh's ads claiming krausening, but
distinctly remember wondering if "fire-brewed, Bohemian style" meant that
they stoked the fire with beatniks.

Dave Whitman, currently 7 degrees, 52 minutes East of Jeff Renner


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---