---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Remembrance of Things Blatz (Vachom)
  AHA's 20th Anniversary (Christophe Frey)
  re: A quiet milestone (Jason Henning)
  lambics, AHA (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Is My Beer Ruined? ("Jeff Hewit")
  MIlds ("Brad McMahon")
  Guinness Hops ("Brad McMahon")
  pLambic hops, Heilemans, brewing again (Jason Henning)
  re: disappointment (Hugh Hoover)
  Re:  240V service, I need a neutral (Seth Goodman)
  Gott Cooler Advice (Brad_Plummer)
  CSA reduction, bottle air (John Simonetta)
  Re: RIMS Questions ("Bridges, Scott")
  Re: Brewholio (Tom Lombardo)
  Gott Coolers ("Jeff Beinhaur")
  help (arlen)
  Aeration and lag times (PCA)" <RPena1 at pca.ml.com>
  RE: Air as a nutrient source? (LaBorde, Ronald)
  re: Quiet Anniversary - 20th (Lee Menegoni)
  Headless Stout Question/Blow-Off?? (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Re: PA Brewpubs ("C and K")
  All Grain Ramblings, Duvel culture, Questions ("Penn, John")
  water storage in yeast (Jim Liddil)
  Lag times ("Houseman, David L")
  headspace air (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
  Source for Gott Coolers ("Boyce, Al")
  Beeston malt summary, pumpkins ("Bryan L. Gros")


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

Michael Jackson is going to discuss Beer on the NPR program
"Public Interest", airing today 12/4 at 1:00 PM EST.  There 
may be more details at the NPR web site, http://www.npr.org.

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 15:29:46 -0600 
From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us>
Subject: Remembrance of Things Blatz

In #2891 Donald muses on the high degree of interest in homebrewing CAPs in
the Upper Midwest--namely Wisconsin and Michigan.  Donald, I believe your
theory to be true; you might even add this "you can take the boy out of
Michigan. . ." tidbit to the positive evidence column.  I've been away from
my home state of Michigan for 13 years now, but my interest in brewing CAPs
stems directly from Carling's sponsorhip of the Tigers (Ken Caminiti:  "No
thanks, I'd rather not make that extra 2 million a year."), the memory of
long summer afternoons drinking beer with an old farmer, a strict Blatz man,
after we'd put the hay up, silly undergrad pilgrimages to Frankenmuth,
pitchers of Schlitz Dark at the Brown Jug in Ann Arbor.  And in Wisconsin. .
 . .well, now you're talking about one of the few places in the country that
has maintained strong regional affinities for locally brewed beers.  

Mike 
New Orleans, LA


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Date: 03 Dec 1998 17:18:12 -0500
From: Christophe Frey <cfrey at ford.com>
Subject: AHA's 20th Anniversary


to: post@hbd.org

Charlie, so good of you to stop by and let us know about the AHA's 20th
anniversary. I mean that. Much has been said about merits and drawbacks of the
AHA, it's current leadership, direction and publication. But most agree that
it has made significant contributions to both the creation of and the
advancement of homebrewing. I have sat quietly on the sidelines when some have
bemoaned an erroneous article or poorly stated fact. But the bottom line is: I
like Zymurgy, the AHA homepage, enjoyed the hell out of the 1997 AHA
convention in Cleveland (we spoke about my barley wine specialty). I also like
Brewing Techniques, Brew Your Own, Malt Advocate. Let's face it. I enjoy just
about anything that promotes this passionate hobby of mine.

Now that I know that you can find your way onto the HBD, welcome, kick back
and have a homebrew. Let me tell you that you have a good man in Brian Rezac.
He is passionate and not afraid of taking on some constructive criticism. As
one of the groups that took part in Big Brew 98, he has recently contacted us
for input on Big Brew 99 (mark May 1st on your calendar). In fact, Rob
Moline's10/20 recipe is so bitching, I am coincidental brewing it again this
Saturday at a local homebrew shop (Brew & Grow) as a demo and the resulting
brew will be served at the proprietors wedding next September.Now I can tell
people about the 20th anniversary as well.

Just thought I would add a friendly, reasoned voice in anticipation that there
may be a few other views represented in tomorrow's HBD.

Sincerely,
Chris P. Frey
Strategic Planning & New Product Development  337-1642
chris.frey-ford at e-mail.com


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Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 22:58:01 GMT
From: huskers at voyager.net (Jason Henning)
Subject: re: A quiet milestone

Congratulations to Charlie and the AHA on their 20th anniversary. It's
too bad the 7000 people who quit the AHA in the last two years won't
know about this historic event.

I'm glad Charlie took time to write HBD and let us know about it.
However, I wonder why it wasn't important enough to mention on their
Beertown web site. I bet it was Zymurgy.

Cheers,
Jason Henning
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
Clawson, Michigan


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Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 18:02:42 -0800
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: lambics, AHA

"J. Matthew Saunders" <saunderm at vt.edu> writes:

> Speaking in the Lambic mode.  I got my mitts on a few bottles of Hanssens
> Oude Gueze bottled in 1991. [snip]
> it was probably the best bottle of Gueze I have EVER had.  A pal
> of mine and I sat sniffing the stuff for at least 10 minutes before even
> sipping.  Not too sour, full of barnyard, fruit esters, leather, moss, and
> the list goes on.  Probably the most complex beer I've tasted.  If any you
> get a chance to have some (assuming you like lambics), don't hesitate.

I was also very excited to lay my hands on 3 bottles each of the Gueuze and
the Kriek.  Tried a Gueuze and was disappointed.  Very little brett
character.  It did have an off flavor that was kind of a medicinal phenolic,
bordering on metallic, that I found objectionable.  Nice complex sourness
with some acetic, but not as much as typical Cantillon.  The store owner
warned me about huge bottle-to-bottle variability, which I would have
anticipated anyway, so we'll see what the other 5 bottles have to offer.

Regarding hops, Matthew's plan sounds great.  I have some '94 Mt. Hood that I
obtained in late '96.  I spread these in a 4" layer on sheets in my garage
for several months (it's 50 lbs of hops).  They've been loosely bagged at
garage temps since then and they still have some good aroma.  Cheesy came and
went while they were on the floor.  Now they smell a bit like hay.  Be
prepared to wait.  A little baking can help you along too.  

See the lambic faq by following my .sig.

********************************************************
Well if that subject line doesn't capture Liddil's attention, what will?

Charlie wrote:

> This Saturday, December 5 is the 20th birthday of the American
> Homebrewers Association and the first issue of Zymurgy.  

What are the plans for the AHA over the next 20 years and how will they be
achieved?
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
http://www.stanford.edu/~jeremybb


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Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 22:10:55 -0500
From: "Jeff Hewit" <jhewit at erols.com>
Subject: Is My Beer Ruined?

I started brewing an ale a few weeks ago, using Yeast Culture Kit Co.
American Ale, which I have used before with great results.  OG was 1.052,
fermentation temperature mid-60's.  I racked it the secondary after 10
days - I would have liked to have done this sooner, but it's a busy time of
year.  SG at racking was only 1.020, so I figured/hoped that racking would
rouse the yeast and get the gravity down a few more points.  I tasted it at
racking, and it was OK in spite of the slightly high SG.  Activity resumed
within a day.  However, it's been in the secondary for almost two weeks, and
it's still bubbling away - about a bubble/second or faster.  This activity
can't be from normal fermentation.  I suspect yeast autolysis, but I've
never experienced this before, so I'm not sure.  I'm afraid to bottle with
this much activity.  Any suggestions.  Should I bottle anyway, and hope I
don't get any grenades?  Should I just wait for as long as it takes to stop?
I have been advised to bring the temperature down to the low 30's if
possible to shock the yeast into submission - any comments on this?  Or
might I have a contamination or other problem that warrants tossing the
batch?  Any suggestions appreciated.

Brew On!

Jeff Hewit
Midlothian, VA



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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:32:40 +0930
From: "Brad McMahon" <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: MIlds

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 12:26:39 -0800
"Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com> wrote:

>Actually, a mild ale is an english beer with a low gravity, 
>relatively dark color, and good malt taste. So just tell your 
>buddies you were trying to make a mild ale...

Not necessarily.
At first milds meant an ale that was served as soon as fermentation 
was complete before an acetic or lactic sourness occured. At the 
start of this century it meant an ale that was less heavily hopped 
than a pale ale. TODAY, it usually is the lowest gravity beer that a 
brewery produces, but there are a few exceptions.
You could still brew a higher gravity ale and call it a mild if you 
want, regardless what the AHA say :-)
Who really cares, as long as we are having fun!

Brad

Brad McMahon
brad at sa.apana.org.au


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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:41:19 +0930
From: "Brad McMahon" <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Guinness Hops

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:03:40 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
From: Julio Canseco <jcanseco at arches.uga.edu>
Subject: Hops in Guiness

Greetings,

Does anyone know which hops are used in Guiness? I am planning to brew
an all grain stout and would like it to be similar to Guiness. I
checked the recipes in the CM3 and found hardly two recipes using the
same hops.

There are 19 versions of Guinness brewed, just to make  your job 
easier!
However Foreign Extra Stout hops "...are a blend of several 
varieties, including Galena, Nugget and Target."
p176, The Ale Trail, R.Protz, 1995, Eric Dobby Publishing

I also read somewhere that Northdown was used a lot by Guinness 
Brewery, can't remember where though.

Brad



Brad McMahon
brad at sa.apana.org.au


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Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 07:19:03 GMT
From: huskers at voyager.net (Jason Henning)
Subject: pLambic hops, Heilemans, brewing again

Hello-

I've been in the process of brewing a plambic since Jim Liddel's BT
articles. That's right, I'm aging hops. I left them in an open baggie,
not a paper bag. Is my beer ruined? Anyway, I suggest that brewers date
their aging hops. ("date their aging hops", I'm sure there a joke in
there)
- ---
As a yute in dear ol' Nebraska, my Norwegian buddy used to steal his
dad's beer. Svin only bought Heilemans. So we'd get 'full krausened' on
Old Style (aka Dog Style). That was before Colorado Koolaid flowed in to
the Cornhusker state. Those were the dazes.
- ---
I brewed my first batch of beer since moving to Detroit. I put it in my
freezer (outside) with a heater (on a controller) thinking it would be
cold enough to keep the temperature steady. Next morning, the temp was
at 70. Then I checked an hour later and it was at 75. I grabbed my other
controller and got the freezer back online. With the heater, the
freezer, and a fan, that baby is in a narrow range of 65-68.

I was unaware of just how much heat is generated by fermention. I wonder
if I could heat my house if...
- ---
This batch was a no sparge batch. I was pretty disappointed with the
whole process. I dropped from my usual 75% to 40%. I expected a drop in
efficiency. I assumed it would be about 55% but 40% really hurt my
feelings. 20 pounds of grain for less than 5 gallons of 1.056 beer.

I also had some [no] sparge trouble. I got a lot of particles in the run
off about half way through. I use a false bottom. I am at a loss to
understand why I got particles after it had ran clear. Anyone else have
problems like this.

I doubt I'll do much no sparge brewing because of the sparging trouble
and the dismal efficiency. At least for now.
- ---
No sparge is nice because you don't have to worry about heating sparge
water. No need for a three tier stand, sparge tank, or a sparging
manifold. Might be a good way to get started all grain brewing since it
eliminates quite a bit of the hassles.

Cheers,
Jason Henning
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
Clawson, Michigan


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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 00:05:58 -0800
From: Hugh.Hoover at software.com (Hugh Hoover)
Subject: re: disappointment

>  disappointment (Paul Mahoney)
>I am greatly disappointed in all of you.  You have failed, collectively and
> individually!
>      In the Nov. 28, 1998 edition of "The Economist" it is reported that 
>the Czechs just cannot get enough beer.  Retail sales per person for 1997 
>in the Czech Republic topped 179.5 litres (almost 1/2 litre per day).  
<snip>
> Paul Mahoney

Wrong interpretation of the data!
Clearly, Homebrewing in the US is now SO successful that it's depressing our
commercial market by over 50% !-)






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Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 06:59:13 -0500
From: Seth Goodman <sethgoodman at 110.net>
Subject: Re:  240V service, I need a neutral

Sorry about continuing this thread, I know some of you think this list
is supposed to be about homebrewing. ;-) However, this  seems
important enough to me to warrant the extra on-list post:


In HBD #2892,  "Dana H. Edgell" <edgell at far-tech.com> wrote:


> One suggestion (sorry I don't have the name at work) was to use one hot
> line from the 240V water heater supply and the neutral from the wall plug
> (connected trough a GFCI of course). This would put double the current on
> that neutral (up to 30 amp). As the neutral doesn't go through the breaker
> (only the hot does) this wouldn't trip the 15 amp breaker.
>
> *IF* the gauge of the return wire is sufficient to handle 30 amps (12
> gauge? I will look it up and check the wire) does this sound safe?
>
> As mentioned above, when brewing I will turn off the hot water heater and
> the other regular 120V line has only the master bedroom (a clock only) on
> it.
>

Please don't do things like this, for two reasons.

1) Non-standard wiring methods are *explicitly* forbidden by the
National Electrical Code (Section 300-3, et. al., in the '93 NEC,
newly released '99 code probably identical).  This is to protect the
*next* guy who works on your wiring - even though I'm sure you would
remove all this non-standard wiring when you move.

2) If, Heaven Forbid, there were a fire in your home, and it was
determined by the Fire Marshall to be an electrical fire, and the Fire
Marshall found the non-standard wiring in your garage (and even if
that wiring had *nothing* to do with the fire), your insurance company
might use that as a pretext to void your homeowner's insurance, and
pay you _nothing_.

Sorry to be a wet blanket.

Have you asked an electrician for a quote with the "two cases of
homebrew when you're done" discount? :-)

Cheers,

Seth




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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:06:12 -0600
From: Brad_Plummer at crow.bmc.com
Subject: Gott Cooler Advice

Ian Forbes wrote:
>Does anyone know where Gott can be found this time of year?
>While I am on the subject, I also wonder if a 5 gallon or 10
>gallon cooler is better.  I plan on doing 5 gallon batches.

Hi, Ian.  I have the 10-gal Gott and wouldn't trade it for the world.  
Actually, I have two of them.  I use one with a Phil's Phalse Bottom 
and the other is my HLT (Hot Liquor Tank).  Using a 10-gal Gott will 
allow you to do some higher-gravity beers (more grain).  I don't know 
what a 5-gal Gott sells for but I think the additional cost for the 
10-gal is very justified.  It just gives you more options.

I just went out to the Rubbermaid web site but couldn't find any info 
on the Gott.  I submitted a question about them and would assume a 
response will follow.  You might want to do the same thing.  
www.rubbermaid.com

Hope this helps,

Brad Plummer
Georgetown, Texas

** Brewing, Shooting, Motorcycling.        **
** My wife thinks I have too many hobbies. **
** Funny. All my girlfriends think so too. **
** Just kidding, dear.  No, really.  OUCH! **



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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:59:29 -0500
From: John_Simonetta at ittsheraton.com (John Simonetta)
Subject: CSA reduction, bottle air

     Andy Milder writes:
     
     Is Prof. Fix making the assumption (unstated, I think) that one is 
     using a counter-pressure bottle filler?
     With this much air and storage at room temperature in order to 
     carbonate, I get the feeling from this article that my beer is always 
     oxidized by the time it's ready to drink!
     
     Andy, after reading the BT article by Fix, I came to similar 
     conclusions.  I believe he is assuming a counter-pressure bottle 
     filler is being used.
     
     I do not use a counter-pressure filler either, and the most frequent 
     comment I receive from judges at competitions is oxidation, no matter 
     how close to competition time that I bottle.  I must conclude from the 
     article that unless I use a counter-pressure filler, my beer will 
     always be oxidized within days after bottling.
     
     Comments from the collective?
     
     Thanks,
     
     John Simonetta
     Randolph, MA
     20 minutes South of Boston


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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:23:40 -0500 
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: Re: RIMS Questions



>Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 10:26:34 -0800
>From: "RANDY ERICKSON" <RANDYE at mid.org>
>Subject: RIMS Questions --- summary
>
>A while back I asked for advice on RIMS false bottom designs,
>with particular emphasis on those suitable for a GOTT that do not
>require a lot of different parts.
snip

>FWIW, no-one responded that they use an EasyMasher with
>RIMS.  I was kind of hoping someone would.

Well, since you specifically asked, I do.  Actually, it's a homemade
version, but pretty close to the original.  I've used it for several years
(even before I converted to RIMS) with no problems.  Never a stuck sparge,
even with unmalted wheat.  It seems to work fine in conjunction with the
pump.  Let me know if you have any specific questions about it.

Scott

Brewing in Columbia, SC
(maybe the new home of Lou Holtz.....)





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Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 07:27:58 -0600
From: toml at ednet.rvc.cc.il.us (Tom Lombardo)
Subject: Re: Brewholio

Scotrat writes (among other things):
>The Ego-ridden-swollen-headed-weazle Charlie "You Should All Kiss my ass
>for
>what I have done for you all... (God I am Great)" Papazian 

Scott,

On your next post, I'd suggest going easy on the boiling hops.  This one
turned out too bitter for the style.

Tom (in Rockford, IL)



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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:57:21 -0500
From: "Jeff Beinhaur" <beinhaur at email.msn.com>
Subject: Gott Coolers

Ian Forbes asked about where to locate Gott coolers. I ordered a complete
two cooler (RubberMaid) setup from HomeBrew Adventures through the net. They
are located at http://www.homebrewadventures.com/

They can set them up with sparge arm, false bottom, etc., etc.......
No affiliation, happy customer, yada, yada, yada......

Jeff Beinhaur, Camp Hill, PA
Home of the Yellow Breeches Brewery





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Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 08:34:42 -0600
From: arlen <arlen at spacestar.net>
Subject: help

hello fellow beer drinkers
just moved from glacier park montana where you could buy brewing
supplies to an area  where they sell nothing.........
i live about an hour west of the twin cites in wisconsin.
i need to find a source to buy supplies to start brewing again........
need  also to find a source where i can get hops that are not in the
shape of
rabbit pellets.........and real malt from 50 gallon drums..........

thank you    arlen at spacestar.net



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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:37:34 -0500 
From: "Pena, Roland (PCA)" <RPena1 at pca.ml.com>
Subject: Aeration and lag times

I don't know if this has already been covered in previous posts, so bear
with me.

I was force-carbonating a 3-gallon corny keg last weekend for a party.  You
know the routine -- crank up the pressure and shake-shake-shake.  During the
project, I looked over at my 10-gallon corny keg and wondered if I could
apply the same concepts to force-aerating wort.  For example:  

Take my 8-gallon batch, decant it into the corny keg after the boil.  
Crank up the pressure using compressed air.  
Shake-shake-shake.  
Pump the beer into a fermenter.

This will only work if you have a compressor and inline air filter (so you
don't get compressor spooge in the beer).  I really haven't had a problem
with lag times or beer quality, but it's something I'm going to try.

I'll keep the board posted...

Roland

PS - Comments to 'roland at ml.com'  Flames to "Dave Null"


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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:44:29 -0600 
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Air as a nutrient source?

>>>>
From: Bob.Sutton at fluordaniel.com

Ron

Your speaker is misinformed. Soluble gaseous nitrogen (from air) provides no
nutrient value. Unlike soybeans, brewing yeast is unable to "fix" free
nitrogen
from solution. Instead, nitrogen is taken up in organic form.
<<<<

>From the number of similar replies, it sure sounds like he is.

Our club has been invited to use the 7 barrel brewing equipment at the
brewpub.  It is just sitting there idle.  It sounds like a great opportunity
for the club.  We will be brewing for Abita, with the beer to be supplied to
the brewpub taps.  We will be working for Abita, under their license.  We
are planning on a single test brew, and if things go well we may do it on a
somewhat regular schedule.  Abita has offered to train us and supply all
grain and hops, etc.

Anyhow, I will be sure to bring the subject up again, and find out what he
was thinking.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:11:50 -0500
From: Lee Menegoni <Lee.Menegoni at digital.com>
Subject: re: Quiet Anniversary - 20th


Charlie :
I will toast too.  
To what a lucky SOB you are for milking us all these years and having an
organization that has done little to advance home brewing.

What can you list as accomplishments?
What are the organizations goals going forward?
What goals were met over the last 20 years? 


Lee Menegoni



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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:26:01 -0500 (EST)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Headless Stout Question/Blow-Off??


Hi All. After seeing the lengthy rant by Scott Abene in the last HBD I can
only hope I may squeeze this question in between all the flames that will
probably ensue!

Here's my question: Just made a simple all-grain stout. Base was 2-row
with 1# roasted barley, 1# flaked barley and 1/2# cara-pils. Except for
the roast, all were mashed together in a single 65degC step x 90 min.
Yeast was 1084. OG was a bit low at about 1.034, FG was 1.005 which made
me happy since I was going for a dry stout. The problem is that there is
virtually NO HEAD to the final beer which surprised me greatly given the
use of the # of flaked barley. I have always gotten good heading in the
past whenever I've used flaked  *wheat* but I thought one gets the same
effect from flaked barley - is this not the case??

TO BLOW OR NOT TO BLOW - THAT IS THE QUESTION 
(No Monica jokes, please!)

There's another factor here that I'd like to see some discussion on. I had
filled my glass carboy fermentor quite full and pitched a LOT of yeast so
I had LOTS of activity and therefore a fair amount of blow-off (used a
blow-off tube) about 4-5 cups blow-off collected in total. Could this
amount of blow-off have taken much of the head-forming/head-retaining
compounds with it?? Through the reading I've done I believe the consensus
is that the loss of the foaming blow-off material does not (significantly)
reduce the head-forming ability of the final beer. This has always seemed
counter-intuitive to me. 

Also I am wondering what is the general consensus
on the use of blowing-off is. It seems that the reviews are mixed - some
sources say it is *essential* in that it helps to remove fusel alcohols
(though why these would prefferentially be collecting up near the top is a
mystery to me) and insoluble hop resins in the krausen head which one
wants to eliminate before they have a chance to drop back into the beer
when the krausen falls. While it does seem that there are plenty of these
sticky "resins" collecting up there it also seems to me that 1) they tend
to stick to the top of the carboy and stay up there when the krausen falls
and 2) that if they are insoluble to begin with it shouldn't matter if
they fall back down as they will not go into solution (unless they do so
slowly over time or as the % alcohol increases?). It also seems to me that
if you are using a truly "top-cropping" ale yeast you'll be blowing off a
fair amount of your active yeast which will be counter-productive.

I have made beers where I had lots of blow-off and others where I've
had none and haven't detected any major off-flavors or harshness that I
could pin specifically on the beers that weren't blown off. So what's the
collective wisdom (an oxymoron?) on this subject??

Enquiring Minds Want To Know!

=Alan 
_____________________________________________________________________
"Graduate school is the snooze button on the alarm clock of life."
	
	-Jim Squire


 -Alan Meeker
Johns Hopkins Hospital
Dept. of Urology

(410) 614-4974
__________________________________________________________________





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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:30:48 -0800
From: "C and K" <Cuckold at cornerpub.com>
Subject: Re: PA Brewpubs

Bob inquires:

<Here in Pennsylvania we are seeing a number of small breweries 
<falling by the wayside....

Here in Washington State, as I suspect elsewhere, the big boys are getting
into the game.  You can go into most any store, and there is Michelob (aka
Bud) Heffeweissen for $3.80 a sixpack.  Other styles available, too.  I
would imagine they are taking a loss, trying to strangle our microbrew
industry.

Chris
Seldom correct...but never without doubt


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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:46:39 -0500 
From: "Penn, John" <John.Penn at jhuapl.edu>
Subject: All Grain Ramblings, Duvel culture, Questions

	I always get a little chuckle out of those posts that say all
grain only takes a few more hours (8?) why doesn't everyone make the
switch.  Well with two 3-4 yr old boys my brewing sessions usually start
at 9PM and go for a couple of hours!  Time?  What's that?  I've been
interested in all grain but don't expect to have the time very often,
mostly I'll stick to extract.  I also try to brew two batches at once so
that I limit my brewing to about once a month.  

Mill:   Well I wanted to use my Gott cooler for a second time and my
brand new Corona Mill.  Thanks for the recent advice on adjusting
Coronas, there are no instructions on adjusting the Mill.  I tried the
"tighten all the way then back off 1/2 - 1 turn."  One turn seemed about
right and then I tried maybe an 1/8 turn more backoff since I wasn't
sure what the grains should look like.  They looked more like Grits than
the precrushed stuff I usually get from the homebrew store.  No sparge
problems though with the "grits".  At any rate I crushed about 10# of
grain (5# pale, 1.5# wheat, and 3.5# of 2 or 6-row).  The grains were
given to me by a friend who didn't have time to brew so I just made up
my own recipe.  I also added 1/2# of 90L German crystal malt to the
kettle and used the hot sparge outflow to steep the crystal.  

Mash:    My brewing consisted of about 20-30 minutes of crushing the
malt the night before, getting up early to heat 3 gallons of water for
mashing, and doing an ALL DAY MASH.  My initial temp with about 3.1
gallons of water was about 165F and when I added the grains it seemed to
drop to 150F which I think was probably just a low reading at the top of
the Gott cooler, I was expecting a little warmer.  Left it to mash all
day and close to brewing time it was still 142F!!!  Wow, that Gott works
really well I was worried about it cooling off much more than that.

Sparge:   I cheat a little... Well, the wife was at a play so I boiled
some water and did a sparge while the kids played a little and had some
cookies ~7PM.   That way when the kids were in bed and at my usual 9PM
start I already had the sparge done.  I'm still on the stove so I
collected about 4 gallons of about 1.057-60 in a 5 gallon pot and
another 1.5 gallon of about 1.020 in my 4 gallon pot for a second batch
of extract based beer.  I boiled the batch down from 4 gallons to about
3.5 gallons but then added water back to get about 4.5 gallons in the
low 50s gravity.  

Boil/Yeast:  The rest of the all grain batch went as usual and by 11PM I
was done with both the extract batch and the all grain batch and
cleanup.  I used the Duvel starter that I tried a month ago, starting
with the 11 oz bottle, stepped up to 1/2 gallon, then poured off a quart
and added another 1/2 gallon of fresh wort.  Both batches started the
next morning using the Duvel starter but they are going relatively
slowly, maybe 1 bubble per 5 secs instead of 1 bubble/sec.  I thought
maybe the yeast thought 68F was too cool since my usual ale yeasts are
much faster.  I looked at Rajotte's Belgian book again last night on
yeasts and he mentioned that secondary yeasts added at bottling time
tend to be slow starters.  Maybe I've got just the bottling yeast in my
Duvel.  Anyone know for sure about this yeast?  I guess for now it seems
to be fermenting even if it seems slow so I'll just give it a few weeks
before bottling. 

  I still don't have a good bulkhead connection to my Gott cooler, just
a small hose jammed into a cutoff water spigot and a clamp to control
flow.  I need to work on improving that.  I spent some time at the
hardware store but couldn't find a good system.  My rectangle of copper
tubing seems to work well with no sparge problems even though I thought
my holes were too big.  Any help here on bulkhead fixtures?
   Thanks for all the wonderful inputs on the HBD and especially Karl
and Pat for keeping the HBD going.  As for me, I thank Charlie Papazian
for his book that got me started.  Though I think Al K's Homebrewing I
book is much better and more thorough for those looking for a good
starting book.
  John Penn


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Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:08:27 +0000
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu>
Subject: water storage in yeast

- --On Tuesday, November 24, 1998, 5:51 PM -0800 Hugh Hoover
<Hugh.Hoover at software.com> wrote:
> seems a bit flawed... especially since the positive control
> didn't show any results...

I'm replying to this and ccing the HBD because I thought it was of general
interest and Hugh agreed.  Indeed the positive controls showed no growth
and even now they show no growth even upon retesting. Does this mean the
media won't support growth?  Highly unlikely since these same bottles of
media were used to test mammalian cell culture media and the positive
controls grew microorganisms.  In this case we cough directly into the
growth media.  But you'd be surprised at the incidence of positive tests
due to operator (i.e. grad student) error even when working in a class
2/Type A laminar flow hood.

> 
> wouldn't it make more sense to store the tubes for 2-4 days
> (weeks?) prior to inoculating the culture media?  That way
> the relative ability of the storage media to support growth
> could be better evaluated.  

Maybe.  First off the reason for this testing was to evaluate whether my
pompous statement about buffer promoting growth better than water was true
in the specific use of storing yeast.  If microorganisms end up in the
water or buffer and then they are transferred to the YM and MRS (both very
rich growth media) then they should reproduce.  We should not have to wait.
But as a follow up I  still had all the tubes when you sent me this e-mail.
So I retested all the samples I had.  It's been something like 10 days and
again none of the samples or controls are showing any growth. 

>I'd think 2 hours is too short
> to get much growth.  Also, since the yeast would be stored
> in the media for months, there'd be plenty of opportunity
> for tiny amounts of bacteria to grow, esp. if phosphate
> is a nutrient or growth enhancer.

But it does not matter.  If bacteria fell into the water or buffer, they
would in theory not die in the two hour time frame.  So then when a sample
is put into rich growth media the microorganisms should thrive.  And again
further testing failed to show positive growth.  

> 
> Also - wouldn't it make more sense to use viable bacterial
> cultures for the positive controls?  inoculate w/ aceto
> or lacto bacteria (or even the dreaded pediococcus ;-).

No.  Again the reason for doing this test was to test, in general, how well
thsi technique works and is it subject to contamination.  Let's look at
this in a real world situation.  I choose the 12 X 75 mm tubes because they
represent a tube size that would likely be used by those storing yeast in
water or buffer.  And I then left them out for two hours to represent a
worse case scenario.  Typically if one were storing yeast in water the tube
would only be open for a matter of seconds.  I'll point out though that
this testing was done in a lab.  But it is a far from clean lab, we do cell
culture, but we also do various chromatography work, animal studies,
molecular biology stuff, and I have my running stuff hanging in here also.
I also placed the tubes in areas under ventilation vents.  

So I wanted this to be a test that some what represented a real world
situation, not some ideal that 99% of you will never achieve.  Now this is
a single study, done in one place.  I have not a study with tubes that
contain yeast and are then checked for contamination.  This requires adding
various combinations of antibiotics and antifungals to test all the
permutations.  I'll get right on it. :-)  But I think in general (no this
isn't a PhD defense meeting so I'll go out on a limb and make a few leaps
of faith)   that this shows that neither water nor buffer are very good
growth media alone.  And that one can safely do a certain amount of culture
work with out risk of cross contamination provided one is careful and uses
good techniques.  Yes I've been doing this stuff for years.  I think it
shows that water or buffer stored offer reasonable alternatives to petri
dishes or slants for the average person.  500 grams of USP grade pottasium
phosphate monobasic can be had for ~$30.  This is enough to make alot of 2%
solution.  I have often wondered why some enterprising induhvidual does not
distribute yeast cultures in water or buffer.  A homebrew shop could have
100 tubes in a very small space.  If one used polypropylene tubes of 1.5 ml
capacity this would work well.  All the brewer would have to do is invert
the tube a few time to suspend the yeast, wipe of the tube with 70%
isopropyl and pour the contents into 100 ml of wort.  And then step up
again.  One could even make kits that include the tube of yeast and a 50 ml
tube of sterile media.  In theory one could have 10 strains of yeast on
hand in a very small box.  And there would be less waste since the storage
time for these would in theory be longer than that for things like wyeast
or white labs since people would know stepping up would be required.

WRT to water vs buffer experiments still need to be done to look a the
kinetics of the loss of viability using tissue culture/endotoxin free water
and tissue culture grade buffers.  


> From: "RANDY ERICKSON" <RANDYE at mid.org>
> Subject: RIMS Questions --- summary
> 
> A while back I asked for advice on RIMS false bottom designs,
> with particular emphasis on those suitable for a GOTT that do not
> require a lot of different parts.

I am using a phils phalsebottom in my RIMS unit.  I am using a stainless
steel pot not a gott.  I took a silicone stopper and plug the hole in the
center and just use the thing as a true false bottom with a drain
underneath.  I also put a piece of tubing around the edge to act as a
gasket to make sure it stays in place.  and I put some stainless bolts into
it near the center to keep it from collapsing so much.  It works OK, but I
am looking at getting some a piece of perf steel from Small Parts that has
more open area, even though I have not had any problems so far.  I've only
used my RIMS 4 times. 


> Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

>From the hbd header.  Now let's examine this statement.  If one has an
obsession then this is indicative of Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD).
One can then live with it or go to therapy and there are also various
medication available to treat this (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors
for example, Prozac, Paxil).  So If one has an obsession and is "late for
therapy" then this indicates to me that one is trying to deal with their
obsession and overcome it.  Or does this mean that one is late for therapy
because they are involved with their obsession?



> Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 10:04:13 -0600
> From: ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO <skotrat at wwa.com>
> Subject: RE: A quiet milestone
> 
> The Ego-ridden-swollen-headed-weazle Charlie "You Should All Kiss my ass
> for what I have done for you all... (God I am Great)" Papazian writes:

What a breath of fresh air.  And look at the AHA now.  Run by two people
and an adhoc editor for the magazine.  But despite this the tow guys in
charge of the AHA are trying their best despite "The More I know About
Cathy Ewing, The More The AHA SUCKS".  What a great line.

Jim Liddil Mentally no where near anyone










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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:23:52 -0500 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Lag times

John Varaday's data about the use of Air, O2, Shaking and Spray methods
of getting O2 into solution is interesting.  But I don't know if one can
draw a conclusion about whether the longer/shorter lag times are
beneficial or not from this.  The point is to get yeast growth and
activity as quickly as possible to beat the other beasties to the
goodies.  Yeast growth and reproduction is greatest in the presence of
O2 and other required nutrients.  Should yeast be placed into a wort
medium that was not conducive to growth but rather more quickly to
fermentation, it would seem that you might recognize the evidence of
feremenation (bubbles out the air lock) sooner with less OK than with a
much higher concentration of O2.  But because of the smaller volume of
yeast be in worse shape in terms of being in competition with other
yeasts and bacteria than the samples with the higher O2, rapidly growing
brewers yeast colony and less resulting CO2 early.   I'm sure that the
biochemists on-line can provide more detail but the logic seems to be in
favor of greater yeast growth, not necessarily which start producing CO2
the soonest.

Dave Houseman


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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:20:47 -0500 
From: "Bayer, Mark A (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
Subject: headspace air

collective homebrew conscience:

andrew wrote in and asked about headspace air for bottle conditioned beers,
specifically, how to "cap on foam" if you're not counterpressure bottling
from a pressure vessel.

good question.  there are a number of ideas on how to reduce air in the
headspace.  dave miller has suggested in at least one of his books that you
leave absolute minimal headspace by filling the bottle to nearly full.  i've
done this accidentally (and on purpose), and it seems like the carbonation
of those bottles takes a really long time, and the final level of
carbonation doesn't get as high as other bottles from the same batch that
had 1/2 to 3/4 inch of headspace.

one other method that gets suggested is to rest the bottlecaps on the
bottles for an hour, without crimping them, and during this time the yeast
will create co2 and dilute the air in the headspace.  i've done this also,
but i have no idea if it really works.  maybe some of the yeast experts
could comment on this?  does yeast really get going right away and produce
enough co2 to fill the headspace?

now here's a story about how i was able to cap on foam with a bottle
conditioned beer:  i brewed and briefly lagered (~3 weeks) a german pilsner
a couple years ago, and it was lagered in a carboy in the freezer at 54
- -->32 deg f.  when it came time to bottle, i didn't let the beer warm up to
room temperature before i put the beer in the bottling bucket and added the
sugar.  during the transfer from carboy to bucket, a lot of co2 came out of
the beer, due to the temperature rise.  the same thing happened while
filling the bottles - lots of co2 and some foam.  i was able to "cap on
foam" even though i was not bottling from a pressure vessel.  the beer
turned out fine (dave miller gave it a 39 - 2nd place at stl hb comp), maybe
a little too carbonated.  i didn't think to reduce the amount of priming
sugar due to the larger amount of co2 in solution at the lower temperature.
i have never repeated this method on purpose, but i suspect it would be hard
to do with an ale yeast.  the reason there was lots of co2 in the beer at 32
deg f was because the lager yeast had continued to ferment as the
temperature was dropped from 54 down to 32.  you'd likely never be able to
achieve this with an ale yeast, since it would quit working and stop
producing co2 at a much higher temp.  (plus why would you lager an ale,
excluding the german styles?)  i think also you have to make sure to start
ramping the temperature down while there is still some fermentable extract
in the beer.  how you determine that is... well, it's up to you.  

brew hard,

mark bayer
(great mills, md)


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Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:52:54 -0600 
From: "Boyce, Al" <Al.Boyce at msp.inacomps.com>
Subject: Source for Gott Coolers

Ian Forbes asked where you can get Gott coolers from during the "off"
season.  Rubbermaid Online sells them for $49..99.  Pricey, but available.
Not an endorsement, just a satisfied customer, yada yada yada....

Even if you are only going to brew 5-gallon batches, I would strongly
recommend the 10-gallon Gott.  Depending on the gravity of beer you tend to
brew, your grain bill+water could easily overflow the 5-gallon model. Here
is the URL for the 10-gallon model:

http://www.rubbermaid.com/ets/showpage.cgi?template=/_templates/hpd/hpd-1.ht
m&productTable=/_private/hpd/hpd.txt&productkey=a1610

 - Al Boyce
Old Kitchen Rug Brewery in St.Louis Park, Minnesota - God knows how far from
Jeff Renner



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Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 11:57:37 -0800
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Beeston malt summary, pumpkins

Last week I asked about experience with Beeston malts.

I got a few replies. One person mentioned that this malt
tends to clump during mashin, and great diligence is 
needed to get it mixed thoroughly. This problem sounds
like what people have said about Crisp Maris Otter malts,
so perhaps Beeston uses Maris Otter as well.

Someone else mentioned that his Beeston ales tended to
be more cloudy than his Briess ales. I'll look for this,
but I don't care that much.

Thanks to all.

******
"Colin DuBois" <cdubois at ptd.net> wrote:
>Brewing on the Saturday after Turkey day puts me a little late on the
>pumpkin ale this year.  I have had no luck in finding a standard to use in
>determining the amount of fermentables pumpkin adds to the brew.  I have
>probably made it harder to calculate by adding the juice to the boil and not
>the pumpkin itself.  I steamed 18lbs of pumpkin and then ran it through a
>squeezo extracting 2 gallons of juice.  I then added the juice to the boil
>of an all-grain batch.  

Any fermentables from pumpkin would be in the starch. You would need
to mash this starch with your barley.
Adding pumpkin juice to your boil will possibly add some pumpkin
flavor and some unfermentable starch. See how it comes out, but next
year, add the juice (or the pumpkin mush) to the mash.

Good luck.

Bryan Gros    mailto:gros at bigfoot.com
Oakland, CA

Organizer, 1999 National Bay Area Brew Off
http://www.dnai.com/~thor/dboard/babo99.htm



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---