---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re:CO2 levels dependent on amount of headspace (ThomasM923)
  Oxidation (William Frazier)
  Storing Vials of Yeast/Distilled Water ("J.Kish")
  efficiency was re: Gott/Rubbermaid Coolers (John_E_Schnupp)
  D-rest and keggers/bottlers (Ted McIrvine)
  Oud Bruin (Ted McIrvine)
  AHA (Brent Dowell)
  Zima ("Richard Scott")
  Grain Mill ("Sandy Macmillan")
  Slamming (Ken Houtz)
  Beer in the CO2 Regulator problem ("Richard Scott")
  Slamming v. Discourse (Wyorich)
  coil pressure drop equation clarification ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Iodophor (Jason.Gorman)
  D-rest and keggers/bottlers (Rod Prather)
  Re:  Help my marriage ("J. Matthew Saunders")
  Re: Oxidation (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Ballantine IPA (Jeff Renner)
  Oud Bruin (Nathan Kanous)
  rodenbach/hannsens/vial storage (Jim Liddil)
  Re: air/ O2 ("Brian Dixon")
  Protein Rest is Dead (Kyle_Druey)
  Re: cap on foam / headspace ("Brian Dixon")
  Re: Woodruff, Gelatine ("Houseman, David L")
  Labic storage info-mercial from Vanberg & De Wulf ("Rob Jones")
  re: storing stored yeast (Rod Schaffter)
  HBD server and "advanced" mailers... (pbabcock)
  storing vials upright (David Whitman)
  reply to: storing stored yeast HBD#2895 (Herbert Bresler)
  Copper Salts (Al Korzonas)
  Diacetyl rest (Al Korzonas)
  temperature controller (Jon Sandlin)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 01:02:16 EST
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: Re:CO2 levels dependent on amount of headspace

George De Piro wrote:
"While I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, the overfilled
bottle(s?)
contained much less CO2 then the other two bottles (almost HALF)."

I wrote:
"As a matter of fact, it seems to me that a bottle with more headspace 
would have a bit less CO2 dissolved into the beer, due to the fact that there
is more of the total CO2 in the headspace."

O.K., it looks like I could be wrong...
But why would this happen??? Please tell me, someone! It just doesn't make
sense to me.

befuddled in the Garden State,
Thomas Murray


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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 06:16:11 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Oxidation

Several posts lately concern oxidation of beer by air left in the headspace
during bottling.  Does anyone go to the trouble of giving each bottle a shot
of CO2 before placing the cap?  I make wine as well as beer and its SOP to
flush wine bottles with CO2 prior to filling.

        Bill Frazier
        Briarpatch Brewing
        Johnson County, Kansas



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Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 19:16:39 -0800
From: "J.Kish" <jjkish at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Storing Vials of Yeast/Distilled Water

Scott Murman,
    To store my yeast, and mushroom cultures in sterile
distilled water, I'm using 6mL dram vials with screw caps.
  I got a hold of a nice plastic box with a lid similar to a
small tool box. I lined it with soft foam latex, about 2 inches
deep.  I used a soldering iron with a tip of similar diameter
as the vials, and melted round slots in the foam.
  I made sure that I didn't breath the smoke. It can be very
deadly!  I used a fan, outdoors, to blow away the smoke.
 The culture collection looks very neat.  Each one is marked
with a number on the cap, with an index inside the box lid.
There are enough vials so I can have three vials of each
culture. The collection is stored on the bookshelf. ;~)
     Joe Kish





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Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 22:28:15 -0800
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: efficiency was re: Gott/Rubbermaid Coolers

>certainly get more than 10 gallons of runoff.  Also the poster on
>no-sparge and getting a mere 40% efficiency, you didn't mention how
>thick your mash was.  Was it 1.25qt/# or what?  I've been using 0.5qt/#
>as just the residual water left in the grains so if you do a no-sparge
>you will probably see a big difference in efficiency if your mash varies
>from a mere 1qt/# versus 2qt/#.  At 1qt/# you are already leaving half
>of your extracted sugar in the residual water left in the grains.  As

So are you saying that a thicker or thinner mash will help improve
efficiency?  Your post is leaving me a little confused.  First you say
you use .5 qt/lb and then you allude to 2 qt/lb.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 13:32:27 -0800
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: D-rest and keggers/bottlers

I generally keg less complex beers (and less alcoholic beers too since I
don't want the uniniated to get trashed on something strong at a party)
and bottle anything lambic and everything over 60 OG.

Last year I made a Munich Helles, kegging half of it and bottling the
other half.  The kegged portion was delicious, and was consumed with
great gusto.  The bottled portion (primed with corn sugar) smelt
absolutely awful for 2-3 months and then tasted almost as good as the
kegged beer.  I don't remember whether I used Bavarian or Munich yeast,
and frankly don't know if the temporary taste was diacetyl or something
from the yeast.  Any guesses?

Ted
> 
> Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 08:51:37 -0500
> From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
> Subject: D-rest and keggers/bottlers
> 
> Anyone have any experience that would validate/invalidate this idea? Can
> anyone dig around in their notes and see if they ever brewed a lager (with
> a yeast that is a known diacetyl producer), didn't do a D-rest, bottle
> conditioned half the batch and kegged the other half? Any diacetyl
> differences?
> 
> Dan Cole
> Roanoke, VA
> Star City Brewers' Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity/


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Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 13:47:40 -0800
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Oud Bruin

This is a hard one... Rodenbach uses at least two different yeasts,
including a lager yeast for bottling and getting the sourness right is
tricky because it isn't as sour as Cantillon and our other favorite
horse blanket ales.

I use equal portions of Belgian Wheat, Belgian Munich, and Belgian Pils
Malt.  (3 lbs of each for a 6 gallon batch --- shooting for about 0.052
OG).  Unlike those who bake hops, I deliberately aged a pound of Saaz
and a pound of Goldings for about 2 years in open bags.  I'd use about 3
ozs of these very stale hops --- lacking this use a modest quantity of
low-alpha hops so that you don't knock out the lambic.

I mash around 155 with a big sparge reaching high temperatures (180-185
F),  and ferment the primary with any Belgian yeast.  The secondary uses
a wild yeast, and shouldn't be disturbed until the pellicle falls apart
on its own.  If you are making Rodenbach Grand Cru, adding 5-6 lbs.
cherries in the secondary or 2 oz. cherry extract with a 1/2 tsp of
almond extract at bottling.

Alas, I don't have the oaken barrel, so I use oak chips.  

Ted
> 
> Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 14:31:16 -0700
> From: Christopher "R." Hebert <CRH at ny.rfny.rflaw.com>
> Subject: Oud Bruin
> 
> I've got the patience, I've got the time, and I have the Oak Barrel.  What I
> don't have, however, is a good recipe for Oud Bruin/Rodenbach.
> Nothing in Cat's Meow and Phllip Seitz doesn't seem to be around the
> HBD these days.  So, last resort, does anyone out there have a darn
> good recipe that they'll share with me.


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Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 07:27:31 GMT
From: bdowell at crl.com (Brent Dowell)
Subject: AHA

Well,
I haven't really seen this sentiment posted yet so here's my
2 cents.  It does surprise me that the folks who publish
Zymurgy are a non-profit organization.  Frankly, I never
looked at the AHA as being a member but as getting a
jsubscriptions to a magazine.  Yes, the magazine is not all
it could be.  (Did the latest bilge pump RIMS 'tip' look
suspect to anyone else?).  I look at the magazines as being
BYO as beginner, Zymurgy as intermediate and BT as advanced.
As such I subscribe to both Zym and BT.  So I pay my
subscriptions and enjoy the magazines, although I find BT To
usually be much more interesting, accurate and useful.
Frankly, the only thing I prefer Zym to BT for is the
recipes that it publishes.

Quite frankly, I'm pretty darn jealous of the job that
Charlie has.  He makes good bucks and still seems to manage
keeping brewing as a hobby.  

Let me also say that on a daily basis, I find the HBD to be
much more worthwhile and entertaining than either Zym or BT.
Although I don't post a whole lot, I find it really
interesting to be reading the magazines and see articles
written by the esteemed members of the HBD.  Whats even more
amazing is the amount of information that these same
knowledgable folks pass out here every single day.Thanks
again o mighty members of the HBD and special kudos to the
janitors.  I believe that it is quite obvious that without
the Internet and the HBD, homebrewing would not be where it
is today, whether or not the other brew rags ever existed.

Sincerely,

- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Better living and Lower Productivity 
through the use of Technology

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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:31:25 -0600
From: "Richard Scott" <rscott57 at flash.net>
Subject: Zima

Rod Prather (HOMEBREW Digest #2895) asked why would you want to make Zima?

I threw out a posting about a month ago looking for a homebrew solution to
Zima to make for my wife, and I got a handful of helpful responses.  Most of
which said it was probably too high-tech for homebrewers.

Summary Response: Essentially, the brew is a malt beverage, probably with
clear adjuncts, and few hops.... the absolute minimum hops amount for the
brewery to still get the feds & state authorities to call it "beer".  Malts
would be the palest SRM / Lovibond that you could find.  Next, filter every
meaningful molecule of anything out of it (and most homebrewers said this
includes taste & character).  The larger breweries can afford the equipment.
This is what drives the price of Zima upwards, I feel certain, plus a
marketing push as a "premium" beverage.  A couple of homebrewers suggested a
series of filters (jumping straight to sub-micron would be frustratingly
slow to filter, expensive & time consuming).  Finally, you would flavor the
resulting clear brew with the citrus blend of your choice.  2 Dog Lemon Brew
is more heavily flavored than Zima.  I agree with the comparison to
Gin-n-Tonic.

Best Regards,
Richard Scott
Coppell (Dallas) Texas



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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:01:27 +0300
From: "Sandy Macmillan" <scotsman at ncc.moc.kw>
Subject: Grain Mill

Head pops up out of lurking mode
Has anyone any experience of hand operated grain mills. I am looking for
recommendation as to type and costs.

Post or private OK
Sandy Macmillan
Scotsman at ncc.moc.kw
Return to lurking mode



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Date: Tue, 08 Dec 98 07:28:23 -0500
From: Ken Houtz <kenhoutz at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Slamming

- -- [ From: Ken Houtz * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] --

Date: Monday, 07-Dec-98 05:11 PM

From: Ken Houtz                \ Internet:    (kenhoutz at nut-n-but.net)
To:   Home Brewers Digest      \ Internet:    (post@hbd.org)

Subject: Slamming

John,

You have expressed my thoughts beautifully and said it better than I could.

Thanks for a job well done.

Ken Houtz
Port Charlotte, FL



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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 06:41:32 -0600
From: "Richard Scott" <rscott57 at flash.net>
Subject: Beer in the CO2 Regulator problem

I look forward to reading the solutions to Michael Maag's recent post.
Thought I'd add to the newbie knowledge base.

I made a rookie mistake.  Recently I racked a Hefeweisen to a 5 gal. corny
keg.  It was pushing a full (!!) 5 gallons (it filled the secondary carboy
high up on the neck of the bottle).  Dummy me racks the whole load into the
corny (thinking "ah... more good beer, not less"), and apparently the fluid
level was up to or over the in-valve's short dip tube.  I carbonated /
conditioned in the keg with 1/2 cup of brewers corn sugar (aside: I've had
good results with this in lieu of & in combination with forced
carbonization).  Waited a couple of weeks.  Now I was ready to hook up the
CO2 system & picnic tap; I pushed the  CO2 connector onto the "In" pushette,
and Goosh!   Here comes the beer!  Back up the line to the regulator, which
I had set between 5-10 psi, my normal pressure for post-carbonated beer.....
just enough to push the beer out the picnic tap & keep the foaming down.  If
I had popped the pressure relief valve prior to connecting the lines, I
probably would have minimized the back-flow.  Nevertheless, the fluid level
was too high in the corny.  Lesson learned.

Immediately I jacked up the regulator pressure to 35 psi, but the damage was
done.  I disconnected & blew out the lines & regulator with CO2. Cleaned the
line with Iodophor.   Not to waste a good beer, I've hooked it back up & am
enjoying a fine nearly-dunkelweisen.

Second aside: Bought for myself the "Homebrewing for Dummies" book before
any wise guy family member could bust my chops with it.  An excellent read:
informative & witty.  Good for skill sets from Newbie to newer All-Grainer.
Not written by Mr. Papazian, but endorsed by AHA, I suggest it as a good
starter-text alternative recommendation (for those in HBD wishing to steer
clear of things Papazian).  Anything by D.Miller that I've read was good.
Would HBD readers suggest other must-reads?  No affiliation with any of the
above, yadda yadda...   Christmas is a great time for the spouse to give me
homebrew books; I'll pick out my own equipment!

Best regards,
Richard Scott
Coppell (Dallas.. yes the Cowboys are stinking up the joint) Texas




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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:19:52 EST
From: Wyorich at aol.com
Subject: Slamming v. Discourse

There's a definite difference between slamming a homebrewer for asking a
question and voicing your opinions regarding a public figure, organization or
similar issue.  

The former is just plain mean, especially since all brewers were novices once
with many, many questions.  In fact, the only stupid question is the one that
is not asked.  As Renner suggested, the experienced branch of the collective
needs to remember their roots (and be patient) and the newbies need to ask any
question that may come up.  In reality, more subscribers would probably learn
something they could actually use from a post on basic yeast starters than a
discussion of 240 wiring.  But the variety is what makes it great.   Of
course, if you ask a question that has been answered 4 times in the last
month, expect a little ribbing, there is an archive.  But, we're not that
fragile, are we?

As for Charlie, the AHA, AB, the Easymasher, Clinitest, etc. let 'em have it
with both barrels as long as you have a factual basis and something meaningful
to say.  This is public discourse and a very important facet of the HBD. We
should frankly discuss any issue that impacts homebrewing.    This can include
new recipes, products, and techniques, or whether our most publicly visible
flagship organization is putting the screws to us.  The Easymasher saga is a
good example, some hate it and some love it, but all voiced their opinions for
better or worse. Certainly pro-AHA'ers are welcome to voice their opinions,
but convince us with facts not a simple plea to leave poor ole Charlie alone.
Adsit's story was a good defense of Gatza and the new AHA.  Posts re: AHA
finances and Charlie's salary are valuable as well. As an AHA member, I
appreciate learning the good, the bad, and the ugly; especially when they are
spending my money.  Facts help us learn, rhetoric may read well, but is
basically worthless.  Let's stick to facts and no one can bitch.

Chuckle of the Day-  some of the people advocating a kinder, gentler HBD are
just as bad as their opposition.  The guy at the end of the last issue
advocates no slamming and says the quality and tone of our discourse is
abysmal.  Then he turns around and slams the 'guilty' HBD'rs by saying, "It is
as if Jerry Springer and his guests are "normal"."  Oh come now!  Jerry
Springer!  Isn't that exactly the type of low, mean-spirited, "abysmal"
rhetoric that he apparently seeks to avoid?  Just wondering????  


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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:05:58 -0500 
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: coil pressure drop equation clarification

For those who payed attention to the posted equations for pressure drop
through a cooling coil:

Here is a clarification since the HBD didn't seem to like the
exponential powers as superscripts on my listed equations

H = 2 V^2 L F / (G D)

F = 0.079/(Re^0.25) + 0.0073/(Dcoil / D)^0.5

These carrots "^" are used to denote the variable to the appropriate
power by the way.

Hope that those might clear up some of the potential problems.  Also,
when using the relations, make sure units are consistent.  I used metric
since the properties I had on hand were metric (m, kg,etc) although
english would obviously work fine too (inches, lb, etc).

Pete

Pete Czerpak
Process Engineer
pete.czerpak at siigroup.com



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Date: 8 Dec 1998 08:38:35 -0500
From: Jason.Gorman at steelcase.com
Subject: Iodophor


When using iodophor as a no rinse sanitizer (tsp per 5 gallons), do you need
to let it completely air dry or can you use it still wet?


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Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 08:45:32 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: D-rest and keggers/bottlers

Heck, Dan....

I love bottle conditioned beer when it's done right.  IMHO, I think it is
harder to get a quality beer when bottle conditioning.  I also bottle but I
wish I had a keg system. I really despise the bottling process.  Far too
time consuming.  It takes twice as much  time to clean, sterilize, charge,
fill and cap as it does for the entire mashing and brewing process and you
have to work at it all the time during the process.  Kegging is just filter,
dump and carbonate.     I really don't know that keggers are more advanced
than bottlers but I would propose that they tend to be lazier, or at least
place greater value on their time.

>I don't want to turn this into a "bottlers are less advanced than keggers",

>so let me publicly state that I meant no offense (I myself only bottle
>condition and have no short-term plans to move to kegs).





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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:56:22 -0500
From: "J. Matthew Saunders" <saunderm at vt.edu>
Subject: Re:  Help my marriage

DGofus at aol.com and rlabor at lsumc.edu write:

>> My friend and I decided to purchase 6 cases of beer and split the cost
>>and >>beer down the middle. We got great prices on some wonderful beers,
>>>>but........my dear wife did not think that the idea was so great. So,
>>to >>appease her and keep in her good graces;^), I need to get rid of
>>these case.
>>I do not want to make money, just recoup my loses so that my understanding
>>spouse does not decide to rid the house of all my homebrew equipment and me
>>along with it! Price would be like $60

and

>This may be a critical point in your marriage and future.  Do not under any
>circumstances sell your cases to become henpecked.  You life will become
>total misery and be worse than death!
>
>Not to brag, but my wife allows me to buy all the beer I want, and also paid
>for half the brewhouse construction and helped me select curtains for the
>new windows.  She also clips beer news items from the local papers for my
>reading.  She doesn't drink beer, but she is very supportive of my hobby.
>
>How much has your wife spent on expensive shinny pots?  On ice cream?  On
>makeup (warpaint)?  On women's magazines?  You get the idea!

I must say that I agree with Ronald.  $60 doesn't seem like that much to
spend on 3 cases of two kinds of Westmalle etc.  In our local beer/wine
shop Westmalle retails at $6.95/bottle, a pretty penny.  My wife doesn't
drink beer either, but tries very hard to be supportive of my hobby.  She's
even gone as far as brewing two batches herself, sniffing and tasting
lambics (even if she does make a face), and purchasing new beers as they
show up in our town.  To reciprocate, I look out for craftsy type things
that she likes, for example neat fabrics, scrap-book materials and tools,
candle and soap making stuff, etc.

Perhaps the solution isn't so much to sell the beer, but to show lots of
interest in her hobbies as well.

<skotrat at wwa.com> writes:

>The Ego-ridden-swollen-headed-weazle Charlie "You Should All Kiss my ass for
>what I have done for you all... (God I am Great)" Papazian writes:

I was shocked and amazed at how nasty and ugly some posts were in response
to Mr. Papazian's post.  It is a real shame that obvious bitterness and
hate have reduced parts of the HBD to mud-slinging and name calling.

dluckie at datasync.com writes:

>  My $0.02 on Mr. Papazian,
>the AHA and the leadership in this hobby:
>
>The hobby of crafting great beer at home thrives despite the AHA, not
>because of it.    The real leaders in this movement have selflessly
>given their time and talent to a hobby that they love.

Mr. Papazian and the AHA are at least partially responsible for the
enormous popularity that home-brewing enjoys today.  It may well be that
the AHA needs re-vamping, perhaps a transfusion of new blood could perk it
up.

>Korzonas, Palmer, Liddil, Lutzen...  These guys and their compatriots
>are the real heroes of homebrew.

I absolutely agree that this group of people have rocketed the hobby
forward by leaps and bounds.  This group on the HBD is (for the most part)
terrific.  The janitors of this "cyber-publication" deserve a whole lot of
credit too by bringing together an international base of
expertise--essentially creating a world-wide homebrew club.

NEWTRADBC at aol.com writes:

>First homebrewing book I bought (like many others) was "TheCompleteJoy of
>Homebrewing."  A book I still have and enjoy perusing, despite the cover
>falling off and virtually every page stained with wort.   Buying that book was
>my epiphany (sp?),  having only previously relied on the recipes on the labels
>of syrup. So thanks Charlie, without that book, and the other AHA material
>back in the dark ages, I'd never learned to  enjoy beer and brewing like I do
>now.

I started brewing almost 12 years ago in Canada.  This was the ONLY book
available and helped me produce beers that were *worth* drinking.  If it
hadn't been for Papazian's book, I might not have continued with the hobby.


As a group, even if we have problems with the AHA and Charlie, lets at
least give them the respect due of being a force that has helped us enjoy
and build a hobby that is truly wonderful.  More times than not, a machine;
a group of people; an organization, are more than the sum of their parts.

I for one am glad that Charlie posted to the HBD.  It shows that he cares
about the hobby and those who participate in it.  I couldn't believe at how
nasty and ugly some of the posts were that followed.

maagm at rica.net writes:

> I got some beer in my CO2
>regulator.  I have heard it "will ruin it".... The regulator seems to work
>ok.  >Should I take the regulator apart and try to clean it out?

Leave it be for the moment.  Taking it apart may well do more damage than
it helps.  If it is working, why try to fix it?

Cheers!
Matthew.

An Ontario transplant living in Virginia.













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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:55:25 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Oxidation

"Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>  writes about air and CO2 in bottled
beer:

>I'd think that as long as you don't go sloshing
>the bottle around, the CO2 layer should prevent what little air there is
>in the bottle from ever touching the beer.  Is this totally off base, or
>what??

In a word, yes.  Sorry. ;-)  While CO2 is indeed heavier than air, there is
something called diffusion, which means that the gases all mix until there
is uniform distribution of all of the molecules in the headspace.  It
occurs because at any temperature above absolute zero, which is way too
cold to drink beer, the molecules all move around randomly.  That's what
heat is - the movement of the molecules (or atoms or whatever particles).
Well, actually, it's the kinetic energy of the moving molecules.  You get
the idea.  Anyway, the O2 will "touch" the beer and diffuse and into it
until the O2 in solution in the beer and in the headspace are in
equilibrium.  Then, as components of the beer oxidize, thereby removing
oxygen from the beer, more will diffuse into the beer from the headspace to
maintain equilibrium.

Moral - reduce O2 in the headspace to a minimum.  When I bottle, I can
often manage to squirt a little beer into the bottle at the end of the fill
by holding the tip of the filler against the inside of the neck and get the
beer to foam up.  This works best with cold, supersaturated (with CO2) beer
and a good pressure head from raising the bottling bucket high over the
bottles.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:15:39 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Ballantine IPA

>"O'mahoney, Larry (LLOM)" <LLOM at chevron.com> writes:

>I was fortunate
>enough to receive a recipe from Jeff Renner.
>
>I modified Jeff's recipe a little, mostly because I only had 6 lbs. of 6-row
>and 1.5 lbs. of corn sugar.

I should make it clear that my recipe was not one I had brewed but rather a
guess based on a note in Zymurgy quoting an old Ballantine's brewer and
some other references, including Martin Lodahl's article on stock ales in
BT, Wahl and Henius' 1902 "American Handy Book" and Nugey's 1948 "Brewers
Manual."  Larry has done the real work and has brewed what sounds like a
great clone.  I hope others will try duplicating this beer.  Use his recipe
 - not mine.  I will.  If he got over 7% alcohol with 1.5 lbs corn sugar,
stay away from my suggested 2.6 lbs!

Nice work, Larry.  And thanks for spreading the gospel of classic American
beers brewed with 6-row malt, adjuncts and domestic hops.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 08:51:54 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Oud Bruin

Chris asked for a recipe for an Oud Bruin.

I can't vouch for how good the recipe is, but here is one of the URL's for
Phillip Seitz's notes on brewing and tasting belgian beers.

http://realbeer.com/spencer/Belgian/

I'm in the process of gathering all I need to follow his Oud Bruin recipe
with a couple of minor modifications (I'm going to use bacteria in mine).
Check out this site...it should help.
nathan in Madison ,WI




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Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 08:00:33 +0000
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu>
Subject: rodenbach/hannsens/vial storage

> Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 14:31:16 -0700
> From: Christopher "R." Hebert <CRH at ny.rfny.rflaw.com>
> Subject: Oud Bruin
> 
> I've got the patience, I've got the time, and I have the Oak Barrel.
> What I don't have, however, is a good recipe for Oud Bruin/Rodenbach. 
> Nothing in Cat's Meow and Phllip Seitz doesn't seem to be around the
> HBD these days.  So, last resort, does anyone out there have a darn
> good recipe that they'll share with me.  

Having a recipe and ending up with the right product are very different
things.  I'm shooting from memory since I don't have the dissertation on
rodenbach prodcution with me.  As I recall the grist is 10% corn flakes and
around 1065 for the old stuff and 1058 for the young.  They are mixed to
make the standard rodenbach.  grand gru is all old (again I think).  The
brewery is infected with lactic bacteria and the brewery washes the yeast
to keep the level of lactic bacteria to something like 5% of the total
population in the yeast at pitching.  The oak tus have brett in the wood
but their seems to be little free wild yeast in suspension.  The bacteria
is dominated by a strain of pediococcus (not damnosus).

My attempts have involved first innoculating wort with ~ 10 bu with a
combination this pediococcus strain and lactobacillus. and allowing it to
go for a few months.  Then I have added normal brewing yeast and allowed it
to ferment out.  This gave me a very lactic beer.  I then have some that I
added brett to and it is still unbottled as is about 40 other 1 gallons
jugs around the house.  I'll have to dig up the dissertation for other
details of check the LD archives.


I think the Hannsens is OK, and I still think that it is likely they use
saccahrin in thier beer.
> From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
> Subject: storing stored yeast
> 
> 
> OK, I've got too many strains of yeast already, and I continue to add
> more.  I store them in small dram vials.  How are folks storing the
> damn little vials (don't say "upright")?  I tried pushing holes in
> styrofoam, to no avail.  I don't want to spend $$ for some lab
> supplied solution.  Some type of glue pad maybe?
> 

Places cardboard boxes with dividers.  Wheaton is one company that comses
to mind. You can check thier web site to see what I am talking about.  Or
look at the VWR web site vwrsp.com under crygenic stuff.  Let me know if
you still can't find what you need.  

Easymashers are virtually indestructible as all pointed out. I have done
all kinds of things to mine and it still works great.  And even now that I
have RIMS I still decided to make beer with it this past weekend.  Simple
and trouble free just like my JSP mill.

Jim Liddil Mentally near no one.


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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:00:36 -0800
From: "Brian Dixon" <mutex at proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: air/ O2

>I was at the same meeting that Ron was when we heard about the air
>versus oxygen! I have seen all the post, now which one is better--pure
>oxygen (from a welding or medical tank) or just plain old air that is
>pumped through a filter????
>Rick Lassabe

Is there something I'm not seeing here?  Assuming 'clean' air or O2
(regardless of source or 'cleaning' method), it seems odd to me to ask about
air which is 16% oxygen (22%? 25%? ... too long since chemistry class)
versus pure oxygen (ninety nine and forty four one hundredths percent pure).
I'm assuming the meeting that is mentioned must've said something about
benefits from other gases (such as nitrogen?) that are actually
beneficial???  Why this question?  Geez ... I just bought an Oxynator!!!

Brian




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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 06:57:22 -0800
From: Kyle_Druey at na.dole.com
Subject: Protein Rest is Dead

     Fellow cyber brewers,

     I believe that one of the tasks at hand this year on the HBD was to
     resolve the great protein rest debate: to protein rest or not to
     protein rest, that is the question.  From my clintonesque
     recollection, the details are fuzzy, since this topic has not been
     delved into for quite awhile.  I believe we last left off that a
     protein rest was *not* required with todays well modified malts, and
     in fact, a protein rest could increase the potential for chill haze.
     So, is the protein rest now dead for the homebrewer in the next
     millenium?  Inquiring minds want to know...

     I'm always ready to answer a beginners question by referring to my
     well preserved copy of "The Complete Ploy of Homebrewing", aka "how to
     turn pub-crawling into a full time job", or "I wish I would have spent
     that $11.95 on pH strips".

     Kyle Druey
     Bakersfield, CA

     Still grieving over the loss of Bryant Young.




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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:19:32 -0800
From: "Brian Dixon" <mutex at proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: cap on foam / headspace

After aging some beer over a year and finding a bit of staling, I kinda got
onto a "keep the air out" kick and figured out (for me) how I can keep air
out of the process.  I think I've got it all figured out from start to
finish.  Here goes:

1. Doughing in and mashing: Gentle stirring, no splashing.  Gently transfer
to lauter tun with no 'plops'.  I use a small mixing bowl as a scoop and
'lay' the mash in the bottom of the lauter tun.  Brewers that don't have to
do this transfer are better off.

2. Sparging: Laminar (no spray or drops formed) flow sparging, including
recirculation.  For the recirculation, I use a shallow bowl to collect first
runnings and then gently lower the bowl into the water floating on the mash
 ... no pouring.

3. Boil: No unnecessary splashing (not sure it matters anyway).

4. Chilling: I use an immersion chiller, so I just make sure that no
splashing or surface agitation takes place until the temperature is below 70
F.

5. Racking, oxygenating, and pitching: Rack any way you want, splash all you
want ... have fun!  Got a new Oxynater to play with this year and will use
this now.  Pitch as always.

6. Fermentation and racking to secondary: I do the primary in one carboy,
and use those orange 2-hole carboy caps.  I run a 'blow off' tube from one
carboy to a second one, and keep the air lock on the second carboy.  This
fills the second carboy with CO2 in preparation for racking to it.  I have
noticed that using this setup has the strange effect of keeping the krausen
from the primary from getting so out of hand that it needs to blow off.
That is, I get foam but no blow off to the second carboy ... unless you use
Wyeast #1007 (holy smokes!).  If I get blow off and it's not much, I just
rack into it.  Otherwise, I wash out the secondary just as soon as the
krausen retreats a bit, then hook it back up to fill with CO2 before racking
again.

7. Racking for bottling: I prepare my priming solution as always, but pour
through the CO2 blanket in the secondary _prior_ to racking to a bottling
carboy (or bucket).  Then I carefully rack to the bottling carboy or bucket
and gently swirl the primed beer ... haven't tried allowing the CO2 from the
secondary to fill a bottling carboy yet, but maybe I will next time (might
not get enough CO2...).

8. Bottling: I thought of using dry ice in a tray over a box, with the box
filled with 6-packs of bottles, to flood the bottles with CO2 prior to
bottling, but decided not to do it.  I plan on trying a syringe and
sterilized water (like a pro system) to give each bottle a shot after
bottling to cause CO2 to come out of solution for purging the head space.
Haven't done either of these techniques yet, but will on the next brew.

Anyway, sorry for the length of the post.  I'd be happy to hear any
inspirations or corrections that anyone has to offer.  HBD or my email is
fine (but I prefer the public forum).

Brian




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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:19:25 -0500 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject:  Re: Woodruff, Gelatine


> Eric asks about the use of woodruff in beer or mead.   Although woodruff
> is sold in homebrew stores (sometimes you can find it there in dried
> form), I must be one of the few brewers who have used it.  I once tasted a
> wonderful beer by Andreas Brewing Company that was a very pale Woodruff
> Ale.  I was able to replicate this fairly closely but never got to try
> mine and theirs side by side.   But in trying I learned a lot about
> woodruff.  It's a perenial herb.  But the essential oils that give you the
> sweet flavors and aromas unique to woodruff only are formed upon drying.
> So you have to use dried woodruff.  I did buy some plants and they are now
> a ground cover in my yard but I sort of lost interest in woodruff about
> the time they started paying off.   The oils in the dried woodruff are
> only soluble in alcohol.  So putting them in the kettle is a waste of
> time.  Dry spicing is the way to go.  And it doesn't take much at all to
> over power a beer.  I'd recommend starting with 1/4oz in a 5 gallon batch
> and go up or down from there.  Cascades hops goes very well with woodruff,
> so brewing a light ale (fruitiness also goes very well) with Cascades hops
> for a flavor and aroma addtition followed by dry spicing with woodruff and
> some Cascades for aroma (here maybe only 1/2oz) will yield a very pleasant
> beer.  The spicing needs to be subtle, not over powering.  Balance of
> malt, hops and the spice is needed.  I've also found that when this sits
> in the bottle for a long time, the woodruf does go away over time
> (months), so drink up.   A slight amount in a wit might be interesting,
> but woodruff results in a flavor that can be described as sweet and this
> isn't really one you want in a wit.  But just a little may make for an
> interesting wit.  Certainly the same sort of very light base beer is what
> you're looking for anyway.  
> 
> Dave Houseman


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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:55:45 -0500
From: "Rob Jones" <robjones at pathcom.com>
Subject: Labic storage info-mercial from Vanberg & De Wulf

I recently was referred to this web page as a reply to my question about
long-term storage of lambics.

http://belgianstyle.com/mmguide/press/laydown.html

Hope it proves helpful to all concerned.

Rob Jones,
Toronto, Canada




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Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:51:15 -0500
From: Rod Schaffter <schaffte at delanet.com>
Subject: re: storing stored yeast

Scott asks:

> OK, I've got too many strains of yeast already, and I continue to 
add more.  I store them in small dram vials.  How are folks 
storing the damn little vials (don't say "upright")?  I tried 
pushing holes in styrofoam, to no avail.  I don't want to 
spend $$ for some lab supplied solution. 

Try drilling out holes in the foam with a piece of brass tubing from
 the hardware store.  Use 2 layers of foam-drill one through, and 
glue to a second virgin piece as a base.

You can also store them upright in a small juice glass-this is the 
technique I used in my lab in grad school(well, I did use a beaker!)

BTW what is a "small dram"?  It reminds me of the old Cotton Club
soda comercials, where they bragged about "Big 32 oz. Quarts": 
what other size quart is there! Aren't drams still 1/8 oz? ;-)
(fluid, not avdp.) :-))

Cheers!
Rod Schaffter
Hockessin, DE


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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 11:40:36 -0500 (EST)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: HBD server and "advanced" mailers...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Mr. Czerpak points out...

"Here is a clarification since the HBD didn't seem to like the
exponential powers as superscripts on my listed equations"

For those new to the list, and those veteran readers with poor memories: 
the server publishes to the least common denominator, ensuring that it can
mail to the widest audience. This imposes several limits: one is the
length. Another is that it uses only plain ascii coding. Superscripts,
underlines, italics, bold, umlauts, accent grav.... are not part of this
code and will invariably be misinterpreted by the server. BE SURE to set
your mailer for NO multipart MIME, NO MIME encoding, NO HTML, NO
attachments, US-ACII only. Several of these will cause the post to be
rejected by either the server, or by me. The others will result in your
readers thinking that evolution somehow passed you by :-)

Nuff said!

See ya!
 -p



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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:57:53 -0500
From: David Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com>
Subject: storing vials upright

Scott Murman asks:

>OK, I've got too many strains of yeast already, and I continue to add
>more.  I store them in small dram vials.  How are folks storing the
>damn little vials (don't say "upright")?  I tried pushing holes in
>styrofoam, to no avail.  I don't want to spend $$ for some lab
>supplied solution.  Some type of glue pad maybe?

Two words: "tin can"

Pick a can of suitable height for your vials, and fill it with enough vials
that they hold each other up.  If you only remove one vial at a time,
there's no problem with the remaining ones tipping.  Use tiny labels on the
vial lid to identify which vial is which.

Remember the chapter in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintanence", where
the guy has this aesthetic problem with shimming the handlebars of his
expensive motorcycle using aluminum from a beer can?  Get past that.  I'm
in the middle of my Big Yeast Storage Experiment, using a $30,000 research
microscope at work.  My sample holders started life holding catfood and
baked beans respectively.  They work like a charm, and don't melt when you
autoclave them.


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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:15:15 -0500
From: Herbert Bresler <bresler.7 at osu.edu>
Subject: reply to: storing stored yeast HBD#2895

In HBD#2895 Scott Murman asked for an inexpensive convenient way to store
his large collection of 1 dram vials.

Scott,

For storage of 1 dram vials I use plastic boxes about 12"x 8"x2"h with a
hinged lid.  They are avialable with and without plastic dividers.  I use
one with chambers about 2"x2" so 9 vials fit into each compartment.  These
have several advantages: they are clean and cleanable, they keep the vials
upright, they stack nicely to save space, they are relatively unbreakable,
and you can label them for quick access.  You can also catalog the boxes
(if your collection is really huge) and know where each and every yeast is
hiding (...Chimay yeast...box 3, row 2, column C...let's see, only two
left...better make more...).

I have seen these boxes at hardware stores and sewing notions stores for
very reasonable prices.  My wife uses a nice box made of polypropylene to
keep all her quilting threads neatly sorted, so if you have a quilting
supply nearby...

Good luck and good brewing,
Herb
Bexley, Ohio




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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:45:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Copper Salts

John writes: 
>Verdigris (cupric acetate, copper sulfate, or copper chloride) is a
>group of blue green oxides of copper and is very poisonous. If you have
>copper components that have it on it then you need to clean them using
>vinegar before using them in your brewing.

What about copper salts (not oxides, right?) from galvanic corrosion in
plumbing?  We have a lot of mixed metal plumbing in the house and the
previous owners were too cheap to put in galvanic couplings, so there are
blue-green salts (along with some white calcium carbonate) hanging off
most of the brass valves in the basement.  I'm wondering how much of these
salts can actually form on the inside and enter the water supply (I know
the insides of the pipes are caked with calcium carbonate, we've got about
105 ppm of bi/carbonate in the water here).

We have been using a carbon filter (Pur, if it makes a difference) for
about a year now, mostly to remove the aroma from the water during the
summer (darned Tiger Mussels!).  Would this remove any of these salts?
I suspect not, as they are quite soluble.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:26:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Diacetyl rest

Darrell asks what's the right length of time for a diacetyl rest "1 to 10
days" or "1 to 2 days."  I believe that actual time spent at 55 to 65F
should be 1 to 2 days.  It will take a few more days to cool the beer
back down to the 33 to 45F range.  One of the perils of writing on a
computer is that you are likely to re-write one part of a sentence and
leave another part alone.  I probably initially included the time taken
to lower the temperature back down, but then later re-worded the other
part of the sentence and now the whole meaning is different.

In commercial breweries, the diacetyl rest is typically 1 to 2 days 
*AT* the warm temperatures and then a slow cooling back down to lagering
temperatures.  Note that not only is Wyeast #2308 likely to benefit
from a diacetyl rest, the beer will require some lagering to get rid
of some sulphury aromas too.  The diacetyl rest may help reduce the
time it takes to lager-out those sulphury aromas too... if so, that
would be great as a beer I made with Wyeast #2308 took 4 months at 40F
to lose an unpleasant "home perm solution" aroma (after which it won
several ribbons).

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:54:49 -0800
From: Jon Sandlin <sandlinj at ucs.orst.edu>
Subject: temperature controller

I am thinking about building a RIMS, and I would like to use the
propane burner that I already have.  Is it possible to make a
temperature controller for a propane burner that will turn it off when
the target temperature is reached?  I assume that I will have to make a
pilot light.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Jon Sandlin
Corvallis, OR


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