---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  soapy taste in foam ("Braam Greyling")
  Munton's Ale Yeast at low Temps (Ant Hayes)
  ramp time ... (LEAVITDG)
  Bland 6 Pack Carriers (Ken Houtz)
  Fruit Flys (Paul Niebergall)
  Lousy, Crappy Malts (Ian Forbes)
  Some responses... (Joe Rolfe)
  Malts and degree of modification ("George De Piro")
  Going from Keg to Bottle (venesms)
  Small Fermentation, six pack carriers ("David R. Burley")
  Autoclaving (Brad Miller)
  Delirium Tremens (Tim Anderson)
  Electric Stove Heat Boost - Use Steam! (Part I) ("William W. Macher")
  Electric Stove Heat Boost - Use Steam! (Part II) ("William W. Macher")
  Grain Mill Attachment ("Myers, Richard")
  Mash in ("Myers, Richard")
  Gram scales (Doug Moyer)
  Vienna lager (Jeff Renner)
  Re: The effects of modification on mash recipe formulation. (Jeff Renner)
  Son of Krausen - Wyeast 2308 (Charley Burns)
  Which autoclave? ("Lee B.")
  reusing secondary yeast (JPullum127)
  Re:6 packs (Rick Jarvis)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

Enter The Mazer Cup! _THE_ mead competition.
Details available at http://hbd.org/mazercup
NOTE NEW HOMEBREW ADDRESS:  hbd.org 

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. 
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
  the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!

Contact brewery at hbd.org for information regarding the "Cat's Meow"

Back issues are available via:

  HTML from...
        http://hbd.org
  Anonymous ftp from...
	ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests
	ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer
  AFS users can find it under...
        /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

COPYRIGHT for the Digest as a collection is currently held by hbd.org 
  (Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen). Digests in their entirity CANNOT be 
  reprinted/reproduced without this entire header section unless 
  EXPRESS written permission has been obtained from hbd.org.
COPYRIGHT for individual posts within each Digest is held by the
  author. Articles cannot be extracted from the Digest and
  reprinted/reproduced without the EXPRESS written permission of the
  author. The author and HBD must be attributed as author and source
  in any such reprint/reproduction. (Note: QUOTING of items 
  originally appearing in the Digest in a subsequent Digest is 
  exempt from the above.)

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 09:48:21 +200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azona.com>
Subject: soapy taste in foam

Hi all,

Recently I made a lovely Pilsener with Saaz hops from Zatec.
I hopped it quite highly, around 35 IBU and made a hop tea 
afterwards which I added for aroma.
It was a full mash beer with all imported malts.
The beer came out excellent except for a soapy taste in the foam.
What could this be ? Can it be the hops ? The beer is perfect 
otherwise and the soapy taste is very mild. The head retention and 
foaming also are perfect. My kegs were definitely spotless clean 
and all my beer lines and taps as well.

Cheers



Braam Greyling      
Snr. Design Engineer
Azona(Pty)Ltd     
tel +27 12 6641910  fax +27 12 6641393


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 08:56:39 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Munton's Ale Yeast at low Temps

I am running out of Pale Ale, and so am forced into an interesting position.
Ambient temperature averages some 25C. I have a lager fridge with a maximum
temperature of 7C.

I have decided to try out Munton's Ale Yeast at 7C. It seems to be
fermenting fine (after 18 hours). Does anyone have any experience with this
yeast at low temperatures.

Thanks

Ant Hayes


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 08:15:01 -0500 (EST)
From: LEAVITDG at SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU
Subject: ramp time ...

I have enjoyed the discussion between Jeff and Bob re: ramp time and
CAP,...but have a question, I believe, of Jeff:
  I am planning a Munich Lager, using Fawcett's Lager malt as the
base, and perhaps a lb of Munich, and a touch of Crystal (?), but 
wonder ... ... if I try the suggestion of mashing in at 149 with a
rest, then 158, then mashout at 170....  why not a rest for beta-glucanase
at 100 or so?  Is this not needed for a Lager?
Thankyou for Jeff and Bob for this discussion.
 ..Darrell
<Plattsburgh,NY...about 500 miles nnw of Jeff, I suppose>


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 09:42:51 -0500
From: Ken Houtz <kenhoutz at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Bland 6 Pack Carriers

- -- [ From: Ken Houtz * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] --

Tom,

I've thrown quite a few of those away.  They come as "free gifts" with
orders from Brewers Resource.  Their toll free # is 800-827-3983.  Maybe
they sell them too; I don't know.

Ken Houtz
Port Charlotte, FL  (Waaaaaay south of Jeff Renner)


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 09:20:06 -0600
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: Fruit Flys

G. De Piro writes:

>here is once again talk about the "fruit fly beer." Evidently, it won
>third place at a contest so some people are assuming the accidental
>adjunct did no harm.  If I recall, the original writer said that he had
>not seen the judge's comments yet.

Of course.  Why did not I think of that?  Obviously, the judges were
a bunch of schmucks and did not have the ability to taste the subtle
flavors components added by the presence of a fruit fly in the starter.
If the judges would have the amount of tasting experience as George
has, then they would have spit the beer out and not even judged it.

A single fact applies to this story: A fruit fly was in the starter, and
the beer placed third in a competition.  Based on this single data
point, fruit flies in starters cause no harm to beer.  The data point may
be in error (because George did not perform the actual tasting), but a
single dubious data point is a hell of a lot better that a bunch of
speculation.   Does anyone out there have a  specific case were
a fruit fly was in a starter and the resulting beer was judged as bad? 
Until someone supplies additional data, we have to assume that
fruit flies are not a problem in starters.


Paul Niebergall
Kansas City




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 10:15:00 -0500
From: Ian_Forbes at AICI.COM (Ian Forbes)
Subject: Lousy, Crappy Malts

>From Jack Schmidling  -

"No problem at all once one figures out who makes the lousy
malt and stops buying it.  Unfortunately, the beginner does not
have that advantage and usually buys the pits and then
complains about the crush."

>From Joe Rolfe  -

"There is alot of crappy malt out there."

Back to me -

As an all-grain beginner (just got the equipment for my first
all grain try), does anyone out there have any advice as to how
to stay away from all of the "lousy" malts I have been reading
about recently?


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 12:23:25 -0500
From: Joe Rolfe <rolfe at sky.sky.com>
Subject: Some responses...

Jack Schmidling said:

>Not only the ability to measure the gravity
>on our crude instruments but as the difference (if any) will be 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>so slight as to be totally unreliable and unrepeatable.

Excellent point, Jack, Let me see a show of hands (homebrewers only)
that would be willing to put up the $100 to $300 bucks for a quality
set of hydrometers/sacchrometers?? And, yes if you want to measure with
any accuracy - ya gotta have'em (low range scales).  Esp if your bottle
conditioning for consistency.

>Actually, the worst are American as in U.S. and I have little 
>experience with Canadian malt and assume it is all crushed with
>that nice Canadian mill.

Is there a nice Canadian mill??

>When someone calls complaining about the yield, I tell them to make
>the next batch with Belgian malt and call me back if they still have
>a problem.  
>Guess what? 
>No one ever has called back. 

Did not think so. Back to crappy malt or crappy process - I guess.

>I would love to say some very profound things about ommagang
>but I haven't even a clue what it means.

Ommegang is a belgian ale brewery in Cooperstown, NY.  Very well funded.
Two products Ommegang and Hennipin ( that I have seen ) in sixers and 750
corked bottles. All bottle conditioned(??).  I have been hooked on the Hennipin
for a while, I'd buy more Unibroue but the distributor in our area is an A$$.
(from the movie Thunderdome - Embargo On).

In response to
Alan Meeker...
I meant to indicate that the bottoms blew off during fermentation, sorry
for the confusion.  Yes ALL autoclaving "should" be done with loose caps/
stoppers.  I never had much trouble "cooking" them, it was during fermentations
where I screwed up and left them closed too long.

On spores - I did come across some info that there are spores (mold/yeast)
out there that can survive autoclaving. At least this is what I was told by 
several industry people. Never proved it, thankfully.

On slants, I just never had wonderful luck with slants, On long storage
(9-18mo)
the strains I worked with just took a long time to come back to the performance
levels
I had when they had.  Granted most were bottom yeasts and probably mutated
somewhat.
Since then I have been exclusively using 10% sucrose, with no major troubles.
Recently 
pulled several out from many years ago.  In the process of testing them now.

Alan McKay....in regards to Canadian malsters.
I did not imply anyone was kniving, business is business and if you
think a maltsters gives a lot of thought to "Are we keeping the homebrewer
happy??", dont bet on it.  Our volumes are not worth much thought, again
business is business and we as homebrewers (and even small commercial brewers)
do not keep them in business. Unfortunate, but that is the way it is.  Some of
the smaller maltsters - who are trying to get some market share may be better
listeners.

As to some prods as to who these are and disservice to homebrew community:
I will not bash/flame/nuke a firm in a public firm - sorry.  I have
and will responded in private email - I will leave it at that.

Had a few more but screw it..dont have the HBD here to respond...
Good Luck and Great Brewing
Joe Rolfe


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 12:28:38 PST
From: "George De Piro" <gdepiro at fcc.net>
Subject: Malts and degree of modification

Hi all,

Steve asks about malt modification, specifically asking about Munich 
malts.
Munich malts are typically well-modified and can be used in a single-step
mash.  Munich malt gets its maltiness from melanoidins, which are 
substances
formed during kilning when sugars and amino acids combine chemically.
Maltsters aim for a well-modified malt to increase the amount of amino 
acids
available for this reaction.

Most, if not all, modern malts are well-modified enough to not need a 
multi-step
mash.  Search the archives for more info at the HBD website.

You can learn (to some extent) about a malt's degree of modification by 
looking
at the spec sheet for the malt (which your supplier can get for you if 
you ask).
Many maltsters have general specs (their target specs) up on their web 
sites.

The coarse/fine grind difference is one important spec.  In a lab a malt 
sample is crushed
to flour (fine grind) and another sample is crushed to brewery specs.  
The two samples
are then mashed and the extract calculated.  The difference should be 
1.8% or less
for a well-modified malt.  2.0% is still indicative of decent 
modification.  Over 2% may
indicate less-than-optimal modification, but I have not seen commercial 
malt in this range.

The Kolbach index is another important number.  It is the ratio of the 
soluble nitrogen to
total nitrogen.  Soluble nitrogen represents protein that has been broken
 down during
malting.  A high amount of soluble nitrogen is indicative of high 
modification.  A Kolbach
number <35 is indicative of poorly modiied malt.  35-41 indicates well 
modified malt and
>41 indicates highly modified malts.

Acropspire length can also tell a bit about the degree of modofocation, 
with a longer
acrospire being indicative of greater modification.  This number is the 
least useful
of all, though, because acrospire growth is only loosely related to the 
actual degree
of modification.

Most, if not all, commercial malts you will find today will have numbers 
that indicate a well-
modified product.  These numbers don't tell the entire story, but they 
will get you in the
ballpark.  Let your experience with a brand of malt be your ultimate 
guidance.

Old-fashoined tests like chewing on the malt or breaking it open and 
feeling the softness
of the endosperm have some value, but these tests take experience to 
master.  Compare
different types of malts by chewing on them.  The softer it is, the more 
well-modified it is.
This is most useful if you can compare the notes you take while chewing 
different malts
to the actual analytical specs for that lot of malt.  You can then learn 
how the numbers
relate to the feel of the malt.

Have fun!

George de Piro (Nyack, NY)


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 13:23:02 -0500
From: venesms at NU.COM
Subject: Going from Keg to Bottle

I want to enter a Dopplebock I kegged in a 5 liter unit some years back.
How can I transfer from keg to bottle and get it carbonated in time for a
January 30 contest?  Do I have to mix in some fresh yeast and wort?  It's
high in alcohol content (like, 13%) so that may stunt the fresh yeast.
What do I do?

Mike in Middletown




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 13:25:12 -0500
From: "David R. Burley" <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Small Fermentation, six pack carriers


Brewsters:

Mike Beatty has a dilemma.  He has 1 gallon beer kits and a 5 gallon
carboy and has had no success in finding glass bottles in the
1.5 - 2 gallon size.  Mike, I suggest you go to a resturant or food store

( discards - just no pickle bucket, please)  or Walmart and the like to 
get
a
white <polyethylene> bucket of 1.5 gallons and ferment in there. Place
a 2 to 4 mil polyethylene plastic sheet cover on the top and hold it down

drum tight with rubber bands daisy chained into a circle.  Cover the
bucket to keep the light out.  Then rack this into a gallon jar when
the active ferment has subsided. I have used this "open" fermentation
procedure for three decades and never had a spoiled batch.  I think it
is superior to the primary fermentation in a closed carboy system.
Others disagree. 

- -------------------------------
Tom Puskar asks where he can get some blank six-pack carriers and
needs a couple dozen. I saw a new generic blank carrier ( saying
something like "your favorite micro brewed beer" or something like
that), used by High Point Brewery, Butler NJ 973-838-7400.

This carrier was cardboard, a sheet bent into a rectangular solid
about 1" thick by whatever a six pack of beer is wide and long.
It has six bottle holes and two finger holes and slipped down over
the long necks and rests on the shoulder of the bottle, so you could
read the label on the bottle without having a separate package for
each type of beer. It stores flat, since the ends of the rectangular
solid are open. Putting beer in a case box, these can be easily
slipped on the bottles. Very innovative packaging which fits the
Small micro needs very well, IMHO.

Maybe Greg Zaccardi, President and Brewmaster, High Point Brewery
will sell you a few or tell you how you can get some from a supplier.

Also the outside of the carrier is brown cardboard but
the inside of this carrier is white cardboard, so it leads me to believe
That it can come printed if it were assembled the other side out.
You may be able to buy them, turn them inside out and print them
or take a colored sheet of paper and paste it over the outside to
personalize it.

You could even make your own from thin posterboard on which
you could copy your artwork. Take a piece of cardboard, cut it
to the long width ( say 8") of a six pack and 2 times the width of
a six pack ( say 6") plus 2 inches plus a glue overlap say 1/2 inch.
You would therefore have a cardboard sheet  8 X 141/2 "  Make
a fold at 1", 7", 8", and 14" and glue or staple this together.
Cut six holes, by cutting X's ( with three crosshatches)  at where
the bottles will come through plus some finger holes. By modifying
these dimensions a little ( folds at 3/4", 6 3/4", 7 1/2", 13 1/2")
you could use 81/2 X 14 inch sheets of paper or cardboard.
This would allow you to use photocopied artwork.

 High Point's Winter Wheat was a hit with my daughter's
friends at a recent party. Although one friend did complain that
last summer he had to throw out  three quarters of a case, even
though the first six or so blondes were OK. He loves wheat
beer, so he claims. High Point may have some bottle stability
problems, I don't know.  Nevertheless, High Point has overcome
some odds in their operations and they are still in business, which
is a tribute to their skills. They claim ( I believe) to be one of three
wheat only breweries in the US, if I remember correctly.
If you see it on the  shelf, give it a try.
I have no affiliation with High Point, yadda, yadda..

Hoppy New Beer!


Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ 07405
103164.3202 at compuserve.com
Dave_Burley at compuserve.com  

Voice e-mail OK  


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 10:30:53 -0800
From: Brad Miller <millerb at targen.com>
Subject: Autoclaving

	In the last post somebody was giving advise on autoclaving and I
thought it important to point out that his advise was wrong.   I work in a
genetics lab and frequently autoclave various items.  Granted I use a
frickin' huge Amsco autoclave but the principles are still the same.  You
can autoclave closed containers or whatever you want.  The only things that
matter are Time and Temp.  If you are at a certain temp, then you have to
stay there for so long.  The higher the temp the shorter the time.  As for
pressure, this just alowes for higher temps.  Just thought that this error
should be noted.




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:08:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Tim Anderson <timator at yahoo.com>
Subject: Delirium Tremens

I found a bottle of Delirium Tremens under the Christmas tree this
year.  As I poured it, and the wonderful flowery aroma hit my nose, my
immediate reaction was to utter "Ah, Belgium!"  Well, I just stood
there with my nose in the glass for at least a minute before taking a
sip.  I took it to my wife (who was working in her studio) to taste. 
She had a sniff and said, "Ah, Belgium!"

To make a short story long, we spent much of the evening reminiscing
about our favorite vacation ever, backpacking around Beer Heaven,
sampling new beers in every town.  We didn't encounter this particular
beer on the trip, but nevertheless, the aroma took us back.

She looked at me and asked, "Where does this aroma come from?", 
unreasonably expecting me, the family homebrewer, to have the answer. 
"Uh, gulp, uh, I don't know," I replied in utter shame and humiliation.

So my question is, "Where does that aroma come from?"  I'm not into
cloning beers, but I would dearly love to get that smell into some of
my brews.  Any help or pointers appreciated.

tim

==
Please ignore the advertisement below.  Thank you.

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:15:57
From: "William W. Macher" <macher at telerama.lm.com>
Subject: Electric Stove Heat Boost - Use Steam! (Part I)

Steam Boost For Electric Stove Brewers - Part I

Judging from my rate of progress at building my steam
injected RIMS (SIRIMS ??) I conclude that I am part 
tortoise...but anyway, on Sunday I did a small experiment 
to get a better feel for how I should put together the 
steam injector that will be inserted in the RIMS 
recalculation line,  in place of the normal electrical 
heating element.

Although I brew with natural gas,  I think I stumbled 
on something that could be of help to electric-stove 
brewers who have trouble getting good rolling boils.

Let me describe what I observed and a couple simple 
tests I did to convince myself that this idea might 
have some merit:

step zero
======

I took the wife's pressure cooker and hooked a piece 
of 1/4 inch OD copper tubing to the lid.  

NOTE: If this were to be permanent,  I would do 
things differently. It is not a good idea to disable any
safety device,  even if it is only a backup device.

This pressure cooker lid has both the outlet where the
rocker weight sits (to set the maximum pressure),  
and also a rubber plug as an additional safety,  
which would blow out if the pressure built up 
excessively (like if some food clogged the outlet 
where the rocker sits).  I removed the rubber insert 
and used this hole as the point where I hooked my 
steam output tubing.  This was a temporary setup, 
and would not be recommended for permanent use. I 
would drill a separate hole in the lid for the tubing 
and leave *all* safety devices in place if this were a 
permanent installation!

Bottom line is that a steam line can be attached to
a pressure cooker lid safely without much trouble.

NEVER DO ANYTHING TO DISABLE THE ROCKER
WEIGHT PRESSURE LIMITING DEVICE. NEVER.

The following describes my experience. Your 
experience may vary (although I expect not). Use 
this information for you own purposes at your own 
risk.  In other words,  write your own disclaimer and 
insert here...

Step one
======

I simply put the end of the copper 1/4 OD copper 
tubing into a 1 liter Erlenmeyer flask ,  set the flask on 
the stove and got the pressure cooker heated up.  I put 
the weight on the pressure cooker lid in the normal 
fashion,  and steam started flowing out the end of the
copper tubing into the cold water in the flask.  

(If you want to stop steam flow out the end of the copper
tubing,  the fastest way is to remove the rocker weight
from the pressure cooker lid. Wear an oven mitt when
doing this.  The pressure in the cooker will be very small,
but it is enough to drive some steam out the outlet under
the rocker weight when the weight is lifted.)

First thought:  Boy is this noisy!  The steam was 
condensing in the water,  and the sudden collapse of 
the steam bubbles was making a sound that reminded 
me of a ram jet engine, although I am not sure why. 
I do not know what a ram jet sounds like.  Anyway,  
there was some significant noise.  Steam collapses to 
1/1600 of its volume when it turns to liquid water, so this 
noise is understandable.

I brought the water in the flask to a boil,  using only 
the steam input as the heat source. As the boiling 
point approached,  the sound,  caused by the steam 
condensing,  lessened gradually until the water boiled.
The sound changed from a popping noise to the more
subdued sound of water boiling with great vigor.

Step two
======

I took the tubing and a small (4 penny ?) stainless 
steel nail I happened to have,  and flattened the 
tubing over the nail,  so that the end was closed 
except for a small hole about 3/32 inches in diameter.

I then drilled four 3/32 inch diameter holes in the 
tubing end about a quarter inch apart and half inch 
from the end (drilled thorough the tubing twice).

The above (step one) procedure was repeated again,  
with the 1 liter flask.  The level of the sound (cause by
the steam bubbles collapsing) was reduced somewhat.

About this time I got the idea that steam from a pressure
cooker could help electric-stove brewers get a good rolling
boil.  By simply using a semi-circle loop of copper tubing,
which can be easily connected to an old pressure cooker,  
one could add enough extra heat to get a good rolling boil.  
Steam would add the additional heat required for a more 
than satisfactory rolling boil. 

In my case,  the loop was a semi-circle of soft copper tubing
that came out of the pressure cooker lid and looped over and 
down into whatever I was injecting the steam into.  Length of
the tubing is between 2 and 3 feet.  I did not even have to 
insulate the tubing or support it in any way.

A concern I had was that the condensing steam 
might add too much volume to the boil.  I decided to 
try a couple simple experiments to see if this was a 
real concern or not.

(Continued in Part II which follows....)

Bill Macher....Pittsburgh,  PA....USA



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:29:19
From: "William W. Macher" <macher at telerama.lm.com>
Subject: Electric Stove Heat Boost - Use Steam! (Part II)

Steam Boost For Electric Stove Brewers - Part II

Step three
=======

I took a four (or five ?) quart pot and filled it with 2.5 
liters of water.  I brought the water in the pot to a 
boil,  and put the weight (rocker) on the pressure cooker
to cause steam to be driven out the end of the copper 
tubing into the water in the pot.  There was not that 
much water depth in the pot,  and I had some splashing 
out of the pot due to the action of the condensing steam,  
which was doing its thing just below the water surface. 

The sound level of the steam bubbles collapsing was 
reduced, as compared to what it was with the 
Erlenmeyer flask. The additional water volume must 
have had a dampening affect. 

I reduced the boil pot flame to medium,  and the flame
under the pressure cooker to low.  I boiled for 30 min. 
After 30 min. was up,  I covered the pot and took it 
outside (32F temp) to cool.

After the water cooled, I measure the volume, and 
found that it had reduced  from 2.5  to 1.8 liters.  So 
the steam did not really add any volume to the boil.  I 
did lose some water to splashing, but not that much. I 
decided to do a larger boil and get a second measurement.

Step four
======

I took a five gallon pot,  and put in 7.5 liters of cold 
water.  I  heated the water on one gas burner,  and 
used the steam input from the pressure cooker as 
additional heat input,  thinking that any condensation 
within the pot (while the water was still cold) would 
add to the boil volume,  and help disprove the 
hypothesis that steam injection could be helpful to 
electric-stove brewers.   Too much volume increase 
would prove this idea useless.

The  steam popped pretty good into the cold water.  I 
could see steam plumes (I can't think of the correct term,
but I was reminded of feathers...) extending about 1/4 inch out 
of the holes in the tubing.  The steam condensed and 
did not bubble to the surface.

As the water temperature increased,  the water turned 
"milky looking" for a while, then because clear again. I 
assume dissolved oxygen was being driven off at this 
time. Maybe there is another reason.

(Water depth in the pot was about four or five inches,  and 
the pot is about 13 inches in diameter.  Eyeball guess, I did
not measure this.)

As the water temperature continued to rise,  the steam 
plumes out of the holes in the tubing lengthened a 
bit.  Perhaps to about 1/2 inch.  As the boiling point 
approached,  the sound of the steam bubbles 
collapsing decreased gradually.  At boiling these 
plumes lengthened to about 1.5 inches,  and things 
quieted down from "pop, pop,  pop" to the sound of 
normal boiling.  

Attempting to simulate what one might encounter 
with an electric stove,  I decreased the burner setting 
under the pot to medium,  and put the pressure 
cooker flame to medium also.  The boil remained 
rather vigorous.  A rolling boil.

This rolling boil was maintained for 30 minutes.  My 
feeling is that this may be a worst case scenario,  as 
more heat for the boil may have been coming from 
the steam than would be necessary if an electric 
burner at high heat were under the pot.  

I am not sure how to equate a medium gas flame to 
a high electric stove burner setting. In any case,  if 
my medium stetting were cooler than the electric 
stove element, then I should have ended up with 
more steam condensation in the kettle,  which would 
help to disprove the idea that steam could help the 
electric stove brewer (due to excessive volume increase).

When the 30 minutes were up,  I covered the boiling 
pot and moved it outside to cool.

After the water cooled,  I measure the volume.  It was 
250 ml short of 7.5 liters.  The net result was that 
there was no volume gain,  but a slight loss.

Conclusion
========

It is my expectation that these results can be extrapolated
to indicate what would result during a full hour-long boil.

I believe that using steam as a supplemental heat 
input to the boiling kettle could help those electric 
stove brewers who desire,  but cannot attain,  a good 
rolling boil.

The pressure cooker would simply be set directly on another 
burner (you will not burn the water) and the steam 
would transfer the heat to the boiling kettle.  It is almost 
as if you are putting the extra burner right inside the 
boiling kettle.  

The steam condensate will replace some of the 
volume normally evaporated,  so one would expect 
less volume reduction than normal.

This is really simple.

Second Conclusion
==============

A steam injected rims heater looks like it can be 
really small. Not that size matters, but my suspicion 
(at this time) is that a satisfactory chamber may only 
need to be about 3 inches long and 3/4 inches in 
diameter.

I plan on trying some different injector designs,  
perhaps even trying a stainless steel air stone as the 
injector.

Finally
=====

I am really getting excited about the prospect of my 
steam-injected rims coming together!  My pumps are 
on the way from MovingBrews...my kegs are in the 
basement with the lids cut out...my preliminary natural
gas piping additions are completed...I got my ball valves, 
thermometers, and so on...

Now if I could just figure out how to shift this body 
into second gear!

Any comments or suggestions related to shifting 
gears or steam injected rims highly welcomed!

Happy New Year!

Bill 

Bill Macher....Pittsburgh,  PA....USA




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:07:24 -0600
From: "Myers, Richard" <Richard.Myers at COMPAQ.com>
Subject: Grain Mill Attachment

Santa was nice to the wife this year and brought her the Kitchen Aid mixer
that she wanted...  When Santa was looking through the attachment catalog he
noticed that a Grain Mill was available.  Anybody have any thoughts on this
products?  Santa also noticed that the price was similar (actually a little
bit more) than the other mills mentioned here.  Is there any reason why I
would want to ask Santa (waiting is going be hard) for this mill over the
others?  Would I be better off getting a JSP, Valley, or other mill and
leaving the Kitchen Aid in the kitchen?

Richard Myers
Katy, Texas
Email: Richard.Myers at Compaq.Com


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 15:14:39 -0600
From: "Myers, Richard" <Richard.Myers at COMPAQ.com>
Subject: Mash in

I have a 3-tier converted keg setup that I built with my brother-in-law.  I
currently mash in by heating the strike water in a 5 gallon stock pot and
pouring it into my mash tun.  The problem is that my stock pot is "just
undersized" for doing ten gallon batches (I don't get to brew as much and
needed to increase my batch size to compensate).  I could heat my mash water
in one of the kegs (my mash tun is a Gott cooler), but the water outlet is
reduced and the flow seems slow (works good for sparging and draining the
kettle).

Should I get a larger stock pot or live with the slower water feed to the
mash tun?  What do others with 3-tier systems do?

Richard Myers
Katy, Texas
Email: Richard.Myers at Compaq.Com




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 17:22:25 -0500
From: Doug Moyer <shyzaboy at geocities.com>
Subject: Gram scales

Brewers,
    Back in July, I asked about inexpensive & accurate gram scales. I
received several replies personally (not to the digest.) Since then, in
the course of losing my job, I also lost access to the emails that I had
saved. Now, I have to ask the question again. (Sorry!)
    Can anyone recommend a resonably accurate scale that can measure +/-
0.25 grams, at a reasonable price? This would be for measuring out spice
additions. It would also be nice if it went up to 2 ounces (56 grams)
for measuring hops, but I could get another scale for that....

Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Salem, VA
Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 18:54:24 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Vienna lager

"Mark Vernon" <mkv at netins.net> wrote:

>2) Now that I have a thermostat I want to lager - so who has a good All
>Grain recipe and schedule for a Marzen or Oktoberfest that they would be
>willing to share? Any tips or pointers on lagering will be greatly
>appreciated (my first attempt)

Well, this is a Vienna that turned out really well (I'm sipping one right
now).  A Vienna is a little lower gravity than an O'fest or Maerzen,
perhaps, but at 1.051, this is in the range.

*7.75* gallons:

10 lbs. Durst Vienna
2 lbs. Durst Pils
1 lb. Briess Carapils

16 gallons temp. hard well water boiled w/ 2 tsp. CaCl2 and decanted.
Mashed in at 145 (149 target), heated with recirculation over 15 minutes to
149 target, overshot and hit 153, let sit 25 minutes, at which point it was
149, then raised to 158F 25 minutes, then 170F for 15 minute mashoff, then
sparged.

Boiled w/ 21 g. German N. Brwer plugs at 7.5% alpha for 70 minutes, 28 g.
German Hallertauer Hersbrucker (3.2%) for 30 minutes, 14 g. Hallertauer at
strikeout.  Fermented at 48 F with lots of repitched Ayinger yeast, done in
8 days, began reducing temp 2-3F/day to 32F., lagered only one month.

OG 1.051, FG 1.012, a bit low.  Tastes great, spicy from Vienna malt and
hops, almost like dried ginger.  A bit pale by some Vienna standards - very
pale copper.  I'll brew it again but try to keep it no lower than 149F for
that first rest to try to get higher FG.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 19:00:33 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: The effects of modification on mash recipe formulation.

Welcome to new poster sguernes at ptdoa1.al.intel.com who wonders if he should
treat Weyerman light Munich differently.

The concensus around here is no, it is fully modified and you can do a
straight infusion mash.  I've not used Weyerman, but Durst is probably
similar, and I've used it both in step infusion (40/60/70C, 55/65/70C,
decoction, and straight infusion with mashout, and it worked fine in all
cases.  I would avoid very long at protein rest  temps.  I think Noonan's
book (Brewing Lager Beers) is a good start for this.

Jeff


 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 98 17:20 PST
From: caburns at egusd.k12.ca.us (Charley Burns)
Subject: Son of Krausen - Wyeast 2308

Based on recommendations from my last competition sheets, I kept the 
temperature on this latest Doppelbock batch at 48F. I racked this latest 
batch on top of a previous Bock (1.076) yeast cake of wyeast 2308 so I 
figured there was plenty of viable yeast. I got a nice krausen within 4 
hours, bubbling away with that super sulfur aroma I expected.

After 13 days it had come down from 1.100 (nice big doppelbock) to 1.062 and 
I was getting no more than 2 glubs per minute from the airlock. Uh-oh I 
said, stuck ferment (almost anyway). The krausen was gone with about an inch 
of yeast/trub on the bottom of the 6.5 gallon carboy.

I roused the heck out of it and cranked it up to 56F. After 24 hours I have 
a new krausen and 4-5 glubs out of the airlock every minute - back on track. 
I have high hopes for this doppelbock, the aroma is incredible.

Charley (hugging my carboy to keep it warm) in subfreezing Rescue, CA



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 17:30:47 -0800
From: "Lee B." <leeb at iea.com>
Subject: Which autoclave?

Can someone recommend a small pressure cooker (brand/model) that works well
as an autoclave for yeast ranching?

I'm currently using an  "All-American No. 7" 15.5 quart pressure canner for
autoclaving. This pressure cooker is perfect for canning (holds 7 1-qt mason
jars) and has no gasket to wear out, nice guage, but it's too big for small
stuff, like yeast ranching. It is huge, takes FOREVER to build/release
pressure, etc, etc.

Thanks in advance.

____________________________________________
Lee B.
leeb at iea.com




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 20:37:21 EST
From: JPullum127 at aol.com
Subject: reusing secondary yeast

i have a secondary full of beer that has been cold conditioning for 6 weeks
 at 40 degrees. i am planning to     slowly warm to room temp, and then rack a
brown ale wort onto its yeast cake. yeast is wyeast 1338 european ale yeast.
is this still viable after being cold and under beer for so long? i likethe
idea of having so much yeast at the beginning of ferment. thanks for your
thoughts


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 00:02:55 -0500
From: Rick Jarvis <rjarvis at nauticom.net>
Subject: Re:6 packs


How bout wooden six pack holder plans?
- --
Rick Jarvis
- -----------------
Wexford PA




Return to table of contents

---