---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Show a Little Decorum..... ("Larry Renegar")
  Yeast Starters: Decanting, Yeast Nutrient and Energizer ("Mike & Lynn Key")
  While on the subject of scales... ("Pat Babcock")
  Gueuze pronunciation (Doug Moyer)
  re: Bell's Homegrown Ale (Jason Henning)
  different fermentation lengths in different sizes? ("Dann Holmes")
  Lager made from unmalted barley (Ant Hayes)
  yet another bottling question! (John Herman)
  Brew Systems Advice / Recommendations ("Bruce M. Mills")
  Caffrey clone (Henry Paine)
  homebrewing in Toronto and Ottawa ("Alan McKay")
  Open Fermentation Experiment (randy.pressley)
  Scotch Ales and Styles (Rod Prather)
  "Yes Virginia..." (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  supporting your local homebrew supply shop (Vachom)
  AHA Styles Definitions (Rod Prather)
  Honey Board Site/Carbonating/Grains/Floater Sinker Test (Joe Rolfe)
  RE:  Bell's Homegrown Ale ("Kensler, Paul")
  Bottle Lagering, New Products (Eric.Fouch)
  Open Fermentation ("Eric Schoville")
  RE:  AHA Style Guidelines ("Houseman, David L")
  Bell's Homegrown ale (dbgrowler)
  New fruit fly data point ("Gregory M. Remake")
  Semiauto-clave? / What's that taste? ("Spies, Jay")
  My kettle is black (Dave Sapsis)
  A few replys (David)" <drussel3 at ford.com>
  Inexpensive scales (Gary H Nazelrod)
  Re: Food Sealer (Jim Wallace)
  Beer on TV (Gail Elber)
  Propane Part Source? ("RANDY ERICKSON")
  re: Ballentine IPA (Bob Eddy)
  A missing hot break (kchris1)
  Color differences in batches of weizen (Ron West)
  Wheeler and Prost  &  AHA guidlines (Ken Pendergrass)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 17:22:12 -0500
From: "Larry Renegar" <longrange at rez.net>
Subject: Show a Little Decorum.....

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have only subscribed to the Digest for a short period of time. I am a
novice homebrewer and respect your advice highly, but I have one complaint.
When someone askes about brewing a beer you don't particularlly like, you
mock and make light of there inquiry as if they are unimportant. I would
expect this from children in school as peer pressure, not grown men and
women wanting to help novice brewers to achieve an art that will improve
there lives.
I, too, have received some replies that are, shall I say "smart assed,
condicending responses. Please, lighten up a little, would ya?
We as novices respect and cherish your advice more than you will know. We
are only trying to brew our favorite beer as you do. Use a little help
instead of smart assed responses, it may keep form sending the novices to
some other source for information. Do what you can to promote the art of
homebrewing.
Remember, all beer styles, no matter where they are brewed, came from
Germany, Austria or whereever the beers you like came from.
Thank you for listening and help not hurt.

Phantom1



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Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:20:09 -0500
From: "Mike & Lynn Key" <flakeys at ibm.net>
Subject: Yeast Starters: Decanting, Yeast Nutrient and Energizer

I've been using yeast starters for all grain brewing. I'm getting
conflicting info regarding them. Questions: 1). Am I supposed to decant most
of the liquid in the yeast starter before pitching it into the wort? One
author says to do this and just pitch the very bottom slurry. I've been
pitching the entire yeast starter contents; and 2). What is yeast nutrient
and what is yeast energizer? One brew shop sold me yeast nutrient which was
supposed to be yeast skeletons (?) and yeast energizer which was a white
powder (urea?).  However, another brew shop sold me yeast nutrient which was
a white powder (urea?) and yeast energizer which was yeast skeletons. Which
brew shop has it right? Thanks.
- ----
Cordially, R. Michael Key

"Extremism in the pursuit of prudence is no vice"--Greasy Fingers, Chicago
Gangsters

"I stink, therefore I offend"--Da Card, Greasy Fingers' little brother

Kool Keys' Family Website
http://www.homestead.com/chicagogangsters/Key.html




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Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:23:40 -0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: While on the subject of scales...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

After ordering (and receiving - these guys are fast!) my Tanita from 
www.scaleman.com, I spot a 0 - 16 oz (with .1 oz sensitivity) 
electronic postal scale from American Science and Surplus for a mere 
$35. Not bad: half the capacity, but also half the price of the 
Tanita...

(AS&S Item 29589 Postal Scale, 16 oz. $35.00 each Cat Volume 125 
www.surplus.com)

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan          pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor            janitor@hbd.org
AOL FDN Beer & Brewing Maven        BrewBeerd at aol.com


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Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 21:41:37 -0500
From: Doug Moyer <shyzaboy at geocities.com>
Subject: Gueuze pronunciation

Folks,
    Michael Jackson's _Great Beers of Belgium_ states, "Gueuze is
pronounced almost like cursor..." The hbd pronunciation guide (
http://hbd.org/pronunciation ) states, "GOY-za", yet the .wav sounds
more like, "HOY-za". While I would tend to defer to Mr. Jackson, I also
have no idea how he might pronounce "cursor". I know that I would sound
the "r"s. I also don't know where to go with his, "almost like".
    How about some input from those who have made the pilgrimage to
beer's holy land?

Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Salem, VA
Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity



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Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 07:55:18 GMT
From: huskers at voyager.net (Jason Henning)
Subject: re: Bell's Homegrown Ale

Hello-

In HBD2918, Bradley Sevetson asks about Bell's Homegrown Ale:
+ Is it a hemp beer, as the name implies?  Would it make you test 
positive 
+ in a drug test? 

No and no. It's homegrown hops. I believe they add fresh (not dried)
hops picked from Bell's small Michigan hopyard. Sorta like Grant's
Spring Ale.

+ I liked the fact that it was being sold in plain white six-pack 
+ containers and was very discreetly tucked away behind some of the 
other 
+ Bell's beers, as if there were something underground and illicit about 
+ its presence.

It was probably tucked away because it's over a year old. Bell's didn't
produce any this year do to a smallish hop crop. They also sell Two
Heart Ale in the generic 6-pack holders. I guessing they don't produce
enough to justify the art work and capital expense for a minimum run.
Kalamazoo Brewing Company's number is 616-382-2338 if you want more
info.

Cheers,
Jason Henning
Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
Clawson, Michigan

Live to Brew
Brew to Live

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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 03:18:49 -0500
From: "Dann Holmes" <dholmes3 at virtu.sar.usf.edu>
Subject: different fermentation lengths in different sizes?

The other day, I did my first 1 gallon batches of brew.  1 gallon of mead (3
pounds of honey, yeast nutrient, acid blend, yeast) and 1 gallon of stout (a
friend gave me a mr. brew 1.21lb. can of extract for christmas, and i wanted
to brew it, but stretching 1.21 pounds to even a 3 gallon carboy would be
ridiculous.)  I'm just wondering if the size of the batch makes any
difference in the length that fermentation takes, especially in the case of
the mead.  Is it going to take 3-5 months for 1 gallon to ferment, or will
it be done sooner?

- --Dann



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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:56:28 +0200 
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Lager made from unmalted barley

I have just read a press articles about a beer called Ranger Special Lager,
made my Castle Brewing Kenya, which is apparently made only of unmalted
barley. Castle Brewing Kenya are involved in a fight with East Africa
Breweries, as to which company invented the process.

Does anyone know whether the article is correct? How would one convert
unmalted barley into sugars?

Ant Hayes


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Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 07:39:05 -0500
From: John Herman <johnvic at earthlink.net>
Subject: yet another bottling question!

Recently I got Phil's Philler.  It works great, but it really fills!  In
fact it can fill to the rim.  How much is too much?  A couple of bottles
ended up havin an 1/8 inch headspace, but I quickly learned to get a 1/2
inch headspace.  Can I have too little headspace, or is 1/2" the right
amount?

Thanks,

John Herman



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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 08:25:53 -0500
From: "Bruce M. Mills" <TheBruMeister at email.msn.com>
Subject:  Brew Systems Advice / Recommendations

I would like to upgrade my 5 gallon all-grain brewing system to a 10-15
gallon automated system, and would appreciate any advice or recomendations
that anyone would be willing to give. I am looking for a system to purchase
which would be "pre-manufactured", and would require little, to no
construction resources such as welding, etc I am currently looking at
Advanced Brewing Technology 's Compu-Brew RIM System and Sabco's RIMS
Brew-Magic.  Any feedback on the Compu-Brew system ? Brew-Magic? I typically
brew hefe weizen and continental pilsners.  Also, I read the article "RIMS
verses Decoction, The Great Texas Mash-Off  by Louis Bonham and Andy Thomas
in BT Jan/Feb 1998.  Has anyone done any additional testing in this area ?

Advice and / or recommendations on systems would be greatly appreciated .

Bruce M. Mills
Hancock, New Hampshire





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Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 07:57:55 -0600
From: Henry Paine <hpaine at iglobal.net>
Subject: Caffrey clone

Does anyone know of an extract based clone for Caffrey Ale??

Thanks.

Hank Paine
Denton, Texas
Henry C. "Hank"  Paine, Jr.
hpaine at iglobal.net


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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:11:04 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <Alan.McKay.amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: homebrewing in Toronto and Ottawa


Greetings,

As for the brewing community in Toronto, I can't really comment because
that's 4 hours from here.  
But I have to say that here in Ottawa the situation is about as dismal as it
could possibly be.
There are 2 semi-decent shops in town, and perhaps another half dozen or so
that might be OK
for your first couple of extract batches.  But even the semi-decent shops
are nothing compared
to what I hear about from others.

And just try to get a club going!  HA!  Good luck with that.  We had signs
up in all the shops for
about 3 months and didn't get a single solitary call.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay	
Nortel Networks
Norstar Desktop Computing and LAN Solutions
PC Support Prime
amckay at nortelnetworks.com	765-6843 (ESN 395)



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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 9:20:39 -0500
From: randy.pressley at SLKP.COM
Subject: Open Fermentation Experiment

I brewed 15 gallons of an American Bitter in early December.
It was my first RIMS which I love, but that's another story.
I decided to compare Open Fermentation to Closed
Fermentation.  I put 10 gallons of brew into my SS keg Mash Tun
after removing the false bottom.  Added the yeast and covered
with the lid which was not air tight.  I put the other 5 gallons into 
a carboy with an airlock.  The original gravity was 1.034.  I used
Nottingham dry yeast, 4 packets in the 10 gallon and 2 packets in
the 5 gallon.  Since the Original Gravity was low I decided not
to skim(plus I was afraid to touch it).  I bottled both batches at the
same time and did the taste test.  There wasn't too much difference.
The Open Fermentation had a slighty fuller mouth feel and 
was a little more estery.  I liked the Open better for several reasons.
1st I liked the taste better.  2nd I can skim if I ever want to.  3rd
It gives me the advantages of the cone shaped fermentors in that
I can easily get gravity readings from the tap on the side of the 
keg.  4th when I transfer to the secondary no siphoning hassles.
5th the keg valve is in the near perfect position where it leaves the
dead yeast behind.  I can control how much brew to transfer into
the secondary by just tipping it a little.  I also split the open into
2 5 gallon secondaries and primed one with sugar and the other
with DME.  The sugar cabonated a few days quicker.  The taste
of the brew was the same, but I liked the head much better with
DME.  It was indeed creamier and lasted longer.


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Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 09:32:13 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Scotch Ales and Styles

I have long been a fan of Scotch ales.  Traquair House is not on my list.
I have tasted many.    With the exception of the malty heaviness and color
they vary wildly.   Some are uniquely bright others carry a smokiness, some
appear  (which I thought defined a SCOTCH ale) to contain peat smoked
barley.  The later I have been told is not true.   I think the problem is
that it is difficult to peg them as a style in themselves by taste alone.
The ingredients may be distinctive but like the scotch they are named after,
as varying as the lowlands, the highlands and the outlying islands.

Styles tend to peg the taste.   Unfortunately when a style isn't well
defined like scotch ale, you end up pegging to one point while not defining
any that currently exist.   Hey, try Sam Adams Scotch Ale, what a weak
offering that is.  Did he just put his Porter in different bottle?  Nah, it
isn't even that distinct!

Ted McIrvine writes :

I've never seen a recipe that tastes anything like
> classic Scottish styles such as Belhaven, Froach, Skullsplitter,
> or Traquair House.

Then Alan McKay Wrote:

There are a lot of problems with the AHA styles, and with the
judging process in general.  In many cases the people setting
those guidelines have never tasted a true example of the style of
beer they are pretending to be experts in.



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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:34:26 -0500 (EST)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: "Yes Virginia..."

 ...there is a Santa Claus." He left me most of a case of beer sitting in
the grass in the park across from my house. My wife suspects teenagers
ridding themselves of contraban but I know the truth. Unfortunately, in
addition to his unparalleled generosity, Saint Nick seems to also have a
sense of humor - it was a case of Molson Ice!

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"Graduate school is the snooze button on the alarm clock of life."
	
	-Jim Squire


 -Alan Meeker
Johns Hopkins Hospital
Dept. of Urology

(410) 614-4974
__________________________________________________________________





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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:13:20 -0600 
From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us>
Subject: supporting your local homebrew supply shop

	In HBD #2918 John Adsit recommends shelling out the extra few bucks
to buy brewing gear from your local homebrew supply shop.  I heartily concur
with this notion--within reason of course.  It's important for supply shops
to exist within the Darwinian world of the market, and I wouldn't for a
minute suggest homebrewers should frequent a shop where the owner sells
inferior goods, dispenses bad advice, cops any number of crappy attitudes,
or gouges brewers on prices.  On the other hand, the legendary
resourcefulness of homebrewers may be jeopardizing some supply shops.
Brewers who save a few bucks by eliminating the retailer and buy supplies
from wholesalers or base malt from the local micro may be slowly killing off
the local supply shop they still frequent for specialty grains and
incidentals.  
	It's a dicey situation here in the Big Easy.  Only one of the two
supply shops in the entire city carries supplies for all grain brewers.  If
BrewHaHa were to go out of business, local homebrewers would not only lose
an excellent resource in the person of BrewHaHa owner Mike "Elvis" Karnowski
but would be instantly reduced to ordering by mail or driving an hour plus
to Baton Rouge.  I gladly pay the extra 4 bucks or so on a 50# bag of
domestic 2-row that Elvis charges over what I might get if I pestered the
guys at Acadian Brewing Company.  That four bucks is just exactly as John
suggests, an insurance policy. 

Mike
New Orleans, LA


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Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 09:43:37 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: AHA Styles Definitions

Where is a good list of all the current style guide lines currently in use
by home brew and professionals.   Which set is used in the GABF.




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 10:53:47 -0500
From: Joe Rolfe <rolfe at sky.sky.com>
Subject: Honey Board Site/Carbonating/Grains/Floater Sinker Test

I check the Honey Board site, altho it has real good content, it does not 
have the info I got by mail years ago.  In the packet I got - they had 
several SF area brewpubs that gave proceedures, recipes and some blind tasting
results....It is in a box somewhere, I know I kept it but still can't find
it...

Fast Carbonation (if you talking about bottle conditioning) should done 
with a fresh yeast added at bottling time (I have to check on the amounts 
but 500K to 1M/ml), tight controls on remaining and added of fermentables 
(well mixed).  The pressure in the bottle should be up to the maximum 
levels pretty quickly (easily within a week) for a warm (>75F) referment 
and alot longer for a cool (<60F) referment which could be upto month or 
more for higher gravity. It would be strain dependent.  It is a real art - 
ahhhh.....CAMRA compliant.

If you do the mass produced route - injected C02 carbonation.  You need
to get the beer real cold - (32F).  Diffuse Co2 bubbles (as small as 
possible). You can have it carbonated in no time at all.  Get the pressure/temp 
chart and your off.  It is not CAMRA compliant, and it just does not taste as 
good (TO ME) refermented in the bottle beers. Sure is real duplicatable and
easier
tho...

Maris Otter- Is this by CRISP??....there was some CRISP malt we got at one 
time that was pretty good stuff....British tho..Tried Pauls Pale and 
Crystal once - rocky,  The MaltMill(tm) lets you know real loud an 
clear!!!, MF Pale and some darker malts were pretty good, Hugh Baird Pale 
and some darker malts.  Just did a big batch with a crew here and Weyermann 
Lt/Dk Munich - nice stuff.  Briess malted and flaked rye - real good. 
Canada Malt Pale was fairly consistent. No bashing intended.


I found the "Sinker Test" in Declerk V2. Any greater than 30 percent 
sinkers is a bad thing.


>From: John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us>
>Subject: On fruitflies and dogma
<SNIP>
>As I grow more sophisticated in my technique, I get pickier, and I'm not
>sure that's all good.  My friends rave about my last Pilsner, but I
>notice the diacetyl and feel disappointed.

It is a shame when you can enjoy your own beers, but I think alot of 
homebrewers get that way on occasion, still searching for the holy grain of 
beer.  John raises some real good points in the post, I think anyway...

Ah well happy new year to all

Joe Rolfe


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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:56:44 -0600 
From: "Kensler, Paul" <paul.kensler at wilcom.com>
Subject: RE:  Bell's Homegrown Ale

Brad,
Bell's Homegrown Ale is simply a pale ale made from ingredients grown in
Michigan (barley and hops, maybe an adjunct like wheat, I can't remember).
Bell's produces several regular beers that are distributed in standard
six-pack holders, but their limited-run and seasonal beers are often
distributed in plain white six-pack holders, with a label stuck on the ends
to identify the beer.  I suspect the discreet placement of the product was
due more to its lower demand compared to other Bell's beers, than to any
underground distribution system.

For what its worth, stick to the other Bell's beers - the Homegrown is my
least favorite.  A neat beer to try, but I wouldn't drink it often.


Paul Kensler
Plano, TX



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Date: 4 Jan 1999 10:59:54 -0500
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Bottle Lagering, New Products


HBDr's-

Kevin TenBrink- Welcome to the Midest!  How do you like the weather so far?
Need a snowshovel?
Regarding Kevins lager situation, having just brewed a Kolsch (ale yeast, but
it's traditionally lagered, eh?) what are the pros and cons of bottle
lagering?  In order to lager, I'd hafta move my SOF chiller into the garage,
and hook up to the low temp alarm on my controller and run it to a solenoid
that feeds a light bulb or some other heat source.  Or change ice every few
hours.  What about bottling, and lagering in the bottle for a few weeks in a
frige (got a dedicated brew frige on the way)?

Kyle steals my thunder in announcing:
Word from the Midwest has it that Fouch is going to start manufacturing
and marketing a new piece of sparging equipment.  He uses PVC tubing and
a condom and calls it a SLEEZYMASHER(tm).

Kyle has jumped the gun a tad.  Although I AM developing the Sleezymasher, I
can't find the right sized condoms to fit the 3/8" CPVC.  Kyle- where do you
get your King Tights?

Eric (still digging out from 24" of snow) Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood MI





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Date: 04 Jan 99 06:27:00 -0800
From: "Eric Schoville" <ESCHOVIL at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Open Fermentation

Rod Prather writes in HBD 2916 in reference to Dave Burley:  
  
"In your case, you may have excellent results because you have an  
excellent soup of airborne yeasts."  
  
To which I respond:  
  
Open fermentation has an undeserved bad reputation among   
homebrewers for causing wild yeast contamination!  
  
I sincerely doubt that the open fermentation method that   
Dave Burley uses in any way increases the risks of wild yeast   
contamination.  I also use primary fermentation, and I have   
not had any contaminated batches.  My open fermenter procedure   
is as follows.  I have a converted Sankey keg primary fermenter   
which I sterilize with steam (a la Scott Kaczorowski.).  The   
wort and yeast are then added to the fermenter, and then I   
place a loose fitting stock pot lid on top.  Then the whole   
keg goes into a chest freezer.  Depending on style, I then   
rack after primary fermentation to a closed carboy fermenter   
for secondary fermentation and lagering.    
  
For me, primary fermentation is much easier, because of my   
310 gallon batch size, and the results are excellent.  I cannot   
say that they are better than closed fermentation, because I   
have not used closed fermentation in a long time.  I encourage   
people to try and use this method.  
  
Eric Schoville  
http://home1.gte.net/rschovil/beer/3tier.html  
Flower Mound, TX  


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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:46:07 -0500 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE:  AHA Style Guidelines

Alan states "There are a lot of problems with the AHA styles, and with the
judging process in general.  In many cases the people setting 
those guidelines have never tasted a true example of the style of 
beer they are pretending to be experts in.  The only thing they've
tasted it billy bob's version of uncle chuck's rendition of the 
beer he remembers his grandfather telling him about
from back in the war."

I can state that for both the AHA and the BJCP that this statement is
patently FALSE.  While both the current AHA and BJCP style guidelines each
has its own problems, IMHO, the BJCP Style Guide Committee is in the process
of re-writing them and negotiating with the AHA for a common set of style
guidelines for homebrew competitions.  The people working on this committee
are extremely knowledgeable and are involving other experts (for example
Jeff Renner -- CAP and George Fix -- Vienna) where we can.  Perhaps the very
first set of AHA style guidelines, issues many years ago, were problematic,
but even the AHA's style guidelines have been in constant revision based on
the input from experts, mostly those outside the AHA/AOB itself.   

It is true that many judges however, are not the experts we'd all like to be
on all the styles, but they, the AHA and the BJCP are doing the best we all
can under the circumstances.  There's no way all the judges can get to Koln,
but many of us have been there and other beer Mecca's around the world.  The
best we can do is continually educate ourselves and new judges and practice,
practice, practice....

Dave Houseman


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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:03:28 -0500
From: dbgrowler at juno.com
Subject: Bell's Homegrown ale

Oooh, Brad, what a dirty mind you have!

Homegrown refers to the fact that all of the ingredients for the beer
were grown in Michigan. I bought a six pack, and it was badly infected.
Diacetyl so heavy it was slick, and it increased noticeably over the
course of a week. Others say they had better luck. Caveat emptor.

Keeping my hop stash in baggies...

Mike Bardallis
Allen Park , MI


___________________________________________________________________
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or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


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Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 11:08:26 -0600
From: "Gregory M. Remake" <gremake at gsbalum.uchicago.edu>
Subject: New fruit fly data point

Fellow brewers,

With apologies, I feel compelled to prolong the fruit fly debate.  Over
this long holiday weekend, while waiting out a Chicago blizzard, I opened a
bottle of dunkelweizen I brewed last spring.  Apparently I did a poor job
capping this one, as the cap came off too easily, and there was no hiss
from escaping CO2.  When I poured the beer into a clean glass, there was no
carbonation and it smelled like vinegar.  Upon holding the glass up to a
light, most noticeable were many small (1/8 to 1/4 inch) cigar-shaped
translucent bodies floating around, which someone else might be able to
identify, but I'll refer to as Unidentified Floating Objects (UFOs).
However, one object I was able to positively identify among the UFOs was a
well-preserved carcass of our friend the fruit fly.

The rest of this batch has not been infected, so I don't think the fruit
fly got into my starter, but only took up residence in this single bottle.
In the starter or not, I think the experience is one more data point in the
great fruit fly debate.  In this case it turned an otherwise good bottle of
beer into polluted swill.  The fruit fly, however, was delicious.

Seeking beervana,

Greg


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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:35:37 -0500 
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: Semiauto-clave? / What's that taste?

All -

The recent discussion on autoclaving all manner of things brings 2 questions
to my mind that I pose to the collective . . .

First, I have been in the habit of placing all my bottles in the dishwasher
(by themselves, with no detergent) and running it on heat dry to sanitize
them.  While a far cry from autoclaving, is this method effective?  I
normally just let them sit in the closed dishwasher until the following day
to let them cool naturally, and then cover the mouth of each one with a bit
of foil, and use when needed.  Am I wasting my time?  Should I be
iodophor-ing them or what?

Second, my last 2 batches (an IPA and a blond ale) have had an, er, *off*
flavor to them that I can only describe as *acidic* or *vinegary*
(acetobacter??), I can't tell which.  I have done nothing different to these
2 batches than any of my others which have turned out fine.  In reviewing
all of my procedures, I have narrowed down the culprit to the following;
perhaps those of you with a sleuth's eye can help me pinpoint who the
responsible party is:

1.  Priming sugar -- I have always just sprinkled the 3/4 cup directly into
the bottling bucket along with the siphoned beer and mixed thoroughly.
Could the sugar be contaminated??  It's old (~1 yr), but is double sealed in
2 ziplock bags.

2.  Old bottling bucket -- My bottling bucket is only used for bottling, and
is about 2 years old.  I can't see any visible scratches, and it is filled
with iodophor solution for at least a full day prior to bottling (the rest
of my siphoning stuff, as well as my mixing spoon, are also soaking along
with it).

3.  Repitched yeast -- these 2 batches were the 3rd and 4th repitches of a
good 1056 slurry.  I repitch on all of my batches, and have never noticed
off flavors of any kind.  The batches were repitched into the same carboy as
batch 2 of that yeast (I flamed the mouth of the carboy with a propane torch
and sanitized racking equipment for the transfer from kettle to carboy).

4.  Lactic acidified sparge water -- same as always (about 4-5 drops 88%
lactic per 6 or so gallons of sparge water).

5.  New resident airborne nasty bug in air (but it's January . . .)

This is all I can come up with.  The bottles are sanitized per the
dishwasher method above.  After batch 3 IPA, I really focused on sanitation
for batch 4 blond ale, but I got the same funky taste.  I'm on brewing
hiatus until I can figure out what the deal is.  :-(

Any help here would be appreciated.  I think I've given enough info, but if
you need more, feel free to ask me.

TIA,

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Vinegar Production Factory
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:40:59 -0800 
From: Dave Sapsis <DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov>
Subject: My kettle is black

John writes:
>Hemp is certainly in the cannibus family, but so are hops.
Actually, I think cannibus is a synonym for a 60's vintage VW microbus.
The genera in question is Cannabis, with the family being Cannabaceae.
For those wondering, I purposefully mispell all those words in my posts.

cheers,
- --dave      "Astroglide...it just doesn't get any better"



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Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 15:02:14 -0500
From: "Russell, D. A. (David)" <drussel3 at ford.com>
Subject: A few replys

Someone asked last week about small batches, 1-2 gallon sizes.  Apple
cider 1 gallon jugs, or 1 gallon wine jugs are a potential source of
glass fermentors.
- -----------------------
About the blank 6 pack carriers - "free gifts" with orders from Brewers
Resource - be cautious.  I gave mine away.  They are white and you can
decorate them, but they are poorly designed, the bottles clank around
the bottom of the carrier.  Just a word of caution.


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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:16:27 -0500
From: Gary_H_Nazelrod at tst.tracor.com (Gary H Nazelrod)
Subject: Inexpensive scales

For a really cheap scale you can make a balance scale.  Use a piece of 
dowel. Suspend it in the middle on a piece of string.  The string can be 
glued in place with Elmer's glue.  I use butter tubs on the ends tied with 
string.  Then you need some items of known weight as counterbalance.  A 
quarter(US) weighs .2 oz, a nickel weights 5g.  You can also use water, just 
measure it with a graduated cylinder, syringe or some such device.

Gary Nazelrod
Silver Spring, MD (too lazy to calculate my JR coordinates)


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Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 11:52:57 -0500
From: Jim Wallace <jwallace at crocker.com>
Subject: Re: Food Sealer

>Jay's looking for a way to seal O2 barrier bags.  

the daisy seal a meal is the way to go.  I bought mine for $1.50 at a junk
sale (they show up all the time)
I seal my bag roughly with a little extra space where there are no hops
then shake the hops to the bottom and poke a pinhole near the very top
I then squeeze the bag to expel all the air out the pinhole 
close off the pinhole with thumb and reseal
___________________________________________
    JIM WALLACE ... jwallace at crocker.com
      http://www.crocker.com/~jwallace  
___________________________________________


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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:18:23 -0800
From: Gail Elber <gail at brewtech.com>
Subject: Beer on TV

The History Channel on cable will air "Empires of Industry - Brewed in
America" on Saturday, January 9 11:00 PM - Midnight EST

Description passed on to me from some cable guide: "From Pilgrim brew
masters to early commercial ventures to today's monolithic corporations,
we'll imbibe American beer's long history; and, taste social experiments
from the past, like the Temperance Movement and Prohibition, to see how
they influence sobriety today."

Gail Elber
Associate Editor
BrewingTechniques
P.O. Box 3222
Eugene, OR 97403
541/687-2993
fax 541/687-8534




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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:27:06 -0800
From: "RANDY ERICKSON" <RANDYE at MID.ORG>
Subject: Propane Part Source?

Well, the RIMS project is going great, nearly done, and with the
1/2" MPT to 1/2" tube connector I picked up on my lunch hour,
I think I have just one design hurdle left:  How to tee off my
propane gas line to two burners.

I have a CampChef burner (35 kBTU) which I use for the boil kettle,
and a new Metal Fusion cast burner which I will use for the sparge
tank.  The Camp Chef has a 3/8" valve, male flare on the inlet side,
female flare on the outlet side.  The MF just has the male flare.

I would like to find a similar valve for the other burner, but I can not
find any type of propane connectors in the hardware stores.  I
assume it has something to do with the California liability laws, but
I don't know.  I would also like to use a couple of short pieces of
propane hose with female flare connectors on the ends, but I
haven't even seen hoses in the stores.

Am I just being dense, or have others had a problem finding
parts for propane?  Any suggestions where to look?
Anybody live in a less progressive State that would be
interested in smuggling?

Thanks all,
Randy in Modesto


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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:35:26 +0000
From: Bob Eddy <reddy at qualcomm.com>
Subject: re: Ballentine IPA

The Christmas and New Year's holidays gave me a chance to finally get
caught up on my HBD reading.  I came across two postings concerning a clone
for Ballentine IPA (HBD's # 2895 and 2896, 8-9 Dec 98) from Larry O'mahoney
and Jeff Renner. I have always referred to this beer as Ballentine XXX.
Let me start off by stating that I have been on an elusive (so far) search
for a XXX clone recipe for years, literally, and was delighted to see these
postings.  I can assure you that this will be my next brew!

I have very fond memories of Ballentine IPA from my college days back in
Hoboken, NJ (Stevens Institute of Technology) in the late 60's.  (I hate
dating myself like that, but there I go...)  I drove by the brewery in
Newark on countless occasions.  I have vivid memories of the flavor of XXX
and have been looking for a clone recipe or commercial example of a similar
beer forever, it seems.  The beer fairly shouted of hops and was my first
excursion outside the safer realms of bland, mass-produced, American style
lagers (although even they were better 30 years ago!).

The one beer I've recently found that comes the close to the unique flavor
I personally remember, is Hop Ottin' IPA from Anderson Valley Brewing in
Boonville, CA.  I wrote to the brewers there in hopes of gleaning some
clues as to their formulation.  I received a very nice message back that
said, in part..."Every time I ask Brit (the brewer) about the specifics of
the brewing process, to answer inquiries such as yours, he gets very
mysterious...and quiet. Apparently, a magician never tells!  Sorry."  All I
could get off their web page was that they use "Generous additions of
Columbus hops during the boil, plus traditional dry hopping".  No info
about grain bill, hop schedule, gravities, process notes or anything else,
for that matter. *sigh*  I don't know if XXX even used Columbus hops.
Larry's and Jeff's research and recipes don't seem to indicate they were
used.  But the flavor of Hop Ottin' seems to align with the flavor I
remember from so many years ago and I assumed it was primarily from the
hops.

Anyway, I will definitely attempt a clone based on these recipes and will
report back with my results.  Unfortunately, I can't brew too often and I
just brewed over the holidays (a Celis Pale Bock clone) so it might be a
few weeks before I brew again.  In the mean time, I'm very interested in
gathering any extraneous bits of information any of you might have on this
wonderful beer.  I'll also look through my back issues of Zymurgy and BT.
I've been a lurker on the HBD for years but have only seen a small handful
of postings about Ballentine IPA.  As Larry and Jeff know, it was a truly
great beer.  I applaud their efforts in helping to resurrect this beer.
Count me in as another cheerleader in the wings.

****************************

P.S.  My hat also is off to the wonderful resource that the HBD has become
over the years.  I love it, warts and all.  Long live the janitors, Pat and
Karl.  You guys are great!  I will lift a pint in your honor tonight.  (Oh
yeah...and I'll be putting a check in the mail to help with the hbd server
replacement/upgrade.)

Cheers,
Bob


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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 19:18:49 -0800
From: kchris1 at lausd.k12.ca.us
Subject: A missing hot break

	
		Brewers,

I really enjoyed the CAP I made back in November 
and decided to make it again  Thanks Jeff and 
ALK for your help.  I brewed it on Saturday and it 
has me a little concerned.

Recipe:
15 lb. British 2-row)  I know   
2 lb. flaked maize
1.25 qt mash water
Rests: 150 40mins, 158 30 mins, 168 15 mins
Stopped collecting wort after 11 gallons, 1.007 at 
room temp.

FWH Saaz, Bitter with Cluster and Hallertaur, and 
Saaz for aroma

Water treatment: Carbon filtered water in keg over 
night with a campton tablet in each.  Did this to 
avoid preboiling water and eat up any chlorine that 
my nose may not be able to detect.
Used this water for the mash and the mash settled 
right at 5.5 (reading at room temp not at 150)
The sparge water needed to come down quite a bit.  
I added  tsp  lactic acid and then again with 1/8 
tsp to get the pH to 5.8 (room temp reading).


 Brought it to a boil and guess what?  No hot break! 

This has never happened to me before.  There was 
a little surge of foam and that is all.  I remebering 
someone posting a while back that they had a 
similar problem when they were over acidifying their 
sparge water.    I usually take pH samples from the 
sparge water or  mash and let it cool before 
dropping in the paper.  Perhaps this is my problem.

I split the batch in half and pitched 2112 from a 
previous batch into one fermentor and 2 packets of 
rehydrated Nottingham yeast in the other.  The 2112 
batch is going strong now, but it took about 18 
hours to show foam on top.  The Nottingham batch 
has not  started yet.  Im going to rehydrate 2 more 
packets and pitch it  I tried warming up the 
fermentor and no luck.   I aerated well with O2 for 
60 seconds before pitching and wanted to ferment it 
a bit cool at 55F.    A little too cool I know. 

I appreciate your replies


Keep on hopping 

Keith
Chattsworth CA
PS. If you have not brewed a CAP, you should try 
it.  It will surprise you and your swill-drinking 
friends.



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Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 19:53:38 -0800
From: Ron West <ronwes at halcyon.com>
Subject: Color differences in batches of weizen

I just brewed an extract recipe of a Weizen for the second time.  It is
an experiment I am conducting to see what differences I can expect in
subsequent beers due primarily to some new equipment I received during
the holidays.  In other words I used all identical ingredients and
attempted to eliminate all differences in my procedures except for the
equipment.  This includes a large pan to do a full wort boil (the first
time I brewed the recipe I boiled 2 gallons of water with the syrup and
added it to water in the fermenter), a conterflow wort chiller (the
previous batch took over 8 hours to cool to pitchable temp), and an
oxygen bottle with SS airstone (I shook the #% at  out of the first batch,
but I am not convinced that the yeast had enough oxygen).  The only
other difference between batches is that after reading "Homebrewing
Volume I" I added 2 teaspoons of chalk and 1/3 teaspoon of gypsum to the
recipe.  My Pacific Northwest water is very low in calcium (18.3 ppm)
and sulfate (1.2 ppm).

What would account for the fact that with identical ingredients (plus
the chalk and gypsum) the second batch is much darker in color than the
first.  After only 2 days in the primary I don't know what it will taste
like yet, but if anything I had expected this batch to be lighter in
color than the first, due to the full wort boil.  I was careful not to
scorch the syrup, or carmelize it unnecessarily while bringing it to
boil on my gas stovetop.  Could it have been the addition of the chalk
and gypsum?  Or maybe the longer time it took to get 6 gallons of water
to boiling temp compared to 2 gallons (I had added the syrup early,
right after the water was hot)?

Ron West
ronwes at bigfoot.com




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Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 22:25:51 -0500
From: Ken Pendergrass <kenp794 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Wheeler and Prost  &  AHA guidlines

Thanks to Jim Bentson and Dan Listerman and others who responded
privatly to my question regarding the quality of the Wheeler and Prost
recipies.  I will keep trying them. One in which I'm interested is the
biere de garde which Jim reccommends. I must have been haveing a bad
beer day. I'm glad to hear that these are considered good recipes. The
stout I made is now a week older and to my suprise tastes better or
maybe I'm getting used to it. Really I think I just prefer American
stouts and porters to some of the UK brands.  There are a few more
styles of ale which could be added to the North American origin catagory
because they are now enough different to warrant inclusion.

Which brings me to Alan Mckay's comments on AHA style guidlines. In any
esoteric competition,homebrewing and duck calling for example, there are
only a few people (compared to the total number of homebrewers) taking
part in the competition.  They will tend to become inwardly focused on
brewing for themselves and may begin to emphasize certian aspects of
style without regard to weather this aspect is important out in the
"real world" to commercial or homebrewers.  Take for example
professional duck calling competitions. I have seen a couple of these
contests on TV.  What they do there in no way resembles what one would
hear in a duck blind while hunting with joe six pack. However even if my
theories are true this dosen't necessarily mean AHA contests aren't of
value.  If you can master brewing enough to follow their guidlines and
win a few blue ribbons and become homebrewer of the year. You will be
able to brew most any beer to whatever guidlines for personal
consumption.
regarde
I may have time for 1 more bottle of stout before bed.
Ken Pendergrass



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