---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Steam and cooler wall damage potential (william macher)
  Want a fruit fly in your starter, here's how. (Rod Prather)
  BEER MAY INHIBIT CARCINOGENS ("NFGS")
  Peach-State Brew-Off (wakarimasen)
  St Pats (Jack Schmidling)
  Thank to all. Boy was I red! (Rod Prather)
  Beer Color (AJ)
  Cleaning Phil's Chiller (Nathan Kanous)
  Scotch Ale/Scottish Ale (Rod Prather)
  Astringent Porter ("Michael P. Beck")
  Home Malting (Dan Listermann)
  IBU Shift While Chilling? (Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products)
  Re: Prior Double Dark & Yuengling (Jeff Renner)
  Wyeast IDs (Jeff Renner)
  Malt Stock Up ("Mark Vernon")
  Home malting ("George De Piro")
  yeast cake (Brad Trowbridge)
  Scottish Ale (Ted McIrvine)
  A different view of St. Pat's (NEWTRADBC)
  Decoction mashing ("Membership")
  pics ("Mike Allred")
  Brewery Ommegang's Yeast ("Poirier, Bob")
  St.Pats (1999)
  Sports drinks (John Wilkinson)
  Brew Pubs (Dan & Laurie)
  Prior Double Dark (pgarofalo)
  Guillotining enzymes and other questions (william macher)
  RE:open fermentation (ChrisFs)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 19:57:03
From: william macher <macher at telerama.lm.com>
Subject: Steam and cooler wall damage potential

HI all,

In HBD 2920 Jon Sandlin asks whether steam will 
melt his rectangular cooler...and if CPCV is an OK 
choice for a steam injection manifold.

If your steam source is a pressure cooker (with all 
safety devices still in operation),  and you 
are feeding the steam directly into the mash tun 
without further heating,  then the steam temperature 
will be a bit higher than the boiling point of water at 
your elevation.  This is because there is some back 
pressure in the steam line.  It will not be that much 
higher than the temperature of boiling water though.  
The actual temperature will depend upon the back 
pressure and the temperature loss as the steam 
proceeds down the tubing from the pressure cooker to 
the mash tun.

It is important to remember that when injecting steam 
into the mash tun one must do something to keep 
from overheating the mash in spots.  In other words,  
continuous mixing of the mash is necessary while the 
steam is being injected.  The steam will not bubble up 
through the mash and disperse evenly.  It will 
condense at the injection point and raise the grain 
temperature in the area of injection to the boiling 
point if continuous mixing of the mash is not done.

Just a review for new potential users of steam...
as I understand them...:-)

If you position your manifold in the plastic mash tun  
so there is some space between it and the plastic 
surface of the tun,  and you stir continuously while 
injection is occurring,  it is likely you will not damage 
the floor or walls of the cooler if they are able to
withstand the normal mash temperatures you currently use.

The real answer depends on the temperature rating of 
the plastic the cooler is made from.  Is this 
specification available?  Probably not.  If the rating 
were about 220F you would likely not have a problem 
even in the worst case scenario... 

As to whether a CPVC manifold will work for steam 
injection...Maximum temperature rating of CPVC 
pipe in one catalog I have is 180 F.   Another catalog
has high temperature CPVC rated to 212F. This is a specialty
item and something you probably do not have. Since the steam will 
likely be between 212 and 220 F,  CPVC would not 
be a good choice for a steam-injection manifold.

RobertJ's <pbsys at pbsbeer.com> recommendation:

>You may have a problem with the CPVC softening. PVC melts 
>(softens at about 140F). I think CPVC does the same at about 170F.

>I suspect you'd be better off if you make your 
>manifold from copper

is a good one. Fabricating a copper manifold is 
probably the best solution.

Bill

Bill Macher   macher at telerama.lm.com  Pittsburgh, PA   USA


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Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:02:07 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Want a fruit fly in your starter, here's how.

Jokingly someone asked me if I knew where he could get some fruit flies for
his starter because they were rather scarce in his climate.  I answered with
some off the wall joke and we had a good laugh.  WELLLLLL ! ! !   Guess what
I found.. A company that  actually sells them.  Check it out, seriously.

http://drosophila.herpetology.com/work.html

These are Drosphilia Melanogaster and Hydei Sturdivant, two types of fruit
fly, shipped to your door.  They are shipped as eggs in a medium that keeps
making more and more flies. They are genetic mutants and can't fly, they
just hop.  They are meant to be food for herps  (you know, snakes, frogs,
lizards, etc)    But we all know that they belong in yeast starters, don't
we.  Just kidding.  The site is real though.



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Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:23:57 -0800
From: "NFGS" <fjrusso at coastalnet.com>
Subject: BEER MAY INHIBIT CARCINOGENS

Thought Everyone might Like this note:


     - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

     T O P   S T O R I E S

     BEER MAY INHIBIT CARCINOGENS

     http://www.healthcentral.com/news/newsfulltext.cfm?ID=8449

     Japanese researchers have given beer drinkers something to cheer about
as they hoist a pint. Beer, they say, may protect against certain
carcinogens that are produced in food when it is cooked. Japanese sake, red
and white wines, and brandy were also effective, but whiskey was not, nor
was ethyl alcohol in the concentration found in beer. The researchers
conclude that something in beer, possibly the hops, the plant phenols or
some other component yet to be discovered, are responsible for the popular
drink's apparent anticarcinogenic powers.
     .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .


Frank
fjrusso at coastalnet.com







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Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:33:52 -0500
From: wakarimasen at mindspring.com
Subject: Peach-State Brew-Off

The 6th Annual Peach State Brew-Off, on January 23rd, is in its beer entry
phase.  Beer can be dropped off at the four Metro-Atlanta locations or the
one Athens, GA location, or shipped to: PSBO c/o Dennis Waltman, 2356
Sherbrooke Drive, Atlanta, GA 30345, from between January 6th to January
16th.

For more information, check the website:  wakarimasen.home.mindspring.com

Dennis Waltman



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Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 21:28:40 -0800
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: St Pats

"George, Marshall E." <MGeorge at bridge.com>
 Opinion Poll - Does St. Pats Care About It's Customers? 

"I must preface this with the fact that I am not a customer of St. Pats,
nor am I affiliated with them in any way.  But, I find this lack of
respect to customers to be terrible....

Frankly I find your comments and Lynn's response a perfect non sequitar.

The complaining letter was a bridge burner from beginning to end and
her response was about as patient, explanatory and dignified as one
would expect.

I have heard many complaints about Lynn's treatment of customers but
this is the first I have seen spelled out and I now understand the
problem.  Cliches aside, the customer is frequently wrong and only
the best of sales people are able to keep their cool.

You folks just have no idea what happens to this business around
Christmas time and how we sometimes feel when we have to take out
time from producing product explain to phone callers that we can
not ship a mill so Honey can have it under the Christmas tree or 
a dozen to a dealer who should have ordered months ago.

Three cheers for Lynn.

js 

- -- 

Visit our WEB pages:     http://user.mc.net/arf

ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday




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Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 23:39:10 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Thank to all. Boy was I red!

Thanks to all for the comment on my turning red.  I think I have it under
control.
I got a ton of responses and I know I didn't answer most of them. Several of
you mentioned alcohol flush or some reaction to alcohol.  My ABV is around
5%, and I've never had the situation with any other alcoholic beverage. I
drank a Bass Ale and a Sam Adams later that night with no reaction.   I
think Robert Waddell  may have hit it.  It is highly possible that I
produced some fusel alcohols in the early fermentation.  The beer is very
young.  I'll let it sit in the secondary for 4 or 5 days then bottle it.
I'll let everybody know if it changes.   The other possibility is hopping.
I think the IBU is quite a bit higher than I planned. The hop tea may have
extracted some chemicals I'm not used to.  If it is the hops, which I doubt,
the final product will have the same affect.



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 06:47:14 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Beer Color

Lars Bjornstad had some comments and observations on beer color. What a
fascinating subject!  Unfortunately, its also a complex one if any
degree of precision is required.

Perception of color depends on lots of things such as the physical
properties of the beer in particular the relative degree to which light
passing through the beer is absorbed at different wavelengths which in
turn depends on the length of the path through the beer as well as its
chemical makeup. Also in the physical domain in the spectral energy
distribution of the light source. But color perception is actually a
psychological thing and the measurement and description of color
represents a near unique marriage between the arts of the engineer and
the psychologist. Perceived color depends on the particular individual
(extreme outliers are persons who are "color blind"), on other colors in
the visual field (background) , the size of the colored object being
observed and  and the color of other things which the observer has been
looking at recently (adaption). Thus determination of beer color by
observation is iffy and brewers have tried to come up with instrumental
methods not subject to the shortcomings of the flesh. The ASBC method is
based on experiments done about 50 years ago with  34 American and
Canadian light beers (the darkest was about 5.97 SRM !). The spectral
absorbtion is measured at a wavelength at which the beer absorbs a lot
of light (430 nm). Another measurement is taken at 700 nm. If the ratio
of the absorbtions at the two wavelengths is too small the sample is
considered either atypical or turbid and the SRM value is considered
invalid. It is not surprising given the foregoing that the SRM method
(and similar EBC method) have some limitations. The worst flaw in my
opinion is that one finds beer pairs in which the lighter appearing beer
has the higher SRM value.

Even with it's limitations the SRM scale is surprisingly good at telling
you how light or dark a beer is when viewed via transmitted light in a
glass of average diameter (5 cm). SRM correlates quite well with the so
called CIE Luminance.  If I plot  SRM vs CIE luminance of a 5 cm sample
(light quality: CIE illuminant C - another detail which must be
specified) of beer (sample size: 65 beers) and fit a straight line to it
the agreement is quite good. With a little scaling and offset I can
obtain a "pseudoSRM", as I call it, which is quite close to the actual
SRM value (for example Lars's post cited Guiness  as having an SRM of 65
which I measure at 61.5 giving a pseudoSRM of 69.3). The pseudoSRM
values do not ever assign higher values to lighter beers.

By adding two additional meaurements (the CIE chrominace values) we have
a complete discription of the actual color of the beer. For Guiness
these values are x = .7190, y = .2180 which can be transformed into
other terms which say that the color of Guiness is red  (dominant
wavelength of 640.2 nm) and 99.9% pure (highly saturated). This
statement evokes surprise (and sometimes outrage) but anyone who is
either surprised or outraged should pour some Guiness in a glass of
about 5 cm diameter and shine a penlight throught it. It is a beautiful
deep, pure red (as are all beers if the path is long enough). But it
doesn't look red when they set the glass in front of you, does it? It
looks black as you typically see it (mostly  by reflected light) and so
all this about 5 cm depth, illuminant C etc. is pretty meaningless
except in a laboratory setting or unless you always drink your beer in a
5 cm glass and always look at it while holding it up to the light.

I do advocate use of the CIE system for description of beer color simply
because so many other industries use it, because it is not befuddled by
beers with weird (compared to the 34 standard) spectral distributions
(try to measure SRM on a Kriek) because it gives a complete color
description rather than just a light/dark indication and because it is
measured using the same instrument that is used to measure SRM. But it
has its shortcomings.

But you know, now that I think of it, I haven't had any calls from the
ASBC, MBAA, EBC or any other organization soliciting my opinion on
this.



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Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 07:54:54 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Cleaning Phil's Chiller

Greetings everyone.  I've got a friend that is concerned about his new CF
chiller.  Seems he's had a couple of batches go south on him since he
started using it.  He's concerned about sanitation. I usually just run a
gallon or two of "near" boiling water through mine after I'm done chilling
the wort.  Turn it a zillion times to make sure that there is no water or
wort left in it and cap it until next time.  Next brew I just run a gallon
or so of boiling wort through it, recirculate that,  and then turn on the
water.

I haven't had any noticeable problems with this.  I still get good flow and
haven't noticed any off-flavors I would attribute to poor sanitation.  How
do you folks clean / sanitize your CF chillers?
 
Thanks.
nathan in madison, wi




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Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 02:52:49 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Scotch Ale/Scottish Ale

Spencer, please note that the BJCP guidelines refers to the style as having
"A faint smoky character from the use of small amounts
of peat-smoked malt is sometimes present."
The AHA guidelines makes no mention of smoked malt or a smokey flavor.

Perhaps I am wrong  but many years ago, before I even heard of the AHA, I
was told that the distinction between Scottish Ale and Scotch Ale was that
the later contained smoked barley.  Remember that in Scotland, Scotch refers
to the drink, not to the place of origin.  Thus the name, Scotch Ale.  Any
Scots out there to qualify this.

> As typically made in Scotland, neither has peat-smoked malt.  Any
> "smoky" character is likely to come from the yeast, not the malt.
>
> That's not to say that we homebrewers can't do whatever we want.
>









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Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 10:06:40 -0800
From: "Michael P. Beck" <stilts at usa.net>
Subject: Astringent Porter

I transfered my first all-grain brew to the secondary last night and it
tasted a bit astringent.  Here's a rundown of what I did:

Not Yet Name Porter

Recipe for 2.5 gallons:

3.8# British 6-row (a "gift")
 .4# 60L British crystal malt
 .25# chocolate malt
 .5 oz of Norther Brewer leaf hops (9 AAUs)

I mashed for 90 minutes at 152 degrees with 1.5 gallons of very soft
water treated with 1/4 tsp of gypsum.  Sparged with 2 gallons of 168
degree water.  Brought wort to boil, added hops after break and boiled
for 60 minutes.  Chilled with immersion chiller (wow, was I impressed
with that!).  Pitched 1 qt. starter made from dry M&F ale yeast (another
"gift").  

I had a nice vigorous fermentation within 8 hours (I went to bed after
pitching and when I woke up there was a 2 inch thick krauzen head). 
Fermented for 6 days at 66 degrees.  Transfered it last night to my old
Mr. Beer 2.5 gallon plastic wannabe barrel thing (finally found a use
for it).

Now, I know that too high a sparge water can add an astringent taste but
that certainly was not the case...I had trouble keeping it at 168.  I
did notice a few (and I mean "few") husks in the cold break.  That
probably contributed to the astringent taste.  Im just curious as to
what I can do to bring the astringency down.  I know age will help, but
is there anything else I can do to bring the tannin level down?


cheers,
mikey.
BSSC/121


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Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:50:23 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Home Malting

Clifton Moore writes:

<I am in possession of a large quantity (by home brew standards) of
Harrington malting barley that was grown here in interior Alaska this
past summer.


I can not for the life of me contrive a steeping schedule that will get
these devils to sync up in their germination.  Some seeds wish to bolt,
while others are content to sit there for days prior to first chit.>

Poor boy....

I have malted off and on for a number of years.  I am going through a
process similar to Clifton's now with buckwheat.  It won't germinate 
evenly
either.

Barley needs a peroid of dormancy after it is harvested before it will
sprout.  My grain comes from Briess and it has always germinated well. 

This may be his problem.  Mary Ann Gruber of Briess suggested a 
germination
test when I questioned the age of my grain.  (I bought too much and have
had it around for three years - just made a wit with it and got 28 pts / 
lb
/gal - not bad for heimgemacht)  Count out 100 corns on a sheet of paper
towel, cover with another towel and wet.  After a day or two, count the
ones that didn't sprout.  You should get at least 90%.  I am told that
freezing the seeds can help speed the dormancy process.  


As for seeping, I use an Rubbermaid cooler with a Phil's Phalse Bottom (
surprise!).  I pump compressed air through the bottom for 24 hours , 
drain
the water and repeat for another day.  I pile the grain on a box screen 
and
stick a thermometer  in it.  After a day or two the temperature will 
start
to rise.  I then thin the pile too keep the temperature down around 70'F.
 

The grain must be turned at least daily or it will form a solid brick of
roots and corns.  After about 4 or 5 days the roots are about 1.5" long 
and
the sprout is 2/3 to 3/4 along the length of the corn ( use a razor to
split the corn). 


I haven't worked out a proper kiln yet.  ( I did the oven thing and still

hear about it to this day - I thought it smelled nice)  My malt is air
dried "wind malt."  I am told that it is used in wit beers.  I just set 
my
box screen on two box fans and block in the sides with cardboard.  It 
takes
about two or three days for the malt to get crunchy.  Then I put about 5
lbs at a time in a denim bag ( wife's pant leg ) , wait for to go to her
mothers and chuck it in the family dryer for about 45 mins.  Shake it out

on the screen box to remove the rootlets and "viola" malt!

Crystal malt can be made with the undried malt ( called greem malt) using
 a
microwave.  Just put it in a mason jar with a saucer for a lid and
microwave as low as possible for about 30 minutes.  It is really cool to
see the crystals!

Dan Listermann   dan at listermann.com




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Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:15:46 -0500
From: Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products at humphreypc.com
Subject: IBU Shift While Chilling?

My apologies for posting a brewing question, but ...

It has occurred to me that while counter-flow chilling my wort, the hop
utilization may be increasing beyond the desired level.  Is hop bitterness
still being extracted at sub-boiling (but hot) temperatures?  I assume that
hop volatiles are still cooking off, reducing their flavor and aroma
contribution (except when FWHing?)  I typically brew in twelve gallon
batches, so the time difference between carboy 1 of wort and carboy 2 could
be about 1/2 hour.

Has anyone found a reliable way of adjusting their recipes for this?


Mark (damn, it's snowing again!) in Kalamazoo




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Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:56:31 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Prior Double Dark & Yuengling

>ThomasM923 at aol.com remembers Prior Double Dark with more detail than I did
>I remember it had a bit of a toasted or
>roasted flavor. The darker malt flavors were very subtle, however. You 
really
>had to look for it.

One thing I didn't mention in my suggestions for cloning Prior DD and
Yuengling is that many dark American beers were (are?) colored with caramel
syrup such as Porterine (tm).  This allows for the very dark color of DD
with the mild flavor such as Thomas remembers.  If we put enough dark malt
in to get the color, we may end up with too much dark malt flavor.

>From http://brewingtechniques.com/library/styles/sidebars.html:

"What exactly is Porterine?  According to Bernard Black of Mangel,
Scheuermann & Oeters, Inc. (Huntingdon Valley, Pennsylvania), Porterine "is
a trade name of a caramel color  derived strictly from corn syrup. This
product was originally formulated by The U.S. Malt Company to provide
colloidal compatibility with malt beverage protein." Mangel, Scheuermann &
Oeters is the current trademark holder and continues to supply Porterine to
the brewing industry. Porterine's function today is still to convert
regular beer into porter.  Some brewpubs and microbreweries use the product
to make color adjustments to their beers as well. Porterine has a dark
brown color (878 L) and a specific gravity of 1.386."

I have made caramel in the past from table sugar to color rye bread.  It is
a bit dangerous, so wear long sleeves, gloves and eye protection.  Maybe a
welding face guard.  Put 1/4 cup of sugar in a thick pot and heat until it
melts.  After it melts, it will begin to boil.  Stir (a wooden spoon works
well) to prevent burning (carbonization).  When it reaches desired
darkness, quench it with water.  tThis is the dangerous part - it will
splatter, especially if you do it too slowly and that stuff is 450F and
sticks like napalm! - don't blame me if you don't wear protection and burn
yourself.  It's also messy, be sure to clean up after yourself or you'll
lose beer bullets.  Stir to dissolve the hardening caramel.  If you don't
stir while it's hot, the caramel will stick to the pot, costing more beer
bullets.

I don't know if you could pressure cook a thick corn sugar syrup (in a
separate pot in the pc) until it darkened enough.  I think I'd just accept
a little more flavor or a little paler color than the original.  Or try to
get Porterine.  Do any HB suppliers carry it?

Jeff

The only problem with this is that it can have a bitter flavor which I
suspect commercial products don't have.

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:30:35 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Wyeast IDs

In separate posts I wrote:

>I think there is some old Christian Schmidt yeast knocking around.

>Weihenstephan 34/70 (YeastLab L31Pilsner, don't know which
>if any Wyeast)

Thanks to Scott Murman for pointing me to his yeast ID page
http://www.best.com/~smurman/zymurgy/yeast.html where Wyeast 2272 is
identified as Christian Schmidt and 2124 as W34/70.  2272 would probably be
a good authentic choice for a CAP.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:00:15 -0600
From: "Mark Vernon" <vernonm at goportable.com>
Subject: Malt Stock Up

I received a malt mill for Christmas (thanks hun). So I was wondering what
malts those of you out there buy in bulk. I brew mainly British Ales (IPA,
ESB) but am going to get in to lagering (got a thermostat for the freezer
for Xmas also). Interested in doing o'fest, Maerzen (sp), etc.

Also where do you source your bulk malt... mail-order, hb store?

Thanks for the help

Mark
mkv at netins.net



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Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 10:58 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Home malting

     Hi all,
     
     Clifton is having some trouble malting his Harrington barley.  In 
     particular, he is getting very uneven germination and a 
     disappointing % of germinating seeds.
     
     I have malted Harrington and found it to be a quick and 
     relatively even germinator.  Problems you may be having:
     
     1.  Dormancy:  the seeds need to experience an appropriate period 
     of dormancy before malting can be attempted.  This time should be 
     about 2 months.  If you try to malt grain without giving it an 
     appropriate dormancy period you are likely to experience highly 
     variable germination.  It should be stored cool and dry during 
     this time.
     
     2.  Improper storage of the barley:  the seeds are alive and 
     respiring.  If they have too high a moisture content (>20%) and 
     are kept warm (>5C; 41F), the barley can only be expected to 
     survive a couple of weeks (Kunze presents a table of barley 
     survival rates on p.113 of _Technology Brewing and Malting_).  Of 
     course it won't all die, but you will lose a lot of viability and 
     weaken some of the seeds so that they do not germinate quickly.
     
     If the barley is stored in a large mound the interior will get 
     much warmer than the outside (due to heat of metabolism) and it 
     can be expected that seeds from the interior will suffer more 
     damage than those in the cooler part of the pile.  This would 
     lead to uneven germination and poor viability.
     
     In an extreme case (very moist barley) the heat of metabolism can 
     keep the barley warm enough to support mold and fungal growth, 
     even if the surrounding air is relatively cool.  The seeds are 
     then ruined.
     
     3.  Not enough removal of CO2 and/or supply of oxygen during 
     germination.  This is dependent on your steep schedule and 
     equipment.  I believe that this is possibly the most important 
     factor in achieving good germination.
     
     The germinating seeds are undergoing frantic metabolic activity 
     and generate a lot of CO2 and need a lot of O2.  Bubbling air 
     through the water is not adequate to meet the seedling's needs 
     (Kunze, _Technology Brewing and Malting_ p. 118).  It is best to 
     minimize the time the barley is covered with water.
     
     I got good results (very fast, fairly even germination) by 
     steeping the barley for 2-4 hours (completely changing the water 
     every hour and pouring the barley between buckets to ensure good 
     mixing and aeration) and then draining the water and performing 
     an "air rest" for about 20 hours (rinsing and turning the seeds 
     every couple of hours to keep them cool and well-aerated; yes, I 
     even got up in the middle of the night to do this; yes, I take 
     this stuff too seriously).  The seeds will absorb the moisture 
     that clings to them during this air rest.  Don't allow the 
     barley to dry out.
     
     After the first air rest the barley is again covered with water 
     for a couple of hours and then given another air rest.  According 
     to the books, it is towards the end of this second air rest that 
     you should see rootlets forming.  My home-malting experience was 
     different:  I had rootlets growing during the first air rest!  The 
     folks at Briess that I was talking with postulated that my 
     overly-anal attention to keeping the barley well-aerated was the 
     reason for this rapid germination.
     
     Some people may recommend the use of gibberellic acid to 
     stimulate germination.  Gibberellic acid is found in small 
     amounts in barley seeds, and is a metabolic product of Fusarium 
     mold.  It can be used to shorten germination time, but it will 
     not help you achieve more even germination.
     
     Gibberellic acid promotes the formation of proteolytic enzymes 
     faster than the diastatic enzymes, so care must be taken not to 
     overdose the barley or it may end up producing a darker wort than 
     desired (overly intensive protein breakdown forms excessive amino 
     acids which are than available to form melanoidins which will 
     deepen beer color).
     
     I don't like the idea of using additives in stuff destined for my 
     beer, so I wouldn't use gibberellic acid.  Maltsters in Germany 
     are not allowed to use it in the production of malt for 
     Reinheinsgebot beers, and they do just fine without it.  We can, 
     too.  In my admittedly limited experience, intensive aeration 
     will produce quick and even germination.
     
     If you do want to use it, it is best applied to the chitting malt 
     after the last air rest at a rate of 30-80 mg per metric ton of 
     barley.  How you do that is up to you.
     
     Clifton mentions that he soaked the barley in iodophor because he 
     was concerned that micobial activity was hindering germination.  
     While there has been work done that links microbial activity with 
     reduced germination, soaking the barley in halogenated santizer 
     is likey to spoil its flavor (Siebel notes).  It may also inhibit 
     germination; I don't know for sure.
     
     As a final note I will mention that it is useful to track the 
     moisture content of the barley throughout the malting process.  
     This is easily done:  accurately weigh a barley sample.  Spread 
     it in a thin layer and gently bake it (~100C, 212F) for a short 
     time.  Weigh it again.  Bake it some more.  Weigh it.  Continue 
     this process until the barley is at a constant weight (should 
     take an hour or less).  If you crank the heat too high you will 
     start to scorch the barley and it will lose weight as it burns.  
     Don't do that.
     
     The difference between the original weight and the dry weight is 
     the amount of water you drove off.
     
     If you need more info about malting at home search the HBD 
     archives for some posts of mine from early last year.  I know 
     that a few others out there (like Jeff Renner) have also malted 
     at home, so they may be able to add more info.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:46:25 -0500
From: Brad Trowbridge <trowb at tsp.sheridan.com>
Subject: yeast cake


I have a question about using the yeast cake from a prior batch.  I
quickly browsed through the archives and read that several people do
this, but couldn't find any specifics about this process.  First off, I
currently have an IPA in the fermenter which used wyeast 1056 american
ale, and would like to use the yeast cake for my next batch.  I plan on
cooking up my next batch the same day I bottle, so there won't be any
storage time involved with the yeast.

My first question concerns procedure.  Do you just dump the fresh wort
into the fermenter with the yeast cake and all the gunk left over from
the previous batch?  I wouldn't think this would be a good idea,
especially since my next beer is going to be a cranberry ale, and I
don't want it to be overly hoppy tasting.  Any thoughts?

Can I simply scoop out the yeast cake and place it in a sanitized
container while I scrub and sanitize my fermenting bucket?  Should I do
anything to the yeast while its waiting (add water or wort or anything)?

Will the fact that I fermented a strongly hopped IPA with the yeast have
any effect on the taste of my cranberry ale?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Brad


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Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 11:45:36 -0800
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Scottish Ale

What about Skull Splitter and New Caledonian MacAndrews Ale?  These have
a moderately peaty taste that is strong enough that I cannot believe
that the peat flavor is from yeast alone.  I've used the W-Yeast
Scottish strain literally dozens of times, and its smoky quality is much
more subtle than that found in these Scottish beers.

Ted McIrvine
  
> The "Scottish" ales are the malt-accented "bitters" of Scotland.
> "Strong Scotch" ale is the heavy, sweet, alcoholic brew.  It's grouped
> with "English Old Ale" in the guidelines.
> 
> As typically made in Scotland, neither has peat-smoked malt.  Any
> "smoky" character is likely to come from the yeast, not the malt.
> 
> That's not to say that we homebrewers can't do whatever we want.
> 
> Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>


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Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:42:02 EST
From: NEWTRADBC at aol.com
Subject: A different view of St. Pat's

"Lynne, I guess maybe we all could do business elsewhere if you want to
treat your customers this way.

Marshall George
Glen Carbon, IL"

Exactly how did Lynne treat the customer poorly?  She apologized for the
shipping delay, which was only partly her responsibility.  And she truthfully
told the customer that if they found better business elsewhere they should
take it there, and that would be best for both parties (the customer and St.
Pat's).

Hell, I think it's pretty good that a store is WILLING to apologize, yet not
willing to kiss the ass of a customer that has already pretty clearly i
ndicated they're taking their business elsewhere.  If a business believes has
done everything properly then there is nothing more to do, you can't satisfy
anyone.

I have ordered from St. Pat's on occasion, especially since they picked up the
moravian and Weyerman products   I have ALWAYS received the orders promptly.
ONCE, they sent the wrong wyeast.  They also promptly sent the right yeast to
me when I called (and didn't ask for the other back).  Since support of locals
has been a recent thread, let me note that now that my local supplier [Flying
Barrell, Frederick, Md] can get the Weyerman, I haven't ordered from Pat's in
a little while.

Sorry, I don't buy that this customer has been treated poorly at all, and I
think you're slamming a business unfairly.

T. Bergman, Frederick MD.


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Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:15:39 -0600
From: "Membership" <mship at mhtc.net>
Subject: Decoction mashing

I ventured into decoction land for the first time, wishing to compare the
method to infusion for maltiness, etc.  As I have already done this, the
following query will be for future use...We'll see how this Dunkel turns
out.

I am using very well modified malts - S/T for DWC Munich is currently 45.  I
will thus forego a protein rest, doing only a beta-glucanase/enzyme rest
(1.18 qt/lbs) and infusing for a beta rest at 140 (per George Fix) at 2.01
qts/pound, then decocting to 158 and mashout, respectively.

Two questions:

1.  Too thin on the beta rest?

2.  I wish to have a fairly dextrinous wort, so I want 20 minutes at 140 and
40 minutes at 158.  Easy enough with infusion, but when decocting, even if I
pull the decoct portion as soon as I infuse to 140 (which I won't - I would
assume it would be better to rest the rest you want, then pull), by the time
I raise the decoction to 158, rest, boil for 30 minutes, the main mash will
have rested considerably longer than 20 minutes at 140.  How does this not
result in a very thin, extremely high maltose/maltotriose ratio?  Looking at
Richman, Noonan, and others, and at the Weihenstephan "classic" triple
decoction, their rests seem wildly long to me, the naif... (2 hours at 122,
140, etc...).  Is it because pulling the decoction, by removing the thick
mash, effectively slows the main mash reaction to nil, until the decoction
is put back?

Thanks for any and all help - Enjoy the news!

Paul Smith
Spring Green



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Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 11:22:00 -0800
From: "Mike Allred" <mike.allred at malnove.com>
Subject: pics


Am I the only one who would like a web page set up with everyone's   
picture on it?  I would love to know what Alan, Jim L., etc.  look like.   
 Does anyone else think that this would be a good idea...waste of time...   
?  Comments please.  



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Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:24:38 -0600 
From: "Poirier, Bob" <Bob_Poirier at adc.com>
Subject: Brewery Ommegang's Yeast

Greetings!!

A few weeks ago I e-mailed a question to the good folks at Brewery 
Ommegang in Cooperstown, NY, regarding their yeast - whether the 
same strain is used for primary fermentation as well as at bottling 
time.  With the permission of Randy Thiel, the Brewmaster at Brewery 
Ommegang, I am forwarding his reply to the HBD:

<snip>
> Our yeast strain was purchased from a yeast bank at the University of
> Leuven in Belgium.  If it is used at other breweries, we are unaware and
> prefer not to know anyway (to avoid endless comparisons).
> The same strain is used for fermentation and bottle-conditioning.  Two
> notes on usage for homebrewing:
> 1)  Pitch copious amounts of yeast to ensure a healthy and clean
> fermentation.
> 2)  Keep your fermentation temp at ~75F to ensure a complete
> fermentation.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Randy Thiel
> Brewmaster
> Brewery Ommegang
<snip>

Good luck!!

Brew On & Prosit!!

Bob P.
East Haven, CT
bob_poirier at adc.com ( at work)
bpoirierjr at worldnet.att.net ( at home)


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Date: Fri, 08 Jan 99 17:33:44 -0500
From: 1999 <kenhoutz at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: St.Pats

- -- [ From: 1999 * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] --

I've tried to E-Mail St.Pats and twice it has been returned on a 3 hour time
out.

I'm using:

		stpats at wixer.bga.com

Anybody see a mistake in the address ?

Thanks,

Ken Houtz     Port Charlotte, Florida


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Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:38:47 -0600
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: Sports drinks

I found Victor Farren's post concerning drinking beer after exercise very
interesting.  As it happens, I stumbled on this myself recently.  Thanksgiving
morning in Dallas there is an eight mile race downtown called the Turkey Trot.
I have been running it every year since 1975 and usually by the time I get
home I have stiffened up so I can hardly hobble out of the car to the hot
tub.  I usually sit in the hot tub and have my first beer of the day.  This
past Thanksgiving I ran the Trot as usual along with my son and
daughter-in-law.  Actually, "along with" is only in the sense of being in the
same run.  Their 24-28 year advantage age wise seems to help them get to the
finish line considerably ahead of me.  Anyway, this year we were going
straight from the run to my daughter's house for Thanksgiving dinner.  Since I
don't expect others to know what my latest beer whim is, I had a cooler of
Guinness and Fuller's ESB in the truck.  When we got in the truck after
cooling off my son said something about a beer being nice at that point.  I
had him fish out a couple of Guiness which we sipped on the way to my
daughter's.  Lo and behold, when we arrived and I got out of the truck, no
stiffness or soreness!  I thought I had discovered a new alternative to the
hot tub.  As with so many things, though, I had finally stumbled on something
that a lot of others already knew.  I had meant to post my discovery to HBD
but, as with so many other things in my life, I never got around to it.
Scooped again!

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - john.wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com


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Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 17:50:03 -0500
From: Dan & Laurie <djp at icubed.com>
Subject: Brew Pubs

I am traveling to Springfield MA for a week.  Can anyone recommend a
good Brew Pub. Also as I am driving  and can bring brew home  I'd
appreciate suggestions on local micro brews to sample for possible case
purchase.

Thanks,
Dan



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Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:26:02 -0500
From: pgarofalo at juno.com
Subject: Prior Double Dark

I responded privately to Kevin regarding my knowledge of Prior Double
Dark, but seeing the level of interest, I thought I'd share some
information with the forum:

First off, Prior Double Dark was made by F. X. Matt (now Saranac) in the
70s and 80s, and maybe even further back. I have no knowledge of its
having been made in the Philly area, but of course I could be wrong. It
was, until very recently, a draft-only product, and one with a cult
following (as Thomas points out). It was probably voted the best dark
beer in the late 70s because it was the *only* dark beer around (not that
it wasn't a good one...)!

It may please you to know that it not only is still made (under the name
Saranac Black Forest), it is also available in bottles. Check out
www.saranac.com for more information. The beer is labeled as a "Bavarian
black beer" (can you say "Schwarzbier?").

The brewery's web page gives precious little detail except the gravity
and what food to pair it with. The label is a little better, proclaiming
that "it is brewed with a delicate balance of slow kilned caramel and
two-row malt, as well as five varieties of imported and domestic hops."
The one I had last night had a definite hop bitterness, with a lightly
hoppy aroma and a hint of caramel. The flavor is very clean, with a hint
of caramel, but not too much.

By the way--it has been written that the Saranac/Matt lager yeast is a
descendant of the Christian Schmidt strain, so that seems on the mark. As
for corn, I'd say no from the taste, though they do have a cereal cooker
at the Saranac brewery...

Cheers,

Peter Garofalo
Syracuse, NY--an hour from the Saranac Brewery, and a good 6-8 hours from
Jeff Renner.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


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Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 20:28:44
From: william macher <macher at telerama.lm.com>
Subject: Guillotining enzymes and other questions

Hi all,

OK, maybe I am the only one, but:

A week or so ago,  Steve Alexander brought up the subject 
of shearing enzymes with RIMS pumps, or something to 
that effect.  This started my mind ticking...

I have been thinking about enzymes a bit and realizing how 
little I really understand.

How big are these critters anyway?  Can anyone give some 
physical measurements or some indication of typical size 
of the enzymes of interest for brewing beer?  I am trying
to get an intuitive feeling for the size of the knife needed
to cut an enzyme in pieces.

And we know enzymes are denatured at various 
temperatures.  What is the actual mechanism?  Do they 
dissolve?  I mean, get mushy and just fade away?  What 
actually happens to them as the temperature goes above the 
threshold they are able to survive at?

I assume we carry the enzyme carcasses to the boil kettle 
during the sparge.  What effect do they have on the 
finished beer?

I stand up to be chastised with the "Oh yee of little faith"
chant...

 ...but why have I failed to pick up the answers to these 
simple questions in my reading of the HBD, some of the 
archives, and the books on brewing I have accumulated?

How fragile are these buggers anyway.  Temperature can 
kill them...shear forces may cut them to pieces...can I 
devise a way to smash them into oblivion?  At this point, I 
just can not even think of the right way to search the 
archives to find some potential answers!

All comments highly welcomed.  I really would like to 
learn more about this subject!

Gee...I hope I am not the last one to know :-)

Bill

Bill Macher   macher at telerama.lm.com  Pittsburgh, PA   USA


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Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 00:33:51 -0800
From: ChrisFs at pacbell.net
Subject: RE:open fermentation

Eric wrote:
  
Open fermentation has an undeserved bad reputation among   
homebrewers for causing wild yeast contamination!  
  
I sincerely doubt that the open fermentation method that   
Dave Burley uses in any way increases the risks of wild yeast   
contamination. 
[and a bunch of less relevent stuff that I don't feel like retyping]

I am continually intrigued by the Lambic method of open fermentation. Can
anyone give any hints on what to do, if I wanted to take advantage of the
local wild yeasts ?

I tried this once where I juyst took the wort and left it out uncovered in
the back yard for 24 hrs. I made another batch in the normal way. They
both can out pretty much the same, though the wild batch was more watery
with less flavor

Chris


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