---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Fermenters (1999)
  St. Pats (mike megown)
  Correction to alcohol formula (Louis Bonham)
  Re: Alcohol determination by refractometry [long] (Jeff Renner)
  St. Pats in Austin ("Richard Scott")
  Midwest Ingenuity- 1st "lager" ("Eric Fouch")
  Home malting, help requested (Jack Schmidling)
  kraeusen balls ? (VQuante)
  Re: Classic American Pils (Jim Wallace)
  Re: St Pats ("Rob Ball")
  Directory of homebreweries on the web... (Jean-Sebastien Morisset)
  Malt data search ("NFGS")
  Re: Scottish Ale or Scotch Ale ("John A. MacLaughlin")
  Samichlaus Bier?  Eisbock? ("Brian Dixon")
  yeast washing ("terence tegner")
  Taste profile of Alt (Dan Cole)
  the flaming of suppliers (TWOC)
  Re: Cleaning Phil's Chiller ("Matthew J. Harper")
  Re CF Chiller Sanitization (RobertJ)
  Re: IBU Shift While Chilling? (RobertJ)
  Cleaning Phil's Chiller ("Danie deVilliers")
  Mash Tun Design ("Danie deVilliers")
  re: Guillotining enzymes (David Whitman)
  Re: Prior Double Dark (Jeff Renner)
  Prior Double Dark ("Mercer, David")
  Stupid Brewing Tricks (Matthew Arnold)
  Decoction mashing / enzymes / authenticity of e-mail ("George De Piro")
  Re: Brew Pubs (Mark Renaud)
  Fruit Fly elimination (David)" <drussel3 at ford.com>
  Plastic Fermentors from St. Pats. (Badger Roullett)
  Morgans Crystal Syrup (Eric.Fouch)
  Beer as a sport drink (it never did die) ("Alan McKay")
  pictures of brewers ("Alan McKay")
  Oakland, CA (Spencer W Thomas)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 09 Jan 99 07:31:01 -0500
From: 1999 <kenhoutz at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Fermenters

- -- [ From: 1999 * EMC.Ver #3.0 ] --

Bill asked:

>I would like to find out how others do there primary >fermenting. 

Bill, I use glass carboys.  I transfer by siphon.  I like the carboy caps
with two ports because I start the siphon with CO2.  If I am going to
collect the yeast I follow it down an inch or so with the CO2. 

Before transferring to secondary I fill the receiving carboy with CO2 and
then extend the siphon hose well down into the receiving carboy to avoid
aeration.

Ken Houtz


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Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 08:31:19 -0500
From: mike megown <magobrew at erols.com>
Subject: St. Pats

George Marshall posted a forwarded email complaint about St Pat in Texas

yesterday.  I think this complaint is an out of line slam of an
established and reputable business (many happy customers have posted to
HBD).
  I'm sorry I have to disagree with this statement.  I also have order
ONCE and only ONCE from St. Pats.  I did a bulk buy of kegs 16 to be
exact.  When they arrived to my house they looked like they had been
pulled from a mud pit, well that's ok with me.  They were supposed to be
pressurized, well again most were.  But I found 2 that had holes in the
sides of them, and 1 of the holes had a black marker circle around it
and writing that said "NO GOOD"!!!!!But they shipped to me any how, the
other one might have gotten the hole in shipping don't know.  Well I
called St. Pats to tell them about the 2 bad kegs and to hopefully have
them send 2 more, the reply I got was SORRY NOTHING WE CAN
DO!!!!!......now what type of business is this, I pay $16 a keg plus the
shipping from Texas to VA then 2 are broken and I get a
sorry...........  So for all you people that are happy with St. Pats
that fine, me I'll never deal with them again, for that is not a
business they are running at all, and George Marshall whas dead on fro
the post he put up, xmas or not we are the customers and don't deserve
to be treated like that.  I run a customer based program and the
customer is ALWAYS right!!!!!!

Mike Megown
Fredericksburg, Va.......are you guys happy I posted my name!!!!!!!




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Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 09:40:26 -0600
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at phoenix.net>
Subject: Correction to alcohol formula

Hi folks:

George Fix caught a typo in the alcohol formula I recently posted --
specifically, the last term in the equasion was should have been negative (as it
was in the examples given).  The correct formula is:

A = 1017.5596 - (277.4 x SG) + RI ((937.8135 x RI) - 1805.1228)

Where:    A         =   % alcohol by weight
               SG      =  Specific Gravity of sample  at  20C
               RI       =  Refractive Index of sample  at  20C

Louis K. Bonham



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Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:00:17 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Alcohol determination by refractometry [long]

Thanks to Louis Bonham <lkbonham at phoenix.net> for his geeky post, most of
which I won't try to tackle.  I do have a question.  I've interited a
beautiful Japanese refractometer from my wife's lab (declared surplus by
her boss who said to throw it out!).  This is designed to be used on urine
for SG and protein (it's called a protometer, as a matter of fact).  I have
found the scales to not give reproduceable results (they aren't directly
useful) on different worts of the same SG and wonder if variable amounts of
soluble wort/beer proteins might throw the readings off.  After all,
dissolved proteins change RI enough to be usable in urine analysis.

Any thoughts?

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:22:17 -0600
From: "Richard Scott" <rscott57 at flash.net>
Subject: St. Pats in Austin

I echo Paul Kensler's remarks.  St. Pats (no affiliation, I'm just a
customer) has been a good mail order source & good information resource
(good catalogue) for me.  While we have several fine HB retailers in the
Dallas/Ft.Worth area (and I try to rely on them for supplies), it is also
nice to find quality mail order services.  Also, I understand that St.Pats
opened a new (and quite robust) HB shop (location #2, I think) in Austin.  I
suspect that added to the chaos of their December workload on top of the
Christmas seasonality.  I look forward to visiting it in the future.

I encourage every website owner/operator to provide feedback about their
good experiences with retail and mail-order resources for homebrew supplies,
equipment and ideas.  I think this adds a lot of value!

Best Regards,

Richard Scott
Coppell (Dallas) TX




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Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:49:31 -0500
From: "Eric Fouch" <fouches at iserv.net>
Subject: Midwest Ingenuity- 1st "lager"

HBD-
My latest round of jury-rigging involved:  Hooking up the muffin fan in my
Son of a Fermentation chiller to the low temp alarm on my controller and
mounting the fan in the lid of the chiller.  Then I attached the muffin fan
(via a 2 liter pop bottle with the top and bottom cut out) to the dryer
vent hose (the dyer exhaust is vented through filters into the house during
the winter).  What this does is allow cold Michigan air from the outside
through the vent hose and into the chiller.  When it gets too cold, the fan
kicks on and pumps the cold air back outside (the lid is vented to allow
house air to enter the chiller as make-up air).  It took a little trial and
error get the right combination of propping the outside vent grille open
and setting the hysteresis on the controller alarm (4 degrees F) to get a
good balance.  
I'm thinking of calling it a Cold Fermentation Bastard.  Or maybe a
VentMaster ChillBuddy T (TM).  
Anyway, I am controlling at 58F (outside temp's about 10F) with a Kolsch
going into it's second week of fermentation.  This is my first attempt at a
Kolsch (I used Wyeast Kolsch) , and I understand it should be (or is
traditionally) lagered.  At what temp should this assumedly ale yeast be
lagered?  I shouldn't have much trouble maintaining 30-35F for the next few
weeks.

Thanks

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery


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Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 20:57:42 -0800
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Home malting, help requested

Clifton Moore <cmoore at gi.alaska.edu>


"I am in possession of a large quantity (by home brew standards) of
Harrington malting barley that was grown here in interior Alaska this
past summer.


"I can not for the life of me contrive a steeping schedule that will get
these devils to sync up in their germination....

"The big boys would just reject the lot and let the farmers sell it on
the feed market.  I, on the other hand, wish to figure it out.

There is nothing to figure out and I suspect the reason you have that
large quantity has something to do with the problem.  The grain is
obviously damaged beyond utility for anything but feed.

If the grain will not germinate near 100%, it is useless because that
which does not germinate, rots and makes rotten tasting beer. That is
an even more serious problem then the variation in germination time. 

js




- -- 

Visit our WEB pages:     http://user.mc.net/arf

ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK..... New Every Monday




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Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 03:57:38 EST
From: VQuante at aol.com
Subject: kraeusen balls ?

Hi!

Just read in a book concerning Austrain breweries, that Hubertus-Braeu in Laa
(Austria) uses so called "kraeusen balls" (in German: Kraeusenkugeln) to
divide the bad tasting substances in the kraeusen from the fresh beer.

Anybody out there, who's able to explain that? What material is used? How does
that work? Is it possible to use similar technique in homebrewing?

Thanks for the help.

Volker R. Quante
Brunnenbraeu Homebrewery

Brewing and working in Warsaw / Poland, but definitely a German Homebrewer


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Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 09:15:41 -0500
From: Jim Wallace <jwallace at crocker.com>
Subject: Re: Classic American Pils

Rice is Nice .. Clean flavor .. 
My original recipe ala Bill Giffen
I have just finished another batch (2nd in 4 months .. this is an easy
drinking beer and goes FAST)
I just use the cheapest short gran I can find at the SuperMart and chunk it
up in the mill .. it needs a pretty long boil though to break it down.

>From: "Chuck Mryglot" <cmryglot at Progress.com>
>I've brewed the CAP with flaked maize 3 or 4 times and like it a lot.  I've
>read somewhere (here or in some of the BT articles) that using corn was an
>east coast formulation and using rice was a west coast formulation.   What
>has been the experience with using rice?   What form of rice have people
>used.  I seem to remember reading here a while back that Jeff 'CAP' Renner
>was experimenting with rice.   Jeff?

___________________________________________
    JIM WALLACE ... jwallace at crocker.com
      http://www.crocker.com/~jwallace  
___________________________________________


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Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:43:27 -0500
From: "Rob Ball" <robball1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: St Pats

 I strongly agree with Lee's post about St Pats!
Everyone has trouble around the holidays,I recently ordered their 
3-level system and could not be happier! On  3 seperate occasions I 
have spoken with the owner and been very pleased with everthing I 
have ordered from St.Pats over the last 5 years,they are about the 
only mail order company I use along with my local guy.True I could 
use someone closer than Austin Texas but Im sticking with the people 
that have taken great care of me !!


 ...
Take Care
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
              Rob Ball
    robball1 at mail.earthlink.net
    Way to old to grow up now!!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


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Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:57:33 -0500
From: Jean-Sebastien Morisset <jsmoriss at axess.com>
Subject: Directory of homebreweries on the web...

I've posted this info. to r.c.b. a few weeks ago, but I figure readers
of the HBD might be interested also...

I compiled a directory of all homebreweries on the internet (25 to
date). The directory contains thumbnails, a short comment/summary of the
site and an index. I'd like to keep it current, so please let me know if
there are any sites missing. Thanks.

    Homebrewery Design Pages
    <http://www.axess.com/users/jsm-mv/brasseurs-mv/homebreweries.html>

Later!
js.
- --
Jean-Sebastien Morisset, Sr. UNIX Admin <mailto:jsmoriss at axess.com>
Personal Homepage <http://www.axess.com/users/jsm-mv/jsmoriss/>


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Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 12:08:49 -0800
From: "NFGS" <fjrusso at coastalnet.com>
Subject: Malt data search

Looking for a place on the net or a book recommendation that has malt
values:

Color  EBC kg/l

100%  Extract    deg.Plato kg/l


Frank
fjrusso at coastalnet.com





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Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:52:02 -0500
From: "John A. MacLaughlin" <jam at clark.net>
Subject: Re: Scottish Ale or Scotch Ale

Both "Scottish" and "Scotch" are English mispronunciations (and therefore
misspellings) of the word which is properly spelled " Scot's " when you mean
one Scot and " Scots' " when you mean more than one.  The extra spaces in
the above quotations are there to help make it clear that there is a
terminal apostrophe in the plural form.

All in favor of having a spelling thread to rival the pronunciation or
clin*st
threads, POST!






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Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 22:18:19 -0800
From: "Brian Dixon" <mutex at proaxis.com>
Subject: Samichlaus Bier?  Eisbock?

I recently heard that Samichlaus Bier will no longer be made.  Can't
remember the history, but had the impression that it used to be Samichlaus
Brown, and they changed the name to just Samichlaus Bier when the brewery
got bought out?  Or some such thing.  Anyone know anything more?  I'm
wondering if I'll be able to continue getting this beer that I love...

On a similar note, my favorite (and only?) Eisbock is also rumored to be
going away.  I know it's not E.K.U., but I think it used to be, then some
other brewery bought the brewing rights to it ... but I can remember their
name.  Anyone?  If you know the 24% abv Eisbock that I'm talking about, I'd
like to hear if that one is going away soon too...

Thanks,
Brian



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Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:47:29 PST
From: "terence tegner" <tegbrew at hotmail.com>
Subject: yeast washing

Hi there from the southernmost tip of Africa.  I have a question for all 
the micro-biologists in our midst.  In the now famous De Clerck volumes 
from Siebel he quotes in volume one, page 405- Washing with a 1% 
solution of tartaric acid has been recommended for removing wild yeasts. 
In volume two, page 606, he quotes - Culturing in the presence of 
tartaric acid, which inhibits the development of culture yeast etc.  
This description is for testing for wild yeasts.
Now I,m confused, in the one instance we use tartaric acid to wipe out 
the wild yeast yet in the next instance we use tartaric acid to wipe out 
the cultured yeast.
Can anyone clarify this for me please? 
Regards
Terence Tegner aka Phail Ale

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:46:35 -0500
From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: Taste profile of Alt

I have just sampled my attempt at AlK's Alt recipe (pasted below) and not
having ever tasted an Altbier, I am concerned about the flavor profile that
I am getting. 

The flavor:
upfront: malty/little sweet from the all munich grain bill
middle: fruity (from the Wyeast 1338 yeast?)
back: bitter (40+ IBU's)

Tha fruitiness surprises me quite a bit, but I've never used 1338 before
and understand that it is quite fruity normally.

Is this fruity flavor a true characteristic of the style, or should I have
chosen another yeast or done something different in my processes?

Dan Cole
Roanoke, VA
Star City Brewers' Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity/


                           SUDS Recipe Report                        Page:  
 1
01/11/1999 06:40:49     Alt - 12/13/98

   Category         :  Dsseldorf-style Altbier 
   Method           :  Full Mash
   Starting Gravity :  1.052
   Ending Gravity   :  1.013
   Alcohol content  :  5.0%
   Recipe Makes     :  2.5 gallons
   Total Grain      :  5.75 lbs.
   Color (srm)      : 23.1
   Efficiency       :  60%
   Hop IBUs         : 42.7

Malts/Sugars:
  5.00	lb.	Belgian Munich           
  0.75	lb.	Belgian Aromatic         

Hops:
 1.00	oz.	Spalter Select 	 5.7%	90 min

Desired Grain/Water Ratio: 1.25 quarts/pound
First Mash Temperature: 152F
Add  2.36 gal of water to yield  2.5 gal of wort

Notes:
1/4 tsp lactic in sparge
O.G. 1.052
Wyeast 1338XL
Fermented 63F
Racked to secondary 72 hours
Completed fermenation at 63F, then dropped temp to 40F for 1 week
Bottled 12/27 F.G. 1.021

malty up front, fuity in the middle and then bitter at the end.


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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:00:37 +0800
From: TWOC <twoc at ois.net.au>
Subject: the flaming of suppliers

Greetings All,
As an owner of a home brew shop I have read with interest, the various
complaints, and replies about suppliers in this trade. I have always
believed that for every unpleasant customer there is about a thousand or so
really nice people.The replies to the "Great St. Pats Debate" seems to bear
this out, as it apears that most homebrewers/amatuer brewers are pretty
understanding types.Sure, we "brewshop" owners don't always have the exact
product a customer may want, but often we have the constraint of limited
recourses,& the dreaded "Use By Date".

Two thoughts, though.  (1) Great advertising for St. Pats.A real bonus
                       (2) Does Lynn give leasons. I would love to be able
to give such a cool reply

regards from roy in Western Australia



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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:35:50 -0500
From: "Matthew J. Harper" <matth at progress.com>
Subject: Re: Cleaning Phil's Chiller


I've used my CF chiller many times, and follow this method (most of which
came
from perusals of the digest in the first place...)

While the brew mashes I run sanitizer through it, followed by boiling water

I don't turn on the cold water right away when running the work through,
I let a little run into a pot first as an extra sanitation step (since it's
boiling...)

Then I run the wort through


Flush with hot hot water
Flush again with the sanitizer (Idophor in my case...)

*Sometimes* I'll follow again with some boiling water, depending on if
I decided to over-prepare sparge water.

Haven't been bit yet by it.

Relax, Be Anal about your chiller, have a home brew. :-)

 -Matth

Matthew J. Harper
Principal Software Engineer
Progress Software Corp.
Nashua, New Hampshire
matth at progress.com

Sometimes you're the windshield - Sometimes you're the bug



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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:46:48 -0500
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Re CF Chiller Sanitization

nathan in madison, wi. wrote: 

How do you folks clean / sanitize your CF chillers?
Thanks.
____

Following are the instructions we provide with the MAXIchiller. If your
chiller has a rubber outer hose I would not recomend the oven & am not sure
about boiling.

Cleaning:
We recomend you flush out the chiller after use with hot water. We then
drop it in a 3-5 gal bucket of B-brite for 10 mins & flush again with hot
water. Drain (holding the MAXI upright at an angle and rotating helps to
drain it completely), allow to dry, seal & store.

Sanitization:
We drop it in a bucket of iodophor for 20 mins & flush with hot water prior
to use.

You can also drop the MAXIchiller in a pot of boiling water (your HLT can
be used during brewing). Be carefull when removing, it will be 212F & can
cause burns! 

Some customers immerse in water and dry in an oven at 350F  for 20 mins.
(This will kill anything). Remember to let it cool before handling.

Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://www.pbsbeer.com


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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:46:50 -0500
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Re: IBU Shift While Chilling?

Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products at humphreypc.com wrote:

It has occurred to me that while counter-flow chilling my wort, the hop
utilization may be increasing beyond the desired level.  Is hop bitterness
still being extracted at sub-boiling (but hot) temperatures?  I assume that
hop volatiles are still cooking off, reducing their flavor and aroma
contribution (except when FWHing?)  I typically brew in twelve gallon
batches, so the time difference between carboy 1 of wort and carboy 2 could
be about 1/2 hour.

Has anyone found a reliable way of adjusting their recipes for this?
____

This question has also occurred to me. I suspect that hop utilization does
increase somewhat, but I'm not sure & will leave that to someone more
knowledgeable in the area.

I also brew in 12 gal batches & fill 2 6 gal carboys. To insure they are
the same I fill both simultaneously. The line out of the CF chiller is
divided and runs into both carboys

Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://www.pbsbeer.com


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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 05:57:45 PST
From: "Danie deVilliers" <ddevilliers at hotmail.com>
Subject: Cleaning Phil's Chiller

>Greetings everyone.  I've got a friend that is concerned about his new 
CF
>chiller.  Seems he's had a couple of batches go south on him since he
>started using it.  He's concerned about sanitation. 

>How do you folks clean / sanitize your CF chillers? 

I use a small pump to pump the wort through the CF chiller. 
My set-up is so designed that I can also pump the sparge
water through the CF chiller into the mash tun. This means that I am 
pumping water at 80 degrees Celsius (176 Fahrenheit) through the CF 
chiller (while I am sparging) for at least an hour and I believe 
this help in sanitising my CF chiller.

Danie de Villiers
Gauteng, South Africa


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:01:29 PST
From: "Danie deVilliers" <ddevilliers at hotmail.com>
Subject: Mash Tun Design

I need some help in designing a mash tun. 
If I aim for a final volume of beer of 100 litres (26.4 US Gallons), 
what is the optimum dimensions of the mash tun?

The way I see it is that I need to have about 110 litres (29 US Gallons) 
of beer in the fermenter and about 120 litre (31 US Gallons) of wort in 
the boiler. 

The grain bill should be about 25 Kg (55 pound) and I should aim for 
mash bed, 
which is at least 150 mm (6 inch) deep.

Will a mash tun with a diameter of 600 mm (23.6 inch) work and should 
it be at least 70 Litres (19 US Gallons) big? 

I just want to make sure about the procedure for doing a step mash.
I am thinking of using a copper manifold in the mash tun and a gas 
burner to heat the mash tun. Scourging should not be a problem 
if I stir the mash while slowly heating the mash tun. Will 
this work or is there a better way of doing a step mash.

I will appreciate it if some one could help in designing a nice
mash tun. Is there anything else what I should consider in a mash
tun design?

TIA
Danie de Villiers
Gauteng, South Africa

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:39:59 -0500
From: David Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com>
Subject: re: Guillotining enzymes

Bill Macher has a morbid fascination with torturing enzymes :-)

>I have been thinking about enzymes a bit and realizing how 
>little I really understand.
>
>How big are these critters anyway?  Can anyone give some 
>physical measurements or some indication of typical size 
>of the enzymes of interest for brewing beer?  I am trying
>to get an intuitive feeling for the size of the knife needed
>to cut an enzyme in pieces.

Barley alpha-amylase is a protein (amino acid polymer) of molecular weight
of about 44,000.  I haven't seen a crystal structure, but while the enzyme
is made up of a linear chain of amino acids ("primary structure"), it
almost certainly is curled up into a fairly tight ball ("tertiary
structure").  Depending on pH, ionic strength and what experiment you do,
you'll measure different sizes for that ball, but based on the molecular
weight, the diameter is probably on the order of 10 nanometers (0.01
micron) or so.  Yeast cells are about 5000 nm (5 microns), and a human hair
is roughly 100,000 nm (100 microns). 

Cleavage of polymers in pumps is well known.  The area around the pump
shaft and seal can have amazingly high shear fields. Chains aren't cut, but
instead pulled apart.  To maintain Bill's analogy, it's not a guillotine,
but more like breaking the victim on the wheel.

>And we know enzymes are denatured at various 
>temperatures.  What is the actual mechanism?  Do they 
>dissolve?  I mean, get mushy and just fade away?  What 
>actually happens to them as the temperature goes above the 
>threshold they are able to survive at?

Extended heating or shear can cleave the chains into lower molecular weight
pieces, but initial denaturing is mostly just randomizing the tertiary
structure.

The balling up of the enzyme isn't random, it is carefully folded in a very
specific way during production by the yeast.  This folding makes pockets on
the enzyme that fit the molecule the enzyme is supposed to work on, and
bring functional groups on the enzyme into position to work on the molecule.

Heating or shear randomizes the folding, destroying that carefully arranged
structure. The enzyme starts out in solution, and is still in solution
after denaturing, but it's just not functioning properly.  Imagine taking a
finely crafted mechanical swiss watch and hitting it with a sledge hammer.
Chances are after the first few hits it's still in one piece, but isn't
working too well.  If you hit it hard and often enough, you can break it
into small pieces, which are even less effective at telling time.

>I assume we carry the enzyme carcasses to the boil kettle 
>during the sparge.  What effect do they have on the 
>finished beer?

They are part of the medium molecular weight proteins in your beer,
contributing to mouth feel and head retention.



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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:04:36 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Prior Double Dark

Pete Garafalo <pgarofalo at juno.com> writes:

>First off, Prior Double Dark was made by F. X. Matt (now Saranac) in the
>70s and 80s, and maybe even further back. I have no knowledge of its
>having been made in the Philly area, but of course I could be wrong. It
>was, until very recently, a draft-only product, and one with a cult
>following (as Thomas points out). It was probably voted the best dark
>beer in the late 70s because it was the *only* dark beer around (not that
>it wasn't a good one...)!

I have a copy of the 1978 book mentioned (The Great American Beer Book by
James D. Robertson) and it definitely says that PDD was brewed by Schmidt
in Philadelphia.  Doesn't make it so, of course.  It also has a picture of
a label, and I remember buying it in bottles here in Ann Arbor perhaps 20
years ago, so I don't think it was draft only.  Perhaps it was after Matt
acquired it, whenever that was.

>From p. 190:  "Edward Street in Philadelphia is still the home of
Schmidt's, but the operation takes place on a much grander scale, the firm
having acquired many famous eastern Pennsylvania brand names and expanded
to a second brewery in Cleveland, the old Brewing Corp. of America plant
bought from Carling National."  This reminds me of the life of stars, which
become huge and bloated just before they collapse and die (I'm speaking of
astrophysics, not Elvis!).  It lists 19 Schmidt beer brands, inlcluding
Kodiak Cream Ale, Valley Forge Old Tavern Ale, Prior Double Dark and Prior
Double Light Beer.

It says that Matt's was called the West End Brewery then.  Their reported
lineup at the time was Utica Club Pilsner Lager Beer, Utica Club Cream Ale,
Maximus Super Beer, Matt's Premium Lager, Fort Schuyler Lager Beer and
Billy Beer (!), which was reported as "totally different from Billy Beer of
Falls City, this brew seems slightly similar to Fort Schuyler."

How much has changed in only 20 years!  On the other hand, the demise of
all of these regional breweries and brands probably took with them far less
variety than we've (re)acquired the last 10-15 years with micros and
brewpubs.  I do lament the loss of these breweries and brews, as similar as
many of them probably were from one another (I remember many of them), but
they weren't making CAPs in all those failing breweries in 1978, after all.

I read that last year the US quietly surpassed Germany in the number of
breweries.  There's lots of bad micro and bp beer being made out there, but
at least it isn't endless indistinguishable variations of American bland
fizzy pale lagers.  Now if only we can get them to recover the baby that
was thrown out with the bathwater and get some real CAPs and other American
classics with taste brewed commercially again.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:02:37 -0800
From: "Mercer, David" <dmercer at path.org>
Subject: Prior Double Dark

In HBD2924, Peter G. wrote: "First off, Prior Double Dark was made by F. X.
Matt (now Saranac) in the
70s and 80s, and maybe even further back. I have no knowledge of its
having been made in the Philly area, but of course I could be wrong. It
was, until very recently, a draft-only product, and one with a cult
following (as Thomas points out)."

- ---

There must have been more than one brewery turning out Prior DD, as I very
clearly and fondly remember drinking bottles of it with my dad at the Half
Note in New York City in the late 60's. (My father also introduced me to
Ballantine XXX IPA back then. Son of a son of a beer geek.) Anyway, Prior,
Trommer's (another NYC-area brewery that has either disappeared or morphed
into another - does anyone know which?) and McSorley's dark - which was
contract brewed for them by Ballantine, and available only on draft at the
bar - were the only domestic dark beers I can remember from that period in
the NYC area. My memory of the taste of Prior has not survived as intact as
my memory of tasting it, but it was definitely not a 'strong' porter, and
was a lager, not an ale. Apropo to Jeff Renner's earlier information I think
I remember reading a few years back that Prior did use Porterine. 

I remember Trommers much more clearly. The regular lager first truly malty
domestic lager I can remember drinking. I have some Budvar at home and, even
with the *much* more aggressive hopping of Budvar, I can still resurrect
memories of Trommer's when I drink the latter. It's the grainy, malty,
slightly oxidized (probably from HSA) flavors that they share.

Dave in Seattle


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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:19:13 GMT
From: marnold at ez-net.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Stupid Brewing Tricks

To add a little levity, I thought I would share last night's brewing experience
with you. Starting at 2 P.M. I began to bottle my Cinq Cents clone (BTW, I
think I hit it on the head!) which went rather uneventfully until 4 P.M. This
is when things got interesting.

A friend came over because I was going to show him the wonders of all-grain
brewing. It would be a Dunkel. 3/4 of the way through mash-in I remembered that
I forgot to crush the pound of Melanoidin malt I was going to put in. So after
I got done with mash in I quickly ground it (on a different friend's Corona)
and added it to the mash.

After ordering pizza, I began the sparge. The run-off was stunningly
chunk-free. When I was getting close to the volume I wanted (or so I thought)
the mathematician in me realized I needed 28 quarts to make the seven pre-boil
gallons I needed, not 30. No problem, I'll just boil longer. Then I checked the
gravity: I figured that I got 50% efficiency. What? I knew that the homebrew
shoppe's mill (mill brand name withheld) seemed to be ill-adjusted, but I am
unfamiliar with what a good crush should look like so I lived with it. Maybe
DWC Munich can't convert itself?

In the end, I only managed to boil it down to six gallons after an hour and
forty-five minute boil. I had to add two pounds of DME to get the gravity into
style range. I almost hope this beer doesn't turn out well because I'll never
ever be able to replicate it!

The really sad thing is I can't even blame it on mid-brewing drinking--I only
drank Pepsi and Vernor's (or maybe that's the problem?!?).

Thought you'd enjoy my little misadventure,
  Matt

P.S. The St. Pat's thread has been roaring on and off on r.c.b for quite some
time. It would be good for it to go back there (or away in general). FWIW, I
ordered once from there, spoke to a very helpful woman (don't know if it was
Lynne), and my stuff arrived as scheduled. I probably won't order much from
there simply because shipping from TX to WI is murder.


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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:16 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Decoction mashing / enzymes / authenticity of e-mail

     Hi all,
     
     Paul asks about decoction mashing schedules, wondering how he can 
     make a dextrinous wort with all those long, low temperature 
     rests.
     
     You can't!  The enzymes are hard at work in both mashes.  My 
     earliest Hefeweizens were quite headless because of the >1 hour 
     rest at 122F (50C) during the decoction.  A long rest in the beta 
     amylase range will produce a very fermentable wort, even if the 
     temperature of the mash is raised to over 158F (70C) when the 
     decoction is returned.  There is not all that much starch 
     liberated during the decoction (another consequence of the high 
     modification level of modern malts), so don't count on getting a 
     lot of dextrins from starch converted after the decoction.
     
     If you want to make a dextrinous wort skip the rests below about 
     155F (68C).  If you want to decoction mash and make a dextrinous 
     wort, you could try resting the main mash at about 155F, pull the 
     decoction after 10-20 minutes, bring it to a boil, then return it 
     to the main mash to hit mash out (~165F, 74C) and rest until the 
     mash is iodine negative.
     
     If you are concerned that the temperature of the main mash will 
     get too high when adding back the decoction you can cool the 
     decoction off before adding it back to the main mash.
     ----------------------------
     Bill asks about the general nature of enzymes.  Hopefully I will 
     write this in a manner that is understandable to non-chemists:
     
     Enzymes are proteins.  Proteins are made of individual amino 
     acids that are strung together in long chains.  These chains are 
     usually bent.  The amino acid sequence determines how the chain 
     will bend.  Sometimes bonds will form between amino acids on 
     different parts of the chain or even to amino acids on a 
     different chain.  This enables proteins to form very stable, 
     complex structures.
     
     Enzymes, which are catalysts, speed chemical reactions by 
     reducing the energy needed to induce the reaction (known by the 
     clever moniker "activation energy").  Their complex structure 
     enables them to fit a particular substrate in an exact way, so an 
     enzyme will only catalyze a specific reaction.  Any change to the 
     enzyme's shape can render it unable to bind to the substrate (and 
     thus make it useless as a catalyst).
     
     Heat can change the shape of an enzyme by breaking some of the 
     bonds that support its structure.  This is called "denaturing."  
     Shear forces can also alter the shape of large molecules like 
     proteins, effectively denaturing them.
     
     As hundreds of RIMS users will tell you, they achieve 
     saccharification just fine despite the shear forces that are 
     formed in a centrifugal pump.  Evidently, the shear forces 
     produced by your average RIMS aren't enough to hurt the enzymes 
     in the time it takes to mash.
     
     The degree of acidity also effects the shape of a protein, 
     because of the way in which different atoms in the protein will 
     ionize at different pH values.  That is why brewers are concerned 
     with the pH value of the mash; it must be in the range that is 
     optimal for the enzymes to do their thing (5.0-5.8 will work; 5.3 
     is considered optimal).
     ---------------------------------
     The St. Pats thread is disturbing to me.  A person posted a 
     letter from an anonymous party and the reply the anonymous party 
     allegedly received from St. Pat's.
     
     How do we know any of this really happened?  How do we know that 
     somebody at St. Pat's really wrote that letter?  I can write an 
     obscene letter and post it here, saying that it was written by 
     Charlie Papazian and nobody could know for sure if he really 
     wrote it or not!
     
     Posting private mail such as the St. Pat's response is poor 
     etiquette.  It's also of no value because nobody can be certain 
     of its authenticity.  Such letters are best ignored.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:19:35 -0500
From: Mark_Renaud at nmh.northfield.ma.us (Mark Renaud)
Subject: Re: Brew Pubs

Dan & Laurie write:
>I am traveling to Springfield MA for a week.  Can anyone recommend a
>good Brew Pub. Also as I am driving  and can bring brew home  I'd
>appreciate suggestions on local micro brews to sample for possible case
>purchase.

Dan:
	The Pioneer Valley Brewpub is located in Springfield.  I've never eaten
there, but I stopped in to try the beer once, and it was satisfactory
(nothing exceptional).  
	Further north from Springfield (Holyoke) is the Paper City Brewey - not a
brew pub, but good local beer to look for.  
	Further north again is the Northampton Brewery, which generally has good
beer and sometimes exceptional beer.  Some of the Northampton Brewery's
beers are available for purchase in 'growler' jugs (1/2 gal.) 
	Further north yet again (South Deerfield) is Berkshire Brewing company -
again, not a brewpub, but (some) good local beer (I think their pale ales
and IPAs tend to be weak, but the stouts aren't bad if you can find them).
	Further north yet once again (Greenfield) is The People's Pint.  Though
some of the beers are (to my taste) over-hopped, there are some real gems
available.
	Wow - I never realized there was so much good beer in my backyard!  Good
luck on your beerquest!

						-Mark-

- --------------------------------------------
Sent from Northfield Mount Hermon School via
     the School Wide Information System



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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:48:11 -0500
From: "Russell, D. A. (David)" <drussel3 at ford.com>
Subject: Fruit Fly elimination

Not to continue to belabor this fruit fly post, but I have some
questions.  The last two batches i have made, I have experienced an
extra ordinary amount of fruit fly (or shall I propose Wort Fly) in the
house.  The first batch, we had salad with homemade wine vinegar, in the
fall.  Later that night during the brew session, I was doing what I
could to eliminate them.  The next brew session, I experienced them
hanging around my yeast starter.

Any wonderful suggestions on eliminating those pesky Wort Flies, any
nifty traps?  They do make brewing bothersome.


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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:27:07 -0800
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: Plastic Fermentors from St. Pats.


Hiya, after the recent flap over Saint Pats treatment of  a customer, I
decided to check out these blue barrels i heard mentioned in passing as the
item in contention.  (what do you wanna bet that St. Pats gets an INcrease
in business after all this :)...  I checked out http://www.stpats.com and
found the fermentor listed for $3...

My questions (don't i always have them?)

What are the best way to clean these things, and keep them clean?  They seem
a bit hard to get into...

Since plastic fermentors always get warnings about scratches hiding
infections, etc.  How can i make sure its not infected before dumping my 12
gallons of precious homebrew into it?  How can i prevent this from
happening?

Any one got some horror stories or Success stories they will share regarding
these fementors?

badger

*********************************************
Brander Roullett aka Badger (Seattle, WA)
Brewing Page: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html
Badgers Brewing Bookstore: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/brewbook.html




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Date: 11 Jan 1999 11:21:25 -0500
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Morgans Crystal Syrup


HBD'rs-

There has been some discussion of  caramel syrup:
"
One thing I didn't mention in my suggestions for cloning Prior DD and
Yuengling is that many dark American beers were (are?) colored with caramel
syrup such as Porterine (tm).
"
A buddy who just got into brewing "mistakenly" bought some Morgans Crystal
Malt in a can instead of crystal malt (grains).
I'm somewhat familiar with the Morgans line of extracts and accompanying
recipe book for using their wheat malt, rice malt and crystal syrups, although
 I've never used any of them.
I tried to coach him into using about 1/2# of the stuff to approximate a pound
of crystal malt.  It seems to be thicker than malt extract.  Does anybody know
what the deal is with this stuff?  How many p/p/g does it contribute?

Thanks

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood, MI


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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:10:45 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Beer as a sport drink (it never did die)


Just one more comment on beer as a sport drink : it always has been one
in Germany.  "Lite Beer" (lower calorie) are often marketed with slogans
such as "Nimm's Sportlich" (take it sportly).

Yet another reason for me to move back there ;-)

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay                                     Nortel Networks
Norstar WinNT Kernel Prime           613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
amckay at nortelnetworks.com



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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:15:57 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: pictures of brewers


As for putting up pictures of everyone, there is already a similar project
going
on for patrons of the rec.crafts.brewing newsgroup.  Unfortunately I have
the
link to the page at home, so I can't look it up right now.  Andrew Avis is
running it.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay                                     Nortel Networks
Norstar WinNT Kernel Prime           613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
amckay at nortelnetworks.com



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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:18:34 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Oakland, CA

I will be in Oakland for a meeting Jan 18-20.  I'm interested in
getting together with other HBDers, visiting local brewpubs, and/or
sampling homebrew.  I arrive fairly late (8:30 plane) on the 18th,
probably am not available on the 19th, and depart on a 9PM flight on
the 20th, but should have much of the afternoon of the 20th free.
I will probably not have my own transportation.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)



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---