---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: CAP question (Jeff Renner)
  bottle sanitation (VQuante)
  RE : Kegging w/o CO2 (Alan McKay)
  RE : Plastic bucket for boil vessel (Alan McKay)
  Re: SS Screen (Shawn Dodds)
  Mashing Corn Meal Before Boiling (Alan McKay)
  update: blue corn meal (Markus Berndt)
  Re: Stainless steel screens (Doug Moyer)
  large yeast storage experiment, 8 week data ("Dave Whitman")
  Coffee Stout, beer stones (PAUL W HAAF JR)
  Use of Grain in Vegetarian Dishes (Thomas S Barnett)
  specialty grains (PVanslyke)
  Re: Sanitizing and Aluminum foil ("Stanley E. Prevost")
  re: Plastic boilers and Stainless steel screen ("C.D. Pritchard")
  kegging without CO2 (Guy Burgess)
  Scottish Ale Yeast for high gravity / coffee stouts (AKGOURMET)
  Coffee Stout ("John Griswold")
  RE: Posting Questionable Data (ThomasM923)
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  6th Annual Peach State Brew-Off Results (wakarimasen)
  RE: Posting Questionable, and unsupported Data (Rod Prather)
  Why mash cereal adjuncts before cooking? ("George De Piro")
  Re; Sanitizing Bottles (Jim Bentson)
  re: old-style keg conversion (PVanslyke)
  Thermocouples and Panel Meters. HELP! (Rod Prather)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

Enter The Mazer Cup! _THE_ mead competition.
Details available at http://hbd.org/mazercup
Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. 
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
  the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!

Contact brewery at hbd.org for information regarding the "Cat's Meow"

Back issues are available via:

  HTML from...
        http://hbd.org
  Anonymous ftp from...
	ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests
	ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer
  AFS users can find it under...
        /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

COPYRIGHT for the Digest as a collection is currently held by hbd.org 
  (Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen). Digests in their entirity CANNOT be 
  reprinted/reproduced without this entire header section unless 
  EXPRESS written permission has been obtained from hbd.org. Digests
  CANNOT be reprinted or reproduced in any format for redistribution
  unless said redistribution is at absolutely NO COST to the consumer.
COPYRIGHT for individual posts within each Digest is held by the
  author. Articles cannot be extracted from the Digest and
  reprinted/reproduced without the EXPRESS written permission of the 
  author. The author and HBD must be attributed as author and source in
  any such reprint/reproduction. (Note: QUOTING of items originally
  appearing in the Digest in a subsequent Digest is exempt from the
  above. Home brew clubs NOT associated with organizations having a
  commercial interest in beer or brewing may republish articles in their
  newsletters and/or websites provided that the author and HBD are
  attributed. ASKING first is still a great courtesy...)

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 15:52:56 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: CAP question

"Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com> wrote:
>Jeff Renner writes:
>>Be
>>sure to mash any cornmeal with 30% malt for ~20 min. before boiling it and
>>adding it back to the main mash.
>
>Why?
>I forget exactly what gelatinization is, but why mash the cornmeal first,
>then boil, then mash again?

Several reasons.  First, it's the traditional way that American brewers
(largely German born and/or trained) devised to adapt their continental
malt recipes to the different American malt.  They figured out that it
needed to be done that way, and since I want to recreate an historic style,
that's a good reason for starters.

But, why did they use this extra step and not just boil the corn or rice
alone?  Or just put it in the mash raw as can be done with wheat?  Because
boiled corn grits or rice sets up and is difficult to handle and
incorporate into the main mash, even with extra water.  When you do a
cereal mash, the porridge-like mash starts out stiff and then liquifies to
a remarkable extent, and this continues during the cooking.  This makes
incorporating to the main mash much easier, and in big production, makes
pumping the cereal mash easier or even possible.

Gelatinization is the rupturing of starch granules and the hydration and
liquification of starch (this from memory, I am open to better explanations
from those who know this better than I do).  Corn and rice do not
gelatinize at mash temperatures the way wheat does.  Most of the starch in
corn or rice is bound up in the starch granules, but some of these granules
are damaged by the milling, and the starch released can then be gelatinized
and converted.

Then in the boil, most of the rest of the starch is released to be
converted in the main mash.  What's more, melanoidin-producing reactions
take place in the boil which produce desireable malty and other flavors,
although perhaps not to the same extent as in Continental decoctions.

For further historic discussion, see Spencer's site for the 1902 edition of
The American Handy Book of Brewing by Wahl and Henius at
http://hubris.engin.umich.edu:8080/Wahl/ .  Malting and Brewing Science and
other modern texts will shed more light on this from a modern point of view.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 04:46:36 EST
From: VQuante at aol.com
Subject: bottle sanitation

In hbd #2934 "Colin K." <colink at wenet.net> wrote:

> I rinse my clean bottles making sure to leave about
> 1/2 oz or so of water in them. I then stack them on their sides in my
> oven and heat them to 170 deg for 20 min. According to her: wet heat
> kills, but some spores can survive dry heat. I then shut off the oven.

Right you are, Colin! I think, it's a very safe way of sanitizing, at 
least up
to now I never had an infection.

You may minimize the risk of bottle cracking, if you put the bottles in 
the
oven standing, without contacting each other. Otherwise, it may happen,
that if one bottle cracks, the impulse on the other bottles causes a chain
reaction.

You can keep the temperature of about 150 Celsius (don't know in 
Fahrenheit
, sorry) for about 20 minutes - usually all the water in the bottles 
should
evaporate in that time, so you don't have to pour out any rest.

Volker

Volker R. Quante
Brunnenbraeu Homebrewery

Brewing and working in Warsaw / Poland, but definitely a German Homebrewer



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 09:32:39 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at mail.magma.ca>
Subject: RE : Kegging w/o CO2

tbevans writes :

> Does anyone have experience with kegging beer and then 
> dispensing it with a hand pump (like they do in certain 
> English pubs), as opposed to using CO2 to dispense.   I 
> have not even progressing to kegging my beer yet but would 
> like any information available about this process and whether 
> it is feasible for us homebrewers.  

This is called a "Real Ale", and I've seen discussions on how to
do it at home.  Keep in mind, though, that you have to turn your
beers over reasonably quickly, because that hand pump is putting
regular ol' air into your keg, so it has the potential to go
bad an awful lot more quickly.

Personally, I wouldn't do it.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
   "Brewers make wort, yeast makes beer"
    - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 09:36:00 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at mail.magma.ca>
Subject: RE : Plastic bucket for boil vessel

That's Kenny-Eddy, aka Ken Schwartz.  Conveniently enough, he also
posted a message in this version of the HBD, so I didn't even have
to go fumbling around looking for his URL.

http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/plasticbrew/electric.html

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
   "Brewers make wort, yeast makes beer"
    - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 09:31:56 -0500
From: Shawn Dodds <shawn at dodds1.com>
Subject: Re: SS Screen

Greetings,

You MAY be able to use the SS braided sheath from a length of reinforced
water line, as was mentioned in another post.  However, this may not
support the weight of the mash, and the 'hole' size will vary as you
stretch or compress it.  I do however use a length of this as a strainer
when transferring wort from the boilpot to the primary. I got a piece at
Sears Hardware.  YMMV.

Another choice may be the 'SureScreen'.  You can see it at
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/surescreen.html

Had I not already bought the JS product, I would have gone this route.

Happy Brewing,
Shawn

- -------Land------------------------Wire---------------
Shawn Dodds                 978-454-8684
709 Chelmsford St.          shawn at dodds1.com
Lowell, MA  01851           http://www.dodds1.com
- ------------------------------------------------------


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 09:56:24 -0500
From: Alan McKay <amckay at mail.magma.ca>
Subject: Mashing Corn Meal Before Boiling

Jeff Renner says :

>This has been reported to me as being used successfully (I happily seem to
>be a clearing house for CAP).  It is pricier than ordinary corn meal.  Be
>sure to mash any cornmeal with 30% malt for ~20 min. before boiling it and
>adding it back to the main mash.

Then Bryan Gros asks :

> Why? I forget exactly what gelatinization is, but why mash the 
> cornmeal first, then boil, then mash again?

This is a very good example of one of those things that big brewers do,
that some homebrewer reads about, and naturally (but falsely) assumes 
that we should be doing it, too.  Several months ago there was an article 
in Brewing Techniques about mashing adjuncts, and in it Delano Dugarm 
(sp?) said that you "have" to do this, too.

Well, that got my fingers flying, and I started writing letters to all
sorts of people, including the brewmaster at Molson's here in Canada to
ask why they do this.

As it turns out, the only reason the big brewers do this is to prevent
"retrogradation" (or was that "retrodegratation" -- don't recall just now).
What's that mean?  It means that in some cases if you don't do the little
mash first, then your adjunct will semi-solidify in place.  For the homebrewer,
that poses zero problem because you are only dealing with a pound or two
of "gunk" at a time, and even if it does gum-up, you can still very easily
scrape it out of the pot and mix it into the mash, where it will convert
as though nothing had every happened.  But as the brewmaster at Molson's 
told me, when you are working with several hundred to several
thousand pounds of adjunct at a time, the last thing you want is for
this "retro-whatever" to occur.  The poor fellow told me about one time
when he did actually have it happen, and he had to get up into the pot
with a shovel to start scooping it out.

There are also reports that this technique "reduces scorching".  Well,
I and everyone I know just boil the adjuncts, and none of us have ever
had a problem with scorching.

When presented with this information, even George Fix - who normally 
recommends this technique - admitted that he could see no real reason
why it is required.

In a BT about 3 to 5 issues ago you can see this discussed near the
front of the magazine in "Readers Tech Notes" section.  It has all of
the details.  I think it was 2 issues after the issue about mashing 
adjuncts.  I can't seem to dig up the electronic version at the moment, 
otherwise I'd post it here.

I know that some folks are still going to adhere to these old wives
tales, but at least I hope that for others this will dispell the myth
once and for all.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
   "Brewers make wort, yeast makes beer"
    - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 08:45:36 -0700 (MST)
From: Markus Berndt <Markus.Berndt at Colorado.EDU>
Subject: update: blue corn meal


Hi all,
  I should have searched the HBD archive before brewing. There were
lautering problems reported before with a mash that contained blue corn
meal, and that's exactly what happened. 
  I followed the procedure described for mashing with corn meal in
Wahl/Henius. All went well, until I tried to recirculate the Vorlauf. I
was able to run off about 1 pint of wort and then the mash was stuck. I
have a 5 gallon Gott cooler lauter tun with a home-made copper manifold.
This has never before given me any problems in the lauter process (not
even with wheat beers).
  I guess the blue corn meal is sufficiently different from regular corn
meal to make it unsuitable for brewing. I strongly advise against using
it. The color of the first mash (corn meal and some malt) that is to be
boiled for 45 minutes, was a deep purple. After adding this to the main
mash the color of the entire mash was light purple. I would describe the
color as not desirable for beer. If you want to try to use blue corn meal
and succeed, let me know. I won't try it again! 
  Dr. Fix writes in 'Analysis of Brewing Techniques' (p. 11) that a too
low pH in a mash with gelatinized corn meal may result in a too high
viscosity. This may subsequently cause lauter problems. This is the only
other explanation that I could find. I don't know, however, why the pH
should be too low, since it usually is in the normal range for my mashes.
This time, of course, I did not take a measurment.
  I'll go to the homebrew supply store and buy some more 6-row malt. Then
I will brew a CAP with polenta.

Gut Sud (well, didn't happen this time)

 - Markus



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 12:29:03 -0500
From: Doug Moyer <moyerde at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: Re: Stainless steel screens

Brewers,
    I got so many great responses to my question about sources of
stainless steel screen for an EasyMasher-type device. Thanks to everyone
that replied. Here is a summary. (I will ignore netiquette and quote
some of the respondents without their permission. I hope they will
forgive me. Since I don't have their permission, I am not including
their email addresses.)

(1) Al K. sells a welded roll of screen called Surescreen for $9,
including US shipping. Check it out at:
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/surescreen.html

(2) McMaster-Carr has a variety of mesh sizes of stainless steel screen.
For example, an 8x8 mesh (per inch) with 0.028 diameter wire (open area
= 60.2%) sells for $7.46 (+ s/h) for a 12" x 12" sheet. Other mesh and
wire sizes can be significantly more costly. Check it out at:
http://www.mcmaster.com (search for stainless screen)

(3) Our loving janitor, Pat Babcock, runs the HomeBrew Flea Market.
Along with many other items, there is an ad for 6 1/2" width screen
selling for $1 per foot (you supply SASE). Check it out at:
http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/4sale.html

(4) Several people have suggested cutting the screen out of the kitchen
splatter screens. These are flat, circular, about 12" in diameter, and
were around $3 at my local Wal-Mart.

(5) Several people suggested the wire mesh around reinforced washing
machine hose. Jeff McNally sez, "Any plumbing/hardware store sells this
stuff for hooking up dishwashers and such.  They come with threaded ends
crimped onto the hose.  Simply chop the ends off of the hose with a
hammer and chisel and the SS mesh/screen will slid right off of the
rubber hose." Shawn Dodds warns, "However, this may not support the
weight of the mash, and the 'hole' size will vary as you stretch or
compress it."

(6) There were also suggestions to contact local glass suppliers, or
look up "metal" in the Yellow Pages. The glass supplier had brass
screen, which some repliers recommended because it is softer and easier
to work with. (Of course, remember to delead the brass before using.)

(7) Other than a few recommendations concerning false bottoms, one of
the more interesting responses was from Chris Cooper who writes, "I
recently purchased a 4" X 8" sheet of perforated brass sheet at my local
Hobby R/C Model shop.  The holes are
on a very tightly spaced grid and about .080" in diameter.  It cost
$6.00. I also purchased some brass "C" channel and plan to cut two 4x4
squares, and make a sort of biscuit using a compression fitting to hold
the two squares apart in the center and silver soldering the 'C' channel
to the for edges to seal."

(8) The last (and coolest) alternative was from a very nice gentleman
who offered to mail his leftovers to me, gratis. Of course, I will go
with this option. (Although I will keep in mind the rest when I get
ready to further convert my keg brew pot, or help other members from my
brew club.)

Finally, several people recommended using larger diameter connectors and
tubing. The EM uses an 1/8" aircock, and many recommend using 1/2" ID
fittings. Also, I might add, use a "full-port" ball valve instead of a
"standard-port" if you plan on adding a pump. The pump should be
throttled downstream of the pump, and accordingly, you want to eliminate
restrictions upstream of the pump.

The people on this list are truly wonderful folks. Thanks again!

Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 13:07:01 -0500
From: "Dave Whitman" <dwhitman at fast.net>
Subject: large yeast storage experiment, 8 week data

Viability data for yeast samples stored under various media for 8 weeks:

yeast   DI water     2% KHP       2% NaCl
ale     65 +/- 15    56 +/- 13    54 +/- 13
lager    6 +/- 4      8 +/-  1     4 +/-  3

No statistically significant differences for storing the ale yeast under the
different conditions.
The lager yeast is significantly worse under NaCl than DI water, but the
lager yeast just isn't holding up well in general.

The ale yeast had been maintained under sterile water with periodic
reculture for 4 years prior to this experiment, which may have allowed
selection for cells which stand up well to this storage method.  I harvested
some lager yeast colonies from the latest set of plates and stored them
under fresh sterile water to see if after one round of selection the yeast
holds up better.

Full details are posted at the web site:

http://www.users.fast.net/~dwhitman/yeast/index.htm

Yeast ranching hardware:
I found a good, cheap source of covered dishes for giant yeast colony
analysis.

Betty Crocker FoodSavers dishes, model #4325 made by Eagle Corporation are
220x30 mm with a tight fitting lid.  Both the top and bottom seem to be 100%
polypropylene and they autoclave nicely.  I looked at a lot of microwavable
leftover containers at the local discount store, and while many have polypro
bottoms, most have (non-autoclavable) LDPE tops.

This dish has an internal divider which can be cut out with a knife; it's
easier to do if you soften the plastic with boiling water first (nuke some
water in the dish until it boils).

- --
Dave Whitman
dwhitman at fast.net



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 14:02:11 -0500
From: PAUL W HAAF JR <haafbrau1 at juno.com>
Subject: Coffee Stout, beer stones

  I tried the stones in my kettle trick on Thursday night.  Viva la
Difference!  I used four paving or driveway stones, boiled them first,
then tossed in the wort kettle.  The difference was amazing.  My only
question is, should you wash the rocks afterward, or allow the wort to
dry on them for flavor character? 
  As far as coffee stout goes, what I did the one time I made it, was to
put the ground coffee in a hop bag, and steep the grounds in the wort
immediately after turning off the stove.  As this brew was made over two
years ago, I forget how the head retention was.  Might I suggest another
method?  Brew the coffee and the wort separately and combine in the
fermenter.  This should help eliminate the oil problem.  Before I
actually brewed a coffee stout, I used to add a shot of coffee liquor to
my poured beer.  Not a bad way to get the flavor, and you don't risk a
whole batch, although you can always  blend a beer if the flavor is too
strong.

The opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of anybody else,
anywhere. 
Paul Haaf 
I'm running up all my credit cards the week before Y2K.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 13:41:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Thomas S Barnett <barnets at mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: Use of Grain in Vegetarian Dishes

Hello All, 
	My girlfriend is a vegetarian and i've noticed that many of the
dishes she prepares call for the addition of Bulgar Wheat and/or Barley.
I was wondering if anyone has used malted wheat or malted barley for such
dishes.  If so, how does one go about preparing them for use as a meal?
Is the preparation of wheat and barley for the food industry much
different than that for the brewing industry?  If so, how? My assumption
is that the malting process is very specific to the brewing industry, but
i don't see why it can't also be consumed as an ingredient in food. Thanks.
Tom Barnett.



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:25:17 EST
From: PVanslyke at aol.com
Subject: specialty grains

Good morning,
	In the past I have tied my specialty grains in a cheesecloth bag and either
simmered (at 155F to 160F - depending on the veracity of the thermometer) in 1
gal or in the full 5 gal water intended for an extract batch. In this process
I found the actual temp in the heart of the bag/grain mass was slow to come up
to temperature. 	In my last batch (extract - I'm still waiting for delivery of
a grain mill) I utilized a 2 gallon pot with 1.5 gal water and the specialty
grains dumped in loose. At the end of the allotted time, I strained off the
liquid. This batch is still in secondary, so I don't know if the results will
be better. 
	 The couple times I have done an all grain method, I have included the
specialty grains along with the pale malt instead of dealing with them
separately.
	I seem to remember some discussion of this a couple years ago. I was
wondering what the consensus of method is and whether one method may be better
than the other.
	
Paul VanSlyke >> brewin' and relaxin' in Deposit, NY


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:54:58 -0600
From: "Stanley E. Prevost" <sprevost at ro.com>
Subject: Re: Sanitizing and Aluminum foil

I'm a little late in contributing my $0.02 on the issue of sanitizing
bottles and storing them until use.  I like Alan McKay's solution of storing
them upside down in a case, as long as the bottom of the case is lined with
something clean and new each time.  I have stored them upside down in
6-packs, but that's a little awkward.  I have also used aluminum foil, but
like Alan I got tired of fooling with all those little squares of foil.  I
don't have any good bottle cases handy, so now I am fooling with another
method, which is stuffing a cotton ball in the mouth of the bottle and
storing them upright.  This method of closing a bottle is used by
microbiolists a lot and apparently is pretty good at keeping out nasty
little critters while still allowing some gas exchange.  No need for
expensive sterile cotton balls, just ordinary cotton balls that come 300-400
in a bag in discount stores.  Easy, pretty cheap (two or three balls for a
US penny I think).

But when my kegs come in......

Stan




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 18:16:38
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: Plastic boilers and Stainless steel screen

steve at globaldialog.com posted: 
>I recall seeing a page on the net in the past describing someones system they
>made using a 220volt heating element installed in a plastic bucket for
>mashing and boiling.  

The best info on electric boilers is Ken Schwartz's page at:
  home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/plasticbrew/electric.html

I'm very happy with my plastic boiler which is a knock-off of Ken's (THANKS
Ken!). It has two 1500W at120VAC elements.  Details are at:
hbd.org/cdp/boiler.htm

With a single element operated at 240VAC, I'd sure follow the advice Ken
has on his page to prevent wort scorching. 

Re: an element simply stuck in the mash tun, I'm doubious.  Convective heat
transfer through the mash is going to be less effective than through wort
in a boiler which would lead to overheating at the element.  I'd plan on
having to stir the mash when ever the heater is on to prevent scorching.  

  -------
Doug Moyer <shyzaboy at geocities.com> asked:

>Does anyone know of a good source of stainless steel screen?...
>What have the rest of you DIYers done?

I got the idea via this great Digest (my THANKS to whoever posted it!): Go
to a home supply store and buy a SS reinforced connectors that's intended
for connecting up plumbing fixtures.  A 60" connector is $10-11.  What you
want is the SS woven mesh on the exterior fof the thing.  Liberate it by
whacking off the end fittings (a chisel works best) and pulling out the
plastic tubing inside that's the mesh.  The stuff looks like it won't flow
diddly, but, if you hold it up to the light and look through it, you'll see
thousands of small openings.  I use the stuff as manifolds in my RIMS and
boiler and have been real happy with it.  Details on how to fit it to end
fittings are at:  hbd.org/cdp/boiler.htm 
about 3/4 the way down the page.


c.d. pritchard cdp at chattanooga.net 
web site:      http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/  



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:46:57 -0500
From: Guy Burgess <orientalwok at fuse.com>
Subject: kegging without CO2

Tim Evans asks if anyone has experience dispensing real ale at home.

English pubs, and some here, use beer engines which essentially create a
vacuum to pull the beer through the faucet. And yes, if you have a spare
$300-450 you too can dispense this way. Beer engines are not cheap, and
gravity can be used with success.
Support the keg on a 35 deg angle, topside down such that the *in*
connector is facing the floor. Connect a short length of hose with a
picnic faucet to the *in* side. Place a connector covered only with a
little sterile cotton on the *out* side. The empty connector vents the
keg through the dip tube as gravity dispenses the beer through the
faucet.
The drawbacks: Air is necessarily introduced as the beer is dispensed
(infection), CO2 level will steadily diminish, and you can't use a
sparkler for those nice tight heads.
My response: I enjoy beer served this way,  it's always easy to find
people help you quickly consume it, and I prefer *not* to have my beer
run run through a sparkler. It works for me.

Another way is simply to push the beer out of the keg, normal fashion,
with just enough gas to get it through the faucet. Easier and more
sanitary. Purists might argue, but this method works pretty well.

Good luck
Guy Burgess





Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:05:51 EST
From: AKGOURMET at aol.com
Subject: Scottish Ale Yeast for high gravity / coffee stouts

>>Suitability of Wyeast 1728 "Scottish Ale" for high gravity worts

Just a data point here.  I used Wyeast 1728 for my Big Brew '98 last year.
Original gravity was 1.112 and FG was 1.034 for an apparent attenuation of 70%
and 10% alcohol.  I was going for a Bigfoot kind of flavor, but it ended up
being more like a traditional barley wine.  It did clear nicely and never had
any alcohol "bite", just a nice warming effect.  I used a one gallon starter
and fermented around 65 F.   I wish I had one to taste right now so I could
describe it better, but I'm at work.  

In the same digest, another coffee-press-using poster wrote:
>>Based on this, for a coffee stout I'd try steeping the coffee grounds for
>>about 4 or 5 minutes shortly *before* the wort boils.  (emphasis added)

I think you want to add the coffee AFTER the boil, not before.  Boiled coffee
doesn't taste very good.  When Redhook came out with their Double Black coffee
stout it was one of my favorite beers.  I've brewed a couple of coffee stouts
since then.  Both times I steeped ground coffee in the wort for about 5
minutes after the boil and before chilling with an immersion chiller. I just
threw the coffee in -- no bag.  The first time I used 1/2 pound of drip-ground
coffee and it was a little too strong on the coffee flavor.  The second time,
I used 1/4 pound of coarse ground and it was just right.  Both beers had good
head, too.  

Bill "can't wait to brew tomorrow" Wright
Juneau, AK



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:09:54 -0500
From: "John Griswold" <griswold at ma.ultranet.com>
Subject: Coffee Stout

I've not done this - just theorizing, and it's probably been done before -

Wouldn't boiling the coffee extract, however dilute, create those horrible
old-coffee flavors?  (I was a sailor - I _know_ what old coffee tastes like
;)  If you are going for fresh-coffee flavor, you might consider adding the
coffee right before, or at break-out, sort of like late aroma hopping.  The
coffee flavor would be imparted, and I think the grounds, if coarsely ground
as Brendan suggests, will filter out with the hops.



Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:07:33 -0800
From: Brendan Persinger <kapital at exo.com>
Subject: Re: Coffee Stout
<snip>
Based on this, for a coffee stout I'd try steeping the coffee grounds for
about 4 or 5 minutes shortly before the wort boils.
<snip>



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:47:21 EST
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: RE: Posting Questionable Data

>However, one thing really gets under my skin, which is posting conjecture.
Posts >that contain the phrase, "I don't have the resource to hand, but...."
or "I can't recall >exactly how process xxxx works, but here's what I
remember...." or "I remember >from Organic Chemistry fifteen years ago
that..." really make for a great number of >worthless posts.

Sometimes this kind of "worthless post" can prompt someone who is more
knowledgeable to reply with all the pertinent facts. I don't think anyone
should be discouraged from offering some incomplete facts or advice as long as
it is stated as such. It can lead to some interesting threads and the further
education of all who are interested.

Thomas Murray
Maplewood, NJ


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:16:01 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

			The Jethro Gump Report
>From: "Dave Humes" <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>
>I wondered about the suitability of a highly
>flocculent yeast like 1728 for a high gravity beer.

	While I have no comments on 1728, I will speak to what I guess will provoke
a wee bit of discussion...
	Firstly, the Nottingham I used in my Strong Ales and Barleywines is a grand
flocc'er....and without any other additions, papered out  at  10.25 % ABV....
Analysis by Siebel verified that, within a few data points....
	But the published details in a paper by Casey, Magnus, Ingledew, Applied
Environmental Microbiology, Sept 1984, pg 639-646, speaks on "High Gravity
Brewing: Effects of Nutrition on Yeast Composition, Fermentative Ability,
and Alcohol Production."
	The Authors state that "the concentration of the nutrients most likely to
limit growth, (eg, oxygen and assimilible nitrogen) must certainly be
increased in such worts." (( high gravity))
	The point that they make is "In sharp contrast to the long held belief in
brewing that the bulk of wort attenuation is done by non-growing cells, it
is now clear that the specific rate of sugar utilization by growing yeast
cells in fermentation is substantially higher than that of non-growing
cells.
	Thus, when the period of new cell mass production ceases during
fermentation, the rate of attenuation also slows dramatically, (by as much
as 33-fold)."

	So, feed your high gravity brews plenty of yeast nutrient, and use
oxygen........and FORCE those yeasties to grow and grow.....
	AND acquire this reference.....and read it......

>From: "Kelly" <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
>Subject: A newbie question please...
>Could someone tell me what Fusel alcohols are...why they are bad, what the
>taste is like (so I can know how to detect), and how to prevent them?

	Fusels are produced in every fermentation....but you don't notice them in
most beers, unless they are high gravity, where the effect of having more of
everything makes them stand out...
	Respiratory Deficient Mutant yeasts are fond of making them......don't
worry about them yet......I doubt that you need to....
	But, for what it is worth to me, don't worry about fusels unless you are
brewing  at  a high gravity.....and then remember that they will dissipate in
time....
	That is why a strong ale or barleywine worth it's mettle will taste 'sharp
and angular' until at least 6 months of conditioning has occurred. That
'sharp' taste is from fusels.......they go away with time......

>From: "Kelly" <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
>Subject: RE: Subject: yeast starters
<SNIP>You want your brewing yeasts to get as fast of a start on
>re-producing and fermenting as possible so as to prevent possible
>contaminating yeasts and bacteria from thriving.  Remember, in any medium
>where microbes can thrive, it is a competition between them....and if you
>give your yeast cells an advantage of numbers and they are particularly
>viable, then they will win the 'war' to grow and thrive in the wort.  They
>will beat out the 'nasties' and will therefore be the primary
>fermenters/flavorers of your beer.

	Good work, Kelly! You have clearly stated the bottom line principle of
brewing! "Brewing is the Creation of the Most Ideal Circumstances for
Yeast."
	And thanks for allowing me to introduce my next piece of changed
technique.....
	I have long been an advocate of Iodophor, using it in a 'no-rinse'
situation......and happily doing so.....
	No longer.....I firmly believe in rinsing all vessels with city water prior
to filling with wort, un-fermented or not.....
	I no longer believe in No-Rinse anything.....except for gaskets, and other
small fiddly bits.....
	This goes back some years, when using an Iodophor product from TEXO, which
would periodically precipitate out a brownish flocc that looked like
radiator water......When this is in a 7bbl ferm, waiting for a transfer from
the Heat Exchanger.....what else could you do but rinse, with city water?
	This has gone on to using a horizontal plate DE filter....why do a Clean in
Place with 80+Celsius PBW, then a rinse, then a Iodophor CIP and rinse, when
all but the most arduous of bugs is killed by the high temp CIP with PBW?
	Fact is, there are bugs in city water........fact is, they aren't 'wort
spoilage' organisms ........

	But, you have hit the nail squarely on the head......the whole point of
brewing being the preparation of wort for the utilization by yeast.....AND
by the provision of yeast high in number, relatively, to any possible
bacteria....will result in a successful fermentation.....
	Once fermentation is done....a low pH, high ETOH, and hop presence all
serve as wort spoilage prevention agents...and the worry factor
decreases.....

>From: Joe Rolfe <rolfe at sky.sky.com>
>Subject: Questionable posts, Dry Yeast, Boilovers
>Dry Yeasts - there are places here and in Europe that provide
>excellent quality dry yeast to commercial brewers and if a
>homebrewer want to fork over $200 to $400 for it.
>(questionable data alert - i dont have the address here
>of the one I am thinking about in Denmark - but if anyone is
>interested I can get the address and the person I was in contact
>for you)...>
>You pay for one vial and it should last a life time. It comes
>with a purity certificate. So this Lallemand set up should be
>interesting.

	As a commercial brewer that has used the Lallemand product for many years,
in two successful brewpubs, I will refute the 200-400 $ tag....
	Commercial brewers in the US currently pay much less than that for their
dry yeast...........

>For those that want early access - talk to your local commercial
>brewer and see if they can purchase it for you if they dont
>become readily available to homebrew shops.

	Good advice....and precisely what I would advise..........get it from those
micro's and BP's that use it, when available....and your results will push
the powers that be to release it to the HB world........

"Text's Indicate Jesus Made Beer, Not Wine....."
	"A Study of the oldest bible texts, written in Aramaic, suggest that Jesus
turned water into beer, not wine, during the wedding feast in Canaan, the
Global Beer Network newsletter has reported.
	The old text's talk about "strong drink" and "lines of ale vat's." GBN
points out that the area was a brewing stronghold during the period, with
Egypt and the Nile Delta major grain exporters.. The oldest texts discussing
beer brewing have also been found in the Middle East.
	"In later translations of the Bible, centuries after the fact, beer was
replaced by wine," GBN observes. "Wine was considered a drink for the happy
few that could afford it...(even then) wine marketers were already
succeeding in giving wine a more upscale image."
	According to GBN, noted beer author Michael Jackson also subscribes to the
theory.
	"Jesus was a hero of the common people," the GBN newsletter notes,
"fighting the establishment. Why wouldn't he drink what everyone else was
drinking, which was beer? When you think about it, it is very possible that
the drink at the Last Supper was also Beer."
	MODERN BREWERY AGE....1.18.99 (reprinted without permission....)Go to
www.breweryage.com  for subscription info.......
Cheers!
Jethro Gump

Rob Moline
brewer at isunet.net

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 01:42:54 -0500
From: wakarimasen at mindspring.com
Subject: 6th Annual Peach State Brew-Off Results

The Peach State Brew-Off was run on January 23rd, at Max Lager's American
Grill and Brewery, with early judging flights on the Thursday/Friday prior.

The competition results can be found at:

http://wakarimasen.home.mindspring.com

My thanks to the judges and stewards who helped make the competition run
well.

Dennis Waltman  (Organizer)



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:30:02 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: RE: Posting Questionable, and unsupported Data

Alan McKay Said:

This is just being utterly ridiculous.  Citations and so on, while they
would be useful in some circumstances, is just being too anal IMO.  This
isn't a scientific journal

I agree with you in one respect, Alan.   HBD should be fun, interresting
and easy going.    After all, this is a hobby for MOST of us and brewing is
an art AIDED by science. Ok, so maybe it's science aided by art!!  Having 
been one to make more than my share of stupid posts when starting in with 
HBD, I know there is a bit of credibility to Jeffrey Kentons observations.
I believe that most of the posts that he is referencing are from newbies
who are a bit too anxious to post to the HBD.  I suggest  that the Janitors 
insert a little blurb in the welcome letter explaining the level of 
expertise in the group and the fact that the letter is archived.  
Something to the respect that all questions are welcome but that 
one should lurk for a while before offering advice on the HBD to 
get a feeling for the mood of the group. There is currently no 
advice like this in the welcome letter. 
- -------References?: Gut Instinct and Personal Experience.


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 24 Jan 99 06:10:49 PST
From: "George De Piro" <gdepiro at fcc.net>
Subject: Why mash cereal adjuncts before cooking?

Hi all,

A couple of people ask why cereal adjuncts should be mashed
with a little malt prior to cooking.  It seems like a pointless
procedure because the starch in some adjuncts won't gelatinize
at enzyme-friendly mash temperatures.

Gelatinization is not a simple "on-off" switch; it is a process
that occurs over a range of temperatures and is also time
dependent.  This means that you could still recover much the of
the potential extract of a starchy adjunct by mashing it below
its gelatinization temperature if you wait long enough.

All brewers have other things to do in life rather than wait forever
for their starchy adjuncts to convert.  With this in mind, the starchy
adjuncts are put in a cereal cooker with a small amount of diastatic
malt, rested at an amylase-friendly temperature, then boiled.

Resting in the saccharification range allows some enzymatic
degradation of starch to occur.  This helps reduce the viscocity
of the resulting cereal mash so that it is easier to work with later
in the process.  At home it is no bother to simply dump a pot
of boiled corn into your mash and scrape the goo out.  Imagine
how you would do that with 10 bbl of goo, or 200 bbl.  It is best
to keep the formation of goo to a minimum.

If you ever try this at home you will see a dramatic difference
between the consistency of corn meal that has been simply boiled
and corn meal that has been mashed/boiled.  Try adding some
malt to your next bowl of oatmeal and cooking it as if it were a
cereal mash (not the tasteless instant oats, the real thing).

Just in case you're interested, here is a list of gelatinization
temperature ranges for common brewing ingredients.  This is
from _Malting and Brewing Science_, page 225:

Starch              Deg. F              Deg. C

corn                143.5-165             62-74

sorghum          156-167             69-75

rice                  142-172             61-78

wheat              125.5-147             52-64

barley               140-143.5            60-62

barley malt        147-152.5         64-67

potatoe             133-156            56-69

You will notice that some of the above starches do not require
cooking above nash temperature while others do.  You will
also notice that malted barley has a slightly higher gelatinization
temperature than raw barley.  That is not a typo.  It is presumed
that the kilning of the malt is the reason for this change (perhaps
starch retrogration or somesuch, I don't know.  Feel free to
enlighten the group if you have any knowledge).

Also be aware that while oats are conspicuously absent from this
list, it is stated on the same page in the text that they need to be
cooked prior to mashing (like corn and rice).

Have fun!

George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:30:24 -0500
From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at longisland.com>
Subject: Re; Sanitizing Bottles 

Tom Franklin started a recent thread about pre-sanitizing bottles and using
foil caps to store until bottling day. I have waited a few days and haven't
seen my method mentioned so I am throwing this into the idea hopper.

Charlie Papazian a long time ago recommended a procedure that I use in a
modified form. He suggested keep a 20 gal or larger garbage pail in your
basement or  garage filled with  water with bleach added at a rate of 1
ounce per 4gals of water.  Charlie suggested an overnight soak, then drain
( DON'T RINSE) and then seal top with aluminum foil. He then had you rinse
with hot water on brew day.

I brew on a 3 to 4 week interval. My modification to Charlie's procedure is
that I just store my  60 bottles in the a covered 20 gal garbage plastic
pail containing bleach water for 4 weeks rather than just overnight.On brew
day I just drain them and rinse with hot water using a jet bottle washer.
Never had a problem or off taste and have been doing it for years. It
actually takes less space than storing empties in cases.

I always thoroughly rinse my bottles with cool water after I pour the beer
so I just add my empties to the storage pail as I generate them. I have
found that I only need to replace the water about every 8 weeks. The only
caveat is that in very hot weather the chlorine could theoretically
dissipate before bottle usage, however the water is still covered so it
shouldn't be a problem. Although I don't brew during this time, I have
stored bottles for months this way and still been 
able to smell chlorine on my hand after dipping in the months old water.

Jim Bentson
Centerport NY



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:14:03 EST
From: PVanslyke at aol.com
Subject: re: old-style keg conversion

From: Jim Suggs <jvsuggs at clarityconnect.com>
Subject: old-style keg conversion


<< I finally visited my local junkyard looking
for scrap kegs.  They had a couple, but they were of an older (not Sankey)
style.  I brought one home.  It's got some kind of valve on top, and a
wood/cork bung in a hole in the side.  

I'm thinking of using it as a mash/lauter tun, with an easymasher(TM).
I've already got a nice big converted Sankey kettle.  My question is this -
is there an easy way to seal that hole, or better yet, use it for something
useful?  Or am I going to be stuck trying to get a plate welded there?

Thanks a lot,
suggs
>>

Jim, 
I started out with a keg of this nature converting it into a boiling kettle.
After removing a portion of the kettle to a point just above the Bung, a
friend TIG welded a scrap piece over the hole (from the inside). I still use
this kettle.
	This style keg is not old. Quite a few breweries use them for whatever
reason. Genesee Brewing comes to mind as well as many micro breweries such as
Cooperstown Brewing Company (mmm, good beer).
	If anyone has more info on this style keg as opposed to other styles, I would
be interested.

Paul VanSlyke >> brewin' and relaxin' in Deposit, NY


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:44:44 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Thermocouples and Panel Meters. HELP!

A month or two ago, someone posted the name of a link that carried an
extensive inventory  of process control merchandise.  Panel meters,
thermocouples, pumps, level switches, controllers and the like.  Looked like
a lot of inventory buyouts.  I looked at it, figured it was perfect and I
thought I bookmarked it  but now I can't find it.    Can anyone help......
please?  This is not movingbeers.com,  I've got that link.



Return to table of contents

---