---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Krausening the secondary (LESLIE MICHAEL PATRICK)
  Re:  Momily ("Kaczorowski, Scott")
  Spruce Beer (AKGOURMET)
  Pubs in London (Dan Listermann)
  Gibberellic acid (William Frazier)
  What went wrong? ("Bill Tobler")
  Re: Bottling bucket necessary? (James_E_Pearce)
  Oh, now I get it... (Ted McIrvine)
  Re: George De Piro's comments on "Kelly's stuck lager..." (Scott Murman)
  phenols ("Stephen Alexander")
  Dave's stuck ferment ("L & K Rossi")
  Oxidation at bottling ("Fred L. Johnson")
  Mash for Breakfast (Stephen Johnson)
  blue beer (Brad Trowbridge)
  Drilling Enamel Canning Pots ("Michael P. Beck")
  A pseudo widget question :-) ("William W. Macher")
  Sierra Nevada Changing...? (Christophe Frey)
  Re: fermenting under pressure (Jeff Renner)
  Bleach shouldn't be acidified ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Call for Mazer Cup Judges ("Ken Schramm")
  Oxygen in the beer at end of fermentation ("Peter J. Calinski")
  More on raw wheat mashing (Jim Layton)
  Re: beer bullets (ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO)
  Great Western Munich ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Copper in Brewing Equipment ("Timmons, Frank")
  Spruce ("Peter Zien")
  Re: Use of Copper in Brewing (John Palmer)
  beer bullets by volume (Rod Prather)
  Wanted Sam Adams Boston Lager clone recipe - all grain (Andrew McGowan)
  Spruce (David Johnson)
  Re:RE: GF whatever (The Holders)
  Bottling Live Beer ("Brook Raymond")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:46:51 -0800
From: LESLIE MICHAEL PATRICK <mleslie at ece.ubc.ca>
Subject: Krausening the secondary

I recently had a batch of Lager stick on me in the secondary.  I didn't
worry about it and left it for two weeks and measured its gravity
again.  The gravity had dropped from 1.030 to 1.025.  Something had to
be done.  I mixed up a starter culture of 1.5 qts. I racked the beer
back into a carboy ( it was in a corny) and pitched the yeast.  My
mistake was that when I poured the starter in, it splashed some.  My
question to all is whether this minute amount of oxygen will cause
staling flavours or will the krausen beer quickly absorb this oxygen?

Cheers
Michael Leslie


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Date: 2 Feb 1999 14:51:56 U
From: "Kaczorowski, Scott" <kaczorowski#m#_scott at apt.mdc.com>
Subject: Re:  Momily


js says, speaking of momilies:

> One of my favorites was.. "ice cubes freeze faster if you use warm
> water".

Actually, Jack, this is true.  You get a smaller amount of ice,
but quicker.  Visit:

http://www.urbanlegends.com/science/hot_water_freezes_faster.html

Are all of your charges of "Momily!" as well-researched?
Sometimes I think so...


Scott Kaczorowski
Long Beach, CA



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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:41:57 EST
From: AKGOURMET at aol.com
Subject: Spruce Beer

>>From: marli at bbs2.rmrc.net (Jon Macleod)
>>Subject: spruce?

>>Does anyone have a good all grain spruce beer recipe?  Any advice on
>>source/use of spruce?

I'll take a shot at this one.  Around here, spruce tip homebrews are quite
common.  In fact, the Skagway Brewing Company produces a commercial version
that is very popular.  For those who don't live in evergreen country, spruce
tips are the new growth that occurs on the end of the tree branch in the
Spring.  When they first come out, they kind of resemble a hop cone.  The best
time to pick them is when they're 1"-2" long and still compact (before they
start to open up).  They also freeze well in zip lock bags. 

I've had spruce tip beers in all styles -- light to dark -- and they're all
good.  The tips lend a spicy/citrusy flavor to the beer.  Not an evergreen
flavor as you would expect.  I have not tried the spruce extract which some
shops sell, but I've heard it lends more of an evergreen (gin) flavor. 

As for a recipe, just pick any good base recipe and add some tips to it.  I
like using about 2 quarts of tips in a 5 gallon batch of brown ale or porter.
If you make a lighter beer, I'd use half as much.  Darker, use more.  I just
throw them into the boil like hops for about 30 minutes.  


Bill Wright
Gourmet Alaska
Juneau, AK


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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:11:09 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Pubs in London

Jamie asks about good pubs in London.  He should not pass up the
opportunity to go to the Orange Brewery at the the corner of Pimlico and
St. Barnibus.  It is a brewpub within walking distance of Victoria 
Station.
 If you do go, have one for me.  My wife only alloted me enough time for 
a
porter because she just had to see where Princess Di lived.....

Dan Listermann           dan at listermann.com

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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 04:05:30 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Gibberellic acid

In HBD 2943 Cliff Moore asks about the non-water soluble form of gibberellic
acid and how to evenly apply it over his barley...
 
Quotes from the Merck Index, ninth edition;> 
 
"Slightly sol in water, ether.  Freely sol in methanol, ethanol, acetone.
Moderately sol in ethyl acetate.  Sol in aq solns of sodium bicarbonate and
sodium acetate"
 
Cliff...You say that you diluted in alcohol and still had a suspension
instead of a true solution.  Perhaps your alcohol contained too much water.
You might try grain alcohol or even some methanol or acetone from the
hardware store.
 
         Bill Frazier
         The Briarpatch Home Brewery
         Johnson County, Kansas
 



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Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:24:34 +0000
From: "Bill Tobler" <WCTobler at brazoria.net>
Subject: What went wrong?

This is not good. My very first batch, I sneaked an early brew tonight,
smells and tastes kinda like cider. Is this the fruity taste I here you guys
talk about? I sure could use some imput on what some of you think.  I tried
a Munton Pilsner Kit, 3.3# can of hopped malt extract, 3#s of extra-lite
DME.   
I sanatized EVERYTHING with B.E.S.T.  Here's the step by step:

1. I boiled 2 gal of water, removed from heat and added can of Malt extract
and DME
2.  Back on heat, brought back to boil, and kept at rolling boil for 30 min.
 (It tried to boilover, so I removed from heat for a second)
3.  I took pot from stove (16qt SS) and put in ice bath, and cooled down
quickly till warm to touch 
4.  I put 3 gal of cool water in 6.5 gal carboy Primary.  I used bottled
spring water.  
5.  I carefully poured wort into carboy.  I took a temp., and it was 80 deg.
F.  So far, so good.
6.  Here's my first mistake.  I pitched the yeast pack that came with the
kit dry.  I sanatized the package, opened it up and pitched.  (bad advice)
7.  I did not airate very well, as all I did was shake it up long enough to
mix in the yeast, about 1 minute.  Yet it took off in about 12 hours. 
Foaming and bubbling.  It looked good.  This went on for about 2 days.  
8.  On the third day, all was quiet, so I racked to a secondary.  (5 gal.
carboy)  and let it sit for a week.  
9.  On day 10, I bottled. I racked to a bottling bucket (5 gal plastic with
spikot).  (I added 3/4 cup of corn sugar disolved in boiled water first.)  
The beer had a head, carbonaited fairly well.  The beer was on the dark side
though, and I thought it should have been a little lighter.  

Let me stress, everything in every step was clean and sanatized.  I was
being extra carefull.  If there was any problem at all, I may have aireated
the wort a little at first when I racked from primary to secondary and to
the bottling bucket.  But as soon as there was a half inch of wort I made
sure that the transfer hose was under the liquid.  
                           Well, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it!! 
 Any advice would be welcome.  I've been reading the hbd for about a week
now, and have learned a whole lot from the archives.  Maybe it will get
better with time?  Yea, maybe the Pope will stop by and bless my beer too!

Bill Tobler
Confused in Texas


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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:50:47 +1000
From: James_E_Pearce at nag.national.com.au
Subject: Re: Bottling bucket necessary?


Jeff Renner writes:

>When judging, I am often amazed at the thick layer of fluffy yeast on the
>bottom of bottles, making it difficult to pour a clear beer, especially
if,
>as is often the case, it is highly carbonated and the evolving fizz stirs
>up the yeast.  With a little patience, it is easy to greatly reduce the
>yeast.

Yes, and for a beer that is to be judged in a competition that regards
yeast sediment as a defect this would be appropriate.

However I am still unconvinced that yeast sediment, (or even some degree of
chill haze), is a defect in beer in the real world.  I grew up with a
cloudy, yeasty (commercial) beer and it is still one of my favourites!

Having said that, before I transferred the beer to a separate container for
bottling, the last couple of beers were always all yeast and no beer!

James in Melbourne




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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 01:28:09 -0800
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Oh, now I get it...

Last year I won a brewing contest in a New York competition, and the
judges and organizer got so toasted that they gave my prize to one of
the judges.  But I've learned to mop the floor well enough that my
wife's feet no longer stick, and she has acquired a taste for
Doppelbock, Belgian Double, and Stout such that she doesn't seem to
mind.

Besides, she never complains about me spending money on beer because I
always seem to have enough homebrew to keep my friends happy.

> From: ThomasM923 at aol.com

> Louder grumbling when the brewing smells filled the house. Then one
> day I won a couple of awards in a competition. One prize was a gift
> certificate for a brewpub in NYC. When I told my wife, she looked
> astonished...
> 
> - -----------"You mean you can WIN stuff?!!"-------------
> 
> Well, that made the rest of the brewing season go a little smoother...


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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:18:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: George De Piro's comments on "Kelly's stuck lager..."


Steve managed to slur out:


> I was
> also trying my first starter wort pressure-canning 'speriment and noticed
> there was some break material in the bottom of the Mason jars before they
> cooled enough to touch. (I can't see this effect at the end of the boil in
> my kettle, so until now it was just theoretical.)

Pressure cooking your wort will produce *a lot* more break material,
and sometimes the break material will actually form solids.  What
you're seeing is normal.  High temperatures and pressures are cool.
Just decant the beautiful, clear, malty wort off the break, and
happily go on your way.

 -SM-



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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:02:51 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: phenols

Matthew Comstock in Cinncity writes re ... Subject: Blue beer/Red
cabbage/anthocyanins citing a lot of good web resources ....

>The pH sensitive compounds [...] are athocyanins:
There are in excess of 270 anthocyanins identified in plants - probably more
in reality.  These flavanoids are part of the more complex 'biphenol'
compounds that are so diverse in nature.  Generally as more methyl or
methoxy groups are added to the phenolic rings the redder the compounds
gets.  As more hydroxyl groups are added the compound gets bluer.

>Less well known is their role as free radical
>scavengers and as antilipoperoxidants.
Some anti-lipo-oxidants/peroxidants are phenolics that prevent oxidation
(and flavor spoilage) of oils and fatty acids(lipids) by oxidizing
themselves.  The reason that fish get an 'off', oxidized oil,  aroma quickly
while a can of olive oil lasts a long time is largely is largely due to
phenolics.  Certain phenolic compounds act as a major inhibitors to beer
oxidation.  And for small amounts of oxidation this is great - since
oxidized phenolics are a lot less objectionable than, for example, oxidized
oils.  At higher oxidation levels the oxidized phenols (which are bitter)
form astringent polyphenols and tannins and ... well it's still probably
better than oxidized oils, but it's not good.

>I wonder if 'red cabbage' indicator solutions would be sensitive
>enough to use for mash pH (I don't mash yet).
It probably is - but the issue is uniformity .  Most red plants contain
about 5 or 6  different anthocyanidins. The number and specifics and
quantities vary from specie to specie. The extent of each varies with
growing conditions, and each is likely to shift color at a different pH.

>I also wonder if you
>could make your own pH paper, by dipping paper in a solution of red
>cabbage juice and letting it dry.
Very probably. One common pH colorimetric indicator (is it phenolphthalein
or litmus paper or both ?)  is of similar origin.

I'd like to commend Matt on the science experiment for his 2 & 4 year old.
Some other experiments with plant phenolics, simple enough to adapt to a
kitchen-lab are available in 'Biology of Plant Phenolics' J.R.L Walker,
Edward Arnold Pub., 1975, chapter 6.  Among other nuggets adapted from that
source.

Phenolics can be extracted from plant matter using acidified methanol.  The
methanol is available at a hardware store, phosphoric can be used for
acidification. though hydrochloric (muriatic at the pool  supply shop) is
preferred.  Acetic acid in the form of white vinegar also does a good job.

Potatoes and apples contain diphenol-oxidase(DPO) enzymes that in the
presence of oxygen, oxidize the simple phenolic compounds in the white
flesh.  The oxidized phenols quickly polymerize into red and brown colored
polyphenols.  This suggests a number of simple experiments suitable for a
2-80 year old with a bit of curiosity.

1/ A dilute ascorbic acid (available from a vitamin shop or from a crushed
vitamin C tablet) solution is a very effective anti-oxidant , preventing cut
apples and potatoes from browning/reddening.

2/ Chloride ions are reported to act an enzyme inhibitor for DPO - so
rinsing cut potatoes in a table salt solution inhibit the enzyme and slow
the browning/reddening.  I've never tried this with apples.

3/ The effect of temperature on the enzymatic browning can be studied
easily.  Generally you should expect increasing rates of browning with
temperature until you get up to a temp where the DPO enzyme is denatured.

4/ The effects of O2 as a necessary part of the oxidation can be studied if
you have a CO2 tank or alternatively omit some of the O2 by covering with
oil.

All of the above also yield practical food handling tips as well.  The
plant's logic is that the polyphenols are somewhat antifungal/antibacterial,
and these can form a 'scab' over an insect bite.  Something similar happens
when barley seed is attacked by insects or by fungi.

Although paper chromatography is the most common method in the lit of
separating the various phenolics, the gel chromatography recently (Nov, Dec
98 ?) described in the Scientific American 'Amateur Scientist' column (by
Shawn Carlson?) should work too.  The SciAmer article used 3 - 9v batteries,
a little plastic tupperware type soap dish and an agar-agar gel to separate
various materials.  If you extract some phenolic matter you should be able
to separate the different phenolics into several colored dots using the
SciAmer apparatus.

Steve





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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:40:06 -0800
From: "L & K Rossi" <wetpetz at oberon.ark.com>
Subject: Dave's stuck ferment

Now I don't know if Dave Riedel has this concern or if it is even a
possibility but I have a tale of brewing woes that he may want to check
into.

Dave writes that he ferment is stuck at 1.025 on a brew that seems to have
been otherwise perfect except for the poorly stored yeast.

Awhile ago my brewing partner was doing an ESB.  All was fine in the brewing
process and his original gravity started off a bit lower than he intended
but he was still happy to ferment it out.  Three weeks latter and after
repitching his yeast a couple times his brew was stuck at 1.020 when it
should have gone down to at least 1.010.  He gave up on it and added gelatin
to clear, then bottled it.  The beer tasted fine!
    Later the O.G. of his next batch was 10 points over his target!  He
showed up at my home to get my hydrometer and discovered that at some point
between brewing the ESB and checking the final gravity the paper scale in
the hydrometer had slipped and was ruined.
    The culprit was the combo hydrometer/thief he was storing the hydrometer
in.  It seems that he set the hydrometer into it for storage but it drooped
to the bottom too hard causing the slip in the scale.
    The first thing Dave should check is his hydrometer.

Layne
Campbell River, BC
about 3 hrs North of Dave....




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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 07:49:12 -0500
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Oxidation at bottling

To the bottlers:

There has been a significant amount of dialog regarding oxidation at
bottling lately.  We all understand the potential risks of introducing air
into the beer.   However, I question if introduction of a small amount of
air into homebrew is really as much of a problem as I've heard lately (even
from George De Piro, whom I REALLY hesitate to question).

 I have always been under the impression that commercial brewers have a
bigger problem with air than do homebrewers since the yeast have been
filtered out in commercial brews.  I have always been under the impression
that the yeast in homebrew will gobble up what little oxygen gets introduced
into the beer during gentle transfers so that the oxygen really isn't a
problem unless one is VERY careless in the transfers.  In other words, does
prepurging the receiving vessel REALLY make a significant difference?

Whenever I bottle, I always have a few that get a significant amount of
gurgling from the filler.  I assume these have more air introduced into them
than other bottles that are filled more gently.  I always have put a rubber
band around these to identify them as possibly susceptible to oxidation.  I
have never been able to tell that these taste any different than the others.
(I suppose I will hear from many of you that ALL of my beer has been
oxidized and, of course, I can't tell a difference!)

Comments and flames are welcome.
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA


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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 07:54:22 -0600
From: Stephen Johnson <Stephen.Johnson at vanderbilt.edu>
Subject: Mash for Breakfast

My thanks to Jeff Renner (I think he mentioned it in a post last month) for
his suggestion of adding some crushed malt to oats as an added treat on
cold mornings.  I did just that this morning, adding about 1/4 cup of
crushed Munich and Pale Ale malt to my usual 3/4 cup of rolled oats.  I
added about 1 and 1/2 cups of hot water to "mash" in, and let it sit for
about 20 minutes before zapping it in the microwave for another 10 minutes.
 I didn't bother to check for starch conversion, but... Wow!  Malt aroma
and a nutty sweetness (not to mention a day's worth of fiber!) all in one
bowl for breakfast.  I think I've figured out a way to appease the craving
I have for brewing, since I'm so busy lately with college teaching and
completing my dissertation.  Maybe the next step is to try the "coffee
maker" brewing process that appeared in a recent issue of one of the
homebrewing publications...

Steve Johnson, President
Music City Brewers
Nashville, TN

Gruel never tasted better!



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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:18:28 -0500
From: Brad Trowbridge <trowb at tsp.sheridan.com>
Subject: blue beer

Regarding a post from about a week ago on blue corn and more recently
the red cabbage thread, I thought I might add an experience I just had.
About 2 weeks ago I decided to brew a blueberry ale.  I added 3 pounds
of frozen blueberries to the kettle immediately after turning off the
heat.  This turned the wort a dark purplish-blue color that I was sure
was going to stain my fermenting bucket.  I was also sure that I the
wife and I would be drinking blue ale.  After about 2 weeks in the
fermenter, I bottled--to my surprise--a bright pinkish-red colored ale.
Tasted good at bottling, a nice light blueberry aftertaste.  Just
thought I'd share this experience in light of recent posts.

Brad


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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:54:52 -0800
From: "Michael P. Beck" <stilts at usa.net>
Subject: Drilling Enamel Canning Pots

Jim DiPalma wrote:
After a 90 minute drive to the mega mall of mega malls called Potomac
Mills in Dale City, VA, I finally bought a nice big 33 qt. enamel on
steel pot (funnily enough, my girlfriend, who looks at the place as a
Mecca of shopping, found NOTHING!  MUHAHAHAH!).  I was wondering if it's
wise to drill a hole in the side to attach a spigot.  I know the stuff
chips easily.  And if not, what's the best way to remove the break
material from the wort before putting it in the fermenter?		


cheers,
mikey.
BSSC/121


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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 08:43:36
From: "William W. Macher" <macher at telerama.lm.com>
Subject: A pseudo widget question :-)

A pseudo widget question :-)

On Tue, 02 Feb. John Coulter <jac at mira.net> wrote:

>...I purchased a carbonation stone which I used
>to nitrogenate the stout and found that it made a 
>significant difference to the head retention. I had lots 
>more tiny bubbles dissolved in the brew which helped 
>keep the head alive after pouring. Before using the
>stone I could still pour a perfect creamy head but it didn't 
>last long enough. Now it will outlast a can of imported 
>Guinness with the widget.

The widget....the widget...Hey! I gotta idea for another 
gadget!

Or maybe just another hair-brained idea...

Has anyone used a nitrogen bottle and an airstone to put a 
nitrogen head on a glass of beer AFTER the beer has been 
poured?  

Seems like the effect would be widget-like.  Drop the 
airstone in the glass of beer,  turn on the nitrogen,  let the 
creamy head rise...

The memory of rising foam as I oxygenate my wort prior to 
fermentation is the seed that germinated this idea. Has 
anyone already tried using an airstone to raise a nitrogen 
head in their glass? Could there...should there... be a 
nitrogen bottle in my future?

If this would work it seems like it would offer a lot of
flexibility.  Why wouldn't it work?

Bill







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Date: 03 Feb 1999 09:28:29 -0500
From: Christophe Frey <cfrey at ford.com>
Subject: Sierra Nevada Changing...?

to: post@hbd.org

Larry O'mahoney ask: "Anyone notice any recent changes in Sierra Nevada Pale
Ale? On the plus side it seems to have a little more hoppiness and mouthfeel
than in years past. But now it give me a wicked headache. That never happened
before!"

About two weeks ago a fellow brewer stated they had heard (very
unsubstantiated rumor mode on) that SNPA was now utilizing Magnum hops for
bittering, versus Perle. As I am on my 11th iteration of SNPA (15 gallons
sitting patiently in their secondaries for the weekend when they will be both
kegged and bottled for the upcoming National Homebrew Day Brew-athon, Home
Brew used-supply tag sale and bar-b-que at the Barr House Brewery), I take my
SNPA cloning VERY seriously.

My understanding is that the perle hop originated from Germany, bred from an
English Northern Brewer variety. I have typically found it's AA to range from
8%-10%. My understanding of the magnum hop variety is limited. I believe it is
a relative newcomer, with AA in the 15%. One of my local homebrew supply
stores had it in flower form last year, but tells me it is only available
through his distributor in pellet form this year (?!?). It is marketed as a
super-high alpha variety that is smoother (like Nugget), unlike some other
super-high alpha hops (chinock and bullion come to mind).

So, what am I driving at? I guess I am trying to tap into the collective to
hear from anyone else who has noticed a change in our beloved SNPA, knows of
any changes or has any information from or contacts with Sierra Nevada to find
out if they have indeed made any changes. As I haven't actually PURCHASED any
SNPA in quite some time, I will pick up a six pack this weekend and see if I
can notice any changes. As far as the hangover goes, I haven't a clue.

Crispy Fry Barr House Brewery

Sincerely,
Chris P. Frey
Strategic Planning & New Product Development  337-1642
chris.frey-ford at e-mail.com


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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:29:47 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: fermenting under pressure

>Jon Sandlin <sandlinj at ucs.orst.edu> asks:

>	I can't remember where, but I remember reading about fermenting
>under pressure to lower the temperature of the fermentation.  Supposedly
>(from the reading) this is what some German breweries do. is this
>information false?  If not, what pressure levels are needed to lower the
>temperatures?  Is it possible to use some kind of pressure relief valve
>on a keg?  Any help would be greatly appreciated!

You may have read it on HBD.  It doesn't lower the temperature.  It permits
fermenting and lagering at higher temps with the same results (supposedly)
as at traditional temps(48F and 32F) and atm. pressure.  As I recall,
fermenting and lagering at 30 psi permits 68F fermentation and 50F lagering
(or was it 58?).  Not only are these temperatures less costly to maintain,
fermentation and lagering are done far more quickly.

Not all yeasts are happy at these pressures.  One strain has been selected
and is commonly used in Germany.  Dan McConnell has it at Yeast Culture Kit
Co. mailto:YCKCo at aol.com ,
http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/yckco/yckcotbl.html .  I'm not sure if it's
in his regular catalog or or if you have to ask for it.  It is my
understanding that you can't repitch yeast that has gone through this
pressure fermentation.

Several Ann Arbor Brewers' Guild members were going to put pressure
guage/relief valves on kegs and try this last summer, but I haven't heard
the results.  The fact that none of them is singing the praises of this
procedure may say something about it.  Or it may not.  As for me, since I
have a chest freezer and controller (and my basement fermenting closet is
presently 48F), I'll stick to tradition.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 10:27:27 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Bleach shouldn't be acidified

I will agree in theory with what AJ says regarding the safe
acidification of chlorine, but in practice I would keep away from it for
a number of reasons (and AJ may be advocating that, too-- I just want to
push a little harder in case there are some folks that feel adventurous)

1.  HOCl (predominently existing at acid pH's) is a strong oxidizer and
quite corrosive.
2.  HOCl is easily degraded by organic material-- i.e. soils and
bacteria.  At higher pH's there is a "reservoir" to create new HOCl (as
HOCl exists at an equilibrium balance).  Thus the HOCl, once
deactivated, will be replenished-- that won't happen if you've forced
the equilibrium all the way over and there's no -OCl left.  This makes
contact time vs. concentration a bit more dicey as you're not completely
sure what you're working with.
3.  Disinfection is quite complete at higher pH's (with proper contact
time)-- so there's really no reason for an acidified bleach.
4.  If you aren't careful, it is dangerous.

Everything AJ says regarding HOCl, pH, and disinfection is right on the
money, but in our hobby it's really not necessary.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.



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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 10:23:50 -0500
From: "Ken Schramm" <schramk at wcresa.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Call for Mazer Cup Judges

This is an open invitation to all BJCP or otherwise qualified judges.... 


The Mazer Cup judging will be held Saturday, February 27 at 2:00 pm.  The 
location is the home of Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor , Michigan, Listed in The 
National Registry of Historic (Hysteric?) Brewing Buildings:  Exactly 0 
miles from Jeff Renner.  Spencer Thomas,  Bill Pfeiffer (former AHA Mead 
Maker of the Year), Dan McConnell, and Jeff Renner are some of the HBD 
contributors who will attend.  A grilled turkey and Renner-brot are on the 
menu.

Several members of the Ann Arbor Brewers Guild have volunteered beds for 
judges.  Ann Arbor is just off of I-94, about four hours from Chicago, 20 
minutes from Detroit Metro Airport,  and 40 minutes from downtown Detroit. 
 This is an exceptional opportunity for judges to taste an incredible 
variety of meads at one place and time.  I would welcome any and all 
judges who are interested.  Dan McConnell has applied for BJCP sanctioning.
   

Please feel free to contact me ast this E-Mail address, or to contact me 
at my home at (248) 816-1592.  



Alan McKay: Wo sind dein umlauten?  So viel "e" macht das schwer zu lesen. 
 Aber es war interesant.  Vielen Dank.

Yours Brewly,
Ken Schramm
12 light years behind Jeff Renner 
I went to Alaska.  The fishing was so good, I thought I was there 
yesterday.

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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:41:34 -0500
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Oxygen in the beer at end of fermentation

After reading about all the concern about keeping oxygen separated from
fermenting or fermented wort, I became concerned about the air lock.  I
started playing this little mind game and concluded that the oxygen level
at the surface of the wort and even in the wort will be the same as in the
outside air; throughout the entire fermentation cycle.   I know, since I am
an electrical engineer, I probably shouldn't be playing mind games like
this but, how else can I learn?  

Here is the mind game.  The air outside the fermenter is partially O2
(around 20% if I remember--but the exact amount is not important to this
game).  Since it is in contact with the liquid in the air lock, that liquid
should pick up a certain amount of O2 based on temperature, pressure, etc. 
I believe that amount is independent of the amount of CO2 in that liquid
isn't it?  Now, the O2 dissolved in the liquid in the air lock is in
contact with the air inside the fermenter.  If the partial pressure due to
O2 inside the fermenter is less than that outside the fermenter, the
dissolved O2 in the liquid in the air lock will come out of solution into
the volume of air in the fermenter.  Thus, at equilibrium, the
concentration of O2 inside the fermenter is the same at that in the
atmosphere.  Using the same logic, the O2 in the fermenter should then
dissolve into the wort.  Therefore, the concentration of O2 in the wort in
the fermenter will be the same as if the wort were open to the air.  This
concentration will be replenished even as the yeast consumes the O2.  Thus,
the wort always "has access" to 1 atmosphere of O2 up until the cap is put
on the bottle.  Now, once the cap is on the bottle, the supply of O2 is
cutoff and the O2 in the wort and head space combined determines the amount
O2 degradation.  Also, unless the quantity of O2 in the air in the head
space is significant compared to that in the wort, the O2 in the head space
shouldn't contribute much to the degradation.

Where have I gone wrong?

Do I not understand the processes involved?

Does the small surface area in the air lock throttle the process so
equilibrium is never achieved?  

Should I be using a different type of air lock; one that acts more like a
diode (the EE in me coming through) and only lets air out?

Is the amount of O2 (the number of molecules) in the head space appreciable
compared to that in the beer?  If not, why be concerned about it?

If this analysis is correct then a lot of the things I am doing to keep O2
separated from the beer are not necessary.

Inquiring mind(s) want(s) to know; experts please help.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
0 Degrees 30.21 Min North, 4 Degrees 05.11 Min. East of Jeff Renner    


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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:52:54 -0600
From: Jim Layton <a0456830 at rlemail.dseg.ti.com>
Subject: More on raw wheat mashing

In a previous post I asked about mash schedules for a wit beer using a
large fraction of raw wheat:

>Is boiling of the wheat unnecessary? If boiling the wheat is not
>required, are there benefits? What are some of the pros and cons? (OK,
>just the fact that you are doing the cereal mash is a con from the
>standpoint of added time, labor, and cleanup)

George De Piro responded:

>>Regarding Jim's question about wheat as an adjunct:
>>it does not have to be cooked like rice and corn.
>>Wheat gelatinizes at or below saccharification temperature (52-64C, 
>>125.5-147F),
>>so it can be milled and used in an infusion mash (you will probably >>want 
>>to use a
>>protein rest when using large quantities of raw wheat).

Thanks, George. I accept that boiling the wheat is not required, but it
seems to me that there may be advantages to doing so. The following
refers to a cereal mash approach for a wit beer (50% raw wheat), where
the raw wheat (and 10% malt) is mashed at around 150F for 15 minutes,
then boiled for 15 minures before being combined with the main mash
(which is already at 100F) to hit protein rest, followed by rest(s) at
saccarification temperatures.  

Boiling will cause some fraction (how much?) of the larger wheat
proteins to coagulate and break down gums which could impede the lauter.
Boiling should also solubilize more of the protein in the wheat. Boiling
should result in a lesser amount of undesirable soluable protein being
carried into the protein rest. I speculate that boiling might make a
shorter protein rest possible. My theory is that the cereal mash, along
with a shorter protein rest, should result in a larger amount of the
desirable proteins being carried over into the finished beer. Yes, I
have made infusion mashed wits, two in fact, that were heck to lauter
and still had mediocre body and head retention. 

Does this make sense? Comments, anyone?

Jim Layton (Howe, TX)


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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 10:04:55 -0600
From: ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO <skotrat at wwa.com>
Subject: Re: beer bullets

hmmm, 

I may be one of the few on the HBD who has a wife that gets angry when we
are out of beer and I am not brewing. 

My wife encourages my brewing and often guides me back to reality stylewise
and sets me straight when I get into a heavy brewing schedule of the same
types of beer. 

I get comments like... "Another Damn Wheat Beer? We are out of Porter you
know?" and "Why is everyhting on tap 9%? Are you Crazy?"

When we moved back in November to a new house I was unable to brew for
almost 4 months. Damn we ran out of beer for the first time in 3 years. I
was told that I needed to brew every weekend in January to get back up to
steam. 

I can't beleive that everyones spouse hates the smell and all. I know that
the time involved in brewing bugs my family from time to time so I started
brewing bigger batch sizes so I would be brewing less often. 

Are there any other brewers out there that are getting positive responses
from their spouses. I wonder sometimes, so I just have to ask. 

C'ya!

 -Scott "Always brew in Plaid" Abene


ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT
Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>
http://skotrat.dynip.com/skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)

"The More I know About Cathy Ewing, The More The AHA SUCKS"



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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:09:29 -0800
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Great Western Munich

Anyone have experience with using domestic GW Munich malt
to make continental lagers? I generally use German or Belgian
Munichs, but I got some GW stuff cheap.

Thanks.

Bryan Gros    gros at bigfoot.com
Oakland, CA

Organizer, 1999 National Bay Area Brew Off
http://www.valhallabrewing.com/~thor/dboard/babo99.htm



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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:40:00 -0700 
From: "Timmons, Frank" <Frank.Timmons at alliedsignal.com>
Subject: Copper in Brewing Equipment

In response to the worried brewer questioning about copper toxicity from
cooking utensils, I would just say that the main concern with corrosion and
subsequent leaching of any metal into food or water is cleaning. Copper,
aluminum, stainless steel, titanium, and all other "corrosion resistant"
metals all work by building up a thin layer of metal oxide on their surface
which protects the metal underneath. If you scrub, grind, scrape, etc. that
layer off, it will reform and in the meantime leach metal salts and oxides
into whatever is in the container. In the case of copper, the layer is not
very tightly adhering and can be removed by having acidic substances sitting
in the container, but as long as the vessel is not highly polished before
use and the contact time is fairly short, the amount of corrosion and
leaching is miniscule. I imagine that the dire consequences foretold in the
original post are for extreme amounts of copper being ingested. Many metal
salts can cause fairly violent gastrointestinal reactions.

Just as an aside, I recently read an old article in a metallurgy technical
journal published in 1960 about a catsup (or ketchup) factory built in the
early 1900's  whose old copper piping and cooking vessels had worn out so
some bright young engineer decided to upgrade the plant to stainless steel
throughout. When the plant was restarted after the new equipment was
installed, the catsup didn't taste the same, and no amount of tweaking the
recipe could duplicate the old taste. The company eventually went out of
business. I once talked to an old brewmaster from Schlitz who swore that the
beer produced in stainless steel is inferior to that produced in copper. I
couldn't believe him then, but maybe he was right.


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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:05:08 -0800
From: "Peter Zien" <PZ.JDZINC at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Spruce

Hi Mike,

I recently made an all grain beer with a heavy spruce profile.  My advice
for  you is to be careful with spruce additions, especially if you choose to
use spruce essence.  Most varieties are heavily concentrated and if used in
excess (or as suggested on the bottle!) will produce a turpentine/solvent
flavor.

The origin of spruce beer dates to the American revolutionary period.  The
beers were often dark (20+SRM) and were not made with hops.  The spruce
acted as the bittering agent.  The beer that I made started out to be a
juniper, honey and smoked malt beer (Scandinavian Gotlandsdricka) with no
hops.  However, upon tasting the beer prior to bottling I found it to be too
sweet.  The juniper had dried the beer out a bit, but did not impart enough
bitterness to balance.  So I added spruce essence to the bottling bucket.
The proportion was 1/2 teaspoon for the 5 gallon batch.  I was amazed at how
this small amount influenced the beer.  It definitely helped to curb the
overwhelming sweetness that had previously dominated the flavor profile.

A good article on spruce beer, along with two recipes, can be found in the
1994 Special Issue of Zymurgy.
Another spruce beer recipe appears in The Homebrewer's Garden by Joe Fisher
and Dennis Fisher.  Good luck!

Peter Zien
pz.jdzinc at worldnet.att.net





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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 10:24:25 -0800
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Re: Use of Copper in Brewing

Ryan asks a legitimate question about the FDA's general prohibition on
the use of copper in the food industry. (Their policy being a warning
not to use it because it will dissolve in acidic foods and cause copper
poisening.)

Beer and Wort are an exception to behavior of copper in acidic foods.
(The metallurgical reason being the difference between oxidizing and
non-oxidizing acids.)(beer and wort are non-oxidizing) When the FDA
formulated their policy several years ago, Jim Nabors of the Association
of Brewers contacted me to put together some reference material to
present to the FDA to make an exception for the brewing industry. I
don't know if the FDA ever took the recommendation and incorporated it
or not.

While copper is readily dissolved by acidic foods such as tomato sauce,
wort and beer do not dissolve it (although copper oxides are). As long
as you keep your copper wort chillers and brew kettles clean (not shiny,
but clean) the copper will develop a dull patina that will be inert to
the beer and wort. After use you should only rinse or at most use a mild
detergent to release any organic residue. Only use acidic cleaners like
vinegar if you have to clean the item to bare metal. Never use caustic
cleaners like bleach, they will blacken the copper with oxides that will
readily dissolve into the wort, which could raise the copper levels
enough to impair the yeast or cause poisoning.

There has never been a documented case of copper poisoning associated
with brewing or it would be noted in a medical reference on Copper that
I have.

Hopefully this about covers it,
Any questions, just ask.
John Palmer
metallurgist and brewer currently employed in the medical device
industry.


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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:27:27 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: beer bullets by volume

Now that's buying beer bullets by the case.

Thomas Murray
Maplewood, NJ Said about his wife.

> - -----------"You mean you can WIN stuff?!!"-------------
>
> Well, that made the rest of the brewing season go a little smoother...
>
>



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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 16:29:49 -0500
From: Andrew McGowan <AMCGOWAN at WPO.HCC.COM>
Subject: Wanted Sam Adams Boston Lager clone recipe - all grain

I've searched the Cats Meow, Gambrinius Mug and
the Sam Adams web site.  From the SA site I've
gotten the basic specs, malts and hops.  I realize they
use a decoction, but can I duplicate that maltiness
another way?  I haven't tried it yet, but what about
Melanodin malt.  Would its effect simulate a decoction
maltiness, and if so, in what grist porportion? 
Also, any info regarding hop schedule would be
very useful.  Any help would be appreciated.  Private
email is fine.



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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:24:21 -0500
From: David Johnson <dmjohnson at pol.net>
Subject: Spruce

Brewers,
    I have been away from the digest for awhile and am pleased to see 
many names that I recognize. I am sure my absence wasn't noticed in 
the least. 

     I do have an experience with a spruce beer and will share. One of 
my brews was an extract based porter taken from a recipe from 
Papazian. In this brew, I used a great variety of ingredients. The 2 
that came to dominate the beer were ginger and spruce. I still have 
some of that beer, almost 3 years later. It just screamed  spruce at 
first and began to be drinkable about a year later. Now it is a 
pleasant and still very flavorable beer. My local experts detect no 
off flavors or oxidation yet and I wonder if there aren't preservative 
actions from the spruce. I don't have my brewing notebook with me, but 
I remember using a cup of new growth from blue spruce. By the way, I 
also used dry yeast. I have heard that there are specific varieties of 
spruce that are better for brewing. You might want to chew leaves from 
a few different varieties. Obviously, spring is the time to try this. 
Older leaves don't have as good a flavor. Use careful sanitation and 
avoid oxidation, you may have this one for awhile.

Also, this is my first post with a new mailer, so I apologize for any 
format weirdness.

Dave


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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 18:14:38 -0800
From: The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com>
Subject: Re:RE: GF whatever

Ron Says:

<quote>

Sounds to me like you do not have enough room in your RIMS for a GFCI,
poor
planning if so.  You refuse to acknowledge the benefits of a GFCI
because
you screwed up your design and just can't fit it in!    ;>)

</quote>

Hey now, don't go calling IGOR a RIMS. He gets all bothered by that,
since he is a HEARMS(tm). 

Hmmmmm......Can you trademark an Acronym? If so, don't be usin the term
HEARMS, or I'll have to tell you that I own it!  ;^)

Wayne Holder
Long Beach CA
http://andinator.com/zymico


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Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 22:34:51 -0500
From: "Brook Raymond" <brook at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Bottling Live Beer

When priming beer for bottling, why worry about small amounts of oxygen 
(from the bottling bucket, etc) staling the beer?  Wouldn't this oxygen
actually help the yeast ferment out the priming sugars?  I read the comments
that oxygenating cold wort is essential, so what's the difference?  I
understand the wisdom of low oxygen bottling with carbonated and filtered
(dead) beer.  With that in mind, what affect does filtering beer (to remove
yeast) have on the shelf life?

Brook Raymond


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---