---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  End of St. Pats Thread ("Stanley E. Prevost")
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  Kegging ("Philip Kokoczka")
  Spousal approval - machine gun Kelly (Crispy275)
  Re: beer bullets (Kevin TenBrink)
  More beer bullets (PAUL W HAAF JR)
  Re: Beer Bullets (ctopoleski)
  Re: beer bullets (Joel Plutchak)
  Re:Beer Bullets (Spouses) (smwood)
  Kraeusening and Oxygen ("Alan McKay")
  Oxidation at bottling ("Alan McKay")
  Life Is Good! ("Brian Wurst")
  Ale wife (Vachom)
  Re: Copper in Brewing Equipment (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Bleach shouldn't be acidified (John Wilkinson)
  Pennsylvania "Swankey"? (Mark Warrington)
  oxidation at bottling ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Beer Bullets. (pbabcock)
  Re: beer bullets (Matthew Arnold)
  on rolling the proverbial dice . . . ("Spies, Jay")
  Re. Oxygen in the beer at end of fermentation (Jeffry D Luck)
  Re: Brewing spouses (Tidmarsh Major)
  maximum alcohol, St. Pats and soldering stainless (Eric Dreher)
  Re:Sierra Nevada Pale Ale (Andrew Smith)
  AFCHC (Jonathan Nail)
  RE: Pubs In London ("John Elsworth")
  Re: Momily ("Dana H. Edgell")
  Force Carbonation (Drewmeister)
  foam formation and stand (Dave Sapsis)
  B3 Kettles ("Spies, Jay")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:58:00 -0600
From: "Stanley E. Prevost" <sprevost at ro.com>
Subject: End of St. Pats Thread

Doug Evans (Vinbrew) defends St. Pats not having a toll-free number.

Stan:
>Subject: Re: Response to St. Pats
>response.  Apparently there is an email problem somewhere.  I bring this up
>only to point out to those having a problem that there may be a technical
>glitch somewhere that is not apparent.  Things could be resolved a little
>easier if she had a toll free number.

Doug:
How would that help?  Quite frankly those 800 numbers are expensive.  I've
seen St. Pats prices and folks let me tell you, As I am starting my own
homebrew business, St. Pats does not have a lot of mark-up on its products.
the key to her business is low overhead.  an 800 number would add to it.

Stan again:
It would help by allowing one to have a way to access the supplier when the
normal way does not seem to be working.

Doug:
Is
it really going to break you to pick up the phone and pay a dollar or two to
resolve a problem?

Stan:
Maybe not, but if I am trying to resolve a problem which was a mistake on
the other end, It shouldn't be my expense.  I have a business also, and I
understand expenses.  I also understand striving to get things right so that
I don't incur customer ill will and have to incur expenses to correct
mistakes.  If there are no penalties for mistakes, there is no improvement.

Note:  I did not make the original post to bash Lynne, and I don't want it
to seem like I am.  And Doug, I hope you don't run your business so that it
is your customer's responsibility to right your errors, and there will be
some.  I have been looking forward to patronizing your new business when you
get it going.  And I intend to continue buying from Lynne also.  But there
are lots of other shops out there and I will go where it is best for me to
go.

Regards,
Stan




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Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:21:41 -0600
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

			The Jethro Gump Report

>From: "Bonnell, Doug" <DBonnell at BreeceHill.com>
>Subject: Materials for Washers and O-rings

Buna, Viton, Silicone, Teflon......et al....
	These are all common gasket, o-ring, seal materials used in brewing.... at 
least by me......the other substances, I know nothing about......
	Buna seems to be the common offering when buying equipment such as
pumps.......(the stats for properties have been previously listed, so I
won't bother, you know where to get them)....it works fine...but not as long
lasting as .......
	Teflon is a high grade performer...except for the fact that all teflon
gaskets I have used eventually gather some stains that while easily mobile
under a thumbnail, you just can't seem to get rid of....being white, (ass
all I have used are) one is continually reminded that there might be a
problem coming....I won't buy them anymore....
	Viton....love it....and prefer it in all seal applications, like in
pumps....high temp and long lasting....it is my preferred substance....
	Silicone....my favorite gasket for such as TC clamps, etc.....white in
color, and easily stained by iodophor, and other such stuff....it returns to
it's original brilliant white after a PBW overnight.....
	For my money, silicone and viton rule.....

>From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
>Subject: DRY YEAST/Response to Rob
	Mister Rolfe, I'm happy that what works for you, "works for you."
	I make no effort to slam any yeast...never have, never will..
	I only comment on my own practices, and in the course of doing so, praise
Lallemands product, as I have done in these pages of HBD for many years ....

	But to suggest that .......

>Your post basically gives your slant on the 'touchy subject'
>and I think I know where your coming from (as you have a
>financial interest in it - as you stated).

	is uncalled for, Sir....my promotion of their product is a long lived and
ongoing fact....research the archives....in fact the work has been done for
you.....seek out "Lallemand", "Nottingham", "Dry Yeast," etc as search words
in previous searches on the HBD archives.....

	I praise what works for me.......and will continue to do so.....if I wanted
to 'give a slant,' and deny your right to 'know where I'm coming from,' I
would not have praised the product in the past, nor would I have disclosed
my association.....

	I apologize for annoying you with any criticism of your comments.....

Jethro Gump

Rob Moline
brewer at isunet.net

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"



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Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 03:51:03 PST
From: "Philip Kokoczka" <philip63 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Kegging

As a frequent bottler- now trying to becoming a frequent kegger - I have 
a few questions regarding cornelius kegs (which I picked up for next to 
nothing):

1. What do you use to lubricate the o rings etc.. on the corny kegs?

2. Is there a source for new beer out tubes for the corny's? (Got a 
couple of kegs with beat up tubes-had a hard time getting them out to 
clean because they were all bent up-even a harder time getting them back 
in).

3. Is there a source where new poppets (the things that the quick 
disconnects connect to) can be had?  (One of the poppet valves on one of 
my kegs is chipped). Are the poppet threads the same on all corny kegs?

4. Has anyone designed a homemade jockey box that will handle the 
cooling of beer fron two kegs at the same time? What size (dia. & 
length) coil did you use?

Thanks for your replies.

Phil 
Living in the home of the Jackson Brewing Co. & Original member of the 
Mug Club.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 06:53:40 EST
From: Crispy275 at aol.com
Subject: Spousal approval - machine gun Kelly

Scott "Always brew in Plaid" Abene asks "Are there any other brewers out there
that are getting positive responses from their spouses. I wonder sometimes, so
I just have to ask."	

He, he, he...	

My wife does not drink beer and hates the smell of the stuff (particularly
when I brewed in the kitchen). About three years ago she and her mother got
together and purchased 3 15.5 gallon kegs for me and indicated that I should
do whatever it takes to build my brewery in the garage so that the smell
wouldn't take over the house. She has her own passion (a horse), and used to
look at me with those eyes when she went to the barn for the day, but knowing
now that I am probably going to be brewing/kegging/bottling/racking or some
other brew related activity, doesn't worry herself about the time HER passion
takes.

Guess the moral of the story is support your SO's passion (and hopefully that
doesn't require both the mall and a credit card, or some guy named Fabio) and
give each other the time needed for pursuing these passions. I know this isn't
always practical, and sometimes impossible to time together, but for me it
works.	

The other day she was in the basement with me and looked around and stated,
"You know, we really should have a wet bar down here." He, he, he...



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 05:37:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Kevin TenBrink <zzymurgist at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: beer bullets


In yesterday's HBD, Scott Abene asked:

>>Are there any other brewers out there that are getting positive
responses from their spouses. I wonder sometimes, so I just have to
ask. 

C'ya!

 -Scott "Always brew in Plaid" Abene<<<



Not only do I get positive reactions from my spouse, but she is quite
willing to help out in the whole process...from mashing to bottling to
consuming.  If it was not for her, all my beers would be 100 IBU 7-10%
ABV monsters.  I do consider myself very lucky.

Kevin
Lansing, MI

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:04:06 -0500
From: PAUL W HAAF JR <haafbrau1 at juno.com>
Subject: More beer bullets

Here's a twist on the theme.  My wife HATES beer, but she doesn't stop
me,
and that leaves more for me.  Even better, she LOVES the smell of the
house
when I'm brewing.  Every few weeks or so, she'll ask me if I plan on
brewing
soon.  How's that for eating my cake and having another in the oven, or
is that
drinking my beer and having another in the fermenter?!
Paul Haaf 
"Boy meets beer, boy drinks beer, boy meets another beer."- Norm Peterson

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:29:49 -0500
From: ctopoleski at barents.com
Subject: Re: Beer Bullets

Skotrat writes :

"I can't beleive that everyones spouse hates the smell and all...

Are there any other brewers out there that are getting positive responses
from their spouses. I wonder sometimes, so I just have to ask."

My wife grew up in Kent, England and is very familiar with the smell of
hops on the vine. She is a big fan of malted milks and the like, so is not
bothered by the smell. In fact, if she arrives during the middle of my
brewing session, I know she is home by the sound of her "MMmmmmm!" She is
not into stout (so these are my private stock), but proclaims that she will
try anything that I brew - at least once :-). She is all into my brewing,
and while apartment constraints keep me from going all grain, she has
suggested that I do a partial mash in the kitchen. She has already given me
the go to price out all grain systems and components for when we get a
house in the near future. She even hinted that she would like to make the
next batch of pale ale with my supervision (remember that she is English
and therefore is a hazard in the kitchen). So, I think there are many
spouses out there who enjoy us enjoying ourselves. I only get in trouble
when I plan four weekends of brewing straight or leave stray
carboys/bottles/buckets/miscellaneous crap in our foyer.

Cj
TwoCat Capitol Homebrewery
Washington, DC




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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:40:30 -0600 (CST)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: beer bullets

Scott "Skotrat" Abene asks:
>Are there any other brewers out there that are getting positive responses
>from their spouses. I wonder sometimes, so I just have to ask. 

   I have it fairly good, too.  Not only am I the main cook in
the family so I don't have a problem getting "her" kitchen dirty,
but she only gets irked when I brew too many malty beers in a row--
she's a confirmed hophead.
   Now, taking too many weekends off to go judging does use up
beer bullets fairly quickly...
- --
Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
About a six hour drive south-southwest of Jeff Renner



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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 07:51:36 -0700
From: smwood at us.ibm.com
Subject: Re:Beer Bullets (Spouses)



I too have a spouse that is very much into my homebrewing efforts.  Shoot,
if it wasn't for her giving me a 'get started' kit for X-mas 3 years ago, I
might not have ever taken up the hobby.  She loves the smell of malt and
hops during brew day and is usually by my side offering a helping hand if
needed.  And now that I am (finally) getting geared up to start all-grain
brewing, she's helping me find the equipment I need at swap-meets or the
paper so we can proceed to the next level together.

Ok.... thats enough (you get the idea).... this is getting too
mushy........ keep brewing!

Steve Wood
Tucson, AZ.

P.S. - this digest is the best daily source of info (IMHO)!  Thanks to all
(janitors and contributors) for keeping this alive.




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Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 09:56:15 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Kraeusening and Oxygen

Leslie Michael Patrick asks :

My question to all is whether this minute amount of oxygen 
will cause staling flavours or will the krausen beer quickly 
absorb this oxygen?

The latter.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay		Nortel Networks
Norstar WinNT		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
amckay at nortelnetworks.com


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Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 10:00:58 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Oxidation at bottling

Fred L Johnson writes :
 "However, I question if introduction of a small amount of
  air into homebrew is really as much of a problem as I've 
  heard lately (even from George De Piro, whom I REALLY 
  hesitate to question)."

I'm with you 100% Fred.  This is a good example of what Jack
Schmidling calls a "momily", or what I see as an example of
someone wrongly applying mega-brewer "rules" to the homebrewer.
Happens all the time, and even the most respected brewers
do it.

Even Dave Miller, who was once the king of oxygenation 
fear-mongering, has since changed his views on the matter to
be more in line with what you and I believe.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay		Nortel Networks
Norstar WinNT		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
amckay at nortelnetworks.com


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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:03:49 -0600
From: "Brian Wurst" <brian at mail.netwave.net>
Subject: Life Is Good!

ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO sez:


>I can't beleive that everyones spouse hates the smell and all. I know that
>the time involved in brewing bugs my family from time to time so I started
>brewing bigger batch sizes so I would be brewing less often.
>
>Are there any other brewers out there that are getting positive responses
>from their spouses. I wonder sometimes, so I just have to ask.


My wife loves the smell and that's all...she's got a celiac disease that
prevents her from drinking any beer.  Her only complaint is when I brew on
weekends (or weeknights) when she and the kids are home, since it takes me away
from the family.  Luckily, I work at home (and very little at that) so I have
lots of time to brew.

Happy Trails!
Brian Wurst   brian at netwave.net   Lombard, Illinois
"Faced with the choice of changing one's mind, and proving that there is no need
to do so, almost everybody gets busy on the proof."  -John Kenneth Galbraith




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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:12:33 -0600 
From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us>
Subject: Ale wife

Say, Scott, your wife got any sisters?  Someone needs to devise a "brew
test" for homebrewers to administer to prospective mates BEFORE the
wedding--kinda like the Colts test Steve Guttenberg's fiancee has to pass in
the movie "Diner."  Sure would save a lot of conflict later.  

Mike 
New Orleans, LA


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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:51:33 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Copper in Brewing Equipment

"Timmons, Frank" <Frank.Timmons at alliedsignal.com> tells us of catsup
tasting different when made in stainless steel rather than copper and:

>I once talked to an old brewmaster from Schlitz who swore that the
>beer produced in stainless steel is inferior to that produced in copper. I
>couldn't believe him then, but maybe he was right.

Could be.  A similar problem occurred in the bourbon business when all
stainless steel column still began to replace the old copper ones.  It
seems the copper removes some unwanted, bad tasting sulfur compounds.  Now,
the distilleries with ss stills put scrap copper - old screens, pipes,
etc., in them.  (_Classic American Whiskies_ by Waymark and Harris, p.
63-64, and _Bourbon_ by Regan & Regan, p. 217-218.  No QDA here!)

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:55:53 -0600
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE: Bleach shouldn't be acidified

Rick Theiner wrote, among other things, in HBD #2945:

>1.  HOCl (predominently existing at acid pH's) is a strong oxidizer and
>quite corrosive.
>2.  HOCl is easily degraded by organic material-- i.e. soils and
>bacteria.  At higher pH's there is a "reservoir" to create new HOCl (as
>HOCl exists at an equilibrium balance).  Thus the HOCl, once
>deactivated, will be replenished-- that won't happen if you've forced
>the equilibrium all the way over and there's no -OCl left.  This makes
>contact time vs. concentration a bit more dicey as you're not completely
>sure what you're working with.
>3.  Disinfection is quite complete at higher pH's (with proper contact
>time)-- so there's really no reason for an acidified bleach.
>4.  If you aren't careful, it is dangerous.

I can't question the chemistry involved but I wonder at the logic of #2 and #3.
HOCL being easily degraded by organic material is mentioned as if that is
a problem but then #2 goes on to say that there won't be any left for
replenishment if all is converted at the beginning of the process.  This implies
that HOCL is desireable.  What if there is no more replenished if there is a
larger amount to start with?  Isn't degrading organic material what it is
supposed to be doing in the first place?  As to #3, shortening the time of
disinfection would seem to me to be a plus.  Wasn't that one of the objects of
acidifying in the first place?
As I said, I don't question the chemistry as I am certainly unqualified to do
that but I wonder about the other points.  What am I missing?

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - john.wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com


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Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 11:04:43 -0500
From: Mark Warrington <mark.s.warrington at usa.dupont.com>
Subject: Pennsylvania "Swankey"?

I was checking out the 1902 brewing text

"American Handy Book of the Brewing, Malting and Auxiliary Trades"
by Robert Wahl and Max Henius (Second Edition, 1902) which is available
online at:
http://hubris.engin.umich.edu:8080/Wahl/

I found the following entry under American Specialty Beers on page 779:

**********************************************************
                         PENNSYLVANIA "SWANKEY."

    This beer has a local reputation in some parts of Pennsylvania, and
is still brewed in Allegheny.  It may also be classed as a temperence
beverage, containing but little alcohol.  Its name is probably a
corruption of the German "Schwenke."
    The material employed is malt.  Balling of wort, about 7 percent,
hops about one-half pound per barrel, and a flavoring condiment like
anise seed.
    The malt is doughed-in at 167 deg. F (60 deg. R.), and the mash held
at 154 deg. F (53-1/2 deg. R.) until inverted.
    The hops are boiled one to two hours, the condiment about 30
minutes.
    The pitching temperature is about 61 deg. F (12 to 14 deg. R.).  The
beer is run into puncheons as soon as the Krausen begin to fall, is
allowed to spurge out, and is topped up every few hours, until the
Balling of beer is about 5, when the beer is racked into trade packages
and stored at about 61 to 63 deg. F (12 to 14 deg. R.), until it has
raised sufficient life, when the beer is cooled to about 42 to 45 deg. F
(5 to 6 deg. R.) and marketed.

*************************************************************

Having just recently moved to Pennsylvania this caught my eye! Has
anyone any info on this drink? Is it something like Malta, watered down?
Is it still brewed by anybody? Has anybody tried to homebrew it? I think
I will try to make it this spring just for fun.

Mark




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Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 11:12:58 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: oxidation at bottling

By the time this gets into the HBD, I suspect there will already be
quite a bit of discussion, but I'd like to throw in on this as well:

>From Fred Johnson:
> However, I question if introduction of a small amount of air into
homebrew is really as
> much of a problem as I've heard lately (even from George De Piro, whom
I REALLY
> hesitate to question).

With CP filling, it is, of course, quite a concern, but also minimized
by the purging of the bottles which is SOP (we're all agreed, right?).

But on bottling conditioning, the yeast has to go through the same
population building exercise that it did at time of the initial
fermentation (when we want oxygen).  We need oxygen then because it
helps the colony to build new yeast cells properly, so a little oxygen
in the bottles (a LITTLE!) should help with bottle conditioning,
wouldn't it?

Can't wait to see the responses over the next few days...

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.



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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:32:36 -0500 (EST)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: Beer Bullets.

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

The lovely Kim, ale-wife to yours truly, *HATES* the smell of brewing. So
much so that eshe gave me permission and carte blanche to purchase the
pico system which, in recent times, has languished in my brewery unused. 

Kim loves just about every kind of beer to varying degrees. The hoppier
the better, she says.  Malty beers and grain-bittered beers are amongst
her least favorites, and she has absolutely no tolerance for smoked beers
of any sort. She is my partner in our sampling of beers from around the
world. And she's a Lambic freak.She loves to bottle, and considers it
"quality time" together. (Personally, could do without the bottling, but:
hey! Why not?) 

A series of events at work has prevented my brewing for the last couple of
years (for which Phil Wilcox has been known to chide me...). Now, Kim
keeps telling me "You WILL brew this year." To top that off, SHE wants to
brew a batch or two herself (Hmmmm. Competition for the pico system might
become a problem in the future. Will she need to earn beer bullets from
her hubby? Hmmm. This could get ugly...) 

Heck! She's even joined the Fermental Order of Rennaisance Draughtsmen
homebrew club, and supported my becoming president this year! PLUS, she
complains nary a whimper when I spend hours upon hours at the PC
maintaining the Digest, its pages, my pages, and AOL's beer & brewing
section. 

So: Ha! says I! Be jealous! There is none to compare to MY brewing
partner! 

(I feel sorry for some of my brethren for whom beer bullets are not
enough. Hell! One guy I know has to earn beer bazooka-shells just to DRINK
some...)

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 16:30:23 GMT
From: marnold at ez-net.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Re: beer bullets

On Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:26:46 -0500, you wrote:

>I can't beleive that everyones spouse hates the smell and all. I know that
>the time involved in brewing bugs my family from time to time so I started
>brewing bigger batch sizes so I would be brewing less often. 
>
>Are there any other brewers out there that are getting positive responses
>from their spouses. I wonder sometimes, so I just have to ask. 

My wife is quite supportive of my brewing habit. One boilover I had on the
stove was a near-death experience, but other than that I haven't had any
problems. Since I went all-grain, I bought a cajun cooker (aka my portable
flame-thrower) and boil in the garage so that problem has been eliminated.

The funny thing is, she is more mechanically inclined than I am. She built the
arbor on which I'm growing EKGs (I guess they're now Oconto Falls Goldings
[OFG] but that doesn't have the same ring to it). She's also planning to build
a stand for my newly acquired MaltMill out of some spare 2x4s we've got lying
around.

Most of my fellow homebrew club members are amazed to find out that the beer I
"have" to brew for my wife is not a Raspberry Wheat (ack!) but a stout or some
similar thick, dark beer. Our only beer conflict is that I'm a hop-head and she
prefers the malty styles. Fortunately, I like a good Dunkel or Doppelbock as
much as the next guy so everything is swell. As a matter of fact, she requested
that some sort of thick, dark beer be ready for consumption after she gives
birth to our second assistant brewer on or about May 1. I think I can handle
that . . .

> -Scott "Always brew in Plaid" Abene

 . . . she _might_ divorce me if she found me around the brew kettle in a kilt.
OK, she wouldn't divorce me, but she might shoot me.

Later,
  Matt
- -----
Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club
http://www.rackers.org        info at rackers.org


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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:32:17 -0500 
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: on rolling the proverbial dice . . .

All -

In HBD # 2942, Vernon Land wrote:

>>>I have violated many "sanitation rules" in my short career as a home
brewer and still haven't managed to get an infection.<<<

Hmmm.

Vern, you gonna get it eventually.  If the masses will remember, I was the
poster who advocated repitching umpteen times, because I'd never gotten
bitten by it.  Faithful readers will remember that I just did.  My "what's
that taste" post in a recent HBD was triggered by an acidic taste whose
source I couldn't identify.  I finally narrowed it down to a yeast problem.
The repitched yeast cake had picked up a stray bug, and it had managed to
work its way into the colony, spoiling about 4 batches of beer in the
process.  I had to dump over 6 cases of IPA and APA gushers.  The horror,
the horror . . .

I'm not advocating extreme anal-retentive surgical glove industrial
autoclave pseudo-sterility, but just a little careful attention to
sanitation can dramatically reduce your chances of disaster.  Dumping your
own beer is not among life's little pleasures.  Trust me.

Personal aside . . . Ray Kruse -- I don't wanna hear about Murphy, pal . . .
;-)

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: 04 Feb 1999 09:30:51 -0700
From: Jeffry D Luck <Jeffry.D.Luck at aexp.com>
Subject: Re. Oxygen in the beer at end of fermentation

Pete Calinski raised some interesting questions about 
O2 getting into the beer, mostly related to the property 
of gasses that causes them to try for equilibrium even
across a barrier.  (I'm sure there's a fancy scientific name
for that but I don't know it off hand.)

I think the factor that wasn't considered is time.  (QD Alert 
here...)  The O2 and CO2 will balance eventually, but I think 
the time scale is more like a couple years.  This is certainly
a concern for us winemakers - I've had my dandelion wine
under a fermentation lock now for 16 months.

Another factor is that CO2 is heavier than O2, and so in
a closed system with both gasses, the O2 will tend to 
rise to the top.  This keeps it, for the most part, off of the
wort.  Add to that the fact that in happy yeast are putting
out lots of CO2.  Any O2 that comes into the fermentor
would tend to rise to the highest level, i.e. the top of the
fermentation lock, and with the CO2 pushing up from the
bottom, the O2 would come out of the lock first.

There's also a slush factor to consider.  In even the 
most careful environment, a few gazillion O2 molecules
are going to come in contact with the wort anyway.  Some
oxidation of the beer always occurs, but we're trying to 
keep this to a minimum.

Well, that's my $0.02.  

- --------------

Ok, I tried to refrain, but it's getting ridiculous.  Cold water
freezes faster.  That's all there is to it.  Forget the web sites
and the scientific mumbo-jumbo and TRY IT YOURSELF!
Take two paper cups, label one hot and another cold, 
fill them with hot and cold tap water and stuff them in the 
freezer.  Then check 'em every 15 minutes.  If that doesn't
convince you, I have some lakeside property in southern
Florida that you may be interested in... great prices....

Sheeesh, some people will believe anything!   

Jeff Luck
Salt Lake City, UT - USA




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Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 11:02:13 -0600
From: Tidmarsh Major <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: Re: Brewing spouses

Scott notes his ever-supportive wife and wonders why all the spouses
he ever hears about don't like brewing.

My wife, too, is wonderfully supportative and even participates from
time to time. In fact, starting to homebrew was her idea after tasting
a friend's strawberry ale.  She doesn't have a great deal of patience
for the long full-mash brewday, but she enjoys making extract
batches.  We split batches between mash and extract, and everyone's
happy.  We even have half the shelves in our kitchen 'fridge removed
to make room for a Corny keg.

Tidmarsh 'considering brewing in plaid but still a bit cautious about
the implications' Major
Birmingham, Alabama

PS--Claire really _likes_ the smells of malt and hops.


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Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 11:47:08 -0600
From: Eric Dreher <ericd at reliantdata.com>
Subject: maximum alcohol, St. Pats and soldering stainless

I read somewhere that a fermented drink can only produce a maximum of
13-15% alcohol  (without the futher distillation or such).  I don't know
for fact that this is true, but thinking of the strongest beers in the
world, they're around that level.  But I'm wondering why this could be
true.  I'm sure there is a good reason, anybody know?  A friend said
something about a port yeast being able to survive in 20% alcohol so I
was guessing that maybe yeast can only take so much of its own excrement
:) (Old saying: You can only take so much sh*t )

Secondly, I feel I'm lucky enough to live in Austin where St. Pats is
located.  Never had any troubles with them and I buy everything there
that I can't get from Home Depot.  I was thinking the other day how it
was good for me that they're here because my Wyeast packets are always
damn fresh, usually stamped with a date less than a week old.  The other
day I smacked two Bohemian Lager packs and they were both bursting at
the seams after 3-4 hours.  I've read/heard about letting them get 1
inch thick...I've always let then get so that they're almost
cylindrical.  Pitch into some sterile wort and its bubbling furiously
come an hour later.  Happy young yeast.

Lastly, I've been building my 3-tier setup lately...got a keg, cut off
the top and had been struggling with the idea of having a local shop
weld my drain or use some bulkhead fittings.  I found Eric Schoville's
page
( http://home1.gte.net/rschovil/beer/3tier.html ) in which he has Scott
Dornseif's tips on soldering stainless.  So I thought I'd give it a try
(although I seem to have difficulties just soldering copper).  Well last
night I cut my drain hole and made a perfect tight fit of the copper
nipple.  Cleaned the seam up nicely and gave it a shot.  Got the
soldering done in a few minutes and it worked like a charm.  So now in
my experience, soldering stainless to copper has been easier than copper
to copper.  So thanks, to these two for this suggestion and tips, as
well as everybody who offers their ideas and tips out there.

Fins Up!
Eric Dreher
Austin, TX




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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:23:58 -0800
From: asmith at apollo.org (Andrew Smith)
Subject: Re:Sierra Nevada Pale Ale


Larry O'mahoney ask: "Anyone notice any recent changes in Sierra Nevada Pale
Ale? On the plus side it seems to have a little more hoppiness and mouthfeel
than in years past. But now it give me a wicked headache. That never happened
before!"

A friend of mine works for Sierra Nevada Brewing Co. I asked him about the
above and in the course of a half-minute conversation, he said that they
hadn't changed the hopping rate, but that they're always trying to improve
the mouthfeel. As for the hangover, he said, "Well, higher alcohols..." but
didn't have anything specific to say about that. Personally I'm rather
tired of SNPA, but I visited their brewery a couple of weeks ago and loved
the harvest ale and the rauchbeer that they have available in the taproom,
among other brews. Apparently, they may be planning to open a new small
brewery as an addition to their present setup, where they will brew
special, experimental beers.

Last week I posted a question, to which I received no response, so I have
to assume that it wasn't clear, though Jim Busch partly answered it. It's a
general question about brewery yeast, really. The traditional breweries all
have their own unique yeasts, which presumably developed initially from
wild yeast (I'm talking centuries ago, now) and I'm guessing that they
selected yeast from the good batches to repitch. Then Mr. Pasteur came
along and told them how to make better selections of yeast, leaving the
unwanted bacteria behind, and they continued their yeast strains by
repitching and reculturing.

Now, homebrewers, brewpubs and microbreweries use these strains which are
commercially available for their own brews. My question is: do many
microbreweries select develop these yeasts so that they end up with what is
their own proprietary yeast? How do they do it? Have any homebrewers done
this? I would guess that it's a very skilled area, but there's quite an
appeal in a yeast that you've adapted yourself to give good results in your
own brewing equipment and with the types of beers that you brew.

Any comments on this?




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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:37:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Jonathan Nail <jnail at boom.dvdexpress.com>
Subject: AFCHC

Anyone know when the next America's Finest City Homebrew Competition is to
happen in San Diego? I thought it was in Fe"brew"ary, but I haven't seen
or heard anything regarding the competition. Thanks!

**Jonathan**

Homebrew and Linux, creativity and freedom all in one package!



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Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 10:39:42 PST
From: "John Elsworth" <elsworth at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Pubs In London

Just a follow-up to a response to a request for worthwhile pubs to visit 
in London.  When I lived there, my favorite drinking area was West 
London (eg. Hammersmith to Richmond), although it is not so convenient 
as the city for most tourists (on the way to Kew Gardens though). If I 
had to recommend one, "The Dove", which is right on the banks of the 
Thames on the Hammersmith/Chiswick border, would be high on my list.  It 
serves Fullers, and the brewery is a stone's throw away.  I spent many 
an evening there - and some lunchtimes (Brian, Gavin, Bob, Leighton, Sue 
 - anyone out there!).  

John Elsworth
Hamden, CT

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:44:11 -0800 (PST)
From: "Dana H. Edgell" <edgell at cari.net>
Subject: Re: Momily


js asserts that it is a momily that warm water freezes faster than cold
Scott Kaczoroowski asserts it is not and cites a web page with scientific
references

I will have to disagree with Scott and back the claim that it is a momily
based on the following points...

1) The website itself noted that the effect was probably only good when the
bucket (or icecube tray) was an insulator and evaporation dominates. Many
icecube trays are metal and obviously conduction of heat would be more
important in these cases. Thus the momily would be false at least sometimes.

2) The website is for 95C water whereas jack was talking about *warm* water
(probably at the temperature that comes out of the "hot" water tap of a
kitchen. The mass and thermal losses due to the effects of evaporation will
be much less here.

3) The website was discussing buckets of water not ice cubes. As the
surface to volume ratio of a bucket is much smaller than an ice cube tray,
this too improperly downplays the importance of conduction in freezing *ice
cubes*.

4) I had never heard this momily until a couple of years ago from my wife.
I immediately tried a simple experiment in our freezer using hot and cold
tap water and small plastic containers. The cold water froze first. Just my
personal data point.

5) even the website points out these problems with the momily.
>Thus experiment and theory agree that hot water freezes faster than cold
>for sufficiently high starting >temperatures, if the
>cooling is by evaporation. Cooling in a wooden pail or barrel is mostly by
>evaporation. In fact, a >wooden bucket of water
>starting at 100C would finish freezing in 90% of the time taken by an
>equal volume starting at room >temperature. The folklore
>on this matter may well have started a century or more ago when wooden
>pails were usual. >Considerable heat is transferred
>through the sides of metal pails, and evaporation no longer dominates the
>cooling, so the belief is >unlikely to have started from
>correct observations after metal pails became common.

So while the statement "ice cubes freeze faster if you use warm water"
might prove correct for near-boiling water in a very large plastic tray, I
don't think it is generally true and so must be considered a momily.

Beside, if you want small ice cubes, just use less cold water! Does anyone
believe that, for the same *finishing* volume, warm water will freeze
faster than cold? :-)

Dana Edgell

- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Dana Edgell
Staff Scientist			edgell at far-tech.com
FARTECH, Inc.			(619) 455-6655
5820 Miramar Rd., Suite 211		(619) 450-9741 fax
San Diego, CA  92121




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Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 13:51:45 -0500
From: Drewmeister <drewmstr at erols.com>
Subject: Force Carbonation

Not to beat this thread to death, but I have had a huge foaming problem of
late and want to know what mosat people are doing to force carbonate.  I
kegged this beer in a 3 gal corny, cranked the pressure up to 40 lbs,
rocked it till it quited (sounds like a baby huh??), then put it in the
fridge.  I took it out cold the next day and rocked it some more until it
stopped then put it back.  I left the pressure on it for 2 days, the
relieved it, dropped the gas pressure to around 15, and served.  FOAM,
FOAM, and nothing but FOAM.  The foam eventually turns into beer.  But the
beer is nearly flat.  IS this due to the highly carbonated beer losing it's
CO2 in solution as it drops in pressure going through the gas line (which
is rather long).  Should I just decrease the length of my gas line, or does
something else in the process sound funny???

Foaming in Frederick....


Drewmeister
drewmstr at erols.com
http://www.erols.com/drewmstr/flyfish.html


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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:26:15 -0800 
From: Dave Sapsis <DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov>
Subject: foam formation and stand

Bill Macher ponders whether  bubbling N2 through an airstone would give
Guinness like foam.  It is important to recognize that two separate
issues are working: foam formation, and foam stand (i.e., persistence).
Foam stand is predicated on the initiion of bubbles.  In some cases,
simply pouring a highly carbonated beer will create lots of foam by gas
breakout from the dissolved CO2.  A great example is Duvel.  Duvel aslop
has excellent foam stand.  Foam stand is enhanced by a number of factors
(commonly called foam positive agents), where hop resins and certain
medium sized proteins are often considered paramount.  Other compounds
contribute both positively and negatively.  

A main point in generation of the really chiffon like foam of Guinness
is how it is formed.  This leads me to Bill's post.  While bubbleing the
N2 gas into his cup might prroduce lots of foam,  it is not similar to
the widget in the can, or the draft through a Guinness tap.  The widget
is full of beer, not gas, but it is under high N2 pressure.  Upon
opening, it squirts out through the pinhole opeing in the widget.
Similar shear forces and resultant gas breakout (hence bubbles) occur as
draft is forced through the sparkler disk in  Guinness tap.  Note: Jeff
Renner's ingenious little pocket beer engine -- it likewise forces the
beer out through a small hole, creating prodigious foam.  N2 is
desireable to drive the pressure side, because it avoids
overcarbonation.  Once the foam is formed, you  are at the mercy of the
beers component foam postive and negative factors.  No doubt the high
beta glucan and protein content of the flaked barley used in Guinness
mashes helps here.

It is also interpesting to note that quantification of foam stand
reveals its elusive nature: the ASBC method basically requires standard
shaking in a standard vessel, then pouring into a second standard
vessel, and measuring the time to foam dissapation.  Thus, those
interested in that elusive great foam should look at the processes in
the tun and kettle affecting foam stand properties, and on dispense
issues related to foam formation.  Don't forget, clean glass is
important as well.  Those that suffer from too much foam are encouraged
to get bigger glasses and remain patient ;->

cheers,
- --dave


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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:50:13 -0500 
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: B3 Kettles

All -

Patrick Finerty asked about opinions of Beer Beer & More Beer's kettles.

Since Santa didn't bring me a shiny new brewpot for Xmas, I'm off on my own
search.  I spoke with a B3 rep, and they said that the kettles are Italian
and have an Easymasher-esque (my language) ball valve / spigot assembly
welded to the pot wall.  There are no inside threads, and the valve is not
removable, so you're pretty much stuck with what you get.  

They can customize, but that somewhat defeats the purpose of the good price,
now don't it ??

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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---