---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Sake book review (Jeff Renner)
  CO2 Regulator question (Nathan Kanous)
  Beer Bullets, MCAB, Ice, Kegging ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Heat Transfer Problem ("Nix, Andrew")
  Re:First Lager; Beer bullets (Jim DiPalma)
  Guinness flavour (Eric Reimer)
  92% attenuation ("Tim Burkhart")
  Conical Fermenter ("Tim Burkhart")
  Availability of 8 oz. bottles (David)" <drussel3 at ford.com>
  Primetabs Math/Autolysing/timers ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Watch (BrewInfo)
  Mail Order Homebrew Store Satisfaction Survey (Steve Potter)
  Extract efficiency brewing high gravity beers (Dave Humes)
  Precipitating Bicarbonates (Gordon Strong)
  Kegging info (Rob.Green1)
  priming/Guinness/mead/Ahh... Belgium! (BrewInfo)
  Re: Off flavors-Bottling/kegging ("Michael Maag")
  Stir plates that are too hot ("George De Piro")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:10:14 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Sake book review

Thanks to Mutsuo Hoshido <hoshido at gman.rme.sony.co.jp> for his interesting
report on something that I know very little of, sake brewing.  I just found
a remaindered book, _The Insider's Guide to Sake_ by Philip Harper,
Kodansha, International, Tokyo: 1998, ISBN 4-7700-2076-7 ($5.98, orig.
$14.95).  Harper is an Englishman who has lived in Japan since 1988 and is
a professional sake brewer, the only non-Japanese one he knows of.  This
book is a 244 page pocket guide.

The first 69 pages are a fairly detailed overview of history, categories,
brewing, drinking and buying of sake, and looks pretty detailed and
interesting, and is probably the most useful part of the book.  There is
then an annotated sampling of 109 sakes of the thousands available (there
are ~1700 sake breweries in Japan, in 1926 there were nearly 10,000).  The
brewery Matsuo visited is not reviewed.  This may or may not prove to be
useful to us in the US.  Then a list of bars and restaurants, brewers'
shops, retailers in Japan; restaurants and bars in the US, ditto for Europe
and Asia, a review of US and worldwide sake brewers, exporters and
distributors, sake on the web, and an "extended directory" of retailers,
bars and Japanese restaurants in the US (which seems very west coast and
NYC biased - no listings for Michigan, for example.)  All in all, it looks
to be easily worth $5.98.  I've had limited success finding sake that is
not old here in AA (several brands are open dated and are outdated), but
I'm learning some of what to look forward to.  There's lots more to sake
than the bottle with the orange label!

Harper says that the big danger to traditional, quality sake is the hard
labor involved and lack of appeal of brewing to young people.  The average
age of sake brewers is 60, and in a decade or two there will be a crisis.
He describes the incredibly hard, long days during the season.  Once he
fell asleep on his bicycle riding to work and pedaled into a river!

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:54:22 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: CO2 Regulator question

Hi all,
I was recently purging the airspace from a keg of stout.  I racked into the
keg, and applied pressure (5psi) and purged...pressurized...purged,
repeatedly.  Now, I'm not asking about the pressure on the beer...the low
pressure is what works for me...if you want to see if it works, come over
for a beer...otherwise, that's not the issue.

I have an in-line valve immediately following the regulator, and then a
manifold before the kegs (3).  During my procedure, the valve immediately
after the regulator was always open.  The valves to 2 kegs were closed and
the valve to the keg I was purging was opened and closed as needed.  My
procedure was to have the manifold valve open, pressurize the keg, close
the manifold valve, and vent the keg to purge the airspace.  Repeat ad
nauseum until I felt comfortable that I'd wasted enough CO2.  What I
discovered was this.  After I had pressurized the keg, I'd close the
manifold and vent the keg.  When I did this, I heard a hissing sound.  I
traced that sound to the regulator.  It seemed that every time I closed the
manifold and vented the keg, I would get CO2 coming out of a hole in the
regulator.  The hole is next to the screw that is used to adjust the
pressure.  I assume that this hole functions as a "relief valve" on the
regulator.  Well, if I covered the hole when the gas began to escape, the
gauge on the regulator would begin to rise and would continue to rise until
I allowed the pressure to vent out of the regulator.  What is going on?  Is
my regulator in need of replacement?

I apologize for the long post, but wanted to try to describe the event in
as much detail as possible.  TIA.
nathan in madison, wi




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Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:21:18 -0500
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Beer Bullets, MCAB, Ice, Kegging




From: Philip J Wilcox at CMS on 02/09/99 11:21 AM

A great way to earn beer bullets is to make money with your hobby. Since
uncle sam will lock us up for selling our wares, we simply have to do what
we do best. Think differently and deal with what we have. Georges--Fix and
DePiro, Louis Bonham, Scott Bickingham... all do it with writeing about
beer. I have discovered another way. Check out
http://www.4th-vine.com/index.html and use the contest link.
- ------
Here is a Tip for all the MCAB goers this weekend.  Put the HBD initials on
your nametag so when we see eachother we'll know to say hi and give the
secret handshake.
- -----
Do the rules for inertia have something something to do with the Hot/Cold
Icecube momily? I mean if hot water molecules are bouncing around faster,
evaporing faster and cooling faster, would they build up enough steam
(sorry could'nt resist) so as to actually cool down faster to freezing than
water that started cool to begin with? I'm sure there a physic's lesson on
Entropy and Enthalpy in there somewhere... Any Help??
- -----
Bill gave us some great background on his very good bottling proceedures,
however I'd like to have a better disription of the "off flavor" itself
before commenting... Is it cardboardy? medicinal, plasticlike, solventy,
sulfurlike, vegetablelike, buttery, yeast bite???
Kegging questions:
1. The yeast does settle and usually the first pint or so come out real
cloudy but after that it clears up nicely and stays that way so long as you
don't disturb the keg.

2. For dry hopping I put a hop bag and a few marbles in a half cup of water
and nuke it in the microwave for 12 min. this brings the water and the bag
up to boiling for 10 min and sanitizes the bag.  After it cools I add my
pre measured hops and tie off with dental floss. I leave a long leader of
floss hang out of the keg and seal it back up. this way I can use the floss
to retrieve the hop bag after a few weeks without reaching my hand or other
implement into the keg.

3. Cleaning: lots of ways, some use bleach for short amounts of time
(longer soaks will pit the stainless). Some use TSP, others us PBW to clean
and Idophor or Star-San to sanitize. I think most of us use water and elbow
grease for cleaning. If your arm doesnt make it to the bottom of the keg,
find one that does, A buck usually gets me a neighborhood kid to do 3 or 4
when I have them out on the lawn.... I didn't use to clean the dip tube
each time, but now I do, I cut up a braided nylon scrubbie and tied some 3
feet dental floss to it and  tied  the other end to a ball point pen
refill. I gravity feed the pen refill down the tube (after removing it) and
then pull the scrubbie part through several times to clean it out. You'll
be suprised how much yeast and gunk build up in there. I prefer to sanitize
kegs with Star-san. No matter what the concentration is you just cant taste
it in your beer. they often quote a conference where they disolved a
tablespoon of Star-san into a beer and had brewers taste it to see if they
tell. I was the audience schmuck who volunteered for that--its true. We
used Bass, Guinness and Vienna lager...you could see the difference, but
you couldnt taste it. And its re-useable for a short time. I will fill and
sanitize everything I Have with one batch. I'll fill the keg up, seal it.
wait 2-5 min then push the stuff out with co2 (thus purging the tank of
air) while filling the next keg or carboy.

4. Fresh taste: Depends on storage temp, beer type (ie alcohol level),
yeast type, and general sanitation practices. Some beers, like the SNPA
clone we love, can last 4 months or more, Barleywines? Mine has been in a
keg since July, and I'm still salavating as I type about it. Wheat beers
are more finicky in my experience. When there new, they are awesome, but
for some reason they only last about 6 weeks before they start going down
hill. Not leaving your taps on and sanitizing between uses will help
increase your freshness time.

5. tips: Pour off your first beer from the keg into a glass pitcher. you'll
notice when it pours clear easier. DONT drink right from the pitcher. First
pints are usually very foamy have a lot of excess CO2. If you drink right
from the pitcher the tendency is to take a breath right before you swallow
the first sip, the CO2 being heavier than air doesnt disperse and you are
really just pouring it right up your nose, with out any oxygen your body
reacts violently againts this usually by snorting and spitting the beer you
just drank out at very high velocities and not uncommonly through you nose
also. This is not comfortable and really adds injury to insult. Once
again--trust me...

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewer
Warden-Prison City Brewers
AABG, AHA, BJCP, HBD, MCAB, ETC., ad nausium...




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Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:14:48 -0500
From: "Nix, Andrew" <anix at bechtel.com>
Subject: Heat Transfer Problem

Rod,

Your not an idiot, your just not a heat transfer person.  The heat
transferred to the fluid has nothing to do with the thermal conductivity of
the fluid, but rather the specific heat.  Q (heat transferred to fluid
inside tube)=flow rate x specific heat (Cp) of fluid x (Tfinal-Tinitial)

ALSO Q(heat transferred to the fluid) =h1 x A (inside surface of tube) x
LMTD  where the LMTD is the log mean temperature difference which is an
approximation which takes into account that the delta T between the fluid
inside and the tank outside changes as you move down the length of the tube
since the moving fluid is being heated.  Where h1 is the convective heat
transfer coefficient inside the tube and is dependent on whether flow is
laminar or turbulent.

Q(heat transferred through copper) = Q (to fluid) = [2 x PI x Length of tube
x Thermal conductivity (k) of copper x (T outside wall of tube - Tinside
wall of tube)] / [ln(outside radius/inside radius)]

And lastly, since the heat transferred into the fluid = heat transferred
through the tube walls = heat transferred from tank water to tube (since we
assumed no losses), Q outside convection = h2 (convective heat transfer
coefficient) x A (outside area of tube) x (Ttank water - T outside wall of
tube)

The two unknowns here are the end temperature of the fluid moving through
the tube, but more importantly, the convective heat transfer coefficient on
the outside of the tube.  This is a TRICKY number to determine.  Especially,
since there is some force convective effects from different parts of the
coil effecting each other and convective flow fields around the outside, you
could neglect these effects and use the straight conduction from the tank
water to the copper tube.

To do the numbers: Thermal conductivity of metals is temperature dependant,
but at around 180F, the k of copper is approx 400 Watts/meter/Degree Kelvin

cp for water at 180F is 4.2 kJ/kG/Degree Kelvin (the specific gravity of the
wort will effect specific heat).

At this point, I will stop.  As you can see, this is NOT an easily explained
equation.  As a heat transfer engineer, I know several valid assumptions to
make, but they would be too difficult to explain.  This type of thing is
best done empirically with water, then corrections can be made for varying
specific heat of the wort.  Look at any fluid heat transfer text, or even a
good thermodynamics book.  The equations you've listed are over simplified.

SORRY for being so long winded...


Andrew C. Nix





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Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:58:12 -0500 
From: Jim DiPalma <dipalma at omtool.com>
Subject: Re:First Lager; Beer bullets

Hi All,

In HBD#2949, <stjones1 at worldnet.att.net> writes:

>Two weeks ago I brewed my first lager, a 1.080 Doppelbock. Not only
>that, but it was also my first decoction mash (single). What an
>experience!! 
>
>11 lbs  light munich malt
>11 lbs  dark german munich malt
>1 lb      dwc caramunich
>1/2 lb   biscuit malt
>2 oz     chocolate malt

Grain bill is good, mostly Munich, some crystal, and just a small pinch
of chocolate malt to contribute color without contributing roasted malt
flavor as well. Just right for the style.

>Mashed 35 minutes at 133F; pulled thickest 2.5 gal of mash  at 20 min,
>heat to boil (5 min), boiled 10 min, added back to main mash at the 35
>minute mark. Hit 154F. Conversion took 2 more hours (??? - low enzyme
>content of munich??).

Munich malt has plenty of diastatic enzyme. I routinely brew dopplebock
with Munich malt as >85% of the grain bill, no conversion problems. I
know brewers who have brewed dunkel from 100% Munich malt, no conversion
problems. I think the reason it took 2 hours for your mash to convert is
that you seemed to have skipped a saccarification(sp?) rest. The mash-in
temperature was fine, but after pulling the decoction, heat to
155F-158F, and hold for 30-40 minutes until the decocted mash is
converted. By going directly to boiling, you denatured the amylase
enzyme before it could convert the decoction. That means the entire mash
had to be converted by the enzymes remaining in the rest mash. IMHO,
that's why it took 2 hours to convert. Also, when the decoction was
added back the mash hit 154F, beta-amylase will denature fairly quickly
at that temperature - this is possibly the reason why your ferment is
having trouble getting below 1.040.

My other comment is more of a question: how did you go from 133F to
boiling in 5 minutes?!?! That must be some kind of speed record for
heating a decoction. It's important to heat a decoction gently, to avoid
scorching the mash.

>I pitched a 3 step starter, going from smack pack to 1/2 gallon and
>decanting the spent wort after the second step. It's been in the
>primary at 50F for 13 days now, and I'm still getting a bubble out of
>the airlock every 10 seconds, and there is still about 1/2 inch of
>krausen on the top. The specific gravity is 1.040.  I had expected to
>be able to do the diacetyl rest and rack to secondary for lagering by
>now, but I'm not sure if it is ready. Should I try to rouse the yeast?
>Should I make another starter and pitch it? Or is everything normal
>and lager yeast normally takes this long to work. Can anyone enlighten
>me on this?

Stepping up the starter was right, a high-gravity lager pitched cold
needs all the yeast you can give it. No info given on aeration, so I
can't comment on that. 13 days is *normally* plenty of time for the
primary ferment to complete, but I'm wondering how much damage was done
to the enzyme systems by skipping the sacc. rest for the decoction, and
what effect that may have had on the attenuation level of your wort.

Anyway, I would start with the least radical remedial treatment first:
rouse the yeast, wait a couple of days, take another gravity reading. If
no change, pitch some more yeast, wait a couple of days, take another
gravity reading. If the problem is underpitching or under-aeration, that
should take care of it. If it doesn't, you may have to resort to adding
some amylase enzyme to the fermenter. I've never done that, so I can't
offer any advice. Perhaps someone who has can jump in here.

Good luck, and please post and let us know how things turned out.

Cheers,
Jim





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Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:10:40 -0500
From: Eric Reimer <eric at etymonic.com>
Subject: Guinness flavour 

Hi all,

I have a question regarding the flavour of Guinness stout.  A friend at 
work who has recently been in Ireland, says the flavour of Guinness tastes 
very different here (in Ontario) compared to what he had in Ireland.  At 
home, he has tried both from the can (with the nifty dispensing widget) and 
from kegs.  He reports that what he had in Ireland did not have the "sour 
tang" which we are used to in North America.  Is this so?  Is the 
pronounced tang from age or shipping?  Is a different recipe used in Irish 
pubs compared to what we receive in North America?

I can't say that he had the same style in Ireland.  He has only said that 
when he went into a pub (in Ireland), he would ask for a "Guinness".  I 
assume this is the standard stout, and not an extra stout or some other 
variation.  The "tang'ed" N.A variety was the standard stout.

Can someone shed some light on the flavour differences?

Eric
Barking Dogs Brewery
London, Ontario



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Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 14:14:28 -0500
From: "Tim Burkhart" <tburkhart at dridesign.com>
Subject: 92% attenuation

I posted a coulple of weeks ago about excessive attenuation with a batch of
Wyeast Irish ale yeast.

I did a 1qt forced ferment with 3 tbls of stored yeast slurry and an OG of
1055... FG was 1004.
Using Ray Daniels apparent attenuation calculation I got 92% AA.

Is there a particular type of bactierial infection that could have caused
this? Mashing/handling proceedures?

My uneducated guess is sanitation. This yeast was collected from the primary
and stored for 2 weeks under a couple inches of beer. TIA.

Tim Burkhart
Kansas City


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Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 14:26:31 -0500
From: "Tim Burkhart" <tburkhart at dridesign.com>
Subject: Conical Fermenter

I have been using a 7 gallon plastic conical fermenter for a couple of
batches now and would like to ask a couple of questions to the collective.

#1>Pulling trub + yeast: I am drawing the trub from under the fermenting
wort after 8 hours or so.

Is there an ideal time to draw yeast off for storage and repitching?
Do I need to be concerned about getting only the low, med, or high
flocculating yeasties?
Should I pull off yeast for a coulple of days for repitching and then throw
the rest away?

#2>Autolysis: Since this topic has been brought up recently... I'm hoping to
draw enough yeast off that the primary can be the secondary. This way I can
siphon directly to the bottling bucket or perhaps try individual bottle
priming.

Has anyone used this method... is there a better way?

Tim Burkhart
Kansas City


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Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 15:30:46 -0500
From: "Russell, D. A. (David)" <drussel3 at ford.com>
Subject: Availability of 8 oz. bottles

I have looked through about 9 catalogs and called my local HB supplier
but can't find anyone who sells 8 oz. bottles.  Does anyone know of a
homebrew shop that carries them?  I am looking for a quantity of 1-2
cases.  

I am aware of the alternative of the 8 oz. Coke bottles, but I want
clean bottles (amber, green or clear) that I can put a special label on
and give away to people.

I have seen other request thsi here over the previous year.  I know of
others who want this size bottle.  My homebrew shop said he was looking
for them, and he would stock them if he could find them.  Is there any
glass bottle suppliers out there that can let us know if this is such a
special request?


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:53:54 -0500
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Primetabs Math/Autolysing/timers




From: Philip J Wilcox at CMS on 02/09/99 03:53 PM

All,

I believe that an individual prime tab is 250 mg of of pure sugar.  My
question is how does this relate to Specific gravity? Say for instance i
have a mead that I have sulfited and sorbated and I wanted to sweeten from
1.008 to 1.018. How many prime tabs would that be? Another way of looking
at this is how many SG point do you have to raise a beer for proper
Priming? If any of you mathamagicians can enlighten me I'd appreciate the
help.
- ------
George and Steve's autolysing conversation: are either/both of you going to
the MCAB? I brewed a doppelbock, a really big Doppel 1.086? (Destined to
become Eis), just after the 1st of the year.  It is fermenting at a friends
fridge not far from my house, but its innconvient enough that I did'nt rack
it till after it was going on 4 weeks. I pitched the full slurry from 5 gal
of Helles (Racked that momement) onto 10 gal of Doppel. and oxygenated the
heck out of my twin 6.5 gal fermentors. This is Ayinger yeast (reportedly)
from a local Micro. that won a bronze GABF medal with it. I set the fridge
for 51F and let it rip. While racking i took my usual hydrometer reading
and discovered it was only 1.030 not the 1.020 I was shooting for. So I
didn't rack the second fermentor and i raised the temp to 56F. Shook the
begebbers out of both and returned 2 weeks later to see that they didnt
move much, 1.028 on both. I kept my hydrometer samples to A) force
carbonate for tonights club meeting and B) Force Fermentation test. I have
gobbs of Nottingham so I'll most likely use that. How many grams (Dry) for
150 ml test? (Sorry Dave, the pharmacy that I coincedentally  went to this
morning didn't have a Cl***t)  I will gladly bring bottled samples of both
to Houston if you guys want to do a face-to-face taste off of 3.5 and 6
week primary autolyzing yeast samples.
- -----
Electronic timers:
My stirplate is a 1970's photolab model and it put out too much heat to use
on an overnight basis. I was thinking of getting a timer to turn on and off
the electricity thus keeping it from getting to hot. ( I have cooked some
yeast on it before) All of the Security light timers in the stores only
have one or two settings that really won't due for what I want here which
is like 5 min on and 25 off or something like that. Any ideas out there on
what I'm really looking for and where to get it? and it should go without
saying, how much is it going to cost me?????

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewer
Warden-Prison City Brewers
AABG, AHA, BJCP, HBD, MCAB, ETC., ad nausium...




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Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:07:11 -0600 (CST)
From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com>
Subject: Watch

Sorry about this being so late...

Clint asks what should he get to replace his ailing Mickey Mouse watch.

I recommend a Timex Atlantis 100.  Not only does it have an alarm,
stopwatch AND a countdown timer (alarm for the boil, countdown timer for
the flavour hop addition), but it will do two timezones (mine is set to
Chicago and London), has an Indiglo face (great for those late outdoor
brewing sessions) and is wort resistant to 100 metres.  I liked mine so
much, I bought two more.  I believe I saw them at Osco for $20 or 25.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at brewinfo.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 15:22:50 -0600
From: Steve Potter <spotter at meriter.com>
Subject: Mail Order Homebrew Store Satisfaction Survey

Hello Collective,
Just a quick progress note on the survey:

As you may recall, in last Saturday's HBD I requested that
members of the collective complete a survey on their satisfaction with
mail order  homebrew suppliers.  I asked for a 1 to 10 rating (with 10
high) on your satisfaction with:
Price
Quality
Selection
Knowledgeable sales people

I  further asked for information on any specialty that the mail
order house has.

I asked that replies be sent to:
first_draft at altavista.net

So far, I have received 16 replies.  One of the respondents was
obviously drunker than I was when I put the original post together.  One 
rated his local non-mail order store.  Of the remainder, 5 of the 
replies were for a variety of lesser known operations.  Eight were for a 
particular store that had solicited its customers to reply. Only one 
reply was for a nationally known mail order supplier.

Among those that I received no input on as of yet are:
St. Pats
Hoptech
The Brewery
Brewers Resource

What prompted me to start the survey was dissatisfaction with
St. Pats bashing thread.  I thought that perhaps we could put a positive
spin on the discussion by trying to determine where to shop, rather than
where not to.  I also wanted to see if St Pats really had a problem or if
there were six unhappy campers blowing a lot of smoke.  I find it
interesting that those who argued so passionately for and against St.
Pats have not sent me a response.

I will collect responses until Monday of next week.  At that time I will 
post what I have.  

Steve Potter
Madison, Wisconsin


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Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 17:04:43 -0500
From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Extract efficiency brewing high gravity beers

Greetings,

I just brewed a Weizenbock this weekend that was intended to have an
original gravity of 1.068 (17P).  I have previously made only normal
gravity beers (1.048-1.052) on my equipment, so this was a new
experience.  So, it's getting near the end of the runoff.  I've
collected 13.4 gallons in my 15 gallon boiler.  And I take a sample
of the runoff and find it's gravity is 1.020.  With a normal gravity
beer, the runoff at the end is more like 1.011 on my system.  So, I
say, bummer.  There's probably going to be lots of extract left
behind and I won't achieve my target final gravity, at least not
without boiling it down more than I had planned.  But, to my
surprise, it's right on the money.  Hmmmm.  Well, this batch was 60%
wheat, and I do get somewhat higher extraction with wheat than barley
since wheat is huskless.  But that should have been accounted for by
the higher SG contribution of wheat in the original calculations. 
Anyhow, getting back to the original point, it seems that the
additional extract beyond that of a normal gravity beer will require
additional sparge water to be fully extracted.  But, then you are
likely to overflow the capacity of your boiler and require a lengthy
boil to reduce to target gravity.  Alternatively, you can accept the
fact that a linear increase in the mass of the grain will not lead to
a linear increase in extract without additional sparging  and adjust
your recipes accordingly.  Any suggestions on how to do this would be
most appreciated.  


 
Dave Humes                             >>humesdg1 at earthlink.net<<




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Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 18:02:58 -0400
From: Gordon Strong <strongg at earthlink.net>
Subject: Precipitating Bicarbonates

I've been reading up on water treatment and several sources suggest
boiling water with a lot of temporary hardness to precipitate
bicarbonates and lower pH.  They generally say boil, aerate, decant but
not much more.  I've got some questions on the technique: how long
should you let it boil?  when do you aerate: when it's hot or cool?  is
hard stirring with a spoon adequate or do I need to pump air into it? 
at what point do you decant?  do you force cool or is air cooling OK? 
what should it look like at the key points in the process?

FYI, my city water analysis says I've got 416 ppm hardness, 334 ppm
alkalinity, 19 ppm sulfate, 17 ppm chloride, 516 ppm total dissolved
solids and a pH of 7.91.  Following a Noonan formula, I determine I have
333 ppm calcium and 83 ppm magnesium.  The next batch of beer I plan to
brew is an all-grain scotch ale.  

I've read the water section in New Brewing Lager Beer, the water section
in Analysis of Brewing Techniques and the Engineering the Perfect Pint
article from BT Jul/Aug 98; all were very good references and I
recommend them as background reading.  I also know about the Brewater
program, but haven't used it yet (I figure I need to take stuff out of
the water before trying to add anything).

Any hints from those with more experience in this area would be
appreciated.

Gordon Strong
Beavercreek, Ohio
strongg at earthlink.net


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Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:12:42 -0500
From: Rob.Green1 at firstunion.com
Subject: Kegging info


While pursuing my favorite hobby via the Internet, I came across a site
that explained the science of beer dispensing.  I thought that there must
be more kegging neophytes who would benefit from this information.
I noticed in back issues of the HBD several articles about draft
dispensing and the problems of excess foaming but none seemed to
take into consideration the entire picture of beer/co2 volumes, draft line
resistance, and dispensing PSI and the importance of pressure vs.
resistance.

http://www.morebeer.com/draftquest.html

I would appreciate any feedback on the information included in the
above FAQ from any experienced keggers.  I have stumbled
on a second-hand freezer and have purchased a draft setup (at the
expense of many, many beer bullets, but that's another story) and
located 4 cornelius kegs and will be setting up my draft system as
soon as I can get a batch going.  Any information would be welcome.

Does agitating cornelius kegs during forced carbonation may cause
oxidation? I was following a thread in the archive that hinted at that, but
never saw this issue put to rest.

Question:  Is o-ring lube necessary? or did I damage my new o-rings?

Philip asked about o-ring lube and my local brew store sells 'keg lube'
in a small tub that is designed for just that purpose.  I'm sure his local
supplier can get some if they don't already sell it, but if not Alternative
Beverage's order line is (800)365-2739 and should have some by now.
They have a website but the keg lube for some reason doesn't appear
on there, http://www.e-brew.com in case you want to peruse yet another
brew store's website.

Rob Green



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Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:15:54 -0600 (CST)
From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com>
Subject: priming/Guinness/mead/Ahh... Belgium!

I'm not caught up yet with reading HBD (fell behind during the X-mas
holidays and still can't catch up), but many of these questions are
from November and as of HBD #2928 they are still unanswered.  So, please
excuse the lateness of these responses...

Brian writes:
>Question number two: Since the priming solution is likely higher in gravity
>than the fermented beer, doesn't it just sink to the bottom of the beer in
>the secondary and risk getting left behind when you rack to a bottling
>bucket (or carboy)?  Seems like it might be a risk.  But I rack every little
>bit out and don't leave much behind.  I've never yet gotten an
>undercarbonation from this cause ... leaving beer in the secondary for 6 or
>8 weeks and bottling without new yeast, yes, but not from priming this way!
 
I typically pour the priming solution into the bottling carboy and then
rack the beer in.  I've never gotten inconsistent carbonation, but if
you haven't in your experience, then I think you've answered your own
question.  As for adding yeast at bottling time, I have made many beers
which have spent months in the fermenters (one lager spent 8 months
in the secondary (I use secondaries only for fruit beers and lagers)
and then carbonated just fine without any additional yeast at bottling).

Where additional yeast at bottling time is beneficial is in very strong
beers.  It is a common practice among Belgian commercial brewers, but
then their beers are commonly well over 6%ABV and many are over 8%!

***
Mark writes:
>gravity and a bit hoppier).  i am sure that the bottled product,
>unpasteurized and fresh, would be noticeably better than the stale, abused
>stuff we end up with.  and i don't consider the maltiness of bass ale to be
>"wimpy".
> 
>the same can be stated about guinness stout.  their bottled "extra" is a
>world away from the typical stuff you get in the pubs over there.  which
>should be considered as the representative of the style?

You are mixing two different styles of stout.  Draught Guinness in Ireland
and in the US is about a 1.038 OG beer.  So is the canned Guinness we get
here.  The bottled Guinness is about 1.055 or 1.060 OG and is hopped quite
a bit more.  The AHA calls this "Foreign-style" stout.  There actually
is a *third* type of Guinness.  This is the Caribbean-brewed, bottled
Guinness (the bottled import Guinness mentioned above is brewed in Ireland).
Caribbean-brewed Guinness is even stronger and rather sweet.  It is brewed
under contract by a number of different brewers.  On Jamaica, it's brewed
by the same brewery as Red Stripe (D&G, I believe).  On Barbados, it's
brewed by Banks's.

So, I would say that canned and draught Guinness is representative of
"Dry Stout" or "Irish-style Stout" and that bottled Guinness, imported
to the US is representative of the "Foreign-style Stout."

***
Mike writes:
>I'm attempting my fist mead soon. It's a simple recipe: 15 lbs. honey, acid
>blend, yeast energizer, Irish Moss, and Wyeast Sweet Mead Yeast (#3184).
>Questions: 1. To make a yeast starter the yeast package says to add the
>yeast to diluted fruit juice. What kind of juice? How much diluted? Is it OK
>to use DME instead? 2. Should I use my Oxygenator to aerate the must once it
>is in the carboy? 3. Is mead subject to oxidation due to hot side aeration?
>4. Is it critical, as with beer, to quickly cool the must? Should I use my
>wort chiller? 4. My recipe calls for 6 months of bottle aging. Should I cap
>with oxygen absorbing caps? Thanks.

Firstly, I was instructed by the Mead Guys (Dan McConnell and Ken Schramm)
that you shouldn't add the acid blend until after fermentation and then
only if the mead needs acidity.  I've never added acid even after fermentation
to any of my meads and they have done well in competition.  Acidity
slows fermentation and in fact, Chuck Wettergreen has suggested that you
can restart a sluggish mead fermentation by adding some calcium carbonate.

On to your questions...

1. I use dried malt extract for a starter... juice doesn't have many of the
nutrients that yeast need.  Yes... use DME (I recommend 1.040 OG).

2. Yes... I did.  Worked well.

3. I don't know, but I cooled before oxygenating... can't hurt and oxygen
is much more soluble in cool wort/must than in hot (regardless of what Noonan
says).

4. I don't know, but my educated guess is no.  Honey is mostly sugars.
Wort has all kinds of other compounds that are susceptible to oxidation.

5. I use O2-absorbing caps for both beer and mead.  The alcohol in the
mead is still susceptible to oxidation to yucky (that's a technical term)
aldehydes.

***
Tim writes:
>I found a bottle of Delirium Tremens under the Christmas tree this
>year.  As I poured it, and the wonderful flowery aroma hit my nose, my
>immediate reaction was to utter "Ah, Belgium!"  Well, I just stood
>there with my nose in the glass for at least a minute before taking a
>sip.  I took it to my wife (who was working in her studio) to taste.
>She had a sniff and said, "Ah, Belgium!"
[snip]
>So my question is, "Where does that aroma come from?"

The non-technical answer is: the yeast.  Select your yeast carefully
and you will get those aromas.  Higher fermentation temperatures will
intensify it.  The technical answer is: esters and higher alcohols.

Short aside on alcohols:
Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) is the alcohol we all are familiar with in
beer, wine, mead, whiskey, vodka...  It has the chemical formula C2H6O.
"Higher alcohols" or "fusel alcohols" are ones that are "bigger"
than ethanol.  For example propyl alcohol (propanol) is C3H80 and
butyl alcohol (butanol) is C4H100 (that's 10 hydrogens, one oxygen).
Alcohols can have many carbons and get quite large.

Whereas German brewers seem to have chosen to select their yeasts and
fermentation temperatures to minimise esters and higher alcohols,
Belgians seem to have chosen to select yeasts and fermentation temps
that produce lots of esters and higher alcohols.  The more the better,
it seems...

A word of warning to those who haven't yet partaken in Belgian beers:
I believe and theorise that if you are not used to higher alcohols, you
will get a raging hangover (due to the higher alcohols) from even moderate
consumption of some of these rather strong and very aromatic beers.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at brewinfo.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:28:11 -0500
From: "Michael Maag" <maagm at rica.net>
Subject: Re: Off flavors-Bottling/kegging

Bill  Frazier, Johnson County, Kansas  says:
<snip>  I always bottle my beer.  I brew all kinds of beer and the problem
discussed below pertains mostly to non dry-hopped, light colored beers.
<snip>
With the rare exception, there always is some off-flavor, usually small and
only noticed by me. By this I mean the beer tastes a little different, after
it is conditioned, than what I remember before adding priming sugar and
filling.
Note:  I use a bottling bucket. <snip>
 -Bill kegged half of a batch and bottled the other half.  Same off-flavor in
the bottled half.
My 2 cents:
Bill, I would suspect the faucet assembly in the bottling bucket is the
source of contamination.  I had a similar problem which drove me to kegging.
To check, try using a siphon to bottlefill from a bucket with no faucet, or
dissassemble the faucet , scrub, soak in chlorox and rinse the faucet before
use.
Bill:
 -I read where some use the keg for secondary fermentation.  Does any
subsequent settled yeast plug up the works or is it better to conduct
secondary fermentation in a fresh carboy?
Me:
Rack the beer from the primary to a "secondary" (actually a clairification
vessel) to let yeast settle prior to kegging. I use gelatin at this point,
then I keg and force carbonate.
 Bill:
 -If using a keg for secondary fermentation, how do you dry-hop without
having the hops plug up the works?
Me:
If you keg, put your hops (whole or plugs, no pellets) in a nylon bag and
put them right in the keg after you fill it.  Best way to dry hop IMHO.
Bill:
 -How do most keggers clean and sanitize the kegs?
Me:
I use a caustic to soak away beerstone (Keg Clean),  then use a non-chlorox
sanitizer.  Run both solutions through the tap and hose while you are at it.
Rinse well by running the water from the final rinse of the keg through the
hose and tap.  Dissassemble the tap every few kegs for cleaning.
Bill:
 -How long will beer keep that nice fresh taste in a keg?
Me:
Most kegged beer will condition in the keg and flavors will change, even if
sugar is not added.  The only way the flavor remains stable is if I keep the
beer colder than I should (32 to 35F) and keep around 12 psi CO2 pressure on
it.  The small amount of yeast at the bottom of the keg seems to keep
munching the more complex sugars if the pressure gets low and temps get
high.  The beer gets a bit "drier", no off flavors though.
Cheers 8*)
Mike,  In the middle of the Shenandoah Valley (Staunton, Va.)



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Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 18:58:42 PST
From: "George De Piro" <gdepiro at fcc.net>
Subject: Stir plates that are too hot

Hi all,

Phill writes about his stir plate getting too hot and
causing yeasticide.  I have a similar piece of junk
stir plate.  My solution to the overheating was putting
a piece of insulation between the stir plate and the
yeast jar.  Works pretty well, although sometimes
it is tougher to get the stir bar going.

Have fun!

George de Piro  (that's my shortest post in a while!)


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