---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Oxidation and Yeast Autolysis (Nathan Kanous)
  CAP / Millenium Barley Wine / Bullets / Hop Devil (John Varady)
  Help my barleywine has terminated at 1.038 (Ed Choromanski)
  Horse beer (Jeff Renner)
  Re: High Alcohol contents (Jeff Renner)
  re: too cold lagering (Jon Macleod)
  MCAB woes ("Alan McKay")
  More Autolysis / Brettanomyces and livestock ("George De Piro")
  Re: Dispensing from kegs without a CO2 bottle ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Bottler thingies (Bill Graham)
  Dispensing from kegs without a CO2 bottle (Steven Ensley)
  Hot/Cold Break removal (BioCoat)
  My English Mild ("Michael P. Beck")
  candi sugar, horse blanket (B.R. Rolya)
  re: HLT size (Eric Dreher)
  Boston Homebrew Competition and MCAB 2000 qualification (Ken Jucks)
  Oxygen absorbing bottle caps (Eric Dreher)
  Unfortunate Pairings (Paul Ward)
  Y2K Celebration Ale ("Marc Battreall")
  RE: Dispensing from kegs without a CO2 bottle (A question) ("S. Wesley")
  Rodney Morris Circuitry Design Needed ("Mark Ellis")
  RE: Math challenge, Max Heat Transfer. ("S. Wesley")
  Re: odor in beer (Tom Lombardo)
  Re: More Autolysis / Brettanomyces and livestock ("Stephen Alexander")
  Re: Oxidation of bottled beers ("Fred L. Johnson")
  aeration solution (John Herman)
  Autolysis (Nathan Kanous)
  math challenge (Vachom)
  Beer on Yeast (John Varady)
  oxidation, autolysis ("Paul Niebergall")


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Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 08:21:48 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Oxidation and Yeast Autolysis

Another thought about oxidation...don't ignore what happens before you
bottle.  I've got 5 gallons of Kolsch that was transferred to a secondary a
little later than I had intended. The secondary was larger than I wanted.
As the beer sat in the secondary (which was too large), I couldn't get to
it quickly and it sat there...not fermenting at all...for 2 weeks.  After 3
weeks in the bottle, the beer is quite oxidized.  Not good.  Could this
have happened during bottling?  It could have, but I have had minimal
problems with oxidation in the past.  Two brews that I can think of, in
particular, oxidized when dry hopped with whole flowers, because of the
large volume of air within the flowers.  It's really made me hesitant to
dry hop anymore.

*****************************

Yeast autolysis.  George, how can I justify leaving my barleywine in a
carboy for 3 to 4 months?  Or my strong belgian ales, or anything I want to
let bulk age for a while?

On the flavor of autolysis, harvest some yeast from a primary or secondary
using the "sterile distilled water" technique on the Wyeast page (or
anywhere else).  Store the yeast for 6 months (mine was in the fridge).
Open it and pitch it into some fresh wort.  The times that I've done this
resulted in MAJOR burned rubber aroma and flavors.  If I've got to store
yeast like this for long periods, I reculture a small bit and step up to
avoid the off flavors.

Have a great day!
nathan in madison, wi




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Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:26:23 -0500 (EST)
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: CAP / Millenium Barley Wine / Bullets / Hop Devil

CAP:
I made a CAP a couple of weekends ago using 22% dry instant polenta (5.5
pounds). I decided to to a modified cereal mash, and mashed the 5.5 pounds
of polenta with 5 lbs of 2 row from 100F up to 154F over 45 mins, rested for
15 mins, and boiled for 45 mins before adding to the main mash. The result
was a very compact grain bed. I could only run my pump for a few minutes
without setting the bed. Any way, we all know what a stuck mash is like so
I'll skip the details, but I tasted the beer last night. It has dropped from
1052 to 1016 and has a very crisp, pleasant corn character. I'll report back
when the beer is cleared, lagered, and bottled.


Millenium Barley Wines:
I, too, make a barley wine as my first batch each year. The first year I did
so, I was thinking how great it would be to drink barley wine the next new
years eve. Now, I just make it because it's a great way to celebrate the
current new year of brewing. I just wanted to say to all the brewers making
a "Millenium Barley Wine" to make something else low in alcohol to celebrate
with as well. You don't want to be face down on the carpet when
double-naught hits from swilling barley wines all night.


Bullets:
So long as there is porter to drink, my wife is happy and supportive.
Otherwise, I hear remarks like 'Another IPA? Why don't you make something I
like?'. I just put the finishing touches on a neon studio on the second
floor of our garage for her, so my bullet supply is large enough to finish
building the brewery on the first floor this spring. As an aside, now that
she has her shop, she plans on making custom neon signs for home brewers. So
far, she has made one for fellow HBDer Mike Gasman in NE, and myself. Mine
reads "Boneyard Brewing Real Ale" and can be seen in the picture on : 

http://www.netaxs.com/people/vectorsys/varady/index.html 


HopDevil:
Here is a recipe I was using last winter to attempt a HopDevil clone. I
basically wanted to start with a big vienna and hop it like all hell. I
didn't choose to use all german malts, but if you want to get close to
HopDevil, you should definiately start with german malt. I drank this side
by side with HopDevil and while I couldn't get the resinous hop character
found the HD, I was happy with the malt profile and happy with the overall
beer in general.

Name:   HopBreath                    O.G.: 1.066
Style:  India Pale Ale             I.B.U.:  64.9
Volume: 12.5 Gallons               A.B.V.:  6.4%

Grains/Fermentables         Lbs    Hops          AAU  Grams  Min
Pale, American 2 Row      13.50    Columbus     12.0  65.00   90
Munich, Belgian           11.25    Tettnanger    5.8  35.00   30
Crystal Light, German      2.75    Spalt         3.5  35.00   30
                                   Tettnanger    5.8  35.00   15
Mash at 152F for 90 mins.          Spalt         3.5  35.00   15
                                   Tettnanger    5.8  35.00    0
                                   Spalt         3.5  35.00    0


That's all folks,

John
- -- 
John Varady                     http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady
Glenside, PA                    rust1d at usa.net



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Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 09:32:43 -0500
From: Ed Choromanski <choroman at voicenet.com>
Subject: Help my barleywine has terminated at 1.038

Hi All:

I need some assistance/advice regarding my first barleywine.  I brewed this baby
at the end of Dec and it had an og=1.103.  I let it ferment for 1.5 weeks in the
primary at 68~70 F (s.g.=1.045 and then transfered to secondary.  The secondary
went for another 2 week at 65F (1.038).  Then I took secondary cold, slowly (3
degrees/day) to about 46F.  Last night I took a gravity reading and it was
1.040, the same as when I put the secondary in the fridge.  The beer is clear
(the clearest I have ever had made) and a good amount of yeast sediment is
sitting on the bottom.  I used Wyeast London Ale yeast.  I was hoping to get the
gravity in the 1.018 to 1.024 range but it looks like I am going to add some
additional yeast.  Any suggestions?  I was told that champagne yeast can be
added but how do you stop the yeast from lowering the gravity too much (below my
desired target)?  Can I add more London Ale yeast, or is the alcohol content too
much for it?

I appreciate you help in this.

Regards,
Ed


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Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:32:51 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Horse beer

David Houseman <dhousema at cccbi.org> suggested to Crispy:

>Perhaps you can combine your wife's hobby with horses and your own brewing
>by making Lambics?  She just may love that wonderful horsey aroma of
>Brettomyces yeast. ;-))

Or skip brewing entirely and use the horse to make American beer.  The late
Chicago columnist and curmudgeon Mike Royko complained that most American
beer tasted as though it had been brewed through a horse.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:22:25 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: High Alcohol contents

Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net> added more information on high alcohol:

>Most common wines in the 20 percent range are fortified. Sherry and
>Sake both attain higher alcohol contents up to 20% by using an ability of
>the yeast to accomodate.   Sherry is made by slowly adding more sugars to
>the wine during fermentation.

Still more clarification.  I've just read the entry on Sherry in Alexis
Lichine's _New Encyclopedia of Wines and Spirits_ (1974 ed., OK, not so
new, but neither am I) to confirm my recollection that Sherry is fortified,
and find that it is except for some for domestic consumption.  I can't find
anything about the slow addition of more sugars, but that doesn't mean it
isn't done.

 From p. 438 ff: "It is a fortified wine, a wine to which grape brandy is
added to bring up the alcoholic content to approximately 15.5% for the
Finos and 18% for the Olorosos." ... "When a wine has had its first,
tentative classification, it is racked ... tested for alcoholic content,
and it this is below strenght, will be slightly fortified with wine brandy
 - a potential Fino up to about 15%, and Oloroso to about 17% or 18% ... .
This addition of brandy definitely separates one style of Sherry from the
other."  [This suggests to me that these levels may be reached or at least
nearly so by fermentation.] ... "Fino is exported at higher alcohol
strength to help it travel (18% to 20%, while domestic Fino is 16% to 17%),
and this diminishes the bouquet."  It goes on to say that through aging,
abv in Amontillado and Oloroso may increase from 18% to 24% or 25%
[presumably through greater evaporation of water than alcohol through cask
walls].

Now back to your regularly scheduled discussion of beer bullets. ;-)

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 09:02:04 -0500
From: marli at bbs2.rmrc.net (Jon Macleod)
Subject: re: too cold lagering

Good questions Chris.   I don't have answers, but have seen fermentation
essentially stop around 40F.  Sorry, I don't recall the particular lager
strain I was using, but has happened on a few occasions.   I lager in a
particularly cold corner of my basement (walled off).   In these cases,
after a few weeks, I've moved the beer to a warmer part of the basement
to get it back around 50.  It fermented fine, though took a LONG time to
clear.

Mike



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Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:09:08 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: MCAB woes

Louis, I'd really suggest introducing entry fees.  It's nice
to have the moral high-ground and all that, but let's get realistic -
you need *some* money to run an event like this.  I don't think
there is anyone among us who wouldn't be happy to pay $5 entry
fee, or even $5 if not entering, just to get into the event.
By the sounds of things, without fees of some sort, MCAB is
doomed.

Sorry to be a pessimist ...

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay		Nortel Networks
Norstar WinNT		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
amckay at nortelnetworks.com


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Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:53 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: More Autolysis / Brettanomyces and livestock

     
     Hi all,
     
     Steve responds to my post about autolysis with some of his experiences 
     demonstrating that beer can be kept on the primary yeast for extended 
     periods without autolysis flavors compromising the product.
     
     I know from experience that some yeast strains are more forgiving than 
     others.  Recently, I made a batch of Imperial Porter, split between 
     two yeasts (Wyeast 1338 and stuff harvested from Deschutes Obsidian 
     Stout).  One thing lead to another, and the beer sat on the yeast for 
     3 weeks.  The 1338 was quite autolyzed.  The Deschutes was not.
     
     More recently, I had a batch of Weizen sit on the primary yeast for 3 
     weeks.  Half the beer was on Wyeast 3068, the other half on yeast from 
     an Austrian brewpub.  The 3068 was beginning to pick up autolyzed 
     notes, the Austrian yeast was not.  Note, the 3068 beer was not nearly 
     as autolyzed tasting as the aforementioned stout with 1338.
     
     All of these beers were stored at about 65F (18.3C) for the entire 3 
     weeks.  I have used a couple of other yeasts that have autolyzed in 
     three weeks' time.  I have never had a lager yeast (at cool 
     temperatures) taste autolyzed in three weeks.
     
     Steve mentioned that fine Champagne has an autolysis note.  He's 
     correct!  That is a pleasant way to learn the smell of autolysis.
     
     If anybody wants to learn the characteristics of 1338 autolysis first 
     hand, I'll bring some to the MCAB next week and you can decide for 
     yourself if you want to leave your beer on the primary yeast for 3 
     weeks.  I think I know the answer.
     ----------------------------------------
     Dave Houseman writes about the smell of Brettanomyces yeast (typically 
     prominent in Lambic beers and older bottles of Orval, amongst others). 
     He likens the aroma to that of a horse.
     
     A while back a friend of mine (who rides horses, lived in Belgium and 
     brews) ranted to me about how Brettanomyces does not smell like horses 
     in the least bit.  With this in my mind, I have since paid attention 
     to the smell of horses whenever I have met them.  My friend is indeed 
     correct:  horses do not smell like any beer I have ever had.  Not even 
     close.
     
     I will take this even further:  After 5 years of working as a 
     volunteer at the Bronx Zoo I can state that I have never smelled ANY 
     animal that made me think, "Who's got the Orval?"
     
     I have a theory, which is mine, that Michael Jackson (the beer writer, 
     not the bleach-skinned, squeeky-voiced, mono-gloved pop star) first 
     wrote that Brettanomyces produces horse-like aromas when visiting a 
     Lambic brewery in a less-than-sober state.  My guess is that he was 
     biding his time between brewery tours at a barn, petting the horses 
     and enjoying an afternoon restorative.  He then made his way to the 
     Lambic brewery and tasted their beers.  Confusing the smell on his 
     hand for the smell in his glass, he wrote that the beer was 
     reminiscent of horses.  It's stuck ever since.  It's just a theory.
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:20:52 -0500
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Re: Dispensing from kegs without a CO2 bottle

In HBD # 2948 Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net> wrote


There have been numerous posts lately about trying to dispense from a keg
using charge pressure from the carbonating fermentation.  

<snip>

Ideally accumulators have a rubber inflatable body
inside and the backside of the accumulator is filled with a pressure of
half
the working pressure of the accumulator. This might not be necessary and
would be difficult to accomplish. 

My reply:

They make expansion tanks for hot water heating systems.  They have a built
in rubber(?) diaphragm. The nameplate on mine says "EX-TROL expansion tank
with diaphragm"  It appears to be about 2-3 gal volume.  I also appears to
have something like a valve on the bottom.  I can't see it well because of
the location.  If it did have a valve on one side of the diaphragm and an
inlet on the other (which it does), the inlet could be connected to the
keg.  Let CO2 accumulate on the keg side of the diaphragm.  Pressure relief
on the other if needed.  As beer is drawn down and pressure decreases, use
an air compressor to "pump up" on the valve side of the diaphragm. 

Just my $0.02.  BTW, I may have seen one of these at a Home Depot or Sears
Hardware store.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
0 Degrees 30.21 Min North, 4 Degrees 05.11 Min. East of Jeff Renner


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Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:40:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Graham <weg at micro-net.net>
Subject: Bottler thingies

A question for Those Who Bottle -

	I've spent a fair chunk of change on my brewing setup, but have
spent nothing on bottling (except $5 for the old Eveready bottle capper at
a garage sale.). I would like to graduate beyond squirting beer into a
bottle from a vinyl hose, squeezing it off with thumb and finger when
moving to the next. Can anyone recommend a bottle filler? I fill many
different sizes, so it would have to account for that. I'm not kegging, so
counterpressure doohickies are out.
	On-line, off-line, it's your call.

Thanks - I'll summarize on-line if I get enough responses.

Bill - trying to figure out how to convert lead into beer bullets


"...the only way to deal with bureaucrats is with stealth and sudden
violence."  -  Butros Butros-Ghali



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Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:47:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Ensley <steve at globaldialog.com>
Subject: Dispensing from kegs without a CO2 bottle

If you were confident you would not have too much blowoff, or chould
buffer it through another corny, how about using the co2 from the next
batch to push the current batch out.

Another thought I had was throwing a qt of vinegar and a box of baking
soda in a corny and use that pressure. Again though you would have to
isolate the blowoff somehow.(some chemist better do some calcs first. I
suspect the amounts I just tossed out would blow a corny into next week.

last thought I had was to develop a bag like they use in party pigs but
for use in a corny.  You would have to replace the metal tube with one
that could be pushed against the side though.  this may be a market
opportunity.  If someone ran with it I would hope they would toss some of
the resultant fortune toward the source of the idea ;) .  A variation on
this idea would be to hook a bag up to the gas in  pipe and adapt a
regular tire fitting to a gas in fitting then naturally carbonate the beer
then when necessary add pressure to the keg using a tire pump or a trip to
the gas station.  Since the air would be isolated from the beer by the bag
you would not have the problem of oxidation Of course the bag would have
to be tough enough that it did not puncture to easy I doubt a kitchen
trash bag would be adequate but I may be wrong.  If anyone tried this I
would like to hear how it works.  I suppose some tests could be done
pushing water then inspecting the bag so that you did not have to risk the
life of the beer till the concept was proven.  Another benefit to this
method would be that depending on the kind of air pump you used, you
would have to work for your beer and might reduce that beer belly some.

Steve...


>Here's a crazy idea.  The answer would be a gas accumulator.  A second or
>even a third EMPTY keg connected to the first to give a large head space 
>for the gas to accumulate.  Ideally accumulators have a rubber inflatable
>body inside and the backside of the accumulator is filled with a pressure
>of half




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Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:34:27 EST
From: BioCoat at aol.com
Subject: Hot/Cold Break removal

I usually remove my hot break and cold break using two pots.  Unfortunatly,
this is very wastfull, I typically lose a gallon this way.  Can I just chill
my hot wort and remove both breaks at the same time?  Will this be as
effecient as removing the two in two steps?

Thanks
Rick Georgette


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Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 13:37:10 -0800
From: "Michael P. Beck" <stilts at usa.net>
Subject: My English Mild

I've two questions concerning the English Mild I brewed last weekend. 
It is essentially a half batch of Papazian's "Cheeks to the Wind Mild"
from TNCJOHB with about 6 more oz. of DME added (had it laying around
and wanted to get rid of it before it got rocky).  Anyways, it seems to
be giving off a sulfurous "stench" (as my girlfriend calls it)
reminiscent of rotten eggs.  Since the Bass clone also have fermenting
away also reeks of sulfur, I'm blaming the Danstar London ale yeast I
used.  Now for the paranoid delusion, will this smell stick with the
beer or will it dissipate in a reasonable amount of time?

The second question is regarding the Mr. Beer 2.5 gallon "cask" I have
my Mild in right now for secondary fermentation.  I've got an idea to
use the cask condition the stuff right in the "cask" and dispense it
through the spigot on the side.  What's the collective's ideas on this? 
I'd hate to bottle the stuff because mild really is a draught ale IMHO.

cheers,
mikey.
BSSC/121


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Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:10:26 -0500 (EST)
From: br at interport.net (B.R. Rolya)
Subject: candi sugar, horse blanket


This weekend I attempted to make candi sugar (using directions found in the
Archives) but wasn't able to darken the sugar beyond a gold color.  Any
hints for making dark candi sugar?  I boiled approximately 2.25 cups of
sugar in 1 cup of water.  After a half hour of boiling (and very little
color change), I got bored with watching the pot and decided that we would
brew with light candi sugar (perhaps the adage should be changed to "a
watched pot never caramelizes").

________

Dave Houseman writes:
>Perhaps you can combine your wife's hobby with horses and your own brewing
>by making Lambics?  She just may love that wonderful horsey aroma of
>Brettomyces yeast. ;-))

George De Piro neglected to mention that the Best of Brooklyn prize for the
Belgian category will be a well-worn horse blanket :)  Think of the great
cultures you could get off of it!  Actually, I've never noticed a lambic
character to my horse's blanket (it gets dirty, it gets smelly, but never
has a Brett. character).  I am able, however, to barter homebrew
(Belgian-style or otherwise) for lessons from my trainer.


 - BR Rolya
New York, NY


 - BR
Triage
212-989-4545
800-966-3516
br at interport.net




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Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 13:08:34 -0600
From: Eric Dreher <ericd at reliantdata.com>
Subject: re: HLT size

Dave Hinrichs asks abot HLT size in a 10 gallon brewery:

I'd have to agree that it can be done with a 10 gallon (That's what I'm
using) especially if its on a burner.  I usually heat the mash, then
heat the sparge during the mash.  I've actually been using ~ 10 gallons
of sparge water so I've been heating 6 or so, start to sparge and then
add the last 4 gallons to the HLT, heating it as I sparge, but then
again I don't sparge as a continuous stream.  This allows me to heat the
four gallons as I go.  Given a choice though, I think I'd use a 15
gallon as part of my plan is to jump to one when possible.

Eric Dreher
Austin, TX
Fins to the left!



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Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:33:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Jucks <jucks at firs3.harvard.edu>
Subject: Boston Homebrew Competition and MCAB 2000 qualification

I am again announcing the Fifth Annual BOSTON HOMEBREW COMPETITION
to be held on February 27, 1999 in Boston Mass.  This competition is
sponsored by and run by the Boston Wort Processors.  Entry deadline has
been set as the 20th, and must be received by that date.  

This competition will again be one of the early Qualifying Events for the 
2nd year of the Masters Championship of Amateur Brewing (MCAB) 
that many of y'all have been reading about on this forum so this is your 
early chance to qualify for the MCAB finals in year 2000.  This competition 
is also part of the New England Homebrewer of the Year series.  We draw 
many Master and National rank BJCP judges to this competition each year!

All BJCP categories are too be judged.  As a reminder, the MCAB 2000 
substyles are as follows:
(1)    Classic American / Pre-Prohibition  (BJCP 1(D)).
(2)    Czech / Bohemian Pilsner (BJCP 2(A)).
(3)    Kolsch (BJCP 3(D)).
(4)    Strong Bitter (BJCP 4(C)).
(5)    Scotch & Scottish Ales (BJCP 5 (all substyles) &
        11(B) (Strong Scotch Ale))
(6)    APA (BJCP 6(B))
(7)    California Common / Steam Beer (BJCP 6(C)).
(8)    IPA (BJCP 7)
(9)    Vienna (BJCP 9(B))
(10)  American Brown (BJCP 10(D))
(11)  Barleywine (BJCP 11(D))
(12)  Imperial Stout (BJCP 11(C))
(13)  European Dark Lager (BJCP 12 (all substyles))
(14)  Hellesbock/Maibock (BJCP 13(B))
(15)  Robust Porter (BJCP 14(A)
(16)  Sweet Stout (BJCP 15(A))
(17)  Strong Belgian & French Ales (BJCP 17 (all substyles)).
(18)  Lambic (BJCP 18(B))

All of the information anyone needs to enter the competition or to judge in 
the competition can be found at http://www.wort.org, including entry forms, 
bottle labels, judge registration forms, dropoff and mail-to info, etc.  
I encourage all of y'all who are interested in this competition to obtain 
your information through this channel.  For those of y'all who don't have 
web access, e-mail myself (Ken Jucks, jucks at cfa.harvard.edu) with your 
e-mail and snail-mail addresses and I will get you the required information 
ASAP.

Thanks and good luck brewing!!

Ken Jucks
Coordinator for the 1999 Boston Homebrew Competition
jucks at cfa.harvard.edu
617-496-7580 (w), 781-276-7985 (h)
http://www.wort.org  <-- See this site!!!  ***



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Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 13:39:40 -0600
From: Eric Dreher <ericd at reliantdata.com>
Subject: Oxygen absorbing bottle caps

I've gotten some "oxygen absorbing" bottle caps supposedly to prevent
oxidation.  It is said that Celis and some others are using them now.
It is said that you do not sanitize, even more so, don't even get them
wet.  I was told to cap and then tilt the bottle just to get the beer to
touch the cap and thus "activate" the oxygen absorption.  I haven't
actually bottled much until recently and I believe I've been producing
much better beer than in my past of bottling, so I can't tell if my beer
is being *saved*  I suppose its a pretty darned easy experiment for me
to try.  Say, use two types of caps and see what different temperatures
and storing times do to the beer?  Anybody else used these caps...found
them to be worth the dollar extra per gross, not that a dollar is much
but it is almost a third more expensive.

Eric Dreher
Austin, TX



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Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:20:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Ward <paulw at doc.state.vt.us>
Subject: Unfortunate Pairings

I like beer.  A lot!  I also like a lot of food.  My favorite
dining experiences seem to always involve one of Greg Noonan's 
restaurants - either the 7 Barrell Brewery in West Lebanon, New
Hampshire or the Vermont Pub and Brewery in Burlington, VT.  Last
night I ate at the latter.  While waiting for my appetizer I had a
pint of hand drawn IPA - very good although not up to what I usually
have from their draught system.  Might have been the bottom of the
cask, I don't know but this was still an enjoyable quaff.  

I've been spending way too much of my precious free time watching the
Food Network on TV and tried pulling a 'David Rosengarten (sp?)' by
matching a beer to a food.  I was hungry, and adventursome.  I
ordered the Jamaican jerked chicken.  Hmmm,...what to order with it. 
I could have had another IPA, but I don't get to the big city too
often, so I thought I'd try something else.  The Silk Ale sounded
interesting, but not all that different from the IPA I just had. 
There was still some of their Fest beer left (or holiday ale, I'm not
quite sure) - kinda late in the season for specialties.  They had a 
lambic (Plambic, I guess), but sour is not one of my favorite taste 
profiles.  I have had their red ale before, and it's a very good beer, 
but it still falls into that pale ale grouping.  That left the Chocolate 
Oatmeal Stout to try.

I'm old enough to know all about assumptions, but I still make them
anyway.  I assumed that a chocolate oatmeal stout would be a sweet
stout (hey, chocolate's sweet, my oatmeal is sweet, some stouts are
sweet).  I shoulda asked.  Sweet it was not.  It was a very good
stout, great mouthfeel, but definitely a strong dark grain profile. 
This would have been a great beer to sip by a fireplace, or to dawdle
over when looking into a lover's eye's.  It was NOT the beer to match
with jerked chicken.

Was I naive to assume a chocolate oatmeal stout would be sweet? 
Probably.  Would it have been a good pairing with the jerked chicken
if it was sweet?  I dunno.  All I know is that there was a definite
battle going on between my taste buds and I was the loser.

Are there any other beer/food pairing that should be steered away
from?  Anyone else ever have a gastronomic failure?  Enquiring
palates want to know.

Paul in Vermont
paulw at doc.state.vt.us

- -- 
According to government height/weight charts,
I'm seven and a half feet tall.


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Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:37:27 -0500
From: "Marc Battreall" <batman at terranova.net>
Subject: Y2K Celebration Ale

Hello All,

I am planning a simple barley wine (my first btw) using malt extract and
some steeped grains. I am almost exclusively an all grain brewer but thought
it would be simpler to use extract because I am only making a 2 gallon batch
to bring in the new millenium. My question refers mainly to the yeast; I was
going to use Danstar's Nottingham Dry (also a first for me) because of what
I have read regarding it's alcohol tolerance and it dry taste
characteristics. The OG will be about 1.100 and was wondering if a single 5
gram packet will suffice or should I use two for a total of 10 grams? I plan
on brewing it this week and then aging it until New Years after the ferment
is complete. I have an extensive liquid yeast ranch with 40+ strains
available but have heard that the dry yeast's give pretty good results. What
are some opinions or suggestions from the gang?

Thanks in advance,

Marc

Have A Hop, Hop, Hoppy Day!
============================
Captain Marc Battreall
Backcountry Brewhouse
Islamorada, Florida
batman at terranova.net
captainbrew at hotmail.com



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Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:45:12 -0500
From: "S. Wesley" <WESLEY at MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: RE: Dispensing from kegs without a CO2 bottle (A question)

Having read the janitor's post explaining that KARL thinks I'm an ASS 
for trying to post with a spamproofed e-mail address I now know why 
two of my earlier posts on this subject got lost.
  
	I still have a question about this idea of trying to save or use CO2 
from primary fermentation for use in dispensing beer, so I'll ask it 
again:

Does anyone have information from a reliable resource which discusses 
the impact of pressure on fermentation?  Specifically, Is there a 
point at which the fermatation activity of yeast will be 
significantly impacted due to increased pressure, and if so when?

I have heard that this supposed effect is one of the reasons the 
yeast in naturally carbonated soda does not ferment all the sugar 
in the soda and produce alcoholic soda  (I realize most people 
chill the soda after a few days).

This effect is one of the reasons I suggested trying to dispense by 
fermenting a few quarts in a second soda keg to produce CO2
and feeding periodically through the dip tube.  
						Regards,
						Simon


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Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 22:05:55 +1100
From: "Mark Ellis" <mellis at gribbles.com.au>
Subject: Rodney Morris Circuitry Design Needed

Hi All,

Could one of you kind soul assist me in locating a copy of the
original Rodney Morris RIMS circuit design etc etc. I am looking to
work from the ground up and my brother-in-law is a very enthusiastic
electrician.

Thank you all very much.

Regards

Mark Ellis



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Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:34:13 -0500
From: "S. Wesley" <WESLEY at MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: RE: Math challenge, Max Heat Transfer.

Dear Rod,
 A few years back I spent some time fooling around with the equations
 for a counterflow chiller.  I was able to come up with a model which
 worked passably well, but unless your calculus (differential equation
 solving) skills are in good shape you are probably better off trying
 working this one out through experiment.  If your goal is to maximize
 the rate of heat transfer there are three critical issues for the
 type system you describe. They all center on  preventing the
 concentration of cooler water around the coil which in turn reduces
 the efficiency of heat transfer.  It is possible to show
 mathematically that this effect is much more important than say
 reduced conduction because of thicker walls, or using a material
 which doesn't conduct heat quite as well as copper.

1) Good circulation of hot water in the HLT. 
2) Turbulent flow of water through the coil
3) Good circulation ot the mash around the coil in the mash tun.

It is amazing how important the turbulence is.  (you should be fine
with the flow rate you describe.) I find that my CFC chiller is most
efficient when it is running flat out.  (I chill 18 gal of beer to 68F
in 10 min using about 45 gallons of 53F water)  The efficiency drops
significantly if I try to run it a lot slower. One other comment. 
Have you measured the flow rate that your pump can provide through a
long thin tube?  I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out why
a pump rated at 5.0 GPM was putting out less than half that.  I
finally came to the conclusion that it was the 50' of 1/2" tubing
under open discharge.  Your situation will be different since you are
recirculating.
     Hope this helps,
     Simon


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Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 05:30:10 -0600
From: toml at ednet.rvc.cc.il.us (Tom Lombardo)
Subject: Re: odor in beer

Marc Hering writes:
>Subject: odor in beer?
>
>Greetings Homebrew gurus, 
>
>I am having a bit of a wierd problem that noone I have asked can seem to
>figure out, 
>my last batch was a strawberry ale (kind of a mishmash brew,,,mostly using
>up things I had left over) and while it tastes just fine, (hint of
>strawberry but not too overpowering) it has a really bad odor.I used
>Dextrine malt and 2 row barley. Light Drymalt Extract, Cascade and Saaz
>Hops. I threw 6 lbs of fresh strawberrys into my secondary fermenter
>(after
>heating them to 150 for about 10 min or so then letting them cool down)
>and
>I used about a cup and a half of dry malt extract instead of botteling
>sugar.  
>I am still trying to learn and I will admit that there are things that I
>probably should know but don't. Can anyone point me in the right
>direction?
>or at least tell me what I did wrong?

I've noticed that Saaz hops have a distinctive "aroma" that some might
call an "odor".  I brewed 3 "pilsner-style ales" (I don't yet have a
lagering fridge), and in all 3 cases I thought I had an infection.  I
brought it to my HB supply shop and the owner said, "No, that's the hops".
 Later I tried a Pilsner Urquell (from a freshly tapped keg, not a green
bottle), and there it was again.  Personally, I'm not fond of it.

One man's aroma is another man's odor, I guess.

Tom in Rockford IL  (100 miles NW of Al K.  - I thought we needed a new
reference point.)



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Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:53:52 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: More Autolysis / Brettanomyces and livestock

George De Piro responds that I respond that he ....

>The 1338 was quite autolyzed.  The Deschutes was not.

This doesn't entirely surprise me.   I've had a remarkable number of
problems with WY1338 recently that defy explanation, perhaps autolysis is a
part.  Under the proper conditions a very nice yeast, but in my experience -
finicky.

I think the kernel to carry away is that if you are expecting autolysis
aroma to always be reminiscent of a set of Goodyear GTX's you should be very
surprised that it may sometimes smell more like a toasty Moet & Chandon Brut
Imperial.  Loss of head is an early sign of autolysis to watch for.

> Brettanomyces yeast [...] He likens the aroma to that of a horse. [...]
>     I have a theory, which is mine, that Michael Jackson [...]
>     Confusing the smell on his
>     hand for the smell in his glass, he wrote that the beer was
>     reminiscent of horses.  It's stuck ever since.  It's just a theory

Wine writers sometimes refer to the smell of brett as 'horsey', but also
'barnyard', 'leather' and most often 'earthy'.  I don't think any of these
are a 'ringer' of a description, but I too have a theory which is mine.
Horses working hard will sweat considerably and the saddle pad and will soak
through.  The combination of the earthy smell of dusty paddock or barn,
acrid butyric sweat and wet leather aroma does for me have some association
with brett (among other things) - still it's not a common experience for
most people today and aroma/flavor associations should be accessible.

Somewhere I saw that M.Jackson described the aroma of CO2 as "vegetal".  Can
anyone explain this ?  I don't get vegetal from CO2.

S-




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Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 07:34:49 -0500
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Oxidation of bottled beers

In a recent thread, we have been discussing the liklihood of air introduced
at bottling oxidizing our homebrew, especially with some discussion of the
potential (or lack therof) of yeast to prevent oxidation.  Much thanks to
George De Piro and Steve Alexander for adding to this discussion.

As a tangent to that discussion and independently, the issue of yeast
autolysis has also come up, and George again has contributed to our
understanding of this, warning us of off flavors that can easily be
contributed by autolyzed yeast from the primary in a few weeks time.

I have a question, especially to George since he seems to have some
first-hand knowledge of this:

How is storage on the cake of yeast in the primary any different than
storage on the cake in the secondary or in the bottle?  And if yeast
autolysis is such a problem, how can one produce a decent bottle-conditioned
beer, such as a barleywine or any other big beer, that is supposed to
REQUIRE some aging to produce its characteristic flavors?
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA


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Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:18:28 -0500
From: John Herman <johnvic at earthlink.net>
Subject: aeration solution

I figured out a solution to my air pump foaming problem.  What I did on
Sunday was transfer the cooled wort to a bottling bucket through a
strainer.  I did my aeration, since a bucket has more headspace, foaming
was less of an issue.  When the foam did get high, I knocked it down
with a santized spoon.  After the prescribed aeration I pitched the
yeast and aerated for another hour.  I kept the wort covered and kept my
spoon in a bleach solution.

JH





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Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:16:52 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Autolysis

I posted regarding George DiPiro's comments on oxidation / yeast autolysis
and said:

>     You ask:  "Yeast autolysis.  George, how can I justify leaving my
>     barleywine in a carboy for 3 to 4 months?  Or my strong belgian ales, 
>     or anything I want to let bulk age for a while?"

George said:
>     You store beer 3-4 months in the primary?!? 

I inadvertently left people with the impression that I left beer in the
primary for 3 to 4 months.  NO, I DON'T.  It was in the secondary.  George
indicated that in a secondary, it is more like a giant bottle.  Once you've
gotten the beer off the "spent" yeast and cold break, etc. it is safe to
bulk age the beer.  It's that huge yeast cake and "gunk" that is a problem.
  Secondary aging is fine.

Also, I mentioned the use of a carboy for secondary with too much headspace
leading to oxidation.  This is why many HBD posters prefer to secondary in
corny kegs.  Purge with CO2 and no risk.  

I think I'll look for some more cornies...don't cost that much different
from carboys.

nathan in madison, wi




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Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:27:40 -0600 
From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us>
Subject: math challenge

The ten foot coil will reach Chicago roughly 15 nanoseconds before the
sparge tank where it will promptly sign a one-year contract with the Cubs
who figure the coil's got a better shot at throwing runners out than Scott
Servais.

Mike 
New Orleans, LA


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Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:53:15 -0500 (EST)
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Beer on Yeast

Steve asks:
>Anyone else care to comment on whether they do or do-not detect flavor
>problems from keeping beer on yeast beyond 3 weeks ?

I often leave my beer on the yeast for 3-6 weeks before bottling, skipping a
secondary vessel entirely. I find that I get clean, clear beer that
carbonates within 2 weeks and has very little bottle sediment. I have never
noticed any "meaty" or "rubbery" aromas from this practice and would
certainly discontinue it if I did. My '99 barley wine will likely remain on
it's yeast bed for 2 months (although it was racked once after fermentation
completed) and I don't anticipate problems.

Later,

John





- -- 
John Varady                     http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady
Boneyard Brewing                The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
Glenside, PA                    rust1d at usa.net



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Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 09:06:06 -0600
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: oxidation, autolysis

Greetings;

Peter Calinski writes about oxygen invasion theory:

>Here is a mind game....{snip}.  therefore, the concentration of O2 in the 
>wort in the fermentor will be the same as if the wort were open to the 
air.  >Where have I gone wrong?

A couple of things to keep in mind:

Brewing beer is not at equilibrium.  CO2 bubbles forming in the beer 
agitate the beer and help keep O2 from going into solution.  the flow of 
CO2 out of the airlock forms a convection current directed out of the 
fermentor.  I don't think that partial pressure theory applies under these 
circumstances.

I don't have references to back me up, but here goes anyway.  Over the 
last 15 years I have bottled over 2000 bottles of beer (VERY conservative 
estimate).  Everything I have ever brewed has been bottled.  I have never 
purged my carboys, bottle bucket, or bottles with CO2.  Initially, I used 
a cheap bottling wand that splashed around quite a bit.  then a few years 
back I bought a Phil's Philler (that's right, the one that actually 
INJECTS air through a tiny hole located near the input end).  Guess what?  
With only one or two minor exceptions, my beers never show any signs of 
oxidation.  

I have several barley wines at different ages.  One batch is 4 years, 5 
months old at this posting.  Only now is it starting to pick up the 
slightest hint of a sherry-like aroma and flavor.  Definitely oxidation 
starting to kick in.  Actually, assuming is doesn't get too bad, it almost 
enhances the flavor.

I guess this means that I have crossed the street over 2000 times without 
looking and have not got hit - must by an alley or a residential side 
street.

One caveat:  Most of my beers are stored at relatively cool cellar 
temperatures and they consumed within about 12 to 18 months.  Oh, and 
please do not write me about my inferior taste buds.  As I am sure even 
George DP would agree, off-flavors due to oxidation are some of the 
easiest  defects to identify.

Steve Alexander writes about yeast autolysis, or his lack of observing 
yeast autolysis.  I couldn't agree more.  I used to worry and rack all my 
beers to a secondary fermentor. Now, with the exception of a few previously
 mentioned barley wines,  I rarely if ever do.  Most of my beers sit in 
the primary fermentor until they are ready to bottle.  And due to my busy 
schedule,  sometimes the primary fermentation stage is prolonged to six 
weeks or more.  Six weeks in a primary fermentor on the original yeast 
cake??  Recipe for autolysis??  Nope, I have never detected any off 
flavors that I would attribute to autolysis.  

I guess I found yet another side street

Brew On,

Paul Niebergall


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---