---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Competition Calendar (HBD Competition Calendar)
  re:Bock again, copper not soluble in acid (Jeff)
  Copper (AJ)
  Oxygen Barrier Caps (Dan Listermann)
  racking tip (Mike Allred)
  dispensing from corny kegs ("Spies, Jay")
  Re: Alcohol content and fortification (Jeff Renner)
  What is Dry Hopping? ("Kelly")
  New Millineum brews... ("Kelly")
  netscape reading my hbd (jim williams)
  Capturing CO2, yeast sutolysis,high "FG" barleywines, Brett (Dave Burley)
  Lager Hops question (Tony Zara)
  Fermentation Under Pressure (LaBorde, Ronald)
  RE: Dispensing from kegs without a CO2 bottle (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Motor for Mill, What  RPM? (Badger Roullett)
  RE: Bottle thingies (Guy Burgess)
  re: beer and food ("Riedel, Dave")
  RIMS Design (Joe KISH)
  Re: Dispensing from kegs without a CO2 bottle ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Re: candi sugar (Scott Murman)
  keg lube/QD posts (John Wilkinson)
  Horse beer (John Wilkinson)
  Duesseldorfer Altbier (BrewInfo)
  Re. Barleywine stuck at 1.038 (Dean Fikar)
  Miscellaneous Beer Thoughts (Ted McIrvine)
  13th Annual Big & Huge Homebrew Competition (steve)
  Challenge! Scientific Measurement for Autolysis (Randy Shreve)
  White Labs vs. Wyeast (Paul Kerchefske)
  Real Ale or Bust ("Dan Buche")
  Brettanomyces (Andrew Smith)
  Re: Precipitating Bicarbonates ("Arnold J. Neitzke")
  A new momily? (Steve Jackson)
  Yeast's affect on head retention (Steve Jackson)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:25:45 -0500 (EST)
From: HBD Competition Calendar <calendar at brew.oeonline.com>
Subject: Competition Calendar

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Folks, some pitiful, childish fool took it upon him/her self last week to
attempt to stuff the Competition Calendar with gibberish. Not a big
problem, just that I haven't the time to go and clean up the file
everytime some idiot's IQ drops sub-zero.

Due to this, we have another case of one jackass spoiling it for all. The
Competition Calendar is no longer open for posting. You can still access
the calendar and read entries - you simply cannot directly post entries
any longer. At the bottom of the calendar is a link to a mail address -
Calendar at hbd.org - and a list of requirements to be fulfilled in your
e-mail. If you have a competition you'd like to add to the calendar, send
a note to Calendar at hbd.org containing the information as indicated on the
calendar page, and we'll take care of it. 

ALLOW PLENTY OF LEAD TIME. Unfortunately, we can not be as timely as you
could have been.  Allow enough time that we can post your information
before you expect to see entries.

Hopefully we'll be able to contain this system until some idiot-proofed
entry form can be developed.

Thank you!

The HBD Competition Calendar

Note:
The requirements as copied from the web page are provided below:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Because some childish simpleton decided to increase my workload by
entering gibberish into the calendar, it has been locked. If you wish to
make an entry, contact calendar at hbd.org. Include the following: 

1 Your Name 
2 Your e-mail address 
3 The competition name 
4 Competition website (if any) 
5 Contact name and e-mail or phone (with area code) 
6 Entry deadline (might want a "entries received from - to" format) 
7 Competition date or judging dates (begin/end)
8 Date score sheets, ribbons, etc are expected to be mailed to brewer by 
9 Any specifics: style limitations, etc.

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:05:38 -0500 (EST)
From: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff)
Subject: re:Bock again, copper not soluble in acid


Hi All,

  The other day Dave Burley wrote:

>Interestingly, copper bowls are used to make nice stiff egg whites
>because the miniscule amount of copper atoms ( from the dissolved
>copper oxide) react with the albumin to crosslink protein chains and
>make a stiffer foam.

  So I sent him the following via private email:

>  Could this reaction between copper and protien chains have any
>implications for brewing?  Maybe break formation or foam postive
>protien development?  Is albumin present in wort?

  His response is probably of general interest to the collective,
so here it is:

>Albumin is just a general name for water soluble proteins, so they
>certainly do occcur in beer. In large quantities,copper forms complexes
>with tannins from hops and proteins to generate a metallic haze. Iron
>does also. These can be difficult to remove.
>
>However, I would guess that minor amounts of copper might have the same
>effect of stiffening the head on a beer which consists of a water/alcohol
>film with surfactants made up of proteins and hop tannins
>
>Good observation!! Why not incorporate your question and my answer in a
>response to the HBD?


  After a few years of reading the HBD all of this pointy-headed stuff
actually makes sense!  :)

                                                 Hoppy brewing,

                                                 Jeff

==========================================================================

Geoffrey A. McNally                  Phone:  (401) 832-1390
Mechanical Engineer                  Fax:    (401) 832-7250
Naval Undersea Warfare Center        email:
Systems Development Branch              mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Code 8321; Bldg. 1246/2              WWW:
Newport, RI  02841-1708                 http://www.nuwc.navy.mil/


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:27:09 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Copper

Dave Burley posted a day or 2 ago to the effect that copper is not
dissolved by acids because of the relative positions of H+ and Cu in the
electromotive series. This does not say that copper won't dissolve, it
just says that the equilibrium is way over on the copper side so that
the amounts of copper ion found in an acid soultion after exposure are
miniscule - certainly not enough for a brewer to worry about.

Many people with wells (and as I recall Dave is one of them) can testify
that the carbonic acid from well water is corrosive to copper piping.
Again the rate of corrosion is quite slow so that it takes years
(typically) for those little pinhole leaks to occur. This means that the
amount of copper pickup is small. Water from my well picks up 1 mg/L Cu
in standing overnight in the pipe. If the water has been running to the
point where the pipe is flushed, the level is much lower than this.

There are things in well water besides acid which aid in the dissolution
of copper such as clear water (ferrous) iron and dissolved oxygen.
Nevertheless even deionized water will dissolve copper and this can be
verified by placing a clean penny in some and checking the copper ion
content after a day or so. In this case the acid comes from dissolved
CO2 from the air and so I suppose one could argue that dissolved O2 from
the air may also play a role. Use of the Nernst equation with the
electromotive series potentials to calculate the equilibrium quantity of
copper dissolved by acid at pH around 6 results in very small dissolved
levels indeed.

The real point to all this is that wort will pick up copper from copper
kettles from a combination of factors. The acid, dissolved O2 in the
wort, other oxidizing agents in the wort etc., but this is not a bad
thing. Copper is not a poison in reasonable quantities. The lethal dose
for humans is estimated to be between 3.5 and 35 grams. The Food and
Nutrition Board established a "safe and adequate" daily dietary intake
of 1.5 to 3.0 mg. As some British and German beers contains up to 0.8
mg/L readers are advised to keep  consumption of these beers below 3.75
L (just about a gallon, so that's easy to remember) per day. Apparantly
10 mg/day can cause nausea though it had been reported that chronic
doses of up to 35 mg/day are tolerated without adverse effect in some
cases. Don't forget that barley contains some copper.

Just as our cells need copper, so do yeast cells. Some brewers throw
pennies (or pfenige or whatever the copper currency of the realm) or
bits of copper in the brew kettle to make sure there is some in the
wort. According to H,B,S&Y copper levels in beer range from 0.01mg/L to
the previously mentione 0.8 mg/L with average levels of 0.19 mg/L in
German beers and 0.11 mg/L in "lagers". British beers range over 0.3 to
0.8 mg/L.

Wine, like wort,  dissolves copper metal. The wine industry often runs
their product over copper sheeting or through copper piping to reduce
sulfide (someone mentioned this earlier in this thread). If the exposure
is excessive the result is "copper casse" which I believe refers to the
situation in which much copper is dissolved that it can be tasted (the
EPA's secondary limit for copper in water is 1 mg/L so that's probably
about the level at which it's detectable by taste). I was recently
contacted by a gentleman who had dipped copper wire into his wines to
pull sulfide rather than using his usual copper sulfate treatment and
wanted them tested for copper.  Four samples (different wines) averaged
0.36 mg/L.

Summary:
1. Dissolution of copper by acid is thermodynamically "unfavorable" but
does occur to a very limited extent.
2. There are lots of other effects which get copper dissolved in wort
which are probably responsible for the majority dissolved in the kettle.

3. Barley contains copper.
4. Copper isn't poisonous at low levels and is required for human (and
yeast) health.
5. Don't drink more than a gallon of German or British beer in a day.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:26:16 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Oxygen Barrier Caps

Eric Dreiher asks about oxygen barrier caps.  I started to question the
usefullness of these when I noticed that the caps tend to puncture the 
bags
that they are packaged in.  


Dan Listermann           dan at listermann.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:23:14 -0500
From: Mike Allred <mike.allred at malnove.com>
Subject: racking tip

Last night I was raking a Cyser and oxidized the hell out of it because
the tubing kept bending upward and creating a # at (*& fountain in the
second carboy.  The tubing insists on keeping the curved shape from the
roll it came on.  With nothing else to lose, I tried something new.  I
cut about 1 foot off an extra raking cane I had and added it to the end
of the hose.  I worked perfect!  This keeps the end down under the fluid
level where I want it.  I would highly recommend this method to anyone
else having the same problems.  Now, I just hope I didn't damage my
Cyser too bad.


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:54:16 -0500
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: dispensing from corny kegs

All -

Regarding the thread on dispensing from cornies -

Here's a thought . . .

Get a 5 pound used fire extinguisher (local shop has them for 25 bucks,
hydro'd and filled) get a single gauge regulator (30 bucks if you shop
around) and forget all the complicated CO2
transferring/holding/storage/pressure regulation nonsense.

If you *really* like to tinker, by all means, be my guest, but for around
$60, you're off and running with a *real* CO2 dispensing system that is
foolproof and will likely lessen your Maalox consumption in the long run.

Just my .02 . . .

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:02:48 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Alcohol content and fortification

Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net> added more info on alcohol tolerance, which
I agree with, except regarding port:

>The increased alcohol content halts bottle aging and causes the
>wine to keep for long periods of time, thus 100 year old ports and sherrys.

Vintage ports definitely age in the bottle - wonderfully.  When first
bottled - around two years, as I recall, they pretty rough.  I have a half
case of Warre '77 I haven't even opened yet. It's still just getting
better.  The fortification does certainly allow long life, though.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:32:53 -0600
From: "Kelly" <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: What is Dry Hopping?

Hi All,
Quick newbie question...I've seen references to 'Dry Hopping' in association
with oxidation...could someone explain what this process is?  I've only put
hops in the wort while boiling.....what is it, and what are the benefits?

TIA!!

Kelly
New Orleans

PS.  Happy Mardi Gras!!



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:36:28 -0600
From: "Kelly" <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: New Millineum brews...

Hey, just a thought, if you are making a 'New Millineum' barley wine....it
will have plenty of time to age.  You will drink it in 2001.....

Year 2000 isn't the change of the millenium, 2001 is.  We started at year 1,
not year 0....

Just a thought....

Kelly



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:56:38 -0800
From: jim williams <jim&amy at macol.net>
Subject: netscape reading my hbd

Alright,
a computer related beer question:
I can't finish reading my hbd sometimes, because netscape cuts it off
about two thirds of the way down. Maybe ther's something else I need to
do, but I don't know what it is.

i used to be on aol. I had to download the hbd, before I could read it.
Is this what needs to happen here? If so, how do I do it. Please, I'm
not incredibly computer literate.

Thanks, Jim





Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:15:05 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Capturing CO2, yeast sutolysis,high "FG" barleywines, Brett

Brewsters:

Simon is musing over pressure fermentations as a way of
capturing CO2 and puts forth the thought that perhaps the
reason soda pop does not ferment in the bottle is
because the pressure keeps it from fermenting.

Don't believe it!

Champagne bottles typically go to 5 or 6 atmospheres
of CO2.  This would produce a glass grenade of most
bottles, as some unfortunate brewers know from first
hand experience. I haven't read a soda bottle or a can
for a long time, but I suspect they use potassium sorbate
or the like to prevent fermentation in the can or bottle.
Certainly the CO2 pressure wouldn't do it.

Frankly, I puzzled for many years over this possibility of
capturing the CO2 from the fermentation, tried lots of
ideas and eventually settled on the Cornelius keg route
long before I ever read about it in any homebrewing
magazine or book. I minimized the amount of CO2 I used
by using natural carbonation from priming the keg with
sugar and an actively fermenting kraeusen starter
( see the archives), just like I had been doing in bottles
for decades.  Later I tried the minikeg route to allow me
to have a keg in upstairs fridge and to transport it to a
party and the like. I tried at first to carbonate it in the
minikeg as I do in the keg by natural fermentation,
but found that the amount of priming sugar for a lager
produced a bulging keg. In all, the cost of the minikeg
adventure was nearly the same as the Cornelius keg
and has a lot higher cost for CO2., limits on the pressure
and really just was not as good as the Cornelius keg. 


I eventually came back to the conventional Cornelius keg
with CO2 tank and the like as the most practical method.
On the small scale that we brew it is unlikely we will be
able to capture the CO2 economically and safely.
- -----------------------------------
George De Piro's and other recent comments on yeast
autolysis needs some filtering, I believe.  Yeast autolysis
is a possibiility, but frankly in several decades of brewing,
and of using the natural carbonation method in which beer
stands on yeast for up to a year, I can honestly say I have 

never experienced an autolysed taste in my beers.

I would not describe the taste of fine champagne as
meaty and the like adjectives which have been applied 

to autolysed yeast. Good champagne does have a "yeasty"
taste but my beers do not get that taste either.  If you want to
smell autolysed yeast try some of that stuff ( like Vegamite)
Brits and Ozzies lovingly put on their toast in the morning.
Now that is autolysis!

I have used lots of yeasts, but do not recall off the top of my 

head if I ever tried 1338, so I cannot comment on this one.
I suspect George may be having another problem if he finds
this in many of his beers.. 

- -------------------------------
For those of you who have been making high "FG" barleywines
try "dropping" the  barleywines two or three times during the early
part of the fermentation by racking the wines into other carboys.
Do not rack off the yeast, but transfer all of the contents from one
carboy to another.

 If you have a large enough carboy, use a stirrer made of a dowel
with a new moon shaped blade which can rotate so that it can
be inserted into the carboy and removed. Coat it with
polyurethane and allow it to dry a week before using.Spin the
stirrer to stir up the yeast by rolling the dowel back and forth
using the palms of the hands.
 

This will keep yeast flocculation from allowing the wine to come 

to a premature finish of the fermentation.

You may eventually come to the point where you can no longer
get a reduction in the gravity and this will likely be the point at 

which the yeast will poop out.  You can try adding another 

starter of the same or different yeast.  S. Bayanus will ferment
nearly dry in most cases, so use it with caution, especially when
bottling with this and you have  a sweet barleywine made with
another yeast.. 

- ----------------------------------
George De Piro's reference to Michael Jackson and giving him
credit for the term horsey,horseblanket, leathery, barnyard and
the like is only off by several centuries when these terms were
applied to Burgundy wines infected with Brettanomyces ( that so
called "French" taste to Pinot Noir).  Tasters of wines used to  brag
over their ability to identify tastes and some monks were supposedly
quite remarkable. The (apocryphal) story goes that one monk
described a wine as leathery and metallic only to find that the keg
did contain a leather keyring with a key still attached!

No, I do not think Michael Jackson should be given credit for
developing descriptive language for beverages. Brettanomyces
to me is an "unclean" taste opposite to the use of clean as we use
it to describe beers.  It is a background taste that does provide
complexity and some people like it for that reason.



Keep on brewin'


Dave Burley

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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:21:18 -0600
From: Tony Zara <tzara at ncsbn.org>
Subject: Lager Hops question

Dear Collective,

I want to make a german-type lager, but don't have the proper temperature
control. So I thought I'd use Wyeast 2112 and the following recipe: 
for 5 gallons
9 lb German pilsner
1 lb Belgian aromatic
1 oz. Liberty (4% AA, leaf, first wort hopped)
1 oz. Perle (8% AA, leaf, 60 min.)
1 oz. Liberty (4% AA, leaf, 5 min.)
1 oz. Liberty (leaf, dryhopped) 
Wyeast 2112 in 1/2 gallon starter 
Mash in at 149 F; hold for 30 min; pull decoction, raise to 158 hold for 20
min; raise to boil for 15 min; let cool a bit; return to main mash and hold
at 153 for 30 minutes, raise to 168 F; hold for 10 min. Sparge. Cool. Pitch.
Ferment at about 60-62 F. til done; bottle condition; then lager at 33 F for
a few weeks. 
My question is - I also have Mt. Hood hops available and wondered how they
might work in this recipe? My understanding is that Mt. Hood and Liberty
both have similar noble-type (Hallertau) hop properties, but I don't have
any experience with Mt. Hood and have made only one beer using Liberty. Any
experienced U.S. hoppers have some advice? 

TIA,
Tony (35 mi. NW of Chicago)



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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:00:44 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: Fermentation Under Pressure

>>>>
Does anyone have information from a reliable resource which discusses 
the impact of pressure on fermentation?  Specifically, Is there a 
point at which the fermentation activity of yeast will be 
significantly impacted due to increased pressure, and if so when?
<<<<

Reliable, no.

Speculative, yes:

I wonder just how much pressure yeast is going to be under at say, 30PSIG.
I mean, really, if the yeast cell had a surface area of one square inch,
then yes, 30PSI.  But if you realize that the square inch of surface area of
a yeast cell is such a small part of one square inch, then the pressure on
the very small area would be hardly anything.  That is, the 30 pounds per
square inch multiplied by the square inches of a yeast cell would be very
small indeed.  I cannot see how this would have much affect unless the PSI
pressure becomes extremely large.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:05:50 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Dispensing from kegs without a CO2 bottle

>>>>
I still have a question about this idea of trying to save or use CO2 
from primary fermentation for use in dispensing beer, so I'll ask it 
again:
<<<<<

I don't doubt that some way can be found, but I ask should this be done.

The fermentation byproducts, some desirable, some not so desirable, would be
all captured and incorporated into the beer's flavor profile.  Would you
want that sulfur aroma which is often expelled during fermentation to be
captured and included in your beer?

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:35:45 -0800
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: Motor for Mill, What  RPM?

I finally got my Marga mill in from Brew Guys, and I have a general question
about modifying mills to make the motorized..

What speed is best for milling grain?  I have seen some neat looking motors
for sale, but have NO IDEA what would be good.   The cool surplus site,
http://www.sciplus.com/ has some motors of a wide range available for
cheap..

for example..
 -1/30 horsepower 115 VAC, .65 amp continuous duty motor runs at 3300 rpm  $5
 - 1/20 horse unleashed as 1300/1600 rpm in a clockwise direction when fed
 .68/.76 amps of 120 VAC, 50/60 Hz single phase electricity.  $7.50
 - 72 RPM Synchronous Motor 120 VAC  25 oz.-in. of torque, $7.50 
I dunno nuthin bout moters...  can you all help me figure out what sort of
specs i am looking for?

thanks, Badger in seattle



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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:59:10 -0500
From: Guy Burgess <orientalwok at fuse.com>
Subject: RE: Bottle thingies

Bill Graham is in the market for a bottle filler:

I have, for 4 years, been using a Phil's Philler from Listermann Mfg. I
believe you can find it in most catalogs. It is minimally more expensive
than the plastic versions and vastly more durable and efficient.

This filler is all-metal construction therefore easily cleaned &
sanitized. There is little foaming because of the valve construction and
placment. IMHO, the biggest advantage is the lack of displacment and
higher fill levels. Due to all the recent discussion of oxidation damage
this is a real advantage. On the Philler, the valve is at the top of the
fill tube and when you release pressure the liquid in the tube goes into
the bottle. Thus the only displacement is from the volume of the tube
itself, and that ain't much. I haven't used the plastic ones in a long
time, but I think the Philler also fills faster which may or may not be
a concern.

I would also suggest you go ahead and get the longer version. In the
event you ever want to bottle in larger bottles you'll be ready to go. I
initially bought the shorter one, so now I have two Phillers.

Guy Burgess



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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:20:56 -0800
From: "Riedel, Dave" <RiedelD at PAC.DFO-MPO.GC.CA>
Subject: re: beer and food

Paul in Vermont relates an unpleasant experience
with stout and a jerked chicken....

The one pairing that seems to always fail for me
is beer and smoked salmon.  Yeah, I said *beer*.
I've tried, pilsner, light lager, pale ale, stout, 
dark lager... hoppy, not hoppy...  nothing seems
to work.  You just end up with this fish/beer combo
that lingers unpleasantly on the palate.  Neither
taste giving any ground to the other and no
complementary mixing.

Note: I haven't tried Rauchbier yet.  That might work.

Stephen Beaumont's book "A Taste For Beer" goes
into detail regarding food and beer pairings.  An
interesting read...

cheers,
Dave Riedel
Victoria, BC, Canada



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Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:53:59 -0800
From: Joe KISH <jjkish at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RIMS Design

Rodney Ellis,
    Are you sure you want the Original Rodney
Morris RIMS design?  Do you want it complete
with errors?
 It was published in Zymurgy Special Edition,
vol 15, No4, 1992 pp49-54.
   Joe Kish


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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:15:57 -0500
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Re: Dispensing from kegs without a CO2 bottle




From: Philip J Wilcox at CMS on 02/10/99 03:15 PM

It just hit me!! Use a party pig bag (or 2) inserted into the keg upon
kegging. Build the pressure up to about 30 psi the piggy bag seal pops its
self--bleed off the head space. With one you should be able to dispense
half a keg, with 2 you should be able to dispense the whole keg. Granted
that you would have to engineer a method of floating one above the other
inside the keg in order to make 2 work, but it can be done. MMM how about
attaching a S hook to the bottom corner of the down bag. The bags are
rectangular and the air bladder is oval so there is a nice corner of flat
double material to pierce through. By removing and putting back the dip
tube you can slip the other end of the S hook into the dip tube and lower
both to the bottom of the keg. If the S hook is to big and wont let the dip
tube seat properly use a large paperclip. This will keep the Cliped bag on
the bottom and the loose bag floating to the top. It will cost you about 7$
a keg, but its the best solution so far.

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewer
Warden-Prison City Brewers
AABG, AHA, BJCP, HBD, MCAB, ETC., ad nausium...




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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:52:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: candi sugar

B R Rolya wrote:
> I boiled approximately 2.25 cups of
> sugar in 1 cup of water.  After a half hour of boiling (and very little
> color change), I got bored with watching the pot and decided that we would
> brew with light candi sugar 

Are you sure it was the sugar that boiling?  When doing this, the
water is there simply to dissolve the sugar (to avoid scorching).
This is then heated, first boiling off the water, then actually
boiling the sugar-goo.  It takes a bit of time to get the sugar really
going, but once you do, it will darken, and darken quickly.  Be
careful, this stuff boils well over 212F. 

 -SM-


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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:58:10 -0600
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: keg lube/QD posts

William's Brewing has been mentioned as a possible source of keg lube and
another is Superior Products.  They have it by the 3 or 4 oz. tube for not
much more than the Williams 1 oz. package.  Of course, unless you have
something else to order from them the postage could be as much as the lube.
They also have the best prices I have seen for spigots.  I don't have their
number before me but information has it (1-800-555-1212).
As to keg QD posts and poppets, the best and cheapest source I have seen for
those and other keg parts is South Bay Homebrew Supply (800) 608-BREW.  Their
posts are US$5.50 for ball lock Firestone and US$6.50 for Cornelius.  I am
pretty sure they come complete with poppets.  Poppets separately are US$1.95.
I don't have any connection to any of the companies mentioned and have found
them all good to deal with.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas - john.wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com


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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:18:20 -0600
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: Horse beer

Jeff Renner wrote:

>Or skip brewing entirely and use the horse to make American beer.  The late
>Chicago columnist and curmudgeon Mike Royko complained that most American
>beer tasted as though it had been brewed through a horse.

Jax beer from New Orleans had a picture of the statue in Jackson Square of
Andy Jackson on his horse.  We always said of Jax that it was the only
beer in the world with the guts to print a picture of its brewery on the label.


John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas



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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:46:45 -0600 (CST)
From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com>
Subject: Duesseldorfer Altbier

Bill writes:

>Alt in the Family
> 
>8 Lbs Pilsner Malt
>4 Oz Vienna 
>1 Oz Chocolate
>1 Oz Black Patent
>7 Oz Munich
>2 Oz Saaz Hops
>1 Oz Hallertauer
>Wyeast California Lager
> 
> 
>Mash in with 1.5 gal 120F water for 30 Min. Add water chemicals to mash in
>water.
>Raise to 145F for 20 min by adding 1 Gal Boiling water.
>Raise to 155F for 20 min by adding 0.5 Gal Boiling water.
>Sparge with 175F water to collect 7 Gal.
>Boil for 90 min.
>With 45 min left, add 1 Oz Hallertauer.
>With 10 min left, add 1 Oz Saaz.
>At end of Boil, add 1 Oz Saaz
>Transfer 6 Gal to primary.
>Pitch yeast and ferment at 55F for 2 weeks.
>Lager at ambient 35F for 1 week.
>Bottle with 1 3/4 cup wheat DME.

I just wanted to point out that this looks very much like a "Northern
German" or "Dortmunder Altbier," as opposed to a "Duesseldorfer Altbier."
I think it's important to make the distinction, because the difference
is striking!

The biggest difference is that the main malt in a Duesseldorfer Altbier
is traditionally Munich malt.  If I did decoction mashing, I would use
100% dark Munich malt... about 8.5 pounds for 5 gallons.  Secondly,
the bittering is much higher in a Duesseldorfer Altbier.  I used 3
ounces of Spalt (the traditional hop for this style) all for the entire
90-minute boil.  No flavour or aroma hops... the high hop rate will
cause some flavour and even a touch of aroma to spill over from the
bittering addition.  Since I infusion mash, I use around 8 pounds of dark
Munich and 1/2 to 3/4 pound of Aromatic or Melanoidinmalt.  Last time
I believe I just did a single step infusion at 155F.  Just to make the
picture complete, I ferment at around 60F with a big starter of Wyeast
#1338 European Ale and I got 78% apparent attenuation in about two weeks
(using oxygen for oxygenation) for a beer that was hauntingly similar
to Zum Uerige.

I'm sure you are all are tired of my zealous rantings about Duesseldorfer
Altbier, but once you visit Duesseldorf, you will see why I'm so
passionate about this great style and why I always comment when someone
suggests a Pils-based Alt with roasted malts for colour.

Altbier uber alles!


Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at brewinfo.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:19:20 -0600
From: Dean Fikar <dfikar at flash.net>
Subject: Re. Barleywine stuck at 1.038 

I've made 4 batches of barleywine - 3 with the Wyeast London Ale strain
and yes it is a little temperamental at higher alcohol levels.  The
first barleywine I made had an OG of 1.109 and an FG of 1.038.  My
mistake, in retrospect, was racking at 7 days.  The beer turned out fine

 - good enough to win a ribbon at last year's Bluebonnet Brew-Off.  So,
all is not lost if you get a slightly high FG with a barleywine.  The
other 2 batches were left in the primary for 18 days each at 65 degrees
and each got down into the 1.026-7 range from OG's of about 1.103.  BTW,

neither shows signs of autolysis from the long primary as far as I can
tell.

My last batch, brewed three weeks ago, was based on Jethro's classic
Big12 Barleywine recipe. I used Nottingham dry yeast and the SG was
1.024 at racking (14 days in primary) from an OG of 1.106.  The
Nottingham seems more alcohol tolerant and attenuates so well that I
plan to use it again for subsequent barleywines assuming my batch
ultimately turns out as well as I think it will.

Dean Fikar - Ft. Worth, TX





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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:48:09 -0800
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Miscellaneous Beer Thoughts

Regarding autolysis, I've had it occur once, when I left a Scotch ale in
the primary during a long summer vacation.  It can happen, and tastes
really gross.  But I do think many homebrewers are paranoid enough that
they rack fermenting beer too soon more often than too late.

Regarding kegs, does anyone know of a good source of pin-lock kegs?  My
local supplier, East Coast Homebrew, is excellent in many respects ---
certainly some of the best brewing advice on the planet --- but they
seem to be out of kegs.

Regarding millenium beer, I'm making a homebrewed version of Samichlaus
to lament its passing.  I'm going to freeze-concentrate this lager in
the style of an ice Bock, and it started at 105 gravity.  It will
probably require a very long cold lagering, and the hops were so strong
that it was minimally drinkable when I racked it last night after three
weeks in the primary.  Who knows, it might be ready by 2001.

Regarding horse blankets, if my Brooklyn neighbors are serious about
this prize, I'll enter some 1995 lambic in the Best of Brooklyn.  :)  My
wife loves lambic and horses, even though she thinks that they smell
differently.

Finally, I'm wondering which of the following recipes the pundits will
deem a more appropriate Maibock:

Ingredients for 4.5 gallons
9 Lbs DWC Pils, 3.5 Lbs Munich, Single Decoction
1 Oz Tetnang, 1/2 Oz Saaz boil
1/6 Oz East Kent Goldings, 1/6 Oz Saaz, 1/6 Oz Hallertauer 
(three times at 25 minutes, 15 minutes, 5 minutes)
3 hour boil, OG 76, Bavarian Lager Yeast

Ingredients for 5 gallons
12 Lbs. DWC Pils, 1 Lb. Munich, 1 Lb. Aroma, Single Decoction
1/2 Oz Tetnang, 1/2 Oz Hallertauer, 1/2 Oz Saaz, 1/2 Oz Styrian Goldings
Boil
1/2 Oz Styrian Goldings, 1/6 Oz. Saaz, 1/6 Oz. Tetnang, & 1/6 oz.
Hallertauer 30 minutes
1/3 Oz Styrian Goldings, 1/3 Oz. Saaz, 1/3 Oz. Tetnang, 10 minutes
5 hour boil, OG 71, Bavarian Lager Yeast

Whole hops were used in both recipes rather than pellets.  This is one
of my favorite styles, and I want to learn to make a really good one. 
Comments, anyone?

Ted McIrvine
McIrvine at Ix.Netcom.Com


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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:36:15 -0600
From: steve at globaldialog.com
Subject: 13th Annual Big & Huge Homebrew Competition

The Madison Homebrewers & Tasters Guild is proud to sponsor the 13th
Annual Big & Huge Homebrew Competition. Homemade beers will be evaluated
by the trained palates of experienced beer judges. Beer evaluation
sheets will be returned to every entrant with helpful comments and
advice. Awards will be granted in five categories of big and huge
flavored beers. The Best of Show beer will receive the coveted Wooly
Mammoth plaque. Come to the competition to participate in the homebrew
exchange and meet other brewers and beer lovers.

The competition is sanctioned by the Beer Judge Certification Program
and will follow its competition procedures. Each beer will be evaluated
based on its big and huge flavors as well as characteristics of the BJCP
style proposed by the brewer. Please contact us if you are interested in
judging or stewarding. 

When: Sunday, March 28, 1999 12:00 pm (Drop off of preregistered
entries) 1:00 pm (Judging begins)

Where: Wonders Pub, 1980 Atwood Avenue, Madison, Wisconsin


For more information see http://www.gdinet.com/madbrewers/bignhuge.htm


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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:14:46 -0500
From: Randy Shreve <rashreve at interpath.com>
Subject: Challenge! Scientific Measurement for Autolysis

Digest members:
All this talk about autolysis, and unless I've missed it, I haven't seen
one person post any scientific data to back up their assumptions.  How
do you guys know that the off flavors you have attributed to autolysis
are legitimately coming from there?  Why is it that some seem to feel
that beer in a fermenter deteriorates due to yeast rot in just a few
weeks, while bottle conditioned beer sitting on a relatively large yeast
cake seems to do OK for several months?  I have no particular position
on this issue, but one thing is for sure - it doesn't make sense!!

Could there be one of Jack's "Momilies" in here somewhere?

The CHALLENGE
Would one of our brewing scientists please step forward?  I, for one,
would like to see some scientific experimentation done with some hard
data to either prove or refute the REAL effects of autolysis as it
relates to the homebrewer.

I'm not a brewing chemist, but I would suggest the following experiment,
assuming that there is a chemical analysis available to measure the
effects of yeast autolysis:

Brew a batch of beer and split it up into 5 one gallon jugs.  Give each
jug a different yeast to look at the effects on different strains.
Ferment under homebrewing conditions.  Take samples every week for 3-4
months and analyze them.  Sounds easy to me, but then again, I don't
work in a lab either.

How about it....anybody out there with the necessary resources willing
to tackle this for the good of the cause?

Peace and Long Life
Randy in Salisbury, NC



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Date: 10 Feb 99 17:20:08 PST
From: Paul Kerchefske <fritz6 at netscape.net>
Subject: White Labs vs. Wyeast

  I have been thinking about trying White Labs yeast, in particular the 
lager
yeasts. Has anyone done much with them as far as comparison with Wyeast. 
I
have noticed that their recommended fermentation temps are a little 
higher
than Wyeast. Thanks Paul Kerchefske,West side of the pond from Jeff 
Renner.



____________________________________________________________________
More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at 
http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail

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Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:01:08 -0600
From: "Dan Buche" <dpbuche at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Real Ale or Bust

My wife bought me a hand pump for Xmas so naturally I HAD to switch from
bottling to draft. Now I need to know if there are any tricks to cask
conditioning in a corny. Do I treat it just like a big bottle,..add priming
sugar and wait?



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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 00:02:06 -0800
From: asmith at apollo.org (Andrew Smith)
Subject: Brettanomyces

I've never tried a Lambic beer, but I enjoy the smell of brettanomyces in
wine. It seems to me that it would go well in dark, earthy beers. Can
anyone think of non-lambic beers with brettanomyces? Has anyone tried using
it in any of their brews, lambic-style or otherwise? How controllable is
it? I spoke to a professional winemaker about this, and while he greatly
enjoys brettanomyces in 20-year old Bordeaux, he is very scared of it
getting into his wine. "Barnyard" and even "dung" is his favourite
description of it.

Andrew Smith




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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:49:03 -0500 (EST)
From: "Arnold J. Neitzke" <neitzkea at frc.com>
Subject: Re: Precipitating Bicarbonates

On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Gordon Strong wrote:

> I've been reading up on water treatment and several sources suggest
> boiling water with a lot of temporary hardness to precipitate
> bicarbonates and lower pH.  They generally say boil, aerate, decant but
> not much more.  I've got some questions on the technique: how long
> should you let it boil?  when do you aerate: when it's hot or cool?  is

The book I have from Dave Miller says to aerate *as* your filling the
boiler.  I have always done it this way and have gotten lots of
precipitate, with one exception.  That one exception I thought that I
could add lactic acid be for the boil, that was a big mistake, no
precipitate of any kind.

I have noted one thing in all of the times that it has worked for me, the
precipitate does not show up until the temperature is around 170F.

Time of boil?  about 10 minutes is enough for me.

_________________________________________________________
Arnold J. Neitzke     Internet Mail: neitzkea at frc.com
Brighton, Mi          CEO of the NightSky brewing Company
- ---------------------------------------------------------




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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 04:52:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Jackson <stevejackson at rocketmail.com>
Subject: A new momily?

In HBD #2951 (February 11, 1999), Al Korzonas was discussing how yeast
contributes that unique character to many Belgian beers, and how the
Belgians appear over time to have selected yeasts that produce a high
level of esters and higher alcohols. Then he writes:

>>>
A word of warning to those who haven't yet partaken in Belgian beers:
I believe and theorise that if you are not used to higher alcohols, you
will get a raging hangover (due to the higher alcohols) from even
moderate
consumption of some of these rather strong and very aromatic beers.
<<<

This is something I've wondered about for a very long time. Virtually
every brewing book I've read spells out the "law" that higher (fusel)
alcohols lead to killer hangovers. That rule is repeated often on this
and other online forums I participate in. However, I have long
harbored doubts that the correlation between higher alcohols and
high-grade hangovers is as it is made out to be.

I've gotten pretty looped from lengthy Belgian beer sessions in my
day, and not once have I awoke the next morning feeling any different
than had I chosen another beer or alcoholic beverage the night before.
I certainly haven't experienced the raging headaches and generally
misery that higher alcohols supposedly lead to.

Now, I'm only one datapoint, and one datapoint is only marginally
better than none. Plus, I may not be a very good guinea pig in this
case, since I simply do not get hangovers, except from excess
champagne consumption.

I'd be curious what other people's experiences are. Is the higher
alcohol=big hangover rule a momily, or am I just lucky?

 -Steve in Indianapolis




 
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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 05:21:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Jackson <stevejackson at rocketmail.com>
Subject: Yeast's affect on head retention

All the recent discussion about autolosys, and discussion a few weeks
back (or is it even months now) about head retention and such has
gotten me to thinking.

I have a fairly good grasp of what wort constituents help form and
maintain a good head on beer: in simple terms (and the ones pertinent
to the case I'll present in a moment), MMW proteins are the major
component of a good head, and high hopping levels can also help
contribute to better head formation and retention.

In recent months I've brewed three beers with essentially the same
sorts of grain bills and hopping levels. Two have had excellent heads
that from all appearances last so long that they would join
cockroaches as the only survivors of a nuclear holocaust. The third
beer has a had that acts like a frightened turtle: the head makes a
brief appearance and then disappears back into its shell.

Now, some details about the beers. Two of the beers were alts. Both
used grain bills consisting entirely of Durst Munich malt with a touch
of DWC aromatic malt. Both were single-infusion mashed at about 154 or
155 (don't have my notes handy to look up the exact temp.) Both were
hopped to about 40-45 IBU, the first using Hallertauer Hersbrucker
hops, the second using Spalt Spalter hops.

The third beer was a bit of an experiment to see how it would taste to
have an alt-like grain bill but with American hops and late hopping
additions. In other words, a pale ale with a Munich-based grain bill.
This beer was a 50-50 split between Durst Munich and M&F pale ale
malt, mashed at about 152. The beer was hopped to about 45 IBU using
Chinook hops for bittering and Centennial for flavor and aroma. (It
ended up being a good beer, by the way).

The only other variations were yeast: One alt used Wyeast 1007 (German
ale), the other used 1338 (European ale). The experimental pale ale
used 1272 (Amer. ale II). The 1007 and 1272 beers have great
long-lasting heads. The 1338 beer has a head that sticks around for
all of three or four minutes.

Given that the usual variables critical to head formation (grain bill,
mash, hopping levels) were roughly equal, the only conclusion I can
come up with is that the yeast somehow has an affect on head retention
as well. The only other thing I can come up with is that the 1338 beer
sat in primary for about 2.5 to 3 weeks and in secondary for a couple
months, while the other beers were bottled fairly young.

Long story into short question: Does yeast have an affect on head
retention?

 -Steve in Indianapolis



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---