---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  MCAB results (fwd) (Homebrew Digest)
  yeast (Jason.Gorman)
  Boiling (AJ)
  Hot stir plates (Dave Burley)
  re: CO2 Regulator question (John_E_Schnupp)
  re: Stir plates that are too hot (John_E_Schnupp)
  RE: Math challenge, Max Heat Transfer. ("Swintosky, Michael D.")
  Precipitating Bicarbonates ("silent bob")
  horsy taste - or... ??? (VQuante)
  re: beer bullets... (Lou.Heavner)
  CO2 gauge (RMerid7682)
  Priming with wort ("Morris, Luke L.")
  Re: Math Challenge,Max Heat Transfer, DS1820 ("Ludwig's")
  Kegs without CO2 bottle & using accumulators ("Morris, Luke L.")
  Sake brewery experience,additional info.=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCISEbKEo=?= (Mutsuo Hoshido)
  and your point is...? (Jim Liddil)
  HSA documentation (Dan Cole)
  CaCl2 and other salts ("silent bob")
  CaCl2/EtOH (AJ)
  Yeast and Sugar (Eric.Fouch)
  Of course hot water freezes faster - NOT! (Domenick Venezia)
  Hot frozen water, yeast alcohol tolerance (Dave Burley)
  Natural Gas vs. Propane ("Mark Prior")
  California State Fair Competition (Robert Arguello)
  alcohol and beer port ("Bryan L. Gros")
  Ludwig's Garten:  A review of Philly's new Bavarian Pub ("Spinelli, Mike")
  German Beer Recipe wanted ("NFGS")
  Hot Water, Cold Water, Gimme a brew. (Rod Prather)
  Autolysis ("Gregg A. Howard")
  calculating extraction efficiency of specialty grains and adjuncts (Drew Buscareno)
  finding a brew kettle (to make 5 gals) (Pogo1113)
  Used stuff... (pbabcock)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:52:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Homebrew Digest <hbd at brew.oeonline.com>
Subject: MCAB results (fwd)


Forwarded from Louis Bonham:

In haste (I'm pretty shagged at present):

The first MCAB is now in the can, and a great time was had by all.

Here're the results:

Pre-Prohibition Lager

1st Thomas Plunkard (Ann Arbor Brewers Guild)
2d Jim Youngmeyer (Foam Rangers)
3d Randy Erickson (Stanislaus Hoppy Cappers)

Munich Helles

1st Thomas Plunkard (Ann Arbor Brewers Guild)
2d Jim Layton (North Texas Home Brewers Assc.)
3d George Fix (Texas Brewers Association)

American Wheat

1st Scott Beard
2d Thomas Plunkard (Ann Arbor Brewers Guild)
3d Ed Bielaus (BURP)

Ordinary Bitter

1st Jean-Sebastien Morisset/Melanie Vallee
2d Michael Lentz (Central Florida Home Brewers)
3d [not awarded]

Scottish Export 80

1st Mike Hahn (ZZ Hops)
2d Paul Wright (H.O.M.E. Brewers)
3d Joe Formanek (BUZZ [Illinois])

American Pale Ale

1st John Childs
2d Dan Hagewiesche (H.O.M.E. Brewers)
3d Richard McKee (Brew Angels)

India Pale Ale

1st Brad Johnson (Berkshire Headhunters)
2d Mike Riddle (H.O.M.E. Brewers)
3d Ross Hastings (Edmonton Homebrewers Guild)

Dusseldorfer Altbier

1st Charlie Burns (H.A.Z.E.) [WC]
2d Dave Houseman & Chuck Hanning (BUZZ)
3d John Tyler (CABAL)

Oktoberfest/Maerzen

1st Dave Cato (Foam Rangers)
2d Mike Riddle & Mash Club (H.O.M.E. Brewers)
3d Robert Johnson

American Brown

1st     Robert Acosta & Pete Rodriguez (Lagerythmics)
2d Joel Plutchak (BUZZ [Illinois])
3d Dan Hagewiesche(H.O.M.E. Brewers)

Barleywine

1st     Steve Capo & Charles Vallhonrat (Foam Rangers)
2d Andy Anderson (BURP)
3d Bill Clark and Steve Olsen (Northern Ale Stars)

Munich Dunkel

1st Ben Jankowski (Bonwit Brewery)
2d Joe Formanek (BUZZ [Illinois])
3d Tom Miklinevich & John Watson
    (Underground Brewers Club of CT)

Doppelbock

1st Chuck Holshouser (Homebrewers of Puget Sound)
2d Susan Ruud (Prarie Homebrewing Companions)
3d Jim Wagner (Chesapeake Real Ale Brewers Society)

Robust Porter

1st Mike Porter (Kansas City Bier Meisters)
2d John Varady (Keystone Hops)
3d Ron Thomas (Capitol Brewers)

Dry Stout

1st Andy Anderson (BURP)
2d Phil Endacott (Foam Rangers)
3d Mike Riddle (H.O.M.E. Brewers)

Bavarian Weizen

1st George De Piro (MBAS)
2d Dave Cato (Foam Rangers)
3d Jim Armstrong (Bay Area Mashers)

Tripel

1st Al Folsom (BURP)
2d Greg Griffin (BURP/Bay Area Mashers)
3d Mike Riddle (H.O.M.E. Brewers)

Lambic

1st Francois Espourteille (South Shore Brew Club)
2d Scott Bickham (Los Alamos Atom Mashers)
3d Steve Piatz (Minnesota Home Brewers Association)

Best of Show Finalists:

Thomas Plunkard (Pre-Pro)
Jean-Sebastien Morisset/Melanie Vallee (Ordinary Bitter)
John Childs (APA)
Brad Johnson (IPA)
Steve Capo & Charles Vallhonrat (Barleywine)
Chuck Holshouser (Doppelbock)
Mike Porter (Robust Porter)

Best of Show judges for the final round:

    Dan Hall    (BJCP Grandmaster)
    Scott Birdwell (BJCP Master)
    Dave Miller (BJCP Master)

BEST OF SHOW --- John Childs (APA) - Lynnwood, WA

I'll write more . . . after I recover from this weekend!!!

LKB



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Date: 11 Feb 1999 08:33:33 -0500
From: Jason.Gorman at steelcase.com
Subject: yeast


Does anyone know if La Trappe Trappist Ales are bottle conditioned with the
original yeast or if a different strain is thrown in at bottling?


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:42:42 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Boiling

Gordon Strong asked about decarbonation by boiling. There isn't much to
it. Just boil the water or heat it to something less than boiling and
aerate. If you boil you don't need to aerate. The aeration is only
needed to sweep out the carbon dioxide released by the reaction. Steam
will do this just as well as air. Contrary to what you may have seen
published oxygen is not required.

You can stop the application of heat shortly after the water turns
cloudy. Let it cool. As the convection currents die down the carbonate
will settle to the bottom. Allow it cool to the point where you can
handly it comfortably - this should be enough time for the carbonate to
settle completely. Overnight is OK thoughyou don't want to let it stand
too long as it will take up CO2 from the air and redissolve some of the
chalk. In a reasonable volume we're talking days here.

Gordon's numbers look a little fishy. 333 ppm calcium as the ion amounts
to 50*333/20 = 832 ppm hardness and 83 ppm magnesium to 50*83/12.15 =
341. Absent separate values for calcium and magnesium hardness assume
that 60% comes from calcium and 40 from magnesium. Thus the estimated
(from 334 ppm as CaCO3 total hardness) calcium hardness is 0.6*334 = 200
ppm. This corresponds to 20*200/50 = 80 mg/L calcium. The magnesium
hardness would then be 134 ppm as CaCO3 which corresponds to
12.15*134/50 = 32.6 mg/L of the ion.



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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:17:38 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Hot stir plates

Brewsters:

Phil WIlcox asks about timers so he can repeatedly turn his stirrer
on and off and avoid overheating his starter.

Just suspend the starter bottle above the plate so there is no
direct contact.  Even better, place a thin board or piece of
cardboard on the stirrer to direct any warm air and infra-red
from the plate surface away from the bottom of the suspended
bottle.

Even putting insulation on the stirrer and setting the starter directly
on it as George De Piro suggests will not work long term
since the insulation will heat up. Unless the insulation is thick
enough that the heat loss from the starter bottle is greater than
the rate of heat transfer through the insulation, the starter will
still warm up. As George points out the thicker the insulation,
the more difficult it is to get reliable stirrer action

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley

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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:04:29 -0800
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: CO2 Regulator question

Nathan asks about is regulator,

>manifold and vent the keg.  When I did this, I heard a hissing sound.  I
>traced that sound to the regulator.  It seemed that every time I closed
the
>manifold and vented the keg, I would get CO2 coming out of a hole in the
>regulator.  The hole is next to the screw that is used to adjust the
>pressure.  I assume that this hole functions as a "relief valve" on the
>regulator.  Well, if I covered the hole when the gas began to escape, the
>gauge on the regulator would begin to rise and would continue to rise
until
>I allowed the pressure to vent out of the regulator.  What is going on?
Is
>my regulator in need of replacement?

Ah, the old self venting regulator.  Actually it's probably ok.  You're
probably using a regulator that is about 1-1.5" in diameter with a locking
ring around the adjustment knob.  You can get them from mail order tool
places.

Try this.  Close all your keg valves.  Crank the pressure up to say 30 psi.
Then adjust it back to your normal 5 psi.  You should hear the gas venting
then too.  As long as the gas does not continuously vent you're ok.  It's
not so much a safety feature as it is a way to be able to adjust the line
pressure when a static condition exists, although it does provide a way
to vent the line if excess pressure develops on the load side.

I have a similar manifold I built.  Except I used a regulator for each
leg of the manifold.  I can adjust each keg pressure to a different level.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:23:01 -0800
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: Stir plates that are too hot

George responded to Phill,

>My solution to the overheating was putting
>a piece of insulation between the stir plate and the
>yeast jar.

I make my own stir plate.  I used a muffin fan (you can
find then at electronics supply places) that ran on
DC (not AC).  I glued some magnets in the center of the
rotating part of the blades (actually I just stuck them
there because my fan is metal, use glue for plastic
fans).  I built a wooden box (you can used whatever
material you have or are comfortable working with).  Make
sure the magnets are just below the surface of the box
so the magnet doesn't hit the bottom of your container.

You can make stirrers by using nails inside of a piece
of tubing (I used teflon) and sealing the ends with
heat (lighter, torch, burner) from a flame source.

The stir speed is controlled two ways.  Vary the DC
voltage to the motor and using various length stir bars.
Shorter bars result is a less vigorous stir.  I
experimented with bar length using water, but a sugar
solution might be better.

It's cheap (free for me, I had everything in my collection
of junk, er stuff.  Yeah my stuff), easy, works well
and won't heat your starter.  I suppose I should take some
photos of that too.  I really need a digital camera.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:59:47 -0500
From: "Swintosky, Michael D." <Swintosk at timken.com>
Subject: RE: Math challenge, Max Heat Transfer.


The difficulty in solving for an EXACT solution arises out of the fact that
the surface area on the inside of the tubing is different than that on the
outside.  Why not try a reasonable approximation to simplify the equation?
Heat transfer across flat plates is much easier to solve.  I think it is
fairly obvious that the actual heat transfer in the tube should be greater
than the solution you would get assuming flat plates with an area equal to
that on the inside tube surface.  The same logic holds that the opposite
would be true using an area equal to that on the outside tube surface.  The
EXACT solution must therefore use an estimated area somewhere between that
of the inside and outside tube areas.  I would try using an area equal to
the imaginary surface at 1/3 the distance between the inside and the outside
of the tube (i.e. at a point closer to the inside).  Hopefully that might
give an answer within 10-20% of the EXACT solution.     

Mike


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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:16:54 PST
From: "silent bob" <holdenmcneil at hotmail.com>
Subject: Precipitating Bicarbonates

Hello All!!

Gordon asks many questions about the precipitation of bicarbonates 
through boiling.  I would say that no one knows the answers to all of 
these questions, and that any water treated in this manner must be 
re-tested in order to determine the final product.

You can maybe assume that all TEMPORARY hardness would be removed in a 
vigorous, well aerated boil, but where is the end point??  And, probably 
most importantly, what is the residual alkalinity??  Who knows.  You are 
probably better off diluting to your desired Ca++ concenteration with 
distilled H2O, and then treating back anything that then be deficient.  
By limiting your treatment to only the most important ions (especially 
for style) you can keep the math in the realm of simple algebra, and 
know your final alkalinity.  

This is why I can't understand why people suggest boiling to remove 
hardness.

Good luck!!

Adam

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:00:55 EST
From: VQuante at aol.com
Subject: horsy taste - or... ???

in hbd 2950 "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com> wrote:

 >    Dave Houseman writes about the smell of Brettanomyces yeast (typically 
 >    prominent in Lambic beers and older bottles of Orval, amongst others). 
 >    He likens the aroma to that of a horse.
 >    
 >    A while back a friend of mine (who rides horses, lived in Belgium and 
 >    brews) ranted to me about how Brettanomyces does not smell like horses 
 >    in the least bit.  With this in my mind, I have since paid attention 
 >    to the smell of horses whenever I have met them.  My friend is indeed 
 >    correct:  horses do not smell like any beer I have ever had.  Not even 
 >    close.

Well, George, but how would you finally describe the taste and smell of the
Belgian Brigand, if not "horsy" ??? Maybe there is another technical term, but
which ??? Perhaps Belgian horses smell different ??? :-)

Volker R. Quante
Brunnenbraeu Homebrewery

Brewing and working in Warsaw / Poland, but definitely a German Homebrewer


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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:42:04 -0600
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: re: beer bullets...

     >From: ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO <skotrat at wwa.com>
     >Subject: Re: beer bullets

     Scott asks:

     >Are there any other brewers out there that are getting positive
     >responses from their spouses. I wonder sometimes, so I just have to
     >ask.

     My wife tolerates my brewing.  She seldom drinks my beer, but she
     likes to share it with the neighbors and brag that I made it.
     Occasionally I'll make a lighter style of beer that she favors, but
     then she usually goes and gets pregnant and stops drinking before it
     gets bottled.  Well you don't have to do that too many times to get a
     clue {4 kids and counting... ;) }  I think the main thing going for me
     is that all her friends husbands have expensive hobbies that are
     usually done alone and away from home.  Homebrewing keeps me at home,
     costs relatively little, and minimizes the need for her to buy me
     expensive craft-brewed beer at the market.  And on top of everything,
     she never would have gotten her fancy new side x side
     refrigerator/freezer with ice and water dispenser if not for my need
     for a lagering "cellar"... or at least it would have cost her a
     lifetime supply of the female equivalent of beer bullets!

     Cheers!

     Lou - Austin, TX


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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:39:01 EST
From: RMerid7682 at aol.com
Subject: CO2 gauge

Hello all

Nathan asked about a problem with his CO2 gauge. Just from the description, it
sounds like a bad diaphragm. If that's the case, it can be repaired. Not a job
for us at home, though. I suggest taking it to the local welding supply shop
and talking to them. Tell them what it's doing and be sure to get prices on
repair. Might not be cost effective to have it repaired. Might be close to
same price as a new one. I'll also mention that the shop I use says they can't
get parts for a corny brand gauge. 

Roger Meridith
Decatur IL


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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:46:30 +0800
From: "Morris, Luke L." <Luke.Morris at woodside.com.au>
Subject: Priming with wort

Brewers,

I am looking at a way to use unfermented wort to prime my beer bottles.  I
have done a search of the HBD Archives but cannot find anything which
specifically addresses my question.  Maybe there is a Chemist or Chemical
Engineer or other Brainy Person out there who can help me....

Currently I am priming using a weighed quantity of dextrose calculated to
add a certain number of "volumes" of CO2 to the beer (in addition to that
already in solution) as described in an article I found on Dave Draper's
homepage.  

While making each beer, as I transfer from the boil kettle to the fermenter
I am left with about 1.5 litres of wort unrecoverable in the hot break and
hops.  I have found I can strain this out and sterilise and bottle it.  I
have been using this sterile wort for yeast starters.

Can I use this sterile wort to prime my beer for bottling ?  The simple
answer is obviously "yes", but I'm looking for a slightly more
science-backed approach.

My current weighed-dextrose method (ref. Dave Draper) has me estimating the
current dissolved CO2 content of the beer (based on saturation at current
temperature or highest temperature since fermentation ceased), and adding
the required amount of dextrose which will ferment out to give the desired
volumes of CO2.

Since I know the OG and FG of my beer by now, I can assume that my sample of
sterile wort will show the same response when fermented by the same yeast,
right ?  So there must be a way of calculating the amount of fermentables in
a given volume of sterile wort (for that yeast).  Can I use this information
to determine how much sterile wort I need to add to a quantity of beer to
supply the required fermentables to reach a target carbonation ?  Or do I
need to know more about exactly what type of fermentables I have in my wort
?

Any help on this would be appreciated.

Regards,

Luke Morris
Brewing in Perth, Western Australia.



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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:09:42 -0500
From: "Ludwig's" <dludwig at us.hsanet.net>
Subject: Re: Math Challenge,Max Heat Transfer, DS1820

Andrew Nix says in HBD 2951:
> At this point, I will stop.  As you can see, this is NOT an easily explained
> equation.  As a heat transfer engineer, I know several valid assumptions to
> make, but they would be too difficult to explain.  This type of thing is
> best done empirically with water, then corrections can be made for varying
> specific heat of the wort.  Look at any fluid heat transfer text, or even a
> good thermodynamics book.  The equations you've listed are over simplified.
> 

Andrew is right. This is not a simple solution. A few years ago I worked
on this problem for application to what I call a coil-in-vessel heat
exchanger(immersion chiller). Now, by way of a disclaimer, I'm a
mechanical engineer but don't do heat transfer problems on a daily
basis. When I was designing my immersion chiller, I decided to do a
rigorous solution to the heat transfer problem and ended up writing a
program (in C) for the solution. Unfortunately, I was not able to get
the program to run since my programming skills are a little shaky (self
taught C programmer). The solution, if you do it my way, involves a
number of imbedded iterations that if you had to do them by hand, would
take enough time to solidly land you in divorce court(or dog house
heaven). I once took a course in advanced thermo and we had a sadistic
professor who forced us to design a solar powered steam generator by
hand (er, with calculators of course, such as they were in 1978). If
you've ever been subjected to something like this, you'll know what I
mean. Bottom line is, I think I have a good solution but it needs
verification and tweeking. The program is also pretty much worthless
until I get it to run. But if anyone has a something that works now, by
all means share it with us. Let me also caveat all this by saying that
you can make decent heat exchangers without doing all the math.
God, I love this hobby!
By the way, has anyone out there fooled around with DS1820's? 

Dave Ludwig
Flat Iron Brewery
SO MD


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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:43:30 +0800
From: "Morris, Luke L." <Luke.Morris at woodside.com.au>
Subject: Kegs without CO2 bottle & using accumulators

Rod Prather in HBD#2948 suggested using a big bank of kegs to increase the
"headspace" of CO2 and allow beer dispensing without a CO2 bottle.  He then
also suggested the use of an accumulator complete with rubber bladder,
although it would be more complex etc.  In HBD#2950 there was some general
discussion of accumulators.

An accumulator is unnecessary - it is designed to store a liquid under
pressure, and is unnecessary for gas.   

Liquids have such low compressibility that they are generally considered to
be "incompressible".  Therefore if you have a system that requires liquid
delivery between 50 and 100 psi then the usable volume *if the pressure
vessel was 100% filled with liquid* would be essentially nothing.  ie.
almost no liquid would come out of the pressure vessel as the valve was
opened and pressure dropped from 100psi to 50 psi.  

If, however, your pressure vessel was charged with a gas, then pumping
liquid into the vessel would compress the gas, storing energy.  Gases are
highly compressible, so as we draw liquid out of the same pressure vessel
*which was pre-charged with gas and so is maybe only 50% full of liquid*, we
get a significant volume of liquid back as the pressure drops from 100psi to
50psi, since the gas expands.  ie. practical usable volume in required
pressure range.

As brewers, we can all see the problem with this - the mixing of the liquid
and gas is undesirable, since the gas will go into solution in the liquid,
causing problems in your hydraulic system or whatever.  Hence the inclusion
of a rubber bladder to separate the liquid from the gas.

Since our problem began with a way of looking to store CO2 gas under
pressure, not a liquid, then the rubber bladder is unnecessary.  Just fill
the whole pressure vessel up with the gas you want to use.  The bigger the
storage volume, the more constant the pressure will be as the beer is
dispensed.

Having said that, someone suggested in HBD#2950 using an accumulator to have
a CO2 reservoir, and pumping air onto the other side of the bladder to
maintain a constant pressure.  That's innovative, and it should work.  I
like that idea.  For the price of a suitable-sized accumulator with a good
bladder and all that, though, I think it would be cheaper to get a CO2
bottle.

If you already knew what an accumulator was and how/why it is used, then
sorry to waste your time.

Regards,

Luke Morris
Brewing (and working with accumulators) in Perth, Western Australia.



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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:31:52 +1000
From: hoshido at gman.rme.sony.co.jp (Mutsuo Hoshido)
Subject: Sake brewery experience,additional info.=?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCISEbKEo=?=

Mr.M Matsubara is the president and brewmaster of
Matsuo sake brewing company at present.

Until four years ago,he had been using a so called registered
brewmaster. Suddenly the brewmaster left the brewery because
of his age,he was over 70 years old already. He was too old to
do heavy sake brewing job in the primitive old fashioned plant.
He had to carry steam cooked rice by his hands,as we did
last Sunday just for our experience.
Mr.Matsubara asked the consevative brewmaster organization
to send a new brewmaster and tried to hire new brewmaster
but in vain.
He had already ordered sake rice to a rice vender for that winter.
He decided to brew sake by himself under the theoretical and
technical support by MITI(Ministry of International Trade
and Industry) branch lab. which  locates close to his
plant although sake plant has been under the strict control of
tax office (Ministry of Finance).

He owns sake plant but he had no brewing experience and technique.
After a heavy work and struggle with rice,fortunately he was
successful to produce marketable Sake under his company brand.

Last year he could get gold medal at the sake tasting competition
held by tax office.

Conventional sake brewers are very closed minded. But he is
very open minded and he explained and showed us every thing
in his plant and what he got from the MITI Lab.

He strictly controls the rice washing time and soaking time together
within 30min. He changes the time depending on the different
brand of sake rices.
His steam cooked rice is not sticky. Each rice is easily separable.
rather very dry. He produces very beautiful and separated
Kome-koji. This is my most surprising thing.
Because according to  my koji recipe I did washing and soaking
at least 5 hours.
On Feb.11,I traced his procedure using 2kg of general eating
rice. I am waiting for the better result.

end




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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:27:10 +0000
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at azcc.arizona.edu>
Subject: and your point is...?


> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:45:00 -0600
> From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
> Subject: The Jethro Gump Report...part 1.
> 
>		 The Jethro Gump Report
>	 The recent discussion on ethanol levels in beer has prompted me to copy
>	 the discussion portion of the Magnus, Casey, Ingledew paper on High
> Gravity brewing for the HBD.....This is done purely for educational
> purposes only, and I hope that it stimulates you to seek out the entire
> paper, and that it satisfies many of the questions that it has for me....

These folks have published many other papers including the CRC review.  I
can make beer with ergesterol and tween 80 at 20% ethanol.  But what is the
point you are trying to make?  

BTW can anyone give me input on water in Connecticut, particularly the
Madison county region?  Life just got way colder.

Jim




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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:35:14 -0500
From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: HSA documentation

Does anyone have pofessional brewing literature citations for the existence
of HSA? I am in an ongoing debate wth the editor of BYO magazine re: HSA
(he denies that it exists, primarily because O2 does not readily dissolve
in hot wort), and I would like to be able to send him research citations
re: HSA; unfortunately,  I do not have access to any professional brewing
literature.

Thanks,
Dan Cole
Star City Brewers Guild
www.hbd.org/starcity/
Roanoke, VA




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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 03:53:54 PST
From: "silent bob" <holdenmcneil at hotmail.com>
Subject: CaCl2 and other salts

Hello to the Collective!!!

There was a recent discussion of a frequently revisisted topic:  The 
hygroscopic nature of CaCl2.  The best way to make all of your salt 
additions more accurate is to use stock solutions of the salt instead of 
dry salt.  MgSO4 is alos very hygroscopic, and all salt additions are 
usually so small that our scales can't measure them accurately.  The 
soulution (no pun intended) to this problem is to make a large quantity 
of a relatively strong stock solution, and then measure in milliliters.  
For the CaCl2 example, one would put 100gm of CaCl2 in a gradutated 
cylinder, and fill to a liter with water.  Now you have a solution that 
is 0.1 gm per cc.  It is accurate and easy to measure small amounts.  
Such solutions can usually be purchased from scientific supply 
companies.  The other advantage is that you almost never open your dry 
salt containers, minimizing H2O pickup.

Happy Brewing!

Adam

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:12:23 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: CaCl2/EtOH

WRT to Al's comments on CaCl to wit
>Anhydrous, given time, will
>attract water from the atmosphere and make dihydrate, which will >then
continue to attract water and make hexahydrate...

While this is essentially true, the key phrase is "given time". The CRC
handbook lists the anhydride and the hexahydrate as "deliquescent". The
dihydrate is not so marked. Thus while bits of the anhydride and
hexahydrate will attract water very quickly, you have more, but not a
whole lot more, time with the dihydrate. Many salts pick up water from
the air to the extent that in any precise work they are dried at about
102C before weighing out.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

This isn't intended as a "my yeast are bigger than yours" comment but my
record for ethanol production is 16.8% v/v by the Wyeast Pasteur
Champagne strain (in a cyser).



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Date: 12 Feb 1999 09:02:30 -0500
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Yeast and Sugar


HBD-

Matthew Comstock asks about a library to document yeast experiences.  Good
idea.  In my unreferenced experience, I routinely only use a primary unless
it's a fruit beer, or a lager.  I've had finished beer in the primary for
weeks before bottling.  No autolysis.  I've used dry yeasts, Wyeasts, yeasts
cultured from bottles.  The only time I've ever experienced autolysis is with
my yeast bank:  I store yeast under sterile water and glycol, usually about a
1.020 solution, in the fridge.  Sometimes, when I open the yeast bottle, I get
the rubber meat odor.  I still use the yeast for starters.  If we do get a
"Yeast' Life Experiences" library going, it would be a good resource, and I'll
help.

Paul Haaf wants a recipe for making candi sugar.  I'll share mine:

Ingredients
1 trip to the grocery store.
1 purchase of cane or beet sugar.
1 return home.

Procedure
Scoop it out of the bag.
Susbstitute cane or beet sugar for light candi sugar in any recipe at the
ratio of 1:1.

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewry
Kentwood MI


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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 07:55:09 -0800
From: Domenick Venezia <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Of course hot water freezes faster - NOT!


PUH-LEEZ!  I'm nearly speechless ..., but not quite.

Armin Ulrich <ajulrich at telusplanet.net> says,
>The main reason that hot water freezes faster is that the water molecules
>in the hot water are in a higher energy state (buzzing about faster) and
>that activity state has a flywheel effect as the water cools down, And
> ... <snipped, because it's too silly to post again>

Let's see.  I can start with water at 100C or I can start with water at
40C.  If I start with water at 100C, at some point in the cooling the
water will be at 40C.  Since it takes some time to cool from 100C to 40C,
the previously 100C water which is now at 40C has to cool from 40C to 0C
in less time than the water that started at 40C.  Hmmm, two identical
bowls of water at 40C and one has to freeze faster to make up for the time
lost dropping from 100C.  So, Armin, are you saying that the water that
started at 100C has a "memory" and a "will"?!

NOT!

>And for a extra low tech answer a few weeks back I saw video from Finland
>where people threw boiling water into the air where it would freeze
>before it hits the ground (Temp was -60C). Now why would anyone stand
>outside in -60 (which is damn cold for those of you which have not
>experienced it) boil water when you could use cold water.

I did not see this video, but my guess is that starting with boiling water
let them have more set up time for the demonstration.  Keeping fire under
the pot from which they drew water prevented it from freezing in the pot,
and cold water would freeze in the container on the way to the video
camera. 

See, even the Finns know that hot water takes longer to freeze. :-)

Domenick Venezia   
Seattle, WA
demonick at zgi dot com




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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:39:28 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Hot frozen water, yeast alcohol tolerance

Brewsters:

Armin Ulrich's claim that there is some kind of inertia such that
boiling water freezes faster than cold water because it
somehow races past the cold water losing heat faster
 is pure bullsh*t.

No such thing happens.

As I noted before, the momily results from the old days
when uninsulated pipes froze in winter.  Hot water pipes
occasionally froze faster because thay were not used
as often as the cold water, so got colder and froze first.

There is NO well structured experiment which will
demonstrate that hot water freezes faster than cold water
when the two are compared identically.

It is possible for liquid water to exist, at least temporarily,
below the freezing point and not cryststallize and this
could perhaps be thought of in terms of "inertia" in the
English sense of the word.  Such "supercooled" water
has to do with disorder. Scratching or other physical
disurbance will generate nuclei as centers of crystallization
which will bring about crystallization to ice. However,
this has nothing to do with heat loss rate which is a measure
of how fast water will freeze.
- --------------------------------
Rob Moline's partial reproduction of a paper on alcohol
tolerance of yeast was fascinating.  Thanks Rob.

One interesting thing to me was the comment that higher
temperature fermentation reduced the alcohol tolerance
if I read it correctly.  ASBC tests for end of fermentation (EOF) 

use 80F (26C) as the temperature of the test. How will this affect
conclusions of EOF for high gravity beers? Looks like the
test could give an incorrect answer.
- ---------------------------------

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley 


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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:31:31 -0500
From: "Mark Prior" <mprior at spectrumtech.com>
Subject: Natural Gas vs. Propane

I'm considering converting my propane cooker (Superb 35K btu) for use with
natural gas.  Has anyone converted their propane burners to natural gas?
How difficult is it?  Does it impact the overall heating potential?  Is it
easy to swap between the two gas types on demand?  For instance, when I
brew at home, I could use natural gas, but when I brew elsewhere I would
take propane.

Thanks for your insight.

Mark Prior




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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:50:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Subject: California State Fair Competition

PRESS RELEASE:

The Gold Country Brewers Association, (GCBA),  and the 
California State Fair are sponsoring the Seventeenth Annual 
California State Fair Home Brew Competition.

The competition is open to all home brewers of at least 21 years
of age and who are residents of the state of California. 
Beers must be made in the home for private, (non-commercial), use.

Entries must be received between April 1, 1999 and May 15, 1999.
All entries will be kept in cold storage until final judging on June 27,
1999.  Judging will follow the official1998 BJCP style guidelines.  All BJCP
beer  and mead categories will be judged.  The BJCP style guidelines can be
seen at  http://www.bjcp.org/style-guide.html .

Contact Robert Arguello via e-mail (robertac at calweb.com), or telephone,
(530-759-1006), if you would like to receive the official handbook/entry
forms by postal mail.  Deadline to request the handbook is May 31, 1999.
Entry information will also be posted at the GCBA web site, (
http://www.ns.net/~GCBA/ ), in the near future.  This information has not
been posted on the GCBA web site as of this date,  but should be completed
within a few weeks.

Rosettes will be awarded for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place in each category.
Rosette and Golden Bear Trophy will be awarded for the "Best of Show".

Interested judges are invited to register.  E-mail Dave Sapsis at
GCBA at ns.net if you would like to serve as a judge at the competition. 

Best of luck!

Robert Arguello
California State Fair Home Brew Competition Coordinator
Gold Country Brewers Association
robertac at calweb.com
(530) 759-1006



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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:56:45 -0800
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com>
Subject: alcohol and beer port

Some discussion lately about how high an alcohol level
yeast can tolerate. I don't know. I do know that a lot of
zinfandel coming out these days is in the 15-16% range.

I've been getting into port wine lately, and I was thinking
about beer port. As you know, port is made by the
winery adding grape brandy to the fermenting wine 2 to
3 days after fermentation begins. The result is that the
added alcohol wipes out the yeast, ending fermentation
and thus leaving residual sugar behind.

The beer analogy would be to take a barleywine type
wort, begin fermentation, and then 2 to 3 days later
(maybe longer), add scotch to the fermenter to up
the alcohol and leave the unfermented sugars behind.

I have no idea what this would taste like, and I haven't
really developed a taste for scotch myself, but I'm
intrigued by the idea. I suppose the way to try it is to
pull 3/4 gallon of your next barleywine or old ale brew
and ferment it separately. Then you won't need as much
scotch and you won't have a problem dumping it if
it sucks.

Comments?


Bryan Gros    gros at bigfoot.com
Oakland, CA

Organizer, 1999 National Bay Area Brew Off
http://www.valhallabrewing.com/~thor/dboard/babo99.htm



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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:52:16 -0500
From: "Spinelli, Mike" <paa3983 at exmail.dscp.dla.mil>
Subject: Ludwig's Garten:  A review of Philly's new Bavarian Pub

HBDers,

Had the distinct pleasure to attend the opening of my friend Paul Olivier's
restaurant, Ludwig's Garten.  Center City Philly's one and only Bavarian
restaurant.  Location is 13th and Sansom Sts. (backs up to McGillans Old Ale
house). #  is 215-985-1525.

For starters, his center tap features FIVE Paulaner's, Pils, Fest, Hefe,
Hefe Dunkel and.............SALVATOR!!!!!

Other taps include 2 Victory's, Flying Fish, Yards, and Stoudt's and
hopefully DeGroen's.

And all the tap beers are served in genuine .5L German glassware.

Not only is the beer great but the food is awesome.  You'd swear you were in
Bavaria with level of decor he's got as well.

Too much to describe.  Highly recommend a visit.

Mike Spinelli
Mikey's Monster Brew
Cherry Hill NJ



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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:06:17 -0800
From: "NFGS" <fjrusso at coastalnet.com>
Subject: German Beer Recipe wanted

Greetings All.

I am hoping there is a lurker out there from Germany.  If s, maybe you can
help me.  If not anybody now the address for the Germany version of HBD?
While visiting Germany I gained a new perspective and love of beer.  I was
in Darmstadt for a few days.  Among the many beers 2 that come to mind are
the Darmstadter and a Maerzen and I would sure like to have a clone recipe.
Thanks.

Frank
fjrusso at coastalnet.com




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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:05:06 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Hot Water, Cold Water, Gimme a brew.

I have no idea what hot water freezing faster than cold water has to do with
anything brewing.  Yes, hot water CAN freeze faster.  There are 5 or 6
different theories as to why this happens.  Seems science is not terribly
sure of exactly which phenomena may be at play, perhaps several together.
Although evaporation may play a roll, the most logical to me seems to be
convection.  Cold water will form a skin of ice on top sooner than the hot
water but the hot water freezes solid first.  This implies that the
turbulence of the water caused by the exchange of different temprature
layers increases the heat transfer to the liquid.  The classic experiment
took place in wooden bucket where the wood tended to insulate the lower
water from the cold.    This is one of the best pages I found on the
subject.   Found it the other day and then couldn't duplicate the search
pattern I used.     Now, which one cools faster, hot beer or cold beer.

http://www.weburbia.com/physics/hot_water.html




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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:31:42 -0500
From: "Gregg A. Howard" <ghow at compuserve.com>
Subject: Autolysis

In #2949 Steve asks:  <<Anyone else care to comment on whether they do or

do-not detect flavor problems from keeping beer on yeast beyond 3 weeks 
?>>

Back in HBD#2021 I posted that I had tasted a beer that had been in the
primary for eleven months without any obvious ill effects from autolysis
and wondered if its dangers were oversold in the literature.  No one
reported a batch ruined by autolysis, so I decided to stop racking to a
secondary for most beers.

Since then I've routinely left beer in the primary for four or more weeks

on the sediment until it falls clear enough to keg.  I can detect none of

the off flavors (meaty, sulfury, rancid oil, dead mouse) that Steve
describes, either in the finished beer or in the yeast cake when it's
dumped.  I don't think my experience neccesarily conflicts with George
De Piro's for two reasons.  I use dry yeast and the manufacturing process

must surely select for only extremely durable strains.  And I will freely

admit to having a relatively untrained palate that might be missing a
faint note that George would easily detect.

That said, I've got a question or two.  Does every dead yeast cell 
undergo
autolysis?  If that's the case then then it must be occurring to some
extent in every batch we make since, no matter what the source, no one is

pitching 100% viable yeast.  And how much of the products of autolysis 
are
taken up again by living cells and thus kept out of the finished product?

Maybe some strains are better than others at policing up the remnants of
their dead comrades.

Gregg A. Howard    -   Denver   -   ghow at compuserve.com


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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:18:40 -0500
From: Drew Buscareno <drewbuscareno at skyenet.net>
Subject: calculating extraction efficiency of specialty grains and adjuncts

When calculating extract efficiency, how do you account for specialty
grains and adjunts?  Do you just add the number of oz. and/or lbs. of
these grains with the pale or lager malt into the extraction formula?
For example, I recently brewed a CAP with 7lbs. 2 row lager, 2lbs 6row,
2lbs. flaked maize, and collected 5.75 gallons of 1.056 into my 6.5
gallon carboy.  I calculated the efficiency to be 29.2 pts per lb. by
using this formula (5.75)(56)/11.

Private e-mails are fine.

Drew Buscareno



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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:20:33 EST
From: Pogo1113 at aol.com
Subject: finding a brew kettle (to make 5 gals)

   I am a begginer,but would like to start out using a full wort boil.I was
looking for a place to find a used kettle ,or good prices on new ones.I have
also heard that using aluminum kettles is not recommended?If this is true,why?
                                     thanks
                                        Rodney


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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:01:59 -0500 (EST)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: Used stuff...



On Fri, 12 Feb 1999 pogo1113 at aol.com wrote:
>    I am a begginer,but would like to start out using a full wort boil.I was
> looking for a place to find a used kettle ,or good prices on new ones.I have

Used brewing equipment can be found on the Home Brew Flea Market
(http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/4sale.html)

> also heard that using aluminum kettles is not recommended?If this is true,why?

If you use the kettle solely for brewing, absolutely no worries. It will
wear out faster than most stainless kettles, but there is little else to
be concerned about. If you are using the same pot for hihgly flavored
foods or fatty foods, you might pick up some of those flavors in your wort
as it is said that Aluminum pots pick up and hold these more readily. In
my experience, it simply doesn't matter. Unntil my pico system was
purcahsed, I brewed in aluminum pots or so long I've forgotten! (No humor
intended)  These same pots were used for other culinary pursuits as well,
and I don't recall ever tastring any spaghetti in my pilsner.

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."




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---