---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  DMS flavor in Munich Dunkel (Steven Gibbs)
  Steam Injected RIMS update ("William W. Macher")
  Firkins yeast (David Cato)
  Re: Chitosan? ("Robert J. Waddell")
  Dispensing Pressure (Kyle Druey)
  formulas for alcohol determination (ensmingr)
  100 Gallon Limit (Rod Prather)
  Re: IBU standard... (Steve Jackson)
  Local HB R.I.P. ("ajphoto")
  Westvleteren Yeast / Bulk Buy (John Varady)
  Re: backdoor dealings (Joel Plutchak)
  Homebrew & Longevity (Eddie Kent)
  CST problems ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Cleaning Carboys ("Nix, Andrew")
  scrubbys (Bryan Gros)
  Extract CAP Recipes ("RANDY ERICKSON")
  Split Session Brewing (Ted McIrvine)
  New Orleans ("RANDY ERICKSON")
  never done a mead or a pLambic for that matter... (jim williams)
  crush (Alan Edwards)
  Re: Where to get 6oz bottles for barleywine (Rick Raver)
  Response to interesting Wheat beer questions ("George De Piro")
  Subject: 100 Gallon limit broken! dont do it (WayneM38)
  Dutch Oud Bruin (Gary H Nazelrod)
  Purging with steam... ("William W. Macher")
  Barleywine bottles (Stephen Klump)
  RE: Split session brewing (John Wilkinson)
  Split Session Brewing (PRS) - CPC" <PRS at NA2.US.ML.COM>


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild's 13th annual Big and Huge - 28
March 1999:  Rules and forms at www.globaldialog.com/madbrewers
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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:22:35 -0800
From: Steven Gibbs <gibbs at lightspeed.net>
Subject: DMS flavor in Munich Dunkel 

Dear Collective:
I recently brewed a Munich Lager with about 60% Munich malt, 35%
Weyerman German Pils, and the balance in Carapils, Choc., Belg. bisq.,
and a touch of crystal. I used a single decoction mash with temps. at
140', 150' and mash out at 163'. Used a Wyeast Munich liq. yeast starter
of approx. 2 liters and fermented at 48' for 12 days, bumped to 58' for
4 day diacetyl rest and racked to 2ndary at 38' for 2 weeks. Now with
that background, here's my problem: I tasted the beer and it absolutely
reeks of DMS/cooked corn/cabbage.

I have never had this sort of problem with one of my lagers, and
especially a dark lager. my RSH seems to point to a malt problem as this
is the place where the offending compounds are derived, but with my 90
min. uncovered hard boils, use of a 30 ft. immersion chiller and
computer controlled fermentation temp. I thought I had all the corners
figured out. The only interesting change from other recipes is that I
cultured up the yeast from three 1 1/2 year old smack packs which where
pitched after they swelled. Somebody out there must have had this
problem, and then maybe a long lagering will cure the problem.
Happy Brewing
Steve Gibbs



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Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 15:59:10
From: "William W. Macher" <macher at telerama.lm.com>
Subject: Steam Injected RIMS update


Hi all,

Well things have progressed to the point where I have 
actually done a test of my steam-injected rims setup,  using 
8 gallons of water.  As set up currently,  I was able to get a 
little over 2 degrees F. temperature rise as measured by the 
thermometer on the inlet side of the steam injector.

I will follow this posting sometime in the future with more 
details.  But here are a couple initial observations...

The heat chamber when using steam can be small!  I got 
ahead of myself as I was fabricating this thing, and 
although I planned on making the injection chamber out of 
3/4 inch copper tubing,  I got wrapped up in my work and 
had fabricated it from half-inch copper (same size as most 
of the plumbing) before I remembered my original 
intention.

The steam injection line comes in the top of a tee (through 
a compression fitting) and runs down inside the tee and an 
inch or so into the line coming up from the pump.  Just 
after the injection point the wort takes an immediate right 
turn out of the tee,  and this provides a  high turbulence 
point for good mixing of the wort for even temperature (not 
sure if required,  but it can't hurt...) Since this stuff was 
already soldered in place,  I left it as is and the  initial tests 
indicate that it will work fine. 

Heat input is independent of flow rate in the recirculation 
line,  just as is the case with an electric heating element.  
However,  the scorching concern is not there,  because the 
temperature of the steam is about 227 degrees F.,  and this 
is the maximum that the wort in the recirculation line can 
be raised to, even if flow is stopped.  During the initial test 
I was able to measure 30 or 40 degrees F. rise across the 
injection point by slowing the flow rate considerably.  I get 
about 227 degree F. steam because there is about 5 pounds 
of back pressure in the line/injector path at my highest flow 
rate.

The sound of the steam condensing in the recirculation line 
is a little noisy,  and I wonder if a larger diameter injection 
chamber might deaden the noise a little.  Not unbearable or 
anything,  but certainly louder than the silence of 
electricity.

Raising 8 gallons of water 2 degrees F. in one minute 
calculates out to heat input of about 2,300 watts:

8 gal. X 8.345 lb/gal X 2 deg. F. / 1 min. = 133.53 BTU/min

>From my table of conversion factors,

1 BTU/min = 17.57 Watt/min

133.53 BTU/min = 133.53 x 17.57 W/min = 2,346 W/min 

This compares favorably with the 1,500 watts output of a 
6,000 watt electric element running at one-quarter power 
(my understanding this is the norm for an electric rims).  

The wok burner that I am using under my 22-quart pressure 
canner is rather large in diameter and if I turn it too high,  
the flames come out around the bottom and I fear burning 
the handles off!  This limits the amount of steam I am able 
to generate.  I certainly have more capacity in the burner.  I 
am using natural gas as my energy source.  

I need to do further testing.  This test was done with return 
water entering the mash tun from a hose, at an angle and 
probably mixing pretty well.  Using the return manifold 
that I have now fabricated I should be able to ensure that I 
have good mixing of the hot liquid and that I am not 
recirculating only a portion of it (I do not think I was in the 
initial test, but...)

By the way, it is amazing how much time one can spend 
building something like a rims system....polishing all that
copper tubing takes time:-)...as do those important moments of
beer sipping and admiration of one's progress...:-) :-)

Bill










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Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 18:36:43 -0600
From: David Cato <dcato at neosoft.com>
Subject: Firkins yeast

Thanks to the Boston Homebrew Competition, I got a some vials of yeast from
the Saccharomyces Supply Company.  One of the vials is labeled "Firkins AB70
English Ale".  Does anyone have any info on this yeast and what I can expect
from it?

- -- 
David Cato
Houston, Texas


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Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 17:58:30 -0700
From: "Robert J. Waddell" <rjw at dimensional.com>
Subject: Re: Chitosan?

Here is a site with info on chitosan.  Looks like it could be used as
a fining.  Sorry, I deleted the HBD that had the name of the person
wanting this info, so I'll put it here in case anyone else is interested.

http://user.chollian.net/~chitin/intro.html

Good Brewin'
Bob

                      I *L*O*V*E* my [Pico] system.  'Cept for that
                      gonging noise it makes when my wife throws it
                      off the bed at night.
                      Women...
                                         --Pat Babcock

              It's never too late to have a happy childhood!  
****************************************************************
RJW at dimensional.com      / Opinions expressed are usually my own but
Robert J. Waddell             / perhaps shared.     ICQ #7136012
Owner & Brewmaster: Barchenspeider Brew-Haus   Longmont, Colorado
****************************************************************
                    (4,592 feet higher than Jeff Renner)


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Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 20:15:51 -0800
From: Kyle Druey <druey at ibm.net>
Subject: Dispensing Pressure

I had a discussion recently with a local beer distributor
regarding dispensing beer from faucets/taps.  He said that
he typically plumbs a beer dispensing line with 3/8"
inside diameter tubing (no friction losses).  For the last
5' to the faucet he uses 3/16" diameter beverage line with
a dispensing pressure at 12 psi.  Something interesting he
mentioned, Miller and Bud are dispensed at 12 psi and need
5' of 3/16" tubing, but Coors is dispensed at 14 psi and
needs 6' of 3/16" tubing.
 
News flash from the Midwest:  I just saw a preview in Fred Garvin's
kraft korner for the Fred Garvin Productions Manufacturing Company
Adjustable Roller Malt Mill which sports the following features:

 -accomodates any gap spacing
 -variable speed drive to suit your own cranking speed
 -continuous duty for those all night sessions
 -self lubricating assembly
 -easy clean up
 -KY dispenser option	  


Kyle

Dispensing better beer in Bakersfield, CA,
West Coast branch of the Fred Garvin Institure for Yocto Zymurgical
Studies


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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 00:22:02 -0500
From: ensmingr at npac.syr.edu
Subject: formulas for alcohol determination

AJ made an interesting post in the March 8 HBD 2972 [
http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/2972.html#2972-12 ] on the "Accuracy of
Formulas" for determining the alcohol level of beer, which I've just
read because of being out'a town.

However, I must mention a few points.
1. AJ attributes formula "a" (ABV = [OG-FG]/0.75) from my post@ HBD
2968 [ http://hbd.org/hbd/archive/2968.html#2968-16 ] to me. But, as
mentioned in this post, the equation comes from Dave Miller (The
Complete Handbook of Home Brewing, 1988, page 150). I assume Miller got
it from another source, but he doesn't give a reference.

2. The Balling method AJ gives in HBD 2969 [
http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/2969.html#2969-5 ] appears to differ from
the Balling method given by George Fix several years ago in HBD 880 [
http://www.hbd.org/hbd/archive/880.html#880-9 ]:
ABW = [P(initial) - RE]/[2.0665 - 0.010665*P(initial)]

3. I compared the Balling method given by G. Fix in HBD 880; the Balling
method given by AJ in HBD 2969; and Miller's method given by me in HBD
2968 by using AJ's "typical" beer which was OG 1.050 and FG 1.012. All
SG-Plato conversions were according to the ACBC MOA Table 1:

Balling method #1 (Fix, HBD 880)
RE=0.1808*P(initial)+0.8192*P(initial)=0.1808*12.39+0.8192*3.067=4.752
ABW=[12.39-4.752]/[2.0665-0.010665*12.39]=3.949
ABV=ABW*FG/0.79=3.949*1.012/0.79=5.058%

Balling method #2 (AJ, HBD 2969)
ABV=4.85%

Miller method (Ensminger, HBD 2968)
ABV=(1.050-1.012)/0.75=0.05067=5.067%

I have not seen the original papers with the (apparently contradictory)
Balling equations. Nor have I seen the data used to derive these
equations. Perhaps AJ or someone else with ready access to the brewing
literature could reconcile these discrepancies and enlighten us.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY




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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 06:47:34 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: 100 Gallon Limit

100 gallons is about 40 cases of beer.  Here are three other suggestions for
better utilization of that limit.

1.    Use some of the limit to make Wine,  Higher ABV, lasts longer.

2.    Make a lot of Barley Wine.  Again, higher alcohol, lasts longer

3.    Drink all of the evidence and say you made a lot of Barley Wine.
Kind of like the bag  limit of catching fish.  Once you eat 'em, who's gonna
know.

Besides, has anyone ever had a revenue agent knocking on your door with a
warrant saying you made too much beer last year.    It's not like wine where
you could have a cellar full of wine from previous years.




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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 05:00:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Jackson <stvjackson at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: IBU standard...

In HBD #2979 (March 16, 1999), D.B. Metallo (dbmetallo at wwisp.com) wrote:

>>>
I was wondering - which is considered the IBU "standard" gauge -
Garetz, Rager, or Tinseth?  Who's numbers do the AHA and/or the BJCP
use? I asked a few people in the local club around here and they didn't
seem to know. Thanks.
<<<

The short answer would be, "None of the above." Each formula is simply
an attempt to *estimate* the IBUs in a given beer. Each formula makes
different assumptions about such factors as hop utilization, therefore
they typically come up with different predictions for the same hop bill.

The only way to truly know the true IBU of any beer is to have it
assayed by a laboratory. This is how the commercial breweries do it
(many of them have their own equipment for doing so).

One of the many interesting elements of the HBD Palexperiment that has
been discussed here and is the subject of an article in the current
issue of Brewing Techniques is how far off the prediction formulas
are. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the average IBU of
the 30 or so Palexperiment beers was around 63 or so (give or take).
The various formulas all came up short to various degrees, the closest
being about a dozen points off. Interestingly, one formula you didn't
mention (the one Ray Daniels uses in his book "Designing Great Beers")
came the closest to the actual IBU level.

The approach I've always recommended regarding IBU formulas is this:
Pick one and stick with it. It doesn't matter how accurate or how
inaccurate it is, as long as it allows you to consistently predict the
bitterness of *your* beer. It doesn't really matter if the formula
predicts an IBU of 350 (of course it does in terms of offering
comparisons with other brewers' beers, but I'm making a point here),
as long as you know that 350 yields a certain level of bitterness in
your beer. For instance, I know that 40 IBU from the formula I use
yields appropriate bitterness for a standard pale ale. I have no idea
what the actual IBU level is, but I know that it tastes "right."
That's all you really need an IBU formula for, so that's why I say
pick one and stick with it.

BTW, I believe the AHA/BJCP IBU numbers are based on the actual levels
in commercial beers the various styles are intended to emulate. There
are a few people lurking around here on the style committees for the
organizations, so if I'm wrong, please jump in and correct me.

 -Steve in Indianapolis



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:10:07 -0500
From: "ajphoto" <ajphoto at columbus.rr.com>
Subject: Local HB R.I.P.

Goodale Homebrewing Supply in Columbus, Ohio is passing into oblivion.

    After almost four years of business the owner has decided to call it quits.
Internet sales and the decline in new brewers has made it impossible to
continue.  We have noticed that once a customer becomes comfortable
with partial mashes or all grain brewing they reach a point where they no
longer need the help of the local shop.  They log-on with credit card in
hand and forget all about those who took the time and talked them through
their first brew, just so they can save a few pennies per pound.  It does not
matter to them that it cost money to have someone there when they
needed help, or is there for their convenience.  We know this to be the case
because when they do stop in, they openly brag to each other about
the deals they got at (Local demise .com).

    Gone now is the place where customers used to hang out and discuss
recipes, processes, and equipment.  You know - Brewing!
This local brewshop used to be a place that supported homebrewing, but
without support in return from those it nurtured we all lose.

Goodbye Goodale!




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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:32:52 -0500
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Westvleteren Yeast / Bulk Buy

I received a vial of Westvleteren yeast as a prize from the Saccharomyces
Supply Company in MA. I have never had a beer from this abbey and therefore
have no idea of the profile of the strain. I decided to give it a try and
am using it to ferment 4 gallons of wit (I also pitched 3944 in the other
11 gallons). The starter was up in running in 15 hours and after pitched
the 4 gallons were at krausen after 12 hours. I plan on making a tripel
this weekend and pitching the dregs from the wit. Is this yeast appropriate
for a tripel (or a wit)?

On a side note, For my wit, I was going to pitch some soured beer into the
kettle. I tried to sour some pilsner by adding a few grains of malt, but
AJ's post about making acetic acid instead of lactic acid put me off. So
instead, I decided to sour 2 pints of wort by adding some malt. This seemed
to work ok. The aroma was definitely sour after a few days on my radiator.
I dumped it into the kettle and we'll see how it fares.

- --

If a group of home brewers go the back door route and bulk buy outside of
the shop, the shop owner can rest assured that these brewers will be making
a lot of beer in the future. This means they will need more yeast, more
hops, more bottles, more caps, etc. Where will they bulk buy these items?
Most likely they won't, and they'll be getting them from the local shop
 owner.

One thing a shop owner could do, is to organize the bulk buy. Rather then
being cut out of the loop, start the loop off. Make bi-monthly (or
bi-annual) bulk purchases available to the customers. Require that they
advance order at least 100 lbs and perhaps discount normal prices by
25-30%. This way everybody is happy. The shop owner still makes some profit
and can order more then they could normally stock knowing that it is
already sold. The home brewer gets his malt cheaper and doesn't feel the
need to hunt down the bargain prices at other sources.

Later

John







John Varady The
 HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
Boneyard Brewing Custom Neon
 Beer Signs For Home Brewers
Glenside, PA
 Get More Information At:
rust1d at usa.net
 http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady 



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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:06:20 -0600 (CST)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: backdoor dealings

In HBD #2979, "Robert C. McDonald" <Bob.McDonald at abanet.org> wrote:
>I've been an extract brewer for about 6 years, and apropos the recent 
>thread on homebrew shops (thanks, Pat, I couldn't have written it better 
>myself), I'd like to get away from the high prices, inconvenience and 
>pompous attitude of my (barely) local homebrew shop...

   We've seen a Devil's Advocate argument from the homebrew shop
perspective, so let me weigh in on the side of the Angels, using 
Bob's passage above as a starting point.  (Add emoticon if necessary.)
   In the past 15 years, I've lived in 5 different cities.  One
of those cities (Madison WI) had (has, I assume) a good homebrew
shop.  They got me started brewing, and I bought all my stuff from
them.  When I moved from there, I encountered either no local
shops, or places that were at best as Bob describes above.  Small
selection of badly stored hops, soft grain of indeterminate age
and >100% markup, extract of dubious quality, clerks who either
didn't know brewing or didn't know me so were uninterested in
talking to me (or even pointedly rude in one Rhode Island shop).
   The point is that this is a big continent, and I'd wager that
most of us don't live within an hour's drive of a homebrew shop
worthy of giving our business to.  So what do we do?  Buy from
the middle of the distribution chain, or from breweries.  Keep
our own yeast banks.  Fashion our own hardware.  And support
mailorder shops, which incidentally usually *are* local to somebody,
just not to us (I've got my favorites if anyone wants to email me
for 'em).  If those outlets were to be closed to me, I would simply
brew less often, and drink less beer.  It's not a zero-sum game.
   Needless to say, I weigh in with Pat on this issue.  Shops
have got to cater to their (potential) customers.  If they don't,
they'll go the way of any other business that doesn't offer what
the customer is willing to buy.
- --
Joel "Backdoor Man" Plutchak
<plutchak at uiuc.edu>



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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:28:21 -0600
From: Eddie Kent <ebk1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Homebrew & Longevity

This is something I think all homebrewers could appreciate:

World's Oldest Person?

IKINU, Kenya (Reuters) - A woman in Kenya's Central Province could be
the oldest person in the world, according to her family, who say she is
143. If the family's claims are to be believed, Njoki Wainaina was born
more than 15 years before Livingstone met Stanley. Certainly Njoki, who
lives in a village north of Nairobi, looks as though she could be 143,
with her wizened face and tiny, birdlike frame. She can no longer see,
and can hear only with difficulty, but still manages to command center
stage among her family as she sings songs and recalls scenes from her
life.

Njoki attributes her long life to God. ``Who else could make me live
this long? It is God who has made me live,'' she told Reuters. Her
longevity may have been helped by her simple diet, which includes
bananas, maize, orange squash and HOME-BREWED BEER. And she seems to
have
got away with her weakness for taking snuff.

Italian anthropologist Giovanni Perucci studies aging among Njoki's
ethnic
group, the Kikuyu. He has met her several times and said it was possible
she was 140 or even older. But since she possesses no birth certificate,
Njoki is unlikely ever to be officially recognized as older than Jeanne
Calment of France, who died last year at 122.

- --
Eddie Kent
Houston, TX

"When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look
like a nail."
 -Maslow




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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:32:48 -0500
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: CST problems

Elijah Daniel asks about his funky problems with his copper scrubby thing

(CST).
There are CSTs on the market that aren't solid copper, they are copper
plated
steel. These variety react the way described, the copper erodes and 
leaves
the
steel exposed for rusting. The only solid copper ones commonly available 
in
supermarkets are clearly named "ChoreBoy", these have a long lifetime and

are
no more reactive than other copper in your system. (no affiliation or
financial interest yadda yadda...)

N.P. (Del) Lansing,
centrally located light-years to the right of the leftist-pinko-hippie
Hill-Billy administration.

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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:45:24 -0500
From: "Nix, Andrew" <anix at bechtel.com>
Subject: Cleaning Carboys

In the continual effort to improve my brewing process and beer quality, I
again present a rather remedial question to the HBD.  My concern here is
CLEANING carboys, not sanitizing.  To sanitize, I use a weak to mid-strength
BTF Iodophor "tea" and leave it in the carboy with a rubber stopper on top
till I need to use the carboy again.  (If anyone sees a problem with this,
let me know)  I have two carboys at home that had beer left in them for many
several months, and the krausen residue was stuck to the sides for this time
as well.  The carboy brush I have now just doesn't seem to do a good job
(not enough "elbow grease" can be applied).  I do use a jet bottle/carboy
washer, but I still have that feeling that I haven't really gotten it very
clean.  How does everyone out there scrub the inside of their carboys???
What detergents to you use???  Thanks...

Andrew C. Nix
Frederick, MD



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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:14:45 -0800
From: Bryan Gros <bryang at xeaglex.com>
Subject: scrubbys

Elijah Daniel <Elijah.Daniel at digital.com> writes:
>Hi, all.
>I recently put a spigot on my enamel-on-steel brewpot (anyone who's
>interested in details is free to email me directly).  Inside the pot, I have
>a Copper Scrubby Thing (CST) for washing dishes which I attached to the dip
>tube with a hose clamp (stainess steel?) for a filter.  I ran water through
>the system a couple of times, and it worked great.
>So here's my problem: I just noticed that the CST produces nasty orange
>goop.  It seems that when its left sitting around wet, little pieces of
>copper flake off and make this very metallic smelling slime.  ...

Maybe those CSTs aren't 100% copper?

Try a Stainless Scrubby (SSS). Should work better.
What I did was get a small piece of stainless steel screen. Roll about a 
12 inch by 5 inch piece up into a tube and clamp it to your spigot. Makes
a great filter. I think others have termed this filter "easymasher".


*******

Dan Listermann writes:
>When I took up homebrewing again, it was difficult to find interesting,
>inexpensive and most of all, fresh beers in the States.  The micro brew
>revolution has changed all this.  It is now possible to find very
>interesting, inexpensive and, if you are carefull where you buy it, fresh
>beers.

Well, I'm not sure i agree with the inexpensive part.

    - Bryan

Bryan Gros
Oakland CA




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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:26:41 -0800
From: "RANDY ERICKSON" <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: Extract CAP Recipes

After my post on extract/partial mash recipes for CAP last week, I
came across the Zymurgy article on Pre-Prohibition lagers this
week-end.

Someone, Del Lansing as I recall, advocates using two 4# cans
of Premiere Reserve Cream Ale (a hopped canned extract kit,
presumably) along with some noble-type flavor and finishing hops
mid- and end-of-boil.  A good lager yeast is important, and I still
advocate an American strain like 2035.

I am not affiliated with Premiere Reserve, I've never used their
kits, nor have I even seen one (outside of adds in a magazine I
no longer subscribe to).

Randy in Modesto


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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:43:14 -0800
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Split Session Brewing

I have often split my brewing session into two parts as well, but I
usually do this by boiling (or more accurately, simmering at a slow
boil) overnight.  I only do this for darker beers in which I want a
Mailliard reaction (Belgian Dubbel, German Doppelbock, Scotch Ales etc.)
and then top off the water the next morning to a correct volume before
adding finishing hops.

I think that it is possibile for an unboiled wort to pick up some lactic
nasties if left overnight.  Sure, you'll kill the growth potential of
the bugs by boiling them, but the sourness and bugs get a chance to do
their thing in the unboiled wort around 130-140 degrees and boiling
won't remove this.  (The effects might be similar to the sour mash
technique that some brewers use for lambic, wit, and Guinness-style
stout.)

Ted

> From: Greg Remake <gremake at gsbalum.uchicago.edu>
> Subject: Split session brewing
> 
> As I saw suggested in the HBD, I tried splitting my brewing session into
> two parts this weekend, and it was a great success.  Even with a late start
> on Friday night, I still got to bed at a reasonable time after mashing and
> sparging, then boiled the wort and filled the primary on Saturday morning
 ....
> My only question is in regards to the appropriate temperature at which to
> keep the wort overnight.  Are there any problems with letting it sit on the
> stove (like I did), or is there a benefit to cooling it and keeping it
> chilled until the boil?

- -- 
McIrvine at Ix.Netcom.Com
College of Staten Island/CUNY
http://www.csi.cuny.edu/academia/programs/mus.html
http://www.csi.cuny.edu/arts/calendar.html


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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:46:00 -0800
From: "RANDY ERICKSON" <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: New Orleans

Friends in Brewdom:

I've been traveling on business off and on for fifteen years, and SOP
has been in-and-out for a meeting, in-and-out of a factory, etc.  As a
rule the travel has been goal-oriented, without much of a chance
to see the sights.

I was thrilled therefore to find out that I get to go to New Orleans
for a convention next month for a whole week!  I expect to have
a good deal of free time.  I'll be staying downtown on St Charles Av,
not far from the French Quarter.  I would appreciate any thoughts or
information anyone might have on don't-miss beer places.
I will be limited to public transportation.

Thanks,
Randy in Modesto


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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:58:18 -0800
From: jim williams <jim&amy at macol.net>
Subject: never done a mead or a pLambic for that matter...

hi,
so i've never done a mead before. Thinking of doing one. i don't know
much about it, and I want to do it right. I'm more than willing to take
the time it takes etc....

i'm looking for idiot proof directions on making a high quality mead.

i'm also interested in making a plambic in the near future, This one
i've researched quite a bit.

i'd love recipe's/input on mead and plambic. I'm not interested in
adding fruit to either, and would like a still mead.

I may be moving in 6 mos. or so. If I have a mead and or pLambic in a
fermentor at this time, is it the going to hurt to move it? I know that
the pellicle in a Plambic should not be disturbed. It will definately be
disturbed if I have to move it to another city!

TIA, jim



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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:16:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Alan Edwards <ale at cisco.com>
Subject: crush

Joe Rolfe wrote:
| Once you "see" good crush - you just know if it is good enuff or not. 
| The more likely reason for crappy extract or batch to batch
| inconsistency, (outside of normal boundaries what ever that works out
| to for the beers you brew with your equipment) is old, stale or
| otherwise mishandled (many hands are touching this before you in most
| cases) malt. The next would be poor lautering, followed by pH/temp
| control, then i'll buy into the crush.

I second that!!  The *perfect* crush is way down the list of things
to worry about and tweak in order to get great beer or the ultimate
extraction rate.

IN FACT, some of us have completely forgone the search for the ultimite
extraction rate in favor of better beer!

So PLEASE, PLEASE stop the bickering over who's malt crushing device is
the best!

There IS NO perfect crush for every possible lautering system.


I bought the mill that the homebrew store owner recommended, based on
his return rate!  Talk to your HB store owners.  (Turned out to be
Listerman's, if you are interested, but that is one guy, and one HB store
owner's data point...your mileage may vary...caveat emptor...not valid
in some states...yadda yadda yadda.)

 -Alan in Fremont, CA


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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:29:24 -0500
From: Rick Raver <jed at cyberia.com>
Subject: Re: Where to get 6oz bottles for barleywine

For those living in the North East, you can get returnable bottles of
Rolling Rock in the 7 oz. size.  They are green, so they have to be kept
far away from light, but they have worked quite well for me in the past.  I
have used them for barleywine and belgian stong ales.

I know the owner of a local beer distributor (that's right, you have to go
to a distributor in PA) that sold me a few cases for the price of the
deposit ($1.50 per case, I think).  If anyone is having trouble finding
them and is willing to drive to South-Central PA, I can pick some up.  They
will not be clean, in fact mine were pretty darn disgusting.

Rick

- --
    Rick Raver, Physicist           mailto:jed at cyberia.com
    York Cancer Center, PA          http://www.cyberia.com/pages/jed/



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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:41 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Response to interesting Wheat beer questions

     Hi all,
     
     Dave Humes posted some interesting questions about Bavarian-style 
     wheat beers back in HBD 2972.  My life has been somewhat hectic 
     as of late, which is why I am only now responding.  I have quoted 
     liberally from Dave's post since it appeared in the digest so 
     many days ago.
     
     Dave asks:
     
     "Does resting briefly at 55C, as opposed to no rest in the 
     temperature range of protein degrading enzymes, help encourage 
     haze formation?  I would think you would get the most haze from 
     no protein rest at all."
     
     To which I say:
     
     According to Wolfgang Kunze, it is the medium-sized proteins that 
     are most responsible for haze formation, so I figured that a rest 
     at 55C (131F) would help to increase the beer's haze potential 
     while not tremendously hurting its heading ability.  I think that 
     the larger proteins are more readily coagulated during the boil 
     and thus removed from the wort.  The medium-sized proteins remain 
     to produce chill haze.  This idea is not quite spelled out by 
     Kunze, but seems like a reasonable extrapolation of his text.  As 
     I stated in my recipe, someday I will try this brew with no 
     protein rest and see what happens.
     
     Dave then asks:
     
     "Also, if the idea with a hefe weizen is to enourage haze 
     formation and retain significant preteinaceous matter to support 
     the rich frothy head we expect, then it would also seem to be 
     beneficial to limit the length of the boil.  Eric Warner suggests 
     boil times from 90 to 120 minutes due to the high level of 
     coabulable protein in a weissbier wort.  This might make sense 
     for a crystal weizen, but maybe the boil should be shortened for 
     a hefe weizen."
     
     I respond:
     
     Hmmm.  Here is the paradox of wheat beers:  You want protein for 
     body, head, and haze, yet it is desirable to remove it for 
     certain reasons, too.  Some of the reasons for protein removal 
     are uncertain to me; Brewers sometimes say, "Too much protein can 
     affect the stability of the beer."  In what way?  I know that it 
     can lead to colloidal stability problems, but in a Weizen this 
     isn't an issue.  In what other ways do high protein levels effect 
     a beer's stability?
     
     One concern for many commercial Weizen brewers is that of 
     filterability.  The young Weizenbier is filtered to remove the 
     top-fermenting yeast strain which is then replaced by a lager 
     strain.  Although the pore size of the filter is relatively large 
     (yeast are removed by a 5 micron filter), excessive proteins 
     would still reduce the life of the filter.  That is not usually a 
     concern for the small brewer.
     
     Another reason to promote hot break formation is that these large 
     proteins can inhibit fermentation by physically blocking the 
     yeast membrane from absorbing nutrients.  This idea is discussed 
     in both Kunze's book _Technology Brewing and Malting_ (p. 292) 
     and Warner's book _Koelsch_ (p. 71).
     
     Keep in mind that the longer boil will have effects other than 
     protein coagulation.  The flavor will be altered by the long 
     boil, the color deepened, and more DMS will be formed and driven 
     off, reducing the chances of any DMS being carried over to the 
     beer.  Despite the large proportion of Pils malt in many 
     Weizenbiers, DMS is never a prominent flavor component.
     
     Dave continues:
     
     "An interesting article I came across on the web talks about how 
     the Shephed Neame brewery in the UK formulated a hefe weizen to 
     be brewed using traditional British infusion mashing techniques.  
     It can be found at 
     http://www.breworld.com/the_grist/9804/gr2.html.  A few 
     interesting points to be found there are the recommended pitching 
     rate of 0.5 million cells per ml per degree Plato and the storage 
     temperature (prior to packaging) of 18C, which was intentionally 
     high to discourage protein loss as chill haze.  Is underpitching 
     weisbier worts typical practice to help encourage ester 
     formation?  Is cold conditioning typically avoided to help retain 
     the haze and body supporting proteins?"
     
     Back to me:
     
     I read his article and take issue with a number of things in it.  
     First, the pitching rate is pretty low, but on the other hand, so 
     is the pitching rate for my Weizenbier, so maybe that is OK.
     
     The thing that really bugged me in this article was the mention 
     of the desirability of oxygen at bottling time.  The author 
     claims that this is necessary to support yeast growth and ensure 
     a sound bottle fermentation.
     
     To this I boldly say, "Poppycock!"  Why?
     
     1.  Yeast growth is not desirable at bottling time.
     
     2.  The yeast may not use all of the headspace air, anyway.
     
     3.  Keeping the beer warm for a week with oxygen present is 
     really going to hurt the shelf life (see Fix's Dec. Brewing 
     Techniques article about oxidation; 5 days 'til staleness if the 
     aerated beer is kept warm).
     
     As far as the warm conditioning step in the bottle being employed 
     to prevent the loss of chill haze, I say:
     
     Once the beer is bottled, any chill haze that forms and settles 
     will simply become resuspended (and redissolved) upon shipping 
     and warming.  It ain't gonna stay settled.  In fact, repeated 
     chilling/warming will actually speed the formation of permanent 
     haze in the beer, which would be seemingly desirable in the 
     style.
     
     My guess is that warm conditioning is used to speed the 
     carbonation of the beer and allow them to move the product out 
     the door more quickly.  The warm temperature may effect the 
     flavor, too, but it will also speed staling reactions.
     
     I have tried warm conditioning my bottled Weizens (30C) and have 
     compared the result to bottles from the same batch that were kept 
     cooler (no higher than 65F (18.3C).  The beer in the warm bottles 
     tastes pretty similar to the cool ones (although I don't have 
     notes with me).  I never kept the warm-conditioned beers around 
     long enough to determine their shelf life.  I used warm 
     conditioning purely to speed the carbonation process.
     
     Hopefully this post has answered some questions, and will provoke 
     discussion about the unanswered ones.  I can't believe that after 
     all this time the mill thread is still going strong...
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:40:40 EST
From: WayneM38 at aol.com
Subject: Subject: 100 Gallon limit broken! dont do it

On: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 06:46:12 EST  DakBrew at aol.com laments:

>>>>WayneM38 at aol.com sez....

>>>>Then there is that 100 gal limit........

>>>Tha one's easy: just get married! It doubles it!See ya!

>>>Pat Babcock in SE Michigan    

>>Don't do it Wayne The rule is 200 GL for a 2 adult Household. I take this to
>>mean Girlfriend, Roommate, or anyone as long as there are 2 adults residing
in
>>the house. 
>>No need to potentially ruin your life for 100 GL of beer per year.

Pat and DakBrew: 

If I would ever get  married 'again', custody of my RIMS will certainly be
covered in the prenuptual agreement!!! 

Cheers!

Wayne
Big Fun Brewing (100 Gals. in) Milwaukee


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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:39:46 -0500
From: Gary_H_Nazelrod at tst.tracor.com (Gary H Nazelrod)
Subject: Dutch Oud Bruin

Some years ago I had a bottle of Dutch Oud Bruin.  I have never seen this 
style in the US.  It is a low alcohol beer ~2.4%v, it is fairly sweet.  I 
do not remember if hops are noticeable or not.  It is dark.  Does anyone 
have any insight as how to make one of these?  What ingredients? How to 
achieve the sweetness?  Now, after I make a Dutch Oud Bruin (assuming I get 
some answers), what category do I enter it in a contest?

Gary Nazelrod
Silver Spring MD
(way far west of Jeff, but closer to the east)


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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:15:47
From: "William W. Macher" <macher at telerama.lm.com>
Subject: Purging with steam...

Hi everyone!

Related to my steam-injected RIMS adventure (system 
almost brew ready) I came up with an idea that might be of 
some benefit to my process,  as an HSA reduction measure.   
I would like to pass it by the collective as I have not heard 
of anyone doing it...

Would using a gentle blanket of steam to purge air from the 
boiling kettle,  when either filling it from the mash tun,  or 
while the hot wort sits there waiting to be pumped through 
my counter flow chiller,  make any sense?

I got this idea after remembering my high school science 
teacher demonstrating atmospheric pressure,  by putting 
some water inside one of those box-shaped gallon tin cans 
and heating it over a bunsen burner.  After the steam started 
coming out of the opening,  he put the cap back on and set 
the can aside.  As it cooled and the steam condensed,  
atmospheric air pressure crushed the can...so steam can 
displace air!

What I am thinking is that since I have a source of steam,  I 
could have a constant gentle flow of steam going into the 
boil kettle,  above the surface of the wort.  If I adjust the 
flow correctly,  this would keep air away from the wort.  I 
realize that I would need to be careful not to do it in a 
fashion that could actually suck air into the kettle. 

Would there be any REAL benefit,  or am I stretching the 
rubber band a bit too tight?

Bill
 



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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:13:58 -0500
From: Stephen Klump <StephenKlump at compuserve.com>
Subject: Barleywine bottles

On Mon, 15 Mar 1999 in HBD #2978, Thomas Murray wrote:

> Does anyone know of a source for 6oz bottles. It's about time to bottle

my
> barleywine.

As a brewer of strong old ales, imperial russian stouts and barleywines,
i have wrestled with this problem.  (You just hate to toss out half
of a 12 oz-er...)

A local homebrew shop sells (with ski mask on) 7oz bottles for ca $1 
each! 


If you  are willing to "expand" your requirements to 8oz, Coca Cola 

comes in  "antique" (clear) bottles which you can find at most Target
stores
or even local grocery stores (kroger).
  

Some might raise a flag over the clear aspect of the bottles, but I find
that 

by not leaving my beer in a window or under bright lights,  skunk 
potential

is minimized.  (Besides, how many brown glass carbouys are out there?)

I hope this helps.

Cheers!
Stephen

stephenklump at compuserve.com

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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:27:41 -0600
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE: Split session brewing

Greg Remake asked how some of us handle split session brewing.
When I do it I boil the wort for 10-15 minutes, cover it, and come back the
next day.  I boil it to try to kill any nasties that might work overnight
to produce off flavors.  I can't back up my procedure with scientific
justification but it seems it seems right to me.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas


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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:08:41 -0500
From: "Santerre, Peter (PRS) - CPC" <PRS at NA2.US.ML.COM>
Subject: Split Session Brewing

Greg Remake <gremake at gsbalum.uchicago.edu> tried this:

"...I tried splitting my brewing session into
two parts this weekend, and it was a great success.  Even with a late start
on Friday night, I still got to bed at a reasonable time after mashing and
sparging, then boiled the wort and filled the primary on Saturday morning
(after squeezing in a charity pancake breakfast)..."

I was just curious about the possibility of your wort going sour in that
time.
I know my roommate and I are not always the most motivated people when it
comes
to cleaning out the mash tun - and when we wait until the next day to do it
that grain is sure reeky and sour smelling.  Does this happen to unboiled
wort as well, or is it just the grain that turns sour?  I guess this
question
also applies to the extended mash durations as well.   If you leave your
mash
sitting in your tun overnight, wont it be sour by the morning?

Peter Santerre
San Francisco Tech Support & SERMA Specialist
 


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---