---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  I'll be your back door man, baby! (pbabcock)
  wort pH ("Fred L. Johnson")
  Homebrew supply store list (TPuskar)
  Poor Extraction (Dan Listermann)
  Judging variability (Paul Dey)
  Chitosan, $3 X 40 = $120, outatown (Dave Burley)
  Nottingham Lag Times / Water Treatment (Ken Schwartz)
  wheat malt extract (JPSimo1106)
  Cleaning carboys (fridge)
  Domestic Versus European Malts (Randy Shreve)
  The Demise of Another Local Homebrew Shop (BreslerHS)
  re:Local HB R.I.P. (Matthew Comstock)
  never done a mead or pLambic for that matter (Nathan Kanous)
  Cleaning Carboys ("Bob Scott")
  Bulk Buys (Dan Listermann)
  Stock Ale (Nathan Kanous)
  Support My Local HB Store... ("Penn, John")
  Cleaning Carboys ("Eric R. Theiner")


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild's 13th annual Big and Huge - 28
March 1999:  Rules and forms at www.globaldialog.com/madbrewers
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JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 20:31:04 -0500 (EST)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: I'll be your back door man, baby!

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Marc continues on with...

> You're missing the point.  

No; I don't think I am.

> Of course, every homebrew shop wants 100% market
> share.  Who wouldn't?  I was making the assumption that the brewery isn't
> going to sell you grains at cost--no one is that fiscally bereft.  It's not
> like you're likely to buy a ton of their beer.  If you homebrew and need to
> buy hundreds of pounds of grain, you have your own product to consume.  What
> I am suggesting is that if you have to give SOMEONE a profit, why not
> support the local store?  Now let's get down to the nitty gritty.

And I don't argue the point. HOWEVER, I argue that a HB shop owner using
that as the sole reason for a brewer to purchase at his shop is
intellectually bereft. Adjust, adapt. Be competitive. (Note I assumed that
$3 was half your profit in the original post, so I gave the brewpub some
credit for fiscal responsibility...)

> I'll play devil's advocate and ask why *should* you buy from a store?  Will
> the local brewery supply you with hops?  Maybe...but you may only get
> two-four options.  Will they provide you with yeast?  Maybe, but you'll
...
> buy grain by the sack, but by the pound (5, 10, 20lbs, whatever).  The
> result of losing volume to the backdoor deal means the average price per
> sack goes up which means the price for smaller quantities goes up effecting
> a much larger percentage of brewers.

You assume that the "back-door dealing" groups depend on the pub for all
their brewing needs. I don't think that's very realistic.  And you seem to
assume that they're a larger group than the "elite" I've known them to be.
I don't think that's very realistic, either. In my experience, few home
brewers are able to cultivate that type of relationship with their local
brewpub(s), but it's a big world and I live in such a tiny part of it. In
any case neither point has anything to do with the arguments I presented.
My points are/were (a) it is highly doubtful that the "back-door dealings"
between a brewpub and a group of home brewers will have a marked effect on
a shop owners bottom line (unless, of course, they're the horde you
illustrate them to be...) and (b) where competition occurs, one must take
action to adjust, adapt and remain competitive.

Stating that someone *should* buy from a shop because of greater variety
does nothing to answer the question of WHY someone would do the back-door
routine with a brewpub, does it? It'd be safe to assume that that variety
existed before and even as the brewer was "back-dooring" the brew pub, no?
So the intelligent question for the shop owner to ask is WHY that brewer
found it necessary to go there? Answer that question and find the method
of COMPETING with the answer, and you're treating your home brew shop as a
"real life business." But, I stress that these back-door dealings are
_normally_ not worth reacting to. There will always be some who will
do the dealings. If you're still moving your inventory and making a
profit, don't bemoan the few lost sales.

> Maybe the cost of grain is already at the maximum your market will bear.
> So, in order to meet the minimum monthly profits required to keep a small
> business in existence you have to bump the price of other products up a
> little.  Hops go up 10 cents an ounce.  Carboys are up a couple of bucks.
> Yeast goes up a buck.  Suddenly you're effecting a MUCH larger clientele.

You're asking a lot of your customers. I once made a comparison between HB
shop service and McDonald's. I'm about to go there again: do you really
think that when a consumer buys a pound of ground beef, bag of rolls,
Ore-Ida fries and some condiments, and whips up his own quarter-pounders
that he is for one moment considering the impact of these actions on the
fast food industry? Why do you feel that a home brewer should behave any
differently than any other consumer? Aside from a few, you have no basis
to make such an assumption, or to demand such consideration.

Here's the gig, Marc: if to remain competitive selling sacks of grain, you
have to raise prices across the board to the extent that you threaten your
own existence, the solution is NOT to compete on that item. Stop carrying
it. You cannot be competitive in that sector. Most "back door deals" do
not include extracts, and, as you point out, hops and (a variety of)
yeasts. Focus on what's profitable. If that thins the till too much,
perhaps your area cannot support your shop. The demographics could be all
wrong -- something few small shop owners check into before opening up on
their corner (a lot of bank loan officers do, though...). Demographics
change, too. Perhaps your treasure trove of brewers moved or moved on?  
Maybe, to survive, you need to diversify. Sell other items that appeal to
another group of customers. Brew & Grow, a local shop, sells home brew
supplies AND gardening/hydroponics supplies. Wine Barrel Plus, another
local shop, sells home brew supplies, wine making supplies, cigars,
baseball cards, liquor, fine beers and wines, deli items - a LOT of
things. Merchant's Fine Wines and Merchant's Warehouse, two other local
shops sell/sold home brew supplies and deli items, imported foods, fine
wines, 400 ales, liquors. And, when one of the stores found that they were
having trouble competing in the home brew sector (due to the proximity of
other local shops, mind you - no "back dooring" involved) they reduced
their home brewing supply inventories and focused on where their profits
were. That's always an option, too.
 
> Competition is more than just price.  It's service, reliability, and
> customer satisfaction.  

Noted, but if they're buying their grains from the local 'pub, they're
obviously not satisfied with that aspect of your business, right?

> Try to find those at the local brewery.  I'm sure
> they're nice, but I've heard plenty of micros in several states bitch about
> the number of petulant homebrewers who complain when they can't stop a
> production process to fill up their Ball jar with fresh yeast.  Pro brewers

Um, that sounds a bit like hyperbole to me, but the world is full of all
kinds. One never knows, do one?

> People call the HBD a great
> homebrewing club, but serving solely selfish interests like bulk grain
> buying winds up limiting products and overall choice.

Whoa, there sonny! Yer horse just fell off a cliff! The HBD is not
condoning nor arranging (nor condemning, for that matter) purchase made or
not made from a home brew shop. You appear to be letting your emotions
read far more into a simple statement -- based on economics -- than is
there.  Unfortunate, but it occurs. Remember: you brought up the grain
buys, and you cited the dollar amounts used in the analysis.

Recall: the statement made was that back door dealings are likely not the
source of the "downfall" in retail home brew supply. Notice how that DOES
NOT sound a whole lot like: "go out and buy your grains from the local
brew pubs." 

As the HBD, I think I can say we advocate: "Think globally, buy locally."
Personally, in my entire brewing "career", I've bought one grain mill via
mail order (from a brew shop in a Massachusetts), one hundred kegs for my
brew club (from a brew shop in Georgia) and one pound of hops via a "group
buy" - the main reason for that is the difficulty I've encountered trying
to buy whole styrian goldings in our locale. And that's in OVER 25 years
of doing this stuff. My sacks of grain? They come from Wine Barrel Plus in
Livonia. A local home brew supply store. My yeast?  From Wine Barrel Plus,
Merchant's Warehouse, and Brew & Grow -- all local. My hops also come from
the aforementioned shops. Never bought anything but finished beer from a
brew pub. Oh, yeah: and a tee shirt or two. So watch your assumptions and
name calling.  Or I'll accuse you of whining. Again. Nyah! (Don't get me
wrong,though: like any other red-blooded American consumer, I'm not averse
to getting a good deal. Just that most of the "good deals" don't meet my
timing requirements -- a service aspect the local home brew shops easily
meet!)

Since you can't see it, it is likely others can't as well, so I state it
right here: The conversation was started on AOL (and allowed to migrate
here) to open discussion in order to HELP home brewing in general --
including a focus on helping local home brew shops better serve their
local patrons (you apparently missed that in the original posts, focusing
on the back door and whining issues instead). But keep in mind that it's a
actually a one-way street: home brew shops must serve their patrons just
as any other business in the US must serve their's. The shop depends on
the sales dollars; not the converse. Part of the problem, too, is that
this relationship gets turned around in a lot of minds out there. Frankly,
the RESPONSIBILITY for their own viability rests on the shops. Anything
the home brewing community does to aid them above and beyond fitting the
necessary demographic profile is a bonus and should not be part of a
business plan.
 
> If your boss told you that they could easily fill your role with a temp and
> not pay benefits, you'd be out the door like a hot potato.  Why don't they?

In the economic analysis, except in some of the lower-paid positions in
the company, the contract pay vs salary and benefits analysis doesn't
always wash. Contract PROFESSIONALS can be more costly than salaried
employees because they have the ability to renegotiate their contracts on
an annual (sometimes as often as quarterly) basis. And their benefits are
being paid by the company at a much higher rate than for a salaried
employee -- in the form of higher hourly rates. Dramatically higher. The
difference is that you aren't tied to them long term, so they make good
project chasers and "specialists". Someone to get the job done, and then
be cut loose.

> Because loyalty, in its many forms, has a benefit that far outweighs the
> cost.

Unfortunately, in today's corporate America, that equation really no
longer works. Employee loyalty does not feed the bottom line. It's
customer loyalty that does. You have to CULTIVATE that loyalty; you cannot
simply expect it to exist simply because they have shopped in your store.
And customer loyalty can be a costly thing to maintain -- look to the auto
industry for rebates; the grocery industry for coupons: all efforts to
cultivate and maintain customer loyalty. And, customer loyalty comes from
many things -- service, selection, price, among others. But consumer
desires and motivations are fickle things.  A customer is rarely loyal for
any better reason than that they're satisfied with your service,
selection/product and your price. Any one of those precariously balanced
items can easily fall to the other side, swaying that customer's "loyalty"
to someone else.

Remember the "Buy American" campaigns mounted by the Unions in answer to
the import threat of the 80's? Not "buy because of equal or better
quality," not "Buy because of better selection" nor "buy because of better
service." Just buy because it's made in America. They whined, to be frank.
They expected you to buy American simply because you were American. And
they weren't any more successful with it than you should expect to be with
your arguments. It wasn't until they addressed issues with complacent
industry and increased quality and productivity (which lowers prices) that
they were able to stem the tide in many arenas. But, due to our inability
or unwillingness to deal with the competition at hand, the steel and
consumer electronics industries have pretty much been lost to another
country -- and we almost lost the automotive industry to boot. I see a
parallel in your discussion, though foreign competition is not involved.

> Be loyal to your local establishment and think about its benefit to
> the overall homebrewing community.  Otherwise we'll all be back to Pabst
> Hopped Malt Extract as the only choice around.  Remember, it's good to be
> passionate and emotional about brewing.  If homebrewers were interested in a
> homogenized economy where everyone got everything as cheap as possible, we'd
> all be drinking MGD Light or Milwaukee's Best.  It's not like (even with
> bulk buying) you could EVER make beer as cheap as the big boys.  If you want
> cheap beer, drink swill.  If you want to be able to create product of
> unparalleled depth and creativity, homebrew.
 
Nice chest thumping speech, but, doesn't tell my why I should buy from
your shop vs the local brew pub. Otherwise, your hand-waving just goes to
reinforce my point: too many home brew shops are depending on -- no!
DEMANDING! -- the good will of the local home brewing community rather
than taking measures to ensure they earn that goodwill and remain
competitive and viable. More the pity. They'd miss my point, too.

> Thanks for putting up with my diatribe.
 
Pleasure. Hope you've enjoyed mine:) Of course, shop owners are free to
run their business as they choose, and no-one -- no matter how well
intentioned -- can come in and change that. Just please accept the
converse and don't demand that consumers of your product operate under
some ideals beyond the norm. 

I would rather this discussion take the intended course: how do we attract
more to our hobby and ensure the customer base is there to support the
supply base we've become used to? The organizations we thought were out
there to do that have other mission statements or are simply missing the
mark. We need to save ourselves. There's a whole lot of HBDer's out there
and we all have ideas. Let's let some rip...

[Except where noted, these are MY opinions; and do not necessarily reflect
those of the HBD, it's other Janitor, or the Steering Committee.]

Sorry for the long post.

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:32:49 -0500
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: wort pH

Mark Bayer states that too-low a pH of the wort can result in poor hot 
break.  I have heard this before but without specific information.

Could you, Mark, or anyone else specify at what point does low pH cause such
problems?  I presume that this is not an all-or-none phenomenon and that
there is a measureable degree of hot break that will be produced at
different pH levels.  Can anyone provide a reference with more specific
information?
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:23:14 EST
From: TPuskar at aol.com
Subject: Homebrew supply store list

I travel up and down the East coast quite a bit.  Whenever I have free time I
like to find the local homebrew supply store and look around.  I've found a
wide assortment of shops with a wide range of talent as well as supplies.  I
dare say I've learned something from just about everyone I visit.

My question to the collective is this: Does anyone have a database of homebrew
shops suitable for a PDA like a Palm Pilot or even in some software suitable
for a notebook computer?  I usually lug a copy of Zymurgy or BT or BREW Your
Own with me, but they take up a lot of space and get kinda heavy.

I'd be glad to help put a list together if someone would be interested in
dividing up the states and share a suitable source of advertising.  No
editorial comments needed--just searchable addresses.

Private email to discuss this would be welcome.

Tom Puskar
Howell, NJ


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:55:07 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Poor Extraction

I wrote:

>>"One of the prime reasons that brewers get poor extractions 

>>is poor crushes.  This is especially common 

>>amoung beginning all-grain brewers because of a fear
>>of getting a stuck mash.  Inconsistant crushes cannot
>>be looked upon as an advantage."
 

Joe Rolfe (rolfe at sky.com) writes:

<Once you "see" good crush - you just know if it is good enuff or not. 

The more likely reason for crappy extract or batch to batch
inconsistency, (outside of normal boundaries what ever that works out
to for the beers you brew with your equipment) is old, stale or
otherwise mishandled (many hands are touching this before you in most
cases) malt. The next would be poor lautering, followed by pH/temp
control, then i'll buy into the crush.>

I can only speak from my experiance.  I can only recall blaming bad
extraction on poor malt once.  It was malt that I malted myself. 

Considering that the last time I brewed with my own malt I got 28 points,

it may have not been the malt.  


I have, however kicked myself over neglecting to mind the crush.  This
problem can usually be diagnosed by inspection of the spent grains.  If 
the
grain was under crushed, there are usually ends of grain that starch can 
be
squeezed out of.  I can't ever recall deciding that the commercially
produced malt produced a poor extraction because it was "old or stale." 

How much moisture can a grain have to effect extraction enough to 
measure? 

I don't know, but I will bet that you could easily tell that there was a
problem by  chewing a sample.

If you suspect a problem with your grain, there is a test that you can
perform. I am sure that there is a formal, officially accepted way of 
doing
this, but this works.  Weigh out a known quantity of grain and crush it
heavily.  If your mill is unadjustable or you don't want to fool with a
difficult adjustment mechanism, run it through a few times. You might 
want
to reweigh the crushed grain.  Weigh a pot and do a mash with the grain. 
 A
little on the runny side helps.  After the mash, reweigh the pot, mash 
and
water.  Subtract the weight of the pot and the weight of the grain to 
find
the weight of the water remaining.  Take a cooled or temperatured 
corrected
gravity reading.  Divide the weight of the water by 8.34 lbs. per gallon
and multiply it by the gravity expressed in points.  Divide this number 
by
the pounds of grain to arrive at the extraction rate in points per pound
per gallon.

An example is probably best.  Say that you have a pot that weighs 3 
pounds.
 You weigh out a .75lbs. of grain.  You make out a runny mash using a
little more than half gallon of water.  After conversion you find that 
the
whole thing weighs 7.92 pounds.  Subtract out 3 pounds for the pot and 
 .75
pounds for the grain.  The remaining water weighs 4.17 pounds.  Divide 
this
number by the weight of a gallon of water - 8.34 pounds to arrive at the
volume of water - .5 gallons.  Now say that the gravity of the wort is 
50. 

 .5 gallons times 50 is 25 points and since you used .75 pounds to make 
it,
the potential extraction of the malt is 25 divided by .75 or 33.3 points
per pound per gallon.  


I developed this method while trying to determine how efficient mashing 
in
bags is for partial mashes - about 20 points per pound per gallon for 
pale
malts limited to a pound per bag.

If you suspect that the malt is responsible for poor extractions try 
this. 

I doubt that it will be the case very often if at all.  Again, it has 
been
my experiance that the larger portion of the poor extraction problems 
comes
from under milling.  Rapid or poor lautering techniques are a distant
second.  


Dan Listermann           dan at listermann.com   or 
72723.1706 at compuserve.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:10:12 -0700
From: Paul Dey <alldey at uswest.net>
Subject: Judging variability

For those who enter competitions on an infrequent basis or have entered
only once or twice, I want to offer a recent experience.  It may help
you put your scores into perspective.  For example, a recent poster
lamented the judges criticism of excessive DMS in a Cream Ale.  My first
though was, "what, its supposed to be there!".  By the way, I'm a BJCP
certified judge myself and enjoy entering beers in competitions and
comparing the notes of others to my own...though I'm always biased when
evaluating my own beers.

Anyhow, I recently sent a robust porter to the "Best of Brooklyn" and
the same beer to the Boston competition.  Both relatively large
competitions with a history of pulling off successful events.  I scored
the beer a 36 before sending it and noted low carbonation and fair at
best head retention.  Otherwise, I thought it was a fine example of the
style.  The Boston judges thought so as well assigning scores of 38 and
38 from a certified judge and an apprentice (the table's a little light
but I know how hard it is to round up judges).  They noted excellent
hop/malt balance and nice coffee notes though it was dinged for lack of
carbonation.

The Brooklyn boys didn't like my beer and struggled to give it a 24
(which rates in the "good" category compared to an excellent rating by
the previous judges).  These judges, who were ranked as recognized,
certified and certified, managed to find astringency (not uncommon in
Robust Porters but interpretation of objectionable levels varies),
oxidation, and metallic thinness among other comments. I could argue
these points, but on re-tasting find a slight harshness in the finish
that some may not like.  It may be due to my high carbonate water.  

My point isn't to knock judges or a particular event, but instead to
warn that no matter how qualified the judges, there is a degree of
randomness in beer evaluation.  Don't blindly accept some "expert's"
prognosis but instead add it to your database and get others to comment
on the beer and especially note how well you like the beer yourself. It
also helps to send a beer to a couple competitions if you really want to
hone a recipe. 

Oh, and send your beer to Boston not...oh, just kidding George :{)

Paul Dey
Cheyenne, WY


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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:47:56 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Chitosan, $3 X 40 = $120, outatown

Brewsters:

Harry Ewasiuk asks about Chitosan and its usefulness in
fining beer.  Chitosan is a complex carbohydrate extracted
from the shells of shrimp and the like. It makes up part of the
exo-skeletons of many mollusks and beetles.  It has been
on the market for quite a few years now with many, many
proposed uses, but none that I know of which are major.
I suspect it is a solution looking for a problem and exists
because the source is so plentiful as a waste product
around fisheries.  Why not contact the Department of Fisheries
(probably  U.S Dept of Agriculture, Beltsville, Maryland via
Internet or  phone 202-555-1212 or US Govt. Information)
and the similar agency there Canada  and ask them.
Check out the Internet. Please let the HBD know your findings.

I do not know of its use in beer commercially or by
homebrewers, but it wouldn't surprise me if it had been tried.
- -----------------------------------------
I first wrote:

"I thought Pat Bacock was old enough that he
learned to do mathematics in his head.  Guess not!
$3 x40 bags = $120." Then I got a tongue in cheek note
from Pat saying that *I* was the one who couldn't read, since
he said if <HALF> of the profit $120.  Thanks for being the
ever vigilant HBD Janitor! 2X$120 IS $240 as he said.

I continued:

Nevertheless, hardly a difference between a viable business
and bankruptcy. More likely the decline in economic activity
is a problem of home brewing and winemaking as a hobby.

Hobbies in the US, like any trend, ebb and flow with time.
I agree with Pat's position but suggest that another approach 

for Homebrew/Wine stores to generate floor traffic is to 

expand or perhaps consolidate with another merchant
locally with  hobby related products, like cooking, baking,
cheesemaking and other related hobbies. Inventory
( so sales/investment will go down) may go up, but these
hobbies are easily cross-pollinated and could build
the strength of the brewshop up to a more stable entity. 

This is a little like the insurance game, take enough 

risks and the probability is you will be stable over time.
We would all be happier if HB stores were around for the
foreseeable future. 

- --------------------------------------------
I'll be out of town for a week or so. I'll respond to any e-mail when I 
get
back.
- --------------------------------------------
Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley 


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:39:05 -0700
From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com>
Subject: Nottingham Lag Times / Water Treatment

Catching up on past HBDs after spending the weekend in the NYC area to
attend the Holyfield-Lewis fight.  What a cluster-f**k that was.  And
$5.75 for Bud on top of it all.  Sheesh.

Charles Beaver asks:

"I just reviewed the 1998 postings on Nottingham yeast usage. About 75%
claimed an explosive start to fermentation but the other 25% referenced
very
long lag times. I have recently used this yeast twice and found both
times
that the lag time was huge. Has anyone found the cause of the increased
lag?"

I have had both extremes of luck with Nottingham.  For the very most
part, it's a good, clean, neutral yeast that I even used once to make a
credible Pilsner.  However, in two cases I can recall (an American Wheat
ale and a recent Vienna Fake-Lager), I had longer than expected lag
times (18 hours or more) associated with obvious solventy/fusely notes
in the flavor.  There was a strong banana component to the aroma in the
Vienna that has faded away, but the off-flavor persists.  Not as bad as
85-degree-fermentation beer, but there.

In the case of the Vienna, I also noticed that the rehydration "starter"
did not foam as much as usual.  Now, Lallemand says that foaming is not
necessarily an indication of anything other than release of trapped air,
but the lack of activity struck me enough to make a mental note of it
and I wonder if the percentage of viable yeast was so small as to
require overgrowth to compensate (see George de Piro's article in the
latest Brewing Techniques for a good discussion of pitching rate vs
growth vs esters & fusels).  In this case also, I only pitched one
package, whereas I normally pitch two.

Both the wheat and the Vienna were well-aerated.  The Vienna in fact was
aerated with pure O2 with two one-minute blasts.

I wonder if some mishandling of the yeast occurred that might have
reduced the viable population?  The expiration date was 11/01 so I know
it was a fresh lot.

Thomas S Bartlett asks:

"Is water treatment really something i want to get myself involved in? 
In other words, will it significantly improve my beers, or simply make
things more complicated?"

I have on my web page some introductory information on water treatment
along with a program called BreWater.  Between these two resources (and
plenty of other great info in many brewing books) you can make water
treatment a truly simple part of your brewing routine.  While trying to
"duplicate" world-famous water profiles (to the extent possible at
least) is kinda fun, another approach says make the water compatible
with your brewing chemistry and don't sweat the details.  My approach is
to use RO water from the water store and add easy-to-find brewing salsts
to suit, using BreWater or other software to guide me.  Gypsum, chalk,
baking soda, non-iodized canning salt, epsom salts, and calcium chloride
make up my water treatment arsenal.  The CaCl2 is a bit hard to find; I
bought a bunch from HopTech (www.hoptech.com) a while ago and am still
using the same bag.  The other salts can be found at your HB store, the
gorcery store, and the pharmacy.

- -- 
*****

Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
Brewing Web Page: http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer
E-mail: kenbob at elp.rr.com


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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:54:10 EST
From: JPSimo1106 at aol.com
Subject: wheat malt extract

To the collective malted intelligence:

I need some information regarding wheat malt extract.  Are there any problems
similar to regular barley malt extract that I should be aware of?  I was
thinking of issues like the age of the extract, brand, color...

Much appreciated,

John Simonetta
Randolph, MA


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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:31:23 -0500
From: fridge at kalamazoo.net
Subject: Cleaning carboys

Greetings folks,

 In HBD#2980, Andrew Nix asks what others use for cleaning 
carboys. I have found that "sudsy ammonia" from my local grocery 
store works great and is cheap too. I use a mixture of 3 parts water 
to one part sudsy ammonia. I fill my carboys and let them set for an 
hour or so before brushing with a regular carboy brush. I then let 
any solids settle out and pour off the ammonia mixture into 5gal 
buckets with tight-fitting lids until needed again. I rinse the carboys 
with clean water and store them stoppered, with a half-gallon or so 
of iodophor solution inside. I reuse the ammonia solution several 
times before I pitch it. A half-gallon jug of sudsy ammonia costs less 
than a buck.

Hope this helps!

Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridge at kalamazoo.net



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Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:25:44 -0500
From: Randy Shreve <rashreve at interpath.com>
Subject: Domestic Versus European Malts

European base malts are significantly more expensive than domestic
alternatives for obvious reasons.

For the average (American) home brewer, is the extra cost for the
European varieties really worth the extra cost?  Are the flavor profiles
of these malts THAT much different from what we have available to us
here in the states?

Thanks!
Randy
Brewing frugally in Salisbury, NC (almost time to buy a new sack of
malt!)



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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:31:47 EST
From: BreslerHS at aol.com
Subject: The Demise of Another Local Homebrew Shop

"...don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got 'til it's
gone; they've paved paradise and put up a parking lot."  
- --from "Big Yellow Taxi" by Joni Mitchell

Goodale Homebrew Supply (of Columbus, Ohio) is closing its doors forever at
the end of this month.  We are losing a great resource here in Columbus.  Not
because Goodale was the only homebrew supplier in town, but because it was a
DIFFERENT supplier.  We have another good supplier in town, but Bob Cotterman,
the proprietor of Goodale, had stuff you usually can't just walk in off the
street and buy from anywhere else.  Other stores will "special order" for you,
but that's not the same as being able to walk into Bob's and say you wanted to
put together an all-grain version of that recipe you found that takes 12
different specialty and pale grains, and he'd have them all.  If you wanted
pale malt, you could have your choice of Belgian, 2 kinds of British, US, and
German.  If you wanted genuine imported Belgian Pils, Munich or Special "B" it
was there.  If you wanted German grains, he had those, too.  English crystal,
US crystal, 10, 20, 40, 60, 80, 100L and so on -- you name it.  Torrified,
flaked, or raw -- wheat, corn, rye, or oats...  I'm going to miss all that,
and so will others here who also look upon their ingredients as if they were
little treasures newly discovered.  Bob carried the largest selection of keg
parts I've ever seen outside of a catalog; poppets and gaskets of every shape
and variety, and Bob knew which parts fit which kegs.  You've got an old
Firestone with a leaky poppet, he's got the replacement part to fit.  

Bob was also a community resource.  He gave good brewing advice to all who
wanted it, but never assumed that he knew it all.  He gave discounts to
homebrew club members to encourage communication among local brewers.  I would
often find a couple of brewers standing around tasting little bits of this
grain or that, comparing tasting notes and creating recipes.  I guess that
didn't happen often enough, though.  

The members of the SODZ Homebrew Club will especially miss the shop.  Besides
the few percent offfor members, Bob allowed us to meet there once a month --
he even offered to purchase the chairs.  We all owe him a great deal of thanks
for his hospitality.  

"So," you ask, "what put Bob's little treasure chest out of business?"  To
some extent, all the things mentioned in this same HBD thread lately:
declining numbers of new brewers probably being number one, experienced
brewers buying bulk grain from other sources, competitors undercutting price
on the biggest volume items, and the seasonal ups and downs, to name a few.
In an effort to deal with the seasonal variation in brewing business, for a
few years, Bob had a bicycle shop at the same location.  Sold mostly bikes in
the summer when the brewers didn't brew much, and sold brewing supplies in the
winter when most people didn't bike.  But the rent was too high and profits
weren't all that good.  So he moved to a smaller, less expensive location and
gave up the bicycle business, but the homebrew business just isn't strong
enough to keep him afloat.  

Another factor that played part in the decline of Goodale Homebrew Supply was
that a local beer, wine and deli decided to start selling brewing supplies.
They're cheap; much cheaper than Bob.  But you can only buy one or two kinds
pale malt, extracts and a few common specialty grains.  There's no variety,
there's no knowledgeable staff (they know beer, but not brewing), no brewing
aids, no bookshelf, and there's no connection to other brewers.  In a word,
it's cold.  

There are fewer new homebrewers, so the market is undergoing consolidation.
But we are losing some of the quality and diversity in our marketplace.  I
suppose it's a natural progression, in a business sense, but it's unfortunate
just the same.  It's like the disappearance of the neighborhood hardware store
(with the friendly jack-of-all-trades who knows every brand of bathroom faucet
and how to fix them).  Sure, we get cheaper parts at the mega-hardware store,
but there's no one there to teach you how to install them.  

So, we homebrewers are poorer for the loss of another homebrew supply shop.
The hobby suffers (and I don't know where I'm going to go when I need imported
Belgian Munich or German Rauchmalt).  I guess I'll be special ordering or
catalog shopping, things I haven't had to do before now.  

Will I patronize the other quality homebrew shop in Columbus more now that
Goodale Homebrew Supply is gone?  Probably, but only if they satisfy my needs
as a homebrewer.  Give me quality and variety!  To some extent isn't that what
we all want, why we became homebrewers in the first place?  I will not set
foot in the deli turned homebrew supplier; what they are doing is anathema to
the spirit of homebrewing in my opinion.  But I will do my best to support my
local homebrew supplier, and I hope you will do the same.  You never know when
you might need that last-minute purchase of ____________.  

Good luck and good brewing,
Herb
Bexley, Ohio

P.S. I originally intended to write an obituary, but it seems I've written a
eulogy.  Sorry if I've rambled, and thanks for the bandwidth.  --HB


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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 04:50:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: re:Local HB R.I.P.

ajphoto writes:

"because when they do stop in, they openly brag to each other about
the deals they got at Localdemise.com."

And you post the epitaph on hbd.org

ajphoto writes:

"...forget all about those who took the time and talked them through
their first brew"

hbd.org talked me through my first brew.

Maybe Internet sales is putting local homebrew supply shops out of
business like Walmart is killing 'Mom and Pop' local stores.  Maybe
local homebrew supply shops should notice the trend and go online -
and offer competetive pricing.  I like my local store.  But I've been
disappointed more than once by out-of-stock, or over-priced items.  I
won't pay $35 for a 5 gallon carboy just so I will be able to ask
advice on what hops I can use in the place of the out-of-stock Fuggles. 

Matt Comstock in Cincinnati



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:15:02 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: never done a mead or pLambic for that matter

Jim Williams asks about foolproof ways to make mead and pLambic with a
caveat that he'll be moving in 6 months.  He then states:

> I know that the pellicle in a Plambic should not be disturbed. It will
definately be disturbed if I 
> have to move it to another city!

I guess it's reasonable not to want to disturb the pellicle on your
pLambic.  However, sometimes you don't have a choice (anybody want to help
me move next month?).  What I'll do is add some fruit to my pLambic after I
move.  That should start a secondary fermentation and bring the pellicle
back to the top.  Thoughts?

nathan in madison, wi




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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 06:24:36 -0800
From: "Bob Scott" <rrscott at jps.net>
Subject: Cleaning Carboys

Andrew Nix wondered abut cleaning carboys.  Suggest soaking with a strong
solution of dishwasher detergent (or TSP) overnight and then use a carboy
brush.  The solution should feel "slicky" to the touch.  To get the sides
clean, set the carboy on a towel on the floor and tilt it towards you with
one hand.  Use the carboy brush in an up and down motion as you roll the
carboy to scrub all the surface area.

Bob Scott



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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:32:19 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Bulk Buys

John Varady ( rust1d at usa.net) writes:

<One thing a shop owner could do, is to organize the bulk buy. Rather 
then
being cut out of the loop, start the loop off. Make bi-monthly (or
bi-annual) bulk purchases available to the customers. Require that they
advance order at least 100 lbs and perhaps discount normal prices by
25-30%. This way everybody is happy. The shop owner still makes some 
profit
and can order more then they could normally stock knowing that it is
already sold. The home brewer gets his malt cheaper and doesn't feel the
need to hunt down the bargain prices at other sources.>

I own the homebrew shop in Cincinnati.  We have a continous deal for bulk

buying. 


You can buy any amount of grain by the ounce or pound at our regular 
price
off the shelf.  


If you buy a bag of malt off the shelf, you get a 15% discount.  It is 
our
inventory bought with our money.

If you are in a hurry and prepay, we will special order for 15% off.  It 
is
out of our order cycle, so shipping will be expensive.

If you are not in a hurry and prepay, we will sell you a bag for 30% off.
 

It is not our money and we can slip it into our order and shipping cycle.
 

We have a deal with a local micro that lets us discount a domestic malt 
50%
off under these same circumstances.

Dan Listermann            dan at listermann.com       

72723.1703 at compuserve.com





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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:35:05 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Stock Ale

Hi Collective,
I've read some information about Old Ales and Stock Ales historically
undergoing a secondary fermentation with Brettanomyces.  Has anybody tried
to make a stock ale in this fashion?  Anything to report / suggest?  Thanks.
nathan in madison, wi

PS Bill Rogers, send me an e-mail so I have your address


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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:44:34 -0500
From: "Penn, John" <John.Penn at jhuapl.edu>
Subject: Support My Local HB Store...

	Went to my local HB store and talked to the owner who is a very
nice guy and has been very helpful over my 3+ yrs of brewing.  He
lamented the loss of business to brewpubs, etc.  I've seen his variety
of offerings drop and the prices increase, but not too unreasonably.  He
has some business over the Internet, possibly from those of you who've
lost your own local stores.  If you're interested try (www.mdhb.com) and
yes I have some self interest here in that I'd love to see my HB store
stay around.  He has been helpful and there's nothing to compare to
getting your malt locally.  Try shipping 33# of bulk LME anywhere and
see what that final cost is!  Don, the owner, has also introduced their
own packaged kits which have been popular and I must commend him for
also offering 2.5 gallon kits.  I do know of some who don't drink that
often or who like a large variety and a 2.5 gallon kit would be ideal
for someone starting out or someone who doesn't drink that often.  If I
hear of some people starting out I will certainly recommend that they
try some of the smaller 2.5g  kits at my local HB store.

6oz bottles...  Once again I noticed the small brown bottles of Goya
Malta at the local grocery store for a mere $2.87 a 10 pack and have
been tempted to buy them just for the bottles even though I've never
tried Malta... especially after seeing that one post today of a store
offering empty bottles at $1/ea!!!  Wow!

Yeast question...  I recently had a problem with my Nottingham yeast
starting within 24 hrs so I pitched some Morgans Ale yeast in addition
and it took off by the next morning.  My final gravity was quite a bit
higher than I expected (1.019 vs. expected 1.010-12).  Anyone know what
the attenuation is for Morgans Ale yeast?  I usually don't have a
problem with Nottingham and this weeks batch I had no trouble with my
Nottingham taking off by the time I checked it the next morning.
	
John Penn
Eldersburg, MD


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Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:01:46 -0500
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Cleaning Carboys

Andrew Nix asks:
How does everyone out there scrub the inside of their carboys???  What
detergents to you use???

I use Straight-A.  And I will state for the record that I own the
company that manufactures it, LOGIC, Inc.

All sales pitches aside, I will say that I have a 50# keg of Straight-A
that sits right next to my brewhouse sink.  I use it liberally while
cleaning and am quite happy with my results.  For a carboy, I will throw
in about 1/3 of a cup, fill it with cold water (I didn't bother to plumb
a water heater into my brewhouse), and let it set.

Last night, for example, we transferred a batch of strong scotch ale
from a 6.5 gallon primary into a secondary.  I put a little water in the
bottom of the primary, swished it around, and repeated to get out the
spent yeast and loose particles.  I then put in the 1/3 cup of
Straight-A, filled it with water, and had a beer with the guys.  30
minutes later, I poured out half of the solution, shook it, poured out
the rest, and rinsed.

Sometimes I do use a bottle brush to reach the carboy's "shoulders" if I
feel impatient, and sometimes I let it set for a few days.  NBD.  Check
out our website
http://www.ecologiccleansers.com

(Sorry for the commercial nature of this message, but if I didn't
believe it was the best stuff to use, I wouldn't be making it.)

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.



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