---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Some diabetes/beer meanderings ("Dr. Pivo")
  Sundries (AJ)
  re: Green Acres (Lou.Heavner)
  Corrections to the Diabetes Post (Ian Forbes)
  newbie questions ("Russ Hobaugh")
  Spirit of Free Beer (Anderson Andy W NSSC)
  Decline of home brewing (John Adsit)
  Beer Judging - Style Guidelines ("Boscos Nshville Brewing Co.")
  Murphy's Stout ("Bridges, Scott")
  Beer Joke (Paul Haaf)
  Big Brew / Diacetyl (John Varady)
  Broken Thermometer (Dan Listermann)
  Re: Aluminum pots (Tidmarsh Major)
  RE: how do you chill and transfer from boil to fermenter? (Jeremy B. Pugh)
  beer and diabetics (Scott Abene)
  Re: Murphy's stout ("Nix, Andrew")
  Refractometers (Marc Sedam)
  CHEAP pH Meter ? (Bob.Sutton)
  Refractometers, sweet stout,butter (Dave Burley)
  Chiller, Hot and Cold Break questions ("J. Doug Brown")
  Hop Shoots ("Sieben, Richard")
  Sam Adams Summer Ale Clone (Chuck Cubbler)
  A Newbie Brewer Question . . . ("Brett A. Spivy")


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

Enter the Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99. Details at
http://burp.org/SoFB99. 2000 MCAB Qualifier!
Enter the Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99.  Details on the HBD Competition
Calendar for June 1999 (http://hbd.org). 2000 MCAB qualifier!

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. 
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
  the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!

Contact brewery at hbd.org for information regarding the "Cat's Meow"

Back issues are available via:

  HTML from...
        http://hbd.org
  Anonymous ftp from...
	ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests
	ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer
  AFS users can find it under...
        /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

COPYRIGHT for the Digest as a collection is currently held by hbd.org 
  (Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen). Digests in their entirity CANNOT be 
  reprinted/reproduced without this entire header section unless 
  EXPRESS written permission has been obtained from hbd.org. Digests
  CANNOT be reprinted or reproduced in any format for redistribution
  unless said redistribution is at absolutely NO COST to the consumer.
COPYRIGHT for individual posts within each Digest is held by the
  author. Articles cannot be extracted from the Digest and
  reprinted/reproduced without the EXPRESS written permission of the 
  author. The author and HBD must be attributed as author and source in
  any such reprint/reproduction. (Note: QUOTING of items originally
  appearing in the Digest in a subsequent Digest is exempt from the
  above. Home brew clubs NOT associated with organizations having a
  commercial interest in beer or brewing may republish articles in their
  newsletters and/or websites provided that the author and HBD are
  attributed. ASKING first is still a great courtesy...)

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 14:35:16 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: Some diabetes/beer meanderings

I usually like Steve Alexanders postings, even if not always directly
relevant, he likes to play in the world of biochemistry in his head.  I
think it's kind of fun, too.

Three big boo-boos though:

>  glucogenic pathways 
> can convert proteins and fats(the big energy store) into glucose.

You might be able to convert fats to glucose on paper, Steve, but the
human body can't do it... That's what keto-acidosis is all about, and
why the brain gets starved in hypoglycemia.

Otherwise Steve described the process pretty well.  2 VERY important
points are missed though.

#1 What is a dextrin limit for a human?  We basically have the same
enzymatic engineering for starch reduction as yeast.  Our first amylase
meets with starch in your spit and starts wacking off the 1,4 bonds. 
The mucosa of the stomach has a 1,6 Glucosidase that is analogous to the
other "mashing" enzyme.  Farther in the gut are other surprises.

The question is, what is the difference in affinity between what my
buddy the yeast has got and what I've got.  How many of these dextrins
are utilizable as a food source? I'm guessing not a whole lot (anybody
got a calorimeter in their bathroom?)

That we are not great at getting at whole varieties of saccharides, is
documented by the fact that whole classes of tri-saccharides are
affectionately titled "flatulence factors", since foods with large
ammounts of these (say, beans) pass through our guts unmolested, until
they are knocking on the door of your colon at the end of the small
intestine.  There a roar of "yippee!" is heard from a collection of
methane producing bacteria, as they begin to dine on these untouched
goodies, and we all know the sound of distant thunder that results, and
the fact that it has given us such musical wonders as "Louie the Lip and
the Blue Flames" (it was a great act until the drummer set his pants on
fire).

As Steve points out, starch is not just starch. Spuds (or "potatoes"
according to my sources at Quayle College) are loaded with lots of
simple 1,4 amylose strings that we merrily hack to bits, while bananas
and rice are richer in 1,6 bonds (IT gets a new name
"amylopectin"...cool).

The question is: how much real coloric food value is there in the
dextrins in beer that the yeast couldn't manage?

Anybody know?  I've long been curious.

#2 The most important quote Steve brought up was:

> "Although it is possible to visualize pathways by which ethanol could be 
> converted to glucose, ethanol is actually a poor gluconeogenic 
> precursor.  In fact ethanol strongly inhibits gluconeogenesis and can 
> bring about hypoglycemia[low BGL], a potentially dangerous decrease in 
> blood glucose levels."

In terms of coloric value, yep, alcohol is about half way between
carbohydrates and fats.... but that is meaningless to the diabetic.

Alcohol is a toxin that occupies quite a bit of your livers attention in
dealing with.  While you do generate some energy stores in breaking it
down, you shift your NAD and FAD supplies into a metabolic corner that
precludes  gluoneogenesis, glucagon secretion, and glygogen cleaving.

Alcohol IS diabetogenic.

If I had diabetes, I'd probably be nuts enough to try this, and I don't
reccomend aanyone else doing it, but if my two propositions hold (not
much food value in beer dextrins, alcohol inhibits internal glucose
regulation) then it probably makes no difference whether you intake
alcohol as beer, or equivalent ammounts of alcohol in Vodka.... it would
probably create the smae insulin demand.

Alcohol is amazing stuff, and no wonder it has taken such a profound
place in our culture with it's wide ranging effects, but part of getting
"good and drunk" might just be a touch of hypoglycemia in the brain.

Whoever thought a "sugar free diet" could be so fun?

Dr. Pivo


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 12:55:43 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Sundries

George de Piro is curious about ATC refractometers. I have one of these
handheld models for determining moisture content in honey. The "ATC"
feature consists of a little thermometer set into the body of the
instrument calibrated +1 t0 -1%. One reads the moisture content directly
in % then consults the thermometer to obtain a correction used to
account for the change in refractive index of sugar with temperature.

While on the subject of refractometry for alcohol determination I think
it noteworthy that the ASBC procedure calls for preparation of a
distillation (or other method) calibration curve for each beer, or at
least each typle of beer, made by a brewery. This must be to allow for
the RI influence of the residual sugars, proteins etc.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Amen to Dr. Pivo's comments on the suitability of diacetyl in some
styles of beer. I heard professional brewers say things like "There is
no place for diacetyl in a lager" to which I say "baloney". I guess its
a matter of taste. Further to taste, the taste impressions of diacetyl
vary according to what it is presented with and the level. At low levels
(i.e. 2 -3 time threshold as in Bohemian Pils) it synergizes with the
malt to give that wonderful round, nutty, caramel quality. At higher
levels it develops the butterscotch-sweet characteristic which, I agree,
can be unpleasant. At higher levels still I'm told it begins to taste
more butyric i.e. like rancid butter but, fortunately, I have never
experienced this. The honeylike quality Dr. Pivo mentions is usually
associated with 2,3- pentane dione, a simlar "vicinal diketone"
(diacetyl is 2,3 butane dione). Finally, the assay for diacetyl is, (for
mortal souls without access to a chromatograph) nettlesome but not
terribly so. A 250 ml sample of the beer is placed in a distilling flask
with column and condenser and 30 ml distillate collected below the
surface of a solution of hydroxylamine hydrochloride so that the
diacetyl is converted to dimethylglyoxime. A CO2 atmosphere must be
maintained in the apparatus during the procedure. The distillate is
placed in a water bath to allow the alcohol to evaporate, the volume
standardized and then a metal salt (nickle sulfate in the old days,
ferrous sulfate more recently) is added which forms a color complex with
the dimethyl glyoxime. The depth of color is measured with a
spectrophotometer. Standardization is with dimethyl glyoxime

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Dave Burley suggests that sulfites will form volatile organic compounds
with aldehydes and ketones. Excellent. Sweep 'em out with CO2. You'll
have to sweep out the excess SO2 anyway. Even small quantities of
sulfites in beer can be tasted initially so this has to be done. In fact
the metabite will have to be oxidized to sulfate in order to get rid of
the sulfitic taste. Remember that I'm offering this idea for
consideration at this point - no advocating it.

As I can't measure diacetyl for the moment, I was limited to what I
could experiment with this weekend. About all I could think of to try
was to measure the ORP (oxidation - reduction potential) of beer and
then add some metabite to see if the ORP dropped appreciably. It does,
of course, drop but not so much as I'd hoped when I use a dose
corresponding to half a Campden tablet per gallon.   Note that ORP
measurement in the open air is a tricky business and I really need to do
some more experiments under nitrogen.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I hope that anyone who had a look at my redox equation in #2996 can
figure out that the "C=O" should be in the middle of the vertical
arrangement and not off all by itself. The system slipped a couple of
extra spaces into the main line.
- --
A. J. deLange
Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 07:43:28 -0500
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: re: Green Acres

     Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com> writes in part:
     >>>>>
     It has been my long time goal to make beer from dirt.

     {snip}

     Can humus be too acidic?
     <<<<<
     I doubt it, but there may be something else in the soil affecting pH.
     Humus usually is a very good thing which helps mellow the soil.
     >>>>>
     I put lime down last year, but it was after the fact.
     What pH should the soil be and how does one measure it.
     <<<<<
     I'm not sure what the ideal pH is for growing hops, but most plant
     will tolerate a reasonable range around pH 7.  The best way to find
     out what you have is get a soil test.  Take a sample and have it
     tested.  Most gardening magazines will give you an idea where to get
     it tested or ask your county agent.  The testing organization often
     will make a recommendation for soil amendments, especially if you tell
     them what you want to grow.

     Cheers!

     Lou in Austin
     "Learning to Garden in Central Texas is like learning to scuba dive in
     the artic.  If you can do it here, you can do it anywhere."
     ---- Now go have a beer...


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 08:30:10 -0500
From: Ian_Forbes at AICI.COM (Ian Forbes)
Subject: Corrections to the Diabetes Post



Just a quick and appreciative "thank you" to Jeff Renner, A. J.
deLange, and especially Steve Alexander for their input and
corrections to my post on beer and diabetes.  These guys have
once again shown us the depth and scope of their knowledge.

Thanks again guys,

Ian
Hamden, CT


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 09:30:52 -0400
From: "Russ Hobaugh" <Russ_Hobaugh at erm.com>
Subject: newbie questions

I just tasted my second batch of beer, a special bitter.  The taste, color,
and aroma were GREAT.
BUT, I noticed as I was conditioning, that on many of the bottles there was
a film/debris stuck to
the sides of the bottles.  This settled to the bottom, but on opening it
can get riled up in the beer.  Where
did this come from, and what is it.  This was a extract/grain batch, boiled
with 3 gallons of water.  I cooled
the wort in my sink with cold water, stirring occasionally.  I stirred it
after it was cool(I think that was a mistake),
and let it ferment for 2 weeks.  On bottling, added gelatin.  I dissolved
this in cool water and it got all gooey
(mistake #2?).  I was told that the gelatin would create a thick sludge on
the bottom of the bottles, but this did not happen.
It only seems that the bottles towards the end of the 5 gallon batch are
affected.  Had one of the
first bottles and it was perfect.  I would love to know why this happened
to I can avoid it in the future.

Also, anyone have a recipe that would be close to Guinness?? I am trying to
get my brother involved
in homebrewing, and he wants to try to make Guinness.  Private emails are
fine. TIA

Russ Hobaugh
Goob Dog Brewery
Birdsboro PA




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 09:44:15 -0400 
From: Anderson Andy W NSSC <AndersonRW at NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Spirit of Free Beer

Spirit of Free Beer contest announcement

Brewers United for Real Potables (BURP) will hold the seventh annual Spirit
of Free Beer (SoFB) on May 22-23, 1999.  This is the largest homebrew
competition in the Washington, DC metropolitan area, and SoFB is also an
MCAB qualifier. Get your entries in for fantastic prizes and a chance to
qualify for the MCAB.  Please check out our web site at
http://burp.org/SoFB99/ <http://burp.org/SoFB99/>  for more information.
If you have any interest in judging, please contact our Judge Coordinator,
Tom Cannon, at judges at burp.org <mailto:judges at burp.org> 
If you have any other questions, please feel free to contact me at
Andy at BURP.org <mailto:Andy at BURP.org> 


Thanks,

Andy Anderson
99 SoFB
Contest Organizer


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 03:56:39 -0600
From: John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us>
Subject: Decline of home brewing

Dear Folks,

I a recent BT editorial
(http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue7.1/editorial.html),

Stephen Mallery refers to a decline in home brewing and what can be done
about it.  I'd like to toss in an idea.

I started brewing because my wife, with no hint from me whatsoever,
bought me a kit as a present.  I was polite, but I thought, "Why would I
want a hobby that will force me to drink bad beer when there is so much
good beer readily available in the stores?"  I was genuinely surprised
when I learned that I could make good beer.  I was surprised because I
had never tasted a single home brewed beer that I liked.

Surprise is also the reaction when friends taste a beer of mine and
discover it actually tastes good.  They, too, have never experienced
that.  I just had a conversation with a friend who says she has
relatives who brew, and they have only made one she can drink.  (And she
does like good beer.)

In short, there are a lot of home brewers out there who are not making
good products, and they are creating a negative image.  Who are they?  I
don't think they are reading this or any other similar list.  I don't
think they are going to club meetings.  I don't think they are
competing.

I know of a couple myself, and this is their profile:  They started with
kits as a lark, not really knowing how to do it.  They made some
batches, making the same mistakes I did on my first ones.  However,
whereas I then went out and sought (and, luckily, found) expert advice
to correct my errors, they are going on as before, sucking on their
syphon hoses, making silly hopping decisions, etc.

I think the problem is that help is often not readily available for
people like that, and if it isn't readily available, they aren't going
to get it.  In our area, you can buy beginner supplies in a lot of big
stores that don't have a single person who can answer even the most
basic question on staff.  I never knew a real home-brew shop existed
until--by chance--someone sent me to the one I use now.  I don't
remember how I got started with HBD and its resources, but, again, I had
to be led here somehow.  Even I do not belong to our local club--just
haven't gotten around to it--so I have learned nothing from it.

In summary, if you are a rank beginner who starts on a whim, you really
don't know where to go to get the little tips that make so much
difference in your beer, the little things we all do (or don't do) so
routinely we barely think about it.  You may not realize what is
possible, and how easy it is to go from bad beer to good beer.

I am suggesting, then, that those who are pretty confident about their
wares and skills do some promoting outside the normal circles, because
the normal circles, as I said before, do not include these people.  This
could include beginner courses in whatever local system you have for
these sorts of things.  It could include having a party on big brew day
in May in which you invite people outside that normal brewing circle to
a beer making barbecue.

A local club could sponsor (and advertise) events that are not
competitions but are instead exchanges of ideas and recipes.  Brian
Rezac's recent post mentioning the use of coconut reminds me of a recent
event like this in Boulder at which I got to taste his excellent chai
(sp?) beer.  In this event, a local establishment was set up so that you
came in, paid $5, and spent the day tasting the wares of the local
microbreweries and a few home brewers, like Brian.  You got to ask them
questions about how they did whatever they were doing.  They even had a
local radio station broadcasting from the place and doing interviews
with some of the participants.  It was fun and informative at the same
time.

Just some thoughts.
- --
John Adsit
Boulder, Colorado
jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 09:26:54 -0500
From: "Boscos Nshville Brewing Co." <boscos at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Beer Judging - Style Guidelines

Beer Judging - Style Guidelines
Reading the recent thread on the digest concerning the BJCP and homebrew
contests, I thought as a long time BJCP judge I might offer my perspectives.
In my opinion, both the AHA and BJCP style guidelines have two very
worthwhile functions. First, they serve as an educational tool that
describes traditional beer styles in a general manner. To assume that all
beers somehow fit these guidelines is absurd. The idea of style guidelines
in most foreign countries is, well, foreign to brewers and consumers alike.
As Americans we have this need to label and categorize. The guidelines,
however, can play a role in spreading a general understanding of the
wonderful diversity of the variety of beers brewed around the world.
Second, the guidelines, and BJCP judging methods, are an effective, but not
perfect, means of making a very subjective pleasure, beer consumption, into
an objective exercise, beer judging. A competition director compiles a
competition packet that states the guidelines and methods that will be used
to evaluate the beer. A brewer can then decide for himself if he wants his
beers judged to these standards, which to some extent are always imperfect
in some way. To judge beers simply on parameters such as appearance and
flavor with no guidelines would turn a competition into a subjective
exercise, guided simply by the judges likes and dislikes.
No system is perfect. Using this method, the best beer may not win a
competition. But if it works correctly, a brewer who has demonstrated
technical brewing skill and expertise in producing a beer that fits certain
guidelines will be rewarded for his efforts. Conversely just because a beer
does not meet style guidelines does not mean it is a bad beer.
If you disagree with this approach, you have several choices. The simplest
one is to not enter competitions. Or you may work with the BJCP or a local
homebrew competition to develop an alternative method. Or you could organize
your own competition.
Of all the recent postings I have read on the digest dealing with
competitions and judging, I have failed to see anyone mention the most
important reason to hold, or enter, a competition. Judging and awarding
prizes in an integral part of a competition. But the best competitions I
have participated in have a different primary goal. That is, produce an
event that celebrates the camaraderie and excitement that most homebrewers
have. In short, organize a community event that is educational, stimulating
and most of all fun. It never hurts to support the hobby by entering beers
into competitions.

Chuck Skypeck




Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 10:29:54 -0400 
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: Murphy's Stout


>Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:56:34 -0500
>From: Clark <clark at capital.net>
>Subject: "proofing yeasts"
>
>I had a Murphys Irish Stout a couple weeks ago.  Now in my book, hot dogs,
>beans and Genny Creams cover the ten basic food groups so this stout was a
>real mouthful.  I thought that it was excellent.  What type of stout is
>this considered to be?  This is the kind of beer I want to make.


Dave,
I'm a few days late getting to this, so someone may have answered you by
now.  Murphy's is one of the 3 widely available (maybe last 3 remaining?)
traditional dry Irish stouts.  The most well-known is, of course, Guinness -
brewed in Dublin.  Ask for a "beer" in Dublin and you get Guinness.
Murphy's is brewed in Cork.  Personally, this one is my favorite, although
that's blasphemy in most circles.  You wouldn't want to say that out loud in
a Dublin pub.  Beamish (not sure where in Ireland it's brewed off hand) is a
distant third in my book. 

I think the "standard" recipe is 70% pale malt, 15% roasted unmalted barley,
and 15% flaked barley.  There are numerous interpretations of this, so you
can experiment til you get what you like.  The key to the style is a hefty
amount of roasted barley.  Ferment with Wyeast 1084 Irish ale yeast, or
something similar.

Scott



      



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 11:20:04 -0400
From: Paul Haaf <haafbrau1 at juno.com>
Subject: Beer Joke

This was sent to me, and I thought I'd pass it along.

  A guy walks in a bar, and buys a huge beer. Then he sees some people he

knows, and decides to say "hi" to them, but he does not want to drag his
beer 
mug with him. 
  So he sets it on a table, along with a note on a napkin stating: "I
spit in 
this beer", hoping that no one would steal it. 

Upon return, he sees another note saying "Me too!"


Paul Haaf
They're coming to take me away, Haha - Napoleon XIII

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 11:23:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Big Brew / Diacetyl

Brain writes:
>John, I never said that the recipe was wrong.  I said it was
>inefficient.  What is "wrong" in brewing?  There have been mistakes
>and un-intended series of events that have turned into what we now
>refer to as classic beer styles.  I could see someone saying that it
>would be wrong to put coconut in a porter.  However, Ichiri Fujiura
>did just that and won the AHA 1998 Homebrewer of the Year.

It is not wrong to brew. Brewing itself is a good thing. I think any
encouragement to get new people brewing is good for the hobby. I don't think
disseminating misinformation is useful to anyone. Brewer's used to make
drinkable beer from sugar-laced extract, old hops and bread yeast, but I
wouldn't recommend that a beginner start out this way. It has been proven
through trial and error, that good extract, fresh hops, and cultured yeast
make better beer. It has been shown that adding starchy adjuncts to wort
without the presence of active enzymes results in a poorer quality product
than if these starches were exposed to amylase and properly reduced to
sugars. The only unintended new style that might result from 100's of home
brewers producing starch laden wort is perhaps "Black Lambic Drain-O", but
who knows it might catch on. With the relative unfermentablity of this wort
and the high percentage of unconverted starch, thousands of bottle-grenades
in hundreds of households all across America could be the final result! This
certain seems like an odd way of honoring/remembering somebody who has done
a lot for homebrewing (Bob McCracken). Would he have approved?

The only possible way to use the listed recipe and also promote good brewing
practice is for the extract recipe to call for diastatic malt extract with a
temperature rest in the proper range for the amalyse to work (i.e. -
mashing). Perhaps lemons could be turned into lemonade here by making it a
point to express the need of active enzymes when using starchy adjuncts in
extract recipes. The AHA could dispel this bad practice with national
exposure! (Although it will directly contradict methods published in
Papazian's own books). Will you take this route? or let this misinfo
continue to propagate?

It simply is not possible to successfully brew all styles of beer using malt
extracts. You might come close and you might inadvertently invent a new
style, but you will have to settle for that. I'm sure Ichiri Fujiura's
coconut porter did not win as a classic example of a porter (at least I
*hope* not). It's not wrong to put coconut in a porter, but it certainly
isn't any recognized style of porter, just a damn tasty beer (to some).

- --

Dr Pivo posted a nice bit on diacetyl. I have always thought that diacetyl
smelled honey-like and could never get the connection to butter or even
butterscotch. I recently brewed a decoction mashed 100% 2 row barley wine
(how's that for bucking style tradition!). I thought it had the most
wonderful honey aroma. I had George De Piro taste it a few weeks ago at a
comp and he immeadiately said it smelled very buttery. Later that evening I
had my wife smell it. After a few moments she ruled that it smelled of
butterscotch.

Later,

John
- -- 
John Varady                     The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
Boneyard Brewing                Custom Neon Beer Signs For Home Brewers
Glenside, PA                            Get More Information At:
rust1d at usa.net                  http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady 



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 11:31:20 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Broken Thermometer

Jeff Fabrizio ( jethro at i1.net ) wrote about his broken thermometer.  When
 I
have done this ( more times than I care to admit ) I have found that the
balls are magnetic which means that they are steel and harmless for the
most part.  Check them with a magnet.  As for the wax, I drank the beer 
and
I seem to be OK or rather not so bad that anyone would be willing to 
bring
it up to my face at least not in public very often when my wife is 
around. 



Dan Listermann      dan at listermann.com     72723.1707 at compuserve.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 11:41:42 -0400
From: Tidmarsh Major <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: Re: Aluminum pots

I have a 10-gal aluminum pot that I used for a couple of years for both
crawfish boils and brewing, and I never had a problem with it.  I am
currently using an enamel canning pot with an Easymasher for a spigot.
I quit using the aluminum pot only because I've moved and it's more
convienient to brew in the kitchen than outside in my new house, and
because I was a little nervous about drilling a hole in an expensive
10-gal pot.  The Easymasher works great for filtering break.  I
whirlpool the cooled wort with my immersion chiller, and when everything
settles, the hops form a filter bed over the screen and keep out much of
the break.  When the new deck and backyard are finished, I'll likely put
an Easymasher in the aluminum kettle and move back outdoors.

Regards,
Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Alabama



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 09:39:16 -0600
From: jpugh at hjnews.com (Jeremy B. Pugh)
Subject: RE: how do you chill and transfer from boil to fermenter?

>Question...how do you chill and transfer from boil to fermenter?
>nathan in madison, WI

J. Doug Brown responded:
Nathan,
  "I built a counter concurrent wort chiller that I use to do just that.
It is made entirely out of copper, cost me $56 in materials...Using 25' for
the coil should reduce the cost to around $30."

I say:
Williams Brewing sells an easy to use, ready-to-roll wort chiller for
$28.50 plus S&H.
Check out: http://www.williamsbrewing.com/wort.htm

I spent 20 minutes at the plumbing supply store to buy an adapter for my
quirky faucet.
It seems like the time and effort to build J. Doug Brown's project would
offset the S&H. Plus shipping and handling is free if you order $50 worth
of stuff at Williams, surely there are a few bips and bobs to complete your
brewery that could make up the difference.
But hey, you might be into the MacGyver thing.

PS: No. I don't work for Williams but they've always been great when I
couldn't get things locally.


Jeremy, Logan Utah







Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 08:57:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Abene <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: beer and diabetics

Hi all, 

I have been married to an insulin dependent diabetic for 13 years now
and have noticed many things. 

One is if you don't have control of your diabetes and drink and eat
poorly you will die. The other is that if you eat right, check your
sugar levels often and get your A1C level down to something that is
not frightening you live a pretty normal life. 

My wife is currently on an insulin pump, has a A1C of 5.2 and an
average blood glucose level of 90-110. She is in fantastic control.
She also loves beer. She is not a heavy drinker and she does not
normally consume to become drunk. Her average beer consumption is two
beers. 

She has found that a big beer (1.060 and up OG) is roughly 15 carbs
which equals roughly 1 unit of insulin. 

Note: she said that when she was "needle dependent" that beer rarely
changed her glucose levels but with the tighter control of her
insulin pump she does notice changes. 

For her I think it all boils down to being in ultimate control of her
diabetes. I personally think that if you are an out of control
diabetic that is living off fast food and beer while not monitoring
your glucose levels or calorie/carb intake etc. that you are on a
suicide quest. 

Also remember that diabetes hits everyone in different ways some
people live a very normal life with it others experience many
complications no matter what they do. 

I will probably get flamed on some of these statements but oh well. 
I also am not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV or anywhere else
(well, there was that time with Jeanine Bucek but... hmmmm errr never
mind).

Ultimately check with your doctors and get under control and keep
control. I have learned a lot after being around my wife for almost
16 years... I have learned how to spot high  sugar levels, low sugar
levels. I have learned that doctors are either educated about 
diabeted or they are witch doctors that can scare the shit of a
diabetic because they have not kept up with their knowledge on the
subject. 

I have also learned that no person no matter how young or old
deserves to live with diabetes. All of you that homebrew or know
homebrewers or even regular drinkers that are diabetec need to
educate yourselves about what you really need to do to live without
making yourselves casualties of this disease. 

Check out some of the Diabetic medical sites on the web. Check out
some of the support groups and chats (like Melissa's chat). Teach
yourself to live better and eat right. 

Well, enough preaching from me. 

I will now go back to more important things like Slamming Charlie P
and his AHA carnival!

C'ya!

 -Scott "I don't need no stinking badges" Abene



===

ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT
Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>
http://skotrat.dynip.com/skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)

"The More I know About Cathy Ewing, The More The AHA SUCKS"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 12:11:31 -0400
From: "Nix, Andrew" <anix at bechtel.com>
Subject: Re: Murphy's stout

In response to Jeff and Dave's discussion of stouts, I disagree as well.
Murphy's is not what I would catagorize as a sweet stout, but rather a dry
stout like Guinness.  

On another note, in my trip to Ireland last summer, in talking with many
people about beer, many, MANY Irishmen with tell you that Murphy's taste
like a bad pint of Guinness.  I personally disagree, and think that Murphy's
is a fine example of the style that is the dry stout.

Andrew C. Nix
Frederick, MD (Long way from Jeff Renner)



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 12:31:29 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: Refractometers

Hi George:

I don't have your catalog in front of me (where are you looking?), but
often ATC is necessary for "in-line" refractometers.  I used to make
food ingredients (the stuff that goes in the stuff you eat) and we used
ATC refractometers mounted in the piping of certain processes.  

ATC is also useful when measuring medium to high-solids starch pastes.
They turn opaque when cool which ruins any chance of obtaining an
accurate measurement.  However, in brewing neither of these situations
are particularly relevant unless you have oodles of cash to justify the
in-line approach.  Go cheaper and you'll be fine.

Cheers!
Marc


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 13:09:33 -0400
From: Bob.Sutton at fluordaniel.com
Subject: CHEAP pH Meter ?

As I was browsing though my local Brookstone store, I noticed a pH meter to test
plant soil conditions was available for under $20.  The analog display scale was
such that one could eyeball the 5-6 range and perform a decent interpolation. 
Of course there's the question of the underlying instrument accuracy.  Although
this appealed to my frugal character - but my skeptic side prevailed and I left
it on the shelf.

It looked as though the probe was simply a metallic spike - no gel, etc.. Has
anyone tested one of these.

>From the foothills of Sawth Caroliner...

Bob
Fruit Fly Brewhaus
Yesterdays' Technology Today


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:22:20 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Refractometers, sweet stout,butter

Brewsters:

George De Piro asks why refractomers need temperature
compensation. It is true as you say that the liquid in the drop
refractometer will come to the temperature of the quartz plate
quickly, but the temperature of the quartz plate will not always
be at the standard temperature ( typically 20C or 25C).
As you know, temperature does affect the density of the liquid
and therfore the refractivity. To get an accurate reading,
therefore, either the instrument must be at a standard
temperature ( the best) or some sort of assumption must
be made about the temperature dependence of the liquid
density and therefore the refractivity. Dilute aqueous
solutions will most likely have a similar expansion coefficient
over a modest temperature range.

This should give you some pause when you realize the use
of refractometers in the wine industry is to estimate the Brix
of the grape juice while out in the field. Without temperature
compensation a substantial error can be made in  this
estimate and grapes can be picked too early or too late,
causing contractual problems
 .
I really wonder about the use of the refractometer for judging
beer alcohol content, since unlike grape juice where the major
component is sugar, beer has a substantial quantity of other
dissolved substances. I would imagine that the OG &FG
of the beer would be very important factors in the use of this
instrument for this purpose. Do you know  of an established
procedure for doing this??
- ----------------------------------------------
I <knew> I was going to get into trouble for saying 

that Murphy's Stout was sweet. Jeff Renner was the 

instrument, pointing out that he and Michael Jackson
both agree that Murphy's Stout is a dry stout.  


How can I argue with Jeff Renner and Michael Jackson
even though my tastebuds tell me otherwise?

Unfortunately, my books on Stout are further away from me
than Jeff Renner, so I can't check the profiling for Murphy's
in Stout Classical Series. Perhaps another HBDer could do
so.

In the meantime, M&BS p251 1st ed says:

Grist           Malt Stout              Sweet Stout

Caramel         3%              2%
Black Malt              4%              3.5
Pale-Ale                93%             

Glucose Syrup                   2.5%
Wheat Flour                     10%
Mild-Ale Malt                   82%
Hops            1.0 lb/brl              0.6 lb/brl
OG              1.037           1.040
Primings for Malt Stout - 2 pints/brl in fermentation vessel
                    2 pints/brl in racking back or
                    conditioning tank
                     SG = 1.150 


Priming for Sweet Stout - 8 pints/brl at SG = 1.150

these are old British units.  a Pint is 20 ounces and a 

barrel is 43.2 US gallons for those who wish to use
this as a starting point in a formulation. Caramel is
another name for crystal malt. Mild Ale malt is slightly
darker (6-7 EBC) than pale ale (5 EBC) malt.                    


Therefore, the primary differences are the hopping 

level 1.0 lbs/brl for dry vs 0.6 lbs/brl for sweet.  For
perspective, bitter has hops at 0.8 lbs/brl and
mild ale at 0.7 lbs/brl.

I am not quite sure what to make of the difference in the
primings level. The levels given for Malt Stout are the same
as for all the other beers in the table  Does it mean the
Sweet Stout is higher carbonated or is it that not all
the primings are consumed by the time the customer
is served? If this latter condition were the case ( unlikely
in today's business), then I could see that there might be
a difference in sugar content. Otherwise, the primary
difference between sweet and dry stouts is the hopping
level. It is my impression that this is exactly the case in
today's world. Murphy's "softer" taste is due to a lower
hopping level which allows me to taste more of the
sweetness in the background, compared to Guinness.

What used to be called Milk Stout is of course very sweet
with added lactose which is not yeast fermentable.

Another diffference likely is the mashing temperature.
p 609 op cit
Guinness Stout has % unfermented matter of 39%
and Mackeson of 49%. Alcohol content is 4.4-5.1 for
Guinness versus 3.7-3.8 for Mackeson. Guinness'
 OG is 1.040-1.046 and Mackeson is 1.044 -1.047.
Mackeson is obviously brewed at a higher mash
temperature to produce a higher level of unfermentables.
Iso-humulones for Guinness are 55-62 ppm and
Mackeson has 27-31. It appears that Mackeson is, at least
analytically, a sweet stout based on the above table.
I had always assumed that Murphy's ( less so than
Mackeson's) and Mackeson's were sweet stouts
based on my tastebuds.

If we accept this argument then we see that there
is no sweet versus dry quantum leap controversy,
rather a continuous spectrum of flavors -
bitter balancing the sweet in stouts.  The overall 

perception ( sweet or dry) of the drinker is what matters,
but is an individual assessment, since drinkers have
different sensitivities to bitterness and sweetness.

Even with Guinness, supposedly THE example of
dry stout, the export stout in small bottles varies from the
kegged stout and the Caribbean version is different from
the Dublin version in the sweetness/bitterness ratio. 

However in each of these cases it is clear that bitterness
predominates and why I think of it as a "dry" Stout.
In other stouts, such a predominance is not so clear.

When the hop character is not pronounced and the
background sweetness from the dextrins is evident,
I call this a sweet stout.  Thus Clini...would not be useful
in distinguishing a sweet stout from  a dry one, since
sweet stouts by this definition do not necessarily have
reducing sugars in them.

I came across another comment of interest on p397
M&BS said that in stouts FWH (first wort hopping)
 is used. They didn't use this silly terminology,
but said that all the hops were added and
kept simmering while the copper was filled. Maybe
this is one of those magic processing tips for which all
of us Stoutsters have been searching. I'll give it
a try next time.
- ---------------------------------------------------
Dr. Pivo - diacetyl reportedly is used as the major flavoring
ingredient in "butter" flavoring, so diacetyl does have
a butter flavor in high enough concentrations, but is
most likely detected in beers as butterscotch, especially
when it is in the presence of other diones, which often
have a honey-like aroma. I also like diacetyl,
in moderation, but not in my lagers.
- ---------------------------------------------------

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 18:32:35 +0000
From: "J. Doug Brown" <jbrown at labyrinth.net>
Subject: Chiller, Hot and Cold Break questions

Ok, I'll admit it, I a little wet behind the ears here, so here I go.  I
was reading and saw the mention that beer in contact with trub can cause
off flavors. It is also my understanding that trub was a combination of
yeast sedimentation, hot and cold breaks and hops or other particulate
matter which settles.  My questions are these:

1) During my initial boiling with John Bull LME 6.6 pounds to product
4.5 gallons wort, I noticed light/white colored particles floating the
the boiling wort that would settle after I stopped stirring the wort. 
Is this white/light colored stuff hot break?

2) I am using a counter concurrent wort chiller to reduce the
temperature of the boiling wort to 55F (last time) 70F (next batch)
usually takes 5 seconds to flow through the chiller, is this
sufficiently fast to produce a cold break?

3) Should I be filtering out the hot and cold breaks prior to placing
the wort in my primary? Should I rack to the secondary sooner to remove
most of the trub? Should I do multi-stage racking ie after 1 day, after
5 days, then bottle after 14 days?

4) Will a hot and cold break be possible using only extract brewing?

5) For the Brewoff, using the Collaborator Milk Stout, is there a recipe
for extract only brewers, or should I just brew a pale ale and be happy
joining in on that day.

Thanks for your thoughts
J. Doug Brown
jbrown at labyrinth.net
http://www.labs.net/jbrown


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 13:37:33 -0500 
From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
Subject: Hop Shoots

Just thought I would pass along an experience with hop shoots,   I collected
some (about 4 to 6 inches long each) and fryed them in butter with some salt
(to taste) and garlic powder (to taste).  Damn good eatin!  If you grow
hops, now is the time to try it before the shoots loose their purple color,
after which they are too tough to eat.  Kind of tasted like Birds Eye
'bavarian green beans', with out the grean bean flavor.  

If anyone else has a recipe, I would like to see it and give it a try.

Rich Sieben


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:27:10 -0400
From: Chuck Cubbler <chuck at maguire.com>
Subject: Sam Adams Summer Ale Clone

A few days ago, Tom Puskar asked for recipes for a SA Summer Ale clone.  No 
one (I think) has responded so far, so here's my recipe, thanks to Phyllis 
at Beercrafters (no affiliation, yada, yada).....

5 Gallon, Partial Mash

3# Malted Wheat
1# Belgian Carapils

Single Infusion  at  ~152?F, 1 hr., 1? qts per #
Sparge with 5 qts  at  168?F

3.3# Northwestern Weizen LME
1# Wheat DME
2 oz Czech Saaz 3.2%
Fresh Lemon Zest (yellow outer skin) from 2 lemons
? tsp Paradise Seeds, Crushed

60 min boil, add hops, zest, seeds after 45 min
Wyeast Belgian Wheat (#3942)

OG= 1.032, FG= 1.007

This was not quite a copy, but very tasty indeed.  I'll be making more 
soon.

==========================================
Chuck Cubbler
Homebrewin', Harley Ridin' Libertarians of New Jersey
Take the Quiz  http://www.self-gov.org/lp-quiz.shtml
==========================================


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 16:47:16 -0500
From: "Brett A. Spivy" <baspivy at softdisk.com>
Subject: A Newbie Brewer Question . . .

Take a trip back in time . . .You have all the knowledge you have
aquired from homebrewing still intact, you have been brewing now long
enought to have made literally dozens of batches, but somehow you have
NO equipment!!!  You can spend what you need to, but not to
extravagance, and to top it all off you likely will have to make your
first few batches with the assistance of your dumb brother-in-law doing
all the actually "hands-on" work (we'll assume for our little exercise
that you cannot DO anything - justgive instructions).  Your batches will

not be larger than 5-6 gallons, you will start a new batch every
two-three weeks, and your beer tastes have turned towards stouts and
porters (with the occasional batch of Canoe beer for the wife).  Now:
What equipment would you buy?  How much would it all cost together?  Who

would you buy it from (over the net)?  Does anyone that you know of sell

all of this in a kit?  Remember that you need to defend each of these
answers to the wife.

Thanx . . .
Brett A. Spivy



Return to table of contents

---