---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Broken thermometer in Brew Pot! (Rich Moore)
  Klages Malt ("Stanley E. Prevost")
  Ringwood Yeast (Dave Humes)
  Diabetics and Homebrew. (The Greenman)
  Murphy Stout Post ... Re: (Scott Bridges) (The Greenman)
  cheap chiller ("Penn, John")
  Diacetyl (Matt Brooks)
  Stainless Steel Sink? (Jeffry D Luck)
  Help -> Belgian beers... (John S Thompson)
  Unpleasant Yeast Infection ("Greg Mueller")
  base malts (JPullum127)
  Murphy's Irish Stout (John Adsit)
  Diacetyls III: confusing ("Dr. Pivo")
  sulfite/aldehyde, gelatin, outfitting, dry stout (Dave Burley)
  Diacetyls IV: Got'cha! ("Dr. Pivo")
  Hop shoots (Gail Elber)
  Re:  A Newbie Brewer Question/ and a question of my own ("Eric McIndoo")
  Diacetyl (Joel Plutchak)
  Promoting Homebrewing & Big Brew '99 ("Brian Rezac")
  RE: Beer Judging - Style Guidelines (PRS) - CPC" <PRS at NA2.US.ML.COM>
  RE:newbie (John Lifer)
  On Aluminum Pots.... ("Bill Tobler")
  water softeners (Lou.Heavner)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

Enter the Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99. Details at
http://burp.org/SoFB99. 2000 MCAB Qualifier!
Enter the Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99.  Details on the HBD Competition
Calendar for June 1999 (http://hbd.org). 2000 MCAB qualifier!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 20:59:22 -0400
From: Rich Moore <cinnamon at erinet.com>
Subject: Re: Broken thermometer in Brew Pot!

Jeffrey S. Favrizio wrote:

" ... I put on the kettle to boil and put the thermometer into the kettle to
check the temp. It is one of the glass floating types. Unfortunately, when
I went to remove the thermometer, I noticed that it had broken ... Has
anyone else had this happen to them, because I feel really dumb!"

There is at least one other dumb person out there.  I've had this happen
twice with floating thermometers (in my HLT).  I can't answer your
questions about contaminating the wort, but I was wondering if anyone
has come up with something to protect the fragile bottoms of these
thermometers.  There must be some gadgeteer out there with a solution.

Thanks,

Rich




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Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 20:26:00 -0500
From: "Stanley E. Prevost" <sprevost at ro.com>
Subject: Klages Malt

Hi, y'all -

The American Malting Barley Association no longer recommends Klages barley
for malting and brewing, according to their web site.

Why would this be?  Economics?  Low quality grain because of disease?
Genetic mutation?  Increasing availability of newer and "better" varieties
of barley?  Is it not the same grain it was when it was recommended?

Some maltsters sell "brewers" malt as a mixture of AMBA approved varieties.
Some even say it includes Klages.  Is "brewers malt" the same concept as
"contractor grade" building supplies?  We all know what that means.

Oh, well.  I'm just trying to learn about malt and this is one of the first
things I run into.  Guess I will have a beer.

Stan Prevost
Huntsville, AL






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Date: Mon, 05 Apr 99 23:55:00 -0400
From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Ringwood Yeast

Greetings,

I'd like to try making an E.S.B. some day with the Ringwood yeast.  Has
anyone successfully cultured it from an unfiltered beer made with it? 
Because it is highly flocculent, will there be any yeast left to culture? 
I've heard it has higher than normal O2 requirements.  If anyone has used
it, how have you dealt with these problems?  What's an acceptable
substitute if Ringwood is just too much trouble?

Thanks in advance.

- --Dave Humes

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>                  Dave Humes
- -----------------------------------------------------------



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Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 02:52:04 -0600
From: The Greenman <greenman at sdc.org>
Subject: Diabetics and Homebrew.

Funny that this should come up.  This is probably way off of the subject
but.....

When I began my love of beer, way back in the (sarcasm) good year of
1995, I happened to be priviledged enough to be in the country of
Germany.  I foolishly got engaged to a young lass (stupid youth, I guess
it always gets us sometime) whose american host-sister was a diabetic. 
I loved the beers and so did she, but her diabetes made life
interesting.

My father, who has a passion for beer and wine, is also diabetic, so I
was very curious.  Beer is loaded with sugars, despite any attempts to
ferment the living crud out of it.  So some diabetics can go haywire
with beer.

Anyways, to make a long story short, I got a real passion for this
disease and I am attempting to make a research project out of it to
finish up my college career.  Actually, I'm interested in a type of
symptom called "periphial diabetic neuropathy"  This is a nasty little
bugger that causes people to have strange sensations in there
extremities, especially the feet.  Some of these include numbness, a
feeling of walking on gravel, intense pain caused from the slightest
pressure (i.e. a bed-sheet) and a weird sensation described as "both
exteme burning and freezing at the same time."

This whole nasty thing is caused by sugars that get trapped in the feet
or hands, are converted in to fructose, and then again converted in to a
sugar called sorbitase (at least I think that's correct, I'm far from my
notes and rather scatter brained).

Anyway, the whole nasty thing causes the nerved endings in the feet to
degrade.  Sometimes these things cause ulcers that get callused over
that the diabetic never even feels until its too late.

Sometimes it goes away, sometimes the diabetic dies with it.  It seems
to be worse at night.  There is at this time no really concrete
treatment for it.  However, I discovered something interesting.  I came
across a report about people that work hard on their feet and how they
sometimes develop alcohol poisoning in their feet.  The sensations are
strangely similar to DPN.  I got interested an went over my notes (which
as noted above are not sitting in front of me) and I found that moderate
and heavy drinkers seem to suffer from DPN more.

What does it mean?  I dunno.  I haven't graduated yet.  But its food for
thought if your diabetic. Or if you have strange sensations in your
feet.

Sorry if some of this stuff is wrong, outdated, or the terminology is
incorrect.  Its late and I haven't had a beer yet. :)

Greenman
- -- 

 .-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-.
 T. Daniel "Greenman" Griffin  
 "Knowledge is the herald of Sorrow" 
 "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars"
 Student/Spod/ANGSTer/Brother/SysAdmin  
'-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-'


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Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 02:58:07 -0600
From: The Greenman <greenman at sdc.org>
Subject: Murphy Stout Post ... Re: (Scott Bridges)

Just a little Sidenote about Beamish-

Beamish is brewed in Cork.  It is IMHO fuller bodied than Guiness with a
more robust character.  It has a sharper flavor than Murphy's, and I
personally like it better than both.

It is available is some pubs here in the states, and it can be acquired
in the same type of Draft can as Guiness.  

Definitely put it in your list of "too do" if you haven't tried it.

Oh yeah, It goes great with hearty foods like stew's, and is excellent
with oysters.

Greenman


- -- 
 .-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-.
 T. Daniel "Greenman" Griffin  
 "Knowledge is the herald of Sorrow" 
 "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars"
 Student/Spod/ANGSTer/Brother/SysAdmin  
'-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-'


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Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:27:18 -0400 
From: "Penn, John" <John.Penn at jhuapl.edu>
Subject: cheap chiller

	Todays post for making your own chiller made me want to post the
source for the chiller I bought a couple of years ago for a mere $20 at
Narrangansett homebrew.  Much cheaper than making it oneself.  It's a
bit smaller than the $40-$50 chillers at my local homebrew store but it
works great and the price was unbeatable.  The store was in ? (somewhere
in New England) so do a web search, the web page I had doesn't work
anymore.  Last time I checked the phone number on the web page was
correct but they were no longer updating the web page and the prices had
increased slightly.  If anyone does call and gets a current price,
please post.  But its worth looking into for those interested in a wort
chiller.
   John Penn
  Eldersburg, MD


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Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 11:26:38 -0400
From: Matt Brooks <mabrooks at erols.com>
Subject: Diacetyl

Another viewpoint on the Diacetyl discussion...... I (among many others
here) am not opposed to some diacetyl in my beer, it is not an offensive
flavor in low concentrations, but perhaps my palate is not as discerning
as some.  It also seems peculiar that the people who seem to despise
diacetyl so much also seem to beer judges, perhaps it is a requirement?
:^ )   On the same topic (Diacetyl), I was recently getting some lager
yeast from my favorite local brewery (Old Dominion Brewery, maker of
Tuppers and other fantastic beers) and was discussing the topic of
Diacetyl with one of the brewers.  He informed me that they were cutting
back on the amount of Crystal malt in one of their beers because
evidently too much Crystal malt can result in a false diacetyl like
taste in fresh (young) beer, although it diminishes with time, they
don't have the time to wait and hence felt they needed to do something
to resolve the "problem".  One may want to take note of this
relationship and question the amount of Crystal Malt in your recipe if
you are experiencing excessive Diacetyl flavors in your young (<2 months
old) beer, and all other factors  (good hot and cold break, quick
cooling of wort, proper pitching temps., proper fermentation temps,
etc....) don't seem to be helping.  Perhaps this is why some homebrew
beers taste better (cleaner) after a few months of age (if they have a
chance to get that old).

Matt B.
Northern, VA.



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Date: 06 Apr 1999 07:31:24 -0700
From: Jeffry D Luck <Jeffry.D.Luck at aexp.com>
Subject: Stainless Steel Sink?

Greetings gurus,

I've heard that bleach is a no-no for SS brewpots, but
I've never heard why.  I'm getting a new kitchen sink
this week and was wondering if I should go for SS or
enamal.  BTW, my usual processing involves filling
half of the kitchen sink with a clorox solution and have
it ready to sanitize my equipment as I need it.  Will
this damage a SS sink?

Jeff Luck
Salt Lake City, Utah - USA


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Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:33:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: John S Thompson <jthomp6 at unix1.sncc.lsu.edu>
Subject: Help -> Belgian beers...


I've recently had the fortune to acquire some fresh brews from Belgium.
They were brought over yesterday by a Belgian guy, so they may still have
viable yeast in them. I wanted to know if you HBDers could identify which
of the following beers have yeast worth culturing. Also, could you
identify the style of some of them? (The ones with the ???s.)

Thanks!
John

The beers:

Affligem Dubbel - Dubbel
Affligem Blond - ???
Grimbergen Cuvee Speciale - ???
Grimbergen Blond - ???
Hoegaarden De Verboden Vrucht - ???
Hoegaarden Julius - ???
Orval - Strong ale?
Mort Subite Gueuze Lambic - Gueuze Lambic
Belle-Vue Framboise - Fruit Lambic
Lindemans Kriek - Fruit Lambic
St. Bernardus Pater 6 - ???
St. Bernardus Abt 12 - ???
Pauwel Kwak - Pale Ale?
Brugs Witbier - White Beer
Tongerlo Double (Blond) - ???
Leute Bokbier - ???
Corsendonk Brown - Pale Ale?
Ingelmunster Kasteelbier - ??? 



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Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 07:36:43 PDT
From: "Greg Mueller" <brew_meister at hotmail.com>
Subject: Unpleasant Yeast Infection

Here is a quick question for the microbiologists out there. My spouse 
has had reoccurring vaginal yeast infections for the past 3 months.  She 
consumed approximately 16 ounces per day of my homemade wine for the 
past 5 months. Would it be possible for homemade wine or homebrew 
fermented with saccharomyces cerevisiae to cause or irritate candida 
albican yeast infections? Please respond privately to avoid starting up 
a most unpleasant thread! 
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:13:40 EDT
From: JPullum127 at aol.com
Subject: base malts

does anyone know a source giving info on various base malts? my local hb 
store is doing a pre-order sale with very nice prices for 50 lb. bags. i'm 
not very sure of the differences between say 2 row and pale ale malt, briess 
and dwc ect. after years of extract have now done 4 all grain and know i want 
to continue so 50 lb sounds reasonable . thanks  marc


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Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 10:13:40 -0600
From: John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us>
Subject: Murphy's Irish Stout

Scott wrote:

> I'm a few days late getting to this, so someone may have answered you by
> now.  Murphy's is one of the 3 widely available (maybe last 3 remaining?)
> traditional dry Irish stouts.  The most well-known is, of course, Guinness -
> brewed in Dublin.  Ask for a "beer" in Dublin and you get Guinness.
> Murphy's is brewed in Cork.  Personally, this one is my favorite, although
> that's blasphemy in most circles.

I'd just like to add a lttle more info about Murphy's.  I toured the
Heineken brewery/museum in Amsterdam last summer, and part of the tour
showed the kind of malt they use when they make Murphy's Irish Stout. 
Yes, it may be made in Cork, but it is owned by Heineken.  By the way,
they use a malt kilned at a higher temperature to create the color and
flavor, to no one's surprise.  The tour leaders, who were clearly told
what to say, didn't know a thing beyond the script, so the real brewing
questions were answered with polite apologies.

You can get great Murphy's logo souvenirs at the Heneken gift shop, too.

- ---
John Adsit
Boulder, Colorado
jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us


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Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 18:18:00 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: Diacetyls III: confusing

I was not going to take this discussion there, as I thought it would
cloud rather than clear the concept.

Furthermore, it would further illustrate how muddled my own thinking is
on this subject.

Having thought I had cleverly side stepped the actual chemistry of this
topic, and thereby simplified it,  A.J. DeLange (as usual) presented the
very correct following:

>  The honeylike quality Dr. Pivo mentions is usually
> associated with 2,3- pentane dione, a simlar "vicinal diketone"
> (diacetyl is 2,3 butane dione).

Now here is where it gets REALLY confusing for me.  The vicinal
diketones represent an oxidative state that one would think would be
evenly distributed over the family.

'splain this: A good Bavarian Pils tastes to me of a vicinal ketone
mixed with DMS. If you will, a combination of honey, corn, and snap
beans.  This is another one of these wonderful "middle ground" flavours
that tie the booming base notes of hop bitterness and malt flavour to
the treble of hop aroma (pardon the musical analogy, a well made glass
of beer is really like a well played symphony to me.... and few things
give me more pleasure than the composing and conducting of that frothy
number).

(psssst. as a brief aside. If I read this forum enough, I'm sure I'd
find out that even the production of DMS is a "mistake".....bloody silly
Bavarians).

Now if we accept that those chemicals are the authors of the tastes I am
percieving, let's add this:  If a German Brewmaster made a beer with
diacetyl taste in it (butterscotch), they'd stick his hydrometer so far
up his hiney that you'd only be able to read past Plato 14.

So how to reconcile.... you can make one vicinal diketone and avoid
making the other.

Beats me.

But in spite of that digression, I have dug up the old discussion on
intentional diactyl production that took place on RCB.  I find I did a
lot of repeating of the "ranting" I've done here, but I'll try and snip
out the practical "how to" parts, since I've already done more than my
share of venting:

I'll post it as soon as I figure out what a "char" is

Dr. Pivo


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Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:58:54 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: sulfite/aldehyde, gelatin, outfitting, dry stout

Brewsters:

AJ De Lange misinterpreted my comments about carbonyl
compounds forming complexes with sulfite.  These complexes
are not volatile. In many of the higher MW carbonyls these
complexes were used as a method of identification and
purification by crystallization in the days before
chromatographic purification became useful on a large
scale ( i.e. most of the history of chemistry).
- ---------------------------------------------
Russ Hobaugh produced a good beer on his second
attempt (Great!) but had some deposits on the side of the
bottles which riled up during pouring. He also used gelatin
with some difficulty at botttling.

Chances are those deposits are gelatin/yeast deposits if
I understand how you used the gelatin.

To use gelatin 1) wet it out in cold water 2) bring it just to
the boil and let it stand for 10 minutes unheated 3) mix in
a small amount of beer into the gelatin solution until you
get a fluid solution 4) put this solution into a carboy
5) Rack your beer onto this 6) avoid splashing.
7) Bottle in a few days to a week

Gelatin ( a protein) reacts with the hop tannin and other
phenolic groups, including any of the hops tannins which
have attached themselves to the walls of the yeast.
This, along with any charge neutralizatrion, brings down
the yeast to produce a yeast-free beer.  The danger is that
you will add too much gelatin, since it is a very difficult
thing to  know how much on small quantities of beer.

Too much gelatin can produce a hazy appearance but
more importantly, gelatin is removing many of those
wonderful hop tannins and ophenolics which you want
in a beer. Adding excess gelatin can produce a beer with
no life,so I never use gelatin.  Given time ( something we all
understand a newbie doesn't have!!) beer will clear by
itself, in most cases, and if it doesn't, you should go back
and look at your procedures.

Such removal of the yeast will make it difficult to get
carbonation and you should add at bottling an active starter
plus priming or kraeusen starter I've described in the
past ( see the HBD archives). In this case, you probably 

did not remove the yeast, so you got good carbonation

To reduce the amount of yeast in the bottle but still
get good carbonation, you should rack from the
primary fermenter when the fermentation slows
( 5-7 days) to a secondary carboy to allow the beer
to finish fermenting and throw a deposit. When you
bottle in a week or so the beer will be somewhat
cloudy but light will come through.  This amount of
yeast will be sufficient to provide carbonation, but
will only make a paint coat of yeast on the bottom of
the bottle, which you can avoid in your beer during
drinking by not pouring out he last half inch or so.

Store the beer in boxes or paper bags to keep the light
away from the beer.

Welcome aboard!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Brett Spivy asks for recommendations on making beer
on the cheap, but not too cheap. And not too complicated
since his dumb brother-in-law will do the work.

Brett, others might disagree, but, I would buy two cheap
4 gallon SS pots from K-Mart or similar, buy ( or beg) a
white food grade bucket or garbage can 6+ gallons, a
plastic sheet to cover it, rubber bands to daisy chain and
hold it down, a 5 gallon glass carboy for your secondary,
some clear 3/8" and 1/4"hoses from your hardware store,
an airlock and cork for the carboy, a floor capper.  This
should get you through the extract stage. If you want to do
all grain, I suggest a Gott or similar cooler for your mashtun,
if you want to do only single infusion mashes ( although
multiple temperature infusions can be done here also)
or a 5 gallon or larger cheap aluminum pot for mashing
if you want to heat  periodically. In the latter case, get a
4X8 sheet of polystyrene insulation and build a box in which
the mashtun can be stored for the various rests or use your
oven. Make or buy a large wooden paddle, which has a
polyurethane coating, for stirring. Get a cheap SS thermometer
from the hardware, supermarket or cooking supplies. Calibrate
it over the desired temperature range. ( see the archives).
Rather than just cooling the boiler pots in a cold water bath with 

gentle stirring, a counter-currrent chiller made from a 50 ' 3/8"
copper tubing and 1" garden hose and Phil's Phittings
( or make your own) would be a great addition.
- --------------------------------------------------
I have had an additonal thought or two on Dry stouts. It used
to be the practice to add stale ( i.e. sour) beer to stouts.
Guinness may or may not do so today. I can attest to the fact
that some decades ago it was still the practice, since I
have had some pretty smelly (sort of a sour dishcloth) pints
which I attributed to spoiled beer, but didn't know at the time
that it might have been planned at the brewery.  I recall that
somewhere in my readings (M&BS?) that Guinness added
up to 3% of stale beer to their beer. Such lactic - among others
 - acidity would produce an additional complexity which may or
may not also be added to sweet stouts.

I have prepared soured beer, as have others, in making stouts
( see the archives) but I never found it to be a dominant factor in
the flavor profile and I certainly did not produce that Guinness
factor - yet. 

- ----------------------------------------------------

Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley

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Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 18:33:24 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: Diacetyls IV: Got'cha!

09 Jan '99 (RCB)

Tony Barnsley wrote:

> OK Dr P, Here's another chance for you to be really boring
 
> How do you increase the level of Diacetyl in the beer?

OK, I guess you've pulled my cork, as it is an area of interest for me.

It is a very good question, and one which I wish I had some good advice
for.

I don't think I do.

<snip>

I think the truth is that each yeast strain will pitch diacetyls under
different conditions and you'll have to find out with yours what causes
it.

John Heubel wrote:

> under-oxygenating the wort (homebrewers generally do this anyway)
> chilling quickly after the ferment to shock the yeast into dormancy
> late aeration (like when going to secondary)
> under-pitching

I think this is a reasonable list to start with (except for the last one
 - "under pitching" seems to be all the rage now in explaining a host of
brewing problems.... every one talks about it, and no one does anything
about it - it would really be some simple stuff to set up and test,
ferment at different pitching rates and then run it through a blind
tasting - but I read of nobody doing it, just talking about that "under
pitching" can be found at the source of all problems between a broken
buggy wheel, to deficits in the national budget)

Oh boy, I'm really foaming now, huh?

I would like to make a few comments on John's otherwise fine list.

I think the degree of oxegenation, and WHEN it is introduced is one key
factor.

I've personally never noted underoxygenation in itself as a contributing
factor, but that doesn't mean it isn't true of some yeasts. As to late
oxegenation, some people have attained diactyls by "dropping", that is,
when the krauzen reaches it's peak, you rack it over to another
container doing a lot of splashing.  This gives the yeast an oxygen
burst in the most productive part of their simple sugar metabolism and
seems to work with some yeasts.

not mine.

What has been most consistant for me is a bit similar in theory.  It is
long, slow, open primaries.  I keep them covered with a lid, that has a
hole in it with a filter stuck in the hole (well, OK, it's really a bit
of toilet paper, but when I first started doing this it really WAS a
sterilized filter, honest.) If you let the thing sit about two days
after the head is fallen, I don't think the "blanket of CO2" theory
holds (and in fact never "really" holds absolutely, making closed and
open ferments inherently different), and the yeast will be nibbling at
small bits of introduced O2 late in the primary.  If you find this works
with your yeast, I would then rack VERY carefully and anaerobically from
there (it's a hair line edge between making oxidative products you might
want - a diketone here, an ester there - and tipping over into things
you don't want - the dreaded Al D. Hyde - which once there, NEVER turns
into Dr. Jekyl again).

The chilling thing works for some people. Making the yeast drop like a
stone, I think preferably already at the end of primary. I haven't
played so much with that. In general, temperature will be very
important. I can tell you that Edme, for example used to throw them at
EXACTLY between 9-10.5C.  That is until August of '97, when the batch I
recieved suddenly doesn't. I've been playing with this "new" Edme, and
get a blush of it at a 7C primary and a 5C secondary, but nothing like
what I used to attain: "Fermenting an Ale yeast at a primary of 7C??!!
This guy must be nuts!!"

A last category, that is usually ignored here, is the metabolites the
yeast have access to other than oxygen.  This is steered most, I think, 
by trub composition  and exposure.

If you really want to bore yourself, punch
up....http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/columns/jirvine/trub.html 

I didn't bring up any taste descriptions there, 'cuz I thought it would
just cloud the issue, but here are some relevant ones...

In the second 'spurment there is "double trouble" and "no trub". These
were identically oxegenated, pitched, and fermented at the same
temperatures. One had a "double portion" of cold trub, and one had none.
The extra trub version had a lovely delicate diacetyl tone (which among
other extra complexities of flavour, is I'm sure why it was voted
best... all of my tasters have been to Czecho and love that stuff). The
trubless one, on the other hand, had some very light and complex estery
tones (which just to confuse things runs contrary to the theory of lipid
effects on ester formation... hey, what's a fellow to do?).

I guess my best advice on how to create diacetyls at a controlled level,
is just to always split your brew into separate ferments. If you stick
with the same yeast, and try and vary the things either John or I
suggested between the two (why not three?) batches, you should soon
figure out just what conditions your yeast likes to infuse a predictable
diacetyl tone.

If you are like me, and think that a diacetyl taste by itself is pretty
sickening, but also think that an overhopped beer, with nothing to
support it is uninteresting, you may well want to know during the boil
when you add your hops, just how much diactyl you're going to end up
with.... they are a brilliant marriage when in balance.

Addendum:  I know what your thinking. If you get a level of diacteyls
higher than your hopping rate, why not just dry hop up to match them? 
Been there, done that. I don't know why it doesn't work, but everytime
I've tried a late dry hopping it causes them to dissipate.... just one
more level of confusion (?)

Dr. Pivo
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to the present... since people like numbers, and I did give some
useful temps with Edme, I might mention with my lager yeast (Huerlimann,
Swiss production) the schedule that "works" is 8C primary (open; and
let the head drop) 4C secondary, and in the keg, two weeks at 6C, then
chill it down.

On a commercial level with Weinstephan 34, the temps are completely
different, but that's a "secret", and I'm not supposed to tell.

I know people like numbers and recipes, but I'm warning you, these temps
in all liklihood might NOT work for you, since we have different
compositions of our wort to start with... but if you're looking for a
predictable diacetyl level, this might give you an idea of some places
to start looking.

Dr. Pivo


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Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:50:10 -0800
From: Gail Elber <gail at brewtech.com>
Subject: Hop shoots

Rich Sieben fried his hop shoots. Puterbaugh Farms (Mabton, Washington;
http://www.hopsdirect.com; no connection) sells pickled hop shoots. I have
not tried them, but other members of my staff have and they said the shoots
were very good.

Gail Elber
Associate Editor
BrewingTechniques
P.O. Box 3222
Eugene, OR 97403
541/687-2993
fax 541/687-8534




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Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:03:50 -0600
From: "Eric McIndoo" <emcindoo at micron.net>
Subject: Re:  A Newbie Brewer Question/ and a question of my own 

Brett wrote:

Take a trip back in time . . .You have all the knowledge you have
aquired from homebrewing still intact, you have been brewing now long
enought to have made literally dozens of batches, but somehow you have
NO equipment!!!  ......


Brett,
    If I were you I would buy a starter kit (sold at every site on the net
and at every homebrew shop) that includes at least a plastic bucket, a glass
carboy (5gal) and a bottle capper.  However, you will be better off with two
glass carboys, one for the primary fermentation and one for the secondary.
This should cost you in the neighbor hood of 60 to 75 dollars, possible more
if you get two carboys.  This also includes the first batch, usually.
    Next, you will want to get a pot.  I used a 16 quart stainless steel job
that I still use for quick partial mashes.  They cost in the neighborhood of
20 to 25 bucks and will work just fine.  So, for a total of 100 bucks you
can get a functional set up going that will work great for extract batches.
After that, a simple investment of as little as 15 bucks you can do partial
mashes which will give you an immediate improvement in the beer you make
(IMHO).  Hope this helps.  If you have more questions just email me.

************************

And a few questions of my own.


1.  The homebrew shop owner I talked to suggested using a grain bag for
sparges.  Has anyone had success with this setup or is it inferior to other
setups?

2.  The owner (and many people on HBD) also suggested using an overnight
mash to shorten brewing sessions.  So, on my second batch (an IPA with 11.5#
grain in 5gal Gott) I mashed overnight (12hrs).  I started my sparge and the
sparge never cleared substantially.  After about 2-3 gallons it did clear
but not after the grain bed fell to 110 degrees.  So I removed the grain bag
and heated the sweet wort to 170 and placed it back into the grain bag
raising the grain bed to 150 or so.  To make a long story short, I had to
repeat this process 3 times because of either a stuck sparge if I ran the
runoff to fast or drastic drop in temp if run to slow.  I think the problem
may be soggy husks due to overnight sparge or possibly too much grain for
this system.  WHAT CAN I DO DIFFERENT?  I don't want to have to throw away
11.5# of grain again.  I hate crying . . . .

TIA to the collective.




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Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:13:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Diacetyl

In HBD #2997, AJ wrote:
>Amen to Dr. Pivo's comments on the suitability of diacetyl in some
>styles of beer.

   That rant was a good strawman, but please, let's recognize it
for what it was.
   I don't think you'll find many people issuing across the board
bans on diacetyl in every single beer produced.  I *do* think you'll
find people who don't like much (if any) diacetyl in many beer styles,
and I daresay you'll be able to find a few people who don't like
detectable diacetyl in any of the beer they drink.  But that's
merely personal preference.
   There's absolutely nothing wrong with somebody asking about how
to keep the diacetyl level down in the beer they brew, and for others
to give advice in helping them meet their personal brewing goals.
Let's not try to pressure people into brewing what they don't like
just because we might happen to like it.
- --
Joel

Brewing DMS-free (but sometimes diacetyl-laden) beers in corn country,
Illinois



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Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:20:58 -0600
From: "Brian Rezac" <brian at aob.org>
Subject: Promoting Homebrewing & Big Brew '99

In HBD #2997, John Adsit wrote:
>I am suggesting, then, that those who are pretty confident about
their
>wares and skills do some promoting outside the normal circles,
because
>the normal circles, as I said before, do not include these people.
This
>could include beginner courses in whatever local system you have for
>these sorts of things.  It could include having a party on big brew
day
>in May in which you invite people outside that normal brewing circle
to
>a beer making barbecue.

Bingo!  That is exactly what Big Brew is all about - Promoting
Homebrewing!

Let's face it, homebrewing is all about grassroots.  Most of us
learned to homebrew, or at least improved our homebrewing skills, by
someone else, a mentor, teaching and showing us how.  In return, many
of us have taught others.

So, if homebrewing is a grassroots-propagated-hobby, how does the AHA,
a national organization, fit in?  I believe the answer to this
question is that the AHA needs to support and facilitate the
grassroots efforts that homebrewers contribute in their local
communities.  Big Brew accomplishes this.

We have organized an international record-setting attempt that will
"push the buttons" of local media.  But in each participant's town,
they are Big Brew.  Each participant can design Big Brew to fit their
area.  That's the whole point.  We want you to take credit for the
record in your area.  We want to promote that you are the experts and
anyone interested locally in homebrewing should go to you.  This is
the best way to promote good, quality homebrewing.

Last year, we had one Big Brew site that had three television stations
covering their all day event that included brewing, raffles, a
children's coloring contest and more.  Many Big Brew sites got the
media to cover their story before the event and had potential new
brewers showing up to participate and learn.  There was one site that
brewed 415 gallons of homebrew in 24 hours, another that brewed 2.8
gallons.  Many sites had only one participating brewer, while one site
had 460.  People were brewing in their homes, at homebrew shops,
brew-on-premises, brewpubs and in other public areas and events.

This year, we already have many of those sites participating along
with some international sites.  The sky's the limit.  We're giving you
the ammunition to promote homebrewing in your area.  There's no fee.*
I encourage all of you to participate.  For more information, go to
the Big Brew '99 webpage at  http://www.beertown.org/bigbrew99   or
contact me directly.

PS - We are trying to have at least one Big Brew '99 site in each
state.  Please check the webpage to see if your state or area is
represented.

Thanks.

Brian Rezac
Administrator
American Homebrewers Association
736 Pearl Street, Boulder, CO  80302
303 447-0816, ext. 121
brian at aob.org        http://beertown.org

Brew With 1000 of Your Closest Friends -
Big Brew '99
E Pluribus (Br)Unum!  -   {From Many, One (Brew)!}
http://www.beertown.org/bigbrew99

*You do have to purchase your own ingredients, but then, you also get
to drink the beer.



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Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:43:36 -0400 
From: "Santerre, Peter (PRS) - CPC" <PRS at NA2.US.ML.COM>
Subject: RE: Beer Judging - Style Guidelines

Chuck Skypeck Wrote -

	"As Americans we have this need to label and categorize."

To Which I Say - 

	You are obviously correct.  (Go on about useful things now, I didn't
mean to waste the bandwidth, I just _HAD_ to pick this one out.)

Peter Santerre
24 Square Foot Brewery
San Francisco CA
 


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Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:57:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Lifer <jliferjr at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE:newbie

Well, If I were to start over, I would forget about smaller kettles,
going straight to 10 gal kettles or kegs
if available.  Add false bottom, make it or buy, or easymasher tm,
drill and forget welding, this may cause slight dripping, but a couple
of drops per min is a lot cheaper than welding fittings in.  And you
can change setup if desired.  If propane fired, get 3 new ring burners,
extra tank to prevent stoppages, connecting to a two tier system.  Add
Pump and use hose with quick disconnects if possible.  Use brass where
every possible, forget SS and save your money. Get a good CF chiller
(or make your own) 
 I still don't know about my B-in_law, even this might be pushing it. 
===
Used Ball-Lock Soda  Kegs for sale.
See my webpage for Details.
http://www2.misnet.com/~jliferjr/
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 16:30:08 -0500
From: "Bill Tobler" <WCTobler at brazoria.net>
Subject: On Aluminum Pots....

The Collective has come to the rescue as usuall...

All who use Aluminum Pots are happy....
All who use SS Pots are happy too......
Some don't like aluminum, but are also happy....
Someone thinks my name is Dave....but I think he is happy too...
The bottom line is, we all make beer,we use what we got, and do the best we
can....
And we are all as happy as a Lark...
(Why are Lark's always happy?  They don't make beer!!)

To Better Brewing,

Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson,Tx.


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Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:00:29 -0500
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: water softeners

     "George, Marshall E." <MGeorge at bridge.com> writes:
     >>>
     I have recently moved into a home that has a water softener in it.  It
     uses the pellets for the softening mechanism, and was wondering if
     this will have a detrimental effect on my beers (I brew allgrain).  If
     so, what could I do to help this out?
     <<<

     I have a water softener.  It has a bypass plumbed right above where it
     enters and exits the softening tank.  On the downstream side of the
     bypass is a valve and hose connection.  I connect a short length of
     tubing with a plastic hose fitting and switch to bypass to get my
     water.  Fortunately, my water is not too hard even without a softener.

     Cheers!

     Lou Heavner - Austin, TX


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