---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Hallertau Hops ("Jeffrey A. F. Hittinger")
  Hops/CT, Steam RIMS (Dave Burley)
  Mash/Lauter/Fermentor in one (randy.pressley)
  RE: sanitizers (Robert Arguello)
  RE: Maximum Rims Return Temperature Target? (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Re: Known Alcohol Levels ("Phil Uecker")
  Septic replies (Paul Haaf)
  primary fermenter, kegging (Bryan Gros)
  coriander/chill haze & protein rests/Wyeast #1214 & banana/thin mash (BrewInfo)
  Re: TSP ("Erik Moe")
  More TSP (pbabcock)
  co2 tank dilemma ("Rob")
  Running multiple kegs ("Anthony & Julie Brown")
  RE: Sweet! (Tim Holland)
  Fruit extracts ("Anthony & Julie Brown")
  O-rings and valves ("Anthony & Julie Brown")
  Isopropyl alcohol in airlocks (Paul Haaf)
  Dr pivo versus Dave Burley ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Wyeast 1214 and bubblegum ("David C. Harsh")
  split boil ("Spies, Jay")
  RE: CO2 tanks, kegs, & shelf life of kegged vs. bottled homebrew (LaBorde, Ronald)
  RE: RIMS heating control (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Brewsters, Open fermentations (Dave Burley)
  RE: RIMS heating control (Robert Arguello)
  Priming cider (Gail Elber)
  Tim Webb's Book (BrewInfo)
  pH (BrewInfo)
  Proctor's beer (BrewInfo)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:53:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Jeffrey A. F. Hittinger" <jhitt at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Hallertau Hops 

Can anyone enlighten me about the following?

The Hallertau region in Bavaria grows a variety of hop strains.
Specifically, I have read about (and/or used) Hallertau Hersbrucker,
Hallertau Mittelfrueh, Hallertau Tradition, and Hallertau Northern Brewer.
Now, often one sees references to just "Hallertau" hops, which I find very
misleading as each of the above varieties has quite distinct 
characteristics.  I have also seen some references to (and hops sold as)
"Hallertau Hallertau" hops, which is not a variety listed in any of the
references I own which identify Tradition, Mittelfrueh, and Hersbrucker.

Questions:  

1) Does Hallertau Hallertau actually exist, or is this just really sloppy
   nomenclature?  If the latter, when one refers to Hallertau or
   Hallertau Hallertau, which strain do they actually mean?  I would tend
   to think that it is the latter, and what is meant by the vague
   appelation is a nobel Hallertau hop like Mittelfrueh or it's closest
   descendent, since strains like Tradition are meant to provide 
   Mittelfrueh-like characteristics from a heartier plant. 

2) Is there a definitive book on hops out there which someone can
   recommend?  I find that most of the books on homebrewing overly
   simplify the discussion on hops.

Thanks for the info,

Jeff
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeffrey A. F. Hittinger              Office:  (734) 764-7573
W.M. Keck Foundation CFD Laboratory  CFD Lab: (734) 936-0107 
Department of Aerospace Engineering  Fax:     (734) 763-0578
The University of Michigan           Pager:   (734) 651-9586




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Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:04:42 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Hops/CT, Steam RIMS

Brewsters:

Jim Liddil asks for information on growing hops in CT.
Having grown hops in NJ, I can tell you about some
diseases, like verticillium & fusarium wilt and other moldy
things.  Make sure to plant your vines with plenty of air
flow and to not allow too many bines up the twine. Three
is a good number at first and then in June you can 

allow three more to increase your yield.  Pick periodically
rather than dropping the entire bine and you will increase
your yield and have all your hops at their peak.

Depending on where you live, magnesium content in
the soil may or may not be a problem, likewise boron.
Have your soil analysed and tell the lab what you want
to plant and they will advise the amendments needed.
Potassium and nitrogen are necessary, and to have
really great hops, fertilize them periodically throughout
the summer.  If you see leaves turning yellow around
the bottom it may be a wilt, but it could also be the
fact that the bine borrows nutrients from the lower
portion of the bine to promote the newer growth.  

Fertilizer and perhaps even a little chelated iron
and some magnesium may be in order.

I cannot put my finger on the reference, but I believe
a professor at Cornell(?) has done some work on
re-installing New York State as a grower of hops.
Check out the ag extension at Cornell. They will perhaps
have some advice.
- -------------------------------------------
Bill Macher and Steam RIMS. Bill says he can get the 

temperature of the returned wort to up to 190F and
probably get it to 175F without any trouble. The
reason for  doing this is to get a rapid
temperature jump, I suppose.

Well, if you were making a big delT,  I would expect
you would have trouble since you would heat a lot of
your wort at this high of a temperature.  I would
expect that you will find the beta amylase
component reduced and your beers may become
high FG, dextrinous and low in alcohol.

OTOH, Decoctions, of course, boil a portion of the mash
and there are still enough enzymes in the remaining
mash to convert the starch and dextrins, so
theoretically you might be able to go this high if only
a portion of the wort saw this temperature.  That
is not exactly the same situation as what you have.
But, I guess an estimate of the fraction of the wort you
would need to heat could be made using the 

fact that the grist has a heat capacity of around 0.4
if I recall.  


I guess I really don't understand how you are heating
your wort. Are you passing steam into a vessel 

containing a vessel of recirculating wort?  I thought
the point of using steam was reduce the chance for
enzyme denaturization and to pass it directly into the
mash. RIMS could still be used to even out the
temperature hot spots. 

- ---------------------------------------
Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley

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Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:24:21 -0500
From: randy.pressley at SLKP.COM
Subject: Mash/Lauter/Fermentor in one

I've changed my procedure over the last couple of
all grain batches which has made making good brew
even easier.  I have two converted kegs.  Both have
false bottoms.  One is used as the Mash/Lauter tun
while the other is used as the Boiler.  After the Boil
I transfer into the just cleaned Mash/Lauter tun keg
which is now a fermentor.  The false bottom has been
removed at this point.  I pitch the yeast and cover the
keg with a loosely fitted lid.  When fermentation slows
I tie a garbage bag on top of the keg.  I test specific
gravity by simply opening the valve located near the 
bottom of the unit.  Once I hit the target gravity I begin to
bottle straight from the keg fermentor.  I add corn sugar
tables to each bottle so I eliminate the bottling bucket.
Since the valve is a few inches above the bottom of the 
keg it allows me to remove the beer from the keg without
getting the yeast which has fallen to the bottom of the keg
below the valve.  By tilting the keg while filling the last few
bottles I get no significant beer waste.  No bottle shaking
is needed when using the tablets.


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Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:35:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Subject: RE: sanitizers

>Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:48:19 EDT
>From: JPullum127 at aol.com

>how long will iodophor diluted to 12.5ppm and stored in an airtight bucket 
>stay potent?

Assuming your water contains even trace amounts of chlorine....probably not
much more than a day or two.

According to the manufacturers of BTF Iodophor,  light and chlorine will
degrade the sanitizer quickly. I have stored a 12.5 ppm solution of iodophor
and city water in a sealed corny keg and found that the amber color, (which
according to the manufacturer, indicates viability), will fade within 48
hours. It would probably last longer if using distilled or chorine-free water.



********************************************************************     	
Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Corny kegs - ProMash Brewing Software
http://www.calweb.com/~robertac
********************************************************************



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Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:26:53 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Maximum Rims Return Temperature Target?

>>>>
From: "William W. Macher" <macher at telerama.lm.com>

What is the desirable maximum temperature of the wort 
being returned to the mash tun?....

 ....Limiting temperature in this way limits how quickly I can
make transitions from one point to another.....

 ....Limiting the return temperature also increases the time to 
get to mashout temperature of 168, because the delta T 
drops as I approach 168, and I must cut back on steam 
input to avoid overshooting my self-imposed target.....

 ....I am not sure what the maximum temperature attainable on 
my system is,  other than steam is self-limiting at about 212 
degrees F.  My goal is not maximum temperature anyway, 
but rather maximum heat transfer from my steam source to 
the mash tun.....

 ....What I try to do is to get maximum 
recirculation rate while limiting the temperature of the 
return to a safe value.  I just do not have any idea what the 
maximum safe value is, and have probably set a limit that is 
too conservative at 170 F.
<<<<<

In an earlier post I asked you:
===
I wonder if you would consider injecting the steam directly into the mash
and totally eliminate the need for a chamber.  With the chamber, the steam
could overheat the enzymes because of hot spots.  With the steam injected
into the mash, only the very small area near the 'feathers' would possibly
get overheated to destroy the enzymes.  You are really trying to heat the
mash, so why not do it more directly?  I have had some problems using a coil
chamber RIMS where the heated liquid would take some time to raise the
temperature from the top to the bottom of the mash.  By heating in the
center, this would greatly aid even heating and you would not need as rapid
flow through the RIMS.
===

And now I am asking again, why not just inject directly into the mash?

I have been using 175F in the HLT and circulating through the 5/8 OD copper
coil in the HLT with no problems, the wort clears up nicely in about 20-30
minutes and looks as clear as tea.  That's when I know that conversion is
complete (sugar is transparent, starch is translucent in water).  It is just
a guess, but I would guess that the electric element in a chamber type of
heating has some hot spots possibly even greater than the 175F.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:13:24 -0500
From: "Phil Uecker" <uecker at hpnc.com>
Subject: Re: Known Alcohol Levels

These pages give the percent alcohol, number of calories, specific gravity
before (OG) and after (FG) fermentation, and apparent attenuation for many
commercial beers.
http://www.npac.syr.edu/users/ensmingr/beer/beerdata.html



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Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:18:11 -0400
From: Paul Haaf <haafbrau1 at juno.com>
Subject: Septic replies

Most people that responded to my post think that the diluted and
relatively small amounts of sanitizers wouldn't affect a septic tank. 
However, more than half dump on their driveways anyway, just to be safe.
Thanks to all for their replies.
Paul Haaf

___________________________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:36:36 -0700
From: Bryan Gros <bryang at xeaglex.com>
Subject: primary fermenter, kegging

Dave Burley writes:
>>I haven't read any of Charlie P.'s books for years so
don't remember much of 
>>his advice.
>
>Most of it wasn't very good, like pouring hot wort through
>the air ( see picture), using a carboy for a primary,
>short mashes, bad iodine test method ( first ed) and
>the like.

What's wrong with using a carboy for a primary?


>When I
>changed over to double milling ( as I have described
>in the HBD) my points went to low-mid nineties.

Wow!!!
I thought Dave Miller was cool for getting 32 pts/lb/gal,
but 90! That is amazing!

Just kidding.

*******
"Anthony & Julie Brown" <brown32 at web1.ecol.net> writes:
>
>I am going to start kegging my beer soon and can't
>decide what size co2 canister to purchase.  I can
>get a 5# for $35 or a 15# for $50.  The 5# would fit
>in the frige better but the 15# is more economical.
>Any suggestions as to which one would serve me better.
>Plan to have 2 kegs tapped at a time.  HELP!!

Depends on whether you think you'll ever take your
kegs on the road, to a party or picnic or whatever.

I originally bought a 15# to "permanently" attach it to
my fridge (on the outside). Fine for a while, but a bitch
to lug around to club meetings, friends houses etc.

I finally found a used 2.5 # CO2 tank for about $50. Now
I can use it to bring on the road (It is so light!).

My 15# CO2 tank lasted about 2 years before a
refill, for what it is worth.

*******
I believe that diacetyl should only be considered a fault
in your beer if you do not like diacetyl. If you like it, fine.

Remember, wine is the only food that you need 
someone to tell you if you like it or not.
:-)
  - Bryan

Oakland CA
gros at bigfoot.com



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Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:46:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com>
Subject: coriander/chill haze & protein rests/Wyeast #1214 & banana/thin mash

Nathan writes:
>Couldn't get any whole coriander at the brewshop or "natural" foods store.
>Found some ground coriander.  Very aromatic.  Not quite as fresh as
>crushing my own.  Has anyone used commercially ground coriander in a wit
>beer?  How much should I use?  I think I would actually use a little less
>than when I used whole...fresh crushed...because of the greater surface
>area and such.  Comments?  Suggestions?

I don't know how fresh the ground coriander was, but I've found that old
ground coriander smells "meaty" where as freshly-ground smells citrusy.
BIG difference!  I've had two kinds of Witbiers: ones that taste "right"
and ones that taste "meaty."  I have reason to believe that either the
ones that taste "meaty" are using pre-ground coriander or the beer is
old and oxidation causes the coriander to turn "meaty" whether it's
in the beer or in a bin at the "natural" foods store.  I've been able
to find whole coriander at the grocery store (Jewel, Dominicks, Eagle...).
McCormick has it, right next to the ground coriander.

Oh, and if you want to grow it yourself, don't buy seeds... just buy some
whole coriander at the store and plant that.  It's the same stuff and a
fraction of the price.  Furthermore, the whole seeds need to dry thoroughly
before you use them (what you buy will certainly be very dry).  If you
try to use whole coriander that is too "fresh," you will find that it
smells rubbery upon crushing.

***
Glyn writes:
>While enjoying my latest CAP I was thinking, (always a mistake), "If I could
>get rid of the chill haze this would be perfect."  This one was corn meal,
>cereal mash, single infusion.  Great Head, last for quite a while.
> 
>So do I need a SHORT protein rest. At 130? 135?  10 minutes?

As noted in earlier posts, you might try to reduce polyphenol (tannin)
extraction as chill haze is a reaction between proteins and polyphenols.
If that doesn't work, yes, you might try 15 minutes at 135F-ish.  That's
exactly what I do when I find I have too much break or cannot eliminate
chill haze from a recipe by being *more* careful with polyphenol extraction.
Check and monitor your pH... it's very easy for it to be too high in a
cereal mash because you have very pale grains (that therefore have low
acidity).

***
Matt writes:
>Aroma/Flavor: My version was much more bananay than the Chimay. I used Wyeast
>1214 which reportedly is the Chimay strain. I fermented it at 58F (a BJCP judge
>from my homebrew club guessed that I used the Weihenstephan Wheat yeast
>fermented at about 70F). I know Chimay is fermented at a much higher
>temperature. I may try fermenting warmer next time. The banana ester
>overwhelmed the aroma and flavor of my beer. The Chimay had a much nicer melody
>of various fruits in both flavor and aroma.

I have reason to believe that Wyeast #1214 needs to have an ENORMOUS starter
to reduce the banana (and pour off the spent starter wort at least once).
I made a Dubbel with #1214 about a year ago and it had only a faint banana
aroma for the first month and then none.  I fermented at about 63F, used
oxygen to oxygenate and made the equivalent of a 4-liter starter (2 liters
decanted and fed 2 liters more).  Very Chimay-like.

***
Matt writes:
>Steve Alexander commented about George Fix's 104F (40C) rest in the last HBD. I
>myself decided to test it with a recent batch I made. I mashed in with at 1
>qt/lb, rested for 30 minutes, then added enough boiling water to get up to my
>saccrification temperature at 158F (70C). Everything went well enough, but I
>only noticed a nominal increase in efficiency, well within the noise. I think
>the problem was that I had to add so much boiling water to get the mash up to
>158F that my mash ended up well over 2 qt/lb. My guess is that any efficiency
>increase was counteracted by the fact that the enzymes were so diluted. Does
>that sound like a decent assumption? Steve? George? George? Al?

2 quarts per pound is not that thin a mash.  I know of many good homebrewers
that go up to 2.5 quarts per pound and their beer comes out fine.  It's
not only the dilution of enzymes but also the dilution of their products
(e.g. maltose).  The products of conversion impede the work of the enzymes,
so a dilute mash is not as terrible as you might think because while you
lose some on one side of the process, you gain some on the other.

One factor that *is* somewhat important is that the thickness of the mash
affects the various enzymes differently.  A thin mash will cause beta-
amylase to denature faster whereas alpha-amylase is not affected as much.
Therefore a thin mash will favour alpha-amylase.  In other words, a thin
mash at 152F will be more dextrinous than a thick one at 152F.

There are slighly different yields also, but I don't recall the exact
numbers.  There's a table in Malting and Brewing Science.  If I recall
correctly [QDA] it was only a few percent difference [/QDA].

Al.

Al Korzonas, Lockport, IL
korz at brewinfo.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:28:21 -0500
From: "Erik Moe" <ehm at concentric.net>
Subject: Re: TSP

John Palmer writes:

> There is a common product (here in California) called TSP in big letters
in
> a cardboard box. It is sold at Home Depot and Von's grocery store AND it
is
> NOT Tri-Sodium Phosphate.  In fact it even says Contains no phospates. The
> TSP stands for Totally Superior Product, and it is your average sodium
> carbonate cleaner, just like Arm and Hammer Super Washing Soda.  I really
> don't know if true Na3PO4 is still available.

I live in Oklahoma and buy my TSP from Home Depot.  It is the real thing, it
even says so right on the box:

CAUTION: Contains Trisodium Phosphate.

It is produced/packaged by Custom Building Products, Seal Beach CA.

Erik Moe
Norman, OK
ehm at concentric.net



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Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:25:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: More TSP

Greetings, Beerings! Take me to your lager...

Eric Moe sez:

> I live in Oklahoma and buy my TSP from Home Depot.

Here, too. Saw it today while buying parts to rebuild my 20 yr old
compressor.  It was right next to the TSP substitutes. 2.96 a box, same
maker - about a pound, from the looks of the package. Meijer has Recochem
brand trisodium phosphate in a really big box (4 lbs).  Didn't catch the
price, but my six-month-old box is marked 6.49. 

No, folks. Some state governments didn't allow the environmental activists
to stir them into throwing the baby out with the bath water - no pun
intended. Again, it was phosphates in laundry detergent - which, I
believe, all but really smelly people used. How many people really use
products like TSP? Oops! My mistake! It's inappropriate to confuse them
with the facts.

Oh, well. I think I'll go clear an acre or two of rainforest now and maybe
poke some holes in my airconditioning lines... 

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."




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Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:28:22 -0500
From: "Rob" <brewmasters at texasbrew.com>
Subject: co2 tank dilemma

HELP!! where can I get co2 tanks for that price?      :)




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Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:50:24 CSTCDT
From: "Anthony & Julie Brown" <brown32 at web1.ecol.net>
Subject: Running multiple kegs

First, thanks for all the replies on the last post..
Some great information there and will really help my
decision.

Next, I know you can run multiple kegs off one CO2 tank 
but am wondering about the easiest and most efficient
way to do this.  I have also heard that the way to go
is to buy quick disconnects with threads rather than
barbed hose connectors due to better compatablity between
kegs.  You must need disconnects for each keg you plan on 
running simultaneously I imagine but is there another way?
Wouldn't swapping the entire disconnect be just as easy as 
unscrewing and switching the beer/gas line from the 
disconnect itself to dispense single kegs?  I guess I am
just a little confused here.  Maybe it will help to see it
in front of me this week when my disconnects arrive in the
mail and I can get everything toether....

Tony B.
and switching


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Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:16:27 -0700
From: Tim Holland <tholland at alaskalife.net>
Subject: RE: Sweet!

> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:36:54 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Tim Anderson
> Subject: Sweet!
>
> Is it just me, or do a lot of recipes these days call for huge amounts
> of crystal?  Perhaps the collaborator milk stout is supposed to be
> sweet, but 1.5 pounds seems like Kool Aid makings to me.  And in a
> recipe book my wife gave me for Christmas, recipe after recipe has a
> pound or more.  Heavens!  I seldom use more than 4 oz, unless I'm
> hopping the crap out of it.  I don't care for beer on my pancakes,
> thank you.
>
>
I know what you mean.  Lately, I've become very sensative to crystal
flavors in many beers I've tried. Personaly, I never use more than about
4oz or so in any beer I make, except strong scotch ales. I am going to
no crystal in the next several batchs to see what happens. (btw I've
been brewing all grain for the last 4 or 5 years.)  It amazes me that
friends rave about comercial brews that are very sweet and "under
finished".  Maybe I'm getting old (turned 40 last summer), but the
longer I brew, the pickier I get. :-)  Can anybody else answer the
question about so many published recipies using a LOT of crystal?

Another Tim




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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 02:50:27 CSTCDT
From: "Anthony & Julie Brown" <brown32 at web1.ecol.net>
Subject: Fruit extracts

Anyone had any luck brewing with fruit extracts added
just before bottling/kegging?  I have tried a few fruit
batches, a raspberry (5lbs berrys) 
and an apricot wheat(4 extra large cans 'cots), with real 
fruit but both seemed to have a mild fruit aroma and an almost
non-existant fruit flavor.  Do I dare try an extract or
will persistance with the real thing pay off??  Note that I
am looking for a pretty stron fruit flavor result here.  Would
not adding finishing hops help here??


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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 04:01:57 CSTCDT
From: "Anthony & Julie Brown" <brown32 at web1.ecol.net>
Subject: O-rings and valves

Hopefully this may be the last of my kegging questions, 
but I sure appreciate the answers.  

First, is it really nescessary to replace all the o-rings
on a used keg that just had soda in it.  I have heard I
definately need to replace them so my beer doesn't have soda
taste to it, and I have heard that a good long soak in
dish detergent seems to be all the old ones need to get
rid of the pop residue and flavor.  Any experience with this?

Second, I need to clean out the kegs I just got from the Pepsi
plant and when going to remove the in and out valves, my sockets
in my socket kit weren't long enough to reach the nuts.  Anyone 
know the size socket I need.  Seems one (I think the in) is 
metric and the other standard.  Would like to know what size
of each so I can buy them in a spark plug version or something.
Anyone know offhand the sizes they have on their ball lock kegs?


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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:54:39 -0400
From: Paul Haaf <haafbrau1 at juno.com>
Subject: Isopropyl alcohol in airlocks

Thanks again for all the replies on septic systems.   Now I have another
question.  Since isopropyl alcohol is so much cheaper than vodka, any
reason why you shouldn't use it in an airlock?  TIA.
Cheers,
Paul Haaf

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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:06:47 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Dr pivo versus Dave Burley

         I am new to all of this but have read with interest the HBD over
the last few weeks. The technical and scientific knowledge of Dr Pivo and
Dave Burley would seem beyond the scope of a lot of home brewers (myself
included) but I wonder if the beer they make tastes any better than that
made by us ordinary guys. For that matter I wonder who they make their beer
for other than themselves! In fact I wonder if they actually make beer at
all or just pontificate on the subject. Now I am probably being as nasty as
the two of them have been towards each other but the point I wish to make is
this : Home Brewing is supposed to be fun. Sure there is a lot to be learned
and none of us will ever know it all but lets not lose sight of why we enjoy
it. I am assuming of course that we are all enjoying it. My friends,
neighbours, relatives and even my wife and associated girlfriends think my
beer is more special than any commercial versions available. Well I am
flattered to hear this but I am well aware that it is not too difficult to
produce a beer that leaves the average commercial version for dead.
         This result has been achieved without the intense scientific input
that Dr Pivo and Dave Burley seem to think is necessary. To this end I would
like to say that Charlie Papazian provides an attitude to beer making which
is quite refreshing! Enjoy it and enjoy the fact that those around you enjoy
what you make. Getting very scientific about it all is fine but lets not
take it all too seriously.

              Cheers, Phil Yates.
             yates at infoflex.com.au



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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:41:59 -0400
From: "David C. Harsh" <David.Harsh at uc.edu>
Subject: Wyeast 1214 and bubblegum

>Al said:
>> ...Orval has Brettanomyces among the bottling strain mixture.  Brett
>> is what gives Orval that "bubblegum" aroma.
and the Pat said:
>Really? I got the bubble-gum aroma from fermenting an Orval clone with
>WYEAST 1214 Belgian Ale yeast. ....The aroma was so intense....

I can't speak for Brett, but I've noticed that 1214 produces the bubblegum
flavor at elevated temperatures (i.e. > 70 F) and the intensity increases
with fermentation temperature.  Its easily controllable if you don't let
the fermentation temp get too high; I've found that in the 65-68 F range
the levels are much more subdued although still clearly detectable.

Look inside the smack pack and you'll even see that they include the
miniature comic strip...

Dave
                      Dave Harsh
       Bloatarian Brewing League, Cincinnati, OH


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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:01:52 -0400
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: split boil

All -

Patrick Flahie asks in #3005 how to handle a split boil . . .

As a user of (2) 5-gallon pots for full stove top boils of all grain batches
for several years now, I can offer a simple solution.

Instead of running off your first 3 gallons of high gravity runings into one
pot, and the remaining 3 into a second pot, why not use a third, smaller
container to run off into (I use a 2 quart pyrex measuring cup) and then
just add the first bowl to the first pot, the second bowl to the second pot,
the third bowl to the first pot, and so on...

It may sound a bit tedious, but I enjoy the process, so for me, it's not
really work.  Then, just split your hop additions evenly, and don't fret
about adjusting for gravity...

Also, you can start the heat (if you're on a stove like me) after you run
off a few quarts, thus making the boil start faster on those notoriously
slow 12K btu gas stoves like mine.

Hope this helps -

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:41:30 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: CO2 tanks, kegs, & shelf life of kegged vs. bottled homebrew

>>>>
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>  
 .....It is sometimes nice to have a small 
     bottle for lugging to parties, but otherwise the bigger the 
     better....
<<<<

Yes, but if you go the bigger route, aluminum is MUCH lighter and easier to
carry.  I have a 25# alum, and also have a 25# steel, and the difference is
amazing.

>>>>
     In fact, it is easier to keep oxygen out of your beer at 
     packaging if you keg rather than bottle.  My procedure is to 
     clean the keg (take it apart every time and use a .22 caliber 
     rifle barrel cleaner to get the gunk out of the dip tube) and 
     then sanitize it by filling it with nearly boiling water (be 
     careful!).  I then reassemble it and let it stand 15 minutes with 
     a small amount of CO2 pressure (so that the cooling and 
     contracting liquid doesn't create a vacuum that could potentially 
     destroy the keg).
<<<<

I thought a vacuum would cause the poppets to depress and let air in.  Also,
the lid would be pushed down by outside air pressure, and this too would
allow air inside.  We are talking about Corny kegs, are we?  This destroyed
keg by vacuum would be a good candidate for "Believe it or not" in St.
Augustine Florida. :>))

>>>> 
     I then push the hot water out of the keg with CO2 (you can 
     collect this water and bring it back to a boil and use it to 
     sanitize another keg or two).  This leaves me with a clean keg 
     that is completely free of oxygen.  I then transfer the finished 
     beer directly into the keg through the "liquid out" fitting 
     (using the "gas in" fitting as a vent) and voila!  Kegged 
     homebrew with very little oxygen pickup!
<<<<

Finally I get to ask someone who knows.  George, does water evaporate into
hydrogen and oxygen?  If so, than I have often wondered how can one push the
water out with CO2 and have no oxygen?  Would the water film left on all the
insides evaporate into the keg inner space?  In fact, beer is mostly water,
now I am really confused.  Why would the water not evaporate out of the beer
and emate hydrogen and oxygen?

>>>>    
     Beer packaged in such a way should be more stable than your 
     average homebrew-bottling procedure could achieve.  You'll learn 
     exactly how long your beers can keep by drinking them and taking 
     tasting notes.  I have found some big beers (like a 1.062 
     Oktoberfest or a 1.066 IPA) can stay palatable for several 
     months.
<<<<

This sort of testing is called destructive testing, you can get your answer,
but your original object is gone. :>))

>>>>  
     As for the question about the beer retaining its carbonation with 
     the CO2 tank disconnected:  it will maintain carbonation a *very* 
     long time as long as the keg has no leaks.  Simply store the keg 
     with the amount of CO2 pressure that was required to carbonate 
     the beer.  There is no reason to store it with the gas tank 
     attached.
<<<<

Yes, and if there is the slightest leak anywhere in your system, you will
loose all your CO2 if you leave it attached.  By the way, I can't remember
where I heard this but:

	It appears that the valve on CO2 cylinders is a two direction valve,
that is - it seals when fully closed, and it seals the stem when
fully open, so never use it for long periods in the middle position, as
leakage may occur and good bye CO2.

 Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:49:05 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: RIMS heating control

>>>
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at geocities.com>

 ....Do any of you control your element manually? How? A dimmer switch?
On/off switch? Any advice would be appreciated....
<<<<

I use a solid state 240V 25 amp relay, controlled with a 555 timer circuit,
it is simple on/off with a rate of about 1/2 second.  I use a circuit that
allows a potentiometer adjustment of the on/off ratio from 0 to 100%.  It
works very well for me, and if I ever need automatic control, it can be
gated with a simple logic level or dry contact switch.

Previously, I used a cheap lamp dimmer feeding the solid state relay, and
this also worked, but the realy got much hotter, and I needed a special
relay with random firing instead of the more common zero crossing relays.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:06:47 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Brewsters, Open fermentations

Brewsters:

Jim rehashes a recurring observation of my greeting.
that "brew-ster" refers historically to a female role in
a productive activity, like Baxter for baker or one 

which it is still true to historical gender usage even if
it no longer has the same meaning - Spinster.

I submit that I use "Brewsters" with the same intention
that a fellow football player uses the term "OK, 'girls'
 let's go get them." It is a measure of respect for the
beaten and bruised, but triumphant homebrewer.

I could also argue that the "-ster" ending no longer
has the historical meaning, since we often call a
male a 'jokester' ( meaning a rogueish, but
likeable person) rather than a 'joker' ( which has
a different and more negative meaning).

In any event, you should take it as a friendly greeting
with no disrespect ( quite the opposite) intended. 

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
On my comments about why I disagree with CPapazian
As to what is "wrong" with a carboy for the primary
fermenter, it is a matter of style. I find the difficulty
with cleaning the carboy and overflow tube and the
possible overflow of the carboy to be too messy
and theoretically more prone to contamination
with repeated fermentations with the same
carboy/hose than an "open" fermenter into which you
can place a non-abrasive scrubber easily and get it
clean. No overflow tube assembly needed. Cover it with
a plastic sheet held down with rubber bands and
you are in business.

Lifting and toting a glass bottle filled with fifty plus
pounds of liquid in it is not my idea of an ideal
procedure. If you drop a plastic container
( less likely, perhaps, since it probably has
handles or at least a place to grip it) you may
have a mess, but no injuries are likely. I do
use a carboy into which I rack the fermenting
liquid in 3 to 5 days to minimize the potential
for contamination as the outgassing of CO2
declines. In the secondary, the bathtub ring
of hops and protein is minimal and cleaning is
easier. Safety is a problem, but reduced by half
from a two carboy brewing system.

Just my preference and decades of
experience of brewing without an infection,
others have different opinions as the HBD
archives will show.


Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley

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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:21:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Subject: RE: RIMS heating control

Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:17:50 -0400
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at geocities.com>
Subject: RIMS heating control

Doug Moyer asked:
Do any of you control your element manually? How? A dimmer switch?
On/off switch? Any advice would be appreciated.


I do.  I paid about $80 for a 2000 watt industrial dimmer control. Don't try
using a typical household dimmer switch, they can't handle the power demands
and will overheat, possibly causing a fire.

 
********************************************************************     	
Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Corny kegs - ProMash Brewing Software
http://www.calweb.com/~robertac
********************************************************************



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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:11:46 -0800
From: Gail Elber <gail at brewtech.com>
Subject: Priming cider

Marc suggests:
>>>>>
You may want to try and prime with fresh, home-pasteurized
apple juice (hold at 180F for 30 minutes) but I can't provide an
estimated amount.  The new Brewing Techniques has an article on the
sugar content of certain fruits, but I don't recall if apples are on
there.
<<<<<

According to that article, apples themselves are (by weight) 3.8% sucrose,
6.0% fructose, and 1.2% glucose, for a total of 11% fermentable sugar. I
guess the percentages would be different for juice, though, so that's not
much help. Those figures came from the Foods and Nutrition Encyclopedia
(CRC Press), which might have the figure for apple juice. And then there's
the question of sweet vs. tart apples, juicy vs. mealy, etc.

BTW, that article (Gary Spedding, "Determining the Sugar Contribution of
Fruit in Beer," BrewingTechniques March/April 1999, pp. 36-37) is just
crying out for a "Reader's Technical Note" pinning down how much of a
fruit's fermentable sugar is actually extracted when fruit is steeped in
hot wort or thrown into the fermentor. The author assumed 75% for steeping,
but I don't know if anyone has ever determined the real figure
experimentally.

Gail Elber
Associate Editor
BrewingTechniques
P.O. Box 3222
Eugene, OR 97403
541/687-2993
fax 541/687-8534




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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:13:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com>
Subject: Tim Webb's Book

Bill writes:
>To read more about these styles, check out Tim Webb's excellent book
>about the Beers of Belgium, Holland and Luxembourg, put out by CAMRA,
>which is now available in the US.

I have to disagree with your assessment of this book.  I had it in hand
during my last trip to Belgium.  There are several editions, but the
one I had at the time was only several months old.  MANY of the cafes
listed were closed or had changed ownership (and now only sold Jupiler!)
or housed Middleeastern restaurants.  Hours or operation were often
wrong and things like "tours first saturday of every month" were also
incorrect and outdated!  If you do get the book, CALL AHEAD and get the
correct information.

Personally, I would rather trust Peter Crombecq's website:

   http://www.dma.be/p/bier/beer.htm

Al.

Al Korzonas, Lockport, IL
korz at brewinfo.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:16:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com>
Subject: pH

I knew my bass-ackwards explanation was going to get me in trouble.
Please read what I said again more carefully... it is rather
convoluded.

Arnold writes:
>> It's not surprising that you didn't get hot break (and probably got
>> pretty poor cold break too)... too low a pH will decrease break
>> formation.  It becomes a big problem below 4.8 (according to the books)
>> but nothing is a step function in nature (well, maybe the impact of
>> your head on the exhaust hood) so you will begin to get less break
>> well above that 4.8... I would guess 5.2 or so.
><SNIP>
> 
>I guess I am confused?  You say "too low a pH will decrease break" then
>say "you will begin to get less break well above that 4.8... I would 
>guess 5.2 or so"?????

What I meant was that break *BEGINS* to decrease at around 5.2 and then
you get *less* break at 5.1, and even *less* at 5.0 and even *less* at
4.9...  The book (I think it was Malting and Brewing Science, but it
might have been DeClerck) said 4.8, but we know this is not a magical number.
I would say that you can have *problems* with not enough break at 4.8
and below, but that *start* to get less break at around 5.2.

>I brewed a wheat beer this past weekend without doing any addition of
>brewing salts to the mash or checking the PH.  When I started the boil, my
>curiosity got the better of me and I checked the PH in the boiler, it was
>~6.0.

That's quite high... you'll get great break, but you will also extract
quite a bit of polyphenols (tannins) from the hops during the boil.  Also,
your hop utilisation will be *slightly* higher than if the pH was lower.
I've also read where some authors have said that you get a "rough"
bitterness from a high-pH boil, but that could simply be that they
are extracting more polyphenols and calling that astringency "roughness"
or maybe oxidising the finished beer (either directly or via HSA) and
then getting bitterness from oxidised polyphenols.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Lockport, IL
korz at brewinfo.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:26:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com>
Subject: Proctor's beer

Sorry that this is so late...

Bob writes:
>Several years ago when taking the exam to move up to National, I evaluated
>a beer brewed by the proctor, a bitter. Fortunateley, or unfortunately, I
>had just returned form London 3 weeks prior (had a few bitters). I had
>found many problems with the exam beer. 
> 
>After the exam we talked with the proctor and several other local judges
>about the bitter. The other judges had also evaluated the exam beers with
>the proctor. There was agreement between the proctor and these judges on
>all but the proctor's bitter. All the local judges, and most exam takers
>agreed with my evaluation. The proctor thought it was a perfect bitter and
>because of his "National" status said the lower ranked judges didn't know a
>good bitter.

Several years ago, I too got bitten by this "proctor brewed the beer"
problem.  It was a fruit beer (open to wide interpretation to begin with)
and the proctor scored it very high.  I thought it had problems and scored
it relatively low.  In the end, I got the 90 I needed to get to Master,
but I've since been a very strong advocate against the proctor brewing
any of the beers judged.  When I administered the exam (three times since
then) I always tried to get beers from other people to use for the
tasting portion.  One time I did have to use my own beer for one of the
four beers, but what I did was blend a few bottles of my beer with a bottle
of another brewer's beer in a pitcher.  The resulting beer was different
enough to where I felt I was not biased.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Lockport, IL
korz at brewinfo.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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---