---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  RIMS heating control. ("Dana H. Edgell")
  phosphates, iodophor, septic, oxygen caps, etc. ("Eric R. Theiner")
  secondary/kegs and bleach/AHA now member-driven (BrewInfo)
  Re Maximum Rims Return Temperature Target? (RobertJ)
  Malt extract kits for Whisky ? (CALNZAS)" <Tony.Ackland at comalco.riotinto.com.au>
  RE: corny kegs, water, valve stems. ("Gregg Soh")
  water --> H2 + O2 (David Whitman)
  Cleaning beer lines ("Doug Moyer")
  isopropyl alcohol (Marc Sedam)
  re: Dr Pivo vs Dave Burley ("Alan McKay")
  kegging / mash tun as fermentor / stability of water ("George De Piro")
  Sammy Burzonas (Eric.Fouch)
  why Steam RIMS (KMDruey)
  Polenta Cap/Growing herb/Vacuum on corny/Too much crystal (John Varady)
  re:Dr pivo versus Dave Burley (Michael A. Owings)
  Water does not evaporate into H2 and O2 (Matthew Comstock)
  Re: Wyeast #1214 & banana (Matthew Arnold)
  High efficiency, (Dave Burley)
  Water Evaporation (LaBorde, Ronald)
  re: Sanitation and septic systems ("Swintosky, Michael D.")
  Glass Primaries (Robert Uhl)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:35:29 -0700
From: "Dana H. Edgell" <edgell at cari.net>
Subject: RIMS heating control.

Doug Moyer asks about manual RIMS control...

An on/off switch would be fine for manual control for occasional boosts but
could be subject to disaster if you get distracted (as I commonly do while
brewing). Most inexpensive dimmers have a fairly low wattage rating (600W?)
and wouldn't be good for controlling a decent size heater.

However, a simple thermostat could "automate" your temp control without all
of the complex electronics in most RIMS controls. American science and
surplus http://www.sciplus.com (No affiliation yadda yadda) has some cheap
thermostats with a decent watt rating (see info below). I have a few of
them and plan on using them to control my Hot Liquor Tank (Disclaimer: I
haven't finished doing this yet). They can be inserted into the RIMS tubing
with a 5/16" compression fitting (drilled out to 5/16 full bore). These
thermostats are identicle to one I found while taking apart the power
plug/insert for my wife's electric grill.

The main drawbacks I can see are

1) I doubt they will enable any fine control but certainly no worse than
Manual control.

2) You are probably limited to a single temperature for a single
thermostat. Setting the temp requires manual calibration and would be
difficult to change correctly for step mashing (not to mention the
electrical hazard of reaching in and turning the knob if you forget to cut
all power. see 4 below).

3) Thermal insulation is probably required to accurately determine the mash
temp as the probe end won't be inserted very far (after the compression
fitting).

4) Electrical insulation /box is a must if you plan to run 120VAC through
it as the thermostats were originally for the inside of a plastic component
and the leads are bare. I am using a relay to control my heaters so I can
run a low DC relay control voltage through the thermostats for safety (or
at least its illusion).

Info about thermostat:
Probe Thermostat (from electric grill plug etc)
70-250F
stainless steel, 5/16" diameter, 2-3/8" long
rated: 1200W at 120VAC
American science and Surplus#20340, $2.00

Good Luck,
Dana

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Dana Edgell                         edgell at cari.net
2939 Cowley Way #G         http://www.quantum-net.com/edge_ale
San Diego, CA 92117         (619) 276-7644




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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:02:48 -0700
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: phosphates, iodophor, septic, oxygen caps, etc.

Just some points to make, and so many that I don't remember who
said/asked what.

Phosphates are not a pollutant; they are a nutrient.  Although
phosphates have been shown to cause algea blooms in waterways, the
primary source is not laundry detergents.  At the time of the ban,
agricultural chemicals were mostly to blame (and in most cases, still
are).  Laundry detergents were the strawman for the legislators seeking
to get environmentalists off their back.  The Great Lakes Study showed
that the ban had no significant impact on phosphate levels withing the
Great Lakes region.  (Nitpicking, but it's very important to me.)

Iodophor lasting in an air-tight pail:
I wouldn't count on 12.5 being 12.5 for much more than 3-4 hours.  You
still do not need to rinse at 25 ppm, so use that and it can drop to
half its titrateable level and still be effective.  It will probably
last 1-7 days that way, depending upon ambient temperature.

Sanitizers in septic tanks:
Don't worry about it for active oxygen and iodophors (the tremendous
amount of crap will destroy those before they do any harm).  For
chlorine bleach and acid, don't put them down the drain if you're using
lots-- a little is negligable.

Sanitizers for oxygen absorbing caps:
If the engineer who designed them claims that oxygen sanitizers will
deactivate them, don't use chlorine bleach either.  Without getting into
the chemistry behind it, chlorine bleach releases a significant amount
of O2 as well.

Sanitizing orange blossoms?
Forget about chemical sanitation-- there are too many nooks and crannys
for microbes to hide.  Heat is really your only option.

I think that's all that triggered my antenna.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.



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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:51:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com>
Subject: secondary/kegs and bleach/AHA now member-driven

Rob writes:
>1)  Is it possible to rack to the secondary too soon.  I had an Alt in
>primary for 6 days  at  65-70 F and racked before the yeast had all settled
>out.  Was this a mistake? if so can I fix it now? or should I just try
>to enjoy the possible high gravity finish and possible diacetyl (sp?)
>flavors that may result from my fermentus interruptus? (too many road
>runner cartoons as a child).
 
Not really.  Personally, I don't use a secondary except for lagers and
fruit beers (usually just to make room for the fruit).  The advantages
of secondary fermenters are debatable (I personally have not found any
difference in the finished beer) and the disadvantages are headed by
potential oxidation and potential infection (every transfer increases
the odds that some nasty will get in there, although this is a very
minor point because there will be very little for any nasties to eat
if they got into the beer at this point in the process).  Some yeast
will always settle in the secondary... the difference in your case is
that you'll have 1/4" in stead of 1/16"... that's all.

>2)  What is the general consensus on sanitizing corny kegs?  I am new to
>kegging (1st batch).  I had four corny's donated to my cause by my local
>Coke guy and did the following prep steps.  Rinsed with cold water followed
>by a hot water rinse followed by a strong bleach solution which was allowed
>to remain in the keg for 30-45 mins (pressed poppets after the keg was full to
>make sure sanitizer was in contact with all surfaces) .  I then drained the
>bleach solution and did not rinse yet.  The kegs are waiting patiently for the
>batch mentioned in item #1 at which time I will re-sanitize and rinse one out.
>I read on an earlier post that bleach solution can harm metal if left to sit
>too long, should this rule apply to ss kegs also? There's a little pool of
>the bleach solution at the bottom of the kegs, should I get that out ASAP?
 
Personally, I use iodophor for sanitising my kegs.  There have been chemists
who have warned about catastrophic faults being possible with stainless steel
from bleach, although the worst first-hand account I've ever heard was that
pinhole leaks had formed in the keg.  There is general consensus, I believe,
that short soaks in bleach will not be a problem, but that longer soaks
(certainly overnight) should probably be avoided.

***
Paul writes:
>Brian and I will continue to do what
>we can to promote homebrewing and transform the AHA into a member-driven
>association, so that the AHA can still promote homebrewing by being
>connected through our members in communities throughout the U.S. We
>appreciate all of the members  and non-members who are participating in
>promoting our hobby in their towns.
> 
>Jim's message reminds us that we constantly need to look internally as
>we promote homebrewing externally. We are doing that as best we can.
>Thanks for the input.

I do really appreciate everything Paul and Brian have been doing to
improve the AHA and to make it more member-focused.  However, Paul's
post reminds me that it wasn't until membership started to plummet
that the AHA finally decided it's time to be more member-driven.  I
just wish that Paul and Brian would have been hired five years ago and
started this change earlier.  I had predicted that it would occur.

If you look in Zymurgy around 1996 or so, there was an issue in which
(ironically) AHA Pres. Karen Barela was boasting in the front of the
issue how the AHA gained something like 6,000 new members.  Then,
somewhere in the back, there was a chart that showed membership growth
for the last five years.  In the same time that the AHA gained 6,000
new members, membership only grew by 2 or 3 thousand.  That means that
3 or 4 thousand members didn't renew.  I knew that the growth couldn't
last and that something needed to be done to slow the loss of existing
members.  Well, the AHA finally got around to realising this... alas
it wasn't until membership had dropped to half of its peak.

Again... I do really think that Brian and Paul are running the AHA the
way it should be run.  I've said before that Brian should swap salaries
with Charlie.  I guess Paul should get some too ;^).  Unless my wife,
Karen, is about to deliver, I'll most likely be participating in Big
Brew `99.

Say... while I'm at it, can someone volunteer to set up a way for us
in the field to upload .gif's to the AHA website during the Big Brew?
Last year we had some interesting conversations while we all brewed
together.  It would be even better if the sites could send in photos.
It would be more convenient than if we put them on our websites and
posted links to them, right?

Cheers!

Al.

Al Korzonas, Lockport, IL
korz at brewinfo.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:16:20 -0400
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Re Maximum Rims Return Temperature Target?

William W. Macher <macher at telerama.lm.com> wrote:

"As I mentioned in a couple previous posts, I have a newly 
built steam-injected rims that has two batches under its belt.  
After some modifications it appears I am able to get 
satisfactory recirculation rates. ...

What is the desirable maximum temperature of the wort 
being returned to the mash tun?

For my second batch on this rims I limited the return 
temperature to 168-170 F. range.  I could get more, but was 
concerned about tannin extraction and possibly denaturing 
enzymes.  

Limiting temperature in this way limits how quickly I can
make transitions from one point to another. For a given 
flow rate I certainly could jump from one temperature to
another more quickly if my return wort was at 190, rather
than 170."

I share your concerns about maximum wort return temperature and enzyme
deactiviation. It seems to me that it is a time and temperature
relationship to kill the enzymes.

To my thinking 170F is too high a recirculation temperature but, if you are
only there for a few seconds before returning to a well mixed mash bed it
may not be a problem. To be on the safe side we limit recirculation
temperature to 158 max with our HERMS(tm) system.

You say you'd like faster boost times, but don't say how long you now take.
We raise a 17 lb mash (13 gal batch) from 120F to 150F in about 8 mins (4
deg/min.) Most RIMS do about 1 - 2 deg/min If you're within that range I'd
think you're doing fine. If you want go faster than that I think you may
need constant mash stirring.

Hope these thought help

Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://www.pbsbeer.com


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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 04:03:06 -0000
From: "Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)" <Tony.Ackland at comalco.riotinto.com.au>
Subject: Malt extract kits for Whisky ?

I know that the collective purpose of this forum is to try and guide all
homebrewers away from using extract, towards full grain mashes, but I'm
still after any advice ..

My distillation experience (yes, it is legal here in New Zealand) to date is
based on preparing simple sugar-only wort.  From these, and run through a
reflux condenser, I collect a very clean & tasteless vodka, which is ideal
for creating liqueurs with, and adding to commercially available flavors.

My homebrew experience is 1/3 kit only, and 2/3 modifying kits, e.g. adding
say up to 400g of crystal & other grains, various malt powders, hops.
licorice, etc.  I'm quite pleased with the product, even though it isn't
quite the complexity some of you guru's get into.

What I plan to do is try and make a wort suitable for fermenting &
distilling into a whisky.  However, all the grain recipes I have are 100%
grains.  I don't want to go (at this stage) to this much bother.

Have any of you had experience, or could make an educated guess at:
* what malt-kits I would most likely mimic a traditional whisky with, or
* how to simply modify a malt-kit to get the same result.

Either reply here, or email me direct.
Thanks in advance,

Tony Ackland.

Tony.Ackland at comalco.riotinto.com.au


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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:14:05 PDT
From: "Gregg Soh" <greggos at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: corny kegs, water, valve stems.

>I thought a vacuum would cause the poppets to depress and let air in. 
>Also,the lid would be pushed down by outside air pressure, and this 
>too would allow air inside.  We are talking about Corny kegs, are we? 
>This destroyed keg by vacuum would be a good candidate for "Believe 
>it or not" in St. Augustine Florida. :>))

Well, actually, the keg lid still has the latch attached to it that 
keeps it in position, and on some kegs it is deceptively tight. If the 
seal is good, a partial vacuum can be created. It's happened to me 
before, after letting hot water cool in the keg. (more like the hot 
air contracting really). Surprisingly, the poppets didn't let in any 
air. It made a loud suction sound when I released the latch on the keg 
lid. Luckily, my keg didn't collapse, probably since I'd put in at 
least 15 lbs. of pressure to seal the lid in the first place!

>does water evaporate into hydrogen and oxygen?

No. Water evaporates into water, and stays water. That's why we have 
humidity.

>It appears that the valve on CO2 cylinders is a two direction valve,
>that is - it seals when fully closed, and it seals the stem when
>fully open, so never use it for long periods in the middle position, 
>as leakage may occur and good bye CO2.

The reason one needs to tighten the valve stem to either extremes, 
opened or closed, is that you want to backseat the valve in either 
positions, to prevent gas leaking. (Probably through the threads of 
the stem). So, yes, leakage might occur and goodbye CO2.

Gregg.

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:55:37 -0500
From: David Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com>
Subject: water --> H2 + O2

Ron Labor asks:

>Finally I get to ask someone who knows.  George, does water evaporate into
>hydrogen and oxygen?  If so, than I have often wondered how can one push the
>water out with CO2 and have no oxygen?  Would the water film left on all the
>insides evaporate into the keg inner space?  In fact, beer is mostly water,
>now I am really confused.  Why would the water not evaporate out of the beer
>and emate hydrogen and oxygen?

While water will evaporate into the gas phase, at any temperature humans
could survive it remains as water vapor, not gases of its component
elements.  In fact, if you mix hydrogen and oxygen gases at room
temperature and provide a spark, they will spontaneously convert to water
vapor.  Don't try this at home. (ref: Hindenberg disaster)


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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:30:59 -0400
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at geocities.com>
Subject: Cleaning beer lines

Brewers,
    I would like to have a keg of cleaning/sanitizing solution that I can
keep for a long period of time. I would like to be able to hook up my beer
lines to it and clean them out once a month or so. Is there a product out
there that will both last and not destroy a keg?
    How do those of you with complex multi-tap systems keep everything
clean? I currently have three or four cobra taps, but when I am done
building my dispense system, I will have two three-tap towers.

Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity



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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:36:33 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: isopropyl alcohol

You don't want to use isopropyl (or even ethyl) alcohol from the
pharmacy because it contains small impurities making it slightly toxic. 
It wouldn't kill you, but there's no reason to risk having toxins leak
into your beer.  Try going to the local liquor store and pick the
absolute cheapest, strongest liquor available.  In some states grain
alcohol is ridiculously cheap--here in North Carolina corn alcohol can
be bought for a song.  Both work as well and are cheaper than vodka.  If
you get distilled liquors that are >70% alcohol (v/v), dilute them to
this percentage to get the maximum disinfectant qualities.

 -Marc


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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:59:10 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: re: Dr Pivo vs Dave Burley

Phil Yates claims :

"Home Brewing is supposed to be fun."

I think that in general, Phil, you are in the wrong place if you
want to have fun with homebrewing.  I've said it before and I'll
say it again, but I think some of the folks in here take things
just a little (actually a lot) too seriously.

Phil then goes on to say :

"My friends, neighbours, relatives and even my wife and 
 associated girlfriends think my beer is more special than 
 any commercial versions available."

Then I think you are already far, far ahead of anyone who can
go on for hours about chemical compositions and reactions.

Sure, I use an amount of science in my beer.  But when the
science begins to become more important than the beer - well -
that's when I'll turn in my brewspoon and move on.  Unfortunately
I think there are a number of folks I've seen in here who
are already well beyond that point IMO.  

No offence intended or anything.  If that's what you're into 
then great for you. But it sure isn't my idea of "fun".

cheers,
 -Alan

p.s. To his credit, I don't think Dr Pivo has passed that point.
In fact, far from it.  My take is that he "hauls out the science"
only when forced to by someone else who resorts to the "big guns".

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
http://zftzb00d/alanmckay/


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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999  9:00 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: kegging / mash tun as fermentor / stability of water

     Hi all,
     
     Tony Brown (who states in his sig line that he is soon switching; 
     will he become Julie?) has more kegging questions:
     
     1.  Do you need to replace all of the o-rings to eliminate the 
     possibility of contaminating your beer with soda flavor?
     
     I have never changed anything other than the big o-ring that 
     seals the lid unless the ring was physically damaged.  My beers 
     have not picked up soda flavors.  Perhaps it helps that I don't 
     usually store the kegs upside down.
     
     2.  What is the best way to arrange gas fittings to run multiple 
     kegs?
     
     If you want to run multiple kegs simultaneously, you need as many 
     gas fittings as you have kegs.  It does not matter (to me) if 
     they are the barbed type or the screw-on barb type.  Using the 
     appropriate number of brass or plastic "T" fittings allows you to 
     split the gas line to feed as many kegs as you want.  There is a 
     limitation on that, of course:  if you have 4 kegs running at 10 
     psi and you open all 4 taps at the same time, there may not be 
     enough gas flowing to keep the beer pouring at the desired rate.  
      Unless you are planning some really big parties this shouldn't 
     be a problem.
     
     Also of note:  unless you have a separate regulator for each keg, 
     they all have to be carbonated to the same level.
     -------------------------------------
     Randy (I assume it is Randy; he did not sign his post) talks 
     about using his mash tun as a fermentor.
     
     I would be cautious about one major thing:
     
     The mash tun is chock full of wort and beer spoiling bacteria.  
     Make sure your cleaning and sanitation are superb.  Especially 
     troublesome could be the valve on the vessel:  is it a ball 
     valve?  They are very difficult to sanitize because they have 
     gaps that can hold liquid around the ball, and they hold liquid 
     within the ball when they are opened and then closed (so if you 
     open the valve to collect a sample, liquid will remain in the 
     ball after the valve is closed).  You could minimize this risk in 
     the following ways:
     
     1.  Modify the ball valve by drilling a hole through the side of 
     the valve so that the ball drains when closed and can be washed 
     out with sanitizer.
     
     2.  Use a more sanitary valve, like a butterfly valve, or perhaps 
     even a gate valve (both can be sprayed with sanitizer, and 
     neither will hold liquid in tough to sanitize places).
     -------------------------------------
     Ron asks if water evaporates into its constituent elements 
     (hydrogen and oxygen).  "Evaporation" is only a change of state 
     (from liquid to gas).  The gas is still the same compound as the 
     liquid.
     
     The world would be quite a different place if water readily 
     decomposed into hydrogen and oxygen!  Each lightening strike 
     would ignite a massive atmospheric fire storm that would produce 
     rain (as the hydrogen and oxygen recombined).  The process would 
     then start over again.
     
     That's a bit more exciting than the "water cycle" we learn as 
     youngsters, but I guess none of us would be around to learn it if 
     it was how the world worked...
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)
     
     Malted Barley Appreciation Society
     http://hbd.org/mbas


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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:44:00 -0400
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Sammy Burzonas

HBD-
While Fred is busy applying Chinese Tiger Bag Balm to his chafed areas, I'll
sneak into some Q-n-A's!

Ron La Borde asks of O2 generation:
Finally I get to ask someone who knows.  George, does water evaporate into
hydrogen and oxygen?

Well, I'm no George, but the answer is no.  You are thinking of electrolysis.
Not the kind Fred has done to his sensitive bikini areas, but the application
of an electric current to an electrolyte (water) to produce a chemical change.
 And if you try this at home, make sure you have the proper collection
vessels, and use DC current, since oxygen and hydrogen will spontaneously (and
explosively) combine to form....water.
Water evaporates into water vapor.


Phil Yates on the Dr. Pivo v. Dave Burley cage match:
Now I am probably being as nasty as the two of them have been towards each
other but the point I wish to make is this : Home Brewing is supposed to be fun

Yes it is.  And I don't know about YOU, but I have derived much enjoyment
(fun) from this highbrow slamfest.  And nobody has mentioned penis size or
sexual inadequacy yet!


Anthony & Julie Brown" <brown32 at web1.ecol.net>
Subject: Fruit extracts

In my experience, you do want to eliminate flavor and aroma hops to enhance
fruit flavors.  Also, residual sweetness in the beer helps the fruit flavor.
Darker heavier styles lend themselves nicely to fruit beers.


Nathan writes:
>Couldn't get any whole coriander at the brewshop or "natural" foods store.
>Found some ground coriander.

Whole is better.  Try looking in bulk food stores and ethnic food stores.  A
local Italian deli/food store carries quite a few neat spices- coriander,
cardamom, lemon peel, lemon grass, etc.

Whoops!  Fred's finished with the bag balm, and now he's looking for the
drawing salve.
Gotta Go!

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood, MI


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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:55:33 EDT
From: KMDruey at aol.com
Subject: why Steam RIMS

A few have asked about steam RIMS and why would one not just inject steam 
into the mash bed.

Injecting steam directly in to the mash will extract harsh husky phenolics.  
On my first two steam RIMS trials is did just this.  On the third trial I 
injected steam into the RIMS heating chamber, delta T's were on the order of 
15 degrees F, with the 1000W heating element on high along with the steam 
injection.  Denaturing of beta amylase is not a problem.  The mash is doughed 
in at 150'ish to start the 140F rest, then after this rest the mash is 
boosted with steam and the heating element to 158 F. 

As Bill and others have stated, the primary advantage with steam is the much 
higher delivery of heat to the mash in a much shorter time than the heating 
element can provide.  The heating element is excellent for temp. maintenance 
during a mash step rest, and the steam is much better for temp. boosts.

I will post a url to a picture of the steam RIMS setup after my next brew 
session in a few weeks.

Kyle


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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:16:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Polenta Cap/Growing herb/Vacuum on corny/Too much crystal

I got my scoresheets backs from the recent HOPS-BOPS contest in Philly and
was happy to see the rave reviews my CAP made with polenta received. It took
second place with an average score of 39.5 (40 & 39). I really like this
beer as does every one else that tries it. The first CAP I made with
Bavarian lager yeast was a bit too malty, but this one has a nice crisp
character. I look forward to making it again (but probably not till the next
cool spell...in about 6-7 months)...

HBRCP 2.2 Recipe
Name:   Flapper's Delight            O.G.: 1.052
Style:  CAP                        I.B.U.:  34.0
Volume: 15.0 Gallons               A.B.V.:  5.1%

Grains/Fermentables       Lbs  Hops       AAU  Grams  Min
Pale, American 2 Row    17.50  Saaz       4.2  45.00  100
Bellino Instant Polenta  5.50  Chinook   11.8  32.00   90
Vienna, German           2.00  Saaz       4.2  60.00   15
                               Saaz       4.2  60.00    0

Miscellaneous Ingredients    Amt
Breakbrite                  1.00 Tsp         

Yeast: Bavarian Lager (fresh from Red Bell)
Prime: Cane- 71 Grams in 4.0 Gallons for 2.54 vols  at  50.0F
 
Mash 5.5 plbs polenta and 5 lbs malt in 2.5 gallons water. Heat from 100F to
154F over 20 mins and rest for 20 mins. Boil for 1 hour. Mash in remaining
grains at 148F in mash tun. Slowly add the boiled corn mush to main mash
stirring well to boost it to 152F. Recirc and try to keep in the low 150's.
Mash did not want to recirc and I had to keep stirring. This made keeping
temps tough but I was able to keep it about 151F. After 60 mins begin to
drain tun to kettle over 30 mins (very slow sparge). Add batch sparge water
and stir. Recirc for a couple of minutes to clear and then let sit for 15
mins. Drain. Added saaz to kettle before first runnings and then added
chinook when full boil started. During boil add extra sparged wort to keep
volume near top of kettle. While chilling, add water to keep volume at top
of kettle. Add yeast while in 70's and transfer to carboys at 66F. Left on
porch overnight and was at 38F in the morning. Move inside and then to cold
box when at 50F.
2/1 -  at  50F.
2/4 -  at  54F.
2/8 -  at  52F
2/10-  at  52F & 1013
2/23- Cane- 70 Grams in 4.0 Gallons for 2.54 vols  at  50.0F
3/27- 2nd in HOPS-BOPS. Avg score 39.5

- --

Any one have any luck growing "Paradise seeds"? I put a couple in some soil
and am hoping to see something sprout. Even if they do, I haven't been able
to find any information about the growing preferences of the plants.

- --

George talks about adding near boiling water to a corny keg to sanitize it
and expresses a concern about imploding the keg as the liquid cools. As
Ronand LaBorde points out and as I have directly experienced, the vacuum
created causes the seal around the lid of the keg to fail and allow air in.
I usually boil 2 1/2 gallons of water and transfer to a corny. I shake the
heck out of and a drain some from the out line to fill the dip tube (a lot
of pressure builds up from the air in the corny becoming super heated and
expanding). I then set it upside down and let sit for 20-30 mins before
draining. The whole time the keg is sitting upside down I can hear air being
slowly sucked in around the lid.

- --

I think that the reason many homebrewed recipes call for large percentages
of specialty grains is simply explained by the use of english units. Most
grains are sold by the pound and therefore are added to recipes by the pound
(or an increment of). I have been shying away from using crystal malts and
even specialty malts of late. I've done a few 100% 2-row pilsners and a 100%
2-row barley wine and a strong ale that was 97% 2-row, 1.5% wheat malt and
1.5% roasted barley.

Later,

John
- -- 
John Varady                     http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady
Glenside, PA                    rust1d at usa.net



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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:17:47 GMT
From: mikey at swampgas.com (Michael A. Owings)
Subject: re:Dr pivo versus Dave Burley

Wow -- I wonder how many "gee, you guys are too technical, I make
really good beer without all this stuff" posts like
this the HBD gets a year. 10? 50? 100? So here goes the standard
response (maybe I can figure out a way to automate this):

This digest accomodates a wide variety of brewers, some casual, some
serious, and -- in spite of its title -- even professional or semi
professional brewers. Many participants here approach brewing as both
art AND science, and the posts reflect this sometimes passionate
attitude. If you find a particular post to be too nitpicky, simply
ignore it and page down. Or better yet, read it -- you might learn
something (I certainly have).

Having said that, I don't think Dr. Pivo's severely beating Dave
Burley about the head and neck for his comment in diacetyl was really
called for. Best save the beatings for the clinit*st posts (kidding,
kidding...)




***********************
Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
The courage to change the things I can. *** And the wisdom to 
hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they pissed 
me off ***


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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:51:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: Water does not evaporate into H2 and O2

Howdy
<Chemgeek alert>

Ronald LaBorde wonders if water evaporates into H2 and
O2.

Thought I'd jump in....  When water evaporates, it's
just a change of phase, like ice->water.  When water
is electrolytically decomposed to H2 and O2 this is a
chemical change.  An electrochemical change.  I'm by
no means an electrochemist - maybe AJ can help out.  I
assume he'll comment, but....

Well I was going to spout a bunch of electrochemical
half reactions, but I'll leave that to someone who
remembers that stuff better.  The bottom line is:

2H2 + O2 -> 2H2O is a thermodynamically favored
reaction - this is why hydrogen explodes, the
Hindenburg, etc (but needs something to set it off
like a spark or a catalyst).  The reverse reaction is,
therefore not thermodynamically favored and requires
energy to force the reaction to go in the 'opposite'
direction; uphill not downhill, thermodynamically
speaking.  This can be done electrochemically.  I
remember experiments as a kid where we inserted the +
and - leads from a battery in a (salt?) water solution
and H2 would bubble out one side (+, anode?) and O2
would bubble out the other side (-, cathode?).  Ouch
its been awhile.  A heck of a lot of academic and
industrial research labs are studying photochemical
routes to 2H2O -> 2H2 + O2.  That is, using sunlight
to split water.

Answer:  water does not evaporate into H2 and O2.

Matt In Cincinnati 

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:10:21 GMT
From: marnold at ez-net.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Re: Wyeast #1214 & banana

On Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:16:33 -0400, you wrote:

>>Aroma/Flavor: My version was much more bananay than the Chimay. I used Wyeast
>>1214 which reportedly is the Chimay strain. I fermented it at 58F (a BJCP
>>judge from my homebrew club guessed that I used the Weihenstephan Wheat yeast
>>fermented at about 70F). I know Chimay is fermented at a much higher
>>temperature. I may try fermenting warmer next time. The banana ester
>>overwhelmed the aroma and flavor of my beer. The Chimay had a much nicer
>>melody of various fruits in both flavor and aroma.
>
>I have reason to believe that Wyeast #1214 needs to have an ENORMOUS starter
>to reduce the banana (and pour off the spent starter wort at least once).
>I made a Dubbel with #1214 about a year ago and it had only a faint banana
>aroma for the first month and then none.  I fermented at about 63F, used
>oxygen to oxygenate and made the equivalent of a 4-liter starter (2 liters
>decanted and fed 2 liters more).  Very Chimay-like.

A word of thanks goes out to Al for these comments and similar ones made when I
first brewed this in December. Initially, I made a one-gallon starter (by
stepping up four times) for this batch. Now, some four months later, the banana
ester has subsided and the resulting product tastes very much like Chimay White
/ Cinq Cents. It was a good beer a couple months ago, now IMO it's an excellent
one. Ahh, homebrewing . . .

Matt
- -----
Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club
http://www.rackers.org        info at rackers.org


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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:10:05 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: High efficiency,

Brewsters:

I said :  when I went to double milling, my pts/gal
 went to the low to mid-nineties.

Bryan Gros said he thought Dave Miller was doing great
when he got pts/gal of 32, but this was amazing!!

and then said "Just kidding!"

Well, when I said I was good, I meant it!!  {8^)

Obviously it should read low to mid 30s. Or a
 % efficiency in the 90s.Actually, I am at a bit of a
loss to supply real numbers as I have shipped the
majority of my brewing books to my new home,
but that is what I recall.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
Anthony and Julie Brown ask about replacing 'O' rings 

when setting up an old keg which has seen a life as a 

soda keg.  


Without a doubt you need to replace all of the 'O' rings.
In the good old days before such things were readily 

available ( I had to beg a soda supplier and supply him
home brew to get the right to buy the kegs and CO2
supply!) , I tried to make do with lager in the keg and
an old set of 'O' rings which I had boiled in soapy water,
soaked in soapy water, soaked in bleach and I cannot
remember what else.  The rings always had a faint
aroma of root beer or whatever and so did the beer.
I finally had to go back and buy the rings and that was
not an easy proposition, until I pointed out the beer 

would be better.

Always use new rings.  Not expensive and well worth it.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron LaBorde asks about water decomposition into
hydrogen and oxygen. It does happen, but only with 

the input of energy. Electrolysis of water is an example.
Evaporation of water produces only water vapor, since
water is a molecule which results from the reaction of
hydrogen and oxygen with the release of energy.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley

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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:57:00 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: Water Evaporation

Many thanks to the responders to my question:  "Does water evaporate into
its two gasses, hydrogen and oxygen."

To everyone's great fortune - NO it does not!  

Everyone answered correctly in that it is a change of state and not a
separation of the molecules, so they remain bonded together.  To separate
them, it would take energy of some kind (electricity), and to combine them
back together, energy is given off (explosion).

I was reminded of the school experiments where electricity was run into salt
water, and hydrogen and oxygen were collected at the electrodes.   This
could be the beginning of some experimentation.  I wonder if one could
oxygenate the wort by using electric current instead of our injection and
shaking methods.  The pesky hydrogen could be problematic.  And of course
there's always that word EXPLOSION.	 Hmm, I guess I will keep the fish
pump!  :>)

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:40:26 -0400
From: "Swintosky, Michael D." <Swintosk at timken.com>
Subject: re: Sanitation and septic systems

I have "heard" that soft water in general can, in the long run, negatively
impact the soil structure in a way that reduces the percolation rate.  Do we
have any experts out there that can lend credence to or negate this?

Mike Swintosky


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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:52:20 -0500
From: Robert Uhl <ruhl at austinc.edu>
Subject: Glass Primaries

I feel that a glass carboy is better suited to cleaning than a 
plastic bucket.  I had trouble at first, but then I discovered the 
following procedure:

Fill the carboy with water, add a good dash of bleach, stop it up and 
let it stand on its neck for about half an hour.  Give it a good 
chake from time to time and spray it out with a bottle cleaner. 
Takes every last bit of kraeusen residue off.  Just make sure that 
every last bit of bleach is gone before using the carboy again...

The bigger issue is blow-off; I tend to use a 6 1/2-7 gal. primary 
and 5 gal. secondaries.  I tend these days to get a _very_ strong, 
thick kraeusen, and hence lost a good pint of beer to the tube when 
using a 5 gal. primary.  Cannot see how an open fermenter would fix 
this.  In fact, if it were truly open, it'd just foam over and make a 
mess everywhere, instead of going through the tube and into the 
waiting bucket.

On another subject, anyone have ideas on how to imitate a 
London-style bitter/sb/esb?  I was there this January and fell in 
love with the beer.  Through the judicious use of Fuggles I feel that 
I have come very close to the proper flavour, but the body is just 
disappointing (the carbonation is as well--far too fizzy--but I can 
fix that the obvious way).  The beer is nearly as thin as a regular 
beer.  I have been using 1 lb. 2 oz. of crystal and a >90-minute 
boil, in order to increase body, but so far to no avail.  One issue 
is that I am not running a full-wort boil, but rather approx. 2 1/2 
gal. (wh. boil down quite a bit, as one can imagine).  My recipe is 
this:

1 lb. 2 oz. crystal (about 40L)
dash of dark LME
superlight to make 4 lbs. with the above
4 lb. amber
11-13 HBUs Fuggles (boiling)
Fuggles for flavour & dry hopping (about 1/2 oz. ea.)

This yields 3-5 gal., depending on various blow-off, racking and 
misc. lossages.

Is my only option to go all-grain, or is there a simpler solution?  I 
don't quite feel ready for that step yet.  Maybe in a few years. 
TIA.  I am

&c. &c.,
Bob Uhl


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---