---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  belgian beers (UKNALIS)
  Grain vs extract amounts (Pete Soper)
  Fleishmann's (Pete Soper)
  Brewing Water (Wayne Allen)
  Missing Digests (Mike Fertsch)
  Kegging (Doug Roberts  at  Los Alamos National Laboratory)
  Is homebrew a bargain? (Doug Roberts  at  Los Alamos National Laboratory)
  How to enjoy Toronto. (Ken Darcovich)
  Re: Kegging (Glenn Colon-Bonet)
  Green Acres address (BROWN)
  Clubs/Clans/Gangs.... (jamesb)
  Re:  sterilizing & kegging (Chuck Cox)
  Re: The great label controversy (garth!apd!phipps)
  Re: Re: a question of infections [and boiled caps] (Dr. T. Andrews)
  Re: Re: Is Homebrew a Bargain? (Dr. T. Andrews)
  Miller Reserve (doug)
  Yeast vs. Wort Temperature (Mark.Leone)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:         Fri, 10 Nov 89 08:12:29 EST
From: UKNALIS at VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      belgian beers

I tried a few Belgian beers recently (orval & bios) The taste is quite
different from most other beer.  Looking through CJOH I gathered that there is
a special type of fermentation process... though could not quite determine
exactly (effects of the beer). Does malo-lactic ring a bell?  Is a special
yeast used (of course) and can it be cultured from the bottle?  They used
wheat in one (bios) but it was different from other 'weiss' beer I've had. 
The beers are tart and effervescent and would love to know if anyone has
successfully brewed such a beer.  Please send hints and recipies!!! 

Thanks,

Joe

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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 89 09:39:51 EST
From: Pete Soper <soper at maxzilla.encore.com>
Subject: Grain vs extract amounts

>From: microsoft!jamesb at uunet.uu.net
>Subject: How much is enough??
>
>On the subject of all grain brewing.
>How much is enough?
>If a recipe calls for 6# of extract and I don't want
>to use extract, how many # of grain do I start with?
>
>Tonight is the night !!
>We are going to start our very first batch. Wish us luck!

 Since this is Friday, "last night was the night", so I assume you just picked
a quantity of grain and used it :-) 

  Anyway, here is one way to work this out. Figure you will get 22-34 "points"
per pound of grain, depending upon the extract efficiency of your mashing and
sparging process. I'd suggest using 25 as a first approximation since it is
less pain to end up with too much extract than with too little. Figure that
regular malt extract syrup runs around 36 points per pound. So, for a 5 gallon
batch, 6# extract = 6*36/5gal = original gravity of 1.043, so to duplicate
this you would need X lb grain * 25 = 216 and so X=8.6 pounds.  Now lets say
you make the beer and you end up with 5 gallons at 1.048. So you really got
5*48 = 240 points / 8.6 pounds = 28 points per pound. You can then feed this
into the design of your next batch and so zero in on your extract efficiency.
Under the right circumstances, one pound of malt can come close to equaling
one pound of malt extract syrup but I'm still looking for those circumstances
:-) 

  Also, in the above example, dilution can get you back to 1.043 with a volume
of 5.6 gallons, I'm assuming we all know that the volumes mentioned are "after
the boil", that having established the actual extract and other mash
parameters hop rates might need tweaking, etc. 
Return to table of contents

Pete Soper                                             +1 919 481 3730
internet: soper at encore.com     uucp: {bu-cs,decvax,gould}!encore!soper 
Encore Computer Corp, 901 Kildaire Farm Rd, bldg D, Cary, NC 27511 USA

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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 89 09:47:38 EST
From: Pete Soper <soper at maxzilla.encore.com>
Subject: Fleishmann's

From: <BROWN%MSUKBS.BITNET at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>

>yeasts and descriptions of various liquid strains' characters was great.  Also
>interesting was the article by the guy who uses blocks of Fleischmann's for
>lagering.  Has anyone tried this yet (seems hard to believe)?

  For the benefit of those who can't read the "Zymurgy" article, keep in mind 
that its author is discussing a different yeast from the regular Fleischmann's
baking yeast we are all familiar with at the grocery store.

--Pete Soper

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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 89 11:37:15 CST
From: wa%cadillac.cad.mcc.com at mcc.com (Wayne Allen)
Subject: Brewing Water

I have seen a number of questions regarding water sources. I live in an area
with yucky water, and so have experimented with various bottled waters. I once
used spring water in a pale ale. This worked fine, but I don't know what its
mineral content was. I have used distilled water in extract brews almost
exclusively for several years, with great success. I assume the mineral
content of the extract provides enough of the elements for good yeast
metabolism, since these brews enjoyed enthusiastic fermentations. Too, you can
add minerals to suit your target style (I believe CJHB has equivalence tables
in the back). 

	| I really really really really really really really like girls!!!!
 Wayne	| Oh yeah I really really really really really really really
 Allen	| like girls!!!  I like'm tall!! I like'm small!! I like'm
	| AAAAAAALLLLLLLL!!!!!!  - Hank Williams, Jr.

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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 89 11:39 EST
From: Mike Fertsch <FERTSCH at adc1.adc.ray.com>
Subject: Missing Digests

> I would like someone who has the back issues of the Homebrew Digest saved
> to please send me #'s 294 and 295.  I only received a partial copy of 294. 
> I have contacted a few other folks who have the same problem.  Thanks. 

Me too!  I have half of 294 and none of 295.  Can you help us out Rob?

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 10 Nov 89 11:18:34 MST
From: roberts%studguppy at LANL.GOV (Doug Roberts  at  Los Alamos National Laboratory)
Subject: Kegging

> I have just started kegging my beer using 5 gallon syrup canisters.  Does
> anyone  know of an inexpensive source of new and/or used kegs?  I recently
> received a  catalog from Braukunst which seems to have pretty decent prices as
> well as a  wide variety of kegging related merchandise, but I was wondering if
> anyone has  had any luck getting kegs from a local soft drink
> bottler/supplier. 

A few years ago, I approached the owner of the snack bar in a building that I
used to work in. He agreed to sell me a couple of cornelius' for his deposit:
$25 at the time. I could use one more, so one of these days I'll check to see
if he's still agreeable to the idea. 

You might try the same thing in your area.

--Doug

================================================================
Douglas Roberts                |
Los Alamos National Laboratory |I can resist anything
Box 1663, MS F-602             |  except temptation.
Los Alamos, New Mexico 87545   |  ...
(505)667-4569                  |Oscar Wilde
dzzr at lanl.gov                  |
================================================================

Date: Fri, 10 Nov 89 11:24:25 MST
From: roberts%studguppy at LANL.GOV (Doug Roberts  at  Los Alamos National Laboratory)
Subject: Is homebrew a bargain?

I also brew because I enjoy making great beers. But some how the fact that my
$1.68/six-pack brew tasts better than the $7.00 store-bought variety makes it
even more fun! 

--Doug

================================================================
Douglas Roberts                |
Los Alamos National Laboratory |I can resist anything
Box 1663, MS F-602             |  except temptation.
Los Alamos, New Mexico 87545   |  ...
(505)667-4569                  |Oscar Wilde
dzzr at lanl.gov                  |
================================================================

Date: 	Fri, 10 Nov 89 14:22:42 EST
From: Ken Darcovich <050235%UOTTAWA.bitnet at ugw.utcs.utoronto.ca>
Subject:      How to enjoy Toronto.

Yo!  So someone with a refined palate for beer would like to exercise this
virtue in Toronto.  I have lived in Toronto in the past and visit there about
once a month.  As far as brewpubs go, I'm not sure that there are too many. 
The popularity of microbrewing seems to have come from the west to the east,
and then hesitantly to Canada.  Anyhow, there are two I know of, the Amsterdam
and the Rotterdam, both owned by the same people, so visiting just one of them
will suffice.  On the other hand, there are several very good craft brewers in
Southern Ontario.  Try: 

Upper Canada Brewery - Toronto
Brick - Peterborough
Wellington County - Guelph? Waterloo?
Halton - Milton
Unicorn -  Mississauga? Oakville?
Sleeman's - Guelph
Connor's - Mississauga
Ottawa Valley - Ottawa

The people at Upper Canada are very accommodating and knowledgeable, and
likely if you look them up and call them, someone there should be able to give
you more up to date information about the local microbrewing scene, including
brewpubs.  There are more than the two I mentioned, but I can't name them
offhand. 

Being prudish Ontario, don't expect beer at a Leafs game. Toronto is a safe,
clean and friendly place as long as you don't make fun of the Blue Jays. 

                                Ken.

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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 89 13:15:12 mst
From: Glenn Colon-Bonet <gcb at hpfigcb>
Subject: Re: Kegging

The 5 gallon stainless steel canisters, or Cornelius kegs, can be purchased
new from a number of distributors.  The Brewer's Warehouse carries 3 and 5
gallon new kegs for $63 and $65 for the "Spartan" (one-handle) model and $67
for the 5 gallon "Super Champion" (two handle plastic top, also Firestone). 
The guy I talked to at the Brewer's Warehouse said they sometimes carry used
kegs for around $35, so you may want to check with them.  Also, Rapids carries
the new 3 and 5 gallon Spartan models for similar or slightly lower prices. 
Now as far as getting ahold of inexpensive used ones, I was able to purchase
some from a small local beverage distributor not affiliated with any of the
major companies for about $20 each. I also found used kegs from Colonel John's
in Boulder, CO for around $30. I don't know if everyone else has had the same
luck I did, but when I tried to purchase used kegs from the major soda
distributors they were not at all helpful.  If you do find used kegs, its a
good idea to replace the rubber O-rings that seal the top of the keg. The old
ones tend to keep their soda flavor regardless of how hard you try to clean
them! 
		    Good Luck!
		    -Glenn

P.S. By the way, Rapids sells a "portable tapper" keg refrigerator that works
great for holding 4 "spartan" cornelius kegs!  They exchanged the single
tapper for a 4 head shotgun tapper and, with a little plumbing, we now have 4
homebrews on tap at all times! 

Kegging Sources:
%Q RAPIDS
%A 1011 2nd Ave. S.W.
%A P.O. Box 396
%C Cedar Rapids
%I IA
%P 52406
%N 800-553-7906
%K supplies mailorder keg commercial
%X Commercial kitchen supplies including kegging equipment and pots, etc.

%Q Brewers Warehouse
%A 4250 Union Bay Pl. N.E.
%C Seatle
%I WA
%P 98105
%N (206) 527-5047
%K brew supplies mailorder
%X each catalog is $1.00
Ask for:
	- Brewing Systems Catalog
	- Keggin Systems Catalog
	- Supplies & Equipment Catalog

%Q Colonel John Brewing Supplies and Equipment
%A 745 Pine Street
%C Boulder
%I CO
%P 80302
%N (303) 442-2789

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Date:     Fri, 10 Nov 89 15:18 EST
From: <BROWN%MSUKBS.BITNET at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:  Green Acres address

Here's the address I promised yesterday:
  Green ACres
216 Vork Rd.
Esko, MN 55733   (218)879-2465

Some sample prices:

6-row pale malt (50 lb.) -- $27 (+ $6-20 shipping, depending on your location)
2-row Klages    (50 lb.) -- $28 (ditto)
Briess unhopped extract (5 gal, 58 lb. pail)  $72 + shipping
Leaf hops  (Cascade, Cluster, Chinook,Perle, Willamette)    $6.60/lb

This is a limited catalogue, but the prices are right, and if you live in the
Midwest, the shipping charges should be low enough to make this a good deal.
Disclaimer: I've never used this company.  I just got the catalogue.

I'm off to have a homebrew . . .           Jackie Brown

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Date: Fri Nov 10 15:34:43 1989
From: microsoft!jamesb at uunet.uu.net
Subject: Clubs/Clans/Gangs....

Does anyone know of such a function in the Great Northwest, ie: Seattle
or Everett.
Or would someone know how to start such a function??
Hmmmmm?

#######################################################################
Jim Broglio                  <      Great minds
Microsoft Corp.              <      Do not
(206) 487-5165               <      Think alike.
                             <
                             <          Someone said it....
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 89 10:59:00 EST
From: bose!chuck at uunet.UU.NET (Chuck Cox)
Subject: Re:  sterilizing & kegging

I have been sterilizing my bottle caps in chlorine for 7 years now with no
problems. 

For the last 2 years I have been sterilizing my carboys & kegs by adding 1 oz
of chlorine to approx 2 quarts of water. I do this as soon as the carboy is
emptied, roll it around a bit, then store it this way.  Because I have so many
carboys & kegs, most will sit for at least a month before being used. I just
roll it around one more time, then rinse with hot water before use. It is a
lot easier to deal with a few quarts of chlorine solution, than 5 gallons. 

On the very rare occasion that I bottle, I spray the bottles with a very
strong chlorine solution and let them sit, instead of soaking them. 

I have had no problems with any of the above techniques, and am currently
recommending them to my students & fellow homebrewers. 

On the subject of acquiring kegs.
I get my kegs from the various bars that I patronize.
I simply pay for the deposit.
For beer kegs it is $10.
For soda kegs it is $0 (not a typo: they are free).
That is why I have 8 soda kegs and only 3 beer kegs.

- Chuck Cox - certified professional beer drinker

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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 89 21:20:26 pst
From: hplabs!garth!apd!phipps
Subject: Re: The great label controversy

>[someone other than I] wrote:
>>
>>After capping,
>>we mark the batch number on each *cap* with an indelible marker.

Because I didn't know of a conventional labelling method that I liked (thus
stimulating my recent submissions to this mailing-list), I originally marked
my bottles only by coloring their caps with different-colored magic markers. 
After my first dozen batches, I tired of what had become an exercise in
heraldry. "Hmmm.  Did my ginger beer have a circle crimson in a cap azure, or
was that a dot scarlet on a cap azure ?" 

On 6 Nov 89 08:25:46 EST (Monday), dw <Wegeng.Henr at Xerox.COM>(Don) wrote:
>
>[Indelible marker ink] can be difficult to read 
>if you're using surplus soft drink caps.

Indeed.  I was using surplus "California Ale" caps--dark blue--at the time.
"Now I remember: my ginger beer had the red ink circle over the blue cap; am I
looking at that, or is this faded purple ink over the blue cap ?" :-( This
also makes it a hassle for someone to grab you the correct cold one when
they're already up and in the fridge or the ice chest. 

I now use one of those dial-a-number stamps with multiple digit bands, along
with a conventional stamp pad, to apply a batch number directly to each cap
after capping.  Stamp-pad ink does require some time to dry on plain gold
caps; it can easily smear into illegibility before it dries. BTW, I originally
bought the stamp for identifying photographic slides on their mounts (for
which it is fast and effective), so its 7 digit positions are overkill for the
frequency with which I brew.  :-) There are stamps available with far fewer
digits; they only cost a few bucks. 

>I write the bottling date on a 1/2 x 3/4 inch self-adhesive label 
>(similar to an address label - available at any office supply store), 
>which I place on the bottle cap. 

An even better idea--from a member of my homebrewing club--is to place one of
those colored penny-size dot-labels (available at most office-supplies stores
?), printed in advance with the desired markings (I'll use a rubber date or
multiband digit stamp) on each cap after capping. I originally intended to use
the color of my stamp pad ink, applied directly to the cap, as an indicator of
beer type, but I learned that some colors of inks can be difficult to
distinguish, even on generic gold metal caps. Furthermore, I have little
desire to amass a huge collection of stamp pads. Different colors of dots will
be a far more effective distinction. This is probably the labelless system
that I will adopt in the near future; however, I still expect to use
traditional bottle labels from time to time. 

[The foregoing may or may not represent the position, if any, of my employer, ]
[ who is identified solely to allow the reader to account for personal biases.]
[Besides, this is a work-break way after hours during what is now the weekend.]
                                              
Clay Phipps                                {ingr,pyramid,sri-unix}!garth!phipps
Intergraph APD, 2400#4 Geng Road, Palo Alto, CA 94303              415/494-8800

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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 89 8:00:16 EST
From: Dr. T. Andrews <ki4pv!tanner at uunet.UU.NET>
Subject: Re: Re: a question of infections [and boiled caps]

) ... bottle caps weren't boiled [inner seals came off in one lot] I've had no
such problem with caps designed for home canning, available from the hardware
store for < $2.50/gross.  These are plain caps, not sugar-water over-runs, and
so contain no chance to win a prize. 

The inner seals cling tenaciously.

Being plain, they're ready if you want to enter your beer in any sort of
competition.  I entered some of #25 in the fair; this was the first time they
could recall having anyone enter beer.  I think that they sampled it warm the
next day.  I don't think that it won any prizes, but I've enjoyed it, as lot
#25 was good beer. Beer is entered under canning as 410: "other liquids". 
--
...!bikini.cis.ufl.edu!ki4pv!tanner  ...!bpa!cdin-1!ki4pv!tanner
or...  {allegra attctc gatech!uflorida uunet!cdin-1}!ki4pv!tanner

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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 89 8:12:55 EST
From: Dr. T. Andrews <ki4pv!tanner at uunet.UU.NET>
Subject: Re: Re: Is Homebrew a Bargain?

) What's all this talk about bargains?  How much is you're [sic]
) time worth?

Well, I originally got started making beer account of the high price of good
beer, and the land payments which were about to leave me in the poor-house. 
Land is paid (modulo taxes every year), but I keep on making beer; it was a
learning experience, and good home-brew is not sold in stores. 

I still appreciate a bargain.  Not the type of bargain which would lead the
boss to buying Intertek (now Wells American) equipment, but a small savings
without loss of benefits.  I consider having my own beer to be a major
benefit, as it is generally made to my taste. 

If I can save some money on my beer without lowering quality, I like that.  I
expect that most of us, not having infinite money supplies, enjoy saving money
on our beer \(em even if we turn around and spend the savings on more beer
supplies. 

You surely don't expect me to complain about the savings on raw honey a couple
of week-ends ago: a place west of Trilby got $10 for 12#; one project this
week-end is therefore a honey-wheat beer. 
-- 
...!bikini.cis.ufl.edu!ki4pv!tanner  ...!bpa!cdin-1!ki4pv!tanner
or...  {allegra attctc gatech!uflorida uunet!cdin-1}!ki4pv!tanner

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Date: Sun, 12 Nov 89 08:45:29 EST
From: hisata!doug at gatech.edu
Subject: Miller Reserve

Several weeks ago, I was contacted by a marketing research firm in Atlanta.  
This  is  a  nice way to get paid for giving your opinion,  and  I've  done 
several  surveys  with a couple of firms.  Anyway, this company  wanted  my 
opinion  on...BEER!   I was interviewed about the types of  beers  I  enjoy 
(other  than my homebrew), what I have in the 'fridge, what I've  drunk  in 
the  last  six months, etc.  Not surprisingly, most of the brands  I  named 
were NOT on their list!  I then had to rate all the varieties in comparison 
with  each other, and with a list of "popular" beers.  (I mean, how do  you 
compare Samuel Smith's Oatmeal Stout to Bud Lite?!)  They then showed me  5 
TV  ads for various beers, and sandwiched in the middle was one  I'd  never 
seen: Miller Reserve.  At this point, it became pretty clear what they were 
testing.  
 
Another  questionnaire rating stupid statements like  "This is a  beer  men 
drink" and "This beer is made with real malt" and "This is a beer I like to 
drink  a lot of when I'm having a good time."  You get the  picture.   They 
had me "buy" some beer at a "store," and since they didn't have any of  the 
brands  I  like,  I  chose  Beck's  Dark,  mumbling  something  about   the 
Reinheitsgebot, the German Purity Law.  After that, I was interviewed about 
my  opinions about beer.  Fortunately, I'd brought my soapbox with  me.   I 
rambled  on about the variety of the world's beer styles, excessive use  of 
adjuncts,  the sameness of American pilsner, etc.  I pleaded with  whatever 
corporate  weinie  would be reading the survey to begin  brewing  ales  and 
beers with some character.
 
So  they  send me home with $26 cash and two six-packs of  Miller  Reserve.  
This  beer  is not yet on the market, as far as I know.  I'm  wondering  if 
it's  a  response  to the rise of microbreweries and a  few  more  educated 
consumers.   The label boasts "100% barley draft."  But don't  get  excited 
and think that the Big Boys have finally seen the light...sorry, the  lite.   
The beer is just a tad darker than an American pilsner, and there is  just 
a hint more body.  It is clean and relatively well balanced.  But there  is 
no  mistaking  the  style.  It tastes about like all the rest  of  the  big 
commercial beers.  Bland and boring and undistinguished.  And shot full  of 
CO2 to make it too fizzy.  Nice try, Miller.  But you still haven't figured 
it out.
 
Excuse me.  My wort is boiling.
 
Doug Allison
UUCP:...!gatech!hisata!doug
 
 
PS   In the state of Georgia.  Home brewing is still an  illegal  activity.  
Quick, call Bill Bennett!  I'm being civilly disobedient!

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Date: Sun, 12 Nov 89 14:58:11 EST
From: Mark.Leone at F.GP.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: Yeast vs. Wort Temperature

Papazian and others recommend pitching yeast only after the wort has cooled to
68 degrees or less.  A dilemma: Suppose your wort is at 80 degrees and you
have to go to work.  Should you (1) pitch the yeast now, or (2) wait eight
hours.  It seems like the latter option gives too much time for bacterial
nasties to take over the wort.  Where do you draw the line?  (I've added yeast
to 85 degree wort and still obtained good results).  Also, when you pitch
(ale) yeast, should you just sprinkle it on top of the wort, or mix it in with
a sanitized spoon? 

On an unrelated note, is there an archive for back issues of the Homebrew
Digest? 

- Mark Leone, mleone at cs.cmu.edu

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #301, 11/13/89

---