---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  RE: HELP : my water really sucks! (mark)
  Re: Lawnmower Beer/ Try Ginger (Jeff Renner)
  insolubility of Calcium phosphate (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  re: Hop Oil as a preservative? (Lou.Heavner)
  Belligerent Blonde Boys (Eric.Fouch)
  re: how many capfuls. (Michael A. Owings)
  Re: Sanitizing via the oven - HBD #3015 (Sheridan Adams)
  BJCP status (jslusher)
  Saturday's toast (John Adsit)
  Wort Cooling (Dan Listermann)
  BigBrew 1999 ("Jeffrey M. Kenton")
  PO4 (AJ)
  O2 caps. ("Rob")
  Brew Bottle Baking (Joy Hansen)
  Honey flavor in beer (PDWaltman)
  240V Power Controller (Biergiek)
  Dead Yeast vs. Living Yeast (Nutrient/autolysis) (Ted McIrvine)
  Scorched wort crud removal and prevention...? ("Chris Pittock")
  Re: BrewPubs in France (mark)
  re: Eating Gyprock Walls ("Dr. Pivo")
  Re: Cleaning O2 caps (pbabcock)
  diacetyl (sedam)
  Guinness heads and nitrogen (David Rinker)
  nitrogen solubility ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  CP bottle giller ("Braam Greyling")
  Re:  Idophor [sic] in high bicarbonate water ("Houseman, David L")
  RE: All-grain brewing ("Craig Wolfangel") (ROATTW)" <ROATTW at UCMAIL.UC.EDU>
  bottles (Jason.Gorman)
  Re: A taste of Gypsum (Jeff Renner)
  Re: kegging question (Jeff Renner)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

2000 MCAB Qualifiers: Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99
(http://burp.org/SoFB99); Oregon Homebrew Festival 5/22/99
(http://www.mtsw.com/hotv/fest.html); Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99
(http://www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:44:26 +0200
From: mark <shrike.cars at accesinternet.com>
Subject: RE: HELP : my water really sucks!

Alan,

Sounds like Iron.... Something you don't want in brewing
water... (not in excess of 5ppm).When I lived in
Connecticut, the water I had had a lot of iron in it,
sometimes even after the water softener got done with it.

So, there's this product called Iron Out, you add it to the
salt in your water softener. It never seemed to create any
problems when I was brewing (excellent water aside from
the Iron) so you might want to give it a try. It can be
purchased at Home Depot etc in the water softener
department....

Or ask some of the more knowledgeable people on this
forum... They can probably help with filters, other products
for removing iron etc. Or tell me that I was crazy to use
Iron Out.... Or maybe I'm wrong about the Iron? If anyone
else knows, please let me know.....

BTW: That water distiller sounds expensive, why not a
filter instead?

Hope that helps...

Prost!
Mark

PS: Any replies, please use the reply-to address at the top of my
message (mark at awfulquiet.com)


- --------
>>>>
>Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:37:32 -0400
>From: Alan McKay <amckay at ottawa.com>
>
>Hi folks,
>
>
<snip>
>As you all know, I moved last weekend.  But my water in my new
>place is horrible!  It tastes rusty.  There is a water softener there,
>and
>I bought salts and put them in, but there is no difference yet.  Maybe
>the thing isn't turned on or something, I don't know.  Or maybe it's
>set to only go off once a week or something.  I'll have to dig into the

>manual and see what's what.
>
>I know I have to get the water tested to see exactly what's going on,
>but aside from that what else can I do?
>
>I'm considering getting a water distiller or something.  Anyone know
>if that's possible, and how much it costs?  Like one of those machines
>that produce the bottled water you buy in drug stores.
>
>Man, this is really, really depressing ...
>
>cheers,
> -Alan



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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:15:39 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Lawnmower Beer/ Try Ginger

Spencer Tomb <astomb at ksu.edu> makes the excellent suggestion of using
ginger and lemon peel in a refresing summer beer and asks:

>I would like to know others experience with Ginger Beers.

A favorite of mine is ginger wit, a standard wit but without orange peel or
lactic acid and with fresh ginger to replace the bite of lactic acid.  The
recipe is at Cat's Meow:

http://hbd.org/brewery/cm3/recs/09_85.html

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:02:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: insolubility of Calcium phosphate

Hi all. Our e-mail system here at Hopkins apparently got hacked and has been
nearly unusable for weeks now (consequently, I've been unususally productive
in the lab for a change!) The system is slowly getting back into shape and
even lets us e-mail out during off hours. Ahhhh modern technology, gotta love
it.


Matt Brooks recently wrote: 

>Subject: Phosphate removal using Calcium

>You would have to use an awful lot of CaSO4 or CaCl  to precipitate
>phosphate (PO4) in water or wort.  In the field of Water Treatment,
>phosphate is removed with quicklime or CaO (generally added in a slaked
>form of CaOH2), when added in this form the pH of the water rises
>quickly.  It is important to note that this is not an equivalent per
>equivalent based
>reaction as many chemical reactions are, it is a pH dependent reaction
>and phosphate WILL NOT PRECIPITATE (as hydroxyapatite) UNTIL THE pH
>REACHES 11.0 (or higher), after which point there is no stopping the
>reaction less you add an acid to lower the pH below 11.0.

>I seriously doubt anyone would/could be adding enough Calcium (Ca
>anything) to get the pH up above 11.0 ?  (even if your alkalinity was
>low to begin with)

>Matt B.
>Northern VA.


Matt, I don't understand your stated requirement for high pH in order to get
CaPO4 to precipitate. Years back we were doing enzyme kinetic studies in which
we were using a phosphate buffer system. The enzyme had an absolute
requirement for calcium so we were titrating in calcium and it didn't take
long before we started getting anomalous readings and when we took the cuvette
out of the fluorometer sure enough we'd precipitated out the phosphate with
the added calcium. All this was at a pH of 6.8 and certainly never got
anywhere near 11. 

Of course, the concentrations of phosphate and calcium we were using may not
have been close to those encountered in brewing so I did some back of the
envelope calculations and a quickie experiment to check this out...

Question 1: What calcium concentrations are homebrewers typically generating
in their water treatment protocols? 

Well, obviously it's a bit complicated by factors such as the inorganic
composition of the water to begin with and whether one does things like boil
the water but I think that homebrewers adding CaCl2 or CaSO4 to their water
will be attaining Ca levels on the order of 2-5 mM (this assumes additions of
5-10 grams of either salt to a 20L/5 gallon batch). 

Question 2: How much phosphate is developed in the mash? 

Again a bit complex, depends upon the malts used, what form of phosphate we
are talking about, etc.. The only source I could quickly lay my hands on (MBAA
The Practical Brewer) quotes PO4 levels in wort at between 575 and 846 mg/L
for a 12 degP wort. This comes out to be roughly milimolar amounts of
phosphate but this is for /wort/ so I imagine the actual levels in the mash
itself may be substantially higher due to the lower pre-sparge volume.

Question 3: What is the behavior of calcium and phosphate at these
concentrations?

In a quick and dirty experiment I took 1 volume of a 10mM phosphate buffer  
(pH= 7.4) and mixed in an equal volume of 10mM CaCl2 (final concentration of
5mM for each) A cloudy white precipitate immediately formed. The measured pH
after ppt. was virtually unchanged. 

So, it seems clear to me that Ca and PO4 readilly precipitate at neutral pH.
The question then arises as to what happens in the mash or wort. It may be
that in the case of brewing the Ca and/or PO4 are tied up with other
compounds-- the mash liquor and wort are, after all, much more complex than
the simple buffer solutions we're playing around with here in the lab. 
Perhaps concentrations of the free ions are below the levels at which
appreciable precipitation occurs? Anyone have any data on this? Surely someone
must have looked at this...

 -Alan Meeker

    



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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:55:45 -0500
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: re: Hop Oil as a preservative?

     Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com> writes:

     >>>>>
     > How about just making it without hops at all? If it could be done
     500
     years
     > ago, I'm sure that it can be done now. Unless you are planning on
     storing
     > the ale in less than ideal conditions for long periods, I cannot
     imagine
     any
     > problems. I also believe that some of these old ales were quite sour
     > affairs, so lack of hops may be an advantage.

     The problem here that ale in period was consumed very quickly, and
     usually
     did not last long.  two weeks was about the longest you could keep it.
      So
     many of the recipes I am reproducing are only meant to be around for
     short
     periods of time.  But I can only drink so much beer myself, so I want
     to
     preserve it.

     Also my research seems to point to the use of herbs (besides for
     medicinal
     purposes) was to mask the off flavors of infected ale.  Hops was known
     very
     early on (pre 1000) for its preservative properties.  The English were
     the
     last to fall sway to the "demon weed" which was being brought in by
     the
     Flemish.
     <<<<<

     Hi Badger,

     I can see 3 approaches you might try.  They all have trade-offs.

     1) For true authenticity, brew more frequently in smaller batches
     which you are able to consume in a short period of time.  Of course,
     it may be hard to scale down to very small sized batches and still
     retain the desired level of authenticity. And if you have a family
     like mine, you will never have enough time to brew a continuous supply
     of beer doing small batches.

     2) Bottle the beer and consume as normal.  What you didn't finish in a
     couple weeks, pasteurize.  You should be able to do this safely in a
     hot water bath slightly below boiling for 30 minutes or so.  In this
     case, you should get stable beer unless there are problems with yeast
     autolysis/decomposition or other heat induced chemical reactions.
     With no hops, at least you wouldn't have to worry about skunking.

     3) Sterile filter the beer.  This requires the filtration equipment
     and would probably strip out a lot of flavor as well.  If you keg,
     this may be a reasonable approach.  Just drink the beer for a couple
     weeks and what is left over could be transferred to a sanitized keg
     via a sterile fitration setup.

     Regards,

     Lou Heavner - Austin, Tx


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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:18:00 -0400
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Belligerent Blonde Boys

HBD-
Jasons just a little belligerent, 'cause my seven month old bottle of Imperial
Stout hosed most of his basement during the Redwings SWEEP of Anaheim.

Related to Jasons aforeunaswered question about yeast autolysis as yeast
nutrient- When I bottled up my latest wit, it had only been in the primary for
15 days, but smelled (not reeked) of autolysis.  I bottled anyway, hoping the
answer to Jason's question will be "Yes- yeast will reabsorb some autolysed
odors."
I used Wyeast 3944.  I have never had autolysis in the primary.  Even after
letting beers sit for 3-4 weeks unracked.  I built a big starter, had good
fermentation (still a few bubbles an hour when I bottled), so I don't know
where this autolysis came from.  OK I know where, but not why.

Fred's at a loss.  He told Jason to ask somebody else out of fear of his wrath
at not knowing the answer.

Eric (Why does daddy Steven hold daddy Michael like that?) Fouch
Bent Dick (Oh- THAT'S why) YoctoBrewery
Kentwood, MI







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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 15:56:01 GMT
From: mikey at swampgas.com (Michael A. Owings)
Subject: re: how many capfuls.

zzymurgist at yahoo.com asks:
> How many capfuls of BTF in 5 gallons equals 25ppm?
> Somewhere along the way I picked up 1 capful for each
> gallon, so hopefully this is close.

I think 1 cap full for each gallon is a bit too much. 

>From the BTF instructions: One cap (1/4 oz) in 2.5 gals will give you
12.5 ppm, so two capfulls/5 gallons is about right. 4 capfuls would
give you 25ppm in 5 gals, but this is hardly necessary -- 12.5 ppm
should be fine. Note that your cap size may vary -- I use the large
size BTF bottle.
***********************
Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
The courage to change the things I can. *** And the wisdom to 
hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they pissed 
me off ***


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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:15:12 -0500
From: Sheridan Adams <sjadams at Legato.COM>
Subject: Re: Sanitizing via the oven - HBD #3015 


Richard writes:
For bottling my last two batches, I sanitized my RETURNABLE beer bottles by
rinsing them in household water and then baking them in the oven for 30
minutes.  For the first "bake" (first batch bottled) I used a temperature of
275 degrees and one or two of the 54 bottles broke.  For the second bake
(next batch), I used a lower temperature of 250 degrees and about 10 of the
bottles broke... Question, has anyone been successful sanitizing in the oven
and what is wrong with my procedure or what is the suggested oven procedure?
Thanks.

Richard,
	I think there may be a couple of things going on here.  First off,
are you putting the bottles in the oven wet?  Is the oven pre-heated?
Either of these things could cause the bottles to break due to uneven
heating.  I would suggest putting dry bottles in a cold oven.  Also, you may
want to raise the temperature slower than the oven normally does.  You'd do
this but setting the thermostat higher in intervals of, say, 10 minutes.
And one other thought, check to see if the bottles have any 'dings' or
defects.  That could be another cause.
Lurch



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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:03:20 -0400
From: jslusher <jslusher at flash.net>
Subject: BJCP status

Does anyone know of its status...I keep getting a "no DNS entry" when I try
to access "http://www.bjcp.org"...has it changed addresses?...Cheers!



************************************************
John Slusher
jslusher at flash.net
http://www.flash.net/~jslusher/crabs
************************************************


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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:34:49 -0600
From: John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us>
Subject: Saturday's toast

Dear group,

I have been immersed in the details of my work here in the school
district where I work.  I did take a moment a while back to try to clear
my head and read an HBD or two; I even responded to a question off
list.  I would just like to ask you all a favor.

I am going to do the big brew thing as a part of a return to normality.
When we do the toast, I will add a thought for the fallen students in my
school district.  I will especially remember my friend and rival coach,
Dave Sanders.

I hope you will join me.

- --
John Adsit
Instructional Services
Jefferson County Schools
Golden, Colorado
jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us




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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 15:18:26 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Wort Cooling


Regarding Andrew Nix's response to my post, perhaps I failed to make my
point clear.

The object in wort cooling is to cool the  wort to pitching temperature,
say 75 F, as quickly as possible. There are at least two nonchiller ways 
to
do this when brewing with concentrated worts such as most extract brews. 

Most books tell you to combine the boiling wort with water and cool to
pitching temperature.  Unless the water is very cold and / or the wort is

rather concentrated, this can take a long time and leave the wort exposed

to some bug loving temperatures for long peroids.  


Another way is to cool the boiling wort while it is in the pot before
mixing it with the water.  Remember our goal to to cool the  wort to
pitching temperature as quickly as possible.  


Moving heat energy is easier when there is a high differential in the
temperatures between the object being cooled and the cooling medium. 

Boiling wort contains about half the mass of the whole wort, but most of
the heat energy.  It will be far easier to remove the heat in this state
rather than after it is mixed in with the rest of the water when the
temperature differential between the cooling medium and the wort will be
much lower.

Interestingly the specific heat of wort is very close to the specific 
heat
of water so these calculations should be simple.  Let us say that we have

2.5 gallons of wort at 200 F.  Its heat content is about 2.5 * 200 = 
500. 

2.5 gallons of 55 F water has a heat content of 2.5 * 55 = 137.5 .  
Mixing
these two will produce  a wort with a temperature of (500 + 137.5 )  / 5
gallons = 127.5 F.  Please note that no heat has been removed from the
wort.  We need to now reduce this thermal mass to 75  F with cooling 
water
or an ice bath.  This could take some time, especially considering that 
the
temperature differential between the wort and the cooling medium gets
rather close toward the end.


Cooling  the boiling wort in the pot BEFORE mixing it with the water is
much easier.   The heat content of the finished wort will be 5 * 75 = 
375 

The heat content of the water is 2.5 * 55 = 137.5.    Subtracting one 
from
the other leaves us with 237.5 in the 2.5 gallons of wort.  The wort in 
the
pot will need to be cooled to 137.5 / 2.5 = 95 F.  When it is combined 
with
the 2.5 gallons of 55 F water the temperature will be 75 F.   When I brew

with extracts I just cool the pot in a stationary tub full of cold water.
 

Only two or three water changes are required.  I don't waste my time or
money with ice.

To get the same performance from near freezing water you would have to 
boil
a concentrated wort of only 1.25 gallons and combine it with 3.75 gallons

of 32 F water.  The astute will note that worts of that concentration are

prone to caramelization and poor hop utilization.

I apologize in advance for the use of aproximations, the lack of large
decimal point counts and maybe lacking terms.  It has been some time.  

Just multiply the gallons times the temperature.   It works.

Dan Listermann    dan at listermann.com        72723.1707 at compuserve.com

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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 15:13:39 -0500
From: "Jeffrey M. Kenton" <jkenton at iastate.edu>
Subject: BigBrew 1999

Fellow Brewers:

I just want to go on the record and say that I think Big Brew is a great
idea. I also hope that the annual nature of it continues into the future.
As a member of a recently developed homebrew club in Ames, IA, I can attest
that there are many more brewers out there just waiting to be found.  Big
Brew is a great way to reacquaint onesself with his or her brewing
compatriates, and even more importantly, to meet new brewing "buddies."

I intend to use the chance on Saturday May 1st to learn even more about
brewing from some very fresh faces. Look for a notice from me on the
location of the Big Brew pics from Site #2. 

I wrote this message with the thought that it might be published May 1st,
so if you are within one hours drive of Ames, give me a yell by email. I'll
be checking it hourly on Saturday. The festivities start at 1pm CDT, but
will probably last well into the afternoon.

I hope everyone is having fun. I know I am.

Jeff


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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:43:50 -0500
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: PO4

There has been some discussion as to whether excess calcium can strip a
wort of its phosphate. This is quite unlikely as there is quite a bit of

phosphate in barley (around 1% of its weight). Assuming nominal water to

grist ratios and that all the phosphate is solubilized and freed (from
phytin) this would give about 30 millimoles per liter. By comparison,
very hard water has, say, 300 mg/L Ca++ which is only 7.5 mM/L. Thus
phosphate is going to be in excess except in very unusual cases and it
is more likely that calcium will be stripped by the phosphate rather
than the other way around. But don't worry about that. You won't drop
all the calcium with an excess of phosphate any more than you will drop
it all with excess carbonate.

Matt Brooks posted in #3016 that phosphate does not precipitate until
high pH is reached and that the precip does not form on an equivalent
per equivalent basis. Strictly speaking neither of these statements is
quite correct
though we could proably accept the former in a practical sense. Since
the chemistry is similar to that which pertains in the case of
decarbonation with lime for which I posted a procedure a day or 2 ago
I'll discuss the mechanism a bit. Carbon
dioxide can participate in the following reactions in water

CO2 + H2O  <-->  H2CO3  <--> H+   + HCO3-   <--->  H+   + CO3--

With phosphorous pentoxide the reactions are similar

P2O5 + 3H2O <--> 2H3PO4 <-->  2H+   + 2H2PO4-   <--> 2 H+   + 2HPO4--
<-->

2H+   + 2PO4---

In both cases we move to the right at high pH and to the left at low i.e
at low pH (acid conditions) H2CO3 and H3PO4 are the predominant species
and at high pH (alkaline conditions) bicarbonate and phosphate ions are
predominant.
Thus, since calcium bicarbonate and calcium dihydrogen phosphate are
quite soluble whereas calcium carbonate and calcium phosphate are not,
to remove carbonate and phosphate from water  we raise the pH converting
them to, respecitively CO3-- and PO4---, in the presence of calcium as,
for example, by using calcium hydroxide as the alkali). This promotes
the formation of highly insoluble calcium carbonate and calcium
phosphate (actually hydroxyappatite in the case of phosphate but its not
so simple with phosphate, especially when carbonate is also present)
which
precipitates. As the solids leave the solution PO4--- and CO3--
concentrations are reduced which upsets the equilibrium between the
varios ions which are in proportions determined by the pH and pK's of
the acids. To restore
the proportions to equilibrium values either protonated species (HCO3-,
H2PO4-, HPO4--) must convert to less protonated species (lose protons)
or the pH must be lowered or both. Both applies  here as conversion to
less
protonated forms releases protons (H+ ions) which lowers the pH. This is

the mechanism responsible for the fall-back in pH which I mentioned in a

previous post on decarbonation by lime. These reactions occur on an
equivalent basis as do all reactions. The distinction here is that one
must keep track of the variations in the realtive proportions of the
different species which is a function of pH.

The decrease in pH can be used to detect the fact that precipitation is
taking place, even at low pH. To demonstrate precipitation of phosphate,
for example, I made up a solution of equimolar ( 1 millimole per liter)
concentrations of potassium dihydrogen phosphate and sodium monohydrogen
phosphate. This "buffer" has pH about 7.18. Adding the neutral salt
calcium chloride in the amount of 2 mM/L caused a drop in the pH of
about 0.16 pH units. Even though no precipitate is visible, it is the
precipitation which is responsible for the pH drop. What does this tell
us about using hard tap water to mix phosphate bufferes for calibration
of pH meters?

The best demonstration of precipitation of phosphate comes when we add
hard water to malt. The pH drop seen there is from this mechanism we've
been discussing.

Note that I have been purposely a little vague about exactly what it is
that precipitates. Hydroxyapatite is probably what precipitates in the
main but some authors  suggestthat dibasic calcium phosphate (CaHPO4)
may also precipitate. To further complicate the picture interconversion
between hysdroxyapatite and calcium carbonate can occur depending on pH
and total phosphate present. Furthermore, the solubility product of
hydroxyappatite is uncertain to about 10 orders of magnitude.



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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:24:23 -0500
From: "Rob" <brewmasters at texasbrew.com>
Subject: O2 caps.

I keep reading on how do you clean the special O2 caps. I'm wondering if
anyone has asked a micro or a major on how they clean theirs.  I have asked
and this 1 (one) micro said that they didn't. They dump them right out of
the freshly opened box and cap them without cleaning any of them. That was
almost 2 years ago and I haven't cleaned any of my caps since.  I haven't
had any problems since. I'm knocking on wood as I'm typing. I won't say what
micro it was but it is one of the largest in the Midwest area. They have
constantly had good beer. So I think that as long as you don't allow them to
get dirty you should be ok. I am sure now the purists will really object to
this but ask yourselves have you tried it?

Rob
Brew Masters
426 Butternut
Abilene, TX 79602
1-915-677-1233
1-888-284-2039
savebig at texasbrew.com



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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:23:16 +0000
From: Joy Hansen <happyhansen at scronline.com>
Subject: Brew Bottle Baking

Hi All,

Got a couple of questions about oven sterilization of brew bottles that
the collective might be able to provide an answer for.

Ever wonder why microbiologists invented an autoclave?

Ever wonder what the difference is between "dry heat" and "wet heat"
sterilization?

Ever wonder why many home brewers use a pressure cooker for
sterilization?

                   Joy"T"Brew




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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:51:57 -0400
From: PDWaltman <awapuhoq at mindspring.com>
Subject: Honey flavor in beer


Trevor asked about Honey Flavor in Beer:
>I have recently brewed a mead and a Honey Cinnimon Wheat beer thinking that
>the flavour of the honey would remain. I appreciate the dryness that the
>honey adds ( it compliments the cinnimon flavour beautifully ) but i would
>like to leave the honey flavour. 

A honey flavor is certainly easy in mead, so I'm assuming he was asking
about the flavor in beer.  My experience with beer is that you need an
absence of strong flavors in the beer to catch the flavors of clover honey
in beer.  I've gotten honey flavor with clover or orange blossum honey with
honey added to a secondary in ales.  The downside is that not all the honey
disolves so expect a layer on the bottom of the carboy or bucket that won't
get used.

A stronger honey that clover or orange blossom will come through better in
a beer.  A strong honey that would require a "longer" age-time when made
into mead (such as buckwheat) might make an excellent addition to some
beers with stronger flavors.

As for priming, I've not done honey as a primer.  If you boiled the honey
to sanitize before adding, you might lose some of the flavors and aromas.

Dennis Waltman





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Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 01:20:38 EDT
From: Biergiek at aol.com
Subject: 240V Power Controller

Junior has asked me to help him with his preschool science project.  He wants 
to build an infinite power control for our 240V electric heating element clad 
brew kettle, similar to a Bruheat Boiler.  We want to be able to have 
infinite power settings to control the vigor of the boil.  I ran across an 
SSR that is an analog power controller that produces a variable output from 
0% to 100% for 240V up to 15A.  The relay is digikey part number CC1165-ND, 
enter this part number at the url below to check it out:

http://www.digikey.com/DigiKey.DKS

The relay controls the power output with a 3V to 10V DC input.  How can I 
make this thing work for what I want it to do?  What type of part can I use 
to vary the DC input voltage?  How are the 2-120V lines wired to the relay?  

Or, is there an easier/better way to control the 240V feeding the electric 
heating element?  I have tried using an electric stove top burner controller, 
but the on/off cycles produced by the controller are spaced too far apart to 
produce a continuous   and even power level and boil.  Right now I am using a 
diode to block half the voltage, which generates half the power to the boil.  
This gives me a high boil without the diode, and a low boil with the diode.  
The high setting produces a too vigorous boil, and the low setting barely 
creates a boil...  I, uh, we would like in-between power settings.

Any suggestions will be appreciated unless they are from desk hammer jacks 
Eric Fouch or Jason Gorman (they know I don't need a smiley).

Kyle
brewing in Bakersfield, CA  


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Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 02:08:30 -0700
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Dead Yeast vs. Living Yeast (Nutrient/autolysis)

> 
Yeast hulls are DEAD YEAST; when I make mead I used to boil some old
yeast cake and it serves as yeast nutrient.  (I don't anymore, I simply
pitch enough yeast grown using malt extract.)  Yeast autolysis occurs
when living yeast runs out of maltose and other fermentable sugars and
basically becomes a cannibal that eats other yeast.  So dead yeast can
be a nutrient, and living yeast that doesn't have sugar to grow can be a
menace.  Alas, once you get the rubbery smell, it is hard to eliminate
in my experience.

Cheers
Ted

> From: Jason.Gorman at steelcase.com
> Subject: Yeast Autolysis
> 
> A while back I posted this question on yeast autolysis and I received no
> responses.  
> I did some searching in the archives, but could not find the information I was
> looking for.  From what I have read, autolysis is basically the spilling of
> the yeast guts into the beer.  Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this
> basically yeast nutrient?  If you transfer to a secondary and add some DME,
> will you get renewed fermentation and rid yourself of the rubbery autolysis
> taste and smell?
> 
> Jason Gorman
> River Dog Brewery


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Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:47:51 +1000
From: "Chris Pittock"<Chris.Pittock at nre.vic.gov.au>
Subject: Scorched wort crud removal and prevention...?


Hi All,
My brewing boiler is an old copper hot-water heater which was corroded
through the bottom, which has been  turned over and had the corroded part
cut away. With this boiler now set up as shown in the cheesy ASCII diagram
(below), I get a reasonable boil from the gas burner, but after each
additional batch the drain gets slower and slower... I've tried clearing
out the drain pipe, and get crunchy flakes of burnt wort sugars out of
it... Fortunately no noticable acrid burnt tastes in the brews as yet!
Two questions:
1. What's good for getting gunge like this out of hard to get at spots?
Liquid X + heat??
2. Any wisdom on a good shielding method for the drain pipe?

|       BOILER       |
|                    |
|                    |
|                    |
\       DRAIN        /
 \________ _________/
          U        __
 GUNGE ->>U========O= TAP
              PIPE
         OOO
  GAS   OoooO
BURNER  OoooO=======\ <-- *VERY* CHEESY FLEXED GAS HOSE DIAGRAM
         OOO        \|
                    _U_
                   |   | GAS
                   |   | BOTTLE
                   |___|


LIGHT BEERS IN OZ
In Australia at the moment we've had a sudden influx of "premium" light
beers onto the market (which is good!). These lights actually taste like
beer!!! Note to US brewers: "light" refers to alcohol content *not*
calories.... The mega-swill mob have somehow got it together on this - even
so far as to release their different versions within the same week!

TIA, Chris Pittock (430 Km West of Coopers Brewery).




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Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:21:48 +0200
From: mark <shrike.cars at accesinternet.com>
Subject: Re: BrewPubs in France

John,

Thanks for the tip... I'll see where that is and possibly pass by
there...

Thanks!

Mark


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Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:50:23 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: re: Eating Gyprock Walls

Phil and Jill wrote. (that must of been one confusing wedding ceremony:
"We've come to unite Phil and Jill, er, Jill and Phil, Oh crap, give me
a pill"

> Dr Pivo's suggestion to try a bit of calcium sulphate in the
> brew took my fancy. Very carefully I cut out a section of the kitchen wall,
> scraped off the paint and ground the remaining chunk straight into my latest
> dark wheat beer. The result was awful!!

Comments:

1: Should have left the paint on... it adds to the "body" and
"mouthfeel".

2: > The result was awful!! <snip>
Awful? Awful? I just knew someone was going to get that taste
description wrong.


3:> ground the remaining chunk straight into my latest
> > dark wheat beer

Just where do you get "dark wheat"?

4: Your problem was obviously that you chose a portion of the kitchen
wall.  The fats (or "lipids") that have soaked into  the gyprock over
time, have complexed with the sulfates there. Since we know that fatty
acids of less than 12 carbons in length have the opposite effect of
those greater than twelve with respect to ester formation, the more
volatile fats have most certainly caused a "side chain shift" with your
hop residues, enhancing the astringency.

Had you chosen your bathroom wall instead, you would have found that the
uric acid crystal residues there would have had quite the opposite
effect.

I'd suggest redoing the experiment, but using the bathroom wall instead
(preferably with wall paper intact, see comments above regarding
"body").
Take a bigger chunk next time, and if your wife objects?  I'm sure there
are still plenty of lasses out their with names that rhyme with "Phil",
and it's about time she found that out.

> It has been raining here in Sydney

Say, you wouldn't mind if I "borrowed" your house for a few weeks in
September of, say, next year? I won't complin about the holes in the
kitchen and bathroom walls, honest.

Dr. Pivo


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Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 07:32:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: Re: Cleaning O2 caps


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

"Rob" shares:

> and this 1 (one) micro said that they didn't. They dump them right out of
> the freshly opened box and cap them without cleaning any of them. That was
> almost 2 years ago and I haven't cleaned any of my caps since.  I haven't
<...> 
> constantly had good beer. So I think that as long as you don't allow them to
> get dirty you should be ok. I am sure now the purists will really object to
> this but ask yourselves have you tried it?

Call me a purist, but the shop I buy my caps from has them in an open box
from which I use a metal scoop to transfer them to my waiting bag. Being
open as such, I cannot be certian that they would be in the same state as
those taken from a freshly open box (possibly the key to their/your
success with the no-clean method). Any brewer worthy of their salt will
tell you that you don't want to expose wort or beer to grain dust, right?
All those lacto-buggies (among others) like to hitchhike on the husk and
end up on the dust, we're told. Well, I've never seen much care taken in
this particular shop (or any other, for that matter) to prevent said dust
from mingling with the nearby caps.

Sooooo, those of us who don't buy caps by the boxload and use them all up
at once need to know how to clean them.

My solution? I don't use O2 absorbing caps. Plain ol' caps have worked
fine for this brewer

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."





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Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 07:40:07 -0400
From: sedam at bellsouth.net
Subject: diacetyl

Alan:

I've used analytical-grade diacetyl in a food preparation (was trying to
make a new microwave popcorn formulation) and I wouldn't recommend your
experiment.  (1) metering this out in your beer would be tough, and (2)
IF you wanted to do this, you'd need a serious hood (class 2?).  The
smell of, or should I say effect of smelling, pure diacetyl is sheer and
utter revulsion.  I opened the bottle outside of the hood and within 10
seconds was ready to revisit my breakfast.  Better yet, within 5 minutes
the very last lab in the hall (some 350 meters away) felt exactly the
same way.  I wasn't a very popular person.

By the way, diacetyl is as simple a name as it gets.  Aldrich or Sigma
sells it.

Cheers!
Marc



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Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:48:08 -0400
From: David Rinker <David_Rinker at med.unc.edu>
Subject: Guinness heads and nitrogen

Data point:

In my small kegging set up--beer line is about 3 feet--I can easily and
regularly  get a "Guinness pour"  with only a picnic tap.  I'm not
exaggerating (and I have witnesses): the head is finely-bubbled, creamy,
long-lasting and leaves a nice white coating of bubbles all along the
sides of the emptied glass.  Just keep the carbonation level of the beer
low, but push it under a higher pressure through a barely-opened picnic
tap (i.e. store the kegged beer at around one atmosphere but crank up
the CO2 when dispensing).  This will not work if you mistakenly leave
the keg under the higher dispensing pressure long enough to raises the
dissolved-CO2 levels in the beer..

Irrational leap of faith...:

I agree with Al --the N2's main role is in pushing the beer down the
lines while preventing the beer itself from becoming over-carbonated in
the keg.  The bubbles themselves are mostley CO2 (but with trace
ammounts of nitrogen in proportion to the N2's limited soulibility).
This is a logical solution where long beer lines are involved and the
keg is kept under dispensing pressure constantly.

David
Durham, NC



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Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:49:47 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: nitrogen solubility

In #3018 AK asks,"But how much nitrogen actually dissolves in the beer? 

Very little.
I don't have any books (even in those 900 boxes) that give the
relative solubilities of CO2 and N2... could someone post them?"

>From "Stout" by Lewis he states the volume of CO2 in a Guinness is 1.8
volumes
and nitrogen is 0.018. With the N/CO2 ratio of 3/1 I would say the 
relative
solubilities are 1:300. With a UK pint being approx. 591.25 mL; that 
would
put about 5.91 mL of nitrogen in the beer. With a typical head-stand of
about
10%, even if _all_ the nitrogen broke out (it doesn't) and became a 
factor
in the head the head would be only 10% nitrogen. The same low solubility
that makes
it difficult to get the nitrogen into the beer makes it equally hard for
the
nitrogen to evolve back out. This is easily likened to the "bends" when
deep-sea
diving. When depressurizing while surfacing the nitrogen doesn't outgas 
at
the
same rate as CO2; only after great depressurization does the N break out
creating
tiny bubbles in the bloodstream, and the painfull/deadly bends.
  Now after typing all this, the mechanism of the foam stand may have 
come 

to
light! If the N content of the foam is < approx. 10%, the action would be

that
atmospheric N would be_very_slowly_ diffusing _into_the bubbles, helping
maintain
the foam; compared to a 100% CO2 bubble that would quickly (relatively
speaking) diffuse its' gas out to the atmosphere thus falling foam-stand.

  

  


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Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:48:58 +200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azona.com>
Subject: CP bottle giller

Hi all,

What is a good quality , easy to use, counter pressure filler to buy?
Where can I get one for a good price ?

Regards



Braam Greyling      
Snr. Design Engineer
Azona(Pty)Ltd     
tel +27 12 6641910  fax +27 12 6641393


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Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:57:01 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Re:  Idophor [sic] in high bicarbonate water

I'm not a chemist, nor do I play one on TV.  But I know the makeup of my
water and it's very soft (water softener) which I had analyzed.  This is use
and adjust to about any water chemistry I need to brew (with the help of the
occasional RO gallon or two).  Just some sodium and cloride is about all
that's present -- except for some dissolved iron.  That's the reason my wife
had me get the softener and filters is the red rust stains in the laundry.
Most of this is taken out but a small amount make it through.  I don't know
if this is Fe++ or Fe+++ but I do know that chlorine, and yes folks,
iodophor, does cause a brick red sediment over time in my iodophor storage
carboy.  It seems to be harmless and gets discarded occasionally; I just
don't siphon it out when I'm siphoning iodophor into something that needs to
sanitized.  My suspicion is that this is a form of iron that's being
parcipitated out, not a bicarbonate or magnesium or whatever else.  YVMV.

Dave Houseman


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Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:57:55 -0400
From: "Roat, Todd (ROATTW)" <ROATTW at UCMAIL.UC.EDU>
Subject: RE: All-grain brewing ("Craig Wolfangel")


http://www.listermann.com/mash.html
 
When I converted to all-grain I was feeling a bit overwhelmed.  I am of the
"keep it simple" with no interest in complexity of systems.  This
description of how easy all-grain can be brought things into simple
perspective for me and was a great starting point.
 
Hope it helps!
 
Todd
Cincinnati, Ohio
 
Todd W. Roat
Clinical Trials Coordinator
EMCREG Coordinator
Department of Emergency Medicine
231 Bethesda Avenue
Cincinnati, Ohio  45267-0769
(P)513-558-5216
(F)513-558-5791
emcreg at uc.edu
todd.roat at uc.edu
 


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Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:02:00 -0400
From: Jason.Gorman at steelcase.com
Subject: bottles

Geek mode on and.............Begin.

The reason the bottles are breaking in the oven is because of the cooling
gradient along the cross-section of the bottle.  When you cool the bottle too
fast the outsides cool faster than the insides ( the glass not the empty air
space of the bottle).  The faster cooling outer area contracts at a faster
rate than the interior.  This creates a internal tensile stress.  Glass does
not handle tensile stress very well.  If the contraction happens too fast, the
bottle can't hold up and it breaks.  The main reason is regular glass has a
relatively high thermal expansion coefficient , which means it expands and
contract a lot during heating.  In contrast, Pyrex has a relatively low TEC.
That is why you can heat and cool it rapidly without breaking it.  Glass is
also very notch sensitive, so any chips or scratches will enhance the problem.


As far as an explanation for some of the brewers methods.  The water in the
bottles may create a heat sink slowing the cooling rate.  Stacking the bottles
like cord wood creates more mass and the bottles may cool slower, but you take
the risk "if one goes they all go".

I also have other lawn chairs.

Jason Gorman- Self proclaimed genious and part time proctologist.
River Dog Brewery


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Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:56:50 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: A taste of Gypsum

Joy Hansen <happyhansen at scronline.com> brewed with plaster of Paris and asked:

 Any thoughts on the purity and/or trace elements I've
>added to my brew?
>
>Is this a ruinous brew? :)

I'll confess my dirty little secret - I brewed with plaster of Paris my
first years 20+ years ago - dozens of brews, until common sense convinced
me that a few cents wasn't worth potentially risking my health.  I also
wondered about trace heavy metals, etc.  It didn't affect the beers, or me,
either.  I'm OK, OK, OK, OK, OK.......

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:06:54 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: kegging question

>"Dann Holmes" <dholmes3 at virtu.sar.usf.edu> asks:
>I was wondering if it was possible to keg and force carbonate less liquid
>than the keg is able to hold..  i want to keg and force carbonate 3 gallons
>of cider, and i only have access to a 5 gallon keg.. can i do that, or will
>it hurt the keg, or not carbonate, or something?

No problem, just make sure to purge the tank of air.  The best way to do
this is to fill a sanitized keg with clean water and force it out with CO2.
Then fill the keg from another keg by pushing the cider out with CO2,
running the beer into the "out" fitting so it enters the bottom of the keg
and doesn't splash and foam.  Then pressurize and shake.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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---