---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Homebrew Clubs (Mark Tumarkin)
  need math help (John_E_Schnupp)
  King and Barnes IPA (Rod Prather)
  re: mead yeast starters (Mark Tumarkin)
  Fermentation questions ("David M. Campbell")
  kegged mead ("Spies, Jay")
  AHA Y2K Problem ("Jeff Beinhaur")
  French Brew Pub ("John S. Thomas")
  Mead starters ("silent bob")
  sulfury lagers...the suggestions ("Marc Sedam")
  Sanitizing Beer Bottles (VQuante)
  Sanitation (Tom Clark)
  Yeast Autolysis (Jason.Gorman)
  Re: In defense of CACA (Jeff Renner)
  re:s Hops in Beer and Dutch (Badger Roullett)
  All-grain brewing ("Craig Wolfangel")
  Idophor in high bicarbonate water (Joy Hansen)
  A taste of Gypsum (Joy Hansen)
  Diacetyl - Correct Name, Structure or Formula (Aleman)
  body and mouthfeel ("Eric R. Tepe")
  draught question/Guinness head (BrewInfo)
  1999 Land of the Muddy Waters Homebrew Festival & Competition ("Timothy M. Dugan")
  a recipe ("Gradh O'Dunadaig")
  kegging question ("Dann Holmes")
  Eating Gyprock Walls ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  correctly corrected cleaning ("Dr. Pivo")
  Sucky water ("silent bob")
  Re: Bad water ("Sieben, Richard")
  Ginger beers ("Bridges, Scott")
  Bottle sanitation (Scott Northuis)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

2000 MCAB Qualifiers: Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99
(http://burp.org/SoFB99); Oregon Homebrew Festival 5/22/99
(http://www.mtsw.com/hotv/fest.html); Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99
(http://www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:10:27 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Homebrew Clubs

A little while ago (5 or 6 weeks?), I posted a request for responses on
what makes your Homebrew Club special. I was recently elected to be
Primary Fermenter of the Hogtown Brewers. Our club is reorganizing and I

am interested in ideas to make it as good as possible. I recieved a
number of excellant responses from the following folks (several of whom
are members of more than one club)

Chuck Bernard of Music City Brewers
CD Pritchard, sorry but I don't remember your club
Jim Brangan of Paumanok United Brewers (PUB), & Brewers East End Revival

Phil Regan of Tampa Bay BEERS, and  Dunedin Brewers Guild
Phil Wilcox of Prison City Brewers
Lee Menegoni of Brew Free or Die, and Boston Worts Processors
Mark Ohrstrom & Forrest Duddles who are trying to revive KLOB

I have been meaning to post a summary of the things they told me their
clubs are doing. Sorry for the delay but real-life has intervened,
anyhow I've finally gotten around to it. Some of the ideas were common
to several of the posts, some were very unique. A lot of them are common

sense, common practices (like many of the brewing practices we discuss
here on the HBD) but maybe it will help others to see them written down.

And some of them are really innovative and interesting. I would
certainly be
interested in hearing from others of you about what your clubs are doing

that aren't listed here. Maybe this will start a thread for a while on a

topic that hasn't been beaten to death. So anyhow, I have compiled the
following from the responses:

Regular Monthly Meetings on fixed day of month
Some things done at these meetings:
Style of the month
tasting and presentation
Tech topic
In-club competitions on pre-set annual calendar of styles
Brewer of the year contests tied to in-club competitions
Q&A session
Homebrew tasting
Have local brewmasters do presentations at meetings

Annual Dues
Monthly Newsletter some with advertising, on paper or electronic
    Newsletter articles  often offered to other clubs for their use
Yeast Bank
Discounts for club members
     at Local brewpubs
     at Local homebrew supply shops

Events
    Bicycle trips
    Pub crawls,
    Camping trips
    Golf & fishing tournaments
    Christmas Party
    Summer Picnic
    Keg Drill team at local Xmas Parade
    event on Natl Homebrew Day, recently coordinated with AHA Big Brew
    Mash-o-Rama annual event, brewers bring own equip to boil party

Fund Raisers
    Craft Brewers Festival
    Equipment Auctions
    50/50 raffles
    Pint Glasses with club logo
    T-shirts

Membership card & directory
BJCP study groups and exams
Members-only brewing at brewpub
Yeast experiment of pitching different yeasts into carboys of same wort
Club volume buys of supplies
Invite police to meeting to do periodic breathalizer tests as you
consume
beer

And let's not forget that the HBD is undoubtedly the best homebrew club
anywhere, even if it does exist mostly in CyBeer Space. As for my club,
the reorganization and re-energization (though that's probably not a
word) is going pretty well. At least we are off to a good start. We have

a web site that is pretty bad and hasn't been touched for years, that
will change shortly, but at present it's not even worth checking out.
But if you are interested, I'd love to have you look at our last two
newsletters and let me know what you think. They are at the following
URLs (eventually the newsletter will be part of our website) -

 http://web.nwe.ufl.edu/~dilger/etc/hb0399/
 http://web.nwe.ufl.edu/~dilger/etc/hb0499/

Mark Tumarkin
Primary Fermenter
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL





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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:45:05 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: need math help

This is a little off topic, but there are a bunch of quite
educated folks on this list, perhaps someone can help me
or point me in the right direction.

Are there any mathematics type people that can help me out?
I'd like to be able to experimentally determine the coefficient
of drag for my motorcycle.

I've done some searching on the web and found some formulas
that are fairly math (calculus) heavy.  But it's been too long
ago since my college calculus classes and the cobwebs are pretty
thick in that area of my brain.

Maybe I should relax, not worry and have a Lawnmower homebrew.
I wonder if there is a correlation between the coefficient of
drag for my motorcycle and the coefficient of drag for a
Lawnmower homebrew?  I know there's not much drag on the
beer, at least I never had a problem getting it down my throat.
Sounds like I should do more experiments with beer.

I guess it was beer related in a way :-)  TIA.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 06:24:47 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: King and Barnes IPA

I would like to hear a comment on King and Barnes IPA from a judges point of
view.   Off flavors and whether it is representative of style.  I kind of
like the beer but I doubt that it is representative of IPA  (AHA/BJCP style,
not that it matters to King & Barnes).  Some feel it is unbalanced (I
concur).    It has several quite garish characteristics.   I think it could
be representative of some of the off flavors that have been discussed
lately.   Any judges out there have recent notes on this beer?



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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 07:35:49 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: mead yeast starters

Bryan Gros asks:

"What is the best way to make a yeast starter for a mead?
Should I use honey and yeast nutrient to simulate the conditions
where I want they yeast to ferment?  Or should I use a malt starter to
provide extra nutrients/amino acids and whatever?"

Definately use a malt starter, honey does not contain enough nutrients
to provide the yeast a good start. For the same reason, you can add 1/2
to 3/4 cup light dme to your mead must to provide nutrients. This will
not affect the taste of your mead but will do a good job of providing
the necessary nutrients so that you will have a good, strong  ferment.
This will help avoid the stuck ferments that sometimes plague mead
makers. Mead is certainly a slower fermenter than beer, but there is no
need to have ferments that drag on forever. Also, if possible, ferment
your mead in a controlled fermenting fridge (at temps in the mid 60s).
You can have a clean, drinkable mead in 4-6 months. This isn't to say
that the mead won't benefit from aging - it should certainly continue to
improve. But you can avoid the situation where you have some nasty
tasting mead that you 'hope' will become drinkable with age.

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL



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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:49:30 -0400
From: "David M. Campbell" <David.Campbell at po-box.esu.edu>
Subject: Fermentation questions




> Let me start this posting by saying that I am an inexperienced homebrewer,
> and I feel like an idiot for some obvious mistakes I made with brewing my
> latest batch.  That being said, I am hoping for some advice.  Some quick
> background info:
> 
> I made a recipe consisting of 2 lbs. light malt extract, 2 lbs honey, and
> 2
> lbs. corn sugar.  I pitched "Munton's Gold" dry yeast at 60 degrees (I
> made
> a starter first) and put into my fermenting bucket.  After 4 days, I
> realized that the reason I did not see any activit was because my seal was
> loose around the airlock.  So, I think I missed the entire fermentation.
> I
> couldn't check it with a hydrometer because just as I was ready to record
> the starting gravity, I realized it was broken.  
> 
> So, after a taste, I figured it had fermented.  I left it in the bucket
> for
> 12 days, and then racked to a carboy over top 6 cans of frozen lemonade
> (warmed to room temp first).  I noticed a trub of yeast at the bottom of
> the
> bucket when I racked, furthering my feeling that it had indeed fermented.
> However, the trub was thinner and seemed a bit less in volume than what I
> remembered other recipes looking like.  Anyway, it has been in the carboy
> now for 7 days, and bubbling pretty steadily (about once every 3-4
> seconds).
> After purchasing a new hydrometer last night, I took a reading.  It read
> 1.022 at 65 degrees.  This seemed a bit high to me, and now I am wondering
> if I might have racked it before it finished fermenting.  
> 
> My question is...if I bottle once it stops bubbling, but the gravity
> reading
> is still high, will I be bottling a product that has not fermented
> completely?  Is 1.022 a high final gravity reading for this type of
> recipe?
> Or will it probably drop more with continued fermentation from the
> lemonade?
> Should I consider pitching fresh yeast if it doesn't drop anymore?  Would
> it
> "hurt" the beer if I did pitch fresh yeast when it was actually done?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> 


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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:33:32 -0400
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: kegged mead

All -

Regarding kegged mead - I'd just like to add one small data point...

I've had several meads in kegs for extended periods; in fact, my current
apple/raspberry mel has been sitting in its little stainless home for
upwards of a year and a half (it started life as more than a little harsh,
and needed to mellow out a bit).  One thing that I always do, other than
washing out and thoroughy sanitizing the kegs as much as possible before
long-term storage, is to hit the mead with a teaspoon or so of potassium
sorbate.  Assuming that your fermentation is *finished*, the p.s. should
keep any nasty stragglers from further fermenting your concotion.  I tend to
prefer medium to sweet meads, so it's doubly important for me.

I could be missing it, but I don't detect any off flavors from the p.s.
additions, and I never get any type of renewed fermentations if I use it.

Just a thought...

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD



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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:23:05 -0400
From: "Jeff Beinhaur" <beinhaur at email.msn.com>
Subject: AHA Y2K Problem

Seems that AOB has a Y2K problem. So for any of you AHA members that
receives a notice concerning paying your membership dues but you already
have paid it as I did. Blame that nasty old Y2K bug.

Jeff Beinhaur, Camp Hill, PA
Home of the Yellow Breeches Brewery





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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 07:32:01 -0700
From: "John S. Thomas" <jthomas at iinet.com>
Subject: French Brew Pub

Copy of message to Mark re French brewpub

Mark

Call Jessie Gislason at [33] 240 628 425.  He has a brewpub, called
Gislason, located in La Turballe.  He is an American Chef and a real nice
guy.  He also uses my equipment.  
Tell him I sent you.

John S. Thomas
Hobby Beverage Equipment
909-676-2337


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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 07:43:12 PDT
From: "silent bob" <holdenmcneil at hotmail.com>
Subject: Mead starters

Hello All!

Bryan Gros asked about what to use for startes for mead.  My 
suggestion, and the method I have successfully used is to make a 
starter with honey at a gravity close to, but slightly lower than the 
mead to be made, and add the same nutrients to the starter and in the 
same proportion as will be used in the full batch.  You don't want to 
grow yeast that have enzymes in full gear for maltose and other malt 
sugars, and the associated nutrients, and then throw them into a mead 
that has totally different sugars and nutrients available.  Good 
luck!!

Adam

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:16:18 -0400
From: "Marc Sedam" <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: sulfury lagers...the suggestions

I received a few replies about my overly sulfury lagers...to summarize:

1)  Change the yeast strain.  2278 is a notorious sulfur producer
2)  My idea of venting headspace often will help speed up the process.
3)  The high-temp diacetyl rest causes overly-sulfury notes.
4)  Relax...they'll dissipate with time.

Since I've already fermented, done the d-rest, and have only another 10 days
to get this beer ready to drink, I'm only left with #2 and perhaps a little
prayer to St. Arnold.  Thanks for the suggestions, next time I'll try some
of the other suggestions too.

Marc Sedam



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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:48:57 EDT
From: VQuante at aol.com
Subject: Sanitizing Beer Bottles

Richard S. Kuzara wrote:

> Sanitizing Beer Bottles
> ...
> Question, has anyone been successful
> sanitizing in the oven and what is wrong with my procedure or what is the
> suggested oven procedure?  Thanks.

Well, Richard,

I always sanitize my bottles in the oven, using temperatures of about 150 
Celsius (don't know in Fahrenheit) for 20 minutes. In the last time I didn't 
have the bottles breaking.

Two things to think about:

1. Avoid the bottles contacting each other - because:
   a. one bottle breaking can cause a chain reaction, and
   b. many bottles standing close together don't give enough
      place to expand under the heat

2. Leave about 2 or 3 ml water in every bottle - I don't know, why it
   helps, I only know, that it helps (where are the scientific geeks out
   there, to help me explain my experiences???)

Greetings,

Volker

Volker R. Quante
Brunnenbraeu Homebrewery

Brewing and working in Warsaw / Poland, but definitely a German Homebrewer

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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:06:00 -0400
From: Tom Clark <rtclark at eurekanet.com>
Subject: Sanitation

I have been making beer, wine and cider for some time now.  Recently , 
on batch number 24 of beer, I experienced my first known incident of 
bacterial infection (I think).  Fortunately, I had followed two of 
Charlie Papazian's suggestions.  One, never put your original specific 
gravity sample back in the main brew.  Either drink it or toss it. The 
other is to leave the sample in the test jar and let it set out on the 
counter in your brewery for a few days to see if anything grows in it.  
Well, this time something did in fact grow in it.  After only 48 hours 
or so I noticed an ugly glob of "stuff" in the top of the test jar. 
(please excuse my terminology if I'm getting over anyone's head) It 
smelled quite foul also (sour?).  This morning, I racked the beer to a 
carboy and the main batch of beer is fine so far.

This time I was lucky perhaps.  I had made a batch of dandelion 
wine the day before I made the beer and this may have been the 
source of the critters.  

These two suggestions are well worth heeding.  By leaving the test jar 
with the sample in it out on the counter, you get an indication of how 
"sanitary" your brewery really is.
And, don't ever put the sample back in the main brew.  It ain't worth 
the risk.

Since then I have used about a gallon of bleach in a rather fanatical 
cleaning and sanitizing frenzy.

Tom Clark


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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:36:00 -0400
From: Jason.Gorman at steelcase.com
Subject: Yeast Autolysis

A while back I posted this question on yeast autolysis and I received no
responses.  Apparently all you so called experts were to busy discussing the
latest technology advancements in clinitests, how 0.000023" gap spacing will
alter your conversion from 23 to 33 pts or the riveting  diacetyl thread.
Here is the question again.  If it is too difficult I can always contact the
true beer expert Charlie Papazian about the topic.  I already contacted Fred
Garvin and he said he was sick of carrying the everyone on his back and I was
on my own to figure it out.

Yes, I am an acquaintance of Eric Fouch and he has two daddies.

>I did some searching in the archives, but could not find the information I was
>looking for.  From what I have read, autolysis is basically the spilling of
>the yeast guts into the beer.  Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this
>basically yeast nutrient?  If you transfer to a secondary and add some DME,
>will you get renewed fermentation and rid yourself of the rubbery autolysis
>taste and smell?

PS:  Thanks in advance for your timely and accurate responses!

Jason Gorman
River Dog Brewery


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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 15:14:53 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: In defense of CACA

Paul Shick <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu> invents an acronym, Classic American
Cream Ale, CACA.  I agree that this is a great style, as are related
classic American ales (IPA, stock ale).   The origin and exact nature of
cream ale are obscure, but it's well worth brewing.  (There is an upcoming
article in BT on cream ale - no, I am not the author).

Thanks to Paul for encouraging further brewing of indigenous American
beers.  I hope he convinces many of you to try it.

I posted a recipe here a year ago or so based on New Glarus' Spotted Cow
Ale, which I think is a great modern CA, although it is called a farmhouse
ale by the brewer. I also have made a red cream ale (see archives) version
of this and called it an Irish-American red ale.  No actual evidence of
this having been brewed historically, but it's tasty and popular,
especially at St. Patrick's Day.

A few comments - (OPINION here!).  I like to keep the OG a little lower for
a party beer than Paul's 1.054 (especially with the attenuation he got - FG
1.010).   I think his 35 IBU balances this higher OG but again, I like to
keep it a little lower.  However, Paul's gravity and bitterness are more
"classic," i.e., pre-prohibition; my CA is more typical of later cream
ales, perhaps post WWII, but still far more full flavored than modern ones.
I also like to get the corn level over 20% because *corn is good*, and
definitely historic.

I'd suggest Wahl and Henius' _American Handy Book of Brewing_, 1902  for
those interested in more historic backround - thanks to Spencer for putting
this online at http://hubris.engin.umich.edu:8080/Wahl/

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:30:36 -0700
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: re:s Hops in Beer and Dutch

From: Tidmarsh Major <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: re: Hops in Beer and Dutch

>> The source is an unpublished 14th C manuscript held by the Reynolds
>> Historical Library at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, and the
>> subject of my recently completed dissertation.  I have excerpts

You lucky dog you!! those are hard find, and are very rare gems of great
note.  congrats on your research!

> I haven't done any research about when the distinction arose, so my
> dates are guesswork, but it seems to have arisen around the time the
> Dutch began importing beer to England, somewhere around the early 15th
> C, so it seems my definition of late (as in late Middle Ages) is
> similar to yours.  

A good book on the subject for anyone interested in the history of beer/ale
and culture of such brewers is 
Ale, Beer and Brewsters in England : Women's Work in a Changing World,
1300-1600 
by Judith M. Bennett.  She traces the rise of brewing from a woman's
perspective, and can get rather passionate about the subject.  But her data
is very sound.  its based on lists of fines levied on brewers, and various
records from the time.  there is even a mostly-recipe or two thrown in a
some of the records.  She also does an excellent job of tracing the
introduction of hops into England, and the resulting rise of Beer (ale with
hops) brewing, and the subsequent commercializing of the industry.  forcing
out the small scale brewer (mostly women).  its a great informational
resource, if a bit hard to read at times.

> I have an article at home on the words ale and beer
>in Germanic, and I'll be happy to dig up the reference if you're
> interested in historical linguistics.

Yes.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brander Roullett aka Badger
Homepage: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger
In the SCA: Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven

 "It had to be a linguistics professor who said that it's man's ability to
use language that makes him the dominant species on the planet. That  may
be. But I think there's one other thing that separates us from animals. We
aren't afraid of vacuum cleaners."       --Jeff Stilson



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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:09:21 PDT
From: "Craig Wolfangel" <cwolfangel at hotmail.com>
Subject: All-grain brewing

I am relatively new to brewing and have 4 extract batches under my 
belt with good success.  But I would like to start brewing all-grain 
batches and kegging them rather than bottling them.  I own Charlie 
Papazian's book "The New Complete Joy of Homebrewing" and, though I 
haven't finished reading the book yet, I was planning on that as my 
main source of infor for switching to all-grain.  My question to the 
collective is, I saw it mentioned a little while back that Papazian's 
direction were not good, so what are some good books or other sources 
of information to learn about all-grain brewing and kegging?  Private 
e-mail or list responses are fine.  Thanks in advance.

Craig Wolfangel
cwolfangel at hotmail.com



_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:09:30 +0000
From: Joy Hansen <happyhansen at scronline.com>
Subject: Idophor in high bicarbonate water

AJ wrote:

Joy Hansen mentions the precipitate which forms when iodophore is used
in bicarbonate waters. Actually it is not, I believe,  the bicarbonate
which causes the precipitate but the calcium (and pehaps magnesium)
which, with the bicarbonate comprise the "temporary hardness". I too
have reasonably bicarbonate water (alkalinity 80 - 100) with hardness a
bit over 100. When used as is, the precipitate forms. When run through a
home water softenter which substitutes sodium for Ca/Mg the precipitate
does not form. The softener does not change the bicarbonate level. I
seem to recall reading somewhere (quite possibly here) that iodophor is
acidified with phosphoric acid (this should be easy enough to verify and
if I get a few minutes spare I'll do that). If so, I suspect the
precipitate is calcium phosphate which is extremely insoluble in water.

OK AJ, I wonder where the yellow went?  And when did magnesium or
calcium sulfate or carbonates have a brick red color?  I don't have the
figures in front of me; however, the water hardness is about 150 and the
bicarbonate is near 200?  Really ucky water!

Ciao,                  Joy"T"Brew





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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:19:49 +0000
From: Joy Hansen <happyhansen at scronline.com>
Subject: A taste of Gypsum

Dr. Pivo wrote some dialog concerning the taste of calcium sulfate.  So,
here's another question along the same lines.

A recent brew session found me without adequate gypsum and the brew
store was 200 miles away.  I improvised and purchased quick setting
"plaster of paris" at about a buck a pound in the hobby section of the
local Wal Mart.  Any thoughts on the purity and/or trace elements I've
added to my brew?

Is this a ruinous brew? :)

Ciao,           Joy"T"Brew




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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:31:34 +0100
From: Aleman at brewmaster.demon.co.uk
Subject: Diacetyl - Correct Name, Structure or Formula

Hi Oh great collective ( :-> )

We have been throwing about Diacetyl with great relish in the last few
weeks, and eventually an idea crept out from the deepest warped area of
what passes for my brain. If the food industry uses Diacetyl as a
flavouring why can't we as brewers do so if we wish to increase the
levels in say an aggressively hopped Pilsner where they are lacking?

So I asked my live in chemist if they could get some analytical /
Pharmaceutical grade Diacetyl, to which she looked blank and said it
must be called something more modern. I tend to agree but cannot recall
even where it comes from or what it gets broken down to. So my question
is What is the 'modern' name or the chemical formulae (no cheesy ASCII
structure please) of Diacetyl
- -- 
Wassail ! 

Aleman (Schwarzbad Lager brauerei , Lancashire, UK )
Reply to Aleman at brewmaster dot demon dot co dot uk 


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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:30:49 -0400
From: "Eric R. Tepe" <erictepe at fuse.net>
Subject: body and mouthfeel

I was wondering if the collective could be of some assistance. I would
like to add more body to my beers.  Many of my all grain beers have
suffered from lack of body. I usually do an infusion mash at 155F for
all of my ales ( I really dont have the facilities to do lagers).  While
they taste good (some of my beers have scored as high as 40) and have a
nice head, the constant knock is on the body and mouthfeel.  In a search
for answers at hbd.org I performed searches on dextrins and found them
to contribute to mouthfeel and body, but were secondary to MMW protein. 
I found a post by AlK that said a protein rest at 138F would break the
HMW proteins to MMW proteins.  I also found that carapils and dextrin
malts can help, but in to high a percentage can make the beer cloying or
worty. Is a rest at 138F the answer or am I missing something?

Thanks in advance to all that respond.
Eric Tepe


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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:41:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com>
Subject: draught question/Guinness head

Felix writes:
[snip]
>The distance for the hoses will be about 8',
>which is also the rise of the beer.  Is this 
>a problem?  How about the regulator?  I think 
>that this is something I will need to adjust, 
>from time to time.  Should I be keeping the CO2 
>tank and regulator in the bar?  Any thoughts?

8' should not be a problem from the perspective of
the pressure drops.  If you find that 8' of 3/16" ID
hose is too much pressure drop (too slow a flow)
for your chosen level of carbonation (i.e. CO2 pressure),
then you can move to 1/4" ID hose, but recheck the
numbers (Dave Miller's talk in the Milwaukee
AHA Conference is the best source of this info
although there have been a few articles in BT and
Zymurgy since then) again and see if you don't need
9' or 10' of the 1/4" ID hose to balance the pressure.
Don't forget to compensate for the rise... see the
BT technical communication on this... I believe it
was the first, second or third issue... I'm sure
it's on their website.

You should only have to adjust the regulator if you
want a different carbonation level on the beer.
After you hook up your system, check all the fittings
for leaks... a system that is always pressurised
can result in you losing all your CO2 to leaks.
You can buy these leak-check solutions, but I just
use a diluted dishwashing soap (the foamy stuff)
solution.

Another thing you may want to consider is that your
beer will be unrefrigerated in the lines.  This
can be solved by putting them in a jacket and then
running extra hoses through the jacket that carry
refrigerated coolant.  Many draught towers even
have fittings for running coolant.  Cooling the
beer in the lines means less waste because you
can drink the stuff in the lines.

Finally, you should be prepared to *clean* and
sanitise the lines periodically.  I chose to not
put my faucets on the outside of my cooler.  Despite
the fact that my hoses and faucets are refrigerated,
I still get mould growth inside the faucet!  This
will only be faster in an unrefrigerated faucet.
You may find yourself shutting off the system and
soaking the faucets in BLC (beer line cleaner)
a lot more often that you would like.

***

Adam writes:
>I would like to comment on the recent thread about nitrogen dispense. 
> I am going out on a limb and diputing Al K's post (I say out on a 
>limb because I have a great deal of respect for his knowledge, having 
>read many of his posts).

It's not that thin a limb... nobody's perfect...

I'd also like to point out that I'm not ignoring your post Sparrow...
I just don't know whether a Guinness keg has two long dip tubes or not.

>  Even though the swan neck of a beer engine 
>system quickly becomes immersed in the ale being dispensed, turbulence 
>mixes in alot of air.  Because of the low amount of CO2 in the beer, 
>most of the gas in the bubbles is air.

I'm no so sure.  My beer engine is in one of 900 boxes right now, so
I can't test this theory.  One way to test it would be to gently pour
an inch of bottled beer into a glass, submerge the sparkler and then
start pumping.  I'll bet that the head forms just as it would have
if you started with an empty glass.  I'm quite certain that the gas
in handpumped beer bubbles is CO2... I suspect they are small because
of the sparkler, not because of any nitrogen influence.  I'm *pretty*
sure that Guinness head is mostly CO2 also, but it's not based upon
any science (that should make some people happy and others angry, eh?)
other than basic laws of physics and gasses, filtered through my
intuition.

>Since the gas in the bubbles 
>is air, and the gas outside of the bubbles is air, very little 
>diffusion occurs through the walls of the bubbles.  This does two 
>things:  First, the smaller a bubble, the greater the surface tension 

Is that right?  Why would that be?

>of that bubble, so if a small bubble is next to a large one, the small 
>one tends to diffuse into the larger and so on and so on.  Since 
>nitrogen diffuses slower than CO2, this coalescence occurs more 
>slowly.  

I can't see why this would be so... what drives the gas?  The pressure
in each bubble should be equal... the walls of the bubble are stretchy
and if the pressure inside both bubbles was not exactly 1 atmosphere,
they would either be shrinking or growing.  Again, from my observation
of soap bubbles, they seem to grow because the wall *between* two
bubbles snaps and then the new single bubble shares both the contents
and the wall material of both "parent" bubbles.  Hmmm... beer begins
with the budding of yeast cells and ends with the merging of beer
bubbles...

>Second, since their is very little concentration gradient 
>between the gas in the bubbles and the atmosphere, the gas in the 
>bubbles does not tend to diffuse out to the atomoshere  (this process 
>is very rapid with CO2 which is less than .5% of the atomoshere but 
>100% of the bubble gas in a conventionally carbonated beer).

Perhaps, but diffusion is not only dependent on partial pressure
gradients, but also on how easily the gas passes through the membrane
(in this case, the beer of the bubble wall).  Again, recall that the
pressure inside and outside the bubbles is equal (no change in bubble
size).  That leaves diffusion through beer as the only driving force.
While I agree that there would be a much greater concentration gradient
across the bubble wall if the bubble was filled with CO2 than if
it were filled with nitrogen, but the question is, how much of the
bubble is filled with nitrogen?

>The same 
>principals apply to beers dispensed with nitrogen and CO2 mixtures, 
>except that the nitrogen is dissolved in the beer and is knocked out 
>of solution when it passes through the pinholes in the "guiness tap". 

But how much nitrogen actually dissolves in the beer?  Very little.
I don't have any books (even in those 900 boxes) that give the
relative solubilities of CO2 and N2... could someone post them?
I do know, however that they are at least an order of magnitude apart.
Then again, I also don't know how much is needed to make a dramatic
difference in bubble longevity... maybe a fraction of a volume is
enough?  I contend that it's CO2 that gets knocked out by the pinholes.

If you haven't noticed, I'm not saying that I'm clearly right here...
I'm just pointing out some things that *lead* me to believe that the
contents of Guinness and handpumped ale bubbles are mostly CO2.  In
other words, I'm just being the devil's advocate in this discussion.

Incidentally, there is some reasonably easy test for what's in the
bubbles... I know there is a relatively easy test for what's in the
headspace of a bottle or can... Zahm and Nagel makes a tester for this
and I believe that it works by bubbling the gas through a liquid
and then doing something with that liquid (probably just a test for
oxygen).  I know George Fix has done this test... perhaps he could
offer some insight?

Al.

Al Korzonas, Lockport, IL
korz at brewinfo.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:28:32 -0500
From: "Timothy M. Dugan" <tdugan at netins.net>
Subject: 1999 Land of the Muddy Waters Homebrew Festival & Competition

1999 Land of the Muddy Waters Homebrew Festival & Competition

Imagine this: you have been brewing five-gallon batches of beer at home for
a few years. You have made countless mistakes and attempted to brew many
different styles of beer to improve your brewing skills. Then one day you
enter a competition and, much to your surprise, you win. Then you name your
creation and help brew 250 gallons for the drinking public to quaff. This is
your chance!

The MUGZ Homebrew club is proud to present The Land of the Muddy Waters
Homebrew Competition, the fifth year for the premiere homebrewing event of
the Quad Cities. The competition is an AHA-sanctioned homebrew competition,
and entries in the 24 AHA recognized beer styles will be judged (no mead,
cider or sake). If your beer is chosen as best of show, you will be given
the opportunity to brew your beer at the Blue Cat Brew Pub
(http://www.bluecatbrewpub.com) with head-brewer Dan Clevand.

Judging for the competition will be held on May 15, but entries for the
competition must arrive no later than 5 p.m. on May 12, 1999 at:

Koski Home Brew Fixen's
1415 5th Ave.
Moline, IL 61265

The competition details and entry forms can be found on the MUGZ web page
at:.

http://www.netins.net/showcase/tdugan/mugz/

Or contact tdugan at netins.net.  If noting else you can use the standard AHA
entry and bottle forms.

We could still use some more judges for the event. If you are interested in
judging, please contact MUGZ at the sources above. We hope to get the
judging started at about 11 a.m. on the 15th. Dinner will be provided to the
judges after the best of show has been decided.






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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:19:56 PDT
From: "Gradh O'Dunadaig" <odunadaig at hotmail.com>
Subject: a recipe 

hi kids,
just thought i'd post this to break up all the scientific posts. 
everyone seemed to love it, so i guess i can share. it is an extract, 
so apologies to all the hardcore all-grainers.

Rubber Biscuit Ale

for 5 gallons...
6# Pale LME
2# Belgian Biscuit Malt
8 oz Caravienne

2 oz Columbus(16.9%) for 90 min
1 oz Tettnanger(4.6)      30 min
1 oz Saaz(3.5)           30 min
0.5 oz Tett              10 min steep
0.5 oz Saaz              10 min steep
0.5 oz Tett              Dry hopped
0.5 oz Saaz              Dry hopped

Wyeast #1214

Steep grains 30 min at 150, remove and add LME, bring to a boil and 
begin hop sequence. Cool and pitch yeast.
Primary for 5 days at 65 degrees, moved to secondary and dry hopped.
Secondary for 9 days at 65.
Primed with 1 3/8 cup x-lite DME.
OG=1.043
FG=1.010

On my second batch of this brew, i used Hallertau Hersbrucker for 
bittering, substituting 13 oz at 2.6% for 2 oz of columbus at 16.9%, 
and left out the caravienne. I'll be bottling it tomorrow.

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 02:47:15 -0400
From: "Dann Holmes" <dholmes3 at virtu.sar.usf.edu>
Subject: kegging question

I was wondering if it was possible to keg and force carbonate less liquid
than the keg is able to hold..  i want to keg and force carbonate 3 gallons
of cider, and i only have access to a 5 gallon keg.. can i do that, or will
it hurt the keg, or not carbonate, or something?  Thanks much
- --Dann



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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:45:57 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Eating Gyprock Walls

It has been raining here in Sydney for far too long and cabin fever is
setting in. Dr Pivo's suggestion to try a bit of calcium sulphate in the
brew took my fancy. Very carefully I cut out a section of the kitchen wall,
scraped off the paint and ground the remaining chunk straight into my latest
dark wheat beer. The result was awful!!
When my wife got home and found what I had done, the result was even more
awful.
Dr Pivo, What sort of a ridiculous experiment is this?



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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:07:38 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: correctly corrected cleaning

Both David Whitman, and AJ DeLange noticed and corrected my 1)
missconception, and 2) jumbled terminology, and 3) another jumbled
terminolgy

1) The first, decribing the inorganics of beer stone as carbonate
instead of oxalate, is simply something someone said to me once upon a
time, that I never bothered to think about again. It would be reasonable
to think of them as oxalates, just as they can be components of more
"painfull" stones (like ones lodged on the way out of your kidneys or
gall bladder)  that have precipitated over time. 

The "non-foaming with acid" rationalle that Dave uses to refute that it
could be a carbonate, makes good sense.

2) That one divides the organics and inorganics of residue into "beer
stone" and "gunk" in English is news to me.  I thought beer stone was a
collective term, but I didn't learn these concepts in English, so I
certainly would trust a habitual English speaker before I'd trust my
jumbled syntax, and shoddy attempts at translating.

3) On the calling Nitric acid for a "reducing acid", I think this falls
under the category of what I've read called here as a "brain fart". 
Nitric acid is most definately an oxidising acid, and it is this rapid
oxidation of the stainless surface that is what "pickleing" is all
about.

Probably the most salient comment was...

> Dr. Pivo has his phenomenology correct, but his chemistry leaves something
> to be desired:

I'd say my chemistry leaves a HUGE AMMOUNT to be desired.... sort of
like an old, dark attic that hasn't been cleaned or even looked  at for
awhile..... sometimes you reach in and pull out a rifle by the barrel,
and it turns out to be a broom handle.

Back to the practical, the acid/caustic rinse cycles then, put
sanitization and beer stone/gunk removal hand in hand (better?).


I know this computer has a "spell checker".... wonder where I can find
one with a "dumb checker".

Dr. Pivo


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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 04:52:10 PDT
From: "silent bob" <holdenmcneil at hotmail.com>
Subject: Sucky water

Hello all!!

Alan has sucky water.  I sympathise.  Alan, you didn't say if you had 
city or well water.  If it is a well, I would have it tested for 
safety, which should have been a contingency on your purchase of the 
house.  Anyway, after that, you have many options.  Distillation is 
an expensive and impractical one.  You can get a whole house 
deionizer or Reverse Osmosis unit.  These would go downstream from a 
settling tank that would hopefully remove most of your iron.  Or, if 
the water is otherwise safe, just get the settling tank.  Softened 
water is not a good choice for brewing as the softener exchanges 
sodim ions for other ions in the water, leading to unacceptably high 
sodium.  Get that water tested, and then search the web or check with 
a local water treatment company.  Good luck!!

Adam

_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 07:37:33 -0500
From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at aerial1.com>
Subject: Re: Bad water

Alan McKay indicates rusty water:

I don't think your water softener will stop rust, you will need to get a
filter for that.  You can also add some rust removing salt to your brine
tank in case you just got a 'slug' of rust from your water source (don't
know if you are on city water or personal well).  I have experienced rust on
occasion when there was new construction in the area and the city would
attach new mains.  One time it was so bad that the water turned orange, and
orange so deep that you couldn't even see the bottom of the toilet through
the water!  I had to run faucets until it ran clear, had to drain the hot
water tank and flush the water softener, with rust salt twice.

Finally, the water softener motor valve may not be working.  This has
happened twice with my softener, the shear pin usually breaks and results in
a $50 service call.  I was told the only way to prevent that is to not use a
large water using item, like the toilet, when the motor valve is in
operation.  Since I set the softener to cycle at night that is not usually a
problem, but folks do get up in the middle of the night sometimes to pee,
especially after a few homebrews......Hope this helped.

Rich Sieben

Brew forth and swill no more.


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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:51:23 -0400
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: Ginger beers


Spencer writes:

>The results were very refreshing.  The second batch was better and did not
>last 5 weeks from the brew date!  In the first batch, I made the mistake of
>getting some of the white part of the lemon peel and that gave a bitter
>taste. 
>
>I would like to know others experience with Ginger Beers.
>
>Spencer Tomb

Two words:  Love 'em.  

I also like a nice light beer with a crisp ginger finish.  I normally peel
and grate (or slice thin) about 4 oz of fresh ginger.  Then, I add 1/2 about
5-10 min from the end of the boil, and the remainder after knock-out.  This
gives a noticeable, but not overpowering ginger flavor.  If you're not sure
you like ginger, you might want to start with a little less then adjust to
your taste.  

By the way, I also added ginger to my last batch of cider last fall.  IMHO
it really compliments the tartness of the cider.

Scott
Brewing in Columbia, SC






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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 99 08:15:500 -0600
From: Scott Northuis <scottn at sysref.com>
Subject: Bottle sanitation

Brewing type peoples....

I have noticed the recent thread about sanitizing bottles in the oven.  I 
just wanted to add a little tidbit of what I do.  I do not use the oven, but 
instead the dishwasher...and no, not my wife.  I try to rinse my bottles out 
when I empty them to get the crud out, and leave in a box till bottling 
time.  Once it's time to do the nasty, bottling that is, I load up the lower 
shelf of my dishwasher with about 30 bottles and run the dishwasher without 
detergent.  This works well on the dishwashers with a good heat dry cycle.  
I empty out the dishwasher and add the remaining bottles and run those 
through a cycle.  All in all, it takes about an hour to do both batches.  
While it's washing, I'm sanitizing my bottling equipment, so I really do not 
add too much time to my bottling day...

This seems to work fine, cause I haven't had a contaminated bottle 
yet...plus I never break a bottle.
Just my experience folks....

Norty
Champlin, MN




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---