---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Cutting sankes/legality/dilution/Spud beer ("Stephen Alexander")
  Just A Short Summary ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  storing sterile buffer solution (David Whitman)
  Return of the killer pellicle (Nathan Kanous)
  Piwo is Polish ("Jim Kingsberg")
  Gravity Readings?? (larson.jt)
  prague (kathy/jim)
  Re: Cleaners for stainless steel? (mark)
  The all knowing Mr. Burley (MAB)
  Vienna beer places ("Mercer, David")
  Getting honey flavor (Lostboy676)
  fwh formula? (jim williams)
  Re: Competition results (Matthew Arnold)
  Re: Hello again, decoction results, lager steps and IBU's (mark)
  Buffer Stability, Uric Acid Brews, Secret Squirrel (Dave Burley)
  Competition results ("Jim B Verlinde")
  Bronze or Brass? (Ed Choromanski)
  Keg cleaning (LaBorde, Ronald)
  PinYin and Pi Jiu ("Dr. Pivo")
  Domestic champaigne bottles (zemo)
  fermentation under pressure ("Sandlin, Jonathan Mark - BUS")
  Open fermenters, here kitty, kitty. (Rod Prather)
  Sterilizing bottles (Allen W Senear)
  Observations on Idophor (Joy Hansen)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

2000 MCAB Qualifiers: Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99
(http://burp.org/SoFB99); Oregon Homebrew Festival 5/22/99
(http://www.mtsw.com/hotv/fest.html); Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99
(http://www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 04:41:42 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Cutting sankes/legality/dilution/Spud beer

Cutting Sanke tops with a Dremel !! Ron LaBorde either has access to the
thinnest  Sanke's or the most powerful Dremel I've ever heard of.
==
Homebrew legality:  Checked the Ohio revised code online and tho' there are
volumes of regulation about beer production for sale, there appears to be
nothing on homebrewing.  I believe the list was (ahem) misleading as stated.
Of course we all know that homebrewing organizations are illegal in
Colorado - right ?
==
When best to dilute beer and how?!:  Yeast drive the pH of beer to a more or
less fixed value by creating various organic acids.  Adding water containing
buffers can upset this. You probably should add this early in the
fermentation so the yeast can set the pH or else the water should be RO or
distilled or preacidified  (to overcome the buffering).  The big brewers
typically brew at relatively high gravity ~15-16P and dilute very late. Of
course they have a high degree of control over the water and pH and other
factors.
==
Spud beer.

Because the structure of the starch granules of potatoes differs from cereal
granules (the secondary starch structure differs too) potato starch goes
through an extremely high peak viscosity (about 3X higher than for corn
starch!) during gelatinization (58C-66C). Then viscosity then drops quite
sharply. During the peak viscosity period scorching is quite likely - among
other problems.  If this hot starch paste (potato or other) is allowed to
gel and cool it is likely to retrograde (the potato amylose crystallizes and
becomes inaccessible.    Preventative measures include mechanical mixing,
acidification of the starch paste, and probably the easiest - add the
adjunct mash to the main mash w/o cooling.

 -S




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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:26:33 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Just A Short Summary

Dr Pivo, Here is where it seems we've got to:
    Dave Burley is hankering for your title. As he points out, with all his
qualifications he should be seen as the mother of all Doctors!
    So you want to organize a diving trip for a few HBD contributors. I
guess there are no points for guessing which ones?
    You liked the beer at Picton. I did too but the Sail and Anchor in
Fremantle W.A. is more than worth a visit.
    You have not seen cow flops on the bar before? Had you endured the night
you could have tried them for breakfast!
    You don't believe a cat can achieve 15000 r.p.m. Are you sure you have
not been experimenting with Swedish cats? They are renown for letting go
early.
    Having made fun of all this, why is it my dark wheat beer really does
taste like the cat has done something in it?
    No doubt there is a scientific reason for all of this. No doubt you will
have an answer.

    Cheers Phil Yates.

    P.S. You still haven't told me how to change my Transmission Title.



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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 07:57:19 -0500
From: David Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com>
Subject: storing sterile buffer solution

Scott Murman asks:

>Since I store my yeast in 2 dram
>vials, adding the weight of phosphate to each vial isn't practical.  I
>can either store a larger volume of solution and fill the vials
>individually, or I can process a whole load of vials at once.  I'd
>prefer the former.  How much risk for contamination is there when
>storing plain 2% pH 4 buffer solution (sterilized) for several months?

Scott, if you can wait about 2 weeks, I can give you a reasonably informed
answer.  May 17 is my 6 month target on the yeast storage experiment; I'll
be doing the final workup on all the samples, which includes an evaluation
of the extent of bacterial contamination after multiple openings and
samplings of the vials.  While I work carefully, my work area is far from
sterile or draft free and they've had PLENTY of opportunities to pick up an
infection if that is a problem.  

I ordered up a pile of LDMA plates last week from Brewing Sciences to check
all the vials for contamination, and I'll be able to tell you whether the
phosphate buffer is any more susceptable to contamination than straight
water or saline.

That said, does it really save work to store the solution ahead of time,
since you need to sterilize your vials anyway?  I don't weigh the phosphate
for each vial.  What I do is mix up a batch of buffer just large enough to
fill the vials I'll be using, pipette 2 ml aliquots into each vial, loosely
cap, then autoclave.  


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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:18:05 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Return of the killer pellicle

Hi Everybody.  A few (many?) weeks ago, someone inquired as to the problems
of losing a pellicle on a pLambic after it was moved and what to do.  As I
recall, both Jim Liddil and I mentioned we were moving and couldn't do a
thing about it so we'd at least see what happens.  This is not to say that
I know anything about brewing pLambic that Jim didn't write, just that here
are my observations.

I mentioned that I thought I could add fermentables to get the pellicle to
rise again.  After moving and leaving the pLambic alone for a month,
nothing happened.  I then added some additional fermentables (a little corn
sugar...sorry for the lack of authenticity, but most everything is still in
boxes).  I added a cup or so of corn sugar and stirred the beast up.  Last
Wednesday, for some reason, I decided to look and low and behold, I have a
new pellicle.

So, adding fermentables "re-suspended" or re-formed the pellicle...nothing
to be said for the quality of this brew for a long time.

Hope this helps.

nathan in madison, wi




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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 08:39:58 -0500
From: "Jim Kingsberg" <jdkingsb at hewitt.com>
Subject: Piwo is Polish

Actually, here in Chicago, rumored to have the largest Polish population
outside of Warsaw, there are many, many bars along Archer Ave on the sout'
west side that have signs that read "Zimne Piwo".  This, I have been told,
translates to "Cold Beer".    Im betting that w's sound like v's in Polish
and other slavic languages.  Along the same lines, the Polish toast, (and I
havent a clue how to spell this), "nastrovya", is extremely similar to the
Russian toast, "nasdrovya" (the point being that they arent quite spelled
the same, nor pronounced the same though people who are not fluent wouldnt
know the difference...).  And by the way, I beleive the toasts translate to
"to your health."

Prost!!

Jim Kingsberg
chief bottle washer/brewer Fugowee Brewery
Evanston, IL





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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:34:04 -0400
From: larson.jt at pg.com
Subject: Gravity Readings??

After 5 years and countless brews, I have successfully avoided EVER taking
one gravity reading.  I just never saw the purpose.  However, I recently
made the switch to all-grain and in an effort to replicate various recipes,
I thought I should try.  A couple of questions:  When should I take the
reading?  Some of the books say to take a reading just prior to pitching;
if that's true, then how would I correct a low gravity?  I presume I add
some water to a high reading.  TIA for any help.

todd

Larson.JT at pg.com




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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:50:00 -0400
From: kathy/jim <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: prague

Alan McKay writes of Prague.  Wife Kathy and I spent a delightful day
there in 1991, ending up late evening in the famous 6 century old brew
pub "U Flecka".  It was a pleasant summer evening and the pub had rooms
of singing (German?) visitors, a bier garten with an 11 piece brass
band, and a sweetish, dark sessions beer that I've tried (without
success) to brew, dumplings and a stringy meat as the only menu, and I
commend the whole experience, including the castle on the hill, but
especially U Flecka (see M. Jackson's_______awwaackkk...my copy's
disappeared).   

Somebody please send me a clone for that U Flecka beer!!!

cheers,  jim booth, lansing, mi



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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 16:00:58 +0200
From: mark <shrike.cars at accesinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Cleaners for stainless steel?

Jow Gibben wrote:

>Does anyone know what the brewing industry uses to clean stainless
steel
>fermenters?  I'm looking for a readily available caustic that won't
leave
>a residue and can be used to clean areas that are inacessible to
scrubbing.


Joe,

You might want to try Five Star Products (I know that they sold to
homebrewers in the past). They produce a line of sanitizers/cleaners
that are not as harmful to humans as Caustic Soda, and are supposed
to work very well (according to their claims).

Here's the internet address & telephone #:

http://www.fivestaraf.com

800 782-7019

You might want to be careful with "Caustic Soda". It is very dangerous
to
handle, and does wonders (bad ones at that) for your septic system /
environment... It also works best when used with very warm to hot
water... When I worked for a brewery in West Virginia we used
to get the caustic in 55gallon plastic drums..... I don't know that
it is available in smaller quantities, although I would assume that it
is.

Here is also a list of brewing chemical manufacturers for the brewing
industry:

DiverseyLever Dubois
255 E. 5th St., Suite 1200
Cincinnati, OH 45202-4799
USA
Tel: 800 233-1000 / (513) 762-6804
Fax: (513) 762-6601


Five Star Products & Services, LLC.
no address available
Tel: 800 782-7019
Fax: n/a


Logic, Inc.
Greenville, NC
USA
Tel: 252-916-4320
Fax: n/a


National Chemicals, Inc.
PO Box 32
105 Liberty St.
Winona, MN 55987
USA
Tel: 800 533-0027 / (507) 454-5640
Fax: (507) 454-5641


Texo Corporation
2801 Highland Ave.
Cincinnati, OH 45212
USA
Tel: 800 998-8396 / (513) 731-3400
Fax: (513) 731-8113

Hope that helps...

Prost!
Mark






Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:30:40 -0400
From: MAB <mabrooks at erols.com>
Subject: The all knowing Mr. Burley

In HBD 3025 Mr. Burley Writes:

>Why is anyone talking about hydroxyapatite?

Because it was, in fact, brought up and openly discussed, is that ok
with you, or should we limit the conversation on the HBD to topics
approved by you?

>Matt Brooks accuses me of discussing this. I never mentioned the word.
It has little relevance in brewing >as far as I know.

My appologies to you Mr. Burley, as I said "I believe" Al K and Dave B.
were discussing hydroxyapatite.  I did  not  say "I am sure", also - I
meant to say you were discussing "Calcium Phosphate" not
Hydroxyapatite.  Hence I never meant to "ACCUSE" you of anything (taking
things a little personally aren't we?).

>The main reaction in brewing is due to the fact that calcium phosphate
is incredibly insoluble.

I dont belive I am familiar with this Calcium Phosphate you keep
discussing, could it be that you are refering to Tricalcium phosphate
Ca3(PO4)2 because that is in fact very insoluble, if you have available
"FREE PO4's" floating around in solution to react with Ca.  The fact is
at pHs we are concerned with in brewing there just aren't a whole lot of
"free" PO4's to react with, there are some but just not that many, and
the lower the pH the less there are.  The dissociation constant (pKa)
for HPO4 is 12.3, yes 12.3!!,  I dont think you will be liberating a
whole lot of "free" PO4 at pHs we will find in a mash.  On the other
hand if we look at the pKa for H2PO4, which is 7.2 this would be more
likely to dissociate and give up a hydrogen at pHs we use for brewing.
This dissociates into HPO4 wich is not "free" PO4, but it will still
react with Ca to form a very soluable complex known as Calcium hydrogen
phosphate -  CaHPO4 (could this be the calcium phosphate you are
refering to?)  The pK for CaHPO4 is only 6.66 which makes it fairly
soluable in solution.

>Much more so than either calcium sulfate or calcium carbonate. It is so
insoluble at brewing pHs that the >calcium salts added can be treated as
an acid source due to the release of protons from the partially
>protonated phosphates when calcium phosphate precipitates.

release of protons from the partially protonated phosphates you
say...... you mean the ones with a pKa of 12.3 !!!

Could you extrapolate on this for us less knowing then you...how about
some chemical equations showing how it works?   I have no doubts that
there are hydrogens liberated by certain reactions of Ca and phosphate
(perhaps this is really from H2PO4 releasing one of its hydrogens,
resulting in HPO4 which then reacts with Ca to form CaHPO4. It is
interesting to note that the pK for CaHPO4 = 6.6 is less then for CaCO3
= 8.3, so in fact CaCO3 would begin to precipitate first in this
scenario, which would lower the pH also.

>The acid generated by this reaction is buffered by the bicarbonate
reaction which is many orders
>of magnitude different from the solubility constant of calcium
phosphate. Calcium phosphate
>precipitation is the dominant driving force in wort pH.

Please show us how this work Mr. Burley, as I am interested in
understanding this (as some others are I'm sure).  How about the
equations that prove this?  It shouldn't be that hard to jot down a few
and post them up to the HBD?  Your not just requoting this from some
book are you ??????

Hopefully your response will take into account the above stated
limitations for Tricalcium phosphate formation (specifically the
availability of PO4 ions) and the acid dissociation constants for H2PO4
and HPO4.

Matt B.
Northern Va.



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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 07:27:58 -0700
From: "Mercer, David" <dmercer at path.org>
Subject: Vienna beer places

Braam asked about places to drink beer in Vienna:

I get to Vienna 5 or 6 times a year and have only begun to scratch the
surface of the beer world there. About three years ago, before I went there
the first time, I asked a friend of mine for suggestions and he sent me the
following:

"There is a pub near the city-center, Schwimmende Pyramide, at
Seilerstaette 3A, not far from Stephansplatz.  It has a great
selection of 70 beers, including quite a lot of different Austrian
brews, of course.  In a similar vein, Beethoven's Bierteufl, in the
III Bezirk, corner of Ungargasse and Beatrixgasse, is mentioned in
Keith Waclena's Austrian Beer Page, and is also quite worthwhile;
take the U3 subway line to Landstrasse, and walk one block south
on Invaliden Strasse to Ungargasse; turn left and walk one block to
Beatrixgasse.  Alternatively, the O Strassenbahn will pick you up at
Landstrasse and drop you off by the pub and its big selection of brews.
If you like the Goesser beers, the Goesser Bierklinik is right downtown
by the Graben, not far from the Stephansdom if I remember correctly.

Vienna's brewpubs are a varied lot, and are scattered about town,
but are generally quite accessible by public transport.  A personal
favorite is Medl Braeu in Penzing (XIV Bezirk), Linzerstrasse 275;
I can't remember which Strassenbahn line runs down that street, but it
drops you off very close to the pub.  Beers are quite good, and the
place is something of a revivalist brewery, offering old-fashioned
lagers.  Other pubs include:

Fischer Braeu, Billrothstrasse 17 in XIX Bezirk; the 38 Strassenbahn will
drop you off nearby; I thought the Fischer beer was rather soft and
sweet, but they also have Ayinger beers on tap.

Brauhaus Nussdorf, also in XIX, at 1 Freihof Gasse - take U4 or U5 to
Heiligenstadt (end of line), transfer to the S-Bahn up to Nussdorf,
then walk north on Heilegenstaedter Strasse to Freihof Gasse.  I liked
this one, and the beers are top-fermented and just a bit eccentric.
You can also buy 'em to go.

Wieden Braeu, IV Bezirk, Waaggasse 5; don't know much about this one.

Siebensternbraeu, VII Bezirk, Siebensterngasse 19, take U2 or U3 to
the Volkstheater subway station.  Plutzer Braeu is also in the VII
Bezirk, Schrankgasse 2; I don't know much about it, though.

Salm Braeu, III Bezirk, Rennweg 8, is sort of a showpiece kind of place,
as Salm also builds and installs brewing equipment.  They brew a decent
Weissbier and also bottom-fermented Maerzen and Pils."

Of the places recommended by my friend, I can HIGHLY recommend the
Siebensternbrau brew pub. Excellent beers - another friend of mine who knows
a lot about Austrian (and other) beer thinks thery are brewing the best
beers in Vienna. Who am I to disagree? Also the Nussdorf brewpub is
excellent, has great atmosphere and, in particular, great weizens. 

Not on the list above, but not to be missed: On a warm spring evening
drinking fresh Budvar and eating Austrian food in the Schweizerhaus beer
garden in the Prater is sublime (the Prater is a big amusement park near the
city center - it has a huge ferris wheel made famous in the film The Third
Man). When you get to the park, just ask directions to the Schweizerhaus.
The temptation is just to wash everything down with Budvar, which is served
with assembly line efficiency, but look at their bottled beer list. It is
extensive, with some real gems. I'm getting thirsty just thinking about it,
but it will be more than a month before I get back there.

Have fun.

Dave in Seattle. 




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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:35:44 EDT
From: Lostboy676 at aol.com
Subject: Getting honey flavor

 Someone recently asked about getting more honey flavor from their beer. I 
was wondering, couldnt you just add some paturized honey at kegging time and 
force carbonate? I'm just curious.
 Dave


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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 06:42:00 -0800
From: jim williams <jim&amy at macol.net>
Subject: fwh formula?

does a formula exist that figures ibu of first wort hopping technique?
thanks, jim.



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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:28:11 GMT
From: marnold at ez-net.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Re: Competition results

On Mon, 10 May 1999 00:23:27 -0400, you wrote:

>Why don't they take it one step further and post:
>
>1) the scores that each beer got
>
>2) how many beers were entered into each category

My homebrew club, the Green Bay Rackers, always posts all the beers entered
along with their scores from our Titletown Open (which, coincidentally, is this
Saturday). Check out http://www.rackers.org/openscores98.shtml to see how we
did it.

I'm entering my Tripel, Barleywine, and possibly my Bitter in this year's
competition. If I don't win something I'm going to pout like my two-year-old.
:) If anyone is interested in entering, snag our entry forms from
http://www.rackers.org/contest.pdf You'll need the Adobe Acrobat Reader v3.0 or
higher to read/print it.

Later,
  Matt
- -----
Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club
http://www.rackers.org        info at rackers.org


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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 17:37:01 +0200
From: mark <shrike.cars at accesinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Hello again, decoction results, lager steps and IBU's

Paul,

   <snip>

   >My concern was that by the time I finished the initial decoct, the
   >main mash would be sitting at 140 for well over an hour - leading
   >to an insipid, overly attenuative beer.  This was the consensus of
   >the opinion.

As far as I have understood, one of the reasons for decocting is to
raise the temperature of the mash, and you hold it there until the
next batch of decocted mash is ready, that in turn raises the mash
to yet the next rest temperature.

I hate to sound self serving, but one of the double decoctions that I
do goes like this:


 2 Step Decoction Mash:

      1.3 quarts of water per pound of grain

      Mash in at room temp and raise to 50 C in 10 minutes, let rest
      for 30 minutes.

    1st Decoction:

      Seperate out thickest 30% to 40% of the mash and place it in a
      seperate pot.

      Ramp up the seperated mash in 15 minutes to 71C, allow to
      sacchrify for 10-15 minutes.

      Then raise to a boil in 15 minutes and boil it for 20 minutes.

      Return the decocted grains SLOWLY back to the main
      mash over a period of 10 minutes. This should raise the main
      mash temp to 63C (adjust if needed to hit this temp), hold for
      10 minutes.


    2nd Decoction

       After letting it sit for the 30 minutes, then again seperate
       out thickest 1/3rd of the mash and place it in a seperate pot.

       Ramp up the seperated 1/3rd to 71C in 5 minutes and let
       rest for 10 minutes.

       Then raise to a boil in 15 minutes and boil it for 20 minutes.

       Return the decocted grains SLOWLY back to the main
       mash over a period of 10 minutes. This should raise the main
       mash temp to 72C (adjust if needed to hit this temp), hold
       for 15 minutes (or until iodine test shows conversion)

       Mash out at 76C for 10 minutes.

       Sparge at 77C to 79 C.

       Rake with knife if needed.


Interesting note: What some of the larger breweries do is start the
decoction before and seperate from the rest of the mash (this would be
for a single step decoction, not a two or three step decoction). You
have to get the timing right, but you start the decoction ahead of the
main mash, and then add the decoction to the rest of the mash when you
are done with your first temp rest (not the protein rest). This
requires a bit of figuring out what to do when, but it's not that hard.
(Hey, I did it! how hard can it be?)

The addition of the decocted malt "should" (please note disclaimer)
ramp up temperatures sufficiently... The above single seperate
decoction sounds a bit weird, but it works. I tried it on a light
lager, worked nicely, nice grain finish and all. However, you might
ask why would you go to all this bother if a single decoction takes
only 20 to 30 minutes anyway? Well, it does make less of a mess....

Back to the subject at hand: I do not know what it would do to a
wheat beer (Dunkles Weizen). As far as I know, Dunkles Weizens rely
on the Munich malt & the double or triple decoction to also give it
a / the "Dunkles" flavour.

     <snip>

     >One flavor complaint:  With this particular dunkel, and with
     >any beer I have made since then with a significant amount of
     >munich (e.g, 30%), there is a bit of a "nut" bite that is not as
     >smooth-malty as I would hope for.  Using a single infusion and a
     >specialty malt (e.g., melanoidin or aromatic) to get some
     >melanoidin in the mash seems to mitigate against the nuttiness
     >whenever I have used a lot of munich.  Anyone else with this
     >impression?  BTW, I use DWC for all pilsner, munich,
     >and cara-malts.

What is DWC? A brand?

Here's what I use for my Double Decocted Dunkles Weisse Bier:

             4.5 lbs German Wheat Malt (aus Deutchland!)
             2.5 lbs Pale Malt
             2 lbs Munich Malt (aus Deutchland!)
             4 ozs Dark Crystal (60L to 80L)

There is not much in the way of Munich malt (21.6%).

Kunze Int'l Edition says:

A Munich malt with a colour of 25 EBC, when used as 25 to 40% of the
grist, helps to intensify the aroma. Whereas a Munich malt with only
10EBC is considered a base for darker beers.

Hmm... Might you want to switch types of malt over to a darker Munich
malt with greater flavour?

BTW: This recipe gave me a great Dunkles Weiss Bier, with a good
aroma and flavour. I do not seem to be running into the same problem
as you.

Just my thoughts.. hope I didn't ramble on for tooooo long...

********

If you could, please send me the recipe for
"Sister Star of the Sun" IPA? Thanks in advance...

********

If you reply, please reply to the address:

mark at awfulquiet.com

Prost!
Mark





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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:42:40 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Buffer Stability, Uric Acid Brews, Secret Squirrel

Brewsters:

Scott Murman would like to store  pH 4 phosphate
buffer for several months for his yeast ranching and
wonders about its biological stability.

Many years ago I used to make up starch solutions,
pour out some and use that for a label glue.  I made
up batches using boiling water and stored it in
several  screwtop sealed pepsi bottles. One which
was clear full  ( obviously one of those filled hot and
forgotten) was in the cold garage (in Wales) for
about a year or less. When opened to throw it
away, it was carbonated!  and the viscosity of the
solution was water-like. Bacteria at work.

I learned the basic principle that where life is
possible, it will get there somehow.  Then when I
saw Jurrasic Park, I realized that Hollywood
had once again stolen one of my ideas.

My point is, if your buffered solutions are meant
to be used to harbor life - like yeasts, chances are
it will become contaminated in time. Standard
pH buffers do have a biological stabilizer and
they still can go bad on the shelf. Always check
the pH of buffers with pH paper before using them.

My suggestion, if solubility is not a
problem, is to store the large solution of 

buffer in a refrigerator  which will reduce the chance
of contamination, but not eliminate it. Each time 

you use it, if the pH is OK I would sterilize it by
a heat treatment in boiling water ( use a pyrex bottle). 


I am curious to know why you are planning on
using a buffer in your sterile water storage, as
I believe the real beauty of this method is that
it does not offer lunch for bio-contaminants as
all other methods ( like yeast slants) do. Adding
a buffer would eventually cause all your yeast
samples to be contaminated, IMHO.
- --------------------------------
Phil and Jill Yates discovered uric acid in their
brews and believed that a neighbor' cat was
sabotaging their brew by doing the unthinkable
in their open fermenters. Maybe while hiding in
the dark of your brewery, you could not see
clearly the source of your problem. I submit that
the cat was probably chasing a bird which was
doing the even more unthinkable into your brew.

Birds eliminate uric acid routinely and mammals
do not normally do so through their urine, as I
recall from my 8th grade biology teacher's,
Jimmy Jones, lecture. 

- --------------------------------------
"Secret Squirrel", we don't use code names
on the HBD since we believe in exposing ourselves
honestly and openly. Join the party and use your
real name, otherwise we have to distrust what you
say to some extent as we do "Dr. Pivo" for the same
reason.  If you have somethign to say and believe
it, let's hear it and use your name. For all we know,
Secret Squirrel and Dr. Pivo could be the same 

person, especially since the comments were all
delivered one after the other .

As far as painting a "bullseye on my forehead" I
do that all the time without really trying to do so.
My little story about the progression of the
standardization of Western pronunciation of Chinese
probably didn't belong in a beer forum, except that it
was the idea that the same word (beer) in different
dialects may sound different, but have the same origin.

As far as the origin of my story, I do not have enough 

imagination nor knowledge of Chinese to create it 

out of whole cloth. Frankly, I do not see a lot of
difference between what I wrote and what you wrote,
except for the scholarly details. It was told to me by a native
Chinese professor from Beijing university when I asked
about the subject of why Beijing used to be Peiping.
The translation of the sounds are mine, but your "pee joe"
makes me wonder why the Western spelling I have
seen is beijo.  Is "my" native Chinese speaker bigger
and better than yours? More knowledgable? I don't know.

That is why we have referenced literature. It surprises
me to find that you as a scholar ( if you, Secret Squirrel,
really are) would dispute such a basic principle of
learning and public debate.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley
Kinnelon, NJ
Dave_Burley at Compuserve.com  


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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:54:43 -0400
From: "Jim B Verlinde" <beans at voyager.net>
Subject: Competition results

Adam Holmes asks;
>Why don't they take it one step further and post:

>1) the scores that each beer got

>2) how many beers were entered into each category

I have wondered this myself. I recently entered a Scotch Ale in an AHA Club
Only competition and received a decent score but as usual, no cigar. I wish
I knew how I stacked up against the other entries.

Jim Verlinde
Grand Rapids, MI



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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 14:29:38 -0400
From: Ed Choromanski <choroman at voicenet.com>
Subject: Bronze or Brass?

Hi All:

This may be a basic question but have been unable to find an answer and request
your help.

I am looking to buy a float valve to regulate my sparge water flow rate and have
2 models from Grainger that could flip the bill.  The only issue is one is brass
and the other is made of bronze.  I know the issue of lead in brass but is there
any problems in using bronze???

Thanks in advance,
Ed


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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:40:52 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: Keg cleaning

I hear talk about cleaning out your stainless kegs using the large carboy
brush.

Don't do it, the twisted metal brush core will rub against the keg sides and
leave a deposit that turns to rust.  Anyhow that's what happened to me.  I
was able to remove it later using Bar Keepers Friend and a scrubby pad after
removing the top.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:18:43 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: PinYin and Pi Jiu  

Secret Squirrel wrote:

> When the Chinese finally came up with their own transliteration system
> (PinYin), they decided on "Zh" for "J", (thus Bei Zhing), probably to reflect.

I was quite certain that the PinYin spelling was "Beijing" (third tone,
first tone) and the same with the "southerly capitol" "Nanjing".

Have they changed it?

I lived there '86 and '88, perhaps it's been changed.

Anyhow I've got a collected catalogue of 38 beers drinkable within
Beijing, if anybodies interested.  There are some pleasant drops there,
I think my favourites were at the Jao-tze restaurants where the beer was
delivered in a big tin barrel straight from the brewery, no pressure
system, and you got it out in plastic pitchers with little embossed
cartoon characters upon the sides (How do you like staring at a cheap
plastic pokey pig when guzzleing)...totally incongruent and amusing.  In
Beijing itself, I'd put Wu Xin (five stars) and "Beijing white" at the
top.  Up towards Chengdu, are some slightly darker and more pilsner like
styles.

Best of all, the standard bottle size was 620 ml I believe... didn't
have to ask for more so often.

For those interested in the different transcription, you can go to Hong
Kong, which street signs are in Yale I believe, and then up to mainland
where they use PinYin.

> the Guo Yu, or  national
> language)

Is this not referred to as "Po tong hua" anymore?


Ke i ge wo lai y ge Pi jiuma?

Dr. Pi jiu

haole, haole, haole


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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 15:16:42 -0500
From: zemo <zemo at ameritech.net>
Subject: Domestic champaigne bottles


I know: technically it's sparkling wine - bear with me.

I brewed a saison over the weekend. A friend suggested
I bring it to the homebrew club picnic. I think: Wouldn't
it be cool to bottle it in big bottles just like the
Belgians? Then I remember that the SO's daughter is working
the Mother's Day brunch at the local CC. She brings me
15 magnums (1.5L) from a California winery. I specifically
asked her to get American bottles because they are capable,
but lo and behold, STANDARD CROWNS DON'T FIT!! I know: I assumed.
Anywho (unless someone knows where to get larger crowns), can
I cork these bottles with premium wine corks, wire them in,
and still retain carbonation?

Naz dravni!

Zemo

Hey! Who stopped payment on my reality check?


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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 14:27:16 -0700
From: "Sandlin, Jonathan Mark - BUS" <SANJM304 at bus.orst.edu>
Subject: fermentation under pressure

	A while back there was a thread about fermenting under pressure to
get the same effects of lagering at a higher temperature.  I am curious if
there is a chart or formula that would give the pressure needed to ferment
at certain temperatures while holding the ambient temperature constant.
Also, is there a good source for an adjustable pressure releif valve that I
can hook up to a keg?  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Jon Sandlin
Corvallis, OR



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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 19:05:23 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Open fermenters, here kitty, kitty.


The neighbour's pesky cat had taken to finding his way in and committing the
unthinkable in my open fermenter!

See Dr. P.  I told you there were definate advantages to fermenting in
closed containers.    I have since read the data on flavor characteristics
of open fermenting so don't have a CAT.   (meow)
- --
So you wanna make beer, Visit me at http://fast.to/beer




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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 20:01:36 -0700
From: Allen W Senear <senear at seanet.com>
Subject: Sterilizing bottles

Sorry guys, but since this discussion has gone on so long I just have
to add my 2 cents worth.
	First (the boring part):  What I do is have a tub in my basement that
always has a dilute bleach solution in it. After finishing a bottle I
rinse it well and dump it in the tub, where it stays anywhere from
overnight to a couple of weeks, depending on how lazy I am.  I briefly
rinse (we have very microbiologically clean water in Seattle), drain and
air dry, and pack into commercial beer boxes and six-pack I've scrounged
from my local supermarket or people's recycling bins.  I then
periodically run a batch through my parents' dishwasher (full cycle, no
detergent).  Back into the boxes; I now cover a whole carrier's/boxes'
worth with a sheet of saran wrap, both to keep stuff from falling into
the bottle, and to mark which cases have been through the dishwasher. 
No infections (at least that my feable mind could detect) in over a
thousand bottles to this point.  It works for me.
	Second, the humorous historical story that might have a bit of useful
information about what didn't work buried in it: Back when I was a young
graduate student (this was about '72 or '73) I was in the lab of a young
assistant professor who didn't have a lot of grant money at the time
(she's now a member of the National Academy of Sciences, etc, and has no
money problems.)  We were studying various bacterial viruses, which
meant growing lots of bacteria and viruses, which meant we needed lots
of bottles to store various media (stuff cells grow in, not TV etc),
agar solutions, etc, in .  As the lab grew we needed more bottles. 
Buying the "official" bottles from the scientific supply houses was very
expensive, perhaps ten bucks a bottle in todays' terms, and we just
didn't really have the money.  Now back in those days, we (mostly a
fellow graduate student, but occaisionally myself too), would actually
drink beer at the lab bench in the afternoon while we worked (today you
would be breaking a kinds of regulations, many of which actually make a
lot of sense, but we were young and innocent and foolish back then.  One
afternoon Joan (boss) noticed the clear Miller (High Life - this was
back in the days before the "Lite" etc devolution) bottles were actually
an appropriate size for our purpose.  So she offered to buy the lab
several cases of Miller, out of her own pocket (she DID NOT use
government money), as long as we promised to save the bottles to use for
media storage (none of us had really heard of the concept of recycling
back then, we just invented it).
	Everybody was happy.  Until we got about a case and a half into the
Miller, and then started to try to use the bottles.  Whenever we put any
bacterial growth media into them, something would grow overnight.  Some
bottles were washed and autoclaved (empty as well as full) a half a
dozen times, but we could never sterilize them.  So we finally had to
dump the bottles and give up the experiment, except, of course, we did
dutifully finish the last couple of cases of beer.  A month of free beer
was a real boon to an impovrished grad student. 
	I have no idea what was in those bottles, but there was some kind of
spore that was resistant to standard autoclaving conditions (we did use
several different autoclaves while trying to sort this out, so it wasn't
simply due to a single defective machine.)  At the time we assumed it
was yeast spores (that yeast has spores was about all any of us knew
about yeast at the time.)  After working with S.c. in the lab since
then, I strongly doubt it was yeast.  But there was certainly something
in at least that one batch of Miller that a standard autoclave just
couldn't kill.

Allen W Senear
Big Water Brewing
Seattle


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Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:54:58 -0400
From: joytbrew at halifax.com (Joy Hansen)
Subject: Observations on Idophor

Hi,

Upon return to Virginia, I conducted an experiment with the local water, pH
7.6, and B.E.S.T. idophor sanitizer.  A test solution of idophor was mixed
at 50 ppm and allowed to stand in a pint jar.  Within 1 hour, the titratible
iodine level dropped to less than 25 ppm, and the pH was 5.6.  At 24 hours
after mixing, the level dropped to greater than 12.5 ppm and much less than
25 ppm.  The odor was characteristic of free iodine solutions.  B-T-F
Idophor Solutions test strips were held in the solution for one minute and
the color compared to that of the reference on the package.

The city water at this time of year exhibits a milky color for the first few
minutes after drawing a glass full.  On standing, the color dissipates.  I
assume that this is carbon dioxide and other dissolved gases present in the
well water.

Upon mixing the idophor water solution, the mix turned dark orange; however,
there seemed to be turbidity present similar to the original pour of the
water from the tap.  This turbidity cleared within 15 minutes.  The rust
colored or brick red precipitate was accumulating on the bottom of the jar
as the turbidity cleared.   I decanted the liquid off the precipitate and
found it to be insoluble in water my tap water.  Then I tried to dissolve
the residue in 70 percent isopropanol.  The color completely dissolved and
left an opaque precipitate.   Later in the day, the yellow color was gone
and the alcohol was colorless and clear.  Seems like there might be an
organic/iodine complex that is insoluble at pH 6.5

Average of four city wells

                           iron           <.02 ppm
                       sodium       38 ppm
                            pH           8.3
              bicarbonate      165 ppm
                    chloride          40 ppm
                     sulfate            20 ppm
       calcium hardness     130
            total hardness      140
                carbonate           14
          total alkalinity          180
     magnesium by diff        40 ppm

It's my opinion that I cannot use idophor sanitizer solutions due to the
poor economy of using 2 ounces of B.E.S.T in 5 gallons of my city water
which results in a measured >12.5 and < 25 ppm.   I'm still open to
suggestions and explanations regarding this particular brewing situation.

Thanks,

                                      Joy"T"Brew




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