---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  RIMS Question ("Sandy Macmillan")
  Why and when to measure gravity. ("Fred L. Johnson")
  Calcium Phosphate Truce? (Matthew Comstock)
  Re: Competition results (RobertJ)
  Re: Getting Honey Flavor (mark)
  Re: fwh formula? (mark)
  Re:Getting honey flavor (ROATTW)" <ROATTW at UCMAIL.UC.EDU>
  re : Hallertau Hops -- Summary (and other German hops) ("Alan McKay")
  RE: converting a keg to a boiling pot (Danny Johnson)
  Slavic toasts ("Alan McKay")
  uric acid vs. urea (Anton Verhulst)
  Cutting Sankeys w/ a Dremel ("Cameron LiDestri")
  centrifuging starters (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  RE: Cutting sankes/legality/dilution/Spud beer (LaBorde, Ronald)
  gravity readings?? (Domenick Venezia)
  Is there such a thing as an autoclave-resistant organism?? (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  A newbie bottler question? ("Brett A. Spivy")
  Calcium Phosphate, Champagne Corks (Dave Burley)
  Sinology and Sodomy ("Dr. Pivo")
  Using epsom salts for hop plants? (Paul Shick)
  Pasta Beer ("Frank J. Russo")
  Lifting converted-keg kettles (Bob Sheck)
  Indiana homebrew legalization (of sorts) (Steve Jackson)
  laws (Bryan Gros)
  Prague (Troy Hager)
  Colorful Wits ("Rob")
  keg conversion (JPullum127)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

2000 MCAB Qualifiers: Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99
(http://burp.org/SoFB99); Oregon Homebrew Festival 5/22/99
(http://www.mtsw.com/hotv/fest.html); Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99
(http://www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff)

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. 
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
  the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!

Contact brewery at hbd.org for information regarding the "Cat's Meow"

Back issues are available via:

  HTML from...
        http://hbd.org
  Anonymous ftp from...
	ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests
	ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer
  AFS users can find it under...
        /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

COPYRIGHT for the Digest as a collection is currently held by hbd.org 
  (Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen). Digests in their entirity CANNOT be 
  reprinted/reproduced without this entire header section unless 
  EXPRESS written permission has been obtained from hbd.org. Digests
  CANNOT be reprinted or reproduced in any format for redistribution
  unless said redistribution is at absolutely NO COST to the consumer.
COPYRIGHT for individual posts within each Digest is held by the
  author. Articles cannot be extracted from the Digest and
  reprinted/reproduced without the EXPRESS written permission of the 
  author. The author and HBD must be attributed as author and source in
  any such reprint/reproduction. (Note: QUOTING of items originally
  appearing in the Digest in a subsequent Digest is exempt from the
  above. Home brew clubs NOT associated with organizations having a
  commercial interest in beer or brewing may republish articles in their
  newsletters and/or websites provided that the author and HBD are
  attributed. ASKING first is still a great courtesy...)

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:43:05 +0300
From: "Sandy Macmillan" <scotsman at ncc.moc.kw>
Subject: RIMS Question

Hi all
I have a RIMS question. All the articles I have read and people spoken to
have always kept the sparge water as a separate supply for sparging.
Then after sparging is complete the water is boiled. What is wrong with the
idea of maintaining your sparge water in the boiling kettle, but at the
lower correct temperature, and then using the circulating pump to return the
sparge water to the kettle and recirculate the then diluted sparge water
back through the system. Sparging would then continue until the water volume
had passed through the grains i.e. if the pump was running at 1 litre per
minute and there was 30 litres of water for boil volume then sparge for 30
minutes. It seems you could then only need one kettle or boiler.
Has anyone tried this approach, or am I missing a simple fact or two?

Sandy
Brewing in a dry place!
Scotsman at ncc.moc.kw



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 07:47:17 -0400
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Why and when to measure gravity.

Todd is moving into all grain brewing and asks about why to perform gravity
measurements and how to do it since he has never performed one in five years
of brewing:

I'm sure I don't need to tell you, Todd, that the specific gravity is a
measurement of how much sugar is in the wort.  If one is using extracts as
you have for many years, this isn't really much in question; but as you move
into mashing, variations of materials, technique, and equipment used in
grinding, mashing and lautering will cause variability of the amount of
sugar you generate and extract from the grains.  Measuring the specific
gravity is valuable in determining how these and any intentional variations
in technique have affected the final amount of sugar you obtain in the wort.

If you are targeting a specific gravity of the unfermented wort, you can do
the following after the sparge to determine if you need to add some dry or
liguid malt extract to achieve the final target gravity.  You must know the
specific gravity and the volume of the wort before the boil and you must
know the amount of water that you will boil off.  This latter value can be
determined by measuring preboil and postboil volumes on a few or several
typical brewing sessions.  Kettle volumes can best be measured with a
calibrated sight tube on your kettle.  Alternatively you can use aluminum
yardstick as a dipstick, as I do. (I won't get into the fine points of
adjusting volume measurements for temperature changes at this time.  I also
won't get into the fine points of calculating hop additions based upon
differences in preboil gravities.)

>From the measurements of specific gravity and volume, you can calculate
before what the postboil specific gravity will be.  If the calculated
postboil gravity is high, you can add a calculated amount of water before
the boil to achieve your target postboil gravity.  Of course, you will have
more wort to ferment than originally planned.  (Good starter culture
material.)  If the preboil gravity is too low to achieve the targeted
postboil gravity, you can add a calculated amount of dry or liquid malt
extract before the boil to achieve your target postboil gravity.
Alternatively, you can boil longer for the calculated amount of time based
upon the known rate of boiloff.   Of course, adjustment of the timing of the
hop additions should be made if you are altering the boil time.  I am sure
you can begin to appreciate that GOOD measurements can be valuable and that
bad measurements can be worthless.

If, instead, you perform all of your gravity and volume measurements only at
the end of the boil and you find that you've missed your target, you will
either have to add more water which must be preboiled or you will add more
extract which must also be preboiled or reboiled.

Of course, it is important to measure the specific gravity again after the
boil to confirm that your adjustments and calculations achieved the target.
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 05:09:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: Calcium Phosphate Truce?

Matt, Matt, Matt....

I'll resend my personal email to you over the hbd
wire:

This calcium phosphate discussion is getting silly. 
It seems to me the bottom line is that calcium ions +
phosphate ions may lead to formation of
(calcium)x(PO4)yLz where L = OH, or god knows what. 
Hydroxyapatite precipitation is only important at high
pH?  Pick another (calcium)x(PO4)yLz then.   Many
calcium phosphates are insoluble (not all are
insoluble, for example, Ca(H2PO4)2).  With all the
junk floating around in wort there are prone to be
nucleation sites available for precipitation to
'start.'

In "Chemistry of the Elements," (Greenwood and
Earnshaw) they throw their hands up in the air about
the whole discussion and say:

"...The solubility of metal phosphates clearly depends
on pH, salinity, temperature, etc., but in neutral
solution Ca3(PO4)2 (solubility product ca. 10 exp-29
mol5L-5) may first precipitate and then gradually
transform into the less soluble hydroxyapatite
[Ca5(PO4)3(OH)], and finally, into the least soluble
member, fluoroapatite (solubility product ca 10 exp-60
mol9L-9)....."

Whatever

One thing I would like to thank you for is reminding
me that wort is not water.  There are all kinds of
competing complexation equilibria tying up various
ions as opposed to the 'simple' case of water. 
However,  even with a large equilibrium constant for

Ca2+  +  Ligand  < - >  Ca(Ligand)   K = big, 

the precipitation reactions of various calcium
phosphates have very small solubility products, and
precipitation is one heck of a driving force.  Le
Chatelier would tell us that as soon as that *one*
free PO4 ion floating around in your mash got sucked
into a precipitation reaction and dropped out of
solution, another would jump out and fill the vacancy.
  

My take on this is that adding calcium to your brewing
liquor undoubtedly affects the overall phosphate
present and/or dissolved in the mash/wort.  Does it
all precipitate?  As hydroxyapatite?  Nope, and nope. 
Can you strip all the phosphate out of solution with
calcium addition.  I think you've clearly argued nope.
 Does some precipitate?  I bet some does.  Can I prove
it?  Nope.  Can you prove it doesn't?  Nope.  Can you
or I argue for or against it?  Yep. 

Can we chemists alienate everyone on the hbd by
arguing about goofy chemical reactions that depend so
much on reactions conditions that anything we would
conclude would be completely invalid for a different
brewer?  Yep.

This is an open forum and its always fun to argue, but
this seems like a silly thread.  Let's get back to
Clinitest.

Why is it these 'threads' always degenerate into an
irritating shouting match?  Why can't we have positive
threads, like, Hey I tried Nottingham yeast and it
rocks, or Hey, if you like bitter and spicy beers you
should try Chinook hops (my rhizomes have sent up
their first shoot - it is about 4 inches tall now! 
Yes!)

Latersville, 

Matt in Cincinnati.


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:37:16 -0400
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Re: Competition results

On Mon, 10 May 1999 00:23:27 -0400, Adam Holmes asks;

>Why don't they take it one step further and post:
>
>1) the scores that each beer got
>
>2) how many beers were entered into each category
____

I have brought this point up a few times in years past, on HBD and with the
AHA and found that most would disagree with me. I also, would like to see
all scores posted in order to know where the beer placed in the field. We
have done this in all our competitions (8 NY City Spring Regional) with up
to 325 entries.

The main arguments, I have heard, in the past, for not doing are: The score
should tell where your beer is ie 30+ is in style, 40+ is an excellent
example of style etc. If a category is judged in several flights by
different judges a comparison is meaningless. Posting all scores might be
embarassing for those not doing well. The comments and suggestions are what
is important.

I do not agree. I think most competitions and espescially the AHA
(Nationals) just don't want the additional work.

I would like to see where the beer stood in it's category. Were all the
scores 30 - 35 and my 30 was considered mediocre or were most scores 20-25
& I just missed placing? If, in a combined category; was mine the best
stout and beaten by a porter? Although there would be room for
interpretation (judging is not an exact science, the brewer will have a
better idea of where his beer stands.

Although not perfect, in the NYCHBC competition we indicate judge panels
(A, B, C etc) so an entrant can see where his beer placed in the flight and
if it was considered for a mini best of show, used to determine a category
winner. We also indicate the category/subcategory for each entrant. Names
are posted only for the top 3, all other entries just have entry #s to
avoid possible embarrassment.

Depending on your brewing level and available local judge evaluations the
comments can be the most important benefit of entering. However, as a
National judge with several very qualified other local judges, I have had
beers judged by inexperienced judges where the comments were both useless
and inaccurate. It happens, judges have a bad day or have done too many
beers, I don't take it seriously. 
Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://www.pbsbeer.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:57:28 +0200
From: mark <shrike.cars at accesinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Getting Honey Flavor

Dave & all the fellow HBDers,

I don't know much about priming with honey (or beer with honey) but
wouldn't what Dave wrote below then just ferment in the keg? Leaving
you with a larger than normal layer of yeast on the bottom.. You 
could prime with honey.. instead of force carbonating, or add it to 
your secondary fermenter? If it doesn't ferment, which might be highly 
unlikely, (I'm pretty sure brewer's yeast will ferment honey, although
I may be wrong? anyone care to clarify?) then you will have a 
honey sweet beer...

Having scanned a few mead making books in the past, pastreurized honey
looses some of it's floral / and or "honey" charateristics.... But 
then this is a beer, where honey characteristics may not be the most 
"major" player in aroma / flavour

Prost!
Mark
mark at awfulquiet.com

Dave wrote:

>Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 10:35:44 EDT
>From: Lostboy676 at aol.com
>Subject: Getting honey flavor
>
>Someone recently asked about getting more honey flavor from their beer. I
>was wondering, couldnt you just add some paturized honey at kegging time and
>force carbonate? I'm just curious.
>Dave


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:57:42 +0200
From: mark <shrike.cars at accesinternet.com>
Subject: Re: fwh formula?

Jim,

What is First Wort Hopping Technique? I haven't heard that term
before...

Thanks,

Mark
mark at awfulquiet.com


>Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 06:42:00 -0800
>From: jim williams <jim&amy at macol.net>
>Subject: fwh formula?

>does a formula exist that figures ibu of first wort hopping technique?
>thanks, jim.


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:06:45 -0400
From: "Roat, Todd (ROATTW)" <ROATTW at UCMAIL.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re:Getting honey flavor

>Someone recently asked about getting more honey flavor from their beer. I
was wondering, >couldn't you just add some paturized honey at kegging time
and force carbonate? I'm just >curious.
>Dave


I got excellent honey flavor recently by boiling 2# of honey in about 2
quarts of water and adding to brewpot last 5-10 minutes of boil. The heat
pasturized (?) it without altering/degrading/reducing the flavor.  Nice
honey flavor!



Todd W. Roat
Clinical Trials Coordinator
EMCREG Coordinator
Department of Emergency Medicine
231 Bethesda Avenue
Cincinnati, Ohio  45267-0769
(P)513-558-5216
(F)513-558-5791
emcreg at uc.edu
todd.roat at uc.edu
 
 


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:21:50 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: re : Hallertau Hops -- Summary (and other German hops)

In 3016 Jeffrey Hittinger summarizes Garetz as saying :

"German hop names typically have two or three parts. The first part 

 of the name should be an adjective referring to the region in which 

 the hops were grown, for example, Hallertau, Hersbruck, or Spalt.  

 The second part of the name describes the variety (cultivar) by 

 the region where the strain originated; typically, this is 

 constructed by adding the suffix -er to the region name. "

When I first read this a couple of weeks ago, something about
it just didn't agree with me. Although Garetz' description is
pretty-much right on the nose of how hops names are derived.
What I want to set straight for the record is Garetz 

misrepresentation of German grammar.  I know that's kind of
anal of me, but we might as well call an orange an orange.

This message is translated and summarized from :
http://www.bier-selbstgebraut.de/wwwforum/messages/301.html
which is Markus Hillenbrand's answer to my questions concerning
the matter.  Markus is a brewmaster and maltster in Wiesloch.

The first part of the hop name is indeed the name of the
growing region.  But it's not "an adjective referring to the
region" as Garetz states, but rather it's the name of the
region.  No adjectives involved in this part.  Also, it should 

properly always be written in capital letters.

Garetz notes that the next part is the "part of the name
which describes the variety" and that "typically, this is
constructed by adding the suffix -er to the region name".
Now we are talking adjectives.  As soon as you start adding
'-er' to just about anything, you are turning it into an
adjective.

Here is the rest of Markus' message, translated into English
by myself (with the original German as well) :

Tatschlich besteht der Name eines deutschen Hopfens aus 2 oder 

3 Woertern. Das erste Wort bedeutet das Anbaugebiet (GROSS 

GESCHRIEBEN), wo der Hopfen geerntet wurde. Das zweite Wort 

bedeutet die Hopfensorte(Klein Geschrieben). Manchmal besteht 

die Hopfensorte aus 2 Woertern. Es gibt dann noch Abkuerzungen 

fuer die Hopfenbezeichnungen (meistens 3 GROSSE BUCHSTABEN). 

So sieht das im Einzelnen dann aus:

Actually the name of a hop consists of 2 or 3 words.  The first
word is the area (WRITTEN IN CAPS), where the hop was grown.
The 2nd word is the hop cultivar (written small).  Sometimes
there hop cultivar consists of 2 words.  Then there is also
short-cut names for all of them (with at most 3 LARGE LETTERS).
So the individual names look like this :

Anbaugebiet HALLERTAU (Bayern): (In alten Buechern findet man 

auch die Bezeichnung Holledau, das ist aber nur der 

bayerische Dialekt und meint Hallertau.)

Area HALLERTAU (Bavaria): (In older books you can see it also
called "Holledau", but that's just the Bavarian dialect for
the same thing)

(NOTE: for non-German speakers "ue" is another way of writing
  "u" with umlaut over it.  e.g. "mittelfrueh" .  Same for
  "ae" being "a" with umlaut in "spaet")

"Anbaugebeit" == "area where it's grown"

     HALLERTAU Hallertauer mittelfrueh = HHA
     HALLERTAU Hersbrucker spaet = HHE
     HALLERTAU Spalter Select = HSE
     HALLERTAU Hallertauer Tradition = HHT
     HALLERTAU Perle = HPE
     HALLERTAU Northern Brewer = HNB
     HALLERTAU Hallertauer Magnum = HHM

     Anbaugebiet TETTNANG : (Baden-Wuerttemberg, am Bodensee)
     TETTNANG Tettnanger = TTE
     TETTNANG Hallertauer mittelfrueh = THA

     Anbaugebiet ELBE-SAALE : (Thueringen, Sachsen, Sachsen-Anhalt)
     ELBE-SAALE Hallertauer Magnum = ESHM

     Anbaugebiet SPALT : (Bayern)
     SPALT Spalter = SSP
     SPALT Spalter Select = SSE
     SPALT Hersbrucker spaet = SHE
     SPALT Hallertauer mittelfrueh = SHA

     Anbaugebiet HERSBRUCK : (Franken, bei Nuernberg)
     HERSBRUCK Hersbrucker spaet = HEHE


Andere kleine Anbaugebiete sind noch in der RHEINPFALZ 

(Bad Bergzabern) und in der EIFEL (Bitburg).

There are also smaller areas in the RHEINPFALZ area
(Bad Bergzabern) and in the EIFEL area (Bitburn)

     Markus Hillenbrand, Brauer und Maelzer, Wiesloch

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
http://zftzb00d/alanmckay/

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:26:32 -0400
From: Danny Johnson <shag at ipass.net>
Subject: RE: converting a keg to a boiling pot

>From Ron La Borde:

Many people will recommend using a sawz-all, or some kind of cut-off
grinder, etc, but a Dremel motor tool with the fiber cut-off
wheel works
great.  You can sit down in a chair, and using 3 or 4
wheels, about 30
minutes, and a pint of beer, you will have a nicely cut out
top.  Use a
little heavy grit sandpaper on the edge, and you will have a
very smooth
opening.
 ................

Very neat and clean method. You must ear goggles and a
breathing mask due to the fine airborne grit that is  caused
by the dremel wheel and ear protection as well. 

I used this method with one additional jig. I clamped a 7"
dia. loop of string/wire to the business end of the dremel
and wrapped the loop around the keg valve. This jig was then
adjusted to let the dremel wheel cut exactly six inches from
the center created a perfect, clean, smooth 12' opening. I
have to credit Rick calley
(http://www.pressenter.com/~rcalley/index.htm) for this tip
several years ago.  

Later I was given a tip by Mike at American Brewmaster
(http://www.americanbrewmaster.com/) that involved using the
now detached sankey valve. The sankey valve could be removed
from the 12" disk and then welded to the lid of a corny keg
for those with the sankey tap systems.I did not pursue this
project but thought I would pass it on for those that might
run with the idea.

Dan Johnson
Raleigh, NC


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:41:35 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Slavic toasts

Not the stuff with bread :-)

Yes, "w" is "v" in Slavic languages which don't use the
cyrillic alphabit.  It's also "v" in most Germanic lanugages,
with the notable exception of English.

In Russian it's "na zdorovje" with "z" in the middle, not "s".
"to your health"

BTW this "Zimne" (cold) is strikingly similar the
Russian "Zima" (winter).

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
http://zftzb00d/alanmckay/


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:20:51 -0400
From: Anton Verhulst <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: uric acid vs. urea

Uric acid from a cat peeing in your open fermentor?  Probably not. 
Every one knows that when mammals metabolize proteins, the waste product
is urea and not uric acid.  Its the reptiles and birds that produce the
uric acid. Clearly the cat brought some other friends that contributed
the uric acid.  And, since reptiles and birds don't urinate and
only...... never mind.


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 07:34:07 -0400
From: "Cameron LiDestri" <cameronl at wshu.org>
Subject: Cutting Sankeys w/ a Dremel

>From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Cutting sankes/legality/dilution/Spud beer
>
>Cutting Sanke tops with a Dremel !! Ron LaBorde either has access to the
>thinnest  Sanke's or the most powerful Dremel I've ever heard of.

Steve,
I too cut my keg with a Dremel.  Piece o' cake!  Use the reinforced cut-off
wheel (I went thru six of them).  Took about 40 minutes.  Got a nice, clean
line.  I couldn't imagine what the cut would look like using a sawzall.  The
trick is to stay on top of the cut.  Once you penetrate the keg,  don't drop
the wheel down into the slot and push into the cut...your wheel will wear
down to nothing quickly.

 -Cameron LiDestri
Grandemadaca Brewery



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:20:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: centrifuging starters

Adam Holmes writes:

>>>Does anyone out there have any experience in centrifuging your yeast
>>>starters?  I would like to spin down the yeast and decant the spent wort.


 - I use 1,000 x g for 10 minutes to pellet my starters. Usually set up a well
aerated starter on Monday, step it  up during the week and pellet on Friday.
I then bring the pellet home and feed it malt extract while I brew on
Saturday. This seems to work very well as you allow the yeast maximum
oxygenation during step up (healthy, happy yeast) and discard the horribly
oxidized spent growth media by the centrifugation step. I also use a magnetic
stirrer at home and have gotten excellent results with it. This past year I've
paid much more attention to increasing my pitching rates... 200 BILLION yeast
for a 20L (~5 gallon) batch is a LOT of yeast! I shudder to think of how I
used to just pitch a swolen smack pack when I first started out... Now I have
plenty of yeast, they're off and running and I have virtually no lag time to 
speak of!

 -Alan Meeker
Baltimore, Md.





Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:09:05 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Cutting sankes/legality/dilution/Spud beer

>>>>>>
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Cutting sankes/legality/dilution/Spud beer

Cutting Sanke tops with a Dremel !! Ron LaBorde either has access to the
thinnest  Sanke's or the most powerful Dremel I've ever heard of.
<<<<<<

Truth is stranger than fiction!

Try it - you'll like it.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 08:35:29 -0700
From: Domenick Venezia <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: gravity readings??


Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 09:34:04 -0400 From: larson.jt at pg.com
>
>I thought I should try.  A couple of questions:  When should I take the
>reading?  Some of the books say to take a reading just prior to pitching;
>if that's true, then how would I correct a low gravity?  I presume I add
>some water to a high reading.  TIA for any help.

Todd,

I take readings at various points in my process to track different aspects
of the process.  Gravity readings during the sparge can help you decide
when to stop the sparge to avoid oversparging and the astringency that can
result.  I stop between 1.020 and 1.015 depending upon how much volume I
have collected.  A reading after the sparge will let you track the
efficiency of your mash and sparge.  Once you know the SG of the runnings
that are going into the boil you can figure out how much volume reduction
is needed to hit your target gravity, then a reading after the boil to
determine what you actually hit.  Taking gravity readings after the beer
is in the fermenter will help you decide when to bottle.  A final reading
at bottling will let you calculate your attenuation and the alcohol
content of the beer.  Only the post boil readings are a volume loss.
Don't put them back - drink them.

Since a single gravity reading has little meaning, if you are going to
take any readings, you need to take at least 2 readings at different
points in your process.  If I had to take only 2 readings during a batch I
think that it would be just before going into the fermenter and just
before bottling.  You can decide when to stop the sparge by volume or
taste.  You can decide how much volume reduction you need in the boil by
the size of your fermenter (6 or 7 gallon fermenters give more flexibility
in this regard).  If you record the sparge volume, and the post boil
volume, you can backtrack to approximate the sparge efficiency from the
post boil SG.  But, it is hard to gauge the performance of your yeast
without gravity readings.  Final gravity readings can also hint at process
weaknesses.

Since you are just starting your all-grain brewing, I'll throw out a piece
of advice that I wish I had taken to heart early, rather than come to
myself over the years. 

"Trade ingredients for time and effort."

Rather than chase those last 5 points of extraction efficiency, throw in
an extra pound or even 2 of malt.  The less excess volume you have to deal
with in your overall process the faster and easier is everything.  If you
are not brewing at the edges of the envelope you will brew better beer. An
extra pound of malt can save you an hour or more, with faster sparge and
shorter boil.  It takes me an hour to boil off 1 gallon of volume.  If I
can collect 7 rather than 9 gallons I've saved at least 2 hours.

Cheers!  I hope this helped. 

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:37:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Is there such a thing as an autoclave-resistant organism??

Allen Senear related an interesting story from his lab experiences...

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Everybody was happy.  Until we got about a case and a half into the
Miller, and then started to try to use the bottles.  Whenever we put any
bacterial growth media into them, something would grow overnight.  Some
bottles were washed and autoclaved (empty as well as full) a half a
dozen times, but we could never sterilize them.  So we finally had to
dump the bottles and give up the experiment, except, of course, we did
dutifully finish the last couple of cases of beer.  A month of free beer
was a real boon to an impovrished grad student. 
	I have no idea what was in those bottles, but there was some kind of
spore that was resistant to standard autoclaving conditions (we did use
several different autoclaves while trying to sort this out, so it wasn't
simply due to a single defective machine.)  At the time we assumed it
was yeast spores (that yeast has spores was about all any of us knew
about yeast at the time.)  After working with S.c. in the lab since
then, I strongly doubt it was yeast.  But there was certainly something
in at least that one batch of Miller that a standard autoclave just
couldn't kill.

Allen W Senear
Big Water Brewing
Seattle
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
OK I'd like to get to the bottom of this idea of "autoclave-resistant spores" 
Is there any credible scientific evidence for the existance of ANY form of
life (spore, virus, mycoplamsa, rodent, etc) that can resist autoclaving??
(sorry, no prions please)

I've heard rumors of such things over the years, most recently from a labmate
of mine who thinks he "remembers hearing about some resistant spores in
microbiology once." This has been my experience with this idea -  that someone
has heard about it somewhere, but I've never been able to find any mention of
this phenomenon in any medical microbiology text I've looked in. 

I use autoclaves all the time and only rarely seen contaminations and these
invariably turn out to be the result of a faulty autoclave, improper run
(especially too short a time to allow large liquid volumes to attain
temperature), or post-autoclave contamination due to broken seals, etc...
perhaps one of these was responsible for your experience Allen, although you
did seem to rule out a few possibilities since you say you did several runs,
sometimes with the bottles unfilled and in several different autoclaves. 

So, does anyone have any REFERENCES on the existence of autoclave-resistant
life forms?? Perhaps Dinococcus radiodurans is somewhat resistant, I'll have
to check my notes...  Enquiring Minds Want To Know!!   

 -Alan Meeker
Baltimore, Md







Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:23:07 -0500
From: "Brett A. Spivy" <baspivy at softdisk.com>
Subject: A newbie bottler question?

Well, thanks to the help of over twenty people who responded by email to
my "Newbie Question" about equipment requirements, and particularly to
the help of Bob Carbone aka "The Beerslayer" who owns the closest HB
shop to Shreveport, I now have the minimum required equipment for the
intermediate brewer (of which I'm not - yet).

Much thanks to all and I will be sending the name and phone number of
the Mexican Carboy distributor to the persons that have requested that
information shortly.

Now my question - I'll be asking Bob this later and my have the correct
(is there such an absolute in HB) answer by the time anyone responds.  I
have created a label for my beer - please no moaning about bottling vs
kegging.  The label has a small are at the bottom to write in the style,
and is designed so that I can PRINT the style  in when I have enough of
any one beer to make that practical.  It also has an area to
write/print  OG, FG, Alch. %, Caloric Values, Brew Date, and Bottle
Date.  The net result is that the label is pretty impressive and
professional looking (at least I think so), and I don't want to screw it
up in the application.  I would also like to avoid the toilsome labor
involved in scrubbing off a Becks, St. Pauli Girl (the foil top), or Sam
Adams label (this was almost enough to send me back to the Beerslayer to
purchase a kegging operation).

What adhesive and application technique do you seasoned brewer /
bottlers recommend for my labeling?  Where is it commercially
available?  Is there some version of this adhesive I can make?  So far,
my best option is Crayola TM  washable GlueStick which is totally water
soluble, stick like the devil to glass (till its wet), and is EASY to
apply.  it is expensive though, and it will take two full sticks (maybe
three) to label 56 bottles.

Thanx . . .
Brett A. Spivy
baspivy at softdisk.com
318-469-1199  Anytime (cellular)
800-844-4486  7:30am-4:30pm EST




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:39:40 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Calcium Phosphate, Champagne Corks

Brewsters:

Matt B. accuses me of being all knowing. Thanks!
But I don't accept the title.  He accuses me of relying
on books for my knowledge. To that I say Thanks!
I do accept that characterization. Would others
so choose, I would certainly be happier.

I cannot understand why anyone would be
annoyed that I care enough for the HBD readership
to take the time and care to provide quotations
from real experts on brewing, rather than my
sole opinion. Does anyone understand this?
Can you provide a valid psychological analysis?

Matt, I can only comment that your dissertation
on various equilibria in a wort is interesting, but
seems to confuse pKa and pKsp, unless I
read it incorrectly.  The point of the pKa
( I assume you mean this and not the pKsp?)
of CaHPO4 being what it is, supports my point
that this salt dissociates by releasing a proton
and precipitates as the tri-calcium phosphate
salt in the presence of a more soluble
(than calcium phosphate) calcium salt like
calcium sulfate.

I will provide you a quote from,
you guessed it, M&BS (1st edition, p 210):

"The addition of calcium sulphate, and to a
lesser extent magnesium sulfate, to a mash
results in a desirable reduction in pH.....
For example, at wort pH:

3Ca(^+2)  + 2HPO4(^-2) = 2H(^+1) + Ca3(PO4)2(ppt)"

Thus, the calcium ion releases protons from
the protonated phosphate ions and the pH falls.

Which was my point. Relative to the
bicarbonate/carbonate equilibria this can
be treated as a strong acid source. 


This is the major driving force for pH control
at wort pHs. If HPO4 ion behaves this way there
should be no doubt in your mind that the more
acidic H2PO4 ion does also.

Hydorxy apatite is, of course, not formed at
wort pH, which was why I asked why it was
being discussed as if it were important at
wort pH.
- ----------------------
Zemo discovered what I painfully found out some
time ago ( after the bottles had been filled!),
not all California champagne bottles are built to
take a standard crown cap. Some, in fact, are really
fake tops and won't take a crown cap even if you
had the correct diameter.  Since this is a Belgian
beer, why not just take high quality wine corks,
partially (3/4) insert them with a corker and wire them
down? If you can find them, real champagne corks
are available but I believe you need a specially
designed corker. If you can't get to a wine corker
( rent one from the HB store?) you can alternatively
use a plastic champagne cork wired down.


Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:30:07 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: Sinology and Sodomy

Dave Burley seemed a bit miffed by "Secret Squirrel" correcting his
ancient Chinese transcription, and wandering speculations.

> The translation of the sounds are mine, but your "pee joe"
> makes me wonder why the Western spelling I have
> seen is beijo

I do believe he explained it to you, if you were listening instead of
preparing your rebuttle.

I actually thought that was a quite good mnemonic, and one I wish I'd
thought of myself (though surprisingly, this word, I learned quite
rapidly), and if used with the right tones, I'm sure would be
understood.

I am not faulting Mr.Burley for not having a better knowledge of
Chinese.  It is a frightfully difficult language for Occidentals because
of the tonality, and true fluidity is only achieved by the talented, the
dedicated, or the drunk (it's surprising how a couple of those 620 ml
jobbies lubricate your mouth, and allow you to make a fool of yourself
enough times until you get it right... and like everywhere else, if you
learn the polite phrases first, people EVERYWHERE are amazingly
helpful).

I'm not surprised that Mr. Burley's knowledge of Chinese transcripture
is about 50 years out of date, that seems concurrent with his industrial
brewing thinking.

I am not even expecting Mr. Burley to admit he is "wrong"... we wouldn't
want to establish any new precedents.

What I do take exception to, is his language abuse...

>  otherwise we have to distrust what you
> say to some extent as we do "Dr. Pivo" for the same
> reason. 

I may not be the most talented English speaker, but I do know that "we"
is a "collective" or "plural" pronoun, and requires it to be more than
"one" before being used.

This is rather like abusing yourself behind the barn, and then saying:
"'We' had a good time".

Now, I don't want you doing that (not the barn part.... let that be
every individual's choice). I mean the LANGUAGE abuse part.

Furthermore, this really got my goat....

>  For all we know,
> Secret Squirrel and Dr. Pivo could be the same 
> 
> person, especially since the comments were all
> delivered one after the other 

"Secret Squirrel" is NOT my signature.  I'm not saying I haven't had
sexual relations with a squirrel, just that I've kept them clandestine. 
I would never announce that publicly.  I'm just not the sort to "kiss
and tell".

Finally, the barn part you may continue as much as you like, but this is
just too much....

>  we believe in exposing ourselves
> honestly and openly.

please don't.

Pijiu Dai Fu


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:47:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Paul Shick <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
Subject: Using epsom salts for hop plants?

 


Hello all,

	I have a quick question for the hop growers in the collective.
Last year, my bines had a bit of yellowing in the leaves, especially
in the late summer.  I vaguely recall that this is due to a magnesium
deficiency, and that epsom salts are the cure.  What procedure should 
one use for applying epsom salts?  In solution?  Just sprinkle in a
handful?  The hops are looking so good this year, I don't want to
screw it up.  Thanks in advance for any information/experiences. 

   			Paul Shick 
 			Basement brewing in Cleveland Hts OH

 



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:07:11 -0400
From: "Frank J. Russo" <FJRusso at coastalnet.com>
Subject: Pasta Beer

Greetings one and all!

I have seen many strange but interesting postings in the digest so I know
you won't mind mine.  A few months ago while cooking some pasta and having a
beer I noticed when I was done, with the pasta that is, the water I cooked
in was very heavy.  Starch I said to myself.  It was what my father always
rinsed off of the pasta after it was cooked.

Next question: Can I use it, this starch loaded water, to mash my grains in?
Why not!

A few weeks later I went on to make a wheat beer, using 25% wheat malt
extract plus grains.  I mashed my grains in the water I used to cook and
rinsed some pasted that morning.  I mash for 2 hours, doing an iodine check
for the presents of starch periodically.

The rest of the process was normal.  OG 1.057  FG 1.010

Well it has been in the bottle for 6 weeks.  And I have taste tested it.
And I am very pleased with what I have come up with.  Great head, smooth
body, No off flavors that I can detect.  Remember my main purpose in home
brewing is to please ONLY ME! My local brew club will be getting a chance to
taste this at our meeting this month.

Has anyone else done something like this?  Any comments?

Frank
FJRusso at Coastalnet.com
Havelock, NC



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 23:11:40 -0400
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>
Subject: Lifting converted-keg kettles

>From: "Donald D. Lake" <dake at gdi.net>
?Subject: Lifting converted-keg kettles

>With 5 gallon batches, the weight was testing my limits.  I am hoping
>someone has come up with a  technique so that two people can lift that
>red-hot kettle, safely.
>

Don- 

I'm rather surprised that Jack Schmidling or Dan Listerman haven't got an
Easy-Keg-Krane
or Phil's Keg Phlier or similar device.

Bob


Bob Sheck

bsheck, me-sheck, abednigo! Greenville, NC email:bsheck at skantech.net or see
us at:
http://www.skantech.net/bsheck/


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:39:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Jackson <stvjackson at yahoo.com>
Subject: Indiana homebrew legalization (of sorts)

As I've posted here on a couple of occasions, Indiana homebrewers have
been trying for the last three years to clarify several points of
Indiana law pertaining to homebrewing. Under current law, it is legal
in Indiana to make one's own beer or wine at home, but it is not legal
to remove the beverage from the premisis.

As of July 1, that will change. Today (May 11), Gov. Frank O'Bannon
signed into law House Enrolled Act 1104. The bill clarifies that
homemade beer and wine can be taken taken to locations other than the
home in which it was made for educational, evaluational or testing
purposes. In short, this makes homebrew club meetings legal, as well as
competitions.

The bill also allows licensed establishments (pubs, restaurants,
brewpubs, breweries and wineries) to allow homemade beer or wine to be
brought onto the premisis for the above stated reasons. I know of at
least a couple pubs/restaurants/brewpubs in the Indianapolis area that
have wanted to host FBI meetings but could not for fear of losing their
liquor license. I'm sure the same thing has happened in other parts of
the state.

The law goes into effect July 1.

A couple people deserve thanks for making this possible. The first is
State Rep. Brian Hasler (D-Evansville), who has carried the homebrew
language for the last three sessions. He deserves credit for that, as
well as for protecting the homebrew language in HEA 1104 this year.
(While language regarding youth tobacco use was included in the bill,
he fought off attempts to add other alcohol-related language that could
have affected the bill's chances for passage.) Also, fellow HBD'er and
FBI'er Paul Edwards deserves credit for getting the legal effort under
way, notifying homebrewers throughout the state and testifying at
committee hearings.

Thanks also goes to the many, many homebrewers who emailed or called or
wrote the legislators encouraging them to vote for this bill. Every
communication did help our cause.

 -Steve in Indianapolis
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:42:24 -0700
From: Bryan Gros <bryang at xeaglex.com>
Subject: laws

When I moved to Nashville in 96, most people I talked to said that they
thought homebrewing was mostly legal since it wasn't strictly prohibited.
The Common Wisdom

After looking into the laws, I found that there was a law which made
"home production of alcohol" illegal. Of couse, it was mostly aimed
at moonshine, but it was general enough to cover beer and wine as well.
There was an addition added making home winemaking legal.

Several people contacted the legislator that sponsored the wine
bill and got a homebrew exception pushed through. An interesting
process to observe...

*******
"Stephen Alexander" wrote:
>
>Cutting Sanke tops with a Dremel !! Ron LaBorde either has access to the
>thinnest  Sanke's or the most powerful Dremel I've ever heard of.

Steve: it's not the torque, it's the RPMs :-)

  - Bryan

Bryan Gros
Oakland CA
gros at bigfoot.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:05:18 -0700
From: Troy Hager <thager at bsd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Prague

Alan and Jim write about experiences in Prague. I was there for a week in
'95 and absolutely loved it. It is the most beautiful gothic/dark city I
have ever seen. The bridges over the river, the castle on the hill, it all
brings back great memories. Be sure to check out the bridges after dark to
see many musicians and meet a lot of interesting people.

We also spent time in the famous U Flecka pub that Jim describes, and found
it nice but *very* touristy. The beer was indeed excellent, but extremely
expensive compared to the other pubs we drank at.

I suggest you drop into some of the less frequented side-ally pubs that are
very plentiful and you will find the beer superb and the prices cheap! The
fresh PU on tap is absolutly a treat! We often went to the markets and
bought large bottles (about 20 oz or so) of excellent beer for what was
about 30 cents apiece US if I remember right - a beer lovers heaven.

Have a great time!


 -Troy 




Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:07:26 -0500
From: "Rob" <brewmasters at texasbrew.com>
Subject: Colorful Wits

I'm not a Wit lover and I only make them for my sister when she visits from
Chicago.That is until I made my latest batch. What I don't like about the
Wheat beers in general is the flavor especially with the Weihenstephan
yeast. That is why I wanted to blend a pretty neutral yeast. The results
turned out great and this is going to be one of my regular beers (if not my
main beer) My Question is best if you see the beer in the secondary
fermenters. http://www.texasbrew.com/wit.html I was wondering why the yeast
would make such a large difference in colors. And why would this believe it
or not one of my clearest beers? I did let them sit in the secondary for
around 3 weeks but there is hardly any chill haze to it. TIA for any help.

Rob in West Texas.


Brew Masters
426 Butternut
Abilene, TX 79602
1-915-677-1233
1-888-284-2039
savebig at texasbrew.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:09:48 EDT
From: JPullum127 at aol.com
Subject: keg conversion

thanks for all the replies but i guess i didn't make clear what i wanted. i 
can handle getting the top cut out but i would like some ideas for a drain 
system that will leave most of the break and hops pellets residue and drain 
most(all) of the beer. once again thanks for the help  marc


Return to table of contents

---