---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Subject: dead cat bounce .../uric acid vs. urea ("Stephen Alexander")
  Slavic stuff ("Dr. Pivo")
  Pivo's Questions Answered (Secret Squirrel)
  dremel/laws ("Stephen Alexander")
  Re:  Private email vs. HBD posts ("Fred L. Johnson")
  Confusion Reigning ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Of cattales and cattails (pbabcock)
  the kraeusen that won't go away - Wyeast 3068 (BreslerHS)
  Re: epsom salts for hops (BreslerHS)
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  Mandarin and PinYin ("Gregg Soh")
  Barley Wine priming (John Herman)
  All Grain Disasters ("Scott Moore")
  Re: Oat Malt Question (Jeff Renner)
  Quotes/Specialities (Eric.Fouch)
  Sparge technique/Autoclave-resistant lifeforms ("C and K")
  magnetic stirrers (Domenick Venezia)
  legal labia/krausening/diacetyl in pFramboise ("David Kerr")
  HERMS Piping ("Dan Schultz")
  piece of tail (kathy/jim)
  hops/spontaneous generation/autoclaving (Jim Liddil)
  Classic American Pilsner results (Greg Remake)
  seriousness (John Wilkinson)
  doc pivo's krausen and beer review ("Bayer, Mark A")


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

2000 MCAB Qualifiers: Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99
(http://burp.org/SoFB99); Oregon Homebrew Festival 5/22/99
(http://www.mtsw.com/hotv/fest.html); Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99
(http://www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:15:07 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Subject: dead cat bounce .../uric acid vs. urea

Anton Verhulst writes ...

>Uric acid from a cat peeing in your open fermentor?  Probably not.
>Every one knows that when mammals metabolize proteins, the waste product
>is urea and not uric acid.

Woe to the nitpicker who picks the wrong nit.

Most mammalian nitrogen extretion is as urea, as Anton states, *BUT* Uric
acid is in mammalian urine is the metabolic product of the purines
(adenosine and guanine for example) from DNA/RNA not proteins.  An
interesting exception is that Dalmations excrete most of their nitrogen as
uric acid - which may explain why they burn the grass !  Are you sure it
wasn't the neighbors Dalmation peeing in the fermentor ?  Anyone know the
critical centrifugal force for a Dalmation ?

Actually cat metabolism has some odd features too,but I don't know the
details.

I'd cite a references, but then Dr.Pivo would be on my case.

 -S





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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 23:22:12 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: Slavic stuff

There has been some discussion of slavic toasts, and the relation
between the languages (might mention that it is "pivo" from the Bombded
Balkans in the south to Poland in the North and all the way East to
Siberia... nice to have some easy words to learn if you have my simple
sort of perverse interests.... now let's take an easy step between
"pivo" and "pee-joe".... gosh, I'd hate to think I'd discovered
something here.... better talk to a linguist, I'm sure "dave" will be
back soon):

Volker wrote:

> In Russian language - on the other hand - you're always able to start a long 
> discussion, wether it's "na zdrowie" or "za zdrowie" - the difference is "for 
> the health" or "to the health". Never met two Russians, who had the same 
> opinion, which toast is more convenient...

and just to add to the mirre' (sp. or perhaps not even an English word?,
sort of like "frenzy", or "collage"?), in Czech (no "hats" over the
letters, and I am a terrible speller)....

Na zdravi (or "to health") or, Na drazi ("to the train station"), which
I suddenly realize is not relevant at all..... except that it rarely
fails to raise a chuckle when I'm "slaving" a "cheers" with that
variant.

Dr. Pivo (the Slavs just LOVE that name, even if "the burley doctor",
don't)

PS I must admit I am being a bit "silly" of late.  I just can't help
myself.  It seems like suddenly a lot of peole are posting some "fun"
and "interesting" stuff.... kind of like making, or drinking beer.


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Date: 13 May 1999 21:41:38 -0000
From: Secret Squirrel <secret_squirrel at nym.alias.net>
Subject: Pivo's Questions Answered

As I pointed out in my recent response to Dave Burley, that one and
this are my last on this subject.  Page down now if you don't give
a rat's about Chinese.

Dr. Pivo recently wrote:

>I was quite certain that the PinYin spelling was "Beijing" (third tone, first
>tone) and the same with the "southerly capitol" "Nanjing".

100% correct.

>Have they changed it?  I lived there '86 and '88, perhaps it's been changed.

I'm not sure.  To be honest, I've heard "Zhing" so much recently, I convinced
myself while writing my response to Dave that "Zhing" has been the correct 
spelling all along, but that's not the case.  Maybe it's just Ted Koppel, 
like Dave, fooling with the sound. 

>In Beijing itself, I'd put Wu Xin (five stars) and "Beijing white" at the top.

I had a Wu Xing Pi Jiu ("official beer for state banquets") in a Chinese
restaurant on Mother's Day.  I liked it so much, I had another.  Refreshing,
with some malt character.

>Is this (Guo Yu) not referred to as "Po tong hua" anymore?

Pu Tung Hua means the "common speech".  I always took it to mean ordinary
speech as opposed to scholarly speech.  Guo Yu (national language) is a
communist phrase, I believe, created to foster (communist) nationalism.
My teachers (staunch anti-communists) seemed to regard the phrase
with a certain degree of contempt.

>Ke i ge wo lai y ge Pi jiuma?

I think you meant "Keyi gei wo lai yige pijiu ma?"

No, I can't bring you a beer, because you insist on hiding behind that
insidious pseudonym!  Hope to drink one with you some day, though!






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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:15:08 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: dremel/laws

I have been duly chastised for doubting the power of the tiny dremel.
Thanks for the technique detail - I will try this.
- --
Spencer Thomas pointed out in private email that the AHA web site has a much
less rabid statement the legality issue than was posted here. It states that
HomeBrewing is not specifically recognized in Ohio law, not that is
prohibited which is false.  To be fair Ohio "beer"  law appears to my
untrained eye to apply only to beer for sale, but their definition of "sale"
includes "gifts" (huh?) and so most HBers appear to be in violation of the
code.  How the BOPs get around some of these regulations is a mystery to me.
The law itself is astonishing to read.  What category of idiocy (or is it
greed?) is needed in order to create such a convoluted complex and
contradictory set of rules which in total appear to impose no purposeful
order.?

Now  I think I'll get some big nasty tattoos and shave my head - an
unrehabilitated criminal.

Steve





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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 07:39:21 -0400
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re:  Private email vs. HBD posts

Phil Yates posted to HBD a tongue-in-cheek description of how a cat had 
urinated or otherwise contaminated his beer and how Phil attacked the cat
for this incident (details not important).  That the story was not entirely
true was not obvious to Dave Humes, who felt it necessary to privately
respond to Phil's post, reprimanding him for abusing the cat (details not
important).  Phil then criticized Dave publicly on the HBD for not posting
his response publicly saying, "But since when did you become the self
appointed Chairman of the HBD, did I miss something somewhere?" and "But
criticise me here in front of everyone! That way if someone doesn't agree
with you they might like to tell you so."

I will not discuss the issue of cat abuse or the original post.  Rather, I
would like to comment on what, in my opinion, is one clear example of what
should and what should not be posted to the HBD.  I wish to come to Dave
Humes defense here.  Dave had a PERSONAL problem with Phil that was
unrelated to brewing.  Dave realized that the matter was simply between him
and the cat abuser concerning the humane treatment of animals--not brewing.
No one else on the HBD needed to hear what Dave had to say to Phil, as it
certainly was not related to brewing and Dave knew that.  Dave merely
refrained from contributing to the off-subject posts and took his issue with
Phil outside.  Then he gets PUBLICLY attacked by Phil for not bringing their
personal differences out in public for all to witness.

Shame on you, Phil!  Dave appears to be the gentleman here.  He took this
personal issue "outside the bar" to settle this with you. Had he posted it
publicly, you might have had reason to accuse him of speaking for the HBD.
However, it appears to be you who wish to make this a HBD issue.  Rather
than settling this offline, you are dragging your personal fight back inside
and seem to be trying to find support from your buddies by changing the
subject to a personal attack on Dave's motives. You are turning this
otherwise respectible, friendly  establishment (the HBD) into a dive where
eventually only the riff-raff will patronize.  (And all of this over an
apparent simple misunderstanding by Dave!)

Since some folks in this place simply refuse to excercise restraint on their
public behavior, perhaps it is time that the HBD hired a bouncer.
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA


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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:21:34 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Confusion Reigning

     Firstly, thanks Dave Humes for stating your case. At least we are now
both out in the open. That's more than I can say about some who have been
moving amongst us in a most surreptitious fashion. The only connection
between cats urine and beer that I can think of occurs in Mexico. Here the
cats don't muck about with open fermenters. Straight into the bottles it
goes (don't ask me how they manage that) and straight to the public for sale
(chilled first of course)! And served with a lemon, people go mad over it!
There are some very wealthy cats in Mexico! But this of course has nothing
to do with the dedicated homebrewer who has scant regard for trying to make
popular beer. Hell, there are enough folks about here now willing to drain
my kegs without me asking the neighbour's cat to offer them encouragement.
On that note I think we should let sleeping dogs lie (Oh no, here comes
another round of animal tails, sorry, I meant "tales").
      What's troubling me at the moment is this. With Mr Burley away on
holiday at present, just who is writing Dr Pivo's posts! We now know they
must both be away somewhere together, probably arguing between themselves
over a beer in a pub in Tasmania, where their appearance and odd behaviour
would not rouse attention. So who else is not owning up in this HBD? Piwo
Burley has already confessed to me as not being himself of late, that's okay
Piwo, for heavens sake stop that sobbing and get a grip on yourself.
      I have received an anonymous note, and here in may be the clue.
      It was a simple note, a sad note, a note from a soul in need of help.
      It read:    Phil,
                            I've cut out drinking.
                            I've cut out smoking
                            And now I'm cutting out paper dolls!

      Jill, If this is some sort of payback for me not putting the cat out
last night I'm going to be most annoyed.

P.S.  Please, no private emails from anyone who has already gone mad and
finds this offensive!!!
          Also, emails from Tasmania will not be deemed valid.





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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 21:49:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: Of cattales and cattails 

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Everyone is dancing about and rattling sabres regardings cats and the
sanctity of private e-mail. Let me say this about that:

   o Dave saw fit to cc the Janitors in his note to Phil. He brought 
     the public response upon himself since he technically shared his
     point of view beyond the two of them.
   o The HBD will not hire bouncers. 
   o The Janitors will not exclude posts that are even remotely related
     to beer that do not transgress against certain social norms (PG
     rating, for the most part. The cat stories are PG. The "Fred"
     stories dance pretty close to the edge). Says so in our policy,
     doesn't it? Reinforced by the brewhaha resulting from the <ulp>
     Clinitest incident, too.
 
So, everyone please stand down from defcon 3. There will be no strike. And
there will be no social engineering on the HBD. Govern yourselves but,
please don't defer to an assumed "higher power". That, we ain't...

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."




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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:13:54 EDT
From: BreslerHS at aol.com
Subject: the kraeusen that won't go away - Wyeast 3068

A question for those of you with experience with Weihenstephan yeast...

I have an all-grain Hefe-W going.  Roughly 50/50 wheat malt/pale+pils.  
Pitched the dregs from a 3 quart starter into aerated (aquarium pump & 
air-stone for 20 minutes) cooled wort.  It started quickly and fermented 
actively at 63-66degF, huge kraeusen, some blowoff, then subsided mostly.  
Transferred it to a secondary after a week.  Some renewed fermentation after 
transfer, and about an inch of thick top fermenting yeast reappeared on the 
surface and it is just sitting there.  Air lock activity is practically nil, 
but that yeast looks as though it's there to stay.  It looks solid enough to 
walk on.  

What's going on here?  I've never seen yeast hang on like that before.  Yeast 
usually drops out after the ferment is over, but this one is staying put.  I 
was planning to transfer it to the keg as soon as most of the yeast dropped.  
I know some will stay in suspension (I want it to for a Hefe), but this is 
ridiculous.  

This is my first experience with this yeast.  So, what now?  How long do I 
wait for this mat to sink? Or is there something else I must do to sink it?  
Or what?

TIA,
Herb
Bexley, OH


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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:13:49 EDT
From: BreslerHS at aol.com
Subject: Re: epsom salts for hops

In HBD #3028 Paul Shick asked about "using Epsom salts for hop plants."

Yes, Paul, you can use Epsom salts to "green up" your hop plants (houseplants 
sometimes can benefit from a dose, too) if they are indeed 
magnesium-deficient.  I have successfully used Epsom salts for other kinds of 
plants, though never for my hops.  The center of the chlorophyl molecule is a 
magnesium ion, so you can see how important magnesium is for green plants.  
Other causes of yellowing are also common, like too little sunlight, for 
example. 

A little Epsom salt is relatively harmless though, and it might solve your 
problem.  About a teaspoon per mound should do it.  Sprinkle it around the 
base of the plants and it will dissolve as it rains or as you water.  You can 
reapply about once a month for plants in the ground, twice a year for potted 
plants.  (If your potted plants seem like they need more than that to stay 
green, there's likely another cause.  You probably should give them more 
light and/or re-pot with nutrient-rich soil.)  

Good luck,
Herb
Bexley, OH
where the hops are already about 7 feet tall
just down I-71 from Cleveland Heights


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Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 23:26:44 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

			The Jethro Gump Report

Phoenix ....The IBS Craft Brewers Convention
	An incredible event.....combined with the Big Brew '99, Jethro was
impressed with the quality of the presentations, and the quality of the
Trade Show.....of notable mention to the homebrewing community were a few
exhibitors....

	Mei-Shou Trading Co, Ltd.....1-22-15 Minami Aoyoama, Minatoku, Tokyo,
Japan, 107-0062. e-mail  hidetake at twics.com
	These folks have come out with the first, to my knowledge, small keg side
CO2 dispense unit that utilizes a CO2 cartridge, as a part of a keg faucet
that attaches to the valve of a keg, Sankey or otherwise....
	I know that other company's, such as Spartanburg, have been working in this
direction, but this company is the first to display one....Very Handy!

	Puterbaugh Hop Farms......686 Green Valley Road, Mabton, Washington,
98935....These folks had an amazing product that made me want to go..."Duh!"
	Not even going into their hops and flowers soaps, nor their hop teas, I was
stunned by their "Pickled Hop Shoots." They send crews out to cut off new
shoots, averaging 4-6 inches long, and they are pickled in glass jars with
other spices....Incredible! I had many...wrapped around cheeses, and
crackers.....and many on their own.....
	This will be a pub foodstuff, on appetizers lists......Soon!
	I intend to order some from them for my own parties  at  home.....

	Automatic Equipment Company....
	These folks, PO Box P, Prender, Ne, 68047, a privately held farm equipment
oriented concern, manufacture a mill that I have used in the past,  at  LABCO,
and it is the mill I will specify for any future brewing ops that I have the
ability to order equipment for....
	But, they have come out with a homebrewer oriented mill that beats the
band! Elegant in construction, with seven detents for gap spacing....This
one was the most impressive mill I have seen for the HB market, to date....
	Lokk for it in the future,  at  a HB shop near you!

	Apart from spending time with some of the industry's finest, like Chuck
Magerl, Free State; Michael Jackson; Tomme Arthur, Pizza Port; Gary Galanis,
Brewers Association of America; Mary Thompson, MBAA: Kelly Kuehl from
Schreier; the whole Real Beer Page crew, especially Silva and Hieronymus,
Mike Urseth, MidWest Beer Notes; Peter Reid from MBA, and the Siebel
Institutes' Bill Siebel, Dave Radzanowski, Joe Power, Chris Bird; BT's crew,
Stephen Mallory, Deb Jolda, and Ed Dowd.....
	But the folks you don't expect, like Chris Black from Denver, and a long
time supporter of brewers was a delight to see!
	I could go on forever, but have to mention a few special folks .....I
actually met a fella that flew for the Luftwaffe, post WWII, that not only
knew where I was born, Fuerstenfeldbruck, Germany, but had also first
trained in the 60's on the T-33 out of that field, where my now deceased Dad
had been training NATO pilots on that jet when I was first intro'd ! Small
world, eh?
	I also had a habit, years ago, of skydiving off a field in Wilton, NSW, OZ,
and gathering  at  a local pub, the King George, in Picton....
	Well, I met the owner, Geoff Scharer, who runs what I understand to be one
of the few all grain BP's in OZ,  at  that same pub! I owe him, as he paid for
a shared cab ride one night....but he still doesn't believe that there is a
T-shirt with his face on it!!! (Andy Walsh...you out there?)

	It's a Small World, After All!

North Florida Brewers' League....
	I have to give thanks for the warm reception I received from the NFBL, on
my recent trip down to my first brew club......
	You folks were top notch, and I appreciate your kindnesses.....Sarah
Bridegroom and John Larsen, owner of the Homebrew Den, exemplified
courtesy...Ned Roberts, Head Brewer for the Buckhead was most gracious......
	Thanks for the invitation....

Ames Brewers' League....
	The Ames Brewers' League, recently formed, elected Officers  at  it's last
meeting, May 11th, 1999.
	President- Jeff Kenton
	VP- Scott Chadwick
	Sec/Treasurer- Gary Bridges.

	BTW, both the NFBL, and the ABL owe a debt of gratitude to many suppliers,
but most especially to the Institute For Brewing Studies, and their
Director, David Edgar, for his donation of IBS Tap Handles for raffling  at 
the club meetings........As per his wishes, donations to charity will be
made from the proceeds of each raffle...Thanks, Mr. Edgar!

Lallemand Yeasts....
	As documented in the JG Report, Lallemand expects to release new strains of
dry yeast to the brewing world.....
	And while negotiations continue, the fact is that certain posters appeared
 at  the CBC in Phoenix......
	While I can't promise when these strains will be soon available to the home
brewing world, I can tell you what appeared on the posters....
	Within 2 months, all being equal.....The Siebel American Ale strain will be
on the market....
	The other posters stated..."Weihenstephan Hefebank....Weizen Beer Yeast;"
"Heriot Watt...Keltic Ale Yeast;" "Weihenstephan Hefebank W120...Lager
Yeast."
	Time for release? I am waiting as eagerly as the rest of you.....
	The brand name will be "OmegAlpha."

Board of Advisors Campaign...
	I was interested to hear that a member of the current BoA, AHA, found it
curious that none of the nominees for the BoA post had been campaigning for
that slot.....
	I had considered that thought in the past, but honestly felt that any
campaign I could possibly run, had in fact been done over the last many
years...and as such .....what was there to do?

	Well, I am campaigning! I hope that you do notice that my Web Page Campaign
appears on perhaps the last day before postmarks are closed for votes...and
if you visit my campaign web site, I hope you will appreciate a couple of
things...
	1st...the audio is not for children...
	2nd....The site is a parody...and not intended to infringe on any
copyrights...
	3rd....This site was put together as the efforts of many folks....And I
thank you all...
	Finally....It's a joke! At least on me.......!
	http://www.toltbbs.com/~djohnson/gump/votegump.html

MBAA......
	Jethro sadly announces that Connie Hanner, Secretary for the MBAA, and more
than that, a personal encouragement to Jethro in the past, in her disdain
for homebrewers and small craft brewers, has finally had her resignation
accepted by that organization....
	If it weren't for Connie, I would have never driven hours, nor stayed in
second rate hotels to attend MBAA conventions....
	And I would have been the loser, for they were great, as were the bulk of
the folks attending....

MBAA Practical Brewer...
	The new edition is out!!!! The new edition of "The Practical Brewer" sells
for 130 or 135 USD, I believe, and 80 USD for members of the MBAA...
	Fully an half inch thicker than the last edition, this edition has a wealth
of info relating directly to the craft brewing industry.....

MBAA Treachery....
	Sad to report....Apparently there has been some skullduggery  at  the MBAA...
	The insurance carrier is prepared,  at  last note, to carry a 97K$ loss on
some embezzlement from the offices of the MBAA....The provable loss....
	Current thoughts on the matter seem to go as high as 158K$, but apparently
not all documents still exist.....
	It must be a different kind of person that steals from brewers...

Cheers!
Jethro (I Hope The Cuffs Match Your Dress) Gump

Rob Moline
brewer at isunet.net

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"



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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 02:35:04 PDT
From: "Gregg Soh" <greggos at hotmail.com>
Subject: Mandarin and PinYin

Hi all,

This may be a little late in coming, but to set the record straight (just in 
case), 'secret sqiurrel' is wrong when he says "bei zhing" when it is really 
"beijing" in pinyin form. The "Zh" sound is very different from the "j" and 
shouldn't be confused. However, although Mandarin is considered the national 
language, rightly called "Guo Yu", the pinyin form is not widely used there 
as far as I know.

Beer (Pijiu - pronounced 'peeh tzee-oh' much like the 'eo' in Oreo)

There are many other dialects too, which might use a 'b' sound as opposed to 
the 'p' sound.

As to Dr Pivo's question:
Keyi geiwo yi bei pijiu ma?
(Could you give me a glass of beer?)
I'll say, dangran keyi!
(Definitely!)


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 07:14:06 -0500
From: John Herman <johnvic at earthlink.net>
Subject: Barley Wine priming

My1st Barley Wine is ready to bottle.  It is a small batch just shy of 2
gal.  My plan is to add some fresh yeast and use extract instead of corn
suger.  How much extract is appropriate?  Should I prepare a yeast
starter, let it settle a bit and use that?  If so, how do I guage how
much suger is left in the extract for carbonating?

Thanks,

John Herman



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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 08:47:03 -0400
From: "Scott Moore" <smoore at koyousa.com>
Subject: All Grain Disasters

I recently switched to all grain after 5 years of extract brewing to gain
more control and (hopefully) improve my beer.  My last two batches have been
undrinkable and I am at a loss to explain it.

My first batch was a Scotch Ale which turned out fairly well but the yeast
pooped out too soon and left it too sweet.  I decided to improve my
techniques so I bought an oxygen tank and airstone and decided to keep my
mash temperature down.  On my next batch I went for a Mai Bock with German
Pils and Munich malt.  I did a 20 min 135 F protein rest and tried to infuse
to 154 F.  After filling my 10 gal Gott to the rim with water (not by
choice) I was only at 149 F so I was concerned that I might be in trouble.
I also decided to use Danstar Nottingham since I didn't have time for a big
enough starter.  Well, even with the addition of dextrin powder at bottling
what I am left with is flat, headless, thin (but very alcoholic), beer that
reeks of cooking sherry.

I learned some lessons from that batch and decided to try an Alt with mostly
German Munich and some Marris Otter Pale and dextrin malt. I used a single
step infusion mash and was very careful about stirring and run off to keep
HSA down.  I held the temperature at 154 F until conversion and fermented
with Wyeast 1338.  I also used FWH for my flavor hops (I know, not in an
Alt, but I love hop flavor in my beers) and the aroma and flavor going into
the fermentor was heavenly.  When racking to secondary I tasted it and now
it has no hop aroma or flavor, just that sherry aroma and a bitter
aftertaste.  Where is the maltiness?  I only hopped to 32 IBUs with an OG of
1.061 so it should be more balanced.  My water profile is not that different
from most of the targets that I looked at and I used calcium chloride for
the adjustments.  I batch sparged so I don't think it's over sparging.
Please help me before I switch back to extract.

Scott Moore
Medina, Ohio

If I wanted sherry I would have bought grapes....



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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 09:07:53 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Oat Malt Question

In HBD 3030, part of my post read:

>I made a 1.050 brown ale/strong mild and used 10%.  For my Domesday Ale, a
>1.096, unhopped, uncarbonated recreation of a midieval ale, I used 50% -
>home malt stout uses 22%.  Wadsworth's Oat Malt Ale ( a "wine red hue")
>uses 11% with another 6% unmalted pinhead oats.  I'm slowly going through
>the book looking for other beers made with it.

which doesn't make a whole lot of sense.  What I wrote before evidently
hitting a delete key somehow in the middle of this paragraph was:

I made a 1.050 brown ale/strong mild and used 10%.  For my Domesday Ale, a
1.096, unhopped, uncarbonated recreation of a midieval ale, I used 50% -
home malted oats in this case.  According to the CAMRA Real Ale Almanac,
Maclay's Oat Malt stout uses 22%.  Wadsworth's Oat Malt Ale ( a "wine red
hue") uses 11% with another 6% unmalted pinhead oats.  I'm slowly going
through the book looking for other beers made with it.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:17:00 -0400
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Quotes/Specialities

Hey Kelly-
You forgot one:

"Rehab is for quitters...."

Anon-
Kelly :)

How about:

(insert slur) "I'm not an alcoholic:  Alcoholics go to those meetings."
 -Unknown

Jesse Stricker says:

	Sorry about the length of this, and for taking a joke too
seriously.  It's not often I get to talk about my specialty :)

	Jesse

Not at all, Jesse.  Fred is just chomping at the bit to have someone mention
re-wiring American made electric "pleasure toys" for use on Australian 415
volt systems.
					

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery and Ecclectic Electrics	
Kentwood MI



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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 07:23:19 -0700
From: "C and K" <Cuckold at cornerpub.com>
Subject: Sparge technique/Autoclave-resistant lifeforms

Thanks to those who recently posted on sparging technique.  My question is
fairly simple.  When you begin the sparge, is it better to have the sparge
water completely covering the grains?  I am learning using a continious (or
running) sparge.  One post mentioned how this method allows better
dilution, and helps to push the runnings out as well.  

Autoclave-resistant lifeforms:
How about that bacteria NASA found?  Apparently, they picked up some
equipment on the moon (from a previous mission) brought it back to earth
and the equipment had live bacteria on it!  

Thanks
Scott
Richland, Wa.
Seldom correct...but never without doubt


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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 07:56:29 -0700
From: Domenick Venezia <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: magnetic stirrers

From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us> 

>I've been thinking of getting a magnetic stir plate and was wondering
>what length/shape stir bar I should get. Would 1" be okay? There are X
>shaped ones and straight ones. Any advantage of one over the other?  
>Also, what speed should they be operated at? They seem to have variable
>speed from 100 to 1000 rpm's. TIA

Randy,

Get more than one stir bar.  Get at least a big one and a little one.
Something like a 2" and a 1" bar.  I have no idea what the advantage, if
there is one, of an 'X' over a '|'.  Maybe it's like cat food, there is no
functional difference except in the mind of the consumer.  (BTW - Let me
state definitively and for the record, "I have never intentionally harmed
a cat".  Though, I've fantasized about it at times while gardening - think
about it).

Gentle stirring is all that is needed to get yeast circulating.  Vigorous
stirring can be used to aerate starter wort.  On the other hand I have 3
stirrer/hotplates (at least one works) and never use any of them. Before
you spend the money on a stirrer I suggest you have a specific use for it.  
The bucks may be better spent on another piece of gear, like a good
counterflow chiller.  On the other hand (there's alway an OTOH), if you
are into making your own plate or slant media, a stirrer/hotplate is a
useful piece of equipment. 

In the lab stirrers are used to grow yeast and bacteria aerobically.  In
the old days the mouth of the flask was plugged with sterile cotton and
the culture gently stirred.  Now there are long mouth covers that prevent
anything from falling into the flask but do not seal it from the air.  
Once the fermentation starts generating a lot of CO2 it's hard to say how
much additional air gets in.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax 
demonick at zgi dot com



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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:52:08 -0400
From: "David Kerr" <dkerr at semc.org>
Subject: legal labia/krausening/diacetyl in pFramboise

Brett reports on labeling, comments on a phone call received:

>(a lawyer too, wish I could get MY lawyer to pick-up a phone, I
>wonder if that call was bilabial).

<insert sophomoric George Carlin "bilabial fricative" joke here>
- ------
Mark Bayer and Dr. Pivo discuss krausening - isn't this Dave Burley's
pet (no felines involved) priming method?  Is there some common ground
here?  Can't we all just .. get along?
- ------
Not to resurrect the now-dormant diacetyl thread, but I had asked a
question some time back regarding possible mouthfeel characteristics
of high diacetyl levels - my pFramboise has an almost oily texture
(not unpleasant, just unusual).  I may have a high flavor threshold
for diacetyl, (I've never detected it in the several PU samples I've
had), and it'd have a hard time coming through all of the Brett.,
Pedio. and raspberry anyway, but I'm wondering if Pedio. stewing for
2+ years, throwing a bunch of diacetyl, might not have contributed
this characteristic?  It's so pronounced that, well, you can't swing a
cat without hitting it...

Dave Kerr - Needham, MA



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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 08:17:52 -0700
From: "Dan Schultz" <dschultz at primenet.com>
Subject: HERMS Piping

BD questioned:

>2.  in perusing a number of web pages where folks have put details of their
>own systems, i've noted the popularity of making a sight glass out of
plastic.
>most of these pages are not new; i'd like to know how the plastic has stood
>the test of time, particularly for the boiling kettle . . .

Plastics that I think would be suitable for a sight glass include the family
of clear (some tininted) and those that are not clear but are translucent
enough to see the fluid level through.  The clear family of thermoplastics
must be based on amorphous grades.

Polycarbonate would not have the temerpature resistance for boil temps. I
would recommend using polysulfone (PSu),  polyethersulfone (PES) or
polyetherimide (PEI or GE's Ultem). I too am looking ot add a plastic sight
glass but have not been able to find these grades in tubing form.
Polycarbonate would probably work if it were supported by a metal jacket of
some sort.

In the translucent grades, I think Teflon (PTFE) would work fine. It is
definitely going to handle the temps. It is also readily available.

>3...there appears to be a
>real split among the people that have constructed various rims systems on
how
>to get the various liquids here and there.  some folks use plastic tubing,
>others use copper pipe.  none of the pages i've seen has featured a
discussion
>of why the brewer chose the method they chose.  i'd like to hear the
>advantages/disadvantages of each method.

I am in the midst of building my HERMS system and would like to hear
additional opinions as well. My thoughts include hard piping (SS or copper)
to the pump and then anything after the pump.

Since the pump is sensitive to cavitation and lack of fluids, hard piping
will not collapse at any temp. Also, what little vacuum the pump pulls, less
will be lost by the negligible deflection of a rigid piping system. This
should give better fluid feed to the pump.

Post-pump tubing is not subject to the above requirements. I won't be using
copper pipe unless I thoroughly insulate it as it will be a major source of
heat loss to the wort. SS has lower thermal conductivity (I think on the
order of 25% of copper's) and would be more suitable here. Flex tubing is
even better but I wory about my burners and hot surfaces melting this
tubing.

I am definitely interested in additional opinions.

Burp,
 -Dan



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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:42:25 -0400
From: kathy/jim <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: piece of tail

Ah the tail seperation discussion; as a youngster in a Kansas farm house
in the 1940's, I spied a rat tail hanging out a rat hole in the utility
room of our house.  Quietly taking a pair of pliers, I grasp the tail
firmly at the base and held on tight.  Alas, there was a scurry of feet
on the inside of the wall, resulting in the major portion of the tail
and a 4-6" of white something being  extracted from the rat.

Chagrinned that I'd not captured the rat, I nevertheless took my trophy
into the living room to show my mother who at that moment was proudly
entertaining the neighborhood women.  She was not pleased.  

Years later, they caught a tailless rat in a trap.

On this experience I predict the cat will survive for the near term.  So
will the "tail grasper" but I definitely don't recommend the act of
"show and tell"  to a room of visiting femmes.

Beer related?   Well, I'll go open a homebrew now.   

cheers, jim booth




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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 12:01:18 -0400
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at vms.arizona.edu>
Subject: hops/spontaneous generation/autoclaving

Somebody asked about hops.  I planted my rhizomes 2.5 weeks ago and they
are just now sending up shoots.

WRT temps and sanitizers etc. I have to recommend:

http://www.liddil.com/jliddil/brewres/cleaning.html

Alan Meeker asks:



>	 I have no idea what was in those bottles, but there was some kind of
> spore that was resistant to standard autoclaving conditions (we did use
> several different autoclaves while trying to sort this out, so it wasn't
> simply due to a single defective machine.)  At the time we assumed it
> was yeast spores (that yeast has spores was about all any of us knew
> about yeast at the time.)  After working with S.c. in the lab since
> then, I strongly doubt it was yeast.  But there was certainly something
> in at least that one batch of Miller that a standard autoclave just
> couldn't kill.
> 
> Allen W Senear
> Big Water Brewing
> Seattle
> - -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> OK I'd like to get to the bottom of this idea of "autoclave-resistant
> spores"  Is there any credible scientific evidence for the existance of
> ANY form of life (spore, virus, mycoplamsa, rodent, etc) that can resist
> autoclaving?? (sorry, no prions please)

Over the years I have seen many people who have never really been trained
on how to use AND test an autoclave for proper functioning.  do people
understand the theory and what the proper procedures are to obtain sterile
materials?  First lets start with proper testing.  The manufacturers
(steris for example) make various testing ampules.  These are usually a
ampule with a combination of sterothermophilus (sp?) and b. subtilis
spores.  Steris, for example also makes a tester that is special wrapped in
foam and has strips to indicate whether true steam penetration has occured.
These then need to be placed in the autoclave in a location such as the
middle of a bag of lab waste.  thus you are mimicing the actual conditions
that the autoclaved material is undergoing.  Likewise if large volumes of
liquid are being autoclaved a vessel of the same size is filled with water
and an ampule added and run in the same cycle.  Then one knows whether or
not things conditions for true sterilization were met.  These testing
devices meet AOAC standards and are used for stuff destined for surgical
use.  So if these conditions are met then it is highly unlikely that stuff
will survive.

Now wrt to steam penetration the fact is that steam is let into an
autoclave via gravity in most autoclaves.  Only surgical facilities
routinely can afford a vacuum unit and this still does little to aid things
according to technical people at Steris (the bought Amsco).  So the steam
flows into the autoclave.  With a vessel or tray it is likely that the
steam will not flow into it.  This is a well understood phenomenon and is
why people use wire or plastic open weave baskets to autoclave dry
material.  If steam does not penetrate an item then it is simple undergoing
dry heat sterilization.  

Wet heat is much more effective at killing microorganisms than is dry heat.
My block book is in a box still so I can't spew a bunch of
theory/reasoning.  So that is why it helps to add a milliliter or two of
water to bottles you bake in the oven.  but use distilled water so you
don't get salt deposits in the bottles  

But I want to remind folks that your equipment has to be clean prior to
sanitizing or whatever.  After all I can autoclave feces.

Nathan mention his pellicle returning.  Well did you have two vessels?
This looks like a totally uncontrolled experiment.  At your pellicle may
have returned anyway.  and it may be due simple to the act of adding oxygen
via adding the sugar solution.  None of my pellicles have risen from the
bottom, but then my 20 one gallons bottle are from sept 95 and the other
stuff is from early 97.  At least the movers didn't break anything or I'd
have one reeky mess.




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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 10:15:01 -0600
From: Greg Remake <gremake at gsbalum.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Classic American Pilsner results

Hello all,

No cats, secret identities, or chemical formulae here, just a favorable
review of a CAP I was inspired to brew by Jeff Renner's enthusiastic posts.
 The recipe is quite simple, although it departs a bit from the norm due to
my use of what I had available:

8 lbs. US 6-row
2 lbs. flaked maize
O.G. 1.048  at  75%
1/2 lb. Carapils
1/2 oz. Willamette homegrown (AA5%?) FWH
1 oz. Northern Brewer homegrown (AA8.5%?) 60 min.
1/2 oz. Northern Brewer homegrown (AA8.5%?) 30 min.
37 IBU (from Recipator)
1 tsp. Irish moss 20 min.
Wyeast 2206 Bavarian
FG 1.012
3/4 cup corn sugar at bottling

I added the Carapils since I had it laying around, and I figured it
couldn't hurt the head retention.  I used lactic acid to adjust the strike
water to pH 6 and sparge water to pH 5.5.  I followed Jeff's recommended
50C/60C/70C mash schedule with 30 minute rests, and mashed out at 170F for
10 minutes.  No problems sparging, and I collected 7 gallons which I boiled
down to 6 gallons, for 5.5 gallons in the primary and 5 gallons bottled.  

This was my first attempt using the split session approach, about which
I've posted earlier, where I mashed and sparged at night then boiled the
following morning.  Again, this really makes brewing easier to schedule,
and will be my SOP from now on.  

I soaked my first wort hops overnight, and I think the resulting hops
flavor is outstanding.  My hops choices are based on my homegrown inventory
for which I can't be sure of the AA%, so the selection may not be optimal
but is American as it gets.  Similarly, the 2206 Bavarian slurry came from
the secondary of a previous Maerzen, which may not be the best yeast for
the style but was what I had on hand.

Primary fermentation chugged along for about a month, which was longer than
I expected at 50F-55F, so my secondary was shortened to only two weeks due
to increasing ambient temperatures.  Nevertheless it was beautifully clear
and bright at bottling time, and after a couple weeks on the cellar floor
for carbonation, I lagered in my fridge for a month.

The result is a crisp, quenching brew with a clean hops flavor that reminds
me of sips my dad gave me as a kid from his Meister Brau returnables.
Plenty of malt character and flavor so that it's not whimpy, yet not too
strong for BudMillerCoors drinkers.  The only thing that's missing is more
hops aroma, as I used the aroma hops addition for the FWH.  It's very pale
at about 3 SRM with only a slight haze, and has a pure white head that
lasts to the bottom of the glass.  No way will this batch last through the
lawn mowing season!

Thanks for the idea, Jeff!

Brew more,

Greg



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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:24:02 -0500
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: seriousness

Some of us need to lighten up a bit.  After all, it is beer, not life and
death.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas


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Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 11:14:59 -0700
From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com>
Subject: doc pivo's krausen and beer review

collective homebrew conscience_

doc pivo wrote:

>YuQuanShan Pijiu 10P fruity, a little sweet. "fresh" taste. A little
>"Bayer" like in flavour, but a little bit strong "rice" taste.

what is the definition of a "bayer"-like flavor?  i assume this is a
reference to munich (or other south german) beer characteristics.

having a "built-in" beer style name has advantages and disadvantages.  i
think it pressured me to focus on lager brewing more, for fear of the odd
chance that i would, at some future point, have a real citizen of bavaria
drink my beer.

>Yu Die 12P: pukey, watery.

perhaps "lethal" would be an appropriate review of this one?


also, on the weissbier krausening...

>The Krauzen yeast you introduce, will dominate the style.

has anybody tried krausening a weissbier with a lager yeast gyle?  i hope
the action of the lager yeast won't "undo" any of the desirable weissbier
flavors created by the weissbier yeast.  my initial thought is that it
shouldn't, but i'm not sure how co2 scrubbing works, and if it can affect
phenolics.

i know that some german breweries use lager yeast in their bottled beers.
does anybody know if these beers have been krausened with the lager yeast,
or is this just a way for the breweries to get some stable, flocculant yeast
in the bottle so they can advertise the beer as "hefe-"?

brew hard,

mark bayer (yes, it's my real name, doc)
stlmo


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---