---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Michael Jackson ("St. Patrick's")
  first wort hopping ("Bayer, Mark A")
  Subject: RE: converting a keg to a boiling pot (Badger Roullett)
  DEADLINE EXTENDED-Cal. State Fair Comp (Robert Arguello)
  RE: Furry Projectiles In The Night (John Wilkinson)
  wheat yeast strains ("Anthony & Julie Brown")
  Krauzening A "Bayer" Krauzened Weiss. ("Dr. Pivo")
  SureScreens ("Jeff Beinhaur")
  Out In The Open ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Hop Bags - What's to Lose ? (ROATTW)" <ROATTW at UCMAIL.UC.EDU>
  Phils Phlier (ROATTW)" <ROATTW at UCMAIL.UC.EDU>
  R.E. "Dave Humes Assumes" (Dave Humes)
  RE: << The Best Drunk Quotes...Ever ("Kelly")
  AOB tax status (Jim Liddil)
  Decoction Profiles (Nathan Kanous)
  o2 in microbrews (Joe Rolfe)
  Labeling method summary . . . ("Brett A. Spivy")
  Nitrogen fixers (Jesse Stricker)
  SureScreen(tm) (Jack Schmidling)
  Re: Oat Malt Question (Jeff Renner)
  Bigfoot, Nessie, and Autoclave-resistant lifeforms (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  new dimensions in caca (Dave Sapsis)
  brewery questions (Brian K Dulisse)
  Beerhound in Beijing ("Dr. Pivo")
  Swinging Cats and good (or bad) manners ("Tim Green")
  Potassium Sorbate in Beer (Dan Listermann)
  magnetic stirrers (Randy Ricchi)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

2000 MCAB Qualifiers: Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99
(http://burp.org/SoFB99); Oregon Homebrew Festival 5/22/99
(http://www.mtsw.com/hotv/fest.html); Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99
(http://www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff)

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. 
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
  the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!

Contact brewery at hbd.org for information regarding the "Cat's Meow"

Back issues are available via:

  HTML from...
        http://hbd.org
  Anonymous ftp from...
	ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests
	ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer
  AFS users can find it under...
        /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

COPYRIGHT for the Digest as a collection is currently held by hbd.org 
  (Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen). Digests in their entirity CANNOT be 
  reprinted/reproduced without this entire header section unless 
  EXPRESS written permission has been obtained from hbd.org. Digests
  CANNOT be reprinted or reproduced in any format for redistribution
  unless said redistribution is at absolutely NO COST to the consumer.
COPYRIGHT for individual posts within each Digest is held by the
  author. Articles cannot be extracted from the Digest and
  reprinted/reproduced without the EXPRESS written permission of the 
  author. The author and HBD must be attributed as author and source in
  any such reprint/reproduction. (Note: QUOTING of items originally
  appearing in the Digest in a subsequent Digest is exempt from the
  above. Home brew clubs NOT associated with organizations having a
  commercial interest in beer or brewing may republish articles in their
  newsletters and/or websites provided that the author and HBD are
  attributed. ASKING first is still a great courtesy...)

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 20:10:16 -0500
From: "St. Patrick's" <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: Michael Jackson

Hope this makes it into the queue on time.

I'd like to invite everyone out tomorrow Saturday for our grand opening
with Michael Jackson.  Michael will conduct a tasting of Texas beers at 3.

 What was intended to be a rather small event has grown beyond
expectations.  There are an incredible 30 Texas breweries attending the
opening and serving free refreshments throughout the day.  This represents
about 3/4 of all Texas breweries and is easily the largest gathering of
Texas brewers ever.  Collectively I'm sure there will be over 100 different
Texas brewed beers available.

I leased 45 acres behind the warehouse and now have plenty of parking and
another large tent and in fact have tickets still available for the tasting
($15).  All homebrewers are welcome to come to the grand opening whether
they attend the Jackson tasting or not.  Michael will be available all day
to chat and sign books, particularly his latest Ultimate Beer.

Map is on our web page http://www.stpats.com

Best regards
Lynne O'Connor

St. Patrick's of Texas
Brewers Supply
http://www.stpats.com
stpats at bga.com
 512-989-9727
 512-989-8982 facsimile


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 11:15:47 -0700
From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com>
Subject: first wort hopping

collective homebrew conscience_

mark asked what first wort hopping was.

first wort hopping is a technique where hops are added to the kettle as the
wort is being run from lauter tun.

this would be a good topic for debate and side-by-side comparisons.  many
argue in favor of the fwh technique.

brew hard,

mark bayer
stlmo


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:36:42 -0700
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: Subject: RE: converting a keg to a boiling pot

From: Danny Johnson <shag at ipass.net>
Subject: RE: converting a keg to a boiling pot

| Later I was given a tip by Mike at American Brewmaster
| (http://www.americanbrewmaster.com/) that involved using the
| now detached sankey valve. The sankey valve could be removed
| from the 12" disk and then welded to the lid of a corny keg
| for those with the sankey tap systems.I did not pursue this
| project but thought I would pass it on for those that might
| run with the idea.

Another Idea I have seen (Larry's Brewing Supply, Renton WA) is that they
welded several 1" washers around the edge, sticking halfway over the edge,
and used the dip tube, and welded it to the top of the sankey valve bent up
about 30 degrees from horizontal. (after plugging the valve shut) and using
it as the Lid for your new boiling pot.

Brew on you crazy Diamonds.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Brander Roullett aka Badger
Homepage: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger
In the SCA: Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven

 "It had to be a linguistics professor who said that it's man's ability to
use language that makes him the dominant species on the planet. That  may
be. But I think there's one other thing that separates us from animals. We
aren't afraid of vacuum cleaners."       --Jeff Stilson



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 13:57:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Subject: DEADLINE EXTENDED-Cal. State Fair Comp

Hi all,

We have arranged to extend the deadline for entry submission for the
California State Fair Homebrew Competition to the 21st of May, 1999.

Full details of the competition, rules and entry forms are available at:

http://www.calweb.com/~robertac/gcba

I can also FAX you the forms and rules. Send your FAX number to:

robertac at calweb.com



Robert Arguello
California State Fair, Home Brew Competition Coordinator
Gold Country Brewers Association
robertac at calweb.com
530-759-1006



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 18:03:44 -0500
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE: Furry Projectiles In The Night

Having been loafing on vacation in the Carolinas for a week or so I just this
week got back hard at work catching up on HBD.  I try to squeeze in writing a
little code now and then as a break.

Anyway, I read Phil Yates and Dr. Pivo (aka D. Quayle) discussing whirling
cats overhead by the tail.  I caught a possum (opossum to you yankees) in
the trash in my garage and decided to try a variation of the experiment.
However, the possum was too heavy and the skinny tail too slippery so I never
reached my rpm goal.  Fortunately the garage door was open and the slippage
took place in the right part of the swing.  I didn't hear any glass breaking
in the neighborhood so I guess he sailed into the woods from whence he came.
My cat made it quite clear that the experiment was to go no further so I guess
I will have to wait until I develop a stronger grip or catch a lighter possum
before I retry the experiment.

Man, science is fun!

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 22:00:26 CSTCDT
From: "Anthony & Julie Brown" <brown32 at web1.ecol.net>
Subject: wheat yeast strains

I have been using the wyeast 3068 wheat yeast for my traditional wheat
beers but they seem to come out close but not just right.  I am
wondering if I should use a different type of yeast to obtain the
results I am looking for.  I am trying to duplicate a 
Haaker Pshorr Weiss type flavor(pardon my spelling).  If anyone has
any recipes (extract) or opinions on which wheat strain to use it would
be greatly appreciated....



Tony B.


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:31:08 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: Krauzening A "Bayer" Krauzened Weiss.

Imagine that - having the inherent regional brewing style baked into the
brewer's name.  You sure that that is not just a "phoney" name that you
are "hiding" behind, Mr. BAYER.  I'm not sure I trust you.  You kind of
remind me of that "squirrel" guy.  You sure you're not the same person? 
Are you entirely sure that you're not me?

Actually, Mark Bayer asked quite a few very relevant questions about
krausening a weiss beer.... none of which I can answer. Specially not
regarding a Weiss as I don't brew them.

I do do quite a bit if krausening, and it always along side of the same
beer that is treated in some other manner (artificially carbonated, gyle
primed, or "naturally" lagered), so do have a bit of a feel for what
they do.

The Krauzen yeast you introduce, will dominate the style.  If it was
going to be a diacetyl producer or reducer, it will do it regardless of
whether it is left in its original batch, or taken out as a krauzen.... 
but not necessarily under the same conditions. I don't think to my
knowledge, I've ever had a krauzened batch that has been a heavy
diacetyl producer, unless I "trick the yeast", such as cold shocking
them, and then letting them work a few more weeks back at temperature. 
This can be done VERY long into the lagering cycle (months), as the
yeast seem to behave as though in a state of suspended animation. It
will also attenuate the same as the "mother" batch.

Probably most important, is that a krauzened batch is so uniquely
different than other fermenting methods, that it has a "style" all its
own, and hard to guess what is appropriate compared to the same batch
"non krauzened".  That is, it makes such a complex flavour, that whether
you want it drier or sweeter etc. would be your own personal choice.  I
tend towards "sweeter" because part of the "krauzened" taste is enhanced
bitterness.  There are I think three dominant sources of that (by my
taste buds, not from any literature sources) 1) is a much more
pronounced "hop flavour".  The flavouring and aroma hops tend to stand
out more, more sharply advertise their "style" and more importantly MUCH
longer. 2) almost invarioubly, there is a slight "snap bean" flavour,
that adds to the "young, green" taste. 3) there is always a "fresh
yeast" taste.

My guess is that all of these are effects of the incredible reductive
power of the yeast when it gets dumped in.

I think most importantly....

>   it's a good
> experiment to compare with past non-krausened batches.  my intent in
> krausening is simply to try it and see what the flavor impact is.

Yep. That's the ticket.  It will undoubtedly surprise you, teach you
where you want to go with it (if you indeed do), and I would only make
sure you've got some "non krauzened" alongside, to taste and really
compare the fine points.  Preferably taste at several different ages,
since krauzening is sort of like capturing a small "window" of maturity,
and extending it over long times.

Regarding temperatures they're your choice.  Yes, I would drop from
primary temperatures, but your secondary (at least mine) are already
cooler, so you've already made the step.  I like going to the secondary
temp for about two weeks (4C, 5C?) (this is called a "carbonating" step,
but I expect there is much more going on there), and then dropping it to
as cool and as long as my patience allows. Small batches you might want
to take a bit slowly there, big barrels, just roll them into the cold
room, sit on your hands, and wait for the magic. 

I've called krauzening a "fountain of youth" but maybe a Czech brew
master put it better (direct quote, without grammatical or syntax
change): "Krauzen is like young woman".

I think this particularly sexist comment, delivered with a leer, was
referring to the firmness of the flesh of youth, and how all the
training programs and make-up in the world cannot recapture that when
someone gets to my sagging jowled age.

Dr. Pivo

> i'm considering writing an article for bt or zymurgy.  potential topic:
> _the massive flavor impact of hydroxyapatite in beijing breweries_.

I think most of the hydroxyapatite in Beijing has come from my teeth,
after riding my bicycle into a gutter after "a long night out"... I'd
start looking there, just next to Dongzhemen, in the ditch beside the
public "squatters".


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:36:43 -0400
From: "Jeff Beinhaur" <beinhaur at email.msn.com>
Subject: SureScreens

Al K. brought up my problem with "cloggage". From my original post I
received the following from Jeff McNally:

There are 2 things you need to do to avoid this problem:
>
>1.  Wait about 5 minutes after moving the kettle before you open the
>drain valve.
>
>2.  Open the drain valve slowly and only enough to get the flow going.
>After the flow is going for a minute or two, slowly open the valve up
>all the way.
>
>  I'm assuming that you are using only whole hops (or plugs).  Pellets
>will plug up the drain no matter what you do.

My response to Jeff was, "call me skeptical". Surprisingly enough when I
brewed again this past weekend I followed Jeff's advice and it worked
flawlessly. Thanks again Jeff. By the way I used fresh whole hops and hop
plugs. I must also mention that I neglected to add  any amount of Irish Moss
(must have been the effects from the Troeg's Pale Ale, right Jeff Woods?). I
mention this because another person had mentioned that this can cause
clogging.

Jeff Beinhaur, Camp Hill, PA
Home of the Yellow Breeches Brewery





Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 22:37:21 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Out In The Open

It's high time the cat was let out of the bag (tail and all)! A few people
in this HBD have not been very honest about who they really are. Mr Burley,
don't squirm there in your seat. No wonder you have ducked off for a bit of
a holiday! And Dr Pivo, just how long did you think you could get away with
this. Oh you are so very cunning indeed! Arguing so bitterly between
yourselves. And all of us watching in awe. So many wicked distractions,
secret squirrels, name calling, scenes behind a barn! Even Eric Fouch was
struggling to keep up! And now we learn the truth. A modern day Dr Jekyl and
Mr Hyde hiding right here in our very own HBD! This is absolutely
monstrous!!!

     Phil and Jill Yates. (now I'm getting a bit suspect about these two as
well)!



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:45:46 -0400
From: "Roat, Todd (ROATTW)" <ROATTW at UCMAIL.UC.EDU>
Subject: Hop Bags - What's to Lose ?

I always use hop bags in my 15.5 gal brewpot for the simple reason of 
"ease
of cleanup". However, in a theoretical attempt to not compromise the 
hop
utilization (just in case this is true ;^) I put the hops in a large 
grain
bag (a grain bag that will hold about 8 lbs.). My theory is that 
this gets
the hops as close as possible to being "free-floating" while still 
keeping
them contained for easy cleanup?

Seems a reasonable assumption, no?

Todd


Todd W. Roat
Clinical Trials Coordinator
EMCREG Coordinator
Department of Emergency Medicine
231 Bethesda Avenue
Cincinnati, Ohio 45267-0769
(P)513-558-5216
(F)513-558-5791
 <mailto:emcreg at uc.edu> emcreg at uc.edu
todd.roat at uc.edu <mailto:todd.roat at uc.edu> 




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:53:13 -0400
From: "Roat, Todd (ROATTW)" <ROATTW at UCMAIL.UC.EDU>
Subject: Phils Phlier

Is that the drawing I saw on your design board at the shop the other 
day?

Can't you utilize a more moderate sized bag (say like the inflated 
cushion
bags used in the Olympic High Jump event or Pole Vault) and incorporate 
one
of your "should-be-patented" automatic, self-regulating sens-o-matic 
air
regulator apparati (sp?) to allow heat to enter only when needed? 
Like your
automatic sparge water gravity regulator thingy......

Todd

Todd W. Roat
Clinical Trials Coordinator
EMCREG Coordinator
Department of Emergency Medicine
231 Bethesda Avenue
Cincinnati, Ohio 45267-0769
(P)513-558-5216
(F)513-558-5791
 <mailto:emcreg at uc.edu> emcreg at uc.edu
todd.roat at uc.edu <mailto:todd.roat at uc.edu> 




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 99 07:51:12 -0400
From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: R.E. "Dave Humes Assumes"

OK Phil, as much as I disagree on having a public discussion within the
HBD on a topic having nothing to do with beer, you leave me no choice. 
Your post touched a very raw nerve, as last summer my wife and I spent a
week staying up all night nursing one of our cats back to health because
of a similar incident as you described.  We didn't see it happen or know
who did it, only that the vet said that it looked like someone
intentionally cut her tail.  Fortunately, it was not cut all the way
through.  So it was possible to reattach it and now she is fine.  But, we
spent a lot of hours wondering who would do such a thing and why.  There's
a lot of crazy people out there who really do mutilate animals.  So, on
reading your post, it was not difficult to imagine that someone could
actually do what you described and my reaction was admittedly based on
anger and it came out with a rather nasty tone as you say.  Now you may
think that I'm making this all up just to get some sympathy votes.  Wrong. 
I'll be glad to take some digital photos of the veterinary emergency room
bills and send you the files if you like.  

Now, as to your remarks about having a public discourse on this subject. 
I make a concious choice in responding to posts whether private email or a
post to the digest is appropriate.  In this case, it just simply had
nothing to do with beer.  So, in my opinion, it does not belong on the
digest.  Note, I am breaking my own rule by responding to you here. 
Contrary to your statement, I do not consider myself the self-appointed
"Chairman" of the HBD.  Your post was the only one I have ever responded
to stating that I thought the material was inappropriate for the digest. 
Apart from the digest's moderator who only steps in in the most extreme
cases, we (everyone participating on the digest) are the real moderators
of the list.  And we do it by telling other people what we like or
dislike, using either the digest or private email depending on which is
appropriate.  I simply don't want to see the digest turned into the likes
of the Jenny Jones show on topics that have nothing to do with beer.

I am glad to hear you and the neighbor's cat are bonding, and by the way I
only wear a tie for funerals and weddings.

- --Dave

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>                  Dave Humes
- -----------------------------------------------------------



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:48:01 -0500
From: "Kelly" <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: RE: << The Best Drunk Quotes...Ever

You forgot one:

"Rehab is for quitters...."

Anon-



Kelly :)



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:54:21 -0400
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at vms.arizona.edu>
Subject: AOB tax status

Paul wrote:

> The AOB, including the AHA, is changing tax designations from 501c3 to
> 501c6. 

And is the AOB going to change it's main reason for being tax exempt from
"PROMOTION OF HOMEBREWING" to something more in line wiht where the
majority of the money is really generated and spent?

Jim Liddil much closer to Jeff Renner




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 09:01:36 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Decoction Profiles

Mark says:
I have a brewhouse report from the Stroh's brewery in Winston-Salem, NC.
They take 10 minutes  in the transfer so as not to destroy any enzymes by
dumping a lot of hot, boiling mash in all at  one time. I have also read in
Kunze that the addition of the decocted mash should be done slowly to avoid
damaging the enzymes. So I figure between 5 and 10 minutes. This is what I
have read in Kunze and Noonan.

I say:

Ten minutes for Stroh's brewery to transfer so as not to destroy enzymes?
Let's think, how many hundreds / thousands of pounds of decoction are they
moving?  I'll be it's a lot.  Could it be done faster?  Maybe only with a
dump truck?  Is the reason that they do it slow a limitation of the
equipment (no dump truck or fancy "dumpable" decoction tun) or a necessity
(a pump can only pump so fast)?  Just a thought...no offense intended.
nathan in madison, wi

PS you also need to "hold after the decoction" to allow for
saccharification to occur...that was the real reason for decoction, to get
the mash to the temperature for a rest




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:09:06 -0400
From: Joe Rolfe <rolfe at sky.sky.com>
Subject: o2 in microbrews

Al K said...
<snip - some stuff on Chicago Brewing>
>up by various other breweries, but their beer suffered from 
>oxidation rather than sanitation problems.

This crap (below not above)/QD has no bearing on homebrewing unless
you are going pro or are a pro wannabe...

Not surprising. It is easier to produce clean beer than to produce low
o2 beer in a bottle.  Chicago (if memory serves) had a flash
pastuerizing set up ahead of the filler. These work great if used
properly.  But the item that bugged me was the filler was real close
to the door and they ran the filler with the door wide open...Got
lucky I guess.  Most micros that use a short tube, (Meyer or similar
filler) will have problems if they dont take some precautions to
pre-evacuate the bottle with co2 or other suitable gas. I dont know
how many micros have know with these fillers that have gone out of
business by not taking care of this "issue".  Yeah I'm sure some have
had other problems also.  Many have told  me "cap on foam" is enough.
I dont know about that - you would have to do a packaged air test. I
doubt it would be a real good number and I doubt the o2 cap is going
to pull that much air out.  At that point it is probably to late
anyway - the damage has been done. All this rarely matters if the beer
is sold thru within a month - but then most micros do that (sell thru)
anyway - right?. My advice you just spent a sh*tl load of money on the
brewhouse, tanks and support items. Then your going to cheap out by
$50K or so diff between a good filler and a bad one. Dont do it even
if it looks like a great deal...

Like I said useless info for a homebrewer....sorry to waste the
bandwidth for the majority....
Joe


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:11:08 -0500
From: "Brett A. Spivy" <baspivy at softdisk.com>
Subject: Labeling method summary . . .

Hello all, I trust this finds you well.

As usual, I got an overwhelming response to my labeling query.  I
thought I would post a summary, since everyone was so gracious and I
have recently become aware that there are more Newbie Lurkers subscribed
to the forum than there are ChemHead Multi-posters with 3000 gallons and
twenty years of HB under their belt (no offense should be taken here, I
like the Chemistry stuff, I just don't understand it - YET!).

More than a half dozen bottlers have only bottled and have purchased
pre-glued, pre-printed labels and based on their past experiences
recommended that I do the same.
This idea, I don't like, but thank-you for the input.

About a dozen, some who kegged but bottled "gift" beer, said stick with
the glue stick, but use a water soluble generic instead of Crayola TM
and use a LOT less glue.  Apparently, I should be able to label almost
three cases of beer from one stick if applied properly.  The general
consensus of "properly" was "just around the edges and a small X in the
center should get the job done and maintain my "easy to float off "
constraint.  This group could not resist encouraging a speedy movement
to kegging.
I like this idea, but still think there must be an easier, more
consistent method.

The Beerslayer uses various methods.  For just a few wine bottles, clear
laminate sheets over computer printed labels gets it done.  For more
than that, 50-50 white glue and water brushed evenly over the back, dry
to tacky, then position carefully 'cause it not movin'.  The short dry
prevents wrinkling of the label due to saturation at the time of
placement, but it does negate the ability to move it around any.  Once
again encouragement towards kegging dominated the conversation.
This method makes the most sense to me because of the nature of water
souluble "school glue" and its dirt cheap cost ($ 1.90 for a quart).

This last method came from four different posters and one personal phone
call (a lawyer too, wish I could get MY lawyer to pick-up a phone, I
wonder if that call was bilabial).  This is not only the most creative
and cost effective method, it appeals to my basic nature because it
seems somewhat rustic in basis.  Milk!  Yep, good old milk.  Whole, 2%,
1%, Skim, whatever. nobody knows why but it sticks tight as a drum while
dry and then floats off in a ten minute soak of warm water (one said he
mixed 100 ppm chlorine bleach and sanitized while de-labeling).  "Don't
soak the thing, just wet the back and stick it on - works like a charm."
was the most convincing comment.
I really like the idea of this method and if it works, will go this
direction.

I still have a week or more before bottling time for my first batch
(just racked to secondary 2:30 this morning), so I am going to 'sperment
with the milk thing tonight and see how it goes.

Thanx to all who responded.
Brett A. Spivy

Postscript:  I received maybe thirty more emails after I wrote this, but
before it had been sent out of my out basket.  They pretty much followed
the same spread and advice with three notable exceptions. The vast
majority of bottlers that have done it more than two years prefer the
milk method.  One person suggested 3M spraymount which I have already
experimented with (in the marketing activities I complete for my
company, I use all seven 3M spray adhesives extensively).  This stuff
really holds, and it can be just peeled off in most dry mount
situations, but when the bottle sweats or is put in a cooler this
adhesive has some VERY unfavorable properties for fast east removal --
its out.  That brings up most everyones problem with the milk method -
put your bottle in a cooler (without a baggie around it I mean) and the
label floats right off.  Then I got a very interesting post about a
product called UHU gluestic.  Goes on purple, dries clear (this is also
a property of the Crayola TM GlueStick I mentioned earlier.  Here's a
snip for you:

UHU brand glue sticks hold up well in cold water, and the labels will
not fall off if the bottle sweats.  VERY HOT water will cause the label
to drop off in a few seconds.

When you factor in that at the Office Max this product is half the price
(by volume) of the Crayola TM, I think I'm going to do my first batch
with half milk and half UHU and see what I like best.

Thanx agin to all.




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:27:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jesse Stricker <jds19 at duke.edu>
Subject: Nitrogen fixers


Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com writes, in an attempt to make a widget-free 
nitrogen head:

> Believe it or not, Fred has been toying around with a few of these 
> organisms in The Bent Dick HPL (High Pressure Laboratory).  I try to tell 
> him he needs to wear his pressure suit in there, but he complains that 
> the suits irritates his hemorrhoids.  Anyway, Fred's goal is to develop a 
> way to deliver a rich, N2 containing Guinness-like head on his brews 
> without the use of a widget.  He started working with Methanococcus 
> jannaschii, which, as you know, has nitrogen fixing properties.  
> Unfortunately, this organism performs best at 94C and 200 atmospheres.  
> Man, that's murder on the eardrums!  (By the way, Alan, this organism may 
> be capable of surviving a properly functioning autoclave, 
> (http://www.ncgr.org/microbe/methanococcustxt.html) so watch it!)  After 
> some reconstructive surgery at the local Otorhynolaryngoligist, Fred 
> turned his attentions to Azotobacter vinelandii, which is also a nitrogen 
> fixer, and it works at STP.  He's not sure whether to pitch this 
> bacterium with the yeast, or with the dry hops.  At least his ears have 
> stopped bleeding.

	Yes!  I knew that if I read HBD long enough that the conversation
would sooner or later turn to something that I know way too much about,
and I could step up and lecture.  Well, here it is! 

	I've worked with both M. jannaschii and Azotobacter.  The
Methanococcus was dead at the time, since I had it at room temperature,
atmospheric pressure and an oxygen atmosphere.  It won't survive an
autoclave, because it's an obligate anaerobe -- i.e. oxygen kills it. 
(Nothing that is pathogenic in humans survives autoclaving, as far as I
know.) Even if you did manage to get around the problem of temperature,
pressure and oxygen (and, yes, your beer may not be oxidized, but it still
has enough dissolved oxygen to kill obligate anaerobes), you still have to
get around the fact that what Methanococcus really likes to do is make
methane, which will not, to my knowledge, make a creamy head, although you
would get to light your beer on fire, which would be a cool bar trick. 

	Azotobacter grows at room temperature in oxygen.  It's a soil
bacterium, and, yes, it fixes nitrogen.  The problem with this plan is
that nitrogen fixation doesn't make N2, it eliminates it.  Nitrogen
fixation is really important because all organisms need nitrogen to make
amino acids for proteins, but they can't use atmospheric nitrogen, so it
has to be reduced to ammonia (fixed) by the few bacteria that can do so. 
Yeast can't do it, pediococcus can't, hops can't.  Even botulism spores
and fruit flies and cats can't fix nitrogen :) Here's my equation for the
year: 

	N2 + H2 ---> 2NH + H2 ---> 2NH2 + H2 ---> 2NH3

	each step catalyzed by an enzyme in an electron transport chain. 

	So, by using Azotobacter, you take any nitrogen you have and turn
it into ammonia.  This might be detectable as an off flavor, and won't
make a nice creamy head either.  Plus, I know from experience that aerobic
Azotobacter cultures smell like a combination of rotting wood and baby
vomit.  Even those in the HBD collective who believe that style guidelines
stifle creativity would be hard pressed to sit back, relax and drink an
Azotobacter culture. 

	Sorry about the length of this, and for taking a joke too
seriously.  It's not often I get to talk about my specialty :)

	Jesse

- --
	Jesse Stricker				jds19 at acpub.duke.edu



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 07:42:40 -0700
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: SureScreen(tm)

BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com>

" Temporarily, I fixed the problem by getting a long (30-inch?) 
stainless steel spoon and scraping the screens.  An hour later, I had 
gotten 95% of the wort out, pitched and went to bed...

As I stated in my response, it is my experience that any attempt to
scrape the screen during the process will only aggrivate the clog.

Keep in mind that as you scrape, you not only (hopefully) unclog the
screen but several other unwanted situations are created.  First of
all you may actually force some of the trub into the screen and
clog what is not already clogged.  Secondly, you create an area
of suspended material in the vicinity of the strainer which
immediately gets sucked into it and much of it clogs the screen.

My suggestion for dealing with a clog is to allow the 
trub to settle after scraping to set the filter bed, just as one 
does when starting.  Don't let it run while scraping.  This also
implies that not letting the wort settle long enough is also the
cause of the clog in the first place.

I have not had a clog in years but I also use a pump which probably
mitigates the problem somewhat. 

I also recommend blowing on the end of the hose rather than scraping
as a minimal disturbance technique.  Al will of course have to
use microbe free laboratory compressed air instead of the easy way
but no one ever accused him of doing things the easy way.  I wonder if
it has anything to do with his oft repeated comment that he has not
had time to make beer lately.  

js

p.s.  Any word on the family Al?  Won't be able to jazz you anymore.
You will have three much better excuses.

jjs
- -- 
     Visit our web site:  http://user.mc.net/arf
  ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK:  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:28:47 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Oat Malt Question

darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu asks:

>A question regarding Oat Malt (for Jeff and/or others who have used this):
>
>I just picked up a bag of malted oats.  How much of a 10-12 lb grain bill
>would one put in...2 lbs?

This seems to be a natural for dark ales.  It gives a richness and body -
almost oiliness in large amounts.  It's a nice additional ingredient to
have available.   It is available from North Country Malt Supply, PO Box
665, Rouses  Point,  NY 12979, (518)297-2604.  (std. disclaimer)

I made a 1.050 brown ale/strong mild and used 10%.  For my Domesday Ale, a
1.096, unhopped, uncarbonated recreation of a midieval ale, I used 50% -
home malt stout uses 22%.  Wadsworth's Oat Malt Ale ( a "wine red hue")
uses 11% with another 6% unmalted pinhead oats.  I'm slowly going through
the book looking for other beers made with it.

You will probably have a hazier wort/beer that will take time to clear.
>From a note I got from James Fawcett of Fawcett & Sons, Maltsters
http://www.fawcett-maltsters.co.uk/welcom.htm , who are the only producers
of this that I know:

"3) Oat malt laboratory worts are normally slightly hazy  rather than
clear. Oats are not normally low in protein and are quite difficult to
modify from a protein viewpoint,  which could well explain this. Our
current stock gives values of 11.8 % total protein with an index of
modification of  27.8%.   4) As far as mash schedules are concerned  we
would suggest you ensure temperatures are between 63 degrees C and 68
degrees  C during mashing in with a one hour minimum stand after mashing
in a grist composed of 50% oat malt and 50% lager  malt.   5) You should
aim at a liquor/grist ratio of between  2.5:1and 3:1.   6) Oat malt needs
very close mill settings to achieve  an acceptable grist. For normal malts
our standard mill setting is 62 thou top and 58 thou bottom- for oat malt
we  drastically reduce these settings to 48 thou top and 42 thou bottom.
Certainly a point to watch to produce  an optimal grist for mashing."

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:41:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Bigfoot, Nessie, and Autoclave-resistant lifeforms

Eric Fouch gave me some info on a possible autoclave survivor.
Thanks for the pointer to the genome site's description of the  methanococcus
from a deep thermal vent. Unfortunately, I don't see anything here that would
lead me to believe it could survive an autoclave run. It's stated viable temp
range is 48 - 94 degrees celcius. Impressive certainly but nowhere near
autoclave temps...

still watching the skies...

_Alan Meeker



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:40:03 -0700
From: Dave Sapsis <DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov>
Subject: new dimensions in caca

Praying that the weather will finally turn warm so I can sweat whilst mowing
my 6,000 sq. ft. of lawn (you gotta love Sacramento -- free water!  It's in
the city's charter!), staid ol' me has gotten adventurous:

"SACCA SHITE WITE" (Sacramento cream ale-wit hybrid stuff)

For 40 L

5 kg Crisp Clarity malt
2.5 kg Jasmine rice

German Spalt to about 15 BU
light aroma dosing asso of Spalt
10 g sweet orange peel (at knock out)
15 g Coriander (also at knock out)

 400  ml thick slurry Bridgeport yeast.

You may ask why use a low protien (hence low dp) malt with 1/3 adjunct?  I
told you I was feeling adventurous.  
I'll post outcome as it is lagering now.

Sage for a day:  I have found that laughing at oneself makes life more
pleasant.

- --dave                   
	"On the serious side BOP! BOP! BOP!.
Shedoobiedoowahdooobiedoobiedoowahdoobiedoowah. BOP! BOP! BOP!
	
- --Tower of Power


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:00:13 -0500
From: Brian K Dulisse <DULISSE_BRIAN_K at Lilly.com>
Subject: brewery questions



i'm slowly getting closer to actually building the brewery.  some questions:

1.  does anyone in the indianapolis area have a recommendation on a good
stainless welder?  more generally, what questions should i ask a welder i take
my sanke kegs to?  i know i want tig welds, and i should probably make sure
that they don't use anything containing cadmium, but what else?  i'd obviously
like to make sure i entrust the kegs to someone who knows what they are doing
for this application . . .

2.  in perusing a number of web pages where folks have put details of their
own systems, i've noted the popularity of making a sight glass out of plastic.
most of these pages are not new; i'd like to know how the plastic has stood
the test of time, particularly for the boiling kettle . . .

3.  because i don't fancy hot water 6+ feet off of the ground, i've decided to
go the pump route.  having decided that, it would seem reasonable to construct
a heat exchange rims (i guess the term is herms . . .).  there appears to be a
real split among the people that have constructed various rims systems on how
to get the various liquids here and there.  some folks use plastic tubing,
others use copper pipe.  none of the pages i've seen has featured a discussion
of why the brewer chose the method they chose.  i'd like to hear the
advantages/disadvantages of each method.

thanks

bd




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 18:18:24 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: Beerhound in Beijing

> "Anyhow I've got a collected catalogue of 38 beers drinkable within
> Beijing, if anybodies interested."
> 
> I would be very interested, I have several friends in that part of the
> world.  I might get there myself in the near future.

I never thought anyone would take me seriously, only mentioned it to
demonstrate my own lunacy, but perhaps it is of "general interest". 
Remember that these notes are 11 years old now:

GENERAL NOTES:

RESTAURANTS: You may find that you bump into a beer in a restaurant,
that you never find in a shop.  Some just come that way.  Anything it
China that actually "works", usually does so by way of "the back door". 
There is a word for friend (pengyou), where I never did quite learn the
distinction between where the concept "friend" ended, and "business
contact" started.  If you have a friend, who has a friend in the
restaurant business, you can get some interesting stuff by the "back
door".  Beijing White Lable "Banquet" is an example of one of these
rarities.

SHOPS: Delivery is erratic.  If you find something nice someplace, go
back and buy all you can, it might not be there again for a month or
two.  The rule here is "stockpile".

PARTIES:  Refrigerator space is at a premium in Beijing.  If you're
planning a "whoop-it-up" ("hey folks, wan'na come taste my 'collection'
on Saturday?") look for the Rickshaw drivers (they're not called that,
but OK) that hang out near where they sell soft drinks on the street. 
They keep the bottles melted into little holes in a big slab of ice. 
The Rickshaw guys deliver the ice.  They'll deliver a HUGE slab right to
your door for next to nothing.  They are not so used to dealing with
foreigners, and consequently friendly and honest in my experience.

BICYCLES:  The favoured mode of transport in Beijing, which is really
"the world's largest collection of villages".  If you turn down a little
alley, you'll suddenly find yourself "peddleing through a dirt road in a
village", with the old men sitting out under the tree on the "village
square".  You just can't get there by car. The city is flat, the Chinese
bikes are of an entirely different ergonomic design, where your legs
are  "out front" peddling, instead of directly under like ours, and suit
well for just peddleing slow all day (with the occasional beer and food
pause).

You should seek out three features on your bike:

1) Older ones are as good as new.  Chinese quality control is not a "big
thing" so if you buy a new one, half of it will fall off before you've
gone down the street.... they just put the nuts on, they don't tighten
them.  "Feng hua" (phoenix) and "flying pidgeon" are two sturdy brands.
 
2) Every Chinese bike has a bell the size of a small bathisphere.  It
should ring loud, shrilly, and long.  Your bell should be heard two city
blocks away (the average Beijing city block is about 8 kilometers long),
and would be, if everyone else wasn't ringing their bells at the same
time.  Ring your bell often and proudly.  You don't want to "sneak up"
on anyone, as it can be a major traffic hazard when they suddernly jerk
their head to stare at the "wai guo" passing them.  Your bell is your
sign of respect in traffic.  If in doubt that your bell is the biggest
on the street, mount two.

2) All Chinese bikes have "fold out" wire baskets on the back.  Buy the
biggest size you can find.  The big guys will fit 8 large bottles a
side, and are invaluable if you finally find "an odd sought after brand"
across town.

BEERS:

BEERS TO LOOK FOR:

Beijing "white label": 3.5-4 vol. light with round fine fruity taste,
and an unusually clear bitterness that lingers.

Beijing "black label" 15P. preferred by many foreigners. A light taste
with good bitterness.  A bit "ricey" and too much alcohol for my tastes.

Five Star: 11P. Light, fresh. Fresh aroma. very nice.

Yangang beer 12P. nice light lager taste. a bit "honey sweet".

Quanchi beer: slight roasted flavour - very mild and with a gentle
caramel sweetness. Well carbonated.

Xing Can 11P. A lighter pilsner with unusual initial flavour, sweet
aroma, and a somewhat metallic bitterness at the end that fades into a
quite comfortable bitterness. The roasted background is somewhat
overshadowed by this.

GuoduPijiu 10.5P fresh roasted taste, bit on the sweet side.  Coffee ice
cream aroma.

Oriental Beer 12P same brewery (Guoyingdongfang) as Guodu. Nice light
and fruity taste.

Aolei Beer 12P Mild with caramel undertone. Good.

Feng Run Pijiu 11P. soft but quite full in flavour. Light fine
bitterness. Inconsistant carbonation between bottles.

QingQuan Pijiu 12P, 13P Good, fruity, rich.

ShandongLiaoChen 11P Burst of "Pommac" or"apple soda". light after
taste.

YuQuanShan Pijiu 10P fruity, a little sweet. "fresh" taste. A little
"Bayer" like in flavour, but a little bit strong "rice" taste.

Qingshiba Pijiu 12P. Full flavour. inconsistant carbonation. Fine "flat"
malt flavour.

Huanghe Pijiu 12P, and "87" 15P. somewhat musty, light sweetness.
Something pilsner reminiscent here.

Zhu Jiang Beer 12P. light lager. Honey sweet and "round". A bit
"alcohol" dominant.

Liu Quan Pijiu 12P. of the "roasted" quality, but light taste and "apple
seed" bitterness in after taste.

That's probably enough.... there's plenty more.

BEERS TO "WATCH OUT" FOR:

Fenxing Pijiu: flat thin. Shachen Pijiu: Sour two weeks after bottleing.
Yu Die 12P: pukey, watery. Beijing "light" beer: meaningless.XinLu
Pijiu: watery, low carbonation, sulphur "yeast stress" stink.

Now aren't you sorry you asked?

Dr. Pivo (Pijiu Dai Fu)


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 01:08:01 -0400
From: "Tim Green" <timgreen at eriecoast.com>
Subject: Swinging Cats and good (or bad) manners

Mr. Yates writes:

>     This is a rather difficult post as I am responding to someone who
>despite my invitation to do so refuses to let anyone else in the HBD see
>what he likes to write! His preference is to send very nasty private
emails.
>The source of Dave's bitterness was my Cat Swinging post.

Sir,

I also sent you private email on this topic. I did it because I had intended
to make you aware of my feelings in private rather than insulting you in
public.

I, for one, was taught that it was very rude to shout at someone and insult
them in public, rather it should be done face to face (so to speak).

If you would rather, I can post the total of my text to you in this forum,
but I feel it would serve little purpose to subject the rest of the
readership to something that is just between us and should be kept there.

If you feel the need to answer this post, my email address is
timgreen at eriecoast.com

Tim Green




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 13:10:25 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Potassium Sorbate in Beer

Phil Wilcox (pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com)  asks about using potassium sorbate 
to
stablize beer for sweetening with honey.  I have successfuly  used it to
stop wild yeast infections in kegs and also to protect low alcohol and 
low
bittered beers from infections.  I haven't detected any flavor changes
although I have heard that is possible.  If I was going to sweeten a beer

with honey, I would try to rack it off the sedimented yeast as much as
possible, maybe even a coarse filtering, before adding the honey and
potasium sorbate to minimize its work.

Dan Listermann    dan at listermann.com      72723.1707 at compuserve.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 15:57:46 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: magnetic stirrers

I've been thinking of getting a magnetic stir plate and was wondering what
length/shape stir bar I should get. Would 1" be okay? There are X shaped
ones and straight ones. Any advantage of one over the other?  Also, what
speed should they be operated at? They seem to have variable speed from 100
to 1000 rpm's.
TIA



Return to table of contents

---