---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: HBD Bouncer?/Water pH ("Stephen Alexander")
  Not a Beer Story ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  Is Someone Baiting Me? ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  CounterPhil (Dan Listermann)
  Re:  Rye beer ("Curt Abert")
  Bottling Imperial Stout (Matt Birchfield)
  Re:chiller agitation (Dave Hinrichs)
  Re: Compression fittings for gases (John_E_Schnupp)
  keg carbonation ("Spies, Jay")
  Sankey Kegs (jslusher)
  cleaning and sanitizing? ("Sandlin, Jonathan Mark - BUS")
  Malt Flavor (Biergiek)
  Pro Brewer's Setups ("Robert G. Poirier, Jr.")
  Chill - Hot ("Perle")
  Rye Beer/Sightglass material (GuyG4)
  Two Q's on Aluminum and Grain ("Don Glass")
  Siebel ("Rob Moline")
  counterflow chiller sanitization (J Daoust)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

2000 MCAB Qualifiers: Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99
(http://burp.org/SoFB99); Oregon Homebrew Festival 5/22/99
(http://www.mtsw.com/hotv/fest.html); Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99
(http://www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff)

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JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 03:22:03 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: HBD Bouncer?/Water pH

John Wilkinson writes ...
>Uh oh, I don't like the direction this is taking.  Pat as Big Brother?

>Don't say Steve Alexander didn't warn you.


Based on my impression of mythical Pat Babcock, he is not likely to take
that job or even be party to it.  But it is nice to see that the policy and
moderation statement (see HBD website) clearly forbids censorship of
on-topic posts.  The copyrights to our posts, assigned to Pat and Karl, can
be interpreted as a quid pro quo for proper disposition of all posts.

I don't intend to become the Ralph Nader of HBD, and I don't suspect it will
ever be necessary with Pat at the wheel, but if anyone feels that they are
being unjustly censored here - drop me an email.  I'll see if the issue
can't get the proper attention and visibility. (It's tough to argue a point
if you are being censored).

I still find it interesting that I get two decidedly opposing responses from
people about my censorship tirade of 1998.  Either that I was off my nut or
that I was standing up for a principled POV.  I guess it's a matter of how
seriously you take the concept of 'open forum' and whether you think that
all POVs should be heard - even the boring argumentative ones, Clinitest
claims or the ones containing animal cruelty humor.  Yes - some people seem
to believe that they are or should be in charge of HBD content even within
the context of beer related posts.  I was recently cc:'ed on an email to the
janitors implying this. Don't let your guard down.
- --

Keith Alan Meeker reports that most of the water treatments he tried
increase rather than decrease the water pH.  I have the same experience.  I
have found that boiling or liming water does apparently decrease the
carbonate buffering so that MUCH less acid is required to hit the brewing pH
range after these procedures.  As for acidifying to pH 5.5 to 5.6, I find I
get good results if all my brewing water is 6.0 to 6.5.  The mash (an
amazingly forgiving process) hits the low 5.x's without any further
adjustment.


>(though the reactions are still a bit unclear to me and the role of the
>phytase/phytate reaction seems to be getting short shrift).

I argee with this in theory .... according to M&BS the phosphytase(s) that
act to produce phytic acid  which has a very high affinity for calcium ions,
as the phytate and calcium interact, H ions are released and pH is reduced.
  3Ca++ + 2HPO4--  <=> 2H+ + Ca(PO4)3 drops
"Up to four calcium ions react in a similar manner with one molecule of
phytic acid (...) which has an extremely high affinity for calcium".

>(An aside, Saw Fix & Fix's recent book and in it they show a steep
>decrease of amylase activity on one side of the pH curve but this is
>exactly the opposite of the behavior seen in lab analysis of the purified
>enzyme, anyone know what's up with that?)

Say - I'm not sure if Alan has won enough national HB awards to comment on
this yet (inside joke) but the figures I see on pp 168 of AoBT show a fast
drop in Yield and reaction rates with increasing pH and the text attributes
this to pH sensitivity of the enzymes.  Yield loss may be due to inactivity
of some of the enzymes which are involved in degrading the starch granules
rather than in inactivity of alpha and beta amylase.  I have a couple older
references , like "Industrial Emzymology", Godfrey & Reichelt, 1983 show a
broader activity vs pH curve in reference to brewing that Fix does.  I'd
really like to see the  references Fix cites but don't have access at the
moment.

 -S
 .



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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:02:36 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Not a Beer Story

     Numerous folk have pointed out to me that Don McLean never sang
anything about dead skunks. For one who has practised this song in the
shower for so many years, this comes as a dreadful shock. Just as well I
didn't go pro as a Don McLean revivalist!
     Phil Yates.



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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:45:38 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Is Someone Baiting Me?

From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Anybody have a recipe that clones Corona?

            Jeff, we have just managed to put the cats behind us, please
don't tempt me with a subject like this!



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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:20:05 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: CounterPhil

David Humes ( humesdg1 at earthlink.net) mentioned that the CounterPhil ( no

stinking trade mark symbol required) operates with the siphon system. 

While ergonomically this may not be quite as desirable as the pressure
differential system, it has some advantages from the beer's perspective. 
 


The pressure differential system requires that the pressure in the bottle

be reduced below the pressure in the keg to move the beer.  This 
difference
is a function of the head difference ( the distance between the heights 
of
the bottle and the keg's liquid levels ) and the friction losses of the
hoses and fittings along the way.  This could amount to a couple of 
pounds
difference which may not seem like much, but remember that the beer is 
only
at about 10 pounds pressure and this difference, coupled with the 
agitation
of the moving beer, will cause foaming.

The siphon method maintains the exact same pressure in both the bottle 
and
the keg.  The beer only feels the agitation of its movement, no 
difference
in pressure.  This minimizes foaming and its surrounding problems.  


Dan Listermann        dan at listermann.com        72723.1707 at compuserve.com


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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:33:51 -0500
From: "Curt Abert" <abert at flanders.isgs.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re:  Rye beer

Greetings,

Greg asks about rye beers.  I've brewed several rye beers, with
both rye malt and flaked rye.  I think that the character that rye
adds to a beer is kind of hard to describe.  It can seem somewhat
astringent or bitter (but not in a bad way...).  The flaked rye adds
more of a grainy flavor than does rye malt.  In the batches I have
brewed, those with rye flakes had a fuller mouthfeel (similar to an
oatmeal stout), and those brewed with rye malt were similar to
wheat beers.  I feel that one is not preferable to the other, it just
depends on what you are looking for.

In either case, WATCH THE SPARGE!  The worst stuck sparge I
ever had was a rye malt batch.  However, that was fairly early
in my all-grain experience.  The last time I made a rye malt beer
I had no problems sparging.  I have used as much as 35% rye
in the grain bill and have had no problems sparging, you just have
to go slow and carefully...  Adding a protein rest at the beginning
of the mash helps with both rye malt and flakes.  I found that pre-
cooking the flakes helps as well.

I don't have any recipes handy, but I can send some later when
I get my record book.

Good Luck!

Curt Abert
Champaign, IL





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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:51:38 -0400
From: Matt Birchfield <peridot at usit.net>
Subject: Bottling Imperial Stout

Hi All,

A few questions about bottling my Imperial Stout ...

1-How long should it ferment in the secondary; Should it be aged in
bulk or in bottles? (Brewed it on May 1st and racked to secondary May
8th when vigorous fermentation subsided)

2-How much sugar should I use for carbonation, and will I need extra
yeast when priming?

3-At what temperatures should it be conditioned and stored, and how
long should conditioning take?

This batch's OG was 1.092, and is my first attempt at anything over
1.065, so any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Matt


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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:50:54 -0500
From: Dave Hinrichs <dhinrichs at quannon.com>
Subject: Re:chiller agitation


Mark A Bayer wrote:

>i was thinking how much easier this would be if i had a little mechanized
>"lifter" that i could prop under one edge of the kettle.

Why not build a little level that you give a push once and a while.



***************************************************************
* Dave Hinrichs                 E-Mail: dhinrichs at quannon.com *
* Quannon CAD Systems, Inc.             Voice: (612) 935-3367 *
* 6101 Baker Road, Suite 204              FAX: (612) 935-0409 *
* Minnetonka, MN 55345                                        *
*                http://www.quannon.com/                      *
***************************************************************


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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:36:19 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: Re: Compression fittings for gases

John questions me about not using compression fittings for gasses:

John, I hope you don't mind if I post my reply.

It's not that compression fittings won't work, it's just that they are not
recommended.  For connections with soft copper, flare fittings are the
recommended fitting.  I certainly wouldn't want to chance it with combustible
(propane for one) gases, but if you leak check the connections and there are no
leaks, then I guess it's your call.

Again, I'm not trying to say you can't use compression fittings, they just
aren't recommended.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:53:41 -0400
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: keg carbonation

All -

Having recently acquired a chest freezer for use as a corny keg tap system,
I have a queston concerning keg carbonation.  (I am already somewhat
familiar with draft system balancing and the use of appropriate line lengths
and sizes to lessen foaming, as well as with the use of
temperature/carbonation charts to achieve the appropriate number of volumes
for style).

My question centers on actual carbonation of beer after kegging.  As I've
heard in other BB's and forums, many prefer to shake the keg and add from 20
to 40 psi of co2 at anywhere from room temp to near freezing.  Others tend
to put the keg in the fridge, hook normal dispense pressure up to it, and
forget about it. 

Although I'm sure both provide adequate carbonation, I'd tend to side with
the latter camp.  As convenience goes, it beats the hell out of shaking a
full corny, and as far as consistency of carbonation, it seems to be the
most reliable alternative.

What's the general consensus from those of you with multiple tap systems?  I
plan to keep about 12 psi on the 3 beer lines  at  42-44 dF, so considering
this, how long would I expect it to take to carbonate a flat keg at that
temp w/o agitation?  If higher-psi shaking is the way to go, how do you get
the keg to back itself down to my expected 12 psi dispense pressure without
venting the keg and creating a foamy mess?

Lastly, for those of you who have tried both, which in your opinion gives
the best foam retention (or is there a difference at all) ??

TIA,

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
  and Freezer Redesign Department
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:21:09 -0400
From: jslusher <jslusher at flash.net>
Subject: Sankey Kegs

Hello everyone!

I recently purchased a scrap (legal mind you) a 1/4 keg (Miller) and would
like to know if anyone out there uses 1/4 or even 1/2 barrels for kegging
their brew.  My real question is the proper cleaning of the keg.  Does
anyone have a pump and Sankey valve setup (I've been toying with this in my
head) that they use and does it seem to work well for them.  If this
doesn't seem feasable, then I guess it will have a life as a kettle.
Cheers guys!


************************************************
John Slusher
jslusher at flash.net
http://www.flash.net/~jslusher/crabs
************************************************


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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:47:32 -0700
From: "Sandlin, Jonathan Mark - BUS" <SANJM304 at bus.orst.edu>
Subject: cleaning and sanitizing?

I plan to start doing my primary, seconadary and serving in 1/2 barrel sanke
kegs.  I am curious if it is possible to clean and sanitize without taking
the keg apart.  I plan to fill the keg through the tap with P.B.W and let
sit over night.  After that, I will empty the keg with CO2 pressure and then
add starsan the same way.  Will this work?  I hate taking the kegs apart,
and I can ferment in them by letting the gas escape through the out hose of
the tap.  Any critisisms or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Jon Sandlin
Corvallis, OR 97330


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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:51:57 EDT
From: Biergiek at aol.com
Subject: Malt Flavor

There has been some discussion of late regarding beer flavor.  One flavor 
aspect I have not yet been able to produce is a malt flavor in my Bavarian 
style lagers.  I do know the difference between malty, sweet, and caramely 
(is this a word?).  I think what most homebrewers refer to as malty is really 
caramely (from crystal malts) or sweet.  If this flavor is confusing then you 
need to eat some chocolate malt balls to get an idea of what the malt flavor 
is that I am talking about ("he said balls, ha ha ha").  Anyway, how can I 
achieve this malt flavor that I often taste in imported German lagers?  I 
have tried the usual techniques to achieve malt flavor with no success:

1) Yeast Strain:  I have used the common Wyeast strains Munich Lager, 
Bavarian Lager, and Czech Lager.  

2)  Using imported German Munich malt as the base malt, and adding Melanoidin 
malt.

3)  Decoction mashing and pressure cooking.

4)  Extended lagering.

Is a malty flavor in my German lagers unachievable at the homebrewing level, 
is this even too difficult for Dr. Pivo or Fred Garvin?  Please help!

Kyle
Bakersfield, CA


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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:42:20 -0700
From: "Robert G. Poirier, Jr." <bpoirierjr at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Pro Brewer's Setups

Greetings!!

I've been reading through the Practical Brewer (downloadable from the
MBAA's website in .pdf format, http://www.mbaa.com/education.html) - lots
of VERY interesting stuff in there!  Maybe not all related to brewing on
the homebrew scale, but still interesting, none the less!

I'm in the on-going and seemingly never ending process of planning/building
my homebrewery in the basement.  I plan on brewing lots of ten gallon
batches (someday)!  One things that's really got me thinking is the idea of
having a separate mash and lauter tun, but I can't come up with an
effective way of transferring the mash from one vessel to the other.  The
thought of moving the mash a potfull at a time does NOT excite me.  How do
the big boys do it?  With pumps?  Or do they have the mash and lauter tuns
on different levels, so that the force of gravity can be utilized?  And if
they do use gravity, what kind of gates/valves and plumbing do they use? 
Ahhh, so many options, sooo many questions!!

Something I'd really like to see is a detailed diagram of a pro brewers
setup (the size and yearly capacity matters not a wit), along with some
detailed pictures showing all the working hardware.  Does a resource such
as this exist in any form?  A website maybe, or a book, or...  ANYTHING?! 
I've got lots of pretty pictures of tuns and kettles, but no idea how they
all work together (mechanically speaking - I've got a pretty solid
understanding of the brewing process in general.  Please note that I said
"in general", not expert, or professional, or anything else - put those
flame throwers away!!  I'm the first one to admit that I do not - nor will
I ever - know enough about brewing!  Right Gump??  ;^) )

I look forward to any and all replies, either public or private.  Now I
guess it's time to get back to the drawing board...

TIA!

Brew On & Prosit!!

Bob P.
East Haven, CT
Home of the B.I.G. (Beer Is Good!) Homebrew Club
bob_poirier at adc.com ( at work)
OR bpoirierjr at worldnet.att.net ( at home)

Life on Earth is expensive, but at least
it comes with a free trip 'round the sun!


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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 18:03:01 -0700
From: "Perle" <perle at postalzone.com>
Subject: Chill - Hot

Greetings.

    After the boiling comes the chilling , yet I cannot pump through my
    counter flow  wort chiller directly from the boiler to the fermenter.
    The wort will come out at about 90 -95 degrees.
    If I gravity feed the wort it will chill to 75 - 80 degrees.
    Pumping is faster. Time is crucial.
    Yet if I recirculate this chilled wort back into the boiler for about
3 - 5
    minutes the kettle temp will drop to about 150 degrees, then I can pump
the
    wort directly to the fermenter and the temp is 75 - 80 degrees.

    Is this bad for the wort to be chilled then diffused into the hot wort
again?

    My pump is a March MDXT it runs at 1750 rpm with 6 ft head.
    Not powerful but it is great for mash recirculation.
    The chiller is a Hearts super chiller. Zymurgy spring 96 has a nice
article.
    Thanks for any info.

     Joe at Victory Brewery of Oregon




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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:57:07 EDT
From: GuyG4 at aol.com
Subject: Rye Beer/Sightglass material

Greg Remake, from the fabulous U of Chicago writes:

"Can anyone suggest favorite commercial varieties (of rye beer) to try?  
Redhook makes an ale called Ryehook; are rye brews primarily ales or lagers?"

All I've made are ales, I think the flavor might be a bit strong for a 
lager..."classic canadian prairie pilsner", anyone?  Redhook rye is good, 
very good IMHO, but it is by no means the last word in rye beer.

" What are some of the characteristics that distinguish a rye beer?"

To me, a spiciness or astringency in the malt profile that compliments the 
hop. Rye's pretty distinctive, but if you don't know it's there, it just 
makes the beer taste really unique. 

" Some brewers claim flakes promote stuck sparges, while others blame malt.  
Most do agree, however, that over 20% rye can clog up the sparge.  What's the 
difference (if any) in the final product using malt vs. flakes?"

Rye is gooey.  Flakes will introduce more fine grained material into your 
lautertun grain stratigraphy than malt, and thus more potential for clogging. 
 Stir so it's well distributed, recirculate your sparge well, and go slow.  
If you're using a zapap-style lautertun, forget it, it will stick.  A 92F 
rest (betaglucan) will help.  My experience though indicates flake rye beers 
will eventually become crystal clear, like the one I'm drinking now, if you 
can stand to wait long enough, whereas malt beers will remain somewhat 
cloudy.  I also believe that to get the same rye charachter from malt you 
must use 1.5 lbs rye malt where you would have used 1.0 lbs. rye flakes.  Try 
'em both.

"Assuming I'll decide to brew a rye beer, does anyone have a favorite
recipe?"  

Yeah...my favorite for 5 gallons has 7 lbs Maris Otter, 1.5 lbs Munich, and 2 
lbs rye malt, hopped to about 45 IBU using about 1 oz amarillo hops(bitter) 
and 2 oz. Cascade for flavor.  Try Columbus also, the citrusy character is 
quite complimentary to rye.  Basically, if you take your stock ESB recipe and 
substitute  between 15 and 20 % rye for basemalt, you'll make a real rye 
patootkicker.  Yeast, well, don't tell anyone, but I've been using Nottingham 
and it works great, but ol wyeast 1056 will always make a dandy beer if 
you've just gotta screw around with a starter and oxygen. (tee hee!)

Others have asked about sightglasses.  For chrissakes, use teflon tubing.  It 
doesn't melt, goes into a pipe to tubing elbow connector really well, and 
yeah, it's expensive, but you're only buying a foot or two, so live a little, 
pay five bucks.  Get it at any industrial hose supplier or most large auto 
parts stores and stop screwing around.

Cheers,

Guy Gregory
GuyG4 at aol.com
Lightning Creek Home Brewery
\Spokane, WA
I don't impersonate Pat Babcock, but I wear his slogan on my back



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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:45:05 PDT
From: "Don Glass" <deglass at hotmail.com>
Subject: Two Q's on Aluminum and Grain

I am a rank but well read beginner.  I am trying to get some equipment 
together but I live in a foreign country and there just aren't any homebrew 
shops around so I have to scrounge to find all my equipment.  Anyways, I 
have been reading about buying brewpots and getting mixed signals about 
aluminum.  One text says aluminum is bad, it will give a metallic taste to 
my beer...The other text says that there is no real proof that this is true. 
  So, which is the truth....If you reply...please do not just reply which is 
better (I am not conducting a survey) Please back up your answer.  Thanks.

The other question is reguarding grain.  The grain that is used for brewing 
is malted grain, right?  Well, I think they have the malted grain here but 
it may be known by another name....are there any other names for the grains 
used for making all grain beer?  What does it look like...could someone 
explain it to me?

I realize that I am going to have to do some trial and error with the grain 
thing...but I would like to get some info....pictures on the net would help 
if anyone knows where I can find it.

thanks for your help
here's brew you,
Don


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:05:08 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: Siebel

		Enough Banch!!!
Well, I am sure that we are all having a good time, but I am amazed that
there has not yet been one question posed to any of the Siebel Staff, whose
HeadMaster Bill Siebel agreed to open the doors to questions to that
Institute from the HBD community....
	So, I would like to open the door with a question directly aimed at Mr.
Siebel....

How do you view the upcoming viability of the CraftBrewing segment in the
US? Any projections for the next 5-10 years for 1) micros...and 2) brewpubs?

Now, for a question for the technical staff....
How do you view the use of a sugar determinant, like Clinitest, in brewing?
I have heard many arguments pro/con...but would you state any opinions as to
it's applications?

I invite the HBD to send their questions to the Siebel Staff to HBD with the
"Subject Field" first word being Siebel...then your Subject.....Remember the
Siebel staff has committed to answering questions from the HBD from the 17th
through the 28th....and time is awasting!!
Cheers!
Jethro Gump

Rob Moline
brewer at isunet.net
Lallemand
jethro at isunet.net

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"



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Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 21:52:16 -0700
From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com>
Subject: counterflow chiller sanitization

OK, ive got this cool triple coil counterflow chiller made with 50' of
tubing. The question is, after cooling my brew, and rinsing, what can i
use to make sure nothing green and fuzzy will grow between uses????
Thanks,  Jerry Daoust   thedaousts at ixpres.com



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---