---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Siebel - Phytin (AJ)
  re: aluminum and grain ("Alan McKay")
  Siebel-tech question (David Rinker)
  Siebel ... Bottle-conditioning vs CP filling (Paul Shick)
  Siebel Questions (Eric.Fouch)
  Capping champagne bottles (Andrew Stavrolakis)
  Siebel Re:Malt Flavor (Biergiek)
  Siebel Qs ("Jeffrey M. Kenton")
  Re: Keg Carbonation (Pvrozanski)
  Re: malty tasting lagers (Paul Shick)
  Re: Sankey Kegs (Jeff Renner)
  Post Censored By HBD STAFF (Scott Abene)
  Siebel, MW protiens in beer (mike rose)
  Siebel question: diacetyl flavor blindness (Jeff)
  Newbie Step Mash Questions ("Ernst, Joe")
  RE: keg carbonation (LaBorde, Ronald)
  wierd keg? ("Sandlin, Jonathan Mark - BUS")
  Bottling Imperial Stout (Joy Hansen)
  Cleaning Sanke type fermenters (Joy Hansen)
  airline filters (Edward J. Basgall)
  lag times (JPullum127)
  Siebel...Acidulated sparge water? (Guy Burgess)
  Re: Schaarbeek cherries (Tim Anderson)
  Views on the future of Craft Brewing... (BillSiebel)
  Original RIMS description ("J. Doug Brown")
  Counterflow chiller sanitation ("Peter Zien")
  Siebel - Flavor Analysis, Styles ("Steve Ashton")
  Wort Chiller Efficiency vs. Pump Speed ("Brett A. Spivy")
  counterflow chiller sanitization ("Houseman, David L")


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:37:17 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Siebel - Phytin

Steve Alexander's and Rob Moline's posts in #3035 stimulated the
following question for the folks at Siebel:

Can you give some insight into to the chemical structure of
phytin/phytic acid, their reactions in wort and, if possible,
some brewing related references in the literature which discuss these
fascinating
substances?
- --
A. J. deLange
Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.




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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:13:01 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: re: aluminum and grain

Anyone who says aluminum will give a mettalic taste has
obviously never used it, and is operating on hear-say.  Get
used to it, because there is a great deal of hear-say which
gets retransmitted in brewing circles (yes, including this
one, though admittedly it's got a lot less than most).

I back up my answer with every batch of beer I've made in
the last 2 years in my 17 US gallon Alu pot.

If you tell us where "here" is, perhaps we can help further.

cheers,
 -Alan`

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
Internal : http://zftzb00d/alanmckay/
External : http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/
All opinions expressed are my own.


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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:45:09 -0400
From: David Rinker <David_Rinker at med.unc.edu>
Subject: Siebel-tech question

I submitted a version of this question about a year ago to the HBD, and
would love to have yet another brewer's input.  Here it is in a
more-concise form :)

It regards recipe scaling in genereal, and also the proportional
adjustment of specialty grains.

1)  Can extraction rates (pts/lb/gal)  for base malts be extrapolated
linearly when the amount of grain involved increases significantly (like
doubling or tripling a 5-gal recipe)?  I have read that larger mashes
are generally more-efficient than smaller ones even when water to grist
ratios are kept constant.

2)  If I'm trying to double a recipe how should I adjust the specialty
grains?  For example, if I double the pale malt in my brown ale, can I
simply double the chocolate malt and expect the flavor profile of the
larger batch to be the same as that of the smaller batch?

Many thanks,

David Rinker





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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:45:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Paul Shick <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
Subject: Siebel ... Bottle-conditioning vs CP filling


Hello all,

	A quick question for the Siebel folks:  do you have
any hard data on the shelf life of bottle conditioned versus
counter-pressure filled beers?  Are the bottle-conditioned more
likely to live through heat/agitation (like shipping to a
summer competition) than CP?  Thanks in advance for any help.

	Thanks also to Rob for setting up this unique opportunity.

   			Paul Shick 
 			Basement brewing in Cleveland Hts OH

 



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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:43:00 -0400
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Siebel Questions

HBD-
OK.  Fred is hog tied and ball gagged in the back (from last nights bachelor
party), so he won't offend or embarrass The Siebel crew or the HBD.

Some questions for the Seibel masters, pulled form old HBD's:

>From September 1998:

HBD-	
I have not received any response to my query of the possibility of "FWH"
effects from spent hops from a previous batch:
FWH a barleywine, and after the boil, dump those hops into the second brews'
boil.  Will any FWH characteristics carry over?
Could it be that I'm the first homebrewer to do this? What are the copyright
and marketing implications of divulging new brewing techniques to an
electronic forum?
But seriously, folks- has anyone done this before, or thought about it?  Seems
to me, the low temps of sparging  fix the aroma components (as I understand
it).  The first boil won't extract them all.  Could they be extracted in the
second boil?  I also queried a while back about the possibilities of "First
Wort Spicing"- adding spices (such as coriander) to the first runnings.
Different chemistry, but could their be a similar effect?  Especially if you
"FWS", and FWH concurrently?  I have tried this with a Wit- FWH with .5 oz
Cascades (out of style, I know) and FWS with 1 Tbs crushed coriander.  It's
still in the secondary.

>From February 1998:

HBD-
I haven't been able to find any information on Wyeast 3942, Belgian
Wheat.  What are the characteristics of this yeast?  Does it like to use
ferulic
acid?  Should it be treated like German wheat yeasts, or is it not really a
clove or estery developing yeast strain?

Todays fresh question-
I spiced a wit with 3gm each of coriander, cardomom, lemon peel and lemon
grass.
After 15 days in the primary, when I bottled, I got what I first thought was
autolysis.  Upon further review, it is definately a spicey character:  It
smells kind of rubbery, and meaty in the aroma, but tastes OK.  Not great, but
not how it smells (thankfully).  I know overuse of or using old coriander can
cause this.  Does the same apply to cardomom?  I got it from a bin at the bulk
food store, don't know how old it is.  Did I use too much?

Eric Fouch
"Pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space,
'cause there's bugger-all down here on Earth!"
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood, MI

PS- Thank's for gracing our forum with your presence.  I would have posted
questions sooner, but I thought you wouldn't appear until the 24th.


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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:45:56 -0400
From: Andrew Stavrolakis <andrew_stavrolakis at harvard.edu>
Subject: Capping champagne bottles


I'm a little behind reading the HBD, but there have been some references
lately to capping champagne bottles, American or otherwise.  It brings to
mind a discovery I made a couple of weeks ago after three years of brewing
(and capping).  It seems that the ubiquitous two handle, bright red, capper
has reversable jaws that allow it to grip the much wider neck of a champagne
bottle.

Just when you think you know it all....

Andrew.

andrew_stavrolakis at harvard.edu



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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:46:06 EDT
From: Biergiek at aol.com
Subject: Siebel Re:Malt Flavor

In a message dated 5/19/99, 1:51:57 PM, Biergiek writes:
<<There has been some discussion of late regarding beer flavor.  One flavor 
aspect I have not yet been able to produce is a malt flavor in my Bavarian 
style lagers.  I do know the difference between malty, sweet, and caramely 
(is this a word?).  I think what most homebrewers refer to as malty is really 
caramely (from crystal malts) or sweet.  If this flavor is confusing then you 
need to eat some chocolate malt balls to get an idea of what the malt flavor 
is that I am talking about ("he said balls, ha ha ha").  Anyway, how can I 
achieve this malt flavor that I often taste in imported German lagers?  I 
have tried the usual techniques to achieve malt flavor with no success:

1) Yeast Strain:  I have used the common Wyeast strains Munich Lager, 
Bavarian Lager, and Czech Lager.  

2)  Using imported German Munich malt as the base malt, and adding Melanoidin 
malt.

3)  Decoction mashing and pressure cooking.

4)  Extended lagering.

Is a malty flavor in my German lagers unachievable at the homebrewing level, 
is this even too difficult for Dr. Pivo or Fred Garvin?  Please help!

Kyle
Bakersfield, CA>>


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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:56:01 -0500
From: "Jeffrey M. Kenton" <jkenton at iastate.edu>
Subject: Siebel Qs

Thanks, Rob for reminding me to ask these questions:

On sparge water, is there a quantifiable advantage to acidifying the sparge
water? Also, what temp should I try to maintain in the grain bed while
running-off?

On maltiness, what are some tips for homebrewers (making an initial foray
into a malty style, like double bock) to get good malty flavors. I also
want to keep the IBUs respectable (within style).

Thanks

Jeff
Jeff Kenton

If you can't be nice, at least have the decency to be vague.


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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:00:37 -0500
From: Pvrozanski at ra.rockwell.com
Subject: Re: Keg Carbonation

You failed to say what style of beer you are planning to force carbonate but
your 12psi  at  42-44F could be a little low for most beer styles. There are
definite volumes of carbonation you want to aim for depending on style. You can
find the table that shows the correct psi depending upon temperature to achieve
the desired volume of Co2.

The method you describe of just letting the keg sit will work. However it takes
about 2 weeks for the Co2 to be absorbed into the beer. The resulting
carbonation is acceptable.  Shaking the keg is faster although from what I've
heard the bubbles are large, kind of like soda pop. Not exactly what you want in
 beer. I use a sintered stainless steel stone, called oddly enough "The Stone",
to force carbonate. It gives probably the finest carbonation and works over
night. The stone is a little pricy, around $25, but I find that it does the best
 and most reliable job.




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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:04:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Paul Shick <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
Subject: Re: malty tasting lagers


Hello all,

	Kyle from Bakersfield CA asks about getting the elusive
"German malty taste" in his lagers, having tried most of the 
suggested approaches.  Kyle, maybe the problem you're having is
with your technique.  I've noticed that my beers always end up
with a stronger malt profile when I run off from the mash tun 
quickly and sparge fairly minimally.  This isn't quite as extreme 
as the no-sparge approach, but I think that it uses the same principle
and avoids the tannins that mask the malty flavor you're after.  It 
does involve adding 10-15% more grist to the grain bill, but that's
a small price to pay.  The only real downside is that this lowers
your apparent efficiency dramatically, and you can't take part in 
the "I got 97% efficiency this batch" debates.

   			Paul Shick 
 			Basement brewing in Cleveland Hts OH



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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:33:16 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Sankey Kegs

jslusher <jslusher at flash.net> asks about kegging in Sankeys, and especially
about cleaning them.  I just posted this a month ago or so, but since
traffic is low, I'll repost.  I find this easy enough to do that I haven't
looked into CIP as Jon Sandlin asks about.  I like to be able to see inside.

I've been kegging in Sankeys about 18 years.  First, *release all pressure*
by pressing down on the ball valve or you'll get your teeth full of a heavy
valve and draw tube assembly when you release it.  Hold a rag over it or
you will get a face full of stale beer.  Then, using a small screwdriver,
pry out the flat retaining ring.  Next, using the jaws of a pair of pliers
as a tool, turn the valve to the left maybe 30 degrees, and lift it out.
It takes less time to do it than to describe it.  Soak the inside with
bleach water for a few hours and boil the valve/drawtube to sanitize it.
Rinse, fill with beer, reverse the above steps,  The hard part is
re-installing the flat retaining ring.  You have to press down to compress
th O-ring (which is under the valve).  To do this, I put a plumbing part
called a reducing coupler (I think 3/4" to 1/2")) on top of the valve, hook
a board under the lip of the keg top, across the coupler as a fulcrum, and
sit on the other end.  Then I force the ring into its slot by twisting a
wide screwdriver blade in the gap against the coupler until it's home.  It
takes me about 30 seconds.  You'll need to get a tap, of course.  I keg
about half of my beers in these, the rest in 5 gallon Cornelius (soda)
canisters, which have the advantage of being easier to fill and seal, using
cheaper taps, and taking up less room in the fridge.  Of course, they hold
less.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 07:26:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Abene <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Post Censored By HBD STAFF

This post has been censored for your protection.

 -The HBD STAFF 


===
ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT
Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>
http://skotrat.dynip.com/skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)

"This Space Currently for Rent... Inquire within"
_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com


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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 07:28:26 -0700
From: mike rose <mrose at ucr.campuscw.net>
Subject: Siebel, MW protiens in beer

Rob, Siebel, or the collective;
    There has been an on and off thread about using low dextrin's and
high MW proteins to get
a more refined body and mouthfeel in beer. What is your opinion of this?
What base malt
(brand) or adjuncts do you recommend? Other than staying away from a
122F rest, any
changes in the mash?
                                                    Thank you,
                                                            Michael
Rose    mrose at ucr.campuscw.net



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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:36:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff)
Subject: Siebel question: diacetyl flavor blindness

Hi All (and especially the folks from Siebel),

  Ever since I first started brewing, I have been trying to learn to
recognize the various aromas and flavors in beer.

  To make a long story much shorter, I have pretty much convinced 
myself that I am unable to detect diacetyl in beer (no, I do not wish
to revive the recent thread on whether it is desirable or not).

  My homebrew club organized a doctored beer session last week using
the guidelines in "Evaluating Beer" by Charley Papazian.  During this
session we doctored Miller Genuine Draft with various substances to
train ourselves to be able to recognize common beer flavors and aromas.
For the diacetyl spiking we used the artificial butter flavoring found
in grocery stores (McCormack brand I think).

  At the various levels suggested in the book, I was unable to detect
diacetyl in either the aroma or flavor.  Only after adding *way* more of
the artificial butter flavoring was I able to detect it in the aroma.  I
never really detected it in the flavor, although at the much higher level
I did note an increase in sweetness and mouthfeel.

  Is there anything I can do about this apparent blindness to diacetyl
aroma and flavor?

  Might my fairly severe allergies (and related sinus problems) have
anything to do with this problem detecting diacetyl?  Note that I did'nt
really have any problems with any other substances besides diacetyl.

                                               Hoppy brewing,

                                               Jeff


==========================================================================

Geoffrey A. McNally                  Phone:  (401) 832-1390
Mechanical Engineer                  Fax:    (401) 832-7250
Naval Undersea Warfare Center        email:
Systems Development Branch              mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Code 8321; Bldg. 1246/2              WWW:
Newport, RI  02841-1708                 http://www.nuwc.navy.mil/


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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:52:47 -0500
From: "Ernst, Joe" <joee at gasullivan.com>
Subject: Newbie Step Mash Questions

Hello Collective,

I've been asked by my father in law to make this American Premium Pilsner
from Cats Meow.
This will be my 3rd all-grain beer, but my first with a stepped mash.  My
lauter/sparge tun
is a SS brewpot with a false bottom, my heat source is an outdoor propane
cooker.  The
comments within the recipe are not mine, but those of the recipe's author.

> Ingredients:
> 6 lbs Lager malt (I use 2-row, but 6-row is appropriate for the amount of
adjuncts) 
> 1 lb Mild ale malt 
> 1 lb Rice 
> 1/2 lb Flaked barley 
> 1 lb Flaked maize 
> 4 oz Malto-dextrin powder 
>  
> Nottingham Ale yeast (dry -- I know, I NEVER use dry yeast...) or Wyeast
#2112 California Lager (optional) 
> 
> Procedure:
> Boil rice for 30 minutes and add grains and water for mash --
> First rest at 94F for 30 minutes to help breakdown the adjuncts --
> Raise temp to 122F for 30 minutes for protein degradation --
> Raise temp to 140F for 15 minutes for better head retention and clarity --
> Raise temp to 153F for 45 minutes for starch conversion --
> Raise temp to 158F for 20 minutes for complete conversion --
> Mashout at 168F for 10 minutes -- Sparge w/168F water at < 6 pH --

I have several questions regarding mash procedure:

How much water should be boiled with the rice, and how much, if any, of that
water should be
figured in as part of the strike water volume?

How do I calculate strike water volume and temp to hit the first 94F rest?
I will be
combining 210-212F rice/water with 8.5 lbs grain at 70F. 

At each step, should I infuse boiling water to step up the temp or apply
direct heat?

If I should infuse, do I hold back some of the initial strike water for this
purpose, or
should I add more water at each step?  

Finally, any comments on the appropriateness or necessity or purpose of the
rests and times are appreciated!

Thank you!
Joe Ernst
Joe's Garage Brewhouse
joee at gasullivan.com
Private email ok


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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:41:25 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: keg carbonation

>From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>

>many prefer to shake the keg and add from 20
>to 40 psi of co2 at anywhere from room temp to near freezing.  Others tend
>to put the keg in the fridge, hook normal dispense pressure up to it, and
>forget about it. 

>Although I'm sure both provide adequate carbonation, I'd tend to side with
>the latter camp.  As convenience goes, it beats the hell out of shaking a
>full corny, and as far as consistency of carbonation, it seems to be the
>most reliable alternative.

I tend to prefer the former, shaking with a low temp (35F) only requires a
few minutes at 30 PSIG, this is no real problem for me.  With my fridge
setup, I normally do not leave pressure on the kegs at all times, I pressure
up to 10-12 PSIG, then serve beer until I have noticeably low flow, then
connect and run up again to 10-12 PSIG.

The reason I do this is:

    * I just do not trust the keg seals, hose seals, etc. for not leaking,
and one can loose one's CO2 easily over a week or so if not careful.

    * I do not have an easy way to run the hose into the fridge, without
drilling holes for passage.  I do not like to put the gas cylinder in the
fridge because of space limitations, moisture condensation, and temp
variations all involved with this method.

>if higher-psi shaking is the way to go, how do you get
>the keg to back itself down to my expected 12 psi dispense pressure without
>venting the keg and creating a foamy mess?

One can vent the keg without creating a foamy mess, just do it with the gas
in valve.  I just depress for a few seconds until I HEAR 12 PSIG.   :>))

>Lastly, for those of you who have tried both, which in your opinion gives
>the best foam retention (or is there a difference at all) ??

Dunno.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:00:54 -0700
From: "Sandlin, Jonathan Mark - BUS" <SANJM304 at bus.orst.edu>
Subject: wierd keg?

	I just bought a straight sided 1/2 barrel keg where the top assembly
does not have a retaining ring.  Does one just screw the top out?  On the
bottom it says Firestone.  I have another sanke keg that has a retaining
ring.  What is the difference, do I need a special tool to take it apart?
If I just have to screw it out, what direction do I turn it in?  Thanks in
advance for your help.

Jon Sandlin
Corvallis, OR



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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:31:08 -0400
From: joytbrew at halifax.com (Joy Hansen)
Subject: Bottling Imperial Stout


From: Matt Birchfield <peridot at usit.net>

"A few questions about bottling my Imperial Stout ...

1-How long should it ferment in the secondary; Should it be aged in
bulk or in bottles? (Brewed it on May 1st and racked to secondary May
8th when vigorous fermentation subsided)"


My experience: There isn't a specific time in the secondary.  It can stay
there as long as you need.  I've had brew at this alcohol level in the
secondary for several months.

"2-How much sugar should I use for carbonation, and will I need extra
yeast when priming?"


My experience:  IMHO, high alcohol brews require much higher carbonation
levels than do low alcohol brews.  I don't know the specific volumes;
however, I up the sugar to at least one cup / 5 gallons provided that the
yeast pitched with it can handle the alcohol content.  If not, just force
carbonate the brew.  Most likely not to style; however, I love a thick
creamy head on these strong brews.  Hard to make; however, that's the way I
like them.


"3-At what temperatures should it be conditioned and stored, and how
long should conditioning take?"

My experience is that 2 weeks to a month is necessary for these high gravity
brews stored at summer room temperatures.  If it doesn't have substantial
carbonation after two week, you can be that Mr.. Murphy has his hand in the
brew.  Keep this brew around for an extended period before consuming to let
the complexity and smoothness develop.

"This batch's OG was 1.092, and is my first attempt at anything over
1.065, so any help will be greatly appreciated."


As long as the final gravity get down to 15 or so, I think you'll be OK.
What type of yeast did you use and what is it's alcohol tolerance?  9.5% to
10.5% is a real kick in the pants and is much more stable than lager type
brews.  Personally, I like to brew barley wines, strong Scotch ales, strong
Belgian ales, and imperial stouts, leaving the lesser brews to Bud and
Miller!  Of course, there's a lot to be said for Samuel Adams Summer Ale.
And Celis White .  .  .


                                              Joy"T"Brew



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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:02:49 -0400
From: joytbrew at halifax.com (Joy Hansen)
Subject: Cleaning Sanke type fermenters


Jonathan Sandlin wrote:

"I plan to start doing my primary, seconadary and serving in 1/2 barrel
sanke
kegs.  I am curious if it is possible to clean and sanitize without taking
the keg apart.  I plan to fill the keg through the tap with P.B.W and let
sit over night.  After that, I will empty the keg with CO2 pressure and then
add Star San the same way.  Will this work?  I hate taking the kegs apart,
and I can ferment in them by letting the gas escape through the out hose of
the tap.  Any criticisms or ideas would be greatly appreciated."

Hi Jon,

I think I posted a remedy for your use of the sanke as a fermenter.  Maybe
not as it may have gone private.  Anyway, I don't think it's practical to
try CIP of an unopened sanke used as a fermenter.  I assume that you plan to
use a sanke tap to release gas pressure during fermentation.  I have strong
feeling that you shouldn't limit your gas escape to a single exit.  You may
exceed the pressure limits of the sanke if the tap becomes clogged.   The
commercial cleaning systems are only intended to remove stale brew, not
brewing gunk!

I recommend removing the siphon tube and installing a rubber stopper type
blowoff tube (at least 1 inch clear PVC).  This arrangement is difficult at
best to get a seal.  The seal isn't essential; however, I use the blow off
bubble rate to monitor the rate and completion of fermentation.  I found
that cleaning a fermenter is difficult and that the brushing required to be
sure all the gunk is removed is nearly impossible through the sanke opening.

I opted to remove the sanke opening and install a corny lid in its place.  I
drilled and cut the original fitting out, shaped the final opening to fit
the corny lid, hammered the top of the sanke as smooth as possible yet fit
as close as possible to the corny lid.  Then, I use a William's Brewing
corny closure "O" ring.  This "O" ring is larger in diameter and soft so it
conforms to the many imperfections of the fabricated opening in the sanke.
I leave the safety release in the corny lid and then drill a hole about 1
inch in diameter to accept a blow off tube.  This approach requires a
nitride tipped drill bit, a bimetal fine tooth saber saw, and a high speed
rotary file (in an electric drill or a LARGE dremel).  An anvil that can be
slipped into the opening for hammering the opening flat is critical.  It
takes a lot of fiddling; however, it's an inexpensive and workable means of
fermenting in a half barrel sanke.

Cleaning is easy since I can use hot PBW and a little elbow by reaching
inside the keg to clean the gunk.  Sanitation is accomplished with Star San.
The lid and "O" ring is soaked in Star San until time for closure and the
keg is allowed to drain for some time before use.  For run off into the keg
from the brew kettle through the chiller, I use paper towels which have been
soaked in Star San to help keep the floaty vermin out of the fermenter.

I'm learning TIG and silver solder technique and I may attempt to fix a
large  portion of the corny top to the sanke top.






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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:39:05 -0500
From: ejb11 at psu.edu (Edward J. Basgall)
Subject: airline filters

Hi Fred,
Saw your post on the HBD re: using .45um filters when aerating....

I have about 50 - in line, .2um airline filters with barbed hose connectors
on both ends. Autoclaveable or steam sterilizeable.  Designed for air/gas
filtering (NOT FOR LIQUIDS).  I use 'em on hand pump vents, aquarium pump
aerators....   For more info, see our homebrew club website at:

http://rayleigh.chem.psu.edu/scum/980108.filter.html

Feel free to pass this info on to your friends.

I will sell them 2 for $10.00, includes postage for unsterile ones and
 2 for $15.00 for pre-sterilized (autoclaved) ones.

cheers
ed
State College Underground Maltsters (SCUM)




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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:14:36 EDT
From: JPullum127 at aol.com
Subject: lag times

i'm curious about how people are getting these ultra-short lag times. i have 
used a variety of ale yeasts, used large starters, even the yeast cake from a 
secondary, and tried bubbling pure 02 through the cooled wort. i still am 
averaging 16-18 hours before i see any activity and then usually have an inch 
or so of foam within 2-4 hours after that. the beers all taste fine so this 
isn't  really a problem but i would like to see one of these 2-3 hours  
starts sometime.   thamks   marc


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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:12:35 -0500
From: Guy Burgess <orientalwok at fuse.net>
Subject: Siebel...Acidulated sparge water?

Given a slightly basic water source of say 7.2-7.5, is it common
practice to acidify sparge water?

Might this allow a higher sparge temperature, better extraction, and/or
less astringency?

The bottom line is, of course, will it make a better beer?

Thank you
Guy Burgess




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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:27:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tim Anderson <timator at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Schaarbeek cherries

Gerard Dolmans said this here:
>>>
Hi!
Would the person interested in getting and propogating Schaarbeek 
cherries please get a hold of me.  I was intrigued by your post so I 
put my Father (a retired farmer who lives in the Netherlands) and my 
Uncle (a landscape architect in Holland) on the case, both beer 
lovers which helps.   I have some leads that may be interesting to 
you.  TIA.  
<<<

Please share with the group!  I can't be the only person who cares. 
(I'm not the one who posted the question.)  In that spirit, a gardening
friend of a friend in Belgium said they were "Prunus cerasus L." 
According to my Sunset Western Gardening book, that narrows it down to
any varietiy of pie cherries.  I'm hoping for something more specific.

tim

_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com


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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:11:59 EDT
From: BillSiebel at aol.com
Subject: Views on the future of Craft Brewing...

Rob Moline has posted a wide open question to me:

"How do you view the upcoming viability of the CraftBrewing segment in the
US? Any projections for the next 5-10 years for 1) micros...and 2) brewpubs?"

Craftbrewing has gone through a great growth period in what has been a very 
stagnant decade for the brewing industry as a whole. But I think the next ten 
years will see consolidation in the Craft segment while, at the same time, we 
will see growth come back to brewing in general. Demographic changes are a 
leading factor in this turnaround. During the last decade many baby boomers 
moved into their 40's and early 50's. As people age they tend to drink less 
than they did in their 20's (though I try to keep up my share). So this 
trend, along with increased health consciousness and social awareness of 
drinking and driving, caused the per capita consumption in this country to 
drop enough to counter the general growth in the total population. But this 
year is a turning point. The baby boomers are not going to cut back much more 
on their drinking and, more importantly, their children are approaching the 
legal drinking age. This year we are bottoming out on the number of 21-26 
year olds... about 20.8 million in all. But by the year 2011 the total is 
expected to rise to 25.2 million, more than a 20% increase.

The past models have anticipated that this would result in an average annual 
growth in beer volume to be 1.5% through 2010. This may not sound like much, 
but with the miracle of compound growth, this would indicate a growth of just 
over 40 million barrels per year in that time period to a total annual volume 
approaching 230 million barrels. However the better news is that the old 
models have been underestimating beer sales in the last three or so years, 
enough so that Robert S. Weinberg, noted industry economist, has prepared a 
new model that now expects growth to total about 54 million barrels before 
2010.

All right so far but what does that mean for Craft Brewing? Craft Brewing has 
flattened out in the last two years. But it is more of a consolidation. A 
number of good breweries are growing at a great rate. Others are losing 
business and going out of business. Craft breweries as a whole are doing 
about 5.6 million barrels of business, about 3% of the market. But this 
segment is just a part of the "high priced beer" segment that also includes 
imports. Imported beers have, and still are, growing at a rate of about 15% 
per year and their volumes now total 16.5 million barrels... about three 
times the size of Craft Beers. Of course the larger brands are supported by a 
lot of advertising which many craft brewers can't afford.

But what is good news is not only that the overall beer market is going to 
grow, but it is expected that the high priced segment will also grow from 
about 12% of the market to about 18% of the market. So with market growth and 
segment growth the volume of high priced beers is expected to go from about 
22 million barrels in 1998 to about 47 million barrels by 2010. So there is 
room for everyone who makes a good, consistent beer to share in this growth.

I'll take the second part of Rob's question first. Brewpubs. There are over 
900 of them now producing just over 700,000 barrels of beer. There is no 
reason that if a brewpub is in a decent location and runs a good restaurant 
with good food and service that they should not do well. There is also no 
reason that any well run restaurant that sells a fair amount of beer could 
not also support its own brewery. So there is no reason that good 
restauranteurs and brewers working together, with proper financing, should 
not be able to open many more brewpubs. I don't know what an upper limit 
would be, that depends on the number of entrepreneurs who make good plans and 
decide to move forward on them. But, for the sake of argument, lets say that 
the number of pubs more than triples to 3,000 or so. At that level I would 
expect them to produce 2.0-2.5 million barrels of beer. These pubs would 
actually be more in competition with other restaurants than with other 
breweries, especially non-pub packaging breweries. And this many pubs would 
not be taking any business away from packaging breweries, large or small. I 
would guess that half the beer they sell would not be sold if the pub were 
not there. The customers would be at another restaurant or at home and might 
have a Coke or wine or other type of drink. And I believe the other half of 
beer they sell does not take away from the rest of the market either. For 
those who go to pubs gain a greater appreciation for beer and interest in 
beer. For each beer they drink at a pub they likely buy more at the store to 
take home. Therefore I see a good future for pubs, so long as they run a good 
restaurant with good food and service in a good location.

Packaging microbreweries are another story. They compete in a wider market 
that, as of a year or two ago, has supply catching up to and surpassing 
demand. There are over 400 packaging microbreweries out there but only about 
80 over 5,000 barrels per year and maybe about 20 over 30,000 barrels per 
year. I believe in the future it will be hard for breweries under 20-30,000 
barrels to be competitive enough to survive in the long run. And being a 
fourth generation Siebel at the Siebel Institute, by long run I mean to 
survive an intergenerational change.

Now let's look back at the expected size of the high priced beer segment in 
2010: 47 million barrels. Imports won't go away and the large domestic 
brewers will also make beers for this segment. The total market segment is 
expected to do slightly better that double. Let's say that Craft Beers do 
better than the market and more than triple to 18 million barrels. Of this 
you have at least 2 million barrels from pubs. Then the top five Craft 
Brewers will likely have another 3 million barrels. This leaves another 13 
million barrels for everyone else. If you buy my assumption that it will be 
hard for those under 30,000 barrels to compete in the long run, and go with 
my assumption that most Craft Brewers will find a happy home under 100,000 
barrels, then the average size of these brewers will be about 65,000 barrels 
per year. Divide that into 13,000,000 and you get 200, plus the five large 
ones, and that gives you a total of 205 packaging craft brewers being the 
long range sustainable number using this analysis. And right now the total is 
more than 400. This is not to say that new ones cannot enter and succeed. It 
will just be harder. This is also not to say that a few cannot survive at 
smaller levels of production. But it is less likely.

Craft Brewing should be alive and well in the future but the face will change 
somewhat. It will be the more professional brewer that will survive in the 
competitive field of packaging and retail sales. And the good restauranteurs 
will be able to do quite well with an ever larger number of pubs. But they 
all will need beer loving customers... go do your share!

Cheers,

Bill Siebel
Siebel Institute of Technology
4055 W. Peterson Avenue
Chicago, IL 60646
773-279-0966 x110
BillSiebel at siebelinstitute.com


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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:02:39 +0000
From: "J. Doug Brown" <jbrown at labyrinth.net>
Subject: Original RIMS description

Hello again,
  Does anybody know were I can find a description of and any updates to
Rodney Morris' RIMS unit.  I have been searching the web, but have been
unable to find anything other than references to a old Zymergy article. 
I would like to find a web version if possible.  Thanks for all replies
to my previous questions about my RIMS design and a Corona clone.  The
Corona clone was not a joke, I do like the flavor of a cold Corona,
however without the lime.  After the many responses about how they
intentionally skunk their beer, I am not so sure I wish to make any.

 Thanks again
   Doug Brown
- -- 
       --------------------------------------------------------
      /       J. Doug Brown             Sr. Software Engineer  \
     <     jbrown at labyrinth.net            jbrown at ewa.com       >
      \ http://www.labs.net/jbrown       http://www.ewa.com    /
       --------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:34:27 -0700
From: "Peter Zien" <PZ.JDZINC at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Counterflow chiller sanitation

Jerry,

Cleaning and sanitizing a counterflow chiller is a bit trickier than an
immersion chiller, and a lot more important since your beer actually flows
through the coils.   Here's the regiment that I employ:

1)  Prior to brew day, set up the brew kettle and racking cane to run
through the wort chiller.   I use a hose clamp on the wort chiller's outflow
hose.   Then fill the kettle with 5 gallons of warm water and either PBW or
One-Step (others may work well also; I've tried these two).

2)  Start the siphon, drawing sanitiation solution through the racking cane
and wort chiller.   When the solution is flowing from the wort chiller,
clamp it off for 15 minutes.    Then resume the flow of solution.   When you
feel the warmer water once again coming out of the wort chiller, clamp it
off for an additional 15 minutes.

3)  Repeat holding the solution in the coils as often as necessary.

4)  On brew day (and with my  water heater raised to "C", very hot), I run
hot water through the wort chiller for 15 minutes prior to use.

5)  After use, immediately rinse the wort chiller with cool, and then hot,
water for 10 minutes.   Cover exposed inlet and outlet ports with aluminum
foil.

After every 5 or so batches, I also run diluted white vinegar through the
wort chiller prior to running the PBW or One Step through.   Although One
Step claims to not need rinsing, I can't get myself to trust their claim!

For a good way to see how "clean" you're brewing, try covering your
hydrometer sample and see how long it takes to spontaneously ferment.   You
need to use a sanitized hydrometer and sample jar, and take care to keep it
covered with Saran Wrap to prevent the airborne yeast from invading.    If
your hydrometer sample begins fermenting after a day or two, you're not
brewing "clean" enough.

Good luck!
Peter Zien



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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:19:49 -0400
From: "Steve Ashton" <sashton at metlife.com>
Subject: Siebel - Flavor Analysis, Styles



Can you tell us about the various classes you offer related to flavor analysis.
Do you or would you consider a homebrew level course on the origins of flavors
in beer?

Recently there has been a lot of discussion relating to styles and whether or
not they are meaningful. Clubs are even starting to have No-style competitions.
Can you give us an idea of what Siebel teaches in terms of styles to its
students or what the school philosophy is in regard to style?

Steven Ashton






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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 08:33:41 -0500
From: "Brett A. Spivy" <baspivy at softdisk.com>
Subject: Wort Chiller Efficiency vs. Pump Speed

"Perle" wrote:

I cannot pump through my
    counter flow  wort chiller directly from the boiler to the
fermenter.
    The wort will come out at about 90 -95 degrees.

It seems what you really need is colder water running through the
"jacket".  I have just completed a counterflow chiller based on fitting
I got from The Beerslayer and tested it.  It works great for normal fall
/ winter / most of spring tap water temperaturs, but in the hot
Louisiana summers the water table heats up considerably.  I have (after
testing with boing water and a Testo precision thermometer) decided to
add a three coil, 1" OD, copper "pre-cooler".  hose goes from the tap
into the sink (where the coil is laying under an opened bag of ice),
then to the chiller jacket, through the jacket to the outlet hose which
leads back to the sink to the drain.

Do you think this would work for your situation?

Brett




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Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:48:27 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: counterflow chiller sanitization

I've been using my counter flow chiller for 3 years without a problem (knock
on wood).  While I'm mashing (or boiling) I bring 5 gallons of water to a
boil and run that boiling water through the CFC in the reverse direction
that I put hot wort through.  I retain the water and then when I'm finished
using the CFC, I bring that water back to a boil (it's usually still pretty
warm so I'm saving some $$) and run that again through the CFC.  This
results in storing a rinsed and sanitized chiller.  Once a year I put PBW
solution in the chiller, then rinse it out, to get rid of any deposits on
the walls.  To keep the CFC sanitary inside, I bought two solid rubber
stoppers (hardware store) and put a hole 1/2 way through each that was just
big enough that they can be used as end caps for the 1/4" copper tubing of
my CFC.  I boil these with the water each time I boil water to put through
the CFC and then place them on the ends to keep anything from getting into
the line.


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---