---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Siebel ("Rob Moline")
  Rennerian Coordinates (mike rose)
  Malt flavor in beer (mike rose)
  Jethro Gump on AHA Board (Paul Gatza)
  Kunze (Bryan Gros)
  Yeast strain's affect on head retention ("WILLIAM R. SIEBEL")
  CO2 toxicity and it's relevance to small scale brewing ("WILLIAM R. SIEBEL")
  Yeast Questions ("WILLIAM R. SIEBEL")
  Re: sour cherries (Spencer W Thomas)
  Siebel response to responses on position on HSA (Radzan1000)
  Summer Cap-Off '99 ("RANDY ERICKSON")
  proper technique(was sodium propionate) (Jim Liddil)
  Pilot Brewery Questions ("WILLIAM R. SIEBEL")
  Re: Schaarbeek Cherries (WayneM38)
  RE: Carboys are dangerous and related tales of woe ("Perle")
  Siebel: Break Removal (Dean Fikar)
  17th Annual Oregon Homebrew Festival Results ("Mark Kowalski")
  hacker pshorr recipe ("Anthony & Julie Brown")
  Re: Basement brewery recmmendations (David Sherfey)
  Re: New Brewery & Foam ("Arnold J. Neitzke")
  Ebullometry Revisited ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Bavarian Malt bills ("Alan McKay")
  Basement Brewery Response's - Thank You!!! ("Carmen J. Salvatore")
  Carboys are dangerous ("Peter J. Calinski")
  H.B.D.: can we put H.S.A. to B.E.D.? ("Dr. Pivo")
  Re: Siebel amswer to t d hamann - subject: grist to liquor (Matthew Comstock)
  Siebel, question (mike rose)
  Siebel question - pressure fermenting lagers (Nathan Kanous)
  Re: hot side aeration/oxidation (Matthew Arnold)
  Do you have a Red Hook Double Black Recipe? ("Dave Blaine")
  Re: Kunze ("Stephen Alexander")
  recipe formulation ("Russ Hobaugh")
  Seibel: Decoction mashing (Steve Jackson)
  Boneyard Brew-Off 2nd Notice ("Brian J. Paszkiet")
  moldy polyclar ("Stephen Alexander")


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

2000 MCAB Qualifiers: Boneyard Brew-Off 6/12/99
(http://www.uiuc.edu/ro/BUZZ/contest5.html);  Buzz-Off! 
Competition 6/26/99 (http://www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:56:17 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: Siebel

			Siebel
	Gentlemen, and GentleBrewsters....
I think we owe our guests and mentors, the honored men and women from the
Siebel Institute, a grand round of applause......
To my mind, this has been unparalleled....the convergence of the best minds
in the professional world of brewing with the best minds, and the most eager
beginners, of the amateur brewing community....
To paraphrase Laurel Maney, I think that the world of professionals has been
as impressed with the quality of thought from the homebrewing community, as
the home brewing community has been with the quality of information that the
pro's so freely give....
So, as a close to the Siebel participation in our world, I offer my
thanks....You folks are the best...and doing what you have done...only
proves it.....

In conversation with Mr. Siebel, the door remains open for this to become an
annual event....time will tell....

But some doors have to be shut eventually....and I suggest that any
questions to the Digest for Siebel, that aren't posted by the Friday, May
28th edition, will simply have to be asked next year...if we haven't worn
them out, and they agree to visit with us again.....

But as far as I am concerned, we can not even begin to thank them enough...

Rob



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Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:24:41 -0700
From: mike rose <mrose at ucr.campuscw.net>
Subject: Rennerian Coordinates



> > Jason Henning
> > Big Red Alchemy and Brewing
> > Clawson, MI - I'm going to be (0,0) Rennerian Tuesday or Wednesday night
>
> Scott writes
> This kind of sloppiness cannot be tolerated.  There's no way you can
> prescribe your Rennerian location using two coordinates.  Even
> assuming a mapping onto the surface of the earth, altitude differences
> must still be accounted for.  Of course there's also time ("he was
> here a minute ago").

I agree. The current system does not take into account
all relevant information. I suggest the following format;

                            (0,0) 6:00pm, Pale ale,  Rennerian

I think Jeff can shorten his to        (0,0) CAP

                                            Mike Rose  (~50,~100)thirsty







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Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:29:34 -0700
From: mike rose <mrose at ucr.campuscw.net>
Subject: Malt flavor in beer

>Kyle wants to achieve more malt flavor in his beer.

Kyle,
    I have had this problem for some time. You probably
have all the malt flavor, but you're probably lacking the mouthfeel
that causes different flavors to be highlighted.
The malt (or whatever flavor that I'm looking for) is dull and blended
in my beers.
I think it has to do with a lack of protein creating the proper
mouthfeel
and separation of the different flavors involved. I have seen several
posts
on this recently but haven't seen any solutions.

                                 I share your frustration,
                                              Mike Rose,
mrose at ucr.campuscw.net




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Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:41:46 -0600
From: Paul Gatza <paulg at aob.org>
Subject: Jethro Gump on AHA Board

The American Homebrewers Association is pleased to welcome Rob Moline to
the AHA Board of Advisers. Rob recently won the election by AHA members
to the open Board of Advisers slot. In accordance with the AHA Board of
Adviser bylaws, Rob's term is three years. Rob has worked on several
projects with us in the past, and we look forward to his increased input
to improve the AHA and promote the hobby of homebrewing. Thanks go out
to all AHA members who voted in the election and the other
candidates--all of whom are well qualified in my opinion. In accordance
with the bylaws, there will be four several board positions up for
election each year from here on out. 
- -- 
Paul Gatza
Director
American Homebrewers Association	(303) 447-0816 x 122
736 Pearl Street			(303) 447-2825 -- FAX
PO Box 1679				paulg at aob.org -- E-MAIL
Boulder, CO 80306-1679			info at aob.org -- AOB INFO
U.S.A.					http://www.beertown.org -- WEB


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Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 10:38:57 -0700
From: Bryan Gros <bryang at xeaglex.com>
Subject: Kunze

Steve Alexander writes (regarding malty continental beer recipes):
>Since you reject what I write, and also fail to mention what style of
>Bavarian beer you seek to brew, may I suggest  you get a copy of Kunze and
>follow the malt bill guidelines for your chosen style there (pp 164) using
>good quality continental malts. 

Steve or whomever:
Can you give me a full reference for this much revered and oft cited
Kunze book? Where might it be available?

I may actually try looking for it soon...

  - Bryan

Bryan Gros
Oakland CA
gros at bigfoot.com




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Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:06:03 -0500
From: "WILLIAM R. SIEBEL" <SIEBELINSTITUTE at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Yeast strain's affect on head retention

Hi Steve Jackson,
Your question: Do different yeast strain's have an affect on head
retention?
Yeast strains per se do not have an affect on head retention. However,
the growth characteristics of a yeast strain can affect foam. If a
strain grows very vigorously, you may have unusual foaming in the
fermenter. As you know, if you foam excessively in the fermenter, this
is foaming potential that is lost. Additional yeast growth could also
mean loss of bitterness units.The more yeast you have, the more of the
bittering compounds will "stick" to the yeast and be lost as compounds
to enhance foam. The last affect could be an early settling of the
yeast, (finished fermentation, floc's out) and if you are treating this
fermentation the same as a fermentation that may not be as rapid, some
yeast autolysis may occur. This is obviously also bad news from a foam
point of view. Yeast vitality ( or lack thereof) can have the same
affect. If your yeast strain was not in very good shape, autolysis could
occur, leading to poor foam.
Choose a yeast strain that suits your purposes.

Cheers,

LYN KRUGER


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Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:13:41 -0500
From: "WILLIAM R. SIEBEL" <SIEBELINSTITUTE at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: CO2 toxicity and it's relevance to small scale brewing

Hi Mark Bayer,
CO2 toxicity is not normally of concern in small scale brewing. But,
bear in mind that this assumes that you are venting your fermentation
vessels adequately and are not building up any back-pressure on your
vessels. Back pressure on the vessel will increase dissolved CO2 levels.
Another consideration is not to "cap" or "bung" the fermenter too soon
in order to carbonate the beer. 1-2 Plato fermentable extract is plenty
to carbonate your beer.If you are looking after these issues, CO2
toxicity should not be an issue.
Happy Brewing,

LYN KRUGER


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Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:30:02 -0500
From: "WILLIAM R. SIEBEL" <SIEBELINSTITUTE at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Yeast Questions

Hi Stephen Alexander,
Your list of questions would require my writing a book on the subject!!
We have a lot of questions that we are trying to answer and
unfortunately attempting to answer all your questions would require too
much time and take up too much space on the forum. I will answer your
first question. 
1. Temperature vs ester
You are correct when you point out that the information contained in
W.Kunze, Technology og Brewing and Malting has some errors on pp
330-331.
A classic way of increasing ester in a beer is to ferment at elevated
temperatures. Ester production is influenced by: the amount of fusel
alcohol, the amount of acyl CoA compounds and the activity of the
enzyme(acyl alcohol transferase) that catalyzes ester production. Higher
fermentaion temperatures stimulate enzyme activity and also increase (as
with any chemical reaction) the reaction rate of ester production.
I think that in any book (particularly if it has been translated ) there
are bound to be a few typing errors or mistakes. You may have noticed
another error on page 330. The ratio of higher alcohols to esters should
normally be in the order of 3:1 NOT 1:3. Mistakes happen!
I do not want to get too commercial, but if you want answers to the rest
of your questions, you may consider taking our Advanced Microbiology
Course (running in August) that covers all these aspects of yeast and
fermentation and more!

Cheers,
LYN KRUGER


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Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 16:49:19 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: sour cherries

>>>>> "Jim" == Jim Liddil <jliddil at vms.arizona.edu> writes:

    Jim> A couple of years ago I looked into sour cherries quite
    Jim> extensively.  One of the few experts left in the US is
    Jim> Dr. Iezzoni.  (www.hrt.msu.edu/faculty/main_Iezzoni.htm).

Dan McConnell & Ken Schramm of the Ann Arbor Brewers Guild visited her
a few years back in their search for Shaarbeek cherries.  She did not
have any, but she did provide Dan with some cherries from a Polish
variety named something like Oblaschinska (spelling probably wrong!)
She thought that this variety was probably the closest one that she
had to what they were seeking.

These cherries are almost black and intensely flavored.  I've got a
mead working with some of them in it (but haven't sampled it yet.)
Dan made a pie with some and said that you could eat only a tiny slice
at a time without overloading your mouth.

Also, Hilltop Nurseries seems to have moved their web site, it's now at
http://hilltopnurseries.com.  I didn't see anything in their catalog
that looked like it was close to Shaarbeek, but they do have a number
of alternatives to Montmorency, anyway.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)


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Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 16:52:42 EDT
From: Radzan1000 at aol.com
Subject: Siebel response to responses on position on HSA

I apologize for my simplistic blow-off on the question concerning Hot Side 
Aeration.  There have been some papers given on the dangers of hot side 
aeration, yes.  Equipment manufacturers panicked and designed new systems to 
help eliminate this so-called problem.  The industry cannot agree on whether 
it is a problem or not.  The most educated and most technical minds in the 
industry cannot agree.  Some major brewers claim it isn't and don't spend 
much time worrying about it.  Some major brewers panic over it and have spent 
megabucks on elimination.  Some major brewers use it as a stripping tool.  
The effects are hard to identify and measure.  

But we are all agreed that cold side aeration is detrimental to beer.  We 
agree that air/oxygen must never come in contact with beer after the 
air/oxygen that we injected into the wort has been used up so quickly by the 
yeast.  We can, and we do, identify and measure the effects of cold side 
aeration every day.  We know and agree that it is so much more dangerous to 
the flavor and shelf stability of our product.  Fermentation produces more 
than 1200 identified organic chemicals.  Some of these when they become 
oxidized produce horrible flavors.  If you would take the time and effort 
that some of you seem to spend on HSA, and redirect the time and effort to 
the elimination of air/oxygen from your product, you will be much better off. 
 That is what I meant to say.  That is what I should have said.

Dave Radzanowski


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Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:01:14 -0700
From: "RANDY ERICKSON" <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: Summer Cap-Off '99

It's a Cap-Off, Jack!

The Stanislaus Hoppy Cappers, from Ceres, California (near
Modesto, roughly half-way between Oregon and Mexico, and
half-way between San Francisco and Yosemite) invite you to
enter Summer Cap-Off 1999, our AHA-sanctioned homebrew
competition.

See http://www.jps.net/randye/capoff99.htm for full details,
forms, and the AHA style guidelines.

Entries will be received between June 12 and June 26, 1999.
Judging will be on Sunday, July 11, 1999.

Call Wayne Baker at (209) 538-BREW or email:
BarleyLW at aol.com

Judges welcome (Please!).  Contact Wayne at the address
above or Randy Erickson at (209) 526-7491 or randye at mid.org




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Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:41:19 -0400
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at vms.arizona.edu>
Subject: proper technique(was sodium propionate)


> Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 23:38:41 -0500
> From: Rick Olivo <strangebrewer at ashland.baysat.net>
> Subject: Sodium Propionate source needed
> 
> Greetings Beer sippers, guzzlers and quaffers of all stripes:
> 
> I am operating a yeast ranch for myself and friends at Skotrat's Brew Rat
> Chat. So far it has been a sucessful idea, but I have been having an
> unacceptably large number of cultures that are showing up with mold
> contaminations. Clearly this is a result of having my yeast lab down in
> the basement where mold is an inescapable fact of life despite my use of a
> laminar air flow hood with HEPA filtering. 

Clearly?  I would suggest that you reevaluate your technique.  Even in a
moldy environment you should be able to do sterile technique with a HEPA
flowhood.  If you have mold it is also likely you have other bugs in your
cultures.  Use of chemical agents (antifungals, antibiotics) is not a
replacement for good sound technique.  So go back an reevaluate how you are
manipulating your cultures.  Look out how you are preparing everything
prior to starting to do things.  Bring all the equipment and media to
ambient temperature and wipe any condensation off all items.  Then wipe
everything down with a something like 70% isopropyl or a quat sanitizer.
If need be work on a towel that is soaked in quat sanitizer and wringed out
well.  Wear latex or nitrile gloves if need be.  

Jim Liddil





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Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 17:23:32 -0500
From: "WILLIAM R. SIEBEL" <SIEBELINSTITUTE at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Pilot Brewery Questions

Our 15 liter, five vessel, steam jacketed brewery was designed by some
engineers at the Hamm's Brewery in St. Paul, MN sometime in the 60's. We
have made some slight modifications to the system (incorporated a
whirlpool vessel rather than the wort settling tank, increased the
copper steam coils on both mash tun and kettle, incorporated a
condensation collection system to measure evaporation rates etc.) but
nothing to drastic. We typically realize a brewing material efficiency
of 95%, however, during various research projects some that have taken
the time, slow run-offs, have realized 98% - 100%. We measure efficiency
by comparing the amount of extract that was available from the grist
bill to the amount of extract that was collected in the fermenter.
Sparging times vary, however, as a rule of thumb I always keep the grain
bed covered with around an inch of water, and keep my total run-off time
under two hours. Lake Michigan water is a great source of brewing water
with slight modifications. My first concern is to remove any aromas
(earthy, chlorine) from the water with a carbon filter. Next due to its'
alkalinity, I acidify with a food grade acid (phosphoric). Lastly to
increase the calcium level (Lake Michigan has about 33 ppm) I add gypsum
or calcium chloride depending on what style of beer I brewing.

Hop utilization is another calculation based on an analysis of a beers
iso-alpha acid content compared to the amount of alpha acid present in
the hops added to the kettle. I'm not familiar with the three methods
mentioned in your question, but I will tell you how we calculate ours.

1 BU = 1 mg iso-alpha acid per liter of wort (sorry about the metric)

25 BU's would = 25 mg IAA/liter

My brew size is 15 liters therefore: 

15 liters x 25 mg IAA/liter = 375 mg IAA

Next convert mg to grams by moving decimal three places to the left.

375 mg IAA = .375 g IAA

Next I divide the required amount of IAA by my utilization which for my
system is 30%

 .375 g IAA/.30 = 1.25 grams of IAA required for target 25 BU's

Lastly divide the 1.25 grams IAA by the alpha acid content of the hop
you decide to use for this beer.

Say Saaz at an alpha acid content of 4.8%

1.25/.048 = 26 grams of Saaz at 4.8 % alpha.

An lastly about the purity of liquid yeast cultures available to
brewers. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. AND MAYBE SOME THINGS YOU DIDN'T.

High extracts & clear worts, Christopher


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Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:03:19 EDT
From: WayneM38 at aol.com
Subject: Re: Schaarbeek Cherries

<<From: Tim Anderson <timator at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Schaarbeek cherries

Gerard Dolmans said this here:
>>>
Hi!
Would the person interested in getting and propagating Schaarbeek 
cherries please get a hold of me.  I was intrigued by your post so I 
put my Father (a retired farmer who lives in the Netherlands) and my 
Uncle (a landscape architect in Holland) on the case, both beer 
lovers which helps.   I have some leads that may be interesting to 
you.  TIA.  
<<<

Please share with the group!  I can't be the only person who cares. 
(I'm not the one who posted the question.)  In that spirit, a gardening
friend of a friend in Belgium said they were "Prunus cerasus L." 
According to my Sunset Western Gardening book, that narrows it down to
any varietiy of pie cherries.  I'm hoping for something more specific.>>


Tim:

First of all, if you travel through these parts, stop in New Glarus, 
Wisconsin and treat yourself to a New Glarus Brewing Co.'s 'Wisconsin Belgian 
Red'. It is an award winning Belgian style ale, with a great cherry taste.

It is made with whole Door County (Wisconsin) Montmorency Cherries.

This is the best of the two sour (pie) cherries that are commonly grown here 
in zone 4 and 5.

They both are listed at my local nursery as:

Prunus cerasus 'North Star'

Prunus cerasus 'Semi Dwarf Montmorency'

Fruit is red skinned and has yellow flesh. Both are self pollinating, with 
the fruit ripening in late July in Wisconsin. It is listed as a heavy bearing 
cherry, good for cooking, canning, freezing and eating.

I am not sure of your growing locations and conditions, but the genus Prunus 
is susceptible to a number of fungal diseases. They need regular tending and 
are not a long lived fruit tree.

If you have a local County Extension Agent in your area, they should have 
publications with details and growing recommendations for fruit trees.

What ever you decide, don't miss that New Glarus Wisconsin Belgian Red Ale! 

Have Fun!!


Wayne
Big Fun Brewing
Milwaukee



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Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:04:09 -0700
From: "Perle" <perle at postalzone.com>
Subject: RE: Carboys are dangerous and related tales of woe 

A quick reminder to those of us who ferment in glass.  I have always been
extremely careful when handling carboys, especially full.  On Sunday night,
one slipped out of my hands, hit the sink, and shattered.  The result:  14
stitches in my foot, 4 severed toe tendons (only 2 could be reconnected),
and 3 weeks in a foot cast.  Fortunately, it only had water in it (I was
cleaning it).  Be careful.

Todd
Cincinnati

I am truly sorry to hear of your ordeal.
I used to brew bare footed just cuz it was easier and more comfy than
brewing with shoes or boots on.  So twice now over the years I have slipped
and shattered carboys with no ill effects......untill last summer when I was
moving a 12 gallon batch of boiling hot wort to an elevated position to make
use of gravity flow thru my  chiller.... my foot slipped and the wort
splashed
onto my wrist and forearm and foot.... as the wort cooked my flesh for the
eternity that it took me to slowly  and carefully set the keg down safely.
Then I went and rinsed my burns.
I even finished the brew session before going to the ER with 2nd and
some spots of 3rd degree burns.    It took 5 weeks before all of the
bandages
came  off and another 4 months before the colour came back and for the hairs
to slowly come back.

Brew carefull.

Joe



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Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 22:05:52 -0500
From: Dean Fikar <dfikar at flash.net>
Subject: Siebel: Break Removal

After the boil in a converted Sanke keg I use an immersion chiller,
whirlpool with a pump, and then drain from the bottom of the kettle
through a SS pot scrubber covered with whole hops which seems to
effectively create a coarse filter while pumping to the fermenter.  The
filtered chilled wort is slightly hazy but is otherwise pretty clear.

For the lighter beer styles is this adequate or should I go the extra
step and rack off the residual break into another fermenter a few hours
after settling?

Thanks,
Dean Fikar - Ft. Worth, TX



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Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 22:54:20 -0500
From: "Mark Kowalski" <mkowalski at proaxis.com>
Subject: 17th Annual Oregon Homebrew Festival Results

17th Annual Oregon Homebrew Festival Results


The results from the 1999 Oregon Homebrew Festival, held May 22, 1999 in
Corvallis, Oregon are in.  Results can be found at
http://www.mtsw.com/hotv/result99.html.

Entries were up about 10% to a record 322 entries this year, and once again
there was some outstanding beer judged at the festival! Thanks go to all of
the judges and other volunteers who helped to make the festival a success.
Special thanks also to the sponsors for their generous donations.

Curt Hausam won the Best of Show award for his American-Style Pilsener and
was also the runner up for Best of Show.

This year's festival was also part of the Master's Championship of Amateur
Brewing (MCAB).  The top scoring beers in certain categories will be invited
to participate in the MCAB competition in early 2000.  MCAB qualifiers can
be found at http://www.mtsw.com/hotv/mcab99.html

Congratulations again to all of the winners - we hope to see you again next
year!



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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 02:42:54 CSTCDT
From: "Anthony & Julie Brown" <brown32 at web1.ecol.net>
Subject: hacker pshorr recipe

I posted a question about wheat strains a while ago, but didn't
get much response so I thought I would post this.

Anyone have a good Hacker Pshorr recipe they wouldn't mind mailing
or posting?  Been looking for something that comes somewhat close
but have been unsucessful so far.  Extract or all grain welcome.

Much appreciated....



Tony B.


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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 06:26:01 -0400
From: David Sherfey <sherf at warwick.net>
Subject: Re: Basement brewery recmmendations

Carm-

I have a basement/garage combination that has the hot stuff in the
garage, and everything else is inside the basement proper.  I like this
arrangement because I can be messy and hose the floor of the brewhouse
out into the driveway and at the same time  be relatively dry, clean and
humidity free inside the fermentation room.  The fermentation room also
doubles as a cellar, and this would be difficult if I was heating the
place up with mashing and boiling.  I brew year round, and it gets cold
at times where I live, and the garage is always warm when the kettles
are going.

Cheers!
David Sherfey
Warwick, NY



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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 06:39:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Arnold J. Neitzke" <neitzkea at frc.com>
Subject: Re: New Brewery & Foam

On Wed, 26 May 1999, Dan Listermann wrote:

> Dave Radzanowski ( radzan1000 at aol.com) of Siebel is open to suggestions
> regarding a verb to describe the collapsing of foam.  May I suggest
> "defobulation."


How about "defoamisgone" :)

_________________________________________________________
Arnold J. Neitzke     Internet Mail: neitzkea at frc.com
Brighton, Mi          CEO of the NightSky brewing Company
- ---------------------------------------------------------




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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:01:56 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Ebullometry Revisited

Dear Siebel and HBDers,

In wine analysis ebullometers usually come with a correction table for wines
with high extract (1). Or in brewing terms high terminal gravity. Actually,
extract in this context is measuring Total Disolved Solids. (Residual sugars,
dextrins, tannins, acids, ect.) The corrections used is for every 1% extract
(*P)you should reduce the ebullometrically determined alcohol level by 0.05%.  A
published table in (1 & 2) relates the gravity (*P) of the wine with the
measured alcohol level to get the % extract. Knowing the  % extract and applying
the proper correction you get a more accurate measurement of alcohol % abv.

Can this method be applied to beer analysis?
And if so, how accurately?

I feel that compared with wines, the differences in beer's lower alcohol levels
and higher amounts of residual extract in --like sweet stouts, porters and
doppel bocks--might produce a significant amount of error. At a minimum they are
off the published charts

Is anyone aware of such a corrections calibrated for beer?
Or, has any research been done in this area?

What say ye????


(1)Wine and Must Analysis by M.A. Amerine & C.S. Ough, John Wile and sons, 1974.
The table with the nomograph for extract as a function of alcohol and starting
Brix also occurs in several texts.  The most recent source is:
(2) Principles and Practices of Winemaking by Roger B. Boulton et al, Chapman
and Hall, 1996.


Phil Wilcox &
Phil DeVore




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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:10:02 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Bavarian Malt bills

You can find a number of good real Bavarian/Austrian recipes on the
Netbeer website.  It has a German and an English mirror.
http://members.eunet.at/beer/

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
Internal : http://zftzb00d/alanmckay/
External : http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/
All opinions expressed are my own.


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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:52:23 -0400
From: "Carmen J. Salvatore" <carmen.salvatore at lmco.com>
Subject: Basement Brewery Response's - Thank You!!!

I'd like to take a small bit of digest space to thank all
those who have sent me information/suggestions about the
construction of my basement brewery.

Carm Salvatore
Sr. Test Engineer
Lockheed Martin Ocean Radar & Sensor Systems
Syracuse, New York



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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:29:31 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Carboys are dangerous

I have found that my 5 gallon carboys fit (tightly) in a regular 7 gallon
plastic bucket.  I keep them in the bucket at all times except to inspect
them after washing.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY



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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:21:19 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: H.B.D.: can we put H.S.A. to B.E.D.?

A seemingly very wise man from Siebel wrote:

> This one is easy.  No, I do not believe that "hot side aeration" is a factor 
> at the homebrewing scale.  When you are required to ship large quantities for 
> great distance and need to have very long shelf stability under conditions 
> over which you have no control, then it becomes a factor.  Relax.  Enjoy your 
> sleep at night.

This seems frightfully similar to something a less wise person (myself)
has said many times.

You might recall, that trying to grab this wiley invisable goon by the
tail, I did a little 'spurment last year with "HSA".

I split a batch and let half go flying throught the air at boiling
temperatures, the other treated gently as pie.  When mature, I sent them
through a "triangle test" (a sort of standardised way to see if there is
a perceptual differnence).

Now I do a lot of these things, and it is frightening to see how things
like: fermenter geometry, air space in a secondary, and sheer volumes of
ferment can make perceptable difference in how fast the beer matures,
and where it ends up.... simply frightening.

I can't pretend to say that I've got a handle on most of these
variables, just that they are variables worth paying attention to, and
which my tasters can pick out.  Sometimes I even just "switch kegs"
between glass fillings without telling folks, and the more sharp
palleted invarioubly notice: "Say, this one has a more pronounced hop
flavour", even when what I have done differently within the batch can be
quite subtle different fermenting conditions.

Knowing this, I was quite careful to keep all other variables exactly
the same for these two beers except the "kamikaze ride through the air".

I have NEVER in a tasting had such a unanimous "Sorry, I can't find a
difference" than I did with this one.

One persom took a "guess" (admittedly) and was right, and then 6 in a
row just had to say "sorry".... This meant that statistically I was
going to have to have 10 people in a row walk throught the door and pick
the right one before there was any "significant difference", and I
decided I had better things to do.

Apparently people who defend the "dreadful HSA" didn't, and my reporting
of this waked not a small ammount of derision.  George DePiro seemed
most adament that "I must have done something wrong", and scrambled for
imagined things that that could be.

Now I am quite SURE that the people at Siebel are not interested in
getting dragged into this most boring of debates, and I think Steve
Alexander has unknowingly hit the nail right on the head...

> These contest entry beer are often bottled with concern, but less control
> over entrapped headspace air than in commercial practice.  They are then
> shipped cross-country with little or no temperature control.

What you are talking about is "homebrew contests" and not
"homebrewing".  You are already defining horrific conditions for beer,
and the reason that most of us brew our own (to avoid subjecting the
dear subject to such things, and allow a much more flexable introduction
of "less stable" tastes). You are defining "commercial beer concerns",
and this wakes whole mountains of categories that are relevant there,
but not to someone who can take care of their product right to the very
moment it is served.

Quite frankly, I've no interest in "home brew contests", and when I've
visited them, invarioubly find the "winners" taste like a "poor cousin"
of a commercial sample that I've already spurned.

> still sleeping uneasily,
> Steve Alexander

As well you may be, if you are shipping out your beer to places that are
beyond your control..... you don't need to spread your insomnia.

Perhaps the people who insist on propagating this worry, could just do a
little "'spurmenting" on their own.  I don't deny that the stuff exists
(I've tasted these cardboard beers, but have no idea how the brewer
managed to achieve them---- I never have, even with my primative
intentional effort).

If you did this, had say, an objective "triangle tasting" to evaluate,
then you could say just "how much O2" and "how long an exposure time"
and after "how much storage time" a percetable difference became
apparent.(?)

This, instead of bringing it up time and again in the most rediculous of
circumstances, and always leading the conversation away from the tonnage
of variables that never get discussed in any detail.

Dr. Pivo


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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 06:27:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Siebel amswer to t d hamann - subject: grist to liquor

Is is too late for follow-ups?

Dave Radzanowski reminded us that the best methods are
the ones that work for us.  And he also spoke from
experience:

"....the breweries that I worked for always 
introduced an amount of water into the mash vessel
before the introduction of the grain....The grain
addition is then somewhat rapid in the same time frame
as the run in of the rest of the doughing in
water...."

This topic has been discussed here before, of course. 
I am brand new to all-grain brewing and contemplating
a 180 F mash liquor temperature to make sure I hit
150-155 F, starting with room temperature malt and
mash tun.  With no experience, I worry about dumping
grain into water this hot.  Of course after heating
the mash tun the system might only be 170F, but still
pretty hot while adding the malt.  If I use 180 F
strike water, get all the malt in in under 10 minutes,
and the temperature stabilizes at 150-155 F, do I need
be concerned with denaturing the important enzymes? 
What are appropiate time windows to work in?

Thanks for any insights
Matt Comstock in Cincinnati

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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 07:48:45 -0700
From: mike rose <mrose at ucr.campuscw.net>
Subject: Siebel, question

Siebel,
    Do you plan on analyzing or quantifying  the questions that have
been presented here? If so, for what purpose?
Is Siebel planing on writing a home brewing book
or offering a home brewing course?

                               Thank you,
                                Mike Rose,  mrose at ucr.campuscw.net



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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:52:24 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Siebel question - pressure fermenting lagers

Hello to the Siebel folks...hope I'm not too late.  I'm sure you now
realize what a pandora's box has been opened.  Anyhow....

There has been some discussion on the HBD in the past regarding the
potential for fermenting lagers under pressure.  The idea being that if you
could control the pressure in a fermenter, you could actually ferment lager
beers at much higher "ale" temperatures.  Some homebrewers have done some
"experiments" (thanks Jeff) that suggest it's not as easy as it sounds.  Is
it possible to successfully ferment a lager beer at higher temp and
pressure without dramatically altering the flavor profile (i.e., tastes
like a lager fermented too warm)?

Thank you for your kind contributions.

nathan in madison, wi




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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:57:02 GMT
From: marnold at ez-net.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Re: hot side aeration/oxidation

On Thu, 27 May 1999 00:18:06 -0400, you wrote:

>Homebrew practices often entails transfer of mash to a separate lauter tun
>and then recirculation (vorlauf) of about 50% of the mash liquor volume to
>get adequate clarity.  Both transfers are often accomplished manually with a
>'scoop' of roughly 1/2 gallon volume and (hopefully) gentle pouring.  The
>mash and boiler depths are typically about 15 inches - so the surface area
>per volume of wort is quite high in our small batches.  These seem like
>great potential sources for oxygen contact and HSA.

Does anyone else recirculate this much? 50%!?! Man, sparging takes long enough
as it is. One of the "happy accidents" I encountered when I tried a modified
version of the Fix mashing regime (rest at 104F, add boiling water to bring up
to saccrification), was that my initial run-off is stunningly clear. I'm not
sure why, the only main difference is that my mash is much looser than normal.
Recirculation on 1/4 to 1/2 gallon is all that is required.

While I'm on that subject, my clarity also improved dramatically when I got my
MaltMill (I previously used a Corona). I don't always agree with what Jack has
to say on this forum, but he does make a fine mill. And no, I don't want to
restart the "my mill is studlier than your mill debate."

>Because of the lack of finish filtration (and often slower fermentation),
>homebrewed beer in my experience is seldom in prime drinking shape in less
>than one month and often requires 2-3 months before it hits it's peak for
>clarity and flavor.

As far as clarity goes--two words: Irish Moss. Is this really that difficult?

As far as flavor goes, maybe I'm weird (OK, I _know_ I am) but I always like
enjoying the flavor changes that occur in very young beer until it reaches it's
theoretical peak. Not coincidentally, my beers usually don't make it to the
third month.

>A quick review of some modest gravity homebrewed ales
>winning national prizes shows an age range of 3 to 9 months.  During this
>period temperature control may be spotty.

That's a rather large assumption to be basing a general truth on, isn't it?

>These contest entry beer are often bottled with concern, but less control
>over entrapped headspace air than in commercial practice.  They are then
>shipped cross-country with little or no temperature control.

Here's the main issue in my mind. If you are a competition hound, then yes, you
will need to be much more careful. Instantly the agitation, temperature, and
other problems that arise with shipping suddenly apply to you. For 90% of the
homebrew produced in this country, this is a non-issue.

>still sleeping uneasily,

Get some rest, Steve. This is one bogeyman that's not worth losing any over.

Matt

P.S. I hope this doesn't sound like a slam against Steve. I didn't mean it to
be. He probably has forgotten more about brewing that I currently know. But I
believe that HSA is one issue where homebrewers need to apply Charlie P.'s
mantra.
- -----
Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club
http://www.rackers.org        info at rackers.org


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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:21:44 -0400
From: "Dave Blaine" <i.brew2 at telebot.net>
Subject: Do you have a Red Hook Double Black Recipe?

I'm looking for something in partial mash to compare to this great coffee
stout.  Also interested in Three Floyds Alpha King Ale.  If you have info
please E mail me at i.brew2 at telebot.net
Thanks a lot!!!



_______________________________________________________________________
TeleBot: World's Premier FREE Voicemail, Fax, Email, and Paging Service
Connecting Everyone, Everywhere for FREE!   http://www.telebot.com


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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:31:45 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Kunze

>Steve or whomever:
>Can you give me a full reference for this much revered and oft cited
>Kunze book? Where might it be available?


Wolfgang Kunze, "Technology of Malting and Brewing" (International Edition,
English translation of the 7th edition)), VLB Berlin, Verlagabteilung.
Germany 1996. ISBN 3-921 690-34-X.

Available from Siebels (I have been told) or direct from the VLB at:
http://www.vlb-berlin.org/english/kunze/index.html  roughly $129+shipping,
but depends on the exchange rate. Shipping is minor.

Thankfully they have English web pages now !

The book is an undergraduate textbook filled with great practical
information (not so much theory).  There are a few minor glitches in the
translation, but nothing serious.  The Subject Index is woefully lacking in
comparison to modern English language textbooks such as M&BS.  My copy is
full of yellow stickies since I can never find things in the index.  I
posted a fuller review - it's in the HBD archives.

Steve





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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 14:23:18 -0400
From: "Russ Hobaugh" <Russ_Hobaugh at erm.com>
Subject: recipe formulation



I am trying to formulate a recipe for an English IPA, and am confused.  I enter
the same numbers into "SUDS" and the "BEER RECIPATOR" on the brewery
website, and I came up with wildly different numbers.  Here is the recipe:
8 oz. British crystal 50-60L
6.6 lb. light malt extract
2 lb light dry malt extract
3 oz challenger 8.2% AA for 60 min
1 oz Fuggles 4.75%AA for 45 min
 .5 oz EKG 5%AA for 5 min.
Dry hop with 1oz of EKG in secondary
Wyeast 1968

For bittering:  Suds gave me an ibu of 126.1! While the recipator gave me an ibu
of 57 Which is correct?

I am looking for a bitter brew with a good hop nose, but I don't know which one
to believe.  By the Suds numbers, I should reduce hops, by the Recipator, I am
right on target.  HELP!  I would love to brew this over the holiday weekend, so
private emails are fine.  TIA

Russ Hobaugh
Goob' Dog Brewery Birdsboro PA




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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:05:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Jackson <stvjackson at yahoo.com>
Subject: Seibel: Decoction mashing

My question concerns decoction mashing only for its impact on flavor.
When decocting only for flavor affects, does it matter at what point in
the mash regime the decoction is done (assuming a single decoction)? In
other words, since the decoction is not being done in order to raise
the mash temp from, say 135 to 154, is it crucial that the decoction
take place before or after the sacc. rest?

I mash in a converted picnic cooler, so increasing mash temps is not
easily done (water additions work, but not precisely). I certainly do
not want to spend much (actually, any) time in the proteinase range, so
my options would be to decoct either following a beta glucanase/acid
rest or after the sacc. rest. In the latter case, the decoction would
bring the temp. up to mash-out temps.

Am I "safe" in doing a decoction following my sacchirifcation rest? I'm
assuming so, since one customarily pauses for such a rest before
boiling the decoction, but I'd like to find a definitive answer.

Thanks.

 -Steve in Indianapolis


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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:02:12 -0500
From: "Brian J. Paszkiet" <bpaszkie at ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Boneyard Brew-Off 2nd Notice

The Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots of Champaign, IL 
would like to announce our upcoming 5th Annual Boneyard 
Brew-Off taking place June 11-12, 1999.  We will be judging 
all 1998 BJCP beer, mead, and cider categories.  This is an 
AHA sanctioned competition as well as a qualifying event for 
the Masters Championship of Amateur Brewing (MCAB) II (see
http://www.hbd.org/mcab for more details).  Points will also be 
awarded for Midwest Homebrewer of the Year.

The main judging will start at 9:00 am on Saturday, June 12th.  
Standard AHA rules apply: we will need three unmarked 
10-16 oz brown or green bottles, with bottle ID forms attached 
to each bottle with a rubber band, a completed entry/recipe 
form, and $6 for each of the first entry, $5 for each subsequent 
entry from the same brewer(s).  Entries must arrive between 
MAY 26 and JUNE 5, 1999.  We will accept walk-in entries 
from judges at 8:15 am on the day of the competition 
(June 12th) as long as the completed paperwork and fee arrive 
by June 5th.

Our special category again this year will be the "No One Gets 
Out Alive High-Gravity Brew-Off".  In this category, we will judge 
any beer with a starting gravity over 1.070 purely on the basis 
of drinkability and octane.  For this category, we only require 
two unmarked 6-16 oz brown or green bottles.  We will allow 
any high gravity style, but if you wish the beer to be also judged 
in another category, you must separately enter it in that category.  
No fortification is allowed.  The winners in this category will not 
be eligible for best of show, but will receive a special award.

Entries should be sent to:
Boneyard Brew-Off
c/o Piccadilly Beverage Shop
505 S. Neil St.
Champaign, IL 61820

For additional information, contact the competition organizer 
Brian Paszkiet (bpaszkie at uiuc.edu or (217) 352-2438(H) or 
(217) 333-9033(W)).

Forms and rules are also available on the World Wide Web at:
http://www.uiuc.edu/ro/BUZZ/contest5.html
Online entry and judge registration are available NOW.

Brian Paszkiet
BUZZ President  



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Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:08:03 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: moldy polyclar

Mold on polyclar ?

I can't say for certain, but some molds can derive energy from plastics not
disimilar to polyclar !  Vodka might make an effective sanitizer.

 -S




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---