---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Siebel response to m. comstock - subject: grist to liquor (Radzan1000)
  Mickey's (WayneM38)
  Siebel: Rising temp in secondary? ("Dr. Pivo")
  Mudgee What? ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  re : Kunze ("Alan McKay")
  Spent grain - pancakes (David)" <drussel3 at ford.com>
  re : Kunze ("Alan McKay")
  New Product Announcement (Eric.Fouch)
  Cherries (Joel Plutchak)
  Fat Tire clone (Henry Paine)
  Dr.. Pivo's HSA Show... (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Czech pils w/ American Malt? ("WILLIAM R. SIEBEL")
  Tart Cherries and Brewing Safety ("Ken Schramm")
  Dextrin Malt ("WILLIAM R. SIEBEL")
  A word of thanks. ("Vintage Cellar")
  malt modification ("WILLIAM R. SIEBEL")
  Siebel answer to f l pauly - subject: hop freshness (Radzan1000)
  Thank You From Siebel (Radzan1000)
  Break Removal - Dean Fidar (Larsonjw)
  Question from Lou Heavner on Kolsches and Alts (Larsonjw)
  Question from Phil Wilcox about Ebullometry (Larsonjw)
  Multi step mash - Tim Martin (Larsonjw)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

2000 MCAB Qualifiers: Boneyard Brew-Off 6/12/99
(http://www.uiuc.edu/ro/BUZZ/contest5.html);  Buzz-Off! 
Competition 6/26/99 (http://www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:09:24 EDT
From: Radzan1000 at aol.com
Subject: Siebel response to m. comstock - subject: grist to liquor

If you noticed I said a portion of the water is in the vessel, not all of it. 
 Then if you are using North American malt you have a super abundance of 
enzyme.  If you have all of your dry grist in a pot and pour 180F water into 
it, what happens to the enzymes at the initial point of contact and beyond?  
Will it really make much difference?

Dave Radzanowski


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:59:03 EDT
From: WayneM38 at aol.com
Subject: Mickey's

<<<Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:07:21 -0500
From: ensmingr at npac.syr.edu
Subject: Mickey's

Thomas D. Hamann asked about Mickey's in HBD 3040. Mickey's is made by
Heileman Brewery in LaCrosse WI. It is 5.8% ABV; 158 cals/12 oz; OG
1.049, FG 1.006. This info used to be available at
http://beertown.org/GABF/97breweries/brewerylist.htm , but this site is
now closed. For alcohol and calories of this and other beers, see:
http://www.npac.syr.edu/users/ensmingr/beer/beerdata.html .

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY>>>

Do to recent mergers/buyouts, Mickey's is soon to be, if not already, a 
Miller Brewing Co. product.
It is my understanding that the Heileman Brewery in La Crosse WI, will be 
closed by next year.

Wayne
Big Fun Brewing
Milwaukee






Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:06:34 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: Siebel: Rising temp in secondary?

Having had such nice and succinct replies to my previous questions, I
thought I'd chance one more that has been a mystery to me.

Locally, people use old underground cellars for fermenting.  In the
winter this is brilliant.  When the cellar is near 0C one can add a 
heat source, and then have everything from your chosen maximum where the
heater is, to O.

As summer approaches (and that otherwise wonderful time, but dreaded by
brewers is soon here),  there comes a point, when the heater is no
longer needed, but the cellar still has different temperature regimes
through it (variation in height, baffled off sections, etc).Finally
there reaches a time where there is no place to move the goods after
primary fermentation, that can guarantee a sustained temperature drop.

This (when the secondary temp creeps up over the primary), emperically,
leads to almost immediate "old barrel" flavours.

This happens regardless of the yeast sort, and despite extra efforts to
maintain anaerobic conditions when transferring the beer. A fully
conditioned beer seems resistant to this.

Since oxidation tastes of all sorts, are such a serious concern to home
brewers (witness the invisable HSA and the ensuent sleepless
nights), I am surprised that I have never heard "any" explanation at all
about why this takes place.

Locally this has become an "accepted truth" and causes not a small
ammount of frantic carboy shifting in the ensueing months, but a
technical explanation about just why "oxidised" tastes are created under
these conditions is lacking.

Got one?

Dr. Pivo

PS We all tend to brew fairly large volumes for the home scale (I knock
off between 120-150 litres at a go, and some do twice that) that it sort
of precludes the obvious "refigerator" solution.


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 21:52:30 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Mudgee What?

    Having just returned from a trip to the bush and the town of Mudgee I
have ploughed through several days of HBD to get up to speed with things. It
amuses me to observe that even the Siebel folk (who were kind enough to
offer their time) had to put a gentle foot down on some of the obsessive
fanatics who seem to miss the whole point of brewing (at least on a non
commercial basis). Let me not get into an argument here. As has been pointed
out to me, my perception of homebrewing (or life for that matter) is far
from the only valid one and allowances must be made for those who seek
refuge in deep science.
    Actually just at this moment my thoughts are with the Perry family who
have suffered such a tragedy. A little girl will grow up and never know her
Dad. For all of you concerned I feel great sadness, as I'm sure we all do.
    I don't know if my tale will be of any interest to those elsewhere in
the world but I have been interested in pursuing a past beer once made in
the town of Mudgee here in NSW. I have found out very little about this
beer, my father recalls having to drink it somewhere just after WW II when
bottled beer in this country was in short supply. His comments, "bloody
awful"! The beer was known as Mudgee Mud.
    In the contemporary town of Mudgee I learnt that originally the beer was
quite good but that a change of water supply brought about its demise and
hence its unfortunate nick name. My interest lies in trying to reproduce
some of the earlier beers made in this country. A friend already has a brew
underway which he calls CAP. For us the "A" stands for Australian and as he
says, this isn't a cap you wear backwards on your head! But how does one go
about producing a beer working backwards from a description of "bloody
awful". Perhaps all my failed experiments -- bits of kitchen wall in the
brew, a litre or two of cats pee, spin the concoction around the brewhouse
and where it lands - let ferment, may just be what I am chasing after all!
This will need to be a beer I can offer to an unsuspecting taster and feel
sure I will get the desired response "bloody awful"
    Can anybody add to this and whilst you're there, are you in the mood for
a Mudgee Mud?

Phil Yates.




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Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:04:34 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: re : Kunze

Here it is :

http://192.129.40.65/cgi-bin/bksuche.exe?aktion=full&opacdb=
VLB+Buchkatalog&lang=&uid=SELECT-27051999-22522001&II=1111913&aktionsort=
on&sortby=KT

Kunze, Wolfgang: 

Technology Brewing and Malting
Vorw. v. Weber, Richard. Ins Engl. bers. v. Wainwright, Trevor
Versuchs- u. Lehranst. f. Brauerei, 1996
705 S., ca. 700 Abb. - 23,5 x 17 cm. - 1350. - Gebunden
ISBN 3-921690-34-X 

189,- DM

Translated from German.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
Internal : http://zftzb00d/alanmckay/
External : http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/
All opinions expressed are my own.

Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:11:37 -0400
From: "Russell, D. A. (David)" <drussel3 at ford.com>
Subject: Spent grain - pancakes

Not being a bread baker myself, but thinking what else could I do with
some spent grain, I had an idea.  I usually have breakfast duty on the
weekends.  To enhance my pancakes, I took about 1 cup of pancake batter,
and added 1 tablespoon of spent grain.  They tasted pretty good, more
flavor, more texture.  Give it a try.


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:15:08 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: re : Kunze

Oh, forgot to mention that I also did a review for the book 
for Brewing Techniques.  You can find my original unedited version
of the review on my web page at :

http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/reviews/technology.html

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
Internal : http://zftzb00d/alanmckay/
External : http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/
All opinions expressed are my own.


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:47:00 -0400
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: New Product Announcement

HBD-
"So, as a close to the Siebel participation in our world, "
Since the Siebel folks are gone, I have untied Fred Garvin.  They say that
when you are deprived of a sense, the other senses compensate.  Well, while in
sensory deprivation (hog tied and ball gagged), Fred did some thinking, which
has led to the newest product offered for sale by the Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
and Male Escort Service:
The Beer Beauty Slide Rule Adjustamentator.
Picture this:  You're at your favorite Brew Pub or Micro, you look across the
bar, and there she is- the most beautiful woman you have seen all night (and
it's late).  You've got all the right moves.  You go to bed with Uma Thurman,
but you wake up with Kyle Druey.  The ol' "She's a ten at two, but a two at
ten" syndrome.  You went home with a "Six Packer"  Or a "Half Caser":  A woman
whose outer beauty has unfortunately been judged by how many beers it would
take from the sober state to make her attractive.  How can such a travesty
have occurred, and how could it be avoided?  With The Beer Beauty Slide Rule
Adjustamentator.  "And don't you wanna know how it works!?"
The basic problem is that the aforementioned beauty assessment was made using
the familiar SAPU (Standard American Pilsener Unit), while drinking at a bar
serving American Pale Ales, 14 grain ales, smokey scotch ales, and various
holiday brews topping out at 8-10% ABV.  Hell, six of these, and I would put
the moves on Kyle myself (and I'm a staunch heterosexual, not that there's
anything wrong with the alternative)!
Now, you see a babe at 1:10am, you estimate her to be an "8" (on the more
traditional beauty scale).  You clear off a space on the bar, pull out the
BBSRA, turn it on, and wait a few moments to let it warm up.  Once the
"Cypher" light comes on, enter the time, the perceived beauty of the intended
tryst (on a scale of 1-10), the number of beers consumed and lastly the
alcohol content in ABV.  Pull the handle on the right side, and watch the slot
machine style three window display.  The number that appears (three
significant figures) will be your effective SAPU conversion.  Flip the BBSRA
over (have a friend help you, the beta version is kinda bulky) and cross
reference the SAPU along the "X" axis against your perceived beauty number on
the "Y" axis.
This is your adjusted beauty index, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being high
(beautiful).
Now this may sound rather cumbersome and time consuming, causing potential
partners to lose interest or you to miss last call, but consider two things:
You may be better off this way, or, you could plan ahead-  Perform the
calculations at home, before you leave:  Estimate the number of alcoholic
beverages you plan to consume, predetermine the acceptable adjusted beauty
index you'll bed, then head for the brew pub with this number written on your
hand or forehead, secure in the knowledge that your good judgement and
reputation will be unbesmirched come the crack of noon the following day.  And
when the chicks see this number on your forehead, they will know you're not
into games and pretenses, and will respond openly and warmly to your honest
intentions.
Hopefully, future versions of the BBSRA will have one of those little tubes to
blow in for BAC, and be hyperlinked with Greenwich Mean Time, so all you'll
need for proper operation is the slightest semblance of concsienceness.  In
keeping with the highest standard of Professionalism and Netiquette
established in this very forum by one of our own (whom I'm sure has paged down
by now), the low, low introductory price of the BBSRA will only be mentioned
to serious, private inquiries.



Eric Fouch C/O Fred Garvin
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery, New Product Development and Launch
Kentwood, MI
"..but you never know, until you know."
                                                     -Dr. Pivo




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Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:59:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Cherries

In Cherry Tree Digest #3042, Wayne <WayneM38 at aol.com> wrote:
>[Montmorency] is the best of the two sour (pie) cherries that are
>commonly grown here in zone 4 and 5.  They both are listed at my
>local nursery as "Prunus cerasus 'North Star'" [and]
>"Prunus cerasus 'Semi Dwarf Montmorency.'"  Fruit is red skinned
>and has yellow flesh.
 ...
>I am not sure of your growing locations and conditions, but the
>genus Prunus is susceptible to a number of fungal diseases. They
>need regular tending and are not a long lived fruit tree.

   Since we're talking cherries...

   There's a big cherry tree growing in my front yard.  Don't
know how long it's been there, and we do zero tending of it.  It
does sound like one of those Prunus guys, though.  Makes great
pies, and I've brewed with them a few times (cherry dark mild
was great).
   How does one go about figuring out what the tree is, how
old it is, how it should be tended, etc?  Um, without getting
obsessive about it?  We've lived there three years, and it
has provided a bounteous harvest the past two years under 
conditions of utter neglect.  The year we moved in it was
so sparsely fruited we didn't even realize it was a cherry
tree, but we had weird winter/spring weather that year.
- --
Joel Plutchak <plutchak at uiuc.edu>
Cheerfully Chewing Cherries in east-central Illinois



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Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:36:43 -0500
From: Henry Paine <hpaine at iglobal.net>
Subject: Fat Tire clone

I'm looking for an extract receipe for a clone of Fat Tire.  Any suggestions.

Hank Paine
Denton, Texas
Henry C. "Hank"  Paine, Jr.
hpaine at iglobal.net


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Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:53:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Dr.. Pivo's HSA Show...

Hi. Last HBD Dr. Pive posted his conclusion (based on certain experiments he'd
conducted) that HSA has NO discernable impact on the flavor of the final beer.

Could you please elaborate a bit on what was done in this test? What do you
mean by aerial gymnastics? Was this done during the mash/sparge/transfers or
did it include the boil as well? The reason I ask is that lately I have taken
to conducting my boils out of doors (thanks to Dave Humes for a great buy on a
propane cooker!). The thing is that, whenever I do this there seems to be a
lesser demon assigned specifically to monitoring my brewing and is charged
with kicking up a tremendous wind whenever I start up the flame. I supopose
the neighbors find it quite the comical sight - my brew kettle/burner
surrounded by a bizzare collection of lawn furniture, trash cans, etc. acting
as windbreaks. At any rate, When I do get to the stage of actually boiling I
like to conduct a good roiling  boil with the lid at least partially cracked,
but even here, with the lid mostly on,  I get the feeling that there is a LOT
of exposure to the air that I wasn't getting when I boiled inside. Yes, I do
understand that the solubility of oxygen is going to be very low but it won't
be zero and with the wind whipping about over the boil It gets me to worrying
that I'm overcoming the low solubility by vastly increasing the exposure to
the air. Do you (or anyone else) have any thoughts as to what extent a good
60+ min roiling wort boil will be oxidized when there is a LOT of air exposure
(remember, I'm totally losing the 'ol headspace/protective blanket of
steam/whatever you want to call it in this set up and have good exposure to
a continuously refreshing, fast moving air supply. 

How much sleep should I be losing???

 -alan in Baltimore.





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Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:08:09 -0500
From: "WILLIAM R. SIEBEL" <SIEBELINSTITUTE at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Czech pils w/ American Malt?

It is my belief that a brewer can duplicate or obtain a (flavor match)
for most any beer style if he understands what his objectives are, how
he can manipulate his brewing process to obtain specific results, and an
understanding of the raw ingredients at his disposal. 

What characteristics of the Czech Pils are you having trouble with? If
it's an increased body or mouthfeel try some unmalted barley as an
adjunct ~5% for a start. Is yours too harsh or astrigent? Check your
water's alkalinity. Czech water is extremely soft. And lastly many are
agressively seeking to duplicate 40+ Bu's in their version. What is lost
is a high amount of diacetyl in many Czech Pilsners that serves to mask
this bitterness under a blanket of body building diacetyl, just below
the concentration that would be perceived as butterscotch. The floral
notes imparted by Saaz hops are a signature of this style. A yeast
strain which is a low sulfur producer would be recommended.

good luck & good brewing, Christopher


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Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:32:53 -0400
From: "Ken Schramm" <schramk at resa.net>
Subject: Tart Cherries and Brewing Safety

On the Tart Cherry front:  

All tart cherries are prunus cerasus, and the variety is specified in the 
third part of the binomial nomenclature (someone explain that one to me).  
All dogs are canus familiarus, and all apples are  prunus malus.  St. 
Bernards and Chihuahuas, Jonathons, Cox's Orange Pippins or Sekai Ichis 
get separated out by the varietal tag.  If the varieties are essentially 
genetically identical, are cross-breedable or graft compatible (for the 
most part - there are exceptions here), or can be cross-pollinated, they 
are considered the same species.  I've kind of gotten the impression that 
people are hoping to find out that Schaarbeeks are prunus lambicus, or 
something of the sort, and that just isn't going to happen.  I know it 
takes the wind out of some folks' sails to find out that Schaarbeeks are 
"just another 'pie' cherry", but tarts is tarts.  

The variety designation becomes the crux of the bisquit.  The "L." at the 
end of prunus cerasus  var. Schaarbeek is therefore critically important, 
and I'd love to know what it stands for.  In the case of apples and many 
other fruit varieties, the varietal designation can be used to sort out a 
specific variety that may over time have been given different colloquial 
names in different regions, but may, in fact, be the same variety.  We 
might have the variety here in a germplasm repository, but not know it 
because we are using a colloquial name with which the ag. folks aren't 
familiar.  

The possible species name prunus agium  has been bandied about, and it 
bears a strong resemblance to prunus avium, which is the name for all 
sweet cherries. It looks like a candidate for typo or mis-identification.  
Is there any chance that this could be the case?

On the safety front:

Completely aside from dropped glass carboys, another concern for brewers 
is the inclination to home-make burners and other devices for brewing in 
the home.  It is purely hearsay, but my older brother recounted a story to 
me of a brewer who burned his house down using a homemade burner device, 
only to have his insurance claim rejected due to the use of a non-UL 
tested device for what they deemed an obviously dangerous task.  Two 
points: 

a) I'd love to hear first hand the stories of anyone who might have had 
this experience, and 

b) If it is true (and it has that ring of "too strange for fiction"), how 
much of a savings was that home made device?  The few extra bucks for a UL 
tested burner system, and the time to assure it's used according to 
manufacturers specs, seem a good insurance policy of their own.

Yours brewly,
Ken Schramm
50 miles East Northeast of Beer-Vana (aka Jeff Renner's beer fridge)

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Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:36:02 -0500
From: "WILLIAM R. SIEBEL" <SIEBELINSTITUTE at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Dextrin Malt

This malt stuff is getting out of hand. Most of the confusion can be
attributed to the maltsters themselves. The malting has no formal system
in place for the classification or naming of malt products. Munich malts
can be marketed as Caramel Malts, Roasted Malts as Munich Malts, and any
malt type can assume any number of cute names (Victory, etc.). What is
essencial for you as brewers is to inquire how a particular malt is
manufactured. Once we determine how a malt is made we can assign it into
one of four catagories. 

There are basically four catagories of malt which most all varieties
would fall into. Base malt 2row, 6row etc. Munich malt (High Dried)like
base malt but kilned to a higher degree. Caramel malt that has undergone
a form of saccrification before roasting. This serves to carmelize the
sugars rendering them unfermentable. Which is what Dextrin malt is. And
roasted malts which are subjected to extreme temperatures. 

Cut open a kernal of Dextrin malt and you will find it to be glassy
rather than mealy or flour-like. These sugars have been carmelized in
production and would lend themselves to add body or fullness to a beers
character. Dextrin sugars on the other hand are the polysaccarides that
are too complex for yeast to metabolize. It is true that a higher mash
conversion temperature will yield a wort with a higher amount of dextrin
sugers. The enzymes utilized to breakdown these complex sugars becoming
denatured at the higher temperatures. 

To Summarize, Dextrin malt does not contain starch dextrins but
chemically modified sugars that are not susceptible to enzymatic
breakdown. Again, there is not much analytical data to support this
subject. 

Hope this helps, Christopher



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Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 14:54:07 -0400
From: "Vintage Cellar" <sales at vintagecellar.com>
Subject: A word of thanks.

Just wanted to express thanks to both Rob Moline for setting up this
wonderful opportunity and to the fine folks at the greatest brewing
instituition anywhere the Siebel Institute.  I hope this becomes an annual
event.  If not,it was certainly a privlege.

Cheers!  (with pint held high)

Kenny Lefkowitz
Blacksburg, VA 


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Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:20:01 -0500
From: "WILLIAM R. SIEBEL" <SIEBELINSTITUTE at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: malt modification

Malt modification is loosly defined as the enzamatic or hydrolytic
breakdown of material in the kernal endosperm from HMW material to
simplier forms. That said I would dare anyone to compare a base malt
grown and malted in North America to one from Europe and find them
similar. 

I assume you are asking for and receiving a malt analysis with each
shipment of malt. What specifications would reveal modification?
Acrosphire growth, Diastatic Power, Soluble Protein, FAN, Friability?
Once conversions between the different systems of reporting this
information i.e. ASBC vs. EBC have been taken into account, I'm sure
you'll come to the realization that German Malt in particular, and we're
talking a base malt (2 row etc.) contains a higher percentage of HMW
material. It is the German brewers themselves that request this low
modified malt for the benefits of 1) better foam properties, 2) German
brewers prefer to control the levels of proteolytic and amyolytic
compounds themselves at their respective breweries. 

I'm sure you can find more information on this subject in the two
three-ring binders you collected on your last visit to Chicago.

Christopher



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Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 16:52:43 EDT
From: Radzan1000 at aol.com
Subject: Siebel answer to f l pauly - subject: hop freshness

Sorry, somehow we missed your first entry.  Unfortunately, I don't have any 
joy for you on an easy way to identify fresh hops.  For brewing on your 
scale, you really have to be satisfied with the integrity of your brewshop 
owner/dealer.  You could send us a sample and we could run an analysis for 
you.  But the test would probably cost you as much as what you pay for a 
year's supply of hops.  Get to know the person you are buying from.  Ask 
yourself if you would buy a used car from him.  Without analysis there is no 
real way of telling how old a hop is or if it has been properly handled and 
stored.  Good luck. 

I also really don't have an answer for you on the Anchor Liberty Ale.  I have 
never had a fresh one.  By the time we get it here in Chicago it is passed 
its prime and has been severely abused.  So I do not know the flavor you 
refer to.  Why not contact the brewery direct?  All brewers love praise and 
most of them are willing to talk about their product openly since they know 
that commercial duplication is very difficult.  Again, good luck.

Dave Radzanowski


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Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 17:53:26 EDT
From: Radzan1000 at aol.com
Subject: Thank You From Siebel

We all want to thank you for the hospitality and the interest.  Over the 
weekend we will be completing answers to questions as presented through 
Friday, so continue looking for them next week.  You have kept us busy.  Come 
see us in Chicago.  Have a good holiday.

Bill Siebel; Christopher Bird; Mike Babb; Lyn Kruger; Jim Larson; Joe Power & 
Dave Radzanowski

An aside to Mike Rose: We are not planning to write another book on 
homebrewing.  You already have plenty of "gurus" and more books than your 
shelves can hold.  We try to keep only one topic in our classes, and that is 
"BREWING."  We expect that the people coming to spend time with us will 
supply the scale.  Come and see. Best to all.

Dave


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Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:37:36 EDT
From: Larsonjw at aol.com
Subject: Break Removal - Dean Fidar

It sounds like you are doing a good job of break and hop removal from the 
wort.  Without seeing your wort or having an analytical measurement of haze 
it is hard to say whether break removal is adequate.  It probably is.  If you 
remove too much break, fermentation will be slowed.  Not enough break removal 
will give a harsh beer.  The easiest test you could do is to make one brew 
with the method you suggested and another without it and compare the two 
beers.

                           Joe Power, Siebel Institute


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Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:37:35 EDT
From: Larsonjw at aol.com
Subject: Question from Lou Heavner on Kolsches and Alts

Dear Lou,

I've only tasted, never brewed, this style which is essentially ale fermented 
with an ale yeast but the cellaring is done following the procedures for 
lager beers.  In- depth discussions of brewing of these products can be found 
in "Designing Great Beers" by Ray Daniels and "Kolsch" by Eric Warner.  Both 
tell you that actual fermentation temperatures vary from 45 deg F up to 70 
deg F and that lagering may be up to four or six weeks at temperatures from 
32 to 50 deg F, depending who is doing the brewing.  Carbonation is being 
achieved by secondary fermentation, injection and/or bottle conditioning.  

I would guess that finding a good set of cellaring conditions will take some 
trial and error until you get the flavor that you are happy with.  For 
example, what low fermentation temperature is your ale yeast happy with?   
Does bottle conditioning give a beer that is superior to one carbonated under 
the pressure of a secondary fermentation? 

Regarding bottle conditioning, a charge of fresh, healthy yeast for the 
bottle usually gives the best results (quicker and cleaner).   Did you notice 
a flavor change when you added fresh yeast for the bottle conditioning?   I 
agree that the concentration of live cells and the temperature make the 
carbonation time longer for your lagers than for the ales that come right out 
of the fermenters.  If the extra time is not a problem and you are happy with 
the taste results then keep up the good work and enjoy.

Happy brewing!      Jim Larson



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Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:37:31 EDT
From: Larsonjw at aol.com
Subject: Question from Phil Wilcox about Ebullometry

Dear Phil

Last week I took an Ebulliometer that we found in the Siebel archives to Old 
Timers Night at the District Milwaukee Master Brewers Meeting.  Only 3 or 4 
people there knew what it was and one of them had used it a lot when he 
worked in the wine industry.  I had only seen one used once when the 
laboratory at the brewery kept telling the brewing department that the 3.5% 
alcohol beer was only 3.2%.  Finally the brewmaster, who also spoke only in 
degrees Raemeur, went to the closet, dug out the Ebulliometer, and "proved" 
that the laboratory was giving out bogus results. 

If you have a mixture of only alcohol and water, you could measure the 
boiling point with the Ebulliometer and look up the exact concentration of 
alcohol as well as all of the other physical properties of the solution:  
specific gravity, refractive index, viscosity, etc.  They will also depend on 
temperature, eg 25 deg C, and pressure.  It is common and often necessary to 
correct the Ebulliometer reading for the barometric pressure which changes 
the boiling point.

For wine or beer ( essentially mixtures of water and alcohol and "extract" ) 
you need two measurements to determine concentrations.  The two could be the 
OG and the AE or the Ebulliometer boiling point and the real extract or any 
other pair of measurements.  You then use callibration curves for your 
measurements to look up alcohol concentration etc.  The relation you quoted  
( - 0.05% alcohol per degree Plato) is a a good example of such a calibration 
and one that we have been looking for.

I have not seen any published values of accuracy of Ebulliometric 
measurements but they are supposedly good enough to differentiate a 3.2 beer 
from a 3.5 beer.  It is very likely that inaccuracies will increase as you 
extrapolate your calibration curves to increasingly different beer styles 
because of the components other than water, alcohol and extract that are 
present in these beers.  It may be necessary to have calibration curves for 
each different beer to obtain the accuracy you are after.  The person who 
used the Ebulliometer for wine said that the published curve he used was 
accurate for very dry wines but not very good for sweet wines.  

I'm not sure why the Ebulliometer was not more widely used in brewing - maybe 
because it is so easy to estimate the same information with two hydrometer 
readings.  A good question and an interesting topic. Thanks for the 
references.

JIm Larson

 


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Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:37:37 EDT
From: Larsonjw at aol.com
Subject: Multi step mash - Tim Martin

Dear Tim,

The advantages of a multi step mash are economic, you can recover more 
extract from the grains, you can use a cheaper adjunct rather than all malt, 
you may be able to filter better and you may be able to deal with 
undermodified malt better.  If you don't need these advantages, don't do it.  
There is one flavor factor that might interfere with the flavor of your beer. 
 The precursor of the spicy, clove - phenolic flavor in some beers like 
weizen is released at lower temperatures in the mash, under 120 F.  If you 
are looking for more of this flavor in a beer, you might want to try a more 
complex mash schedule.

     Joe Power, Siebel Institute


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