---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Heat exchangers (avasile)
  spelling, spelling, spelling ("David Kerr")
  RIMS Controllers (Jonathan Peakall)
  Re: Hopectomy and Witches (Matthew Arnold)
  re: tripel versus belgian golden strong ale? ("Curt Speaker")
  Automatic Mill ("Mark Vernon")
  Palmers new book (mike rose)
  oligosaccharides/thermometers ("Stephen Alexander")
  dean's cold storage ("Bayer, Mark A")
  Putting From the Rough (Eric.Fouch)
  Kudos to Schrier/DWC (Dean Fikar)
  re: Thanks to all the HBD Folks that came to KC (Mark Tumarkin)


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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:07:33 +1000
From: avasile at csc.com
Subject: Heat exchangers

I know most people either use a counter flow or an immersion chiller, but
has anybody build a plate heat exchanger? Isn't that what the big boys use
in their megabreweries? Do the volumes in home brewing make this type of
chiller over kill? Enquiring minds would like to know!

Yours
Tony Vasile
__________________________________________________
CSC Australia
Cnr Nicholson & Oxley Streets, St Leonards NSW 2065
Ph: +61-2-9901-1536    Fax: +61-2-9901-1178    Email: avasile at csc.com.au




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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:09:15 -0400
From: "David Kerr" <dkerr at semc.org>
Subject: spelling, spelling, spelling

Dean reported from the AHA Nationals:
>Al K gave a great talk packed with brewing tips, sharing some of his
>vast knowledge with the rest of us.  For any of you who don't have
his
>book, I highly recommend it (no, Al's not paying me to say this!).
BTW,
>good luck with the triplets Al.

Isn't the term tripel(ets)?

Dave Kerr - stuffing the All Star ballot box for Nomar in Needham, MA



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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:54:30 -0700
From: Jonathan Peakall <jpeakall at mcn.org>
Subject: RIMS Controllers

Howdy,

I posted this question last week, and got no response. I am looking for a
schematic for a RIMS controller. Does anyone even have a line on where I
could look for one? I've done a lot of surfing, and only came up with one
that requires a PC to program, and looks like more dog than I need.

Are RIMS pass? Are there functional and or quality problems with RIMS?
No-one seems to talk much about it here.

Thanks,

Jonathan Peakall

********************************************

"I don't feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from
them. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and
the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves."
 -- John Wayne

********************************************



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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:07:14 GMT
From: marnold at ez-net.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Re: Hopectomy and Witches

Thanks to everyone who responded about my hopectomy (accidentally snapped off
the end of a bine), advising me to leave the bine because shoots would sprout
to take over. They did just that and it is growing very happily.

Later, I had a minor nutrition problem (easily solved) and an aphid infestation
(not so easily solved, but I did it). I was thinking of planting some marigolds
by the bines to discourage future aphids. I have my bines grow up a six-foot
arbor then go vertically across four feet of arbor and about 15 feet of twine
to the garage (I'll spare you the ASCII art). Will a couple of marigolds by the
mound itself be enough to keep aphids at bay?

Also, the bines are sending out some rather strong branches. Should I trim the
ones that are coming out of the lowest four feet of the bine? Should I train
them to grow up the twine?

- -----

>How do we know it's a witch? Does it have a long nose? Will it float?

Firstly, did it turn you into a newt? Did you get better?

Secondly, to determine if it is a witch, see if it weighs the same a as a duck.
If it does, then logically it is made out of wood and therefore a witch. Simple
as that.

For those of you who are painfully confused, pick up a copy of "Monty Python
and the Holy Grail" which will explain everything. Sort of.

Ahh, Python . . .
  Matt
- -----
Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club
http://www.rackers.org        info at rackers.org


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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:09:07 +0500
From: "Curt Speaker" <SPEAKER at SAFETY-1.SAFETY.PSU.EDU>
Subject: re: tripel versus belgian golden strong ale?

Roger Ayotte asks the difference between these two styles (both 
favorites of mine):

The BJCP guidelines don't do a lot to help clarify the difference 
between the two, but the AHA guidelines certainly do.
The major differences are that tripels tend to finish sweet and have 
a noticable phenolic edge to them, while belgian golden strong ales 
tend to finish dry and more alcoholic (the beer, not you :-)

If you really want to see the difference, sit down and taste two good 
examples side-by-side, such as Duvel versus Westmalle tripel.  I 
think you will find some noticable differences in these beers, 
especially in the finish/aftertaste.

I've started to notice that the BJCP and AHA style guidelines are 
starting to look decidedly different, with the BJCP having shorter 
and more generic descriptions, while the AHA seems to provide a 
more detailed analysis of what the style should taste like.  Wonder 
why they are diverging like this...after all, it's all beer!

My $0.02

Curt
BJCP Certified, but starting to wonder...
 
Curt Speaker                         
Biosafety Officer 
Penn State University                
Environmental Health and Safety    
speaker at ehs.psu.edu                   
http://www.ehs.psu.edu
^...^
(O_O)
=(Y)=
 """


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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:43:22 -0500
From: "Mark Vernon" <vernonm at goportable.com>
Subject: Automatic Mill

Alan,  (and anyone else interested)
I have been using an Automatic since my wife got me one for Christmas this
year. I love it. Gives me a very even crush, the preset detents make it easy
to set and forget the settings. I have been doing a two pass crush using the
next to lowest and lowest setting. The only problem I have run into is if
you overfill the hopper it seems to have a hard time feeding the grain....

Mark Vernon, MCSE,MCP+I, MCT
Integrated Software Solutions
VernonM at goportable.com
http://www.goportable.com



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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:07:59 -0700
From: mike rose <mrose at ucr.campuscw.net>
Subject: Palmers new book

John Palmer writes;

> BUT WHAT DOES THIS MEAN??
> Is this a good witch or a bad witch? Or is it just a munchkin and not a
> witch at all?
> How do we know it's a witch? Does it have a long nose? Will it float?

JOHN, Get that book done! You could have a beer brewing
book on the Times best seller list!

                        Mike Rose    mrose at ucr.campuscw.net



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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:06:20 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: oligosaccharides/thermometers

>Lager yeasts do in fact remove all the oligosaccharides

The definition of oligosaccharide includes all sugar polymers with degree of
polymerization(DP)  2-10. In light of this the above statement is nonsense.
Brewing yeast cannot ferment the simple glucose disaccharide 'isomaltose',
much less those of DP 4 through 10.

'The Yeasts, v3, chap4(Brewing yeast).pp 161: "The uptake
of wort carbohydrates was studied by Phillips [...] he showed by
paper chromatography that, with brewery strains of Sacch.cerevisiae and
Sacch.carlburgensis, sugars were removed in the order sucrose (first)
[..list..] and maltotriose (last), while maltotetraose and more complex
dextrins were not attacked.  Unpublished observations by the author
[C.Rainbow] on commercial fermentations with top yeast confirm these
conclusions."

The Phillips reference is to JIB v61, pp122-126.

===
Thomas Murray  mentioned ...Surplus Center (800) 488-3407

These guys have a lot of electric motors and sundry electrical surplus
equipment, some pumps, valves, pressure release valves, fittings.  Quite a
bit of their catalog is hydraulics, but the rest is interesting to
DIY-HBers.  I recently picked up several ~5 inch stem digital
thermometers -40F to +300F w/ 0.1 degree resolution. for $10 each there
(#21-1228)- decent accuracy too.  Happy customer, no affiliation.

 -S




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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:17:04 -0700
From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com>
Subject: dean's cold storage

kullaktuv hoambrue konnshuntz_

dean wrote:

>I will store my finished beer (ales and lagers) in this freezer in
>hopes that i can increase the shelf life<snip>
>My question is what temperature should I store the finished (always
>unfiltered) beer at?<snip> I figure at cellar temperatures good things
>would happen with regard to yeast activity and beer maturation, 
>particularly with ales.  However, any staling reactions
>would certainly take place at a slower pace at 32 degrees.

first, i am assuming by "finished" you imply already carbonated.

my opinion is that with standard gravity ales, og's less than 1.050 or so,
there is a point at which the "good" yeast activity and conditioning stops
and deterioration sets in.  if you open a bottle that's been kept at cellar
temps, and it tastes good to you, you can best preserve that moment in the
beer's life by turning the temp down to 32 deg f.  with lagers it's a
no-brainer.

michael jackson's opinion is that "no beer likes extremes of temperature".
he was referring to keeping ales at very cold temps. i don't imagine a beer
in his household remains unopened for more than a few days, either.

very strong ales might be the ones you want to give extended storage at
cellar temps, but if you only have one freezer you're probaby not going to
be able to use it per the above advice unless you brew strong styles
exclusively.

one of the things i remember from george fix's recent bt article on cold
side deterioration was that temperature was a more important consideration
than the amount of air in the headspace.  in fact, i think he cited some
example where they took a beer with a large amount of headspace air, at very
cold temperature, and it held up better than the same beer with a much
smaller amount of headspace air that was kept at a higher (but not
exceedingly high) temperature.

the best advice for "finished" standard gravity beer is to keep it cold and
drink it quick (i think dave miller wrote that).

i would recommend that you try storing a particular beer at both temps and
periodically evaluate it side-by-side to see for yourself what the effect
is.  your experience may be different than mine.

brew hard,

mark bayer
stl mo


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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:46:00 -0400
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Putting From the Rough

HBD-
Fred and I took the Bent Dick Workshop on the road for a brewing exhibition:
We brewed 5 gallons of an American Wheat during our department's Golf Outing.
The original plan was to strap the 10 gallon Gott on the golf cart in lieu of
clubs, but due to an emergency trip to the proctologist's office (Fred STILL
won't speak to me), we got a late start, and left the Gott mash tun in the
back of my Rodeo.  Good thing, actually, as I'm sure we would've thrown the
cooler no fewer than 9 times, due to irresponsible golf cart driving behavior.
 I threw Fred at least 8 feet out of the cart and onto the 10th tee once.
Anyway, we doughed in in the parking lot, 6# pale ale malt, 5# wheat malt, .5#
carapils and .25# 80L crystal into 4 gallons of water for a mash in of  about
150F.  The strike water was 165F when we left the lab, and it took nearly an
hour to get to the golf course.  Lacking a mash mixer or my trusty RIMs, I
stirred it all up with my 9 iron.  Fred was ticked at me again, as I wouldn't
let him stir the mash with his prosthesis.  After all, it was a public place.
After mashing for about 5 hours, we transported the operation to a nearby
park, where we drained off the sweet wort, fired up another 5 gallons of
sparge water, and collected 5 gallons of spargent.  We FWH'd with .5oz of
homegrown Northern Brewer, and hit it with another .5oz HGNB at 60 minutes.
We boiled it down to 4 gallons with lots of interest from the joe-six packers
in the department whilst handing out samples of our homebrewed beers, meads,
ciders and wines.  We cooled in a large garbage can filled with creek water
and ice.  A rehydrated 14 gram packet of
Edme was pitched to the fermenter.
Upon completion of fermentation, the beer will be diluted up to five gallons,
racked to a corny and keg conditioned for dispensation (no Kyle, not
dispensationism) at our departmental canoe outing in August.  If we don't get
fired for misuse of the Internet before then.  Then we won't share.
This way, we feel we can let our co-workers participate in the brewing and
consumption of a homebrewed product, increase their interest, and get more
paying tourists through the Bent Dick (ouch!)
But seriously, we took no measurements other than volume estimates, no pH, no
SG's or nothin.  Hopefully we will show interested parties that if you can
brew in a park, you can brew in a kitchen.

Canoe outing beer reception information will follow in August.

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood, MI
P.S.- In order to protect the innocent, the persona of "Fred" in this report
was actually a composite of the actions of at least three persons.  Other than
that, this account is almost totally factual and accurate.  I just didn't want
to get Jason and Todd in trouble.




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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 19:16:48 -0500
From: Dean Fikar <dfikar at flash.net>
Subject: Kudos to Schrier/DWC

Just found out that you can enter the lot # on your bag of Schrier/DWC
malt and get the specific lot analysis on their website:
http://www.schreiermalt.com.

This is great news for all serious all-grain brewers and will make
specific tailoring of mash programs much more feasible in the future.

We, as homebrewers, have been asking for this for a long time and now at
least one maltster has given it to us!   Now I plan to use DWC malts
even more in the future.

Dean Fikar - Ft. Worth, TX



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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:45:13 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Thanks to all the HBD Folks that came to KC

I'd like to echo some of Dean Fikar's thoughts and add a few of my own.
John Weerts and the KC Bier Miesters did a fantastic job on the AHA
convention, supported by the other local clubs. I'm sure it was a
tremendous amount of work, I rarely saw John at the convention when he
wasn't busy doing something. And that goes for Paul and Brian as well.

This was my first AHA convention, so I can't compare it to previous
ones, but this one was a great success. Lots and lots and lots of great
beer, and great people to drink it with. It really makes you feel part
of a larger homebrewing community. And the HBD people just may be among
the best part of that community. I really enjoyed partying with and
getting to know more of you.

It is notable that this convention was basically put on by the clubs,
with only a supporting role taken by the AHA staff. This is in keeping
with some of the things Paul and Brian have written here in the HBD,
about the increased role of the membership. I know that some of you have
bad feelings about the AHA, and I'm sure you have good reasons for them,
but I think that things have changed at the AHA. People like Paul,
Brian, and Jethro (as well as a lot of other Board of Advisor members)
are certainly folks that we can talk to and expect to be responsive to
our wants. There may have been a lot of bad history, but it's time to
get over it. That said, I would be interested in what the old issues
were - not the Charlie makes too much money thing, but whatever other
problems you saw (or see) with the AHA. But mainly with the perspective
of seeing what we can do to solve things, or how we can improve them. I
don't mean to sound like an apologist for the AHA, I'm not even sure
what all the old issues were. But I do feel that things are changing for
the better.

For example, I do know that there were problems between the AHA and the
BJCP. Paul and Brian are aware of this, but they are doing their best to
make things better. There have been problems with getting judge points
reported and recorded. The responsibility for this is shared, but Brian
has said he will make it a priority and do all he can to dig up any old
points records in the AHA files. One of the seminars I attended at the
convention was on the work being done on new BJCP style guidelines. The
style committee (including Al K) has been putting in a lot of work on
this, and in fact, the new style guidelines are almost done. The new
format is going to be based on the BJCP judging forms. Each style will
have information on aroma, appearance, flavor, mouthfeel, etc. This will
give a more complete picture and information of the styles, helping us
as brewers to brew to style for competitions. And it will also provide
judges a more accurate basis for evaluating beers in competitions. This
will be a great improvement over the current guidlines, which are
incomplete and spotty. Some styles have a lot of info, others almost
none. The other point is that the AHA will be adopting these guidelines
as well. This is indicative of the new (or maybe renewed) cooperation
that is developing between the two organizations.

Bottom line is that I feel the AHA is changing for the better, and if we
help, this trend can continue and improve. I have seen comments that the
AHA doesn't offer much by way of membership benefits. Well, the AHA
conference and the NHC are certainly worthwhile benefits, and actually
you don't even have to be a member. Anyhow, enough said - it was a great
party and I'm really glad I got the chance to be part of it.

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL



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---